Quote grAInger:

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im sure you got it the wrong way round with behringer there, mr byre, surely they have gone down market rapidly in the last ten years ... their gear used to be high quality pro rack equipment, then they jumped on the home recording bandwagon and got cheaper and cheaper .. anyone seen their new firewire interface for less than 60 quid !!!

cheers
grainger

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errr what the hell gave you that idea???

Behringer have NEVER been "high quality pro Rack equipment"

they've ALWAYS been about bringing the cheapest product to market they possibly could.... it's simply that as they've grown, they've used economies of scale to further reduce the prices, deliberately competing on price, and "over optimistic" marketing...

Simply saying "professional quality FX" and labelling an item "pro-xl" does NOT make it so.....

compare ANY generation of their product to an acknowledged "good" "pro" product of the same era, and you'll find the Behringer is the lesser of the two products... AND Cheaper.

I suspect a large part of their market earlier was the live sound market... it certainly was in my experience anyway...

the typical Hire PA thinking at the time went along the lines of

"why buy one of these, admittedly very nice DBX compressors, when I can buy 5 Composers for the same money, and not care if they break, get beer spilled in them and so on... " they didn't sound "amazing" they simply did a job cheaply...

the market penetration was highly effective....

okay, there were two products which could arguably be said to have bucked that trend...

the UltraCurve and Ultradyne....

these two actually didn't do a bad job... but they cost a lot more for a longer time than any of the other items in the range.... and can still be found today, sitting in some very prestigious PA racks..../.

I first Encountered them in Midge Ure's regular PA many years ago... when they were a "new" thing

and was actually impressed... with the facilities they provided FOR THE MONEY.

the same job could be done, arguably better, with other gear, but at 5 or 6 times the cost per unit.

but in the context of a Live PA rig, they did a perfectly acceptable Job... hell even if the power supply did Buzz acoustically, in that environment, you would NEVER have heard it....

in a decent studio control room though, damn right you'd hear it.... and put the EQ up against a decent quality analogue unit, and there's no way you'd choose it in preference...

and you need to pay quite a bit more than the price of an Ultradyne to get a unit that provides similar facilities AND sounds better.,

But you CAN improve on it's sound... TC triple C does a reasonable job, but you need to go further up market to match the 6 bands the Ultradyne has.,.

( to be fair, these days almost any half decent multiband dynamics plug in sounds better.... )


But in the Working PA rig, the balance between cost and performance is very different from the balance in the studio....

in the studio you should always strive for the n'th degree of perfection to some extent....

whereas in a Live scenario, you try and get the best sound you can, in the least time and for the least money.... to make the job pay, and be able to actually achieve a touring schedule that has the slightest chance of making a profit for anyone involved.
(and these days, it seems not forgetting to completely ignore the audience's experience )


Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

There is something that has been touched on a little above which is the idea of brand value.

Taking the Fiat and Mercedes example - if Mercedes manufactured Puntos, it could charge signifcantly more for them than Fiat could.

Of course you have to earn that brand value in the first place.

I'd therefore suggest that, say, Mackie could sell an identical product to Behringer for perhaps double the price, simply because people have more confidence in the brand.

(ah but Behringer are in fact selling copies of Mackie products I hear you cry... but that's another issue...)

Anyway - I'm not going to pretend that Behringer gear is of the top quality availble. But I would suggest that you might pay around double for a similar product by another manufacturer.

I have several pieces of Behringer equipment and all are still in perfect working order, and have served me well. Would I buy them again? With my budget, yes. They definitely offer quality that would have been unheard of at the price a few years ago. And I don't neccessarily associate "Made in China" with bad quality any more - even Volkswagen are manufacturing cars in China. Often products made there actually seem of very high quality.

I also think it's a fair point that buying cheap equipment doesn't always represent good value for money, because the investment is in a sense wasted when the product needs replacing, whereas better gear may never require replacing. Also the issues of "can it be repaired" and "is there any customer service" are important ones for audio professionals.

I think the second-hand market sometimes provides the best value for money for the beginner, even if new products initially seem more appealing.

J

Don't forget there is copying and copying

You can copy using the same components or you can copy and use the cheapest components and down-rate them all -EG: 10% tolerance instead of 1%, etc., etc..

'Nuff said

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

errr .. sorry max but only 7 years ago the behringer composer had a higher rrp than dbx units of the same spec (so i dont see how you could buy 5 of them for the same as a dbx), i have a lot of old sos back issues here. their euro rack mixers were similarly expensive, and were equipped with high quality opamps .. although i know in those days rrp didnt mean that anyone really sold them at that price. (and of course i KNOW to call something PRO doesnt make it so !!! ... )

in those days the cheapest guys on the block were ZOOM - a name that hasnt come up in this discussion yet ..

also you are still making the mistake that this conversation is only about studio equipment, we are also talking about home recording. which has been pointed out already, will not require the gear to be industrial spec, so to pay premium prices for something that is made stronger seems a bit pointless. so long as it does the job and doesnt spoil the sound it will hopefully last long enough to get the ideas down on disc.

cheers
grainger

regarding the Behringer bashing - here's a successful media composer who when interviewed by SOS a few years ago was using Behringer ...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug01/articles/pfarrer0801.asp

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sorry max but only 7 years ago the behringer composer had a higher rrp than dbx units of the same spec (so i dont see how you could buy 5 of them for the same as a dbx), i have a lot of old sos back issues here. their euro rack mixers were similarly expensive, and were equipped with high quality opamps .. although i know in those days rrp didnt

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The low-end DBX stuff doesn't neccessarily inspire confidence either. Years ago, DBX took a big turn for the worse with regards to quality when they started coming out with their lower-cost products.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

It's not entirely relevant but I see Behringer have just announced a £60 firewire interface.

Now you can get DVD players for £20 it illustrates how cheap it is to make mass produced electronics in China. These probably aren't great but as with audio many people don't notice or don't care. I certainly don't notice and it's probably also true of audio. The music has always mattered far more to me than the recording quality. However I do understand that such cheap stuff is probably not contributing to sustainability especially if it gives up after 18 moths and is replaced by something as cheap. Then again in the whole consumer electronics field I don't think expensive stuff is built to last either and that's a huge market compared to audio recording equipment.

...all i can say is the whole world is going down the toilet.

that's all i'm going to say...

you don't want to get me started!

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here.
In my kitchen I have a 'nice' cooker - I cook what I think is really nice meals but then again I don't cook for 200 seats a night every night every day of the week (except Wednesdays). It s not a 'pro' cooker. It serves my purposes - I use good ingredients and what comes out is good enough for people to eat(!) - in fact on occasions I have produced a really nice meal which peple said was lovely (the alcohol may have clouded their judgement (but so in a night club with anything recorded just to get back onto subject!!!))
Home recording is about getting ideas down not recording the next No.1 isn't it? Does anyone really think (as opposed to wish) they will have be on top of the pops (or make £m) with what they recorded on their PC. Don't you go into your proper studio and say I recorded this make it better with your thousand pound mike, thousand pound compressor, thousand pound valve guitar amp ... get the picture.
I work in IT and we prototype things and then build them properly with proper tools and proper implementations. But sometime we get a gem of a protype that actually is right. Sadley other time we push out the craply recorded prototypes just to make money
Music is a busines and there are lots of levels of 'quality', all are relevant as in all other busines. Cars, supermarkets, TV, music, sex - you get what you pay for just hope you have plenty of disposable income or can sell at a profit.

This just occured to me... Erm?

Relevance? Up to you.

Just for arguments sake..... Just supposing that you were put in a studio and had a modicum (at least) of talent and a reasonable grasp of the basics of sound engineering and technology, that, i imagine is most of the contributors here... Anyway this studio you have at your disposal has a hell of a lot of behringer gear, lets say ALL behringer, aside from the synths and instruments.

Could you, or could you not get a decent recording?
A usable recording? Maybe not as fantastic as you may like, but given the nature of the eqpt, a reasonably decent recording that 1000's of people (musicians and non musicians?) up and down the country would regard as a listenable recording. Honestly!

I hope that made a little sense, it's a serious question.

I say yes.

And no, i'm not the man from Del Monte.

Quote RML:

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lets say ALL behringer, aside from the synths and instruments.

Could you, or could you not get a decent recording?

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Yes, I reckon I could; providing reliability (one of the main criticisms) wasn't an issue on the day. This is as you say; the skill of the operator is more important. However, it does cut both ways. Having a working knowledge of a wider range of equipment, I also reckon I could get a justifiably better recording using gear that doesn't cost the earth, but doesn't fall into the Behringer-Bargain-Basement category either.

The second caveat as I see it is this: Going back to the above quoted question, my reply of 'yes' is also qualified by the fact that I'm comfortable with my engineering skills and confident in my ability to spot & avoid/work around the inherrent limitations in most Behringer (or other low-budget) equipment. If I gave *myself-6-years-ago* a studio full of Behringer equipment to make a recording, I think the limitations would be harder for me to spot & counteract.

Hence, newbies stocking up on loads cheap Behringer-etc gear are satisfying the 'me too!' factor of our psyche, but would be better served learning more about how to make careful & effective recordings with a more limited range of better-quality gear. In the process, they'll learn how to differentiate between the relative value of cheapo shelf-filling items & better quality apparatus.

Regards,

Mike

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www.ehsound.co.uk - Live Sound Hire & Services

Nice one Michael, yes that all makes good sense, i and think i am understanding you.

I too am reasonably comfortable with my skills and the abilities that years of hard work and therefore experience bring... To the two of us, for example!
Newbies gearing up on the cheap will miss out on the classy stuff? Hmmm? Maybe a few, but when i was driving an Escort i wanted a BMW. And always dreamt of the Porsche. Both just incidentally German, curiously enough.

Of course there are budget alternatives to behringer that could achieve better recordings, i know exactly what you mean.

Behringer is cheap, so are Zoom, Phonic, Edirol, Samson, And for a few quid more you can do Drawmer, Focusrite, Dynaudio etc etc..... And it all depends on the budget, if they have the money, they should buy better, yes of course.

I'll stop here before my incoherence increases.

hi michael - though if the 'newbie' buys a composer rather than downloading a vst i think he will probably at least learn more about how compressors work

hi gerard - yep youve got it, the world is already in the toilet. but it really isnt to do with cheap home recording gear

cheers
grainger

Quote Michael Harrison:

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Quote RML:

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The second caveat as I see it is this: Going back to the above quoted question, my reply of 'yes' is also qualified by the fact that I'm comfortable with my engineering skills and confident in my ability to spot & avoid/work around the inherrent limitations in most Behringer (or other low-budget) equipment. If I gave *myself-6-years-ago* a studio full of Behringer equipment to make a recording, I think the limitations would be harder for me to spot & counteract.

Hence, newbies stocking up on loads cheap Behringer-etc gear are satisfying the 'me too!' factor of our psyche, but would be better served learning more about how to make careful & effective recordings with a more limited range of better-quality gear. In the process, they'll learn how to differentiate between the relative value of cheapo shelf-filling items & better quality apparatus.

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This sounds like a fantastic piece of advice for anyone new to this, I shall certainly follow this rule too, very well put, thanks!

Quote grAInger:

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also you are still making the mistake that this conversation is only about studio equipment, we are also talking about home recording. which has been pointed out already, will not require the gear to be industrial spec, so to pay premium prices for something that is made stronger seems a bit pointless. so long as it does the job and doesnt spoil the sound it will hopefully last long enough to get the ideas down on disc.

cheers
grainger

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IMO there is a (relatively large) middle ground between esoteric, boutique, high-spec, professional studio gear and cheap-as-chips, lucky-if-it-lasts-a-month, sounds-like-crap, home recording gear.

I believe the point being made by many (and certainly by me) is that if you can't afford to and/or don't want to spend that much money on high end gear, it still doesn't make sense (economic or otherwise) to buy the cheap crap (whoever makes it) because you'll end up with junk (the hard/software and your recordings) that nobody wants.

Whether you're (one is) in it for the 'fun' of it or you have more serious ambitions, whether you're trying to just get a record (as in archive) of your band's practice, make a demo or produce a release-ready recording, to me, there is little point in skimping for the sake of a few quid here and there. What you save here you’ll lose later in wasted time and money when unreliable equipment inevitably breaks down.

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One Love, Spy!
Blog | Podcasts | Tunes

i dunno i think the behringer bashers are pretty much trounced to be honest (if you have the ideas and the abilities and the recording environment then behringer WILL do the job) . .. as was pointed out earlier, the world is going down the toilet, i for one believe that one of the reasons for this sad state of affairs is that on this side of the world some of us have a feeling that its ok to spend enormous amounts of money on esoteric TOYS that hypnotise the user, with their price tag, into believing that they sound better and will make their owners into a PRO !!!

the resale prices of behringer (and zoom etc) gear on ebay is pretty good to be honest. what do you have to lose ? except maybe your prejudices (or your illusions about your own abilities !?)

cheers
grainger

Quote grAInger:

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i dunno i think the behringer bashers are pretty much trounced to be honest (if you have the ideas and the abilities and the recording environment then behringer WILL do the job)

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You really don't get it, do you?

It is not an either / or -- pro / anti calculation. I too use Behringer for simple eq's and headphone amps and you will find some Behringer gear in some very prestige studios for whom the sticker price is hardly a big issue.

When you buy cheap kit (Cheap Kitt, Gadd how often I used to love that woman!) you also pay in loss of quality. Somewhere between a Rolls Royce and a Fiat Uno is a good car that is right for you. In the same way, somewhere between Erdirol and Avalon is the right pre-amp for you.
If the item is not mission critical, then one tends towards cheaper stuff. If the item is very important to what you do and it is a complicated task, then one tends to opt for better quality. But when you do buy the very, very cheapest, then you will end up with the very lowest quality. This all too often tips over into being useless.

(Remember the guy with the Behringer Eurodesk that wanted to use the direct outs for live recording, but could not because they were not direct outs at all, but just taps off the fader? That means that he spent £800 on a desk that is of no use to him.)

This calculation is one that we aught to take with us to every item we buy. The cheapest car breaks down, the cheapest bread is unhealthy, the cheapest vacuum cleaner falls to bits, the cheapest DVD player can't play all formats, the cheapest house has rising damp, the cheapest shoes are just glued together. All will be useless far sooner than something that has been built, manufactured, designed, what ever, properly.

This must not be confused with the so-called snob effect of having an item that carries a certain name and unfortunately the pro-audio market is full of these products. Items that are heavily marketed are often not the best. After all, who pays for the marketing?

Also, items that are just the most expensive in their field are not always the best. If you buy a Neve 88R you may be getting £250,000 worth of engineering excellence, but you are also getting a very unreliable desk. The very lowest THD and noise floor comes at an engineering cost, as well as a monetary cost.

If you buy a Behringer Eurodesk, you are getting a different type of engineering excellence (how to build a mixing desk for almost nothing) but you are still getting a very unreliable desk.

The law of diminishing marginal utility (aka the law of diminishing returns) tells us that if you have too much of anything, an extra one will be of little value. This law also places a very high value on those goods that you have very little of. If you are starving to death, a 50p bar of chocolate is worth everything you have.

But quality does not work like that. Too much quality may follow the law above, (the car that become a plastic gin-palace, the mixing desk that becomes a service black hole after a few years) but too little means that below a certain level, the item becomes useless.

Success is built of many components (intelligence, tenacity, attention to detail, realism, ability to judge people) and one of those components is to know when not to go to extremes.

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www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member

Quote grAInger:

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though if the 'newbie' buys a composer rather than downloading a vst i think he will probably at least learn more about how compressors work

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now THERE we can agree 150% Wholeheartedly....

, it's one of "those" things... i would much prefer it if people weren't allowed to use presets until AFTER they knew how to operate the "real thing" .

Although, to be fair, with some synths, that would be counter productive IMHO... but for Signal processing , it's very relevant...

Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

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. .. as was pointed out earlier, the world is going down the toilet, i for one believe that one of the reasons for this sad state of affairs is that on this side of the world some of us have a feeling that its ok to spend enormous amounts of money on esoteric TOYS that hypnotise the user, with their price tag, into believing that they sound better and will make their owners into a PRO !!!

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From what I've seen here, those that espouse the high-end gear aren't doing it for snobbery nor do believe these are esoteric 'toys', they buy it because of it's reliability and longevity. It's interesting to note that all of those arguing in favour of the higher end gear ARE Pros ie. they actually have to make a living using the gear.
If you or I as hobbyists have equipment die on us it's a pain, but we won't lose any work (ie. income) because of it. If you earn a living doing something, you buy the best tools you can afford for the job, but you also have to buy with cost in mind as you have to make a profit in the end. If these guys were happy that Behringer (or cheap DBX, Zoom whatever) would do the job reliably I'm sure they'd use it as they'd have to work less for the same income.

I fail to see how buying quality esoteric 'toys' makes the world a worse place. There's an implication in your comment that those buying expensive gear are more responsible for the world's problems than those of us that can only afford cheap gear. If you're referring generally to conspicuous comsumption, there's plenty of that right now at all price levels. Buying something that retains it's value and it still useable after a few years seems to me to be a far more beneficial thing to the world than buying a cheap item that could fail after a year, can't be fixed and ends up in a landfill.

I believe this was Max's original point, that low end manufacturer's business methods are both economically and ecologically unsustainable in the long term. If Behringer really has stimulated new demand for their products (ie. lots of new users who'd never thought of recording music before), why do their prices keep dropping? They are a business, surely it's in their interest to maximise returns? They have the brand awareness and market share at the low end, so the only reason I can see is that they're worried someone will come along and build stuff even cheaper. hardly a model for long term economic sustainability.

We have a worldwide glut of very cheap durable goods right now, mainly due to an excess of labour (ie the Chinese workforce). There's also major production overcapacity worldwide, which again is driving prices lower, at the same time raw material prices are rising, things will not get cheaper for ever.

...A behringer mixer owner

Quote grAInger:

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i dunno i think the behringer bashers are pretty much trounced to be honest (if you have the ideas and the abilities and the recording environment then behringer WILL do the job) . .. as was pointed out earlier, the world is going down the toilet, i for one believe that one of the reasons for this sad state of affairs is that on this side of the world some of us have a feeling that its ok to spend enormous amounts of money on esoteric TOYS that hypnotise the user, with their price tag, into believing that they sound better and will make their owners into a PRO !!!

the resale prices of behringer (and zoom etc) gear on ebay is pretty good to be honest. what do you have to lose ? except maybe your prejudices (or your illusions about your own abilities !?)

cheers
grainger

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spoken by a man who's almost certainly never directly heard any of the gear which he decries, never mind actually used it.

I would point out that many here HAVE actually used both the expensive kit AND Behringer AND alternative cheap and Mid range brands, and are in a position to determine for themselves how much money they feel required to hand over to a manufacturer

and you'll find they ALL agree on the results and the majority of points under discussion here.

and NONE of them really enjoy giving money away that they could otherwise use on their own families, homes and pensions etc etc.,.....

Trounced?


I doubt it.
When's the next shuttle from planet grAInger then?


Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

aaah ... max you just couldnt let it lie could ya ?

im sure youve played with much more expensive toys than me, what does that prove ? what equipment have i seriously decried ? ("neumann stink" was an ironic statement ) ... yr words are like lead, they drop around you like spent pennies, or wasted shot. youve come and you didnt even realize it !! you have NOT refuted a single one of my points in any way .. we are not all studio owners, mebbe 5 percent of the forum users, its very interesting to hear yr esteemed opinions but please dont ram them down our throats. we dont all make money at it, most of us are on a seriously tight budget.

was i wrong when i said behringer gear goes for a fair price on ebay ? was i wrong when i agreed with another poster that if you have the idea, the ability and the environment you can do it with behringer ?

yes im opposed to conspicuous consumption, whats wrong with that ? and of course, i know its not black and white, but you lot keep trying to make it so .. there is NOT (IMHO) any particular RIGHT tool for any particular job (you can drive a nail with a stone, or a screw with a knife if you have to ... and some of us HAVE TO !!! )

behringer have proved consistently that there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear. they can make it for a tenth of the price, why cant anyone else ? .. they have been bashed for 'copying' other manufacturers designs, but in solid state signal processing there is only one 'correct' way to construct a mic preamp or a bell shaped eq or a VCA compressor, you cant make it any other way - you can skimp on power supplies, or hardware or whatever but the circuit only works in one way - such fundamental designs cannot belong to one company.

night night
grainger

ps theres only one bus a day to and from planet grAInger and the driver wont let anyone on who smells funny ..

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but in solid state signal processing there is only one 'correct' way to construct a mic preamp or a bell shaped eq or a VCA compressor, you cant make it any other way - you can skimp on power supplies, or hardware or whatever but the circuit only works in one way - such fundamental designs cannot belong to one company.

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Spoken like someone with little knowledge of electronic engineeering.

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there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear

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Overpriced!! You really are on a different planet. BTW Neve & Neumann aren't designed for 'home recording'.

Like you I'm on a seriously tight budget, I just save up until I REALLY need something. But then 'saving' money isn't something any of us are supposed to now is it - we've got to keep the wheels of commerce oiled...

Quote grAInger:

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behringer have proved consistently that there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear. they can make it for a tenth of the price, why cant anyone else ? .. they have been bashed for 'copying' other manufacturers designs, but in solid state signal processing there is only one 'correct' way to construct a mic preamp or a bell shaped eq or a VCA compressor, you cant make it any other way - you can skimp on power supplies, or hardware or whatever but the circuit only works in one way - such fundamental designs cannot belong to one company.

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Not "bashed" for copying. Successfully sued (by Mackie). They steal. Pure and simple. A judge has so ordered. (And as a matter of pure personal morality I then decided not to buy their products. I don't really care if you call me sanctimonious. I can live with my own conscience).

See also their very recent withdrawal (under threat of legal action by Roland) of the launch of a bunch of Boss rip-off guitar pedals.

There are many ways of designing these things, which is why (say) a Manley compressor costs rather more than a Behringer. To say there is only one way to correctly make a mic pre-amp does, I fear, betray your lack of understanding of the topic. On that logic, Universal Audio (say) could argue they did it all in the 1960s and anything anyone else has done since (including Behringer) is a waste of space.

Actually, on reflection, that argument has some attractions....

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Steve,
THis argument/discussion has been flogged to death on many occasions, but if you are going to excercise your rights not to buy a company's product(s) because of some moral reason, then I hope you apply that to ALL products you buy.
Microsoft are leaders in this field so I only hope you are posting your reply from a Mac or Linux machine.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

"behringer have proved consistently that there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear. they can make it for a tenth of the price, why cant anyone else ?"

Don't be silly! Behringer have proved no such thing! Consistent!! Yes, very consistently breaking down . . . noisy, and nasty gear (with some exceptions) Because to get good, reliable gear, you have to spend money on better electronics, R&D, components . . . the list goes on.

As to your point about making good recordings with Behringer & their like,
yes it is possible, but they could be BETTER, and that's what I strive for, and many others. It's no good burying your head in the sand and posting that inferior gear will be as good as great gear - and expecting a positive reaction from those of us who have used GREAT EQs, GREAT compressers, GREAT reverbs, GREAT mics & pres . . . . . . . and who have to use something dead cheap that is really bloody frustrating to use because it won't bloomin' do what you want of it!

G

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PA stuff on FB

Quote BigAl:

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Steve,
THis argument/discussion has been flogged to death on many occasions, but if you are going to excercise your rights not to buy a company's product(s) because of some moral reason, then I hope you apply that to ALL products you buy.
Microsoft are leaders in this field so I only hope you are posting your reply from a Mac or Linux machine.

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Mac

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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It's like never ordering the cheapest wine on a restarant wine list (after costs, tax, storage, serving-staff costs etc that £10 bottle means you get about 25 pence worth of wine. Buy a £12 bottle and you get £2.25 worth of wine, i.e. something nine times "better").

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Uhm, no. I've worked in bars and restaurants for over 10 years and I can assure you they all have a fixed ratio of wholesale price > customer price. So if they sell a £2,50 bottle for £10, they'll sell a £10 bottle for £40.

Think about it. The way you are presenting things, they would make as much money on a £10 bottle of wine as they would on a £200 bottle of champagne.

(With the food it's different. Restaurants make very little, if anything at all, on the food. But it's the food that allows them to sell a bottle of wine for 4 times what they pay for it.)

ANd a bottle of Becks costs far too much in the supermarket, yet unknown German brands which are every bit as good are a lot less.
Brewer pubs who sell cans for 2 quid (carry out) usually have to buy them from the brewers at an inflated price, rather than go down their local off-license.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Straying wildly OT, reminds me of the business conference I was on in Italy where a bottle of beer from the hotel minibar was £4! The exact same bottle in the supermarket opposite the hotel was 33p. Got back to my room to find a handwritten note on the bed: "If you continue to use the minibar to store your own drinks there will be big trouble".

I never did find out what they had in mind, and whether this involved the local mafia bosses....

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I think sos should run a competition to see who can make the best recording with 200 quid or so of behringer gear (that'd include mics, mixer, outboard)

... who said behringer is AS GOOD AS (so called) great gear ? hey ? ... who said that ? .. NOT ME .. who said NEVE and NEUMANN were designed for 'home recording' ?? .. NOT ME

who says behringer gear is always breaking down ? .. who says it is noisy and nasty ? .. YOU LOT who are supposed to never buy behringer, so how do you know ? is there anyone else ? .. (anyone read the recent posts from extremely satisfied behringer owners talking about their midi controllers ?)

(as was said about 3 pages back) which 'professional' studio owner EVER sat down and made a choice between NEVE or BEHRINGER ?

as for yr own limited grasps of solid state electronics, of course there are 'many' ways of making a pre amp (etc) but they are ALL variations on ONE basic circuit. there is only one way of making a circuit with any particular characteristics ... so if you want to make a pre amp with particular high gain, particular low noise levels, particular wide dynamic range, particular wide frequency response, etc there is only ONE configuration of components to do it with ... am i right ? .. .

you really have all got yr heads stuck up yr back passages

bye fer now
grainger

tipex - brilliant idea

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as for yr own limited grasps of solid state electronics, of course there are 'many' ways of making a pre amp (etc) but they are ALL variations on ONE basic circuit. there is only one way of making a circuit with any particular characteristics ... so if you want to make a pre amp with particular high gain, particular low noise levels, particular wide dynamic range, particular wide frequency response, etc there is only ONE configuration of components to do it with ... am i right ? .. .

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No. You are about as wrong as it is humanly possible to be.

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www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member

Quote Steve Hill:

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Not "bashed" for copying. Successfully sued (by Mackie). They steal. Pure and simple. A judge has so ordered. (And as a matter of pure personal morality I then decided not to buy their products. I don't really care if you call me sanctimonious. I can live with my own conscience).

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Quote Steve Hill:

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I can shamefully reveal that The Behringer Thing was used on the last album put together in this studio. They do seem to have got that particular rip-off right!

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Latter quote originally posted by someone called, I believe, "Steve Hill" on 01/10/05.

Are these two related?

I think we should be told...

Interesting posting behaviour* of grAinger. I note there are no public details on his Forum name.

Feed him a line, and he bites quite predictably.

G

*polite for troll-candidate.

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PA stuff on FB

Quote:

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I can shamefully reveal that The Behringer Thing was used on the last album put together in this studio. They do seem to have got that particular rip-off right!

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And which particular Behringer Thing would that be

To clear up a running hare before it becomes a popular misconception, a Behringer reverb unit was used here on the last album made before I bought the studio. Along with several Lexicons etc as well!

I own that album and it's OK. But don't ask me to endorse the reverb unit, because I don't know which one it was or how much it was used!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote grAInger:

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as for yr own limited grasps of solid state electronics, of course there are 'many' ways of making a pre amp (etc) but they are ALL variations on ONE basic circuit.

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Um, why do you even entertain the somewhat endearing illusion that "solid state electronics" have anything to do with the price of eggs? Most audiophiles spit on the term solid state, and with good reason...

Grainger, you may well be an interesting guy with interesting opinions, but when in a hole, stop digging. For your own sake. Please.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

guy, gis a break mate, what dya want to know about me ? search the net, ive been around for years .. i will admit, i have some opinions which arent good for me, ie they make me look uncool, so what ? is that all you lot are here for ? im no expert, except when it comes to what i do.

i dont see what hole im in ? i was just responding to some half baked opinions from a scottish studio owner.

nuff said
grainger

Quote grAInger:

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guy, gis a break mate, what dya want to know about me ? search the net, ive been around for years .. i will admit, i have some opinions which arent good for me, ie they make me look uncool, so what ? is that all you lot are here for ? im no expert, except when it comes to what i do.

i dont see what hole im in ? i was just responding to some half baked opinions from a scottish studio owner.

nuff said
grainger

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Andy makes a living from his opinions. You don't. That's all there is to it. It's nothing personal. Really.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...