i never really used to care either way, but now i absolutely HATE people who use cracked software!!!!

i was talking to a couple guys who wanted to do an electronic sideproject with me, and they were talking about all the software they had and i said it must have costed them a fortune. they said, "nah i didn't spend a [ ****** ] penny on this [ ****** ]." and laughed about it. it made me hate them. they don't even TRY to buy what they can, they just take everything for free.

so then you have people like me, who work hard and probably spend more than they should on buying all this stuff, and some little puke bag just sits around collecting it all illegally. i never realized how much i hated this before!

last night my girlfriend came home and said that she had a present for me. she handed me a cracked copy of sampletank 2 XL for mac osx, which is a program i've been meaning to buy when i can afford it, and i threw it in the garbage. i hate parasites like these people.

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i use illogic 7

Meh, you have a point, but to be fair, its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software. My 'theory' on it is that I'll buy it when I'm making money from it, or when I can afford to buy it (ie, when I'm in a full time job earning lots of money)... at least people are getting used to these systems and when they can actually afford them they might go and buy them, because they've had good performance from their cracked version. At least we're playing on the same team a bit.

Quote all_on_black:

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but to be fair, its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software. My 'theory' on it is that I'll buy it when I'm making money from it ...

---

I can't afford a Bentley Continental GT. Think I'll just go and steal one until I can afford to buy one.

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

that is [ ****** ] retarded!!!!

so people who actually work to pay for this stuff have to buy it, just to support the companies so that freeloading leaches can take whatever they want?!? and they DON'T pay for it. they just downlaod it and that is that. every time a new version comes out they just download again.

so if you are a student who can't afford it then use buy a cut down version until you can. these companies don't owe you anything! yeah, i'm just gonna walk into a restaurant, hold it up, and serve people and if it starts making me money, then i'll maybe buy one of my own. the restaurant owes that to me. it is my birth right.

people like you make me sick. if everyone was like you there would be NO software because the companies would have no meny to develop it. and, if it wasn't for so many little pukes like you cracking everything the software would run faster because there wouldn't be so much code involved in security. a steinberg guy told me that half of the code in SX is used solely for security. he said without it it would run a LOT faster and smoother. but hey, they owe it to you. why don't you go into a store and steal some rackmount gear and a mixing console to? they'll understand...just show them your student ID card.

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i use illogic 7

When i first started out, i downloaded a crack copy of Cubase VST, and yeah i decided i liked it and was right for me so i went out and bought (the much more expensive) SL3.

If i hadn't tried Cubase VST i wouldn't have even considered buying SL3, hasn't that just earnt them £250?

What i did may have been illegal, but i don't see how it did any harm to the company.

But yeah, i do agree when it comes to downloading masses of software and using them, sometimes commercially, that it is stealing.

Quote:

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its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software

---

Two points :

a) no - but the college that they attend can and does
b) does the phrase 'educational discount' ring any bells?

There are so many 'cut down' versions and alternative freeware / shareware out there that the 'I can't afford it' argument doesn't hold up ( ignoring the obvious ethical and legal issues ).

unfortunatly cracked software is just one of the things that is an accepted vice in this industry,
the main reason i think is down to:

-the software must be fairly easy to crack (hey im no expert at this so i may be wrong)

-a few well known artists have made their name using cracked software (even publicising the fact). this gives it a slightly glamerous edge (remebering that the pistols were notorious for having stolen gear shows this isnt a new problem, nor is it limited to software)

- their is no deterent against this piracy, heck i can go onto ebay right now and buy a "best of music software" CD or even trawl the web and get most of it for free. i doubt it very much if i ended up with getting some handcuffs slapped on me.


now im a student doing a MT course and a year ago i shelled out nearly 2 grand on a DAW and small set up, now i could only afford Cubase SL at the time but this was fine for what i was doing at the time. mind u i could do with the upgrade to SX now and thats somthing iam quite prepared to pay for
at college however there are various cracked copies of most of the major sequencers, VST's and softsynths doing the rounds, and i would be a liar if i said i hadnt used some of them. but i try not to make use of them to much and if i like a certain piece of software i do have the intention of buying it (as i have done with a couple).

mind you i do find it strange the way this piracy seems to generate such bad feeling in the community, id bet that a good deal of "complainers" have copied CD's in their collection, or have a box full of copied tapes lying around somwhere, or a few bootlegs of their favorite bands. piracy is piracy and there is no difference. And untill the software houses can prevent it im afraid we all have to live with it.

>a) no - but the college that they attend can and does

Wanna bet?

>b) does the phrase 'educational discount' ring any bells?

Does not exist on all software. And on some that it might it aint much of a discount.

For example the college I am attending the majority of the soud software and ahrdware for our department is provided by two students, myself and one other.

Now that being said I stopped using cracked software in exchange for some OSS software. I own a copy of PT but I hardly use it anymore in favor of Ardour. I also own a variety of other things that I have paid for, so dont think I rip it all myself.

I personally dont complain about students using cracked software myself, when they cross into the world of doing commercial work that is where I think the line needs to be drawn. The reason for this is often students cant get experience using the software any other way. And at least in my line of work one needs to have a portfolio of work built up before I leave college, meaning I need to know software and be able to use it efficiently and quickly. I make a decent amount more than the average college student because of how much I work and the fact I am already working in sound, but most of those I go to school with cant afford the 500-1000 quid on decent software just to learn it. However on the flip side they also dont mind paying for good software and I dont think they will continue using ripped stuff when they can afford decent. A good example of this is two others in sound with me in our department started with cracked software but as they got jobs have upgraded to full software they used while cracked due to knowing it and knowing its capabilities.

Seablade

Quote Dave B:

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Quote:

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its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software

---

Two points :

a) no - but the college that they attend can and does
b) does the phrase 'educational discount' ring any bells?

There are so many 'cut down' versions and alternative freeware / shareware out there that the 'I can't afford it' argument doesn't hold up ( ignoring the obvious ethical and legal issues ).

---

Yeah, I wish I could get those discounts that are offered for students. Granted, I often get a military discount. But, it often doesn't even touch the discounts offered for students. Piracy is a crime just like any other. I actually have a feeling of pride when I work hard to get what I want. This generation today is *&^ing sorry. Oh, and just because I feel like it, they are pussies, too.

this guy i am talking about is a dj and has a small studio. he drives a benz. his parents bought him a house. he has every piece of software you can think of and he hasn't paid a cent. that is [ ****** ] and i don't care how you look at it.

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i use illogic 7

Yes, piracy is illegal and wrong, and yes, the fact that some fraction of software users did not pay for their software means that I paid a tiny bit more for mine. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen. That doesn't mean we'd all have better equipment in that perfect world, though, and it doesn't mean that software companies would be enormously profitable.

It's not a perfect world, of course, and theft is as old as the concept of ownership. It's not going away. Everyone is free to feel however they like about it, but it doesn't seem particularly productive to raise one's blood pressure over it.

Two additional points--I look forward to the demise of quasi-homophobic epithets like "pussy," and I second the notion that student discounts are often negligible or non-existant.

Quote:

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I look forward to the demise of quasi-homophobic epithets like "pussy,"

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ummm.....ok. if you use the 'find' feature in your browser you will see that you are the only one who used that word, or anything resembling it anywhere in this post. but thank you for that interjection.

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i use illogic 7

OK, it was "pussies," not "pussy" (...and therefore immune to searches using the latter term). Two posts above mine, by jaffi, toward the end. Sorry for the confusion, but my point remains.

ahhhh......a jackass i am. hehehehehe

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i use illogic 7

I love the way that you attached homophobic to that. I am very open to just about every way of life, but when people are too weak to work for their keep I think they are just that... weak. I used the word pussy because it is a very common word to get the point across. But, instead, I guess I have to write a full paragraph to do that. To tell you the truth, I hear that word come out of the mouths of my gay friends just as much as my straight friends. I guess they're "quasi-homophobic". In either case, I think todays generation has lost a lot of what makes people true and honorable. They have lost the concept of hard work. They all want everything, but aren't willing to sacrifice for what they want. Most of the successful people in this world (I am talking about trully successful), have had many failures and hard knocks throughout their lives. The thing that kept them going was their dreams. Todays generation has the same dreams, but they want it for free. I think I went more in depth than what was called for in this thread, but it still very much relates.

Edited by jaffi (04/12/05 07:20 AM)

i credit discount hookers for my success.

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i use illogic 7

It`s a shame that in the middle of all this searching nobody searched to see if this subject had been discussed before. It has.

Every few months someone gets on here and either whines about people cracking software or whines about software houses wanting too much money for a product "so you have to pirate it".

Face it, there will always be pirates/software thieves and nothing we say or do will change it. Equally, many of the software companies are total rip off merchants (are you listening Bill gates?)

This is supposed to me a music technology forum, so can we just discuss music please, guys? This is a total waste of bandwidth.


One small point before I go look at something more useful, I recently bought an Emu 1212m and the "lite" versions of all the software bundled with it really are more than adequate to try before you buy and in no real sense crippled to where they are unusable as used to be the case.

This alone shows that the manufacturers of software seem to be listening and taking a more enlightened approach to slowing down piracy, but it also makes the argument for stealing software in the first place look pretty flimsy.
One of the cheapest top quality sound cards available, bundled with very usable versions of most of the major players` software including plugins and soft synths.

I am currently learning Ableton AND Sonar & "sort of" enjoying the experience, but it does all rather get in the way of actually making music. Embarrassingly, I only bought the Emu so I could import audio into the pc for mastering and cd cutting purposes, which I can`t do on my hard disk recorder!

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Here we go again.

If you use cracked software you really shouldn't have a problem with people stealing your music without paying for it.

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Nik
Godin, Axon, Tonelab, Repeater & the skin of my teeth!

Something not to forget, particularly on this forum. Is that music and music software that youve purchased legitimately, actually sounds better

Quote IvanSC:

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Face it, there will always be pirates/software thieves and nothing we say or do will change it. Equally, many of the software companies are total rip off merchants (are you listening Bill gates?)

This is supposed to me a music technology forum, so can we just discuss music please, guys? This is a total waste of bandwidth.

---

Mr Bill gates can afford to charge whatever prices he likes due to the fact that he created the product, you know burt that midnight oil to enable us all to do what we do now on PC's! Of course you're now going to tell me that you have an OS in development that will not be a rip-off right?! ;-)

It is only in everyones interest that issues regarding fraud, no matter what shape or form they come in, are discussed in this public arena as theft is never too far behind in a public arena where products are offered for sale or purchase.

Beya

Quote Dr. Fister:

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but now i absolutely HATE people who use cracked software!!!!

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How can you hate people when you don't know them ?

ivan shut the [ ****** ] up. does it really matter if it gets discussed in a DISCUSSION board again? does it bother you that much? just scroll past it. it takes up maybe, what, a centimeter of your screen? dear god!!!!!!

i don't ever want to hear anyone talk about audio interfaces, or upgrades on here ever again. i can't tell you how sick i am of seeing the same conversations. this board used to be pretty cool, but these days it is getting lamer and lamer.

Quote:

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How can you hate people when you don't know them ?

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that doesn't even deserve a response.

Edited by Dr. Fister (04/12/05 09:15 AM)

Oh crap, here we go. Emotions are starting to come into play. That is my ticket to leave.

This is always a difficult topic to reconcile. What also needs to be considered is that many of these companies that we feel so sorry for are also participating in theft. I recently had a system which I have been working on for 5 years stolen by the market leader and copied to the level that even their presentation materials contain slides lifed straight from my presentations. Whilst I would never condone the use of pirate software with this being my livelihood, there is a huge hypocracy when software houses take the holier than thou position to make you feel sorry for them. Their objectives here are purely financial. Each one of these companies steal ideas and concepts from each other and uses them to line their own pockets. You could argue that downloading and using a pirate version is far better that a company who steal and then make money out of this theft. I would even admit myself that as an application designer, I keep a close eye on competitors products and have in some cases used their ideas and concepts to improve my product. Yes I have to recode and redesign, but in effect the theft is still there. Where do you draw the line?

One area of IP ownership I find quite interesting at present is the production of software and convolution models of real synths and outboard gear. Companies hide behind false names of these models to avoid legal issues but leave enough clues to indicate exactly what they have copied. Should Neve or Manley view anyone with a Liquid Channel as a thief?

fister, you may have good points, but as i've read twice this morning you just stand up and shout and rant. Your well intentioned and probably right on opinion is lost in your inanity.....

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

aha, a good point raised about these modeled softsynths, channels etc

i suppose we all forget that at the end of the day, a great deal of todays music industry relies on "theft" in one form of another, weather it be a modeled channel strip or guitar amp, a sample half inched from an old abba track (i know you subscribe madonna, put yer ass away!)or a few DJ's in their bedrooms with a cracked copy of Cubase and reason,

if it furthers the industy and the enjoyment of music, who are we to knock it?

Quick! Everyone eat an apple and maybe the doctor will go away!

A few points:
Cracking software is piracy,...and pirates have been on the water long before the web. As long as there're pirates on the water they'll be pirates on the web. (yahh!)

Someone said that 50%, hmm.., of the software is usually security. Have they not realised that whatever they put on, within a few months someone will have got round it. Why don't they save money on the developement to soften the loses from piracy? Mr. Bill Gates might be charging lots but he's got it into his head, have you noticed they still just use product keys and activation? So they save money and have a product that can perform better!!

If a company had total control over its products so that they couldn't be cracked. Do you think the prices would be where they are? ... Personally I doubt it.

And a final one on the people who have been comparing it to people using your music with out crediting you... People are not taking this software as their own and trying to say they created it, they are simply using it for pleasure. So for the comparison if I were making music for pleasure or atleast trying to get a deal then I'd be very happy for any of you to take my music and spread it around...get it as far as you can please! When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!.

Now I must leave you all as the 12:15 delevery lorry to turnkey is about to pass my door and I fancy getting a new mixing desk*

Daniel.


*This was a joke please don't cruifie me.

I want to add my 2p to this discussion.

I am an Audio Technology student and my course requires me to make use of, among other things, Cubase SX, now, the MIDI suite in uni is only open between 8am and 5pm weekdays, if i need to work outside of that im pretty much screwed unless i have a cracked copy of the software.

This still doesnt really help me by the way, as i need to be able to send SysEx to the SW1000 sound cards in the MIDI suite - which i dont have one of. But i can still write all the MIDI and add in the SysEx data to be tested and tweaked when i can get into the suite.

If i ever began to make money from cracked software i would immediatly buy it, in fact there is a clause in the agreement for student use of the uni's facilities that we cannot profit from use of their software etc.

My opinion, and has been for a long time, is that software should be free to students on an extended trial - which runs out on the day of graduation - this means students would be using the software legally, because lets face it about 5%, if that, of students can actually afford to spend £500 on bit of software plus anything else that's needed.

I am lucky in that i can get a £4,100 loan but out of that comes £350 in tuition fees and £2,100 in accommodation fees. I have to live on the rest of that for an entire year.

I'd much rather concentrate on buying kit (such as mics) if and when i can, rather then making sure the software i need to do coursework outside of uni hours is legal.

If not that then maybe the suite should be 24hours? Or the software should be available like the universities Antivirus and VB.Net programming suite - on a site license and any student can take a copy and legally use it (as long as not for profit)

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David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk

Yo Fister,

I agree with most of what you say but I wanted to make an observation if I may. Your posts have an air of confrontation in them. These discussions can be very interesting and productive but when we take on an attacking posture it forces an adversarial approach which often kills an otherwise useful topic.

*rant on*
But I digress. Back on topic, I feel the people who make money by using stolen software are the worst. It is the same as shoplifting and then selling the goods at another store. These professionals would not like to have an artist stiff them for 100's of hours of studio time yet many of them have no trouble stiffing the software companies for even more by ripping them off.
*rant off*

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www.gpsystems.ca

Firstly, contradicting my first point, but most Linux software is developed for free, purely because the people making it love what they do. So surely £500 PLUS is a bit expensive for something that is not *that* much more functional than Ardour on Linux, which comes for free. Now I realise mentioning that, I have "no excuse" for pirated software, but as others have said about themselves, I have NO intention of using it commercially. I use it so I can get used to it for when I might use it to make money from. I would never have bought Sonar if I didn't try it first (not that I have bought it - yet), but its an overlooked program, and if I had never used it, I would have probably gone down the Pro Tools/Cubase route, so therefore, out of my "piracy", Sonar will get extra business in the future.

Back to Linux. Recently I have been having a look around the Linux forum, to see if it is a viable alternative for audio, and, as it stands, for someone who has never had experience with Linux, it's quite simply not ready yet. I will be the first to jump when it IS ready, and I WILL be willing to pay for the software, because generally it doesnt cost too much. The problem with Linux is documentation. There are very few people who actually know how to go about using linux for audio, and this is what puts people like me off. Through Uni I will end up using Linux, so when I become more familiar with it, it will become viable. Linux will become the place to go for audio for people with less money, but its not there just yet.

Also, as others have said, student discounts don't make much difference to software prices, if at all. Usually the most you can expect is 10%, if any.

Yesterday I went to an open day for a University I'm applying to (Cardiff, Wales, if your interested), to do Computer Science, so, I'm not going to get much Pro Tools experience there am I. Another point that was brought up, is that students who come from the "more well off" households, who get the lowest Grants and Loans, by government recomendation actually end up MINUS £20 each month. I happen to be in this position (next year anyway). So, unless you can magic some money from -£20, I don't think my 10% discount is going to help.

That might have been a bit rambled, but I havnt been up long.

Gareth

A couple of points:

As far as the big software houses go, this is more a commercial than a moral arguement. Its a well known truth that all big software manufacturers would rather people were using cracked versions of thier software that legit versions of thier competitor's software. in other words, market share is valued higher than profits.

Why? i would guess that the people behind these companies are jostling for position with an eye on the future - because before too long, no-one will physically 'own' any software. Instead we'll lease it down a broadband connection whenever we need to use it, and pay on a subscriptions basis. This isnt possible right now but with broadband takeup increasing the way it is I bet it's only a couple of years away. (and before anyone pipes up, I know the software we buy now isnt owned by us, thats why i put the word in inverted commas).

I would welcome a subscription-based payment system for software - in fact, i practice a similar sort of thing at the moment. Software i use regularly I buy, but i do have some warez programs.. typically plug ins & VSTis that i very rarely use and that arent worth my while buying. I would imagine there are a lot of people are in this position. Apart from anything else, I dont put the time into learning something properly unless i pay for it.

To the people above taking a taliban-esque line against anyone using warez: I take your point with regard to serial nickers of software, but I'm convinced those people are exploiting a tempoary technological loophole that will close up once subscription-based software services become viable. And anyway, i feel more pity than hate for those kinds of people - they tend to have oodles of software that they dont have a clue how to use, rather like those soulseek ghosts who spend all thier time downloading music they will never get around to listening to.

As for the likes of me, i hope you apply the same harsh verdict to anyone who borrows expensive hardware from thier friends for one-off projects because the principle is exactly the same. I'm in a competitive business and i cant afford to pay a few hundred quid for a piece of software I'm only going to use a handful of times. When a subscription-based payment system becomes viable I'll embrace it, but until then I'll use warez.

And anyone who thinks eradicating piracy will result in big software manufacturers lowering their prices is living in a dreamworld. Commerce doesnt work that way. I'm sure the software companies do spend a reasonable amount combatting piracy (although not as much as they make out), but if that cost was to be eradicated, they would continue to charge you the price they do now and pocket the difference.

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www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox

Quote dave-lew99:

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If not that then maybe the suite should be 24hours? Or the software should be available like the universities Antivirus and VB.Net programming suite - on a site license and any student can take a copy and legally use it (as long as not for profit)

---

A site licence does exist for some audio software, so you'd have to check out if your university dept owns one.

I think the problem with your opening hours is one that students come across regularly. I'm lucky because our dept is 24hrs, however students are not always accustomed to working 9-5! Also, that doesn't take into account that the student-computer ratio.

Quote dave-lew99:

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I am an Audio Technology student and my course requires me to make use of, among other things, Cubase SX, now, the MIDI suite in uni is only open between 8am and 5pm weekdays, if i need to work outside of that im pretty much screwed unless i have a cracked copy of the software.

---

Tough. Although it is a long time since I was a student I work with saxophone students a lot who have to own a soprano,alto and tenor sax which costs more than several computers and legitimate software. When I was a student I wanted to learn one instrument I just could not afford. You have no God given right to software. You have a right to steal food if you are starving and that is the only way you can stay alive but software is different.

Quote all_on_black:

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I use it so I can get used to it for when I might use it to make money from. I would never have bought Sonar if I didn't try it first (not that I have bought it - yet), but its an overlooked program, and if I had never used it, I would have probably gone down the Pro Tools/Cubase route, so therefore, out of my "piracy", Sonar will get extra business in the future.

---

This is wrong wrong wrong. If the company is offering a time based demo of the application, which most companies do now, then fare enough and that puts a close to having to used a 'cracked' versions of the software for 'testing' purposes. If the business model of a company is that you have to purchase their software before you can use it then you have 2 choices, you either buy it or you don't. But denying the company out of royalty for a product they created becaue you feel you have a God given right to 'quality test' the product before hand just doesn't cut the mustad.

Put yourself in their shoes, you are selling the product but no sales are being made because everyone and their cat is 'evaluating' your product. If you're not prepared to pay for the product don't use it, simple!!

Beya

Excuse me?

I believe it is a choice of someone if they want to learn an expensive instrument (ie. Sax)

If it was up to me i wouldnt be using Cubase i would use a free alternative unfortunatly i HAVE to use Cubase i have no choice in the matter, in the same way i HAD to use Photoshop for an assignment and VB.Net.

At least they're not forcing me to use logic [shudders]

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David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk

Quote dave-lew99:

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Excuse me?

I believe it is a choice of someone if they want to learn an expensive instrument (ie. Sax)

If it was up to me i wouldnt be using Cubase i would use a free alternative unfortunatly i HAVE to use Cubase i have no choice in the matter, in the same way i HAD to use Photoshop for an assignment and VB.Net.

At least they're not forcing me to use logic [shudders]

---

I didn’t realise they pressganged people into becoming students

Tim ;o)

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

no Dave-Lew... you do not HAVE to use Cubase SX....

A) the assignment can be quite easily done on SL, or maybe even SE.

B) have you even bothered to find out about educational discounts and the lower versions??


Colleges make no secret of what they use, and it is suggested that all those wishing to study equip themselves with the required software and hardware if they're going to work outside of college hours.

AND there's usually a means of doing so via the College.... at the best available educational prices... sometimes, slightly debatably , minus VAT as well.

if you've been down the pub more than 2-3 times this term, you could easily have paid for a copy of SE , perhaps even SL at educational prices.

oh, and guess what... there are significant (like 50% ) discounts on Apple software available form the apple store provided you access it from the college network.

this includes Logic.

Grow up and accept some responsibility for a change.,

YOU CHOSE TO DO A MUSIC TECH RELATED COURSE.

It is your responsibility, NO ONE ELSES, to ensure you have the equipment to do so... the same as a Sax player, or Double Bass player, or Guitarist.

I do hope the other College Lecturers who use the forum will remember to point this out to their students on a regular basis.

Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote dave-lew99:

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Excuse me?

I believe it is a choice of someone if they want to learn an expensive instrument (ie. Sax)

---

And your point is?! If you want to learn to play the Sax you either:

1. Buy it
2. Rent it, or
3. Forget about it

No one is going to let you walk into their shop and take one off the rack without paying, just because you want to learn to play it!! Simple!!

Beya

I went to see a lovely house last week. It's on the market at £2million and I can't quite afford that. Do you think it would be okay for me to just move in anyway and pay for it when I have a bit more money?

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

If you couldn't afford to buy a sax to learn then you dont learn the sax, if you're forced to use a certain bit of software to do work with what do you do?

Fail the assignments? As you have 9-5 lectures practically every day and cannot get into the supposedly open access suite?

I have spent practically NOTHING on going out this semester - i cannot afford to do so, even SE is too expensive for my budget - i am struggling to pay for FOOD

My comment about logic relates to the fact that i really do not like using it not to any other reason

University is supposed to be open to all, NO-ONE should be unable to do a course simply because they cannot afford to recreate the universities facilities at home

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David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk

Edited by dave-lew99 (04/12/05 03:30 PM)