Hello!

I've decided to spend my lazy Saturday digging out info on this topic. When googled I either got Phil's tribute sites, a Wikipedia link or news regarding the famous murder case.

Anyone got any useful links/articles?

Hi, I can understand why for some people this man has become a legend, well, I try to. But his records sound absolutely disgusting to my ears, and before anyone goes into the old "well back then it was revolutionary" routine, so what ? They sound over-produced, over-arranged and over here. He was just a chancer who got on a bandwagon, got pissed and made a few bob in the process. His records actually make me physically ill when I listen to them, a thick, distorted, "lets use everything simply because we can and have the budget if we don't spend it on Coke and Brandy method of recording" The 50/60's produced some great music, but from him, I don't think so. Witness John Lennons rock and roll tribute album, Phil Spector dissapearded with the tapes from that session !!!! and tried to rip him off, hiding studio rates and charges for the musicians he used. He will go down in musical history as far as I'm concerend as just another chancer.

Tony.

McCartney hates his guts for the schmalzy bollocks Spector inflicted on "Long and Winding Road" and other tracks from Let It Be.

Very much yesterday's man, I fear.

And he does have this wierd thing about shooting people in the studio...

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

HAHA! Mcartney needled with someone for being schmalzy. If Spector pissed him off then he's alright in my book.

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Stuff what I done

Quote Sle:

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HAHA! Mcartney needled with someone for being schmalzy. If Spector pissed him off then he's alright in my book.

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Absolutely. It's not as if McCartney improved things with his awful remix/reissue/pension fund of "Let It Be".

He does have a nerve.



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http://www.myspace.com/neverrevolution

Hi Yes, I agree, "Long And Winding Road"....after all the Spector stuff was stripped away it was beautiful, I agree with Paul on this one, a much improved mix! The basic message of the song was obscured by Spectors arrangement, for what reason ????????????????......Jesus.

Take care,

Tony.

Don't try and hijack this post into a "lets slag off McCartney routine" what you think about him is up to you. If you have anything positive/negative to say about Spector say it in a way that doesn't have a "he's more schmaltzy than him routine" kids playground stuff. McCartney did have something to say, Spector was a mear imitator, and specialised in impressing people with his "bizzare " antics, people were easily impressed in those days, and he new it.

Tony.

My only interest in this topic is the fact that he had a signature sound and since I'm into recording I'd like to expand on my sonic arsenal. I may never do a complete song the Spector way but I may find a good use in places.

So, any help?

I'm frankly staggered by what I'm reading in this thread ...

The Righteous Brothers " You've Lost That Loving' Feeling" - the greatest pop record of all time ...
Ike and Tina Turner "River Deep Mountain High"
The Crystals " Da Doo Ron Ron"
The Ronettes "Be My Baby"

I was under the impression these were great records - maybe I was wrong ...

i find the most useful technique is listening to the records...

and expirementing...

there was a british band that recently (well just before he shot that hot chick) had him re-record their british record for american release...

was it star sailor?

Hi Bill C, well, they may be great records for you, and good luck to you ! But my point is that they arn't a "universal" great in my opinion. I hate them, it is possible ! and thier are probably loads of others out there that dislike them too, just like their are people who hate Beethoven etc, I respect that, I'm just expressing my own personal taste, it's just my oppinion. I think you have to realise that history and hype have a lot to play in the role of what is not and what is great, the messages that are fed to us, you have to disconnect from them, and be like someone from another planet to really get a handle on what is "important" in our culture. I didnt mention the words good or bad, but you have to have a standpoint, a sense of judgment, which I think Phil Spector lacked in droves.

Tony.

Oops, just a bit of friendly debate. Spector is nuts, there's no denying that, but he certainly made waves. What if all records were "Perfect"?

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Stuff what I done

...that starsailor album still sucked

Christ, he did, didn't he.. Oh well..

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Stuff what I done

Quote arpangel:

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Hi Bill C, well, they may be great records for you, and good luck to you ! But my point is that they arn't a "universal" great in my opinion. I hate them, it is possible ! and thier are probably loads of others out there that dislike them too, just like their are people who hate Beethoven etc, I respect that, I'm just expressing my own personal taste, it's just my oppinion. I think you have to realise that history and hype have a lot to play in the role of what is not and what is great, the messages that are fed to us, you have to disconnect from them, and be like someone from another planet to really get a handle on what is "important" in our culture. I didnt mention the words good or bad, but you have to have a standpoint, a sense of judgment, which I think Phil Spector lacked in droves.

Tony.

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I don't think one has to *like* something to recognise its quality. As a producer I think Spector clearly DID have a standpoint, a sense of judgement - a vision if you like.

Hi archdake,

in an attempt to steer this thread back on course.....

An interesting reference for all things Phil Spector (well, one chapter, at least), is the book 'Hal Blaine and The Wrecking Crew' - not something from the 'Boys Own Adventures!' novel series, but the biography of Hal Blaine, session drummer extrordanaire in the 60's/70's and Spector's first call drummer. Goes into detail about the sessions behind the hits, recording techniques, gossip and so on. All written in a bit of a folksy, 'aint-it-great-we-were-all-buddys' manner, but good nonetheless. (ISBN 0-918371-01-5)

In no particular order, things he mentions that might be of interest - 8 to 10 people playing castanets, shakers, jingle bells, bongos, congas, puili sticks, slap sticks, tambourines, to get the percussion 'texture' right.

Echo/reverb was the only effect they had in those days, so it was exploited to the full.

Doubling / tripling or more of key instruments: Acoustic & electric bass / nylon string, steel string, semi acoustic and electric guitars / 2 or 3 pianos + rhodes & harpsichord / 2 or 3 drum kits - all, respectively playing the same parts.

Using country and western musicians to bring a new/different feel to what the LA session players (mostly raised on jazz & swing) were doing.

Seems like one of the keys to the Wall of Sound was to get a lot of people doing the same things at once, but with differing instruments and techniques. Mic positioning and dynamics were vital, as everything was one take - no overdubbing then. [ ****** ] hot musicianship and the freedom for players to augment their parts if they had a better idea to what was written by the arranger.

If you've not already got it, grab 'Back To Mono', the Phil Spector boxed set - nothing specific in terms of recording techniques, but a lot of background to the ideas driving the songs.

You might have more luck with your web search if you look for some of the key musos associated with him - check out Hal Blaine (drums), Jack Nitzsche (arranger), Carol Kaye (e.bass), Tommy tedesco (gtr), Larry Levine (engineer).

Arpangel - you accuse Spector of being a mear (sic) imitator, and jumping on a bandwagon. I'm curious to know - exactly who was he imitating and which bandwagon did he jump on?

Quote arpangel:

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Hi Bill C, well, they may be great records for you, and good luck to you ! But my point is that they arn't a "universal" great in my opinion. I hate them, it is possible ! and thier are probably loads of others out there that dislike them too, just like their are people who hate Beethoven etc, I respect that, I'm just expressing my own personal taste, it's just my oppinion. I think you have to realise that history and hype have a lot to play in the role of what is not and what is great, the messages that are fed to us, you have to disconnect from them, and be like someone from another planet to really get a handle on what is "important" in our culture. I didnt mention the words good or bad, but you have to have a standpoint, a sense of judgment, which I think Phil Spector lacked in droves.

Tony.

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Does it not occur to you, Tony, that people might think just like that about Paul McCartney?

Before you harangue people about their views on McCartney, consider your expressions about Spector.

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http://www.myspace.com/neverrevolution

Reid, thanks for your help mate!

Tony and all the others, this thread got rather interesting. Never thought I'd be the cause of a heated thread the good ol' SOS way!

Hi, my intention was not to give the impression that I'm trying to tell other people what to like, this is a personal view. The McCartney angle I thought was getting of track, I'm not a big McCartney fan either, and din't want to spend all evening defending him.
The Texture of The Spector sound I just find awful, all those tambourines and castanets, muddy basses and boomy drums, anyone can have "a sound" but you do have to ask yourself is it worth having ? I suppose it is the exact opposit of what I want in a listening experience, which are beautifuly clean textures, un-cluttered messages that are not obscured by over production, superbly recorded, sensual, detailed, like a one-to-one conversation with someone you love, not a bar-room shouting match at full volume with no subtleties whatsoever and Sky Sport on in thew background and with a door open onto the Edgware road, actually, I think I would rather be in that pub than listen to Spector.

Tony.

Arpangel,

just for the sake of being provocative - can you back up your statements about Spector being an imitator and jumping on a bandwagon, with some substance?

Spector sold records - lots of them!!
Not bad for someone with a "crap" sound, eh?

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Hi folks,
Richard Williams' 'Phil Spector - Out of his Head' (Omnibus Press 0-7119-9864-7) has the full story. Despite what others have written here, Spector re-wrote the book on recording, dispensing with restrictive practices amongst record companies, and doing everything (writing, arranging, recording, distribution) all on his own. His basic claim to fame in recording was to stretch the technology as much as possible. He's widely regarded as taking a Wangerian approach to recording with the biggest sound possible, the layered instrumental lines, choirs of backing vocals and deliberate use of distortion and reverb to create the trademark textures. Two of his trademark sayings were 'Tomorrow's sound today' and 'Little symphonies for the kids'.
Don't underestimate the influence he had in the early 60s; he knew the Beatles and Stones very well, Brian Wilson was influenced by his techniques in the approaches to Pet Sounds (right down to instrumental layering and doubling, and Jack Nitzche's arrangements), and his influences can also be traced to Bruce Springsteen. Also, bear in mind that records in the early 60s were mostly played in (by today's standards) crap radiograms in mind expanding mono with a VERY limited frequency response. The whole idea was to make the biggest possible sound come out of the limited technology of the time.
By 1966, with the failure of 'River Deep Mountain High' in the US, it was all over for hiiim, and he gradually started going nuts. Of course, his arrangements for 'Let it be' were rubbish, but don't let his later disasters blind you to the innovative sounds that he pioneered.
As for the criticism of over production: IMHO there's no such thing. It's either well or badly produced, whether a wall of sound, or two guitars and a kazoo, and I've heard good and bad versions of both approaches. The whole point about a wall of sounnd is that it needs more care in the balance, just as it would with a 120 piece symphony orchestra.
As for slagging off Sir Paul, when you've written as many classic tunes as he has, then you can criticise; until then, I await your best sellers.
Best wishes,


Dave.

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Lots of Ataris which keep on going, 12 Kurzweil 1000 modules, a bunch of hardware synths. Still recording to tape -the old ways are best.....

Edited by David Etheridge (23/10/05 03:00 PM)

Hi, yes, their were other people doing similar things, Jerry Wexler, Tom Dowd the engineer, and lets not forget Phil Ramone. And also lets not forget all the great session players that sometimes carried pre-Madonna producers. As for selling lots of records, quantity does not equal quallity, Joe Dolci sold lots of records, so did Max Bygraves.
Look, I don't like the guy, full stop, I'd rather listen to the sound of finger nails scraping a black-board.

Tony.

Quote arpangel:

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Hi, yes, their were other people doing similar things

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Arpangel, that reply's so vague it's almost apologetic.

When you say 'doing similar things', are we talking along the lines of, what....being in a recording studio with some musicians? Using the 12 notes of the scale? Having a rhythm section and orchestra play in time together?

You're blowing hot air, mate. Fair enough, you don't like the sound of what he put his name to, but as far as convincing anyone that he was no more than a chancer that got lucky? Nah - try again.

Quote arpangel:

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..session players that sometimes carried pre-Madonna producers.

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Prima donna, shurely?

You *were* being ironic, right?

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Stuff what I done

The people I mentioned set up studios that gave them the potential to expereiment with accoustics, places that had a unique sound, echo chambers etc, Phill Spector was doing this but just on a larger scale, and no, I wasn't being ironic I just can't spell.

Tony.

Quote arpangel:

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The people I mentioned set up studios that gave them the potential to expereiment with accoustics, places that had a unique sound, echo chambers etc,

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That's it?

That's the foundation of your assertion that Phil Spector was a chancer who jumped on a bandwagon and got lucky, and was a mere (and one assumes, lesser) imitator of others?

Jesus wept.......

Quote arpangel:

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As for selling lots of records, quantity does not equal quallity...

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This thread is quite astonishing for the sheer range and excellence of its ludicrous non sequitirs. Consider...

Selling lots of records = quantity but not = quality.

If you think about it (always sensible) you could put anything in that second clause:

Selling lots of records = quantity but not = a banana.

That's right, selling records just means selling records to people. That on its own is the point. The fact that it doesn't meet your own quality criteria is f. obvious (unless you happen to like all records that sell over a specific quantity, an unlikely and unconvincing possibility).

Although you claim to simply 'dislike' Spector, in trying to provide evidence of his inferiority you're going further. If it was mere personal preference, no evidence one way or the other would make any difference.

And in any case, you're wrong.

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www.bemuso.com

Quote:

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Although you claim to simply 'dislike' Spector, in trying to provide evidence of his inferiority you're going further. If it was mere personal preference, no evidence one way or the other would make any difference.

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Well put Rob...

There is no doubt that he had significant influence and contributions to the recording world, and like him or not, his mark on the industry is really not open for debate.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Phil Spector is an inspiration to me. No one has ever made a bigger sound than River Deep Mountain High or more intense than You've Lost That Loving Feeling. His control of dynamics was amazing.

He wasn't just a producer, either - he wrote or co-wrote many of the songs and developed the artists.

His influence is everywhere in pop music - Brian Wilson revered him, as did the Beatles, covering many of his records in their early days.

For some great Spector, try Dion's 1970s album that Spector produced. Two greats of the early 60s getting together again after they'd both gone crazy producing an album with several stunning tracks (and a couple of duds).

I can't believe there are producers/arrangers who have nothing to learn from him.

I really like his stuff. Thought he was bloody brilliant. The sound of a generation. But i do get a bit nervous when he gets his heater out.

Hi, so their are things on this forum that are simply "not open to debate" ? not for me mate, nothing is beyond debate.
My defense has put togehter a list of people that Spector clearly ripped off.....The Devil, Moses, and Cecil B DeMill.

Tony.

Quote arpangel:

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Hi, so their are things on this forum that are simply "not open to debate" ? not for me mate, nothing is beyond debate.
My defense has put togehter a list of people that Spector clearly ripped off.....The Devil, Moses, and Cecil B DeMill.

Tony.

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Tony...I didn't mean to be rude...sorry if it came off that way.

As you mention, *everything* is open to debate, I guess what I meant is that it is pretty much universally accepted that he made *some* form of an impact, whether good or bad, ripped off or original, inspirational or otherwise...

Now as Rob mentions, your *reaction* to his work is completely open to debate in my opinion, and if you think he ripped off others and copied their work, that is also open to debate, and you are not only welcome to post you opinions, but as a contributing member to this forum, have an *obligation* to voice that opinion. (once again, imho...)

What bothers me to no end are those that disagree with a posters *opinion* and then flame them for expressing it.

(But, just so you know, you are *completely* wrong, and an idiot for thinking that way!!! ) Hehe...

And now, a word from our sponsors...

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Yes......and.... isn't he under suspician at the moment ? for maybe murdering a girl who was found dead in his apartment for some reason, he maybe picked her up in a bar a couple of years ago ? so the press said anyway. God forbid the press for suggesting anything here, the "all seeing great one" may have lawyers scanning the aether for evidence against them.

Tony.

(don't even think about it Phil, I have a new bullet proof vest)

Nothing is "universally accepted" if you believe that you may as well join the rest of the sheep that are desitned to follow, not lead. No one is beyond criticisme, do you respect anyones opinion about your work ? big mistake. The only person who should be yuor judge is yourself, respect no one, after all, that's what Spector did, I hate him, but he ceratainly wasnt a sheep. This philosopy of total non- compromise and ruthlesness is the only one that will get you anywhere in this world.

Tony.

Quote arpangel:

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Nothing is "universally accepted" if you believe that you may as well join the rest of the sheep that are desitned to follow, not lead. No one is beyond criticisme, do you respect anyones opinion about your work ? big mistake. The only person who should be yuor judge is yourself, respect no one, after all, that's what Spector did, I hate him, but he ceratainly wasnt a sheep. This philosopy of total non- compromise and ruthlesness is the only one that will get you anywhere in this world.

Tony.

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Chill dude. You react without reading the post.

I *never* said he was beyond critism, in fact, I said quite the opposite if you re-read my post. I said that he "made an impact", whether good or bad is not the point, only that he has had influence, that's all.

I never said I liked him, I never said I hated him, only that he was influential. He is obviously influencing this discussion, right? There you have it. "Influence".

Now go take a chill pill, have a beer, and call me in the morning.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

From the TV footage ive seen. Pictures and commentary anout his methods. He certainly comes across as a bit of a Napoleon. But the music he produced gets me right there.

Its really annoying because i saw or read something recently about him. And i just cant remember where. But it went into his methods in some detail. Im sorry to the original poster. But i just cant get the neurons to re-fire in that bit of the memory. Still working on it though. Dont hold your breath. Imve only got three or four left!

Is he the one that looks like the Hair Bear Bunch?

I beleive he did have a hair bear bunch phase, yes.

not wanting to get in on the was he any good or not debate...

am i right in thinking that spector pioneered the whole 'sub grouping' approach to mixing, i.e mixed the drums then put them down to two faders then compressed the hell of them?

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http://www.breakbeat-cafe.net - breakbeats, sample cds, free delivery worldwide

Hi all, OK, the most important thing about pop music is the use of echo, it's not part of the music, it is the music. Phil Spector realised this, he looked at what was currently popular and thought, I know what I'll do, I'll take the same musical ideas and just ad more echo, a lot more, the result was a string of hits, and people have been doing the same thing ever since. Forget the music, and musicians, echo is the most important element in popular music. So if you want to record a hit just look at what's currently at "the cutting edge" and is succesful, take the same musical ideas and just add a lot more effects, you may have a hit on your hands. Effects makes things that are "now" sound like they are from the "future" that's why it is important to have the latest and greatest effects processors, essential tools. Talking of which, all of those black boxes in your rack, with all those evocotive and exotic preset names like "Cumulo Nimbus" "Star Curtain" "Blue Yonder" etc, they are only echo boxes, plain and simple, their is no effect on Earth that isn't a time domaine process, or echo.
This whole view may seem incredibly naive, but I think it strips away all the mystique of record production in one swoop. You can apply my theory to anything really, look at all the philosophies and religions that have sprung up around life, what you have to say is forget all that, it goes like this....you are born and you die, simple ! and everything in-between is just to keep us occupied.

Take care !

Tony.

Angel, I read mostly all your posts. Find your ideas interesting. And your writing style entertaining.

However in this case I have to say. I think you are talking utter bullsh!t..bullsh!t...bullsh!t...bullsh!t.

"their is no effect on Earth that isn't a time domaine process, or echo."

Come one Tony, you seem to be taking this debate a bit personally, to the point of irrationality. Chill a little!

What about flanging (I mean real flanging, dragging the edge of the tape reel)? What about say the entrance to "Breathe" on Dark Side of the Moon, which is a massive piano chord allowed to decay for 60 seconds and then played backwards over the "heartbeat" effect (which in turn was a kick drum wrapped in woolly blankets)? Hell, one of the GM sounds is called reverse cymbal! What about using faders on mixing desks to trigger "sample" e.g. 10cc doing the "aahs" on I'm Not In Love?

People have been doing creative things as effects forever, not all of them reverb based!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Hi, Flanging is a time based effect, you are slowing one reel down "in time" against the other, digital flanging is a delay circuit with a delay time of about 10-20 ms or less with a a lot of feedback, these are time domain effects. Slowing things down, reversing things, you are playing around with the perception of musical events over time. All of the effects contained in a typical mid range box today are all time based, without exception, using digital delays, from straight reverb to pitch shifting to resonant filters, more or less everything.
I have a fundamental problem, I've never liked mainstream pop music, of any era, and especially dislike songs, instrumental tracks are always more interesting to me. I dislike structure, form, rhythm, harmony etc. When listening to a piece of music I always hear the texture, that's what's interesting to me. I never sit down and conciously listen, there is no point, music always sounds better when doing another activity, when I'm not concentrating. I love sound, not music I guess. I have been playing free-improvisation for about 15 years now, it really does change the way you look at the world of music and sound. For me personally I can never listen to conventional music anymore, it sounds odd, sort of childish, especially pop music, which is like nursery rimes, and how anyone can be rewarded for doing that stuff is beyond me, I would pay them to go away. Don't worry, I'm as chilled as a man can be

Take care,

Tony..

Quote arpangel:

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I have a fundamental problem, I've never liked mainstream pop music, of any era, and especially dislike songs, instrumental tracks are always more interesting to me. I dislike structure, form, rhythm, harmony etc. When listening to a piece of music I always hear the texture, that's what's interesting to me. I never sit down and conciously listen, there is no point, music always sounds better when doing another activity, when I'm not concentrating.

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Ever tried Klaus Schulze or Amon Duul II's early years (up to '71?)

For the last 7 years I seem to have bought only a handful of recent releases. The main body of my purchases was comprised of crazy Germans...

Quote archdake mkII:

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For the last 7 years I seem to have bought only a handful of recent releases. The main body of my purchases was comprised of crazy Germans...

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I listen to a lot of music from many, many genres.

But, I must concede, a great deal of it seems to stem from crazy Germans!



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http://www.myspace.com/neverrevolution

Hi Archdake, yes, I have "Time Winds" by Klaus Shultz, I like all that early German electronica. I also like Cluster, and some of Can. Lately I am moving away completely from traditional ways of working, Listening to Tod Dockstadder, Ligeti, Cage, especially the prepared piano pieces, and a band called Club Of Gore. I was listening to Equatorial Stars by Eno, and now like it after a very dubious start, he has moved into a more abstract mood for that album and I like it, very "transporting" I think music for me is playing a different role than it used to in my life, these days its a an "enhnacer" an atmosphere, to other things, and thats the way I,m going with my own music and with my band, I really dont care what the consequencies will be, the fun is not knowing anything. Falling of the edge of the cliff, with no safety net, or putting yourself in the control of somebody else for a change, their is too much predictabillity in this world for me at the moment.

Take care,

Tony.

Haven't listened to too much of his stuff, but I find that type of production amounts to Wall of Shite. His cliched big sound on Let It Be stuff, is an embarrassingly mediocre sound for a massive Beatles fan like myself.

Quote myshkin:

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Haven't listened to too much of his stuff, but I find that type of production amounts to Wall of Shite.

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If you're not familiar which too much of his stuff, you don't find... you guess.

As others pointed out earlier... there's more to Spector than Wall of Sound, and Let It Be wasn't his master work.

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www.bemuso.com

Arps - i both agree and disagree with you.

why i agree - yes i to love the unrestrained free forms of these kinds of music, whether man made or machine driven. they have an appeal which i love.

why i disagree - ONE purpose (although not THE prupose) of music is often to communicate. To communicate you need to embrace all forms of music.

As a producer or musician or composer you need to understand the different methods and textures to communicate. It would seem obvious that to communicate with you and people like you i would need to make music of one kind, whereas for other people one would need to produce music of a different form. Now, my job is to help artists MAKE that communication. SOOOOO as a producer I wouldnt be much cop if I entriely and exclusively agreed with you. But neither would i be of no use if i entirely disagreed ! Hence, i have to both agree and oppose. Which most of us should really !

yowser

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

oops

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Edited by narcoman (25/10/05 09:12 PM)

Hehe, find myself chuckling again at the "I haven't heard it, but it's crap. There." type replies!

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Stuff what I done

Quote Rob C.:

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Quote myshkin:

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Haven't listened to too much of his stuff, but I find that type of production amounts to Wall of Shite.

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If you're not familiar which too much of his stuff, you don't find... you guess.

As others pointed out earlier... there's more to Spector than Wall of Sound, and Let It Be wasn't his master work.

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I'm only responding to what I've heard of his work. Besides Let It Be, the obvious big singles we all know. And to me it amounts to a wall of shite. Reminds me of Amadeus where Mozart is asked by the emperor of what he thinks of some operatic piece they've attended, and his polite response is something like "Well, he certainly makes a big sound."

Quote arpangel:

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Hi Archdake, yes, I have "Time Winds" by Klaus Shultz, I like all that early German electronica. I also like Cluster, and some of Can. Lately I am moving away completely from traditional ways of working, Listening to Tod Dockstadder, Ligeti, Cage, especially the prepared piano pieces, and a band called Club Of Gore. I was listening to Equatorial Stars by Eno, and now like it after a very dubious start, he has moved into a more abstract mood for that album and I like it, very "transporting" I think music for me is playing a different role than it used to in my life, these days its a an "enhnacer" an atmosphere, to other things, and thats the way I,m going with my own music and with my band, I really dont care what the consequencies will be, the fun is not knowing anything. Falling of the edge of the cliff, with no safety net, or putting yourself in the control of somebody else for a change, their is too much predictabillity in this world for me at the moment.

Take care,

Tony.

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May I also suggest Popol Vuh and Stockhausen (Klaus Schulze himself said that many of the things Stockhausen did he [Klaus] didn't understand...)


And Gojiro, yes, those crazy Germans influenced more people than the majority knows (ask the fathers of techno if the name Manuel Gottsching [Ash Ra Tempel/Ashra] sounds familiar).

Reading all the postings here once again confirmed the wisdom of Frank Zappa - to wit, "talking about music is like dancing about architecture".

That said, I think Archdrake has a good point about PS (and excellent taste in German prog, I might add). I'm not a Spector fan per se but I'm a fan of a lot of people who think the guy was a genius. There's a lot of stuff in the universe I can't hope to master given finite time and finite brain cells, so I defer to others who are excellent in their field. And in the field of producing, there are only a handful of 'names' everyone knows: Spector, Ramone, Martin, Conny Plank (German prog), etc. THese guys got their reps among their peers by coming up with signature sounds.

You can argue that Spector's approach is similar to something a lot of us in the synth world do, which is timbral blending - ie, where you take an FM flute (or organ or string) patch, a sampled flute patch, an analog flute patch, etc. and mix them together - done right, the whole is more than the sum of the parts.

As with everything, however, too much of a good thing can be too much. Sort of like overcooking pasta. And too many instruments will, in the hands of most mortals, sound like that. THe genius is to make it work, and many think Spector did that at his best.

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Hi all ! this post has put me in dire straights, yesterday I was rushed to my local hospital A+E department, my tongue had become firmly lodged in my cheek, they removed it succesfuly and sent me away with a months supply of anti-cynicle tablets. I was warned that their my be side effects, symtoms such as: heaping praise on poeple that really don't desrver it, automaticlly agreeing with everything people say, and walking around with a huge grin on my face looking happy.............
I will say one last thing about Spector, he did use some great musicians, but sometimes they were so burried in the mix that you couldn't hear them, Larry Carlton, Buddy Rich Carol Kaye, on one session, but they may as well have stayed at home, becuae they were inaudable ! It was not unusual for Spector to employ three or four drummers on one session ! I can just imagine the scene, all those world class players struggling to be heard, must have been absolute mayhem

Take care !

Tony.

I will say one last thing about Spector, he did use some great musicians, but sometimes they were so burried in the mix that you couldn't hear them, Larry Carlton, Buddy Rich Carol Kaye, on one session, but they may as well have stayed at home, becuae they were inaudable ! It was not unusual for Spector to employ three or four drummers on one session ! I can just imagine the scene, all those world class players struggling to be heard, must have been absolute mayhem

Take care !

Tony.

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But I'm sure there was a big sound.

How about the topic for a change?

Quote archdake mkII:

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Hello!

I've decided to spend my lazy Saturday digging out info on this topic. When googled I either got Phil's tribute sites, a Wikipedia link or news regarding the famous murder case.

Anyone got any useful links/articles?

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www.bemuso.com

And according to a Carole Kaye interview (check out Mark Cunninghams - Good Vibrations Book)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1860742424/104-1473580-15783 18?v=glance

3 basses on one session
If I remember rightly - a Danelectro, Fender and Acoustic..

Musicians not even mic'ed up - but daren't ask the musician to leave just in case it changed the sound..
etc..

Check out some Kaye interviews with specific references to Spector Sessions
http://www.richieunterberger.com/kaye.html
http://www.intimateaudio.com/brian_wilson_interview.html
http://www.carolkaye.com/www/library/faq.htm

And some bass tips (give an idea on what is played underneath that whole wall)
http://www.carolkaye.com/www/education/tips101.htm


Edited by Simon (aka UK03878) (26/10/05 12:25 PM)

Hi all, OK I give in, he did have a sound a must agree, but it was very one dimensional, he had a sound alright, but that was it, one sound ! It started and it stopped, dynamically it was very limited, but I guess it went down well on the old juke-box.

Take care !

Tony.

Quote dubbmann:

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Reading all the postings here once again confirmed the wisdom of Frank Zappa - to wit, "talking about music is like dancing about architecture".

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he he

Quote:

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That said, I think Archdrake has a good point about PS (and excellent taste in German prog, I might add).

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Thanks, it takes a man with good taste to recognise another.



Rob C., thanks for the steering back to the topic aid!

At the very least, Mr Spectre should be respected for his
pioneering work in the field of hairspray and hand guns.

And Mr McCartny, is filthy rich and lovin it and probably
doesn't give a fig. "Band on the Run" and "Mull of Kintire"
from his Wings days are two of my favorites.

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http://profile.myspace.com/abitfunkdub/

Quote archdake mkII:

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Rob C., thanks for the steering back to the topic aid!

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Kidz these days... such a short attention span... eh?

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www.bemuso.com

Quote Rob C.:

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Quote archdake mkII:

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Rob C., thanks for the steering back to the topic aid!

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Kidz these days... such a short attention span... eh?

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Huh??? What'd you say??? Sorry man, I wasn't paying attention!!! Hehe...

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Phil Spector is a man with strange hair who I think has something to do wit hmusic or guns or something. Or maybe he had something to do with walls...something anyway.

Let's ask these question at first:

Should Oasis change their producer?
Which of Bob Dylan's last two albums sound the best?

I think a good producer is an invisible one, who makes great music come through without bringing forth his own great vision.

The producer star Daniel Lanois' Bob Dylan album "Time out of mind" sounds old and dead and boring compared to Bob Dylans selfproduced "Love And Theft".

Oasis should definitely change producer.

A producer to admire, is to my mind Rick Rubin. He makes everything he touches sound great, from the beastie boys to red hot to slayer to johnny cash + + +. I want to add John Hammond to that list.

The greatest producer is the one who most loves and believes in the music he's producing.

Personally, I hate producers with very specific ideas - Phil Spector being one the worst of that group. He has covered a lots of great music in layers of stupidity.

thought i'd check what al kooper had to say about phil s. from his immortal book 'backstage passes and backstabbing bastards':

"My influences were most notably [John] Simon, Phil Spector (king of the sixties produders in sound innovation), Jerry Ragovoy, and George Martin."

al ain't nobody's fool ...

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Hi all, I'm a big fan of Daniel Lanois, but I do have to admit he's better on his own, his productions are very much "of their time" and don't seem that fresh anymore, shame, I still like him though.
I guess you hire a particular producer because you like their approach, if you don't want them to influence the sound of your record then produce it yourself !

Take care,

Tony.

i think he's been using the last few years to perfect his legendry wall of hair