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TTN



Joined: 14/11/04
Posts: 1087
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ben m]
      #220445 - 05/12/05 02:16 AM
Quote ben m:

If I/you want to download a cracked copy of whatever software (audio or not) I/you could do so in the knowledge that I have not deprived another individual the right to use that product - if I download a pirated copy of, for arguments sake, Ableton Live, then I have not broken into my mates house and taken his copy and deleted the program from his/her hard drive preventing him/her from using it. That to me is the textbook definition of theft, the unlawful taking of a tangible good.




Agreed.

But the 'piracy is theft' argument should be centered around the software developers, rather than the consumer, based on the fact that they receive less money as a result of people copying their produce. But this argument is hardly cut and dried. Here's why:

- You can't prove that people who copy and use pirated software would actually shell out the money to buy it. They may well go without. Hell, if they had money, they'd probably go out and buy something useful like hardware instead.

- The overheads for software are massively lower than for hardware. Companies like Kurzweil, Ensoniq, Yamaha etc., realised this in the 80's, and created their hardware from stock components (from other companies), and concentrated on designing software OS's for them instead.

- Sometimes you don't get paid fairly for what you do. Look at those kids in the sweatshops in China. Who makes the money? The same people who tell you it's criminal that China pirates so much recorded music... they're Communists duh.

- The fact that software is just data makes it inherently different from hardware. If you could copy that Brauner mic a dozen times and give one to all your friends would you?

Not that i'm playing devil's advocate or anything

And before any of you spend £1300 on a new copy of the esquisitely engineered Nuendo (sorry Karl, we wasted the entire R&D budget on track colours, so it would look as good as Logic), remember you spent around a 10th of that on a very ramshackle made OS, and for less than half of that you could have bought an MMT-8


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nmkDom



Joined: 16/02/05
Posts: 106
Loc: The Toon
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220460 - 05/12/05 06:56 AM
I bought all my software, including Nuendo, BUT I use a cracked version. I installed the original then uninstalled it and put it away. WHY? because the dongle is a pain in the neck and sometimes crashes the program. I'm not interested in why it does that, or what fixes I should use. The cracked version works just fine.


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geoffmartin



Joined: 05/09/04
Posts: 618
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220463 - 05/12/05 07:18 AM
ahahahahahaaaa - these threads are always hilarious!

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Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220479 - 05/12/05 09:04 AM
I blame the software Co's. The whole culture of the web is built around freedom and things for free.

Remember Paint Shop and their clever business model of giving away fully functional shareware to get their market coverage and brand stamped into the head of the webs human module.

I see downloading music as something akin to taping from the radio. Its not the same I know. But im sure the emotion is the same in a kid getting a freebie from some download site. And a fourteen year old 'me' taping tracks from the Nicky Horn [who???] show or from Fluff [eh???].

So many things are free. And as someone said above. How about libraries. I wonder how many people have a shelf full of cd's or a media player full of tracks ripped from libraries? And before that people taped vinyl from friends and libraries, quite often on an industrial scale.

If you want to stop piracy, you have to stop selling nothing. Which is what software and digital data is. Its not even neccesary to have the data or application stored on one shelf or box. The thing can be spread over a number of servers. But its just a box of jumble which is bugger all until aligned and arranged by a code in a manner recognisable by an OS. Now reduced to a stream of radio waves.

Great art has always come from poverty. The next new style, the next progression in music wont come from some beautiful commercial studio. It will be copied, smoothed and commercialised there. But it will come from the street and some dizzy kid working on no budget, a nicked computer and some cracked software. As pretty much always happens.

I dont condone piracy, ultimately its theft! But if you leave your car door unlocked with a pile of twenties in the glove box. You cant complain too much when someone nicks the money. Its terrible for sure. Its a sad reflection on society, oh yes. Its taking bread out of the mouths of creative people, no doubt about that. But it might help if the industries that create the product make it a bit harder to steal. Selling bits of data is a beautiful idea but ultimately a con thats backfired.

As usual I blame the robots. Versatran Series F!.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220495 - 05/12/05 09:46 AM
I don't agree the onus is on the manufacturers to stop theft - remember those insidious defence lawyers a few years ago who used to defend rapists by saying the girl was wearing a short skirt?
How about this for a solution : you get a credit card reader to plug-in to a USB port, before you can open the software you have to swipe your credit card and the access code is also your credit card number. Everytime you open the software you need to swipe your card. How many ersatz Robin Hoods would give everybody a copy of their credit card so that their friends or customers could use illegal software?


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: nmkDom]
      #220500 - 05/12/05 09:57 AM
Quote nmkDom:

I installed the original then uninstalled it and put it away. WHY? because the dongle is a pain in the neck and sometimes crashes the program. I'm not interested in why it does that, or what fixes I should use. The cracked version works just fine.




What a load of rubbish. I too use Nuendo, version 3.2 to be precise, and ever since version 2...low and behold with the same dongle that has never caused the machine to crash!! And since when has purchasing a valid version of a program then given you the right to use an illegal copy??

Beya


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Who's never been here


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #220506 - 05/12/05 10:06 AM
Quote noiseconjecture:

I don't agree the onus is on the manufacturers to stop theft




Neither do I, but I dont live in a crime free state either. So I have to be a realist about the security of my property.

The credit card number is a good one. I once bought an audio to midi utility that used my card no as the password.

But this wont stop a cracker. Its just a code right. And we already have those. It would stop the 'friends sharing' thing probably. But thats a small part of the whole.

And as for young girls in short skirts 'asking for it'. Well those lawyers you speak of still use this defence. And in a recent survey in the UK. A rather large number of people seem to agree with them.


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Who's never been here


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220507 - 05/12/05 10:10 AM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote nmkDom:

I installed the original then uninstalled it and put it away. WHY? because the dongle is a pain in the neck and sometimes crashes the program. I'm not interested in why it does that, or what fixes I should use. The cracked version works just fine.




What a load of rubbish. I too use Nuendo, version 3.2 to be precise, and ever since version 2...low and behold with the same dongle that has never caused the machine to crash!! And since when has purchasing a valid version of a program then given you the right to use an illegal copy??

Beya




You might find that its the dregs of an improperly removed cracked copy thats screwing the real one!

Crackers hide nasty sh!t in their work too. You can never really trust that theres not a bot hidden in there thats doing some devilment!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220514 - 05/12/05 10:18 AM
Quote ow:

You might find that its the dregs of an improperly removed cracked copy thats screwing the real one!

Crackers hide nasty sh!t in their work too. You can never really trust that theres not a bot hidden in there thats doing some devilment!




Exactly!!

Beya


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Ben



Joined: 27/06/03
Posts: 1887
Loc: Oxford
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220515 - 05/12/05 10:18 AM
By using cracked software, you may not be denying an individual from using a product in the short term. But if most of those who wanted to use software refused to pay for it, they would be denying everyone from using a continuously developed and supported item when it was no longer available.

We can't measure how many users of illegal software would have actually purchased it. But, equally, how many potential customers decide they don't need to pay? Surely, we could all claim that we never had any intention of actually paying for it?

This defense concerns me the most. It shows absolutely no value for something, but a wish to own it all the same.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ben]
      #220521 - 05/12/05 10:35 AM
Quote Ben:

It shows absolutely no value for something, but a wish to own it all the same.



Here lies the dichotomy. By using cracked software you are suggesting that the software is worthless, but by deciding that you need it you are giving it a value. Why people are not prepared to pay for something that will benefit them is beyond me.

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Who's never been here


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Commander]
      #220528 - 05/12/05 10:50 AM
I think the thing is deeper than that. There are many people using pirate software. Listening to copied cd's. Who would never dream of walking into woolies and palming one off the shelf. Fine upstanding people who read the Mail. Its the same mentality as the office worker whos sideboard is full of office stationary. He thinks its an okay victimless crime, a perk!

Then we have an iPod that can hold a squillion songs [or say 10 grands worth of music or so] and a bundled media player thats a piraters dream. Particularly when used in conjunction with that CD artwork site. Theres a lot of double standard going on. Mixed messages to the kids.


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Dark Fader
sith lord


Joined: 03/01/04
Posts: 652
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220538 - 05/12/05 11:18 AM
Quote ow:

Fine upstanding people who read the Mail.




Surely that's an oxymoron.

I do agree with you about the mixed messages being given to the kids. Most just don't even consider that music is supposed to be paid for. Yet a lot of them want to make a living as musicians!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220540 - 05/12/05 11:20 AM
No matter what way you look at it, no matter what shape or form it comes in, theft is theft.

Beya

Edited by beyarecords (05/12/05 11:20 AM)


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Dark Fader
sith lord


Joined: 03/01/04
Posts: 652
Loc: Death Star
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220544 - 05/12/05 11:23 AM
Quote beyarecords:

No matter what way you look at it, no matter what shape or form it comes in, theft is theft.

Beya




Abso-motherf*ckin-lutely.

But I'm a great believer in karma, and those who steal will get their comeuppance.


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Who's never been here


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220548 - 05/12/05 11:30 AM
Quote beyarecords:

No matter what way you look at it, no matter what shape or form it comes in, theft is theft.
Beya




Yes, but my general drift is that some people dont see this kind of thing as theft. And I'm trying to explore the subject a bit to find out why.

Otherwise its just "off with his head". Without ever finding out what was in his head first!


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Michael Harrison
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Joined: 10/09/02
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220553 - 05/12/05 11:33 AM
Quote all_on_black:

Meh, you have a point, but to be fair, its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software. My 'theory' on it is that I'll buy it when I'm making money from it, or when I can afford to buy it (ie, when I'm in a full time job earning lots of money)... at least people are getting used to these systems and when they can actually afford them they might go and buy them, because they've had good performance from their cracked version. At least we're playing on the same team a bit.




No offence, but this is nonsense. If you get a £500 bonus, I doubt you are you going to think "Right, now I've got the funds I'm going to pay for a legit copy of Cubase to replace the cracked version I've been using". I could be wrong, but I'd also be highly surprised.

The 'can't afford' argument is bullshit IMHO. I also aired my views on it in another thread.

Mike

--------------------
www.ehsound.co.uk - Live Sound Hire & Services


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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #220556 - 05/12/05 11:38 AM
Quote raphus:


Specifically, even though my friend and I never simultaneously possess the book, by borrowing it any time I want to I am enjoying all the benefits of ownership without having paid for it. If loaning books were not socially acceptable, I would have to go out and buy it, and the author would have made more money.

I agree that software piracy is bad, but I don't know how to reconcile that with this book lending issue.




... but the book can only be used in one place at one time - it's like a hardware dongle for a software package. It's the same as lending someone a guitar. If you photocopied the whole book or scanned it, that would be like using "cracked" software ...



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Sarge



Joined: 06/06/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: Norfolk
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #220560 - 05/12/05 11:43 AM
Must be even harder to deicide to buy SX with a £500 bonus if they've got to buy all the cracked plugins they're using as well. As is often the case they've got too much software to use.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220564 - 05/12/05 11:52 AM
Quote beyarecordsMr Bill gates can afford to charge whatever prices he likes due to the fact that he created the product, you know burt that midnight oil to enable us all to do what we do now on PC's!
Beya




yeah,right! Go talk to Dec, Xerox, etc., who apparently were at one time Microsoft`s R&D department! Ol` Bill`s the biggest pirate of all, just that nowadays he`s too big to sue for the mo:


part.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: IvanSC]
      #220594 - 05/12/05 12:43 PM
Quote IvanSC:

yeah,right! Go talk to Dec, Xerox, etc., who apparently were at one time Microsoft`s R&D department! Ol` Bill`s the biggest pirate of all, just that nowadays he`s too big to sue for the mo"] part.




Well ain't that the opportunity for you to be the bigger man then. Because Ol' Bill may be a schumck doesn't mean you have to join him in being one as well does it, afterall two wrongs never make a right?!

Beya


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220616 - 05/12/05 01:17 PM
I also responded to the "other thread" as Michael puts it, so I don't want to retype my diatribe here, but suffice it say, any arguments you create for using cracked software are excuses and cop outs. It is wrong, period. There is nothing more to say, and no way you can rationalize it.

As far as the "borrowing" comments go...

Borrowing is not copying. Borrowing is using someone else's property and then returning it, not duplicating it, using it, and then destroying your copy.

When I borrow my neighbor's rake, he does not have a rake to use, does he?

If I want to borrow my neighbor's Cubase SX then, I should borrow the entire PC with the software loaded, record my song, and then return the PC. During that time, my neighbor would not be able to use his copy of Cubase because I had it.

Now *that's* borrowing.

Sheesh! These threads really show how far we have fallen in our society. The End Times are a-comin' my friends.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220688 - 05/12/05 03:19 PM
Quote:

What a load of rubbish. I too use Nuendo, version 3.2 to be precise, and ever since version 2...low and behold with the same dongle that has never caused the machine to crash!! And since when has purchasing a valid version of a program then given you the right to use an illegal copy??



Am I wrong in believing you can make a single copy for backup purposes? It probably depends on the country/developer, but I'm sure i've read it somewhere.

Quote:

No offence, but this is nonsense. If you get a £500 bonus, I doubt you are you going to think "Right, now I've got the funds I'm going to pay for a legit copy of Cubase to replace the cracked version I've been using". I could be wrong, but I'd also be highly surprised.




Maybe someone wouldnt replace a cracked copy, but they may purchase the next version, if they did get the said bouns.
To be fair, I agree with you - I would much prefer to spend £500 on say some pre-amps or mic's, but I'm thinking if a "crack user" were to start a commercial business, then the said user may BUY that particular software over other products.

Quote:

Must be even harder to deicide to buy SX with a £500 bonus if they've got to buy all the cracked plugins they're using as well. As is often the case they've got too much software to use.




I'll admit to using cracked software, but I DO try to use as many free (legitimatley free!) plugin's and samples as possible, and try to keep the software I use to a minimum aswell. Its not all about having *everything* for free

Quote:

Well ain't that the opportunity for you to be the bigger man then. Because Ol' Bill may be a schumck doesn't mean you have to join him in being one as well does it, afterall two wrongs never make a right?!




Im fairly sure that in maths I was taught minus multiplied by minus equals plus... (sorry )

I'm not trying to justify pirated software, I just like the discussion.

Gareth


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Shingles
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Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1081
Loc: Worcester, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: D.Crowley]
      #220689 - 05/12/05 03:24 PM
Quote D.Crowley:



And a final one on the people who have been comparing it to people using your music with out crediting you... People are not taking this software as their own and trying to say they created it, they are simply using it for pleasure. So for the comparison if I were making music for pleasure or atleast trying to get a deal then I'd be very happy for any of you to take my music and spread it around...get it as far as you can please!




You miss my point entirely.
Quote:


When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!.


Daniel.




..so here it is again. What if the listening public don't pay because they can download your music free?

--------------------
Nik
Godin, Axon, Tonelab, Repeater & the skin of my teeth!


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Arse Bandit



Joined: 17/09/01
Posts: 2795
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220723 - 05/12/05 04:29 PM
Quote all_on_black:

I'll admit to using cracked software, but I DO try to use as many free (legitimatley free!) plugin's and samples as possible, and try to keep the software I use to a minimum aswell. Its not all about having *everything* for free




??

"I stole that software, but the other stuff's legal".

Can you really, honestly, justify your statements? Seriously?


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220751 - 05/12/05 05:09 PM
Quote:

"I stole that software, but the other stuff's legal".

Can you really, honestly, justify your statements? Seriously?




Like I said, I wasn't trying to justify, just making a point that not everyone wants to have EVERYTHING. Like I said, I try to use free alternatives, rather than cracking something, but there are a few things which *I dont want to spend the money on* that I have cracked. Like I said, not justifying - just commenting.

*dont want to spend the money on because i've just priced up some gear I want to buy, to have a fairly basic multitracking system, and the cabling is going to cost me £75 alone. Then there's the rest. Its an expensive hobby, and some things have to get pushed to the back of the que.*

Edited by all_on_black (05/12/05 05:10 PM)


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Shingles]
      #220755 - 05/12/05 05:17 PM
Quote Shingles:


Quote:


When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!.


Daniel.




..so here it is again. What if the listening public don't pay because they can download your music free?



Exactly - well put!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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Mathieu



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 6
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220770 - 05/12/05 05:59 PM
Like everyone else I have to chime in into this discussion :P

My main gripe with cracked software is it competes with legitimate, free software. If the user base of such software (audacity, ardour, rosegarden, etc...) would grow, we could expect the software to improve much faster

(More users = a slight chance of more developers, and more bug reports etc...)

Which is somewhat of an ironic vicious circle, when you think about it: by wanting free software but not using the legitimate ones (those "free as in freedom") they are actually pushing them back...

---

On another note, I think one of the problem (why there is such a huge amount of piracy) also resides in the way the products are marketed, and the magazines do not help either. There is usually a complete product line for each product, with a "lite" version usually 100% suitable for amateurs, and at a price they can afford. But companies and magazines always seem to focus on the high-end version of the product, creating the illusion that you actually *need* those features, where you could probably live without (if you're a pro, then you probably pay anyway, so this doesn't apply to you )

This does not justify piracy, and it's still the user's fault if he pirates Cubase SX instead of buying the SE version... just something to think about


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Ben



Joined: 27/06/03
Posts: 1887
Loc: Oxford
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: D.Crowley]
      #220793 - 05/12/05 07:10 PM
Quote D.Crowley:

When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!




And when I pull wearing the aftershave I stole from Boots, I'll go back and give them the money.


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David Lewthwaite



Joined: 09/01/05
Posts: 627
Loc: On the Wirral these days
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220805 - 05/12/05 07:38 PM
Mathieu has a point there, a little like the points raised for Top Gear - its all very well having reviews of flagship and expensive products but where does that leave the people on a budget?

Perhaps SOS should have a permanant column for Freeware and perhaps Shareware with links to websites, guides and tutorials.

This isn't to say SOS is without mentioning free software - i have downloaded software from links in the magazine countless numbers of times - and useful it has been, but i think somthing more substantial and permanant is a good idea.

Another idea is when doing tutorials for say 'Cubase' have a box somewhere that says 'This applies to the following versions: then list Cubase SL 2.x+ Cubase SE etc' To make it clear, and then someone whose read the article wont then go "ah, i can't actually do that" when they sit down at their computer and hence save time (the SOS mag already takes me ages to get through!!)

--------------------
David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #220870 - 05/12/05 09:50 PM
Quote Bill C:

Quote raphus:


Specifically, even though my friend and I never simultaneously possess the book, by borrowing it any time I want to I am enjoying all the benefits of ownership without having paid for it. If loaning books were not socially acceptable, I would have to go out and buy it, and the author would have made more money.

I agree that software piracy is bad, but I don't know how to reconcile that with this book lending issue.




... but the book can only be used in one place at one time - it's like a hardware dongle for a software package. It's the same as lending someone a guitar. If you photocopied the whole book or scanned it, that would be like using "cracked" software ...






Quote Doublehelix:


Borrowing is not copying. Borrowing is using someone else's property and then returning it, not duplicating it, using it, and then destroying your copy.

When I borrow my neighbor's rake, he does not have a rake to use, does he?

If I want to borrow my neighbor's Cubase SX then, I should borrow the entire PC with the software loaded, record my song, and then return the PC. During that time, my neighbor would not be able to use his copy of Cubase because I had it.

Now *that's* borrowing.







Believe it or not, I really do understand that copying the book is different than reading it any time I like. Unfortunately the book analogy is not perfect, because one does not need to copy a book to fully enjoy the benefits of ownership.

My point remains that if book lending were not socially acceptable, authors would make more money. It's as simple as that. I think it's worth considering this contradiction--denying authors their income simply because I want to enjoy book-owning benefits for free is socially acceptable, but denying software developers their income because for the same reason is socially unacceptable. The motives and the end results are the same, but one is OK while the other is illegal and immoral. Am I the only one who thinks it might be informative to consider this?


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mnah



Joined: 10/08/05
Posts: 69
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220892 - 05/12/05 10:41 PM
Interesting stuff.

Firstly - let me say that I do not count myself as 'perfect' when it comes to the issue of software/cd piracy. However.... I am getting there.

My point is that it seems to be an educational problem. As others have pointed out, and I agree, there is simply no difference at all in copying a version of, say, Live, than going into DV and swiping a copy off the shelf. And yet so many people would be horrified at the thought of the latter, and not the former.

A few examples......

Whilst on a BA plane coming back from holiday last year, the prized "readers letter" was from a bloke saying how wonderful it was that you could buy a bunch of CDs from wollys, copy them onto your ipod, and then take the cds back for a refund, whilst leaving the music on said ipod. Not only did this get published, but the guy won a prize for his theivery!!!

Similarly, I was at dinner with a friend the other night, who, when i raised an eyebrow at the fact that she had ripped a bunch of her friends cds for her own useage, said "whats wrong with that, it's not illegal is it?"

My point is, it seems that for whatever reason people in general do not see theft of a physical product and theft of a 'virtual' product (for want of a better description) as the same thing. I cant help thinking that the advent of things like iTunes and iPod, as well as the ability to burn cds at all domestically (of which more later) have unintentioanlly made this the case.

I should also point out (coming back to my 'not perfect' statement earlier) that when I first got a CD writer back in about '96, the first thing I did was rip a whole load of cds and copy them. I was among those who saw no difference. I have spent the last few years buying all the cds that I had copied ( which I have to say is a VERY dull way to spend money, but good karma) so that my entire cd collection is now legit. I only mention this because it suddenly dawned on me a few years back that it seems like it's mainly people in the music industry who steal from the music industry, and then (like myself) complain about the state of said music industry!!!!! Now thats just plain stupid as far as I'm concerned.

There are all sorts of reasons why people justify using cracked or copied software, and probably 99.9% of them are just wrong. I strongly believe that we need to support software developers (as hard as that may be sometimes when they seem to not support us sometimes) given that more and more of us rely on them for our livelyhood

Thats all

Matt


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #220896 - 05/12/05 10:51 PM
Quote raphus:

Quote Bill C:

Quote raphus:


Specifically, even though my friend and I never simultaneously possess the book, by borrowing it any time I want to I am enjoying all the benefits of ownership without having paid for it. If loaning books were not socially acceptable, I would have to go out and buy it, and the author would have made more money.

I agree that software piracy is bad, but I don't know how to reconcile that with this book lending issue.




... but the book can only be used in one place at one time - it's like a hardware dongle for a software package. It's the same as lending someone a guitar. If you photocopied the whole book or scanned it, that would be like using "cracked" software ...






Quote Doublehelix:


Borrowing is not copying. Borrowing is using someone else's property and then returning it, not duplicating it, using it, and then destroying your copy.

When I borrow my neighbor's rake, he does not have a rake to use, does he?

If I want to borrow my neighbor's Cubase SX then, I should borrow the entire PC with the software loaded, record my song, and then return the PC. During that time, my neighbor would not be able to use his copy of Cubase because I had it.

Now *that's* borrowing.







Believe it or not, I really do understand that copying the book is different than reading it any time I like. Unfortunately the book analogy is not perfect, because one does not need to copy a book to fully enjoy the benefits of ownership.

My point remains that if book lending were not socially acceptable, authors would make more money. It's as simple as that. I think it's worth considering this contradiction--denying authors their income simply because I want to enjoy book-owning benefits for free is socially acceptable, but denying software developers their income because for the same reason is socially unacceptable. The motives and the end results are the same, but one is OK while the other is illegal and immoral. Am I the only one who thinks it might be informative to consider this?




Hey Raphus...

I think you might be missing my point.

I find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, because it is a physical entity that was bought and paid for at some point, and when you borrow it, you are not copying a physical entity.

With software however, you can make an exact copy, and use that *copy*, so rather than *borrowing* a physical entity, you are making your own version, which in my book is stealing.

As I pointed out however, if you owned a version of Cubase that you installed on a computer, and I borrowed the computer *and* the software for a week while I make a song, I would say I was borrowing a physical entity, and that would be OK. You are unable to use the software while I am making my record.

I do understand that by borrowing your computer, I am denying the software creater more money, but not by making a new version of his creation on my own.

As you mention, this is instantly more socially acceptable.

It is really nothing different than borrowing your car, borrowing your lawn mower, or borrowing your garden rake. It denies the creater money because you are not buying one of your own

So again, my bottom line here:

If you want to "borrow" software, you do not make a copy of that software, but rather you must use the *same* version of that software.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220965 - 06/12/05 01:28 AM
I have a few thoughts on this subject I'd like to share.

Firstly, software 'piracy' (arrrrrrrrr!) is not the same as theft. When you steal something, you deprive the owner of it. This obviously doesn't apply when you copy software. It can be argued (with some justification) that you deprive the copyright owner of some potential earnings, but this still isn't the same thing.

Secondly, I'd like to digress a little into the parallel topic of music piracy. A ridiculous argument I've heard on this subject is that people will stop making music if they aren't going to derive income from it. I'm sure everyone here would agree this simply isn't true - most if not all of us make music because we enjoy it. Yeah, it's great if other people enjoy it too, even better if they show their appreciation financially, but the bottom line is we do it for our own satisfaction.

Obviously making software is a slightly different kettle of fish, however I truly cannot believe that software would cease to be made if there was no money involved. If there's enough demand for a piece of software, then somebody somewhere will make it. Perhaps they too will do this primarily for their own use, but that certainly doesn't stop anyone else from using it. You only have to look to the open source movement and the number of free VST stuff out there to see the truth of this.

Thirdly, I'd like to stray into the realms of fantasy, Captain Mainwaring. Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free. Let's say I then baked a really nice cheese and onion pie. I could end world hunger at a stroke, yet I refused to do so unless each starving child in Africa paid me royalties for the use of copies of my pie. Wouldn't this make me some kind of monster?

Now instead of a pie, imagine I designed a really great pair of shoes. I could give all those poor clichéd African children shoes! Would I be a monster if I refused to do this for free?

Now instead of shoes, imagine I made a really great t-shirt. Or a pair of sunglasses. Or an mp3 player, or a car, or a - ok, we could play this game all night. My point is, there's a grey area here. When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.

I want to finish by pointing out (before I get flamed) that I honestly haven't made my own mind up on this subject yet. In an ideal world I'd like to see *all* software, music, literature etc. available for free, but with the user having the option to donate money according to the value s/he feels s/he has derived from it. Of course we don't live in an ideal world, but I'm still considering this kind of setup for my own (mostly) music website if/when I finally get around to putting it online. Will I make a living from this? Probably not. Will that stop me making music, writing stories, drawing pictures, making the odd bit of software? Definately not!


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220973 - 06/12/05 01:57 AM

Where's my sled?


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #220977 - 06/12/05 02:01 AM
Quote Chillum:

A ridiculous argument I've heard on this subject is that people will stop making music if they aren't going to derive income from it. I'm sure everyone here would agree this simply isn't true - most if not all of us make music because we enjoy it.



That's fine if it isn't your sole source of income. How do you afford to live if it is?

Quote Chillum:

Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free. Let's say I then baked a really nice cheese and onion pie. I could end world hunger at a stroke, yet I refused to do so unless each starving child in Africa paid me royalties for the use of copies of my pie.



But who would pay for the machine? The ingredients? The shipping?

Quote Chillum:

Now instead of a pie, imagine I designed a really great pair of shoes. I could give all those poor clichéd African children shoes! Would I be a monster if I refused to do this for free?



But who would pay for the leather? The rubber? The shipping?

Quote Chillum:

Now instead of shoes, imagine I made a really great t-shirt. Or a pair of sunglasses. Or an mp3 player, or a car, or a - ok, we could play this game all night.



Again, who would finance the venture? Where would the materials come from? Even if the machine was able to make its own materials, who would buy the initial item to copy?

Quote Chillum:

My point is, there's a grey area here. When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.



If you apply that argument to everything in life then nobody should pay for anything ... electricity, gas, petrol, where do you stop? Anti piracy laws exist to ensure that the individual is paid for his work and can afford to carry on developing.

Quote Chillum:

In an ideal world I'd like to see *all* software, music, literature etc. available for free, but with the user having the option to donate money according to the value s/he feels s/he has derived from it.



Everything has a value. This way of looking at it would totally devalue everything. Who's going to pay £500 when they can pay 50p?

Quote Chillum:

Of course we don't live in an ideal world, but I'm still considering this kind of setup for my own (mostly) music website if/when I finally get around to putting it online. Will I make a living from this? Probably not. Will that stop me making music, writing stories, drawing pictures, making the odd bit of software? Definately not!



If you depended on royalties to pay your mortgage you would have an entirely different outlook I can assure you!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Commander]
      #220990 - 06/12/05 03:45 AM
Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

A ridiculous argument I've heard on this subject is that people will stop making music if they aren't going to derive income from it. I'm sure everyone here would agree this simply isn't true - most if not all of us make music because we enjoy it.



That's fine if it isn't your sole source of income. How do you afford to live if it is?



Then obviously you'd have to find another source of income. I suspect you'd still find the time to make some music, though.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free. Let's say I then baked a really nice cheese and onion pie. I could end world hunger at a stroke, yet I refused to do so unless each starving child in Africa paid me royalties for the use of copies of my pie.



But who would pay for the machine? The ingredients? The shipping?



Here I'm drawing an analogy with software, which can quickly and easily be replicated at no cost in materials etc. My hypothetical machine behaves in the same way.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

Now instead of shoes, imagine I made a really great t-shirt. Or a pair of sunglasses. Or an mp3 player, or a car, or a - ok, we could play this game all night.



Again, who would finance the venture? Where would the materials come from? Even if the machine was able to make its own materials, who would buy the initial item to copy?



The initial item would be created or provided by someone who wanted, for themselves, a pie, pair of shoes, car etc.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

My point is, there's a grey area here. When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.



If you apply that argument to everything in life then nobody should pay for anything ... electricity, gas, petrol, where do you stop? Anti piracy laws exist to ensure that the individual is paid for his work and can afford to carry on developing.



And if it were possible to freely replicate anything, why on earth should anyone pay for anything?

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

In an ideal world I'd like to see *all* software, music, literature etc. available for free, but with the user having the option to donate money according to the value s/he feels s/he has derived from it.



Everything has a value. This way of looking at it would totally devalue everything.



Everything would still have a value, it would just be a value decided by the buyer rather than the seller.

Quote Commander:

Who's going to pay £500 when they can pay 50p?



Someone who feels a moral obligation to pay what they consider a fair price for the (for want of a better phrase) amount of usefulness they've got out of it. Probably, in fact, the same kind of person who currently feels a moral obligation to buy legitimate copies of software rather than using 'pirated' versions.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

Of course we don't live in an ideal world, but I'm still considering this kind of setup for my own (mostly) music website if/when I finally get around to putting it online. Will I make a living from this? Probably not. Will that stop me making music, writing stories, drawing pictures, making the odd bit of software? Definately not!



If you depended on royalties to pay your mortgage you would have an entirely different outlook I can assure you!



I can't argue with that!


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #220991 - 06/12/05 03:48 AM
Quote Doublehelix:


Hey Raphus...

I think you might be missing my point.

I find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, because it is a physical entity that was bought and paid for at some point, and when you borrow it, you are not copying a physical entity.




You're right, I must be missing your point, because it sounds like you're repeating the same argument despite my having invalidated it. It probably sounds to you like I'm doing the same thing.

I also find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, but I honestly don't know why I feel that way, because it seems contradictory to my feelings on software piracy. I just think that comparing book lending to software pirating might be illuminating.

Quote Doublehelix:


I do understand that by borrowing your computer, I am denying the software creater more money, but not by making a new version of his creation on my own.

As you mention, this is instantly more socially acceptable.




Why?! This is the crux of my argument! Why is it socially acceptable to find non-coping-related ways of depriving creators of potential profits generated by their creations? If that were common practice (which, for obvious practical reasons, it never will be), do you think software developers would be OK with that? I certainly don't.

Quote Doublehelix:


It is really nothing different than borrowing your car, borrowing your lawn mower, or borrowing your garden rake. It denies the creater money because you are not buying one of your own

So again, my bottom line here:

If you want to "borrow" software, you do not make a copy of that software, but rather you must use the *same* version of that software.




It is very different. We don't use the books we read for pleasure in the same way. They sit on our shelves, and we read them once every few years. The borrowing of a garden rake comes closer, but this is not about examining the borrowing characteristics of every possible borrowed item. (If I borrow my neighbor's rake very often, I would just go out and buy one of my own.)

So, I can engage in socially acceptable behavior that affords me all the benefits of ownership and deprives authors of compensation, or I can engage in socially unacceptable behavior that affords me all the benefits of ownership and deprives software developers of compensation. If all the benefits of ownership are conferred in both cases, the fact that one involves a physical copy and one does not is irrelevant. Or, if it is relevant, I have yet to hear a reason why. (A statement that it is does not count as a reason why it is.)

For example, if the computer sharing situation you described were feasible, you and I could theoretically each operate separate recording studios using only one computer. You could be open from noon to midnight, and I could be open midnight to noon. Based on the retail price of Logic Pro, the company that wrote our DAW software would be out about $1,000. Get a significant number of people doing that, then imagine the software industry's response.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #221017 - 06/12/05 08:12 AM
Quote Chillum:

Firstly, software 'piracy' (arrrrrrrrr!) is not the same as theft. When you steal something, you deprive the owner of it. This obviously doesn't apply when you copy software. It can be argued (with some justification) that you deprive the copyright owner of some potential earnings, but this still isn't the same thing.




More rubbish!! Have you ever read the license/terms of usage agreement associated with software?? When you do, for the first time obviously, it will stipulate that under no circumstances is the software allowed to be copied, manipulated in shape or form. So when you crack/copy the software this then breaks the license agreement and becomes theft! Why?, well because the want every copy used to have been purchased beforehand.

Beya


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #221019 - 06/12/05 08:21 AM
Quote Chillum:

Then obviously you'd have to find another source of income. I suspect you'd still find the time to make some music, though.




Let me get this right, you're a musician who makes their living from making/selling music, and your livelyhood is being compromised by people like yourself who think there is no problem with stealing peoples means of looking after themselves, and the response that you are given to your financial plight is to go and find another career path?!

What if music is the only thing you can/want to do what then, and who the f&*k are you to tell anyone that they have to change their career path because you think it's a good idea to steal from them.

Of course i'm wishing that the karma you believe in, rewards you back handsomely.

Beya


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