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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207126 - 06/11/05 01:31 PM
Quote grAInger:

i dunno i think the behringer bashers are pretty much trounced to be honest (if you have the ideas and the abilities and the recording environment then behringer WILL do the job)




You really don't get it, do you?

It is not an either / or -- pro / anti calculation. I too use Behringer for simple eq's and headphone amps and you will find some Behringer gear in some very prestige studios for whom the sticker price is hardly a big issue.

When you buy cheap kit (Cheap Kitt, Gadd how often I used to love that woman!) you also pay in loss of quality. Somewhere between a Rolls Royce and a Fiat Uno is a good car that is right for you. In the same way, somewhere between Erdirol and Avalon is the right pre-amp for you.
If the item is not mission critical, then one tends towards cheaper stuff. If the item is very important to what you do and it is a complicated task, then one tends to opt for better quality. But when you do buy the very, very cheapest, then you will end up with the very lowest quality. This all too often tips over into being useless.

(Remember the guy with the Behringer Eurodesk that wanted to use the direct outs for live recording, but could not because they were not direct outs at all, but just taps off the fader? That means that he spent £800 on a desk that is of no use to him.)

This calculation is one that we aught to take with us to every item we buy. The cheapest car breaks down, the cheapest bread is unhealthy, the cheapest vacuum cleaner falls to bits, the cheapest DVD player can't play all formats, the cheapest house has rising damp, the cheapest shoes are just glued together. All will be useless far sooner than something that has been built, manufactured, designed, what ever, properly.

This must not be confused with the so-called snob effect of having an item that carries a certain name and unfortunately the pro-audio market is full of these products. Items that are heavily marketed are often not the best. After all, who pays for the marketing?

Also, items that are just the most expensive in their field are not always the best. If you buy a Neve 88R you may be getting £250,000 worth of engineering excellence, but you are also getting a very unreliable desk. The very lowest THD and noise floor comes at an engineering cost, as well as a monetary cost.

If you buy a Behringer Eurodesk, you are getting a different type of engineering excellence (how to build a mixing desk for almost nothing) but you are still getting a very unreliable desk.

The law of diminishing marginal utility (aka the law of diminishing returns) tells us that if you have too much of anything, an extra one will be of little value. This law also places a very high value on those goods that you have very little of. If you are starving to death, a 50p bar of chocolate is worth everything you have.

But quality does not work like that. Too much quality may follow the law above, (the car that become a plastic gin-palace, the mixing desk that becomes a service black hole after a few years) but too little means that below a certain level, the item becomes useless.

Success is built of many components (intelligence, tenacity, attention to detail, realism, ability to judge people) and one of those components is to know when not to go to extremes.

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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9337
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207137 - 06/11/05 02:14 PM
Quote grAInger:

though if the 'newbie' buys a composer rather than downloading a vst i think he will probably at least learn more about how compressors work





now THERE we can agree 150% Wholeheartedly....

, it's one of "those" things... i would much prefer it if people weren't allowed to use presets until AFTER they knew how to operate the "real thing" .

Although, to be fair, with some synths, that would be counter productive IMHO... but for Signal processing , it's very relevant...

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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steveman



Joined: 17/03/02
Posts: 1142
Loc: London - UK
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207167 - 06/11/05 04:02 PM
Quote:

. .. as was pointed out earlier, the world is going down the toilet, i for one believe that one of the reasons for this sad state of affairs is that on this side of the world some of us have a feeling that its ok to spend enormous amounts of money on esoteric TOYS that hypnotise the user, with their price tag, into believing that they sound better and will make their owners into a PRO !!!



From what I've seen here, those that espouse the high-end gear aren't doing it for snobbery nor do believe these are esoteric 'toys', they buy it because of it's reliability and longevity. It's interesting to note that all of those arguing in favour of the higher end gear ARE Pros ie. they actually have to make a living using the gear.
If you or I as hobbyists have equipment die on us it's a pain, but we won't lose any work (ie. income) because of it. If you earn a living doing something, you buy the best tools you can afford for the job, but you also have to buy with cost in mind as you have to make a profit in the end. If these guys were happy that Behringer (or cheap DBX, Zoom whatever) would do the job reliably I'm sure they'd use it as they'd have to work less for the same income.

I fail to see how buying quality esoteric 'toys' makes the world a worse place. There's an implication in your comment that those buying expensive gear are more responsible for the world's problems than those of us that can only afford cheap gear. If you're referring generally to conspicuous comsumption, there's plenty of that right now at all price levels. Buying something that retains it's value and it still useable after a few years seems to me to be a far more beneficial thing to the world than buying a cheap item that could fail after a year, can't be fixed and ends up in a landfill.

I believe this was Max's original point, that low end manufacturer's business methods are both economically and ecologically unsustainable in the long term. If Behringer really has stimulated new demand for their products (ie. lots of new users who'd never thought of recording music before), why do their prices keep dropping? They are a business, surely it's in their interest to maximise returns? They have the brand awareness and market share at the low end, so the only reason I can see is that they're worried someone will come along and build stuff even cheaper. hardly a model for long term economic sustainability.

We have a worldwide glut of very cheap durable goods right now, mainly due to an excess of labour (ie the Chinese workforce). There's also major production overcapacity worldwide, which again is driving prices lower, at the same time raw material prices are rising, things will not get cheaper for ever.

...A behringer mixer owner


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207284 - 06/11/05 09:56 PM
Quote grAInger:

i dunno i think the behringer bashers are pretty much trounced to be honest (if you have the ideas and the abilities and the recording environment then behringer WILL do the job) . .. as was pointed out earlier, the world is going down the toilet, i for one believe that one of the reasons for this sad state of affairs is that on this side of the world some of us have a feeling that its ok to spend enormous amounts of money on esoteric TOYS that hypnotise the user, with their price tag, into believing that they sound better and will make their owners into a PRO !!!

the resale prices of behringer (and zoom etc) gear on ebay is pretty good to be honest. what do you have to lose ? except maybe your prejudices (or your illusions about your own abilities !?)

cheers
grainger




spoken by a man who's almost certainly never directly heard any of the gear which he decries, never mind actually used it.

I would point out that many here HAVE actually used both the expensive kit AND Behringer AND alternative cheap and Mid range brands, and are in a position to determine for themselves how much money they feel required to hand over to a manufacturer

and you'll find they ALL agree on the results and the majority of points under discussion here.

and NONE of them really enjoy giving money away that they could otherwise use on their own families, homes and pensions etc etc.,.....

Trounced?


I doubt it.
When's the next shuttle from planet grAInger then?


Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #207329 - 06/11/05 11:43 PM
aaah ... max you just couldnt let it lie could ya ?

im sure youve played with much more expensive toys than me, what does that prove ? what equipment have i seriously decried ? ("neumann stink" was an ironic statement ) ... yr words are like lead, they drop around you like spent pennies, or wasted shot. youve come and you didnt even realize it !! you have NOT refuted a single one of my points in any way .. we are not all studio owners, mebbe 5 percent of the forum users, its very interesting to hear yr esteemed opinions but please dont ram them down our throats. we dont all make money at it, most of us are on a seriously tight budget.

was i wrong when i said behringer gear goes for a fair price on ebay ? was i wrong when i agreed with another poster that if you have the idea, the ability and the environment you can do it with behringer ?

yes im opposed to conspicuous consumption, whats wrong with that ? and of course, i know its not black and white, but you lot keep trying to make it so .. there is NOT (IMHO) any particular RIGHT tool for any particular job (you can drive a nail with a stone, or a screw with a knife if you have to ... and some of us HAVE TO !!! )

behringer have proved consistently that there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear. they can make it for a tenth of the price, why cant anyone else ? .. they have been bashed for 'copying' other manufacturers designs, but in solid state signal processing there is only one 'correct' way to construct a mic preamp or a bell shaped eq or a VCA compressor, you cant make it any other way - you can skimp on power supplies, or hardware or whatever but the circuit only works in one way - such fundamental designs cannot belong to one company.

night night
grainger

ps theres only one bus a day to and from planet grAInger and the driver wont let anyone on who smells funny ..


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steveman



Joined: 17/03/02
Posts: 1142
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207356 - 07/11/05 12:57 AM
Quote:

but in solid state signal processing there is only one 'correct' way to construct a mic preamp or a bell shaped eq or a VCA compressor, you cant make it any other way - you can skimp on power supplies, or hardware or whatever but the circuit only works in one way - such fundamental designs cannot belong to one company.



Spoken like someone with little knowledge of electronic engineeering.

Quote:

there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear


Overpriced!! You really are on a different planet. BTW Neve & Neumann aren't designed for 'home recording'.

Like you I'm on a seriously tight budget, I just save up until I REALLY need something. But then 'saving' money isn't something any of us are supposed to now is it - we've got to keep the wheels of commerce oiled...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207358 - 07/11/05 01:00 AM
Quote grAInger:

behringer have proved consistently that there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear. they can make it for a tenth of the price, why cant anyone else ? .. they have been bashed for 'copying' other manufacturers designs, but in solid state signal processing there is only one 'correct' way to construct a mic preamp or a bell shaped eq or a VCA compressor, you cant make it any other way - you can skimp on power supplies, or hardware or whatever but the circuit only works in one way - such fundamental designs cannot belong to one company.




Not "bashed" for copying. Successfully sued (by Mackie). They steal. Pure and simple. A judge has so ordered. (And as a matter of pure personal morality I then decided not to buy their products. I don't really care if you call me sanctimonious. I can live with my own conscience).

See also their very recent withdrawal (under threat of legal action by Roland) of the launch of a bunch of Boss rip-off guitar pedals.

There are many ways of designing these things, which is why (say) a Manley compressor costs rather more than a Behringer. To say there is only one way to correctly make a mic pre-amp does, I fear, betray your lack of understanding of the topic. On that logic, Universal Audio (say) could argue they did it all in the 1960s and anything anyone else has done since (including Behringer) is a waste of space.

Actually, on reflection, that argument has some attractions....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #207422 - 07/11/05 09:25 AM
Steve,
THis argument/discussion has been flogged to death on many occasions, but if you are going to excercise your rights not to buy a company's product(s) because of some moral reason, then I hope you apply that to ALL products you buy.
Microsoft are leaders in this field so I only hope you are posting your reply from a Mac or Linux machine.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #207456 - 07/11/05 10:20 AM
"behringer have proved consistently that there is no real reason for such vastly overpriced home recording gear. they can make it for a tenth of the price, why cant anyone else ?"

Don't be silly! Behringer have proved no such thing! Consistent!! Yes, very consistently breaking down . . . noisy, and nasty gear (with some exceptions) Because to get good, reliable gear, you have to spend money on better electronics, R&D, components . . . the list goes on.

As to your point about making good recordings with Behringer & their like,
yes it is possible, but they could be BETTER, and that's what I strive for, and many others. It's no good burying your head in the sand and posting that inferior gear will be as good as great gear - and expecting a positive reaction from those of us who have used GREAT EQs, GREAT compressers, GREAT reverbs, GREAT mics & pres . . . . . . . and who have to use something dead cheap that is really bloody frustrating to use because it won't bloomin' do what you want of it!

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Steve Hill
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: BigAl]
      #207459 - 07/11/05 10:26 AM
Quote BigAl:

Steve,
THis argument/discussion has been flogged to death on many occasions, but if you are going to excercise your rights not to buy a company's product(s) because of some moral reason, then I hope you apply that to ALL products you buy.
Microsoft are leaders in this field so I only hope you are posting your reply from a Mac or Linux machine.




Mac

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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lo-fi



Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Amsterdam
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #207461 - 07/11/05 10:27 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

It's like never ordering the cheapest wine on a restarant wine list (after costs, tax, storage, serving-staff costs etc that £10 bottle means you get about 25 pence worth of wine. Buy a £12 bottle and you get £2.25 worth of wine, i.e. something nine times "better").





Uhm, no. I've worked in bars and restaurants for over 10 years and I can assure you they all have a fixed ratio of wholesale price > customer price. So if they sell a £2,50 bottle for £10, they'll sell a £10 bottle for £40.

Think about it. The way you are presenting things, they would make as much money on a £10 bottle of wine as they would on a £200 bottle of champagne.

(With the food it's different. Restaurants make very little, if anything at all, on the food. But it's the food that allows them to sell a bottle of wine for 4 times what they pay for it.)


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: lo-fi]
      #207467 - 07/11/05 10:34 AM
ANd a bottle of Becks costs far too much in the supermarket, yet unknown German brands which are every bit as good are a lot less.
Brewer pubs who sell cans for 2 quid (carry out) usually have to buy them from the brewers at an inflated price, rather than go down their local off-license.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: BigAl]
      #207471 - 07/11/05 10:39 AM
Straying wildly OT, reminds me of the business conference I was on in Italy where a bottle of beer from the hotel minibar was £4! The exact same bottle in the supermarket opposite the hotel was 33p. Got back to my room to find a handwritten note on the bed: "If you continue to use the minibar to store your own drinks there will be big trouble".

I never did find out what they had in mind, and whether this involved the local mafia bosses....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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tipex
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #207504 - 07/11/05 12:03 PM
I think sos should run a competition to see who can make the best recording with 200 quid or so of behringer gear (that'd include mics, mixer, outboard)


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #207512 - 07/11/05 12:20 PM
... who said behringer is AS GOOD AS (so called) great gear ? hey ? ... who said that ? .. NOT ME .. who said NEVE and NEUMANN were designed for 'home recording' ?? .. NOT ME

who says behringer gear is always breaking down ? .. who says it is noisy and nasty ? .. YOU LOT who are supposed to never buy behringer, so how do you know ? is there anyone else ? .. (anyone read the recent posts from extremely satisfied behringer owners talking about their midi controllers ?)

(as was said about 3 pages back) which 'professional' studio owner EVER sat down and made a choice between NEVE or BEHRINGER ?

as for yr own limited grasps of solid state electronics, of course there are 'many' ways of making a pre amp (etc) but they are ALL variations on ONE basic circuit. there is only one way of making a circuit with any particular characteristics ... so if you want to make a pre amp with particular high gain, particular low noise levels, particular wide dynamic range, particular wide frequency response, etc there is only ONE configuration of components to do it with ... am i right ? .. .

you really have all got yr heads stuck up yr back passages

bye fer now
grainger


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: tipex]
      #207514 - 07/11/05 12:21 PM
tipex - brilliant idea


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207518 - 07/11/05 12:31 PM
Quote:

as for yr own limited grasps of solid state electronics, of course there are 'many' ways of making a pre amp (etc) but they are ALL variations on ONE basic circuit. there is only one way of making a circuit with any particular characteristics ... so if you want to make a pre amp with particular high gain, particular low noise levels, particular wide dynamic range, particular wide frequency response, etc there is only ONE configuration of components to do it with ... am i right ? .. .




No. You are about as wrong as it is humanly possible to be.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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Pat
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #207552 - 07/11/05 01:42 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


Not "bashed" for copying. Successfully sued (by Mackie). They steal. Pure and simple. A judge has so ordered. (And as a matter of pure personal morality I then decided not to buy their products. I don't really care if you call me sanctimonious. I can live with my own conscience).






Quote Steve Hill:

I can shamefully reveal that The Behringer Thing was used on the last album put together in this studio. They do seem to have got that particular rip-off right!




Latter quote originally posted by someone called, I believe, "Steve Hill" on 01/10/05.

Are these two related?

I think we should be told...


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #207566 - 07/11/05 02:13 PM
Interesting posting behaviour* of grAinger. I note there are no public details on his Forum name.

Feed him a line, and he bites quite predictably.

G

*polite for troll-candidate.

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #207634 - 07/11/05 04:16 PM
Quote:

I can shamefully reveal that The Behringer Thing was used on the last album put together in this studio. They do seem to have got that particular rip-off right!





And which particular Behringer Thing would that be


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Steve Hill
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: ghr]
      #207723 - 07/11/05 07:06 PM
To clear up a running hare before it becomes a popular misconception, a Behringer reverb unit was used here on the last album made before I bought the studio. Along with several Lexicons etc as well!

I own that album and it's OK. But don't ask me to endorse the reverb unit, because I don't know which one it was or how much it was used!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207730 - 07/11/05 07:11 PM
Quote grAInger:

as for yr own limited grasps of solid state electronics, of course there are 'many' ways of making a pre amp (etc) but they are ALL variations on ONE basic circuit.




Um, why do you even entertain the somewhat endearing illusion that "solid state electronics" have anything to do with the price of eggs? Most audiophiles spit on the term solid state, and with good reason...

Grainger, you may well be an interesting guy with interesting opinions, but when in a hole, stop digging. For your own sake. Please.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #207808 - 07/11/05 09:37 PM
guy, gis a break mate, what dya want to know about me ? search the net, ive been around for years .. i will admit, i have some opinions which arent good for me, ie they make me look uncool, so what ? is that all you lot are here for ? im no expert, except when it comes to what i do.

i dont see what hole im in ? i was just responding to some half baked opinions from a scottish studio owner.

nuff said
grainger


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #207816 - 07/11/05 09:54 PM
Quote grAInger:

guy, gis a break mate, what dya want to know about me ? search the net, ive been around for years .. i will admit, i have some opinions which arent good for me, ie they make me look uncool, so what ? is that all you lot are here for ? im no expert, except when it comes to what i do.

i dont see what hole im in ? i was just responding to some half baked opinions from a scottish studio owner.

nuff said
grainger





Andy makes a living from his opinions. You don't. That's all there is to it. It's nothing personal. Really.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #207906 - 08/11/05 03:32 AM

Happy birthday Max.

I don't suppose you will be treating yourself to a nice new bit of Behringer kit then.

Didn't really need a question mark that, did it?

Have a good one.

Birthday bump(s)

Pensionable?


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trackstar



Joined: 25/08/05
Posts: 250
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #208002 - 08/11/05 10:59 AM
did i read it wrong, or is the opening thread the most vulgar piece of snobbery ever to disgrace these boards? i thought the 'tonmeister is good everything else is sh!t' thread he posted a while back tread a fine line. but this takes the cake.

whats your contribution to off topic? 'Terraced housing is sh!t, heres why...' or how about 'People on minimum wage should be shot'. You might have a good education, but your people skills are severely lacking. get out more.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: trackstar]
      #208027 - 08/11/05 11:29 AM
A few punctuation and writing mistakes there. So I've corrected it for you:

Did I read it wrong, or is the opening thread the most vulgar piece of snobbery ever to disgrace these boards? I thought the 'tonmeister is good everything else is sh!t' thread he posted a while back, trod a fine line. But this takes the cake.

What's your contribution to off-topic? 'Terraced housing is sh!t, here's why...' or how about 'People on minimum wage should be shot'. You might have a good education, but your people skills are severely lacking: Get out more.


And you make not a lot of sense: I don't think your 'thesis' is correct.

G


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The real musiclover]
      #208054 - 08/11/05 12:10 PM
Quote The real musiclover:


Happy birthday Max.

I don't suppose you will be treating yourself to a nice new bit of Behringer kit then.

Didn't really need a question mark that, did it?

Have a good one.

Birthday bump(s)

Pensionable?




Cheers matey.... Not quite pension territory yet

let's see, RME AD/DA, another POD, and Terry Pratchett's latest tome, and a late bacon butty Breakfast are so far the day's profits

have to wait for the Kids to come home from School before I get any more



Lets just all agree to differ and Raise a glass to each other's health this evening eh?

Salut grAInger


Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #208086 - 08/11/05 12:53 PM
Well, Well! Happy Birthday, Max. Have a good one, and keep the 'phones off the hook!

G


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9337
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #208098 - 08/11/05 01:06 PM
Quote Guy Johnson:

Well, Well! Happy Birthday, Max. Have a good one, and keep the 'phones off the hook!

G




Wish I'd thought of it earlier mate... I've already done 1 Remix-recut to new vid edit this morning...

in MY religion, no one has to work on their Birthday !

Sorry chaps.... got a Bit OT there...

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #208105 - 08/11/05 01:12 PM


--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #208252 - 08/11/05 04:41 PM
hey happy birthday maximus ... i hope it was a really good one ... have a pint for me

cheers
grainger


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: trackstar]
      #208264 - 08/11/05 04:52 PM
Quote trackstar:

did i read it wrong, or is the opening thread the most vulgar piece of snobbery ever to disgrace these boards?




oh no it gets much more vulgar round here (i remember the thread - piracy is as bad as burglary - or even piracy is as bad as raping young girls !!)... i realize they are not real opinions in the end, something akin to trolling actually. i dont see how anyone with half a mind could think they can spout such bull and expect everyone to agree. its what comes from living life in a so called "control" room ...

grainger


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #208276 - 08/11/05 05:11 PM
Something which stimulates discussion can't be a bad thing really.

Everybody agreeing?

Don't be silly.

In fact I completely disagree with you last post.



--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.

Edited by BigAl (08/11/05 05:12 PM)


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9337
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #208518 - 09/11/05 02:23 AM
Thing is grAinger, largely, this "discussion" has largely missed the point of my original utterance, which Andy lifted and used to start his dissertation

My Point was that what I loosely called "the Behringer phenomenon" has shifted the emphasis of our industry market from quality, innovation and technical excellence AND price, , to Price, price, price and price.,....

eventually this MUST change, or we will end up with no choice other than Behringer (or someone even cheaper and worse, less technically proficient ) , and someone like Neve, Uber expensive, REALLY VERY VERY VERY GOOD, but fiscally unattainable to anyone other than international broadcasters

it's easy to see the effects if you've been "shopping" seriously at a range of market levels for the last 10 years or so....

the number of manufacturers and breadth of product range is shrinking overall, SOME are growing as they absorb others and partly fill the voids left by collapses, downsizing and other reversals of fortune of their competitors.

but overall, the picture is one of a declining market in a vicious circle

this is NOT a good thing

the trend can (and probably will) end up in a defacto monopoly and this will utterly remove the need for competition on price or quality....

at which point, EVERYONE gets screwed, from bedroom hobbyist to Serious pro.


Just go and do a serious statistical study of product and market trends over the last 20 years, and then perhaps you'll need to re-appraise your position on "The Behringer bashers"

this isn't an argument about whether some decent results can be coaxed form less than ideal kit....

it's about the eventual extinction of almost anything but that less than ideal level of equipment.

A market where there is only a choice between Behringer or Neve is not one I look forward to., (names used as a generic example not specifics)

and nor should you.


Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #208531 - 09/11/05 05:55 AM
hi max

fine lets start again (did you have a good birthday ?) ... i still dont agree, i cant see any other area of commerce where that has happened, in supermarkets they still sell 'the best' range next to the 'bettabuy' range ... but none of these analogies will help us when it comes to studio gear, and thats maybe the point - STUDIO gear - in the last ten years there are very few STUDIOs left to sell the high end gear to ? (wether thats good or bad is another thread) .. it has shifted to become a consumer market with behringer, edirol, zoom etc jostling for their share of the home recording boom.

can i remind you i NEVER said behringer are as good as NEVE and i would be as sad as the next muso if we did end up in the position you describe. i also agree stuff shouldnt be made that is uneconomical or impractical to repair (though we are already in that position with a lot of hi fi and cars etc already) i personally have only one piece of behringer, my other gear is made by rode, echo, joe meek and blue - all of whom make a range of very good cheap gear along with the higher end stuff

the home recording market IS a different market to the studio market though, i hope you can agree with this, and i still think for some one starting out, they CAN get the results with behringer and as they maybe unsure wether they really have the ideas or the abilities, i for one could not recommend they spend anymore than that to begin with. there is something distinctly distasteful about our consumerist nightmare of a culture where people think theyve got to get 'the best' to begin with, and that it will somehow make up for their lack of ability (witness the 90's boom in fitness fads ... all those expensive trainers !!! )

im not going to go on much more than this now, this has been a very interesting thread, but i would say in closing i think its unfair to label behringer (or any other cheap gear) as 'noisy and nasty' when there really is no evidence for that (it does sound like snobbery, sorry) .. there has been more threads on here about motu and mackie gear breaking down than behringer im sure ...

cheers
grainger


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #208631 - 09/11/05 12:23 PM
Quote:

in supermarkets they still sell 'the best' range next to the 'bettabuy' range




If you take the usual market leaders of Tesco, Sainsbury and Asda, the answer is no they do not. Exactly that which Max was warning against took place. There used to be bakers in every village and town and each was proud of the quality of their best bread. Now, although Tesco has improved its bread selection, it falls well below the standard of a good baker.

The same is true for fish. All the shellfish are dead. Indeed most of the fish on display at all three came to the shop frozen (which destroys the taste). But because shoppers are becoming used to the taste (or rather the lack of taste) of fish from Tesco, they shun the local fishmonger and he goes out of business. The result is that we now can only get fresh fish in a handful of shops in the UK.

Something that every person used to have access to in every high street in Britain has gone.

This is not a snobism thing as this lack of choice effects poor people more than it effects rich people. The rich will always have access to the best food. But now go out onto the High Street and try to buy a freshly smoked kipper, something every family in Britain had access to just a few years ago.

I could go on with every foodstuff on the shelves of the big three, from flour to butter, from cheese to chocolate.

Quote:

there are very few STUDIOs left to sell the high end gear to




Not true. There are more studios around today than ever before. What is diminishing is the number of good quality commercial studios. Private studios of the very highest quality seem to be everywhere. Mark Knopfler has just spent £10m on a new studio.

Quote:

there has been more threads on here about motu and mackie gear breaking down than behringer




I doubt it.

But Grainger has made several important points throughout this debate.

Firstly snobbism

A commercial studio has to use snobbism as one of the weapons of war. This is for the very simple reason that as a commercial studio, you have to be able to offer the customer something that they do not have access to at home. Even if a Behringer microphone would be every bit as good as a Neuman 149, you cannot charge people money for using something that cost £100 or less. I have had people come to us because we have a Lexicon 960L and then not use it. Go figure!

And yes, there has been a silly pissing contest between some desk manufacturers in the totally misguided belief that there is a demand for ultimate quality, throwing every other consideration to the Four Winds.

The customer looks at price, reliability, features and quality.

Amek, AMS-Neve and SSL chased the holy grail of building the best analogue desk in the World. They wasted vast sums developing products that the market was not prepared to take. All three companies stumbled and fell (into new ownership) as an indirect result of placing quality and features above the other two needs.

Sony thought that they could dominate the pro-audio market after the success of their DASH recorders and launched the Oxford. This baby did everything and I do mean everything, but almost nobody wanted it.

If you chase one or two of the magic four above everything else, the product suffers.

Secondly mic pre design:

You stated earlier that there is only one way to make a mic pre-amp if it is to be any good. I wrote that you were "as wrong as it is humanly possible to be." But in a perverse way, you were right, there is only one way to build a decent mic pre - very cheaply. All the cheap mic pres of this World are built in the same way and they all colour the sound and cause distortion, especially in phantom power mics. That means that there would be little point in putting a good mic into a cheap desk as the pre-amp will bring both down to its poor level of performance.

(Schoeps produced several interesting papers on this subject and a series of lectures at the Tonmeister Tage a couple of years back.)

The same goes for the eqs. A simple filter is very easy to build and costs almost nothing. A filter that does not produce phase anomalies is very difficult to build. That is (one of) the reasons so many people believe that one should avoid boosting a frequency - as you bring up one band, the rest of the signal is subjected to a comb-filter effect and the whole thing begins to sound as if you have shoe boxes on your ears.

So you may not be right today, but one day all other pre-amp designs may have to give way to that pseudo-balanced thing with a couple of ICs running all the eq and auxes. It's a nasty noise, but we will know no better.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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Dishpan



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 813
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #208691 - 09/11/05 01:51 PM
> Just go and do a serious statistical study of product and market trends over the last 20 years
> A market where there is only a choice between Behringer or Neve is not one I look forward to.,

Max, I'm not sure I agree with the thought that we'll be left with only the ultra low and ultra high ends, as I don't think the current market place reflects this at all. To me, there's FAR more choice now than there was a few years ago, at all price points, whether it be mics, pres, effects or whatever.

Of course, some areas of our industry have suffered, you can't find a hardware sampler anymore for example, but I really don't think that's part of the same argument.


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Simon (aka UK03878)



Joined: 02/11/05
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Loc: Munching a Carrot, The Fens
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #208715 - 09/11/05 02:41 PM
... and this bring us to another option.
DIY.
I bought bits 'n' bobs over the space of 3 years in the late 1990s
I got all the bits of kit that FM and SoS and what my mates were raving about.
As a consequence and since then as a home recordist (and ex-pro/semipro musician as most of us are..) I have learnt more and more about recording and my ears have gotten more and more attuned to what to listen for.
And I am not very impressed with the £20,000 of kit I have (it all adds up....!!)
I can remember how things sounded in professional studios I have recorded in and compare them to what I get.

Last year I made the decision not to buy any more kit BUT to build my own.
This was to faciliate two things...
1. To be able to have real high end gear at afforable prices
2. To teach myself how all this stuff works.. adn thus use it better

The teaching bit is coming along very nicely indeed.
The problem with the gear lust still exists - although now I get more excited about getting a Carnhill transformer, Elma switch, EAO illuminated pushbuttons and trying to find decent engravers.

oh - and in my village we have a lovely baker, two butchers, greengrocers, farmers who deliver 25kg of potatoes for £3.50..
Fish... have to go to the local Loch Fyne for counter sales for that


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #209016 - 10/11/05 05:23 AM
some good points there ... (though i dont know how you, mr byre, can be so disingenuous to say there are more studios than ever, when ive seen you on more than one thread berating the closure of yet another studio - studio culture is coming to an end along with a lot of the so called 'music business' in general, i for one wont shed any tears about that)

GEAR LUST - how many times is there some sad discussion on these boards along the lines "oh dear im really sad, i dont make any music anymore i just buy expensive equipment i wish i still had my atari/analogue synth/cassette multitracker" ? ... well if the whole market was demystified and people could see the important things are ideas, ability and environment NOT GEAR then it might save some of us from such embarrassing ennui ..

CHOICE - just because a tesco is a big smelly dehumanised place doesnt mean they dont have masses more choice than any little corner shop and generally at a better price (the point about bread is daft, when i go to my corner shop their bread is always stale 'happy shopper' stuff at 4 times the price of tesco, and the milk is always sour) - the choice in musical gear is enormous nowadays, i cant see it getting less either at any price point.

DESIGN - though my original statement was a bit dogmatic - there is really only one way to make any particular circuit because electronics only works one way, but i know there are a lot of subtleties in power supply design and pcb construction. take a fuzz box for instance all of them are based on forcing a signal through a diode. i dont see how behringer can be slated for copying such a design, when you have people on ebay selling their so called 'boutique' designs for 50 quid using the "same circuit that jimmy hendrix used" with 50 pence worth of components in it !!! - if you admit theres only one way to make a crap pre amp how many ways do you think there is to make a good one ?

i am massively in favour of cheap gear (hand in hand with the good stuff) because as far as i can see the only real problems nowadays all come down to a collective lack of imagination. maybe something to do with tv or whatever, but at least the more people who get the chance to have a go, the more people who shouldnt really have this stuff, the more chance statistically that we will get something really new ... i think there is much more interesting music about now than ever and maybe some of this IS down to cheap gear opening up the playing field

monitors for a fiver a mic for a tenner ? .. yes please

grainger


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