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Dr. Fister



Joined: 18/05/05
Posts: 151
i hate it!!!!
      #219959 - 03/12/05 11:59 PM
i never really used to care either way, but now i absolutely HATE people who use cracked software!!!!

i was talking to a couple guys who wanted to do an electronic sideproject with me, and they were talking about all the software they had and i said it must have costed them a fortune. they said, "nah i didn't spend a [ ****** ] penny on this [ ****** ]." and laughed about it. it made me hate them. they don't even TRY to buy what they can, they just take everything for free.

so then you have people like me, who work hard and probably spend more than they should on buying all this stuff, and some little puke bag just sits around collecting it all illegally. i never realized how much i hated this before!

last night my girlfriend came home and said that she had a present for me. she handed me a cracked copy of sampletank 2 XL for mac osx, which is a program i've been meaning to buy when i can afford it, and i threw it in the garbage. i hate parasites like these people.

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i use illogic 7


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #219962 - 04/12/05 12:09 AM
Meh, you have a point, but to be fair, its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software. My 'theory' on it is that I'll buy it when I'm making money from it, or when I can afford to buy it (ie, when I'm in a full time job earning lots of money)... at least people are getting used to these systems and when they can actually afford them they might go and buy them, because they've had good performance from their cracked version. At least we're playing on the same team a bit.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #219963 - 04/12/05 12:12 AM
Quote all_on_black:

but to be fair, its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software. My 'theory' on it is that I'll buy it when I'm making money from it ...




I can't afford a Bentley Continental GT. Think I'll just go and steal one until I can afford to buy one.

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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Dr. Fister



Joined: 18/05/05
Posts: 151
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #219969 - 04/12/05 12:23 AM
that is [ ****** ] retarded!!!!

so people who actually work to pay for this stuff have to buy it, just to support the companies so that freeloading leaches can take whatever they want?!? and they DON'T pay for it. they just downlaod it and that is that. every time a new version comes out they just download again.

so if you are a student who can't afford it then use buy a cut down version until you can. these companies don't owe you anything! yeah, i'm just gonna walk into a restaurant, hold it up, and serve people and if it starts making me money, then i'll maybe buy one of my own. the restaurant owes that to me. it is my birth right.

people like you make me sick. if everyone was like you there would be NO software because the companies would have no meny to develop it. and, if it wasn't for so many little pukes like you cracking everything the software would run faster because there wouldn't be so much code involved in security. a steinberg guy told me that half of the code in SX is used solely for security. he said without it it would run a LOT faster and smoother. but hey, they owe it to you. why don't you go into a store and steal some rackmount gear and a mixing console to? they'll understand...just show them your student ID card.

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i use illogic 7


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xandyreverex



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 327
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #219978 - 04/12/05 12:42 AM
When i first started out, i downloaded a crack copy of Cubase VST, and yeah i decided i liked it and was right for me so i went out and bought (the much more expensive) SL3.

If i hadn't tried Cubase VST i wouldn't have even considered buying SL3, hasn't that just earnt them £250?

What i did may have been illegal, but i don't see how it did any harm to the company.

But yeah, i do agree when it comes to downloading masses of software and using them, sometimes commercially, that it is stealing.


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5664
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #219983 - 04/12/05 12:50 AM
Quote:

its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software




Two points :

a) no - but the college that they attend can and does
b) does the phrase 'educational discount' ring any bells?

There are so many 'cut down' versions and alternative freeware / shareware out there that the 'I can't afford it' argument doesn't hold up ( ignoring the obvious ethical and legal issues ).


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mr_m0nks



Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 32
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #219984 - 04/12/05 12:51 AM
unfortunatly cracked software is just one of the things that is an accepted vice in this industry,
the main reason i think is down to:

-the software must be fairly easy to crack (hey im no expert at this so i may be wrong)

-a few well known artists have made their name using cracked software (even publicising the fact). this gives it a slightly glamerous edge (remebering that the pistols were notorious for having stolen gear shows this isnt a new problem, nor is it limited to software)

- their is no deterent against this piracy, heck i can go onto ebay right now and buy a "best of music software" CD or even trawl the web and get most of it for free. i doubt it very much if i ended up with getting some handcuffs slapped on me.


now im a student doing a MT course and a year ago i shelled out nearly 2 grand on a DAW and small set up, now i could only afford Cubase SL at the time but this was fine for what i was doing at the time. mind u i could do with the upgrade to SX now and thats somthing iam quite prepared to pay for
at college however there are various cracked copies of most of the major sequencers, VST's and softsynths doing the rounds, and i would be a liar if i said i hadnt used some of them. but i try not to make use of them to much and if i like a certain piece of software i do have the intention of buying it (as i have done with a couple).

mind you i do find it strange the way this piracy seems to generate such bad feeling in the community, id bet that a good deal of "complainers" have copied CD's in their collection, or have a box full of copied tapes lying around somwhere, or a few bootlegs of their favorite bands. piracy is piracy and there is no difference. And untill the software houses can prevent it im afraid we all have to live with it.


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4014
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dave B]
      #219986 - 04/12/05 12:57 AM
>a) no - but the college that they attend can and does

Wanna bet?

>b) does the phrase 'educational discount' ring any bells?

Does not exist on all software. And on some that it might it aint much of a discount.

For example the college I am attending the majority of the soud software and ahrdware for our department is provided by two students, myself and one other.

Now that being said I stopped using cracked software in exchange for some OSS software. I own a copy of PT but I hardly use it anymore in favor of Ardour. I also own a variety of other things that I have paid for, so dont think I rip it all myself.

I personally dont complain about students using cracked software myself, when they cross into the world of doing commercial work that is where I think the line needs to be drawn. The reason for this is often students cant get experience using the software any other way. And at least in my line of work one needs to have a portfolio of work built up before I leave college, meaning I need to know software and be able to use it efficiently and quickly. I make a decent amount more than the average college student because of how much I work and the fact I am already working in sound, but most of those I go to school with cant afford the 500-1000 quid on decent software just to learn it. However on the flip side they also dont mind paying for good software and I dont think they will continue using ripped stuff when they can afford decent. A good example of this is two others in sound with me in our department started with cracked software but as they got jobs have upgraded to full software they used while cracked due to knowing it and knowing its capabilities.

Seablade


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jaffi



Joined: 28/03/05
Posts: 114
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dave B]
      #220000 - 04/12/05 01:40 AM
Quote Dave B:

Quote:

its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software




Two points :

a) no - but the college that they attend can and does
b) does the phrase 'educational discount' ring any bells?

There are so many 'cut down' versions and alternative freeware / shareware out there that the 'I can't afford it' argument doesn't hold up ( ignoring the obvious ethical and legal issues ).



Yeah, I wish I could get those discounts that are offered for students. Granted, I often get a military discount. But, it often doesn't even touch the discounts offered for students. Piracy is a crime just like any other. I actually have a feeling of pride when I work hard to get what I want. This generation today is *&^ing sorry. Oh, and just because I feel like it, they are pussies, too.


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Dr. Fister



Joined: 18/05/05
Posts: 151
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220014 - 04/12/05 03:03 AM
this guy i am talking about is a dj and has a small studio. he drives a benz. his parents bought him a house. he has every piece of software you can think of and he hasn't paid a cent. that is [ ****** ] and i don't care how you look at it.

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i use illogic 7


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220015 - 04/12/05 03:11 AM
Yes, piracy is illegal and wrong, and yes, the fact that some fraction of software users did not pay for their software means that I paid a tiny bit more for mine. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen. That doesn't mean we'd all have better equipment in that perfect world, though, and it doesn't mean that software companies would be enormously profitable.

It's not a perfect world, of course, and theft is as old as the concept of ownership. It's not going away. Everyone is free to feel however they like about it, but it doesn't seem particularly productive to raise one's blood pressure over it.

Two additional points--I look forward to the demise of quasi-homophobic epithets like "pussy," and I second the notion that student discounts are often negligible or non-existant.


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Dr. Fister



Joined: 18/05/05
Posts: 151
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220023 - 04/12/05 05:02 AM
Quote:

I look forward to the demise of quasi-homophobic epithets like "pussy,"




ummm.....ok. if you use the 'find' feature in your browser you will see that you are the only one who used that word, or anything resembling it anywhere in this post. but thank you for that interjection.

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i use illogic 7


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220028 - 04/12/05 05:25 AM
OK, it was "pussies," not "pussy" (...and therefore immune to searches using the latter term). Two posts above mine, by jaffi, toward the end. Sorry for the confusion, but my point remains.


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Dr. Fister



Joined: 18/05/05
Posts: 151
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220029 - 04/12/05 06:27 AM
ahhhh......a jackass i am. hehehehehe

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i use illogic 7


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jaffi



Joined: 28/03/05
Posts: 114
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220033 - 04/12/05 07:08 AM
I love the way that you attached homophobic to that. I am very open to just about every way of life, but when people are too weak to work for their keep I think they are just that... weak. I used the word pussy because it is a very common word to get the point across. But, instead, I guess I have to write a full paragraph to do that. To tell you the truth, I hear that word come out of the mouths of my gay friends just as much as my straight friends. I guess they're "quasi-homophobic". In either case, I think todays generation has lost a lot of what makes people true and honorable. They have lost the concept of hard work. They all want everything, but aren't willing to sacrifice for what they want. Most of the successful people in this world (I am talking about trully successful), have had many failures and hard knocks throughout their lives. The thing that kept them going was their dreams. Todays generation has the same dreams, but they want it for free. I think I went more in depth than what was called for in this thread, but it still very much relates.

Edited by jaffi (04/12/05 07:20 AM)


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Dr. Fister



Joined: 18/05/05
Posts: 151
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220034 - 04/12/05 07:43 AM
i credit discount hookers for my success.

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i use illogic 7


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220037 - 04/12/05 07:51 AM
It`s a shame that in the middle of all this searching nobody searched to see if this subject had been discussed before. It has.

Every few months someone gets on here and either whines about people cracking software or whines about software houses wanting too much money for a product "so you have to pirate it".

Face it, there will always be pirates/software thieves and nothing we say or do will change it. Equally, many of the software companies are total rip off merchants (are you listening Bill gates?)

This is supposed to me a music technology forum, so can we just discuss music please, guys? This is a total waste of bandwidth.


One small point before I go look at something more useful, I recently bought an Emu 1212m and the "lite" versions of all the software bundled with it really are more than adequate to try before you buy and in no real sense crippled to where they are unusable as used to be the case.

This alone shows that the manufacturers of software seem to be listening and taking a more enlightened approach to slowing down piracy, but it also makes the argument for stealing software in the first place look pretty flimsy.
One of the cheapest top quality sound cards available, bundled with very usable versions of most of the major players` software including plugins and soft synths.

I am currently learning Ableton AND Sonar & "sort of" enjoying the experience, but it does all rather get in the way of actually making music. Embarrassingly, I only bought the Emu so I could import audio into the pc for mastering and cd cutting purposes, which I can`t do on my hard disk recorder!

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Shingles
active member


Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1081
Loc: Worcester, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220043 - 04/12/05 09:01 AM
Here we go again.

If you use cracked software you really shouldn't have a problem with people stealing your music without paying for it.

--------------------
Nik
Godin, Axon, Tonelab, Repeater & the skin of my teeth!


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220046 - 04/12/05 09:04 AM
Something not to forget, particularly on this forum. Is that music and music software that youve purchased legitimately, actually sounds better


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: IvanSC]
      #220047 - 04/12/05 09:10 AM
Quote IvanSC:

Face it, there will always be pirates/software thieves and nothing we say or do will change it. Equally, many of the software companies are total rip off merchants (are you listening Bill gates?)

This is supposed to me a music technology forum, so can we just discuss music please, guys? This is a total waste of bandwidth.




Mr Bill gates can afford to charge whatever prices he likes due to the fact that he created the product, you know burt that midnight oil to enable us all to do what we do now on PC's! Of course you're now going to tell me that you have an OS in development that will not be a rip-off right?! ;-)

It is only in everyones interest that issues regarding fraud, no matter what shape or form they come in, are discussed in this public arena as theft is never too far behind in a public arena where products are offered for sale or purchase.

Beya


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Kwaidan
member


Joined: 26/06/03
Posts: 431
Loc: UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220048 - 04/12/05 09:12 AM
Quote Dr. Fister:

but now i absolutely HATE people who use cracked software!!!!




How can you hate people when you don't know them ?


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Dr. Fister



Joined: 18/05/05
Posts: 151
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220049 - 04/12/05 09:14 AM
ivan shut the [ ****** ] up. does it really matter if it gets discussed in a DISCUSSION board again? does it bother you that much? just scroll past it. it takes up maybe, what, a centimeter of your screen? dear god!!!!!!

i don't ever want to hear anyone talk about audio interfaces, or upgrades on here ever again. i can't tell you how sick i am of seeing the same conversations. this board used to be pretty cool, but these days it is getting lamer and lamer.


Quote:

How can you hate people when you don't know them ?




that doesn't even deserve a response.

Edited by Dr. Fister (04/12/05 09:15 AM)


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jaffi



Joined: 28/03/05
Posts: 114
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220055 - 04/12/05 09:31 AM
Oh crap, here we go. Emotions are starting to come into play. That is my ticket to leave.


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marsnic
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Joined: 02/07/03
Posts: 839
Loc: Southborough, Kent UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220059 - 04/12/05 09:42 AM
This is always a difficult topic to reconcile. What also needs to be considered is that many of these companies that we feel so sorry for are also participating in theft. I recently had a system which I have been working on for 5 years stolen by the market leader and copied to the level that even their presentation materials contain slides lifed straight from my presentations. Whilst I would never condone the use of pirate software with this being my livelihood, there is a huge hypocracy when software houses take the holier than thou position to make you feel sorry for them. Their objectives here are purely financial. Each one of these companies steal ideas and concepts from each other and uses them to line their own pockets. You could argue that downloading and using a pirate version is far better that a company who steal and then make money out of this theft. I would even admit myself that as an application designer, I keep a close eye on competitors products and have in some cases used their ideas and concepts to improve my product. Yes I have to recode and redesign, but in effect the theft is still there. Where do you draw the line?

One area of IP ownership I find quite interesting at present is the production of software and convolution models of real synths and outboard gear. Companies hide behind false names of these models to avoid legal issues but leave enough clues to indicate exactly what they have copied. Should Neve or Manley view anyone with a Liquid Channel as a thief?


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narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220080 - 04/12/05 10:47 AM
fister, you may have good points, but as i've read twice this morning you just stand up and shout and rant. Your well intentioned and probably right on opinion is lost in your inanity.....

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....


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mr_m0nks



Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 32
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220085 - 04/12/05 10:51 AM
aha, a good point raised about these modeled softsynths, channels etc

i suppose we all forget that at the end of the day, a great deal of todays music industry relies on "theft" in one form of another, weather it be a modeled channel strip or guitar amp, a sample half inched from an old abba track (i know you subscribe madonna, put yer ass away!)or a few DJ's in their bedrooms with a cracked copy of Cubase and reason,

if it furthers the industy and the enjoyment of music, who are we to knock it?


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D.Crowley



Joined: 01/03/05
Posts: 42
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220117 - 04/12/05 12:20 PM
Quick! Everyone eat an apple and maybe the doctor will go away!

A few points:
Cracking software is piracy,...and pirates have been on the water long before the web. As long as there're pirates on the water they'll be pirates on the web. (yahh!)

Someone said that 50%, hmm.., of the software is usually security. Have they not realised that whatever they put on, within a few months someone will have got round it. Why don't they save money on the developement to soften the loses from piracy? Mr. Bill Gates might be charging lots but he's got it into his head, have you noticed they still just use product keys and activation? So they save money and have a product that can perform better!!

If a company had total control over its products so that they couldn't be cracked. Do you think the prices would be where they are? ... Personally I doubt it.

And a final one on the people who have been comparing it to people using your music with out crediting you... People are not taking this software as their own and trying to say they created it, they are simply using it for pleasure. So for the comparison if I were making music for pleasure or atleast trying to get a deal then I'd be very happy for any of you to take my music and spread it around...get it as far as you can please! When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!.

Now I must leave you all as the 12:15 delevery lorry to turnkey is about to pass my door and I fancy getting a new mixing desk*

Daniel.


*This was a joke please don't cruifie me.


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David Lewthwaite



Joined: 09/01/05
Posts: 627
Loc: On the Wirral these days
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220124 - 04/12/05 12:34 PM
I want to add my 2p to this discussion.

I am an Audio Technology student and my course requires me to make use of, among other things, Cubase SX, now, the MIDI suite in uni is only open between 8am and 5pm weekdays, if i need to work outside of that im pretty much screwed unless i have a cracked copy of the software.

This still doesnt really help me by the way, as i need to be able to send SysEx to the SW1000 sound cards in the MIDI suite - which i dont have one of. But i can still write all the MIDI and add in the SysEx data to be tested and tweaked when i can get into the suite.

If i ever began to make money from cracked software i would immediatly buy it, in fact there is a clause in the agreement for student use of the uni's facilities that we cannot profit from use of their software etc.

My opinion, and has been for a long time, is that software should be free to students on an extended trial - which runs out on the day of graduation - this means students would be using the software legally, because lets face it about 5%, if that, of students can actually afford to spend £500 on bit of software plus anything else that's needed.

I am lucky in that i can get a £4,100 loan but out of that comes £350 in tuition fees and £2,100 in accommodation fees. I have to live on the rest of that for an entire year.

I'd much rather concentrate on buying kit (such as mics) if and when i can, rather then making sure the software i need to do coursework outside of uni hours is legal.

If not that then maybe the suite should be 24hours? Or the software should be available like the universities Antivirus and VB.Net programming suite - on a site license and any student can take a copy and legally use it (as long as not for profit)

--------------------
David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk


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CdnBcn



Joined: 10/03/04
Posts: 831
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220128 - 04/12/05 12:40 PM
Yo Fister,

I agree with most of what you say but I wanted to make an observation if I may. Your posts have an air of confrontation in them. These discussions can be very interesting and productive but when we take on an attacking posture it forces an adversarial approach which often kills an otherwise useful topic.

*rant on*
But I digress. Back on topic, I feel the people who make money by using stolen software are the worst. It is the same as shoplifting and then selling the goods at another store. These professionals would not like to have an artist stiff them for 100's of hours of studio time yet many of them have no trouble stiffing the software companies for even more by ripping them off.
*rant off*

--------------------
www.gpsystems.ca


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220135 - 04/12/05 12:52 PM
Firstly, contradicting my first point, but most Linux software is developed for free, purely because the people making it love what they do. So surely £500 PLUS is a bit expensive for something that is not *that* much more functional than Ardour on Linux, which comes for free. Now I realise mentioning that, I have "no excuse" for pirated software, but as others have said about themselves, I have NO intention of using it commercially. I use it so I can get used to it for when I might use it to make money from. I would never have bought Sonar if I didn't try it first (not that I have bought it - yet), but its an overlooked program, and if I had never used it, I would have probably gone down the Pro Tools/Cubase route, so therefore, out of my "piracy", Sonar will get extra business in the future.

Back to Linux. Recently I have been having a look around the Linux forum, to see if it is a viable alternative for audio, and, as it stands, for someone who has never had experience with Linux, it's quite simply not ready yet. I will be the first to jump when it IS ready, and I WILL be willing to pay for the software, because generally it doesnt cost too much. The problem with Linux is documentation. There are very few people who actually know how to go about using linux for audio, and this is what puts people like me off. Through Uni I will end up using Linux, so when I become more familiar with it, it will become viable. Linux will become the place to go for audio for people with less money, but its not there just yet.

Also, as others have said, student discounts don't make much difference to software prices, if at all. Usually the most you can expect is 10%, if any.

Yesterday I went to an open day for a University I'm applying to (Cardiff, Wales, if your interested), to do Computer Science, so, I'm not going to get much Pro Tools experience there am I. Another point that was brought up, is that students who come from the "more well off" households, who get the lowest Grants and Loans, by government recomendation actually end up MINUS £20 each month. I happen to be in this position (next year anyway). So, unless you can magic some money from -£20, I don't think my 10% discount is going to help.

That might have been a bit rambled, but I havnt been up long.

Gareth


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: D.Crowley]
      #220139 - 04/12/05 01:09 PM
A couple of points:

As far as the big software houses go, this is more a commercial than a moral arguement. Its a well known truth that all big software manufacturers would rather people were using cracked versions of thier software that legit versions of thier competitor's software. in other words, market share is valued higher than profits.

Why? i would guess that the people behind these companies are jostling for position with an eye on the future - because before too long, no-one will physically 'own' any software. Instead we'll lease it down a broadband connection whenever we need to use it, and pay on a subscriptions basis. This isnt possible right now but with broadband takeup increasing the way it is I bet it's only a couple of years away. (and before anyone pipes up, I know the software we buy now isnt owned by us, thats why i put the word in inverted commas).

I would welcome a subscription-based payment system for software - in fact, i practice a similar sort of thing at the moment. Software i use regularly I buy, but i do have some warez programs.. typically plug ins & VSTis that i very rarely use and that arent worth my while buying. I would imagine there are a lot of people are in this position. Apart from anything else, I dont put the time into learning something properly unless i pay for it.

To the people above taking a taliban-esque line against anyone using warez: I take your point with regard to serial nickers of software, but I'm convinced those people are exploiting a tempoary technological loophole that will close up once subscription-based software services become viable. And anyway, i feel more pity than hate for those kinds of people - they tend to have oodles of software that they dont have a clue how to use, rather like those soulseek ghosts who spend all thier time downloading music they will never get around to listening to.

As for the likes of me, i hope you apply the same harsh verdict to anyone who borrows expensive hardware from thier friends for one-off projects because the principle is exactly the same. I'm in a competitive business and i cant afford to pay a few hundred quid for a piece of software I'm only going to use a handful of times. When a subscription-based payment system becomes viable I'll embrace it, but until then I'll use warez.

And anyone who thinks eradicating piracy will result in big software manufacturers lowering their prices is living in a dreamworld. Commerce doesnt work that way. I'm sure the software companies do spend a reasonable amount combatting piracy (although not as much as they make out), but if that cost was to be eradicated, they would continue to charge you the price they do now and pocket the difference.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox


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DavidW



Joined: 30/09/04
Posts: 1839
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: David Lewthwaite]
      #220149 - 04/12/05 01:31 PM
Quote dave-lew99:


If not that then maybe the suite should be 24hours? Or the software should be available like the universities Antivirus and VB.Net programming suite - on a site license and any student can take a copy and legally use it (as long as not for profit)




A site licence does exist for some audio software, so you'd have to check out if your university dept owns one.

I think the problem with your opening hours is one that students come across regularly. I'm lucky because our dept is 24hrs, however students are not always accustomed to working 9-5! Also, that doesn't take into account that the student-computer ratio.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: David Lewthwaite]
      #220155 - 04/12/05 01:43 PM
Quote dave-lew99:



I am an Audio Technology student and my course requires me to make use of, among other things, Cubase SX, now, the MIDI suite in uni is only open between 8am and 5pm weekdays, if i need to work outside of that im pretty much screwed unless i have a cracked copy of the software.





Tough. Although it is a long time since I was a student I work with saxophone students a lot who have to own a soprano,alto and tenor sax which costs more than several computers and legitimate software. When I was a student I wanted to learn one instrument I just could not afford. You have no God given right to software. You have a right to steal food if you are starving and that is the only way you can stay alive but software is different.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220161 - 04/12/05 01:55 PM
Quote all_on_black:

I use it so I can get used to it for when I might use it to make money from. I would never have bought Sonar if I didn't try it first (not that I have bought it - yet), but its an overlooked program, and if I had never used it, I would have probably gone down the Pro Tools/Cubase route, so therefore, out of my "piracy", Sonar will get extra business in the future.





This is wrong wrong wrong. If the company is offering a time based demo of the application, which most companies do now, then fare enough and that puts a close to having to used a 'cracked' versions of the software for 'testing' purposes. If the business model of a company is that you have to purchase their software before you can use it then you have 2 choices, you either buy it or you don't. But denying the company out of royalty for a product they created becaue you feel you have a God given right to 'quality test' the product before hand just doesn't cut the mustad.

Put yourself in their shoes, you are selling the product but no sales are being made because everyone and their cat is 'evaluating' your product. If you're not prepared to pay for the product don't use it, simple!!

Beya


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David Lewthwaite



Joined: 09/01/05
Posts: 627
Loc: On the Wirral these days
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220163 - 04/12/05 02:01 PM
Excuse me?

I believe it is a choice of someone if they want to learn an expensive instrument (ie. Sax)

If it was up to me i wouldnt be using Cubase i would use a free alternative unfortunatly i HAVE to use Cubase i have no choice in the matter, in the same way i HAD to use Photoshop for an assignment and VB.Net.

At least they're not forcing me to use logic [shudders]

--------------------
David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: David Lewthwaite]
      #220175 - 04/12/05 02:42 PM
Quote dave-lew99:

Excuse me?

I believe it is a choice of someone if they want to learn an expensive instrument (ie. Sax)

If it was up to me i wouldnt be using Cubase i would use a free alternative unfortunatly i HAVE to use Cubase i have no choice in the matter, in the same way i HAD to use Photoshop for an assignment and VB.Net.

At least they're not forcing me to use logic [shudders]




I didn’t realise they pressganged people into becoming students

Tim ;o)

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9380
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: David Lewthwaite]
      #220178 - 04/12/05 02:58 PM
no Dave-Lew... you do not HAVE to use Cubase SX....

A) the assignment can be quite easily done on SL, or maybe even SE.

B) have you even bothered to find out about educational discounts and the lower versions??


Colleges make no secret of what they use, and it is suggested that all those wishing to study equip themselves with the required software and hardware if they're going to work outside of college hours.

AND there's usually a means of doing so via the College.... at the best available educational prices... sometimes, slightly debatably , minus VAT as well.

if you've been down the pub more than 2-3 times this term, you could easily have paid for a copy of SE , perhaps even SL at educational prices.

oh, and guess what... there are significant (like 50% ) discounts on Apple software available form the apple store provided you access it from the college network.

this includes Logic.

Grow up and accept some responsibility for a change.,

YOU CHOSE TO DO A MUSIC TECH RELATED COURSE.

It is your responsibility, NO ONE ELSES, to ensure you have the equipment to do so... the same as a Sax player, or Double Bass player, or Guitarist.

I do hope the other College Lecturers who use the forum will remember to point this out to their students on a regular basis.

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: David Lewthwaite]
      #220179 - 04/12/05 02:59 PM
Quote dave-lew99:

Excuse me?

I believe it is a choice of someone if they want to learn an expensive instrument (ie. Sax)




And your point is?! If you want to learn to play the Sax you either:

1. Buy it
2. Rent it, or
3. Forget about it

No one is going to let you walk into their shop and take one off the rack without paying, just because you want to learn to play it!! Simple!!

Beya


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220181 - 04/12/05 03:01 PM
I went to see a lovely house last week. It's on the market at £2million and I can't quite afford that. Do you think it would be okay for me to just move in anyway and pay for it when I have a bit more money?

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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David Lewthwaite



Joined: 09/01/05
Posts: 627
Loc: On the Wirral these days
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220185 - 04/12/05 03:24 PM
If you couldn't afford to buy a sax to learn then you dont learn the sax, if you're forced to use a certain bit of software to do work with what do you do?

Fail the assignments? As you have 9-5 lectures practically every day and cannot get into the supposedly open access suite?

I have spent practically NOTHING on going out this semester - i cannot afford to do so, even SE is too expensive for my budget - i am struggling to pay for FOOD

My comment about logic relates to the fact that i really do not like using it not to any other reason

University is supposed to be open to all, NO-ONE should be unable to do a course simply because they cannot afford to recreate the universities facilities at home

--------------------
David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk

Edited by dave-lew99 (04/12/05 03:30 PM)


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220186 - 04/12/05 03:34 PM
Quote:

No one is going to let you walk into their shop and take one off the rack without paying, just because you want to learn to play it!! Simple!!





But you *could* borrow one from a friend

And like davelew said, Uni students these days have a HARD time with money.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220189 - 04/12/05 03:46 PM
Quote all_on_black:

And like davelew said, Uni students these days have a HARD time with money.




And you think that it's only students that have a hard time with money?! Because you are a student gives you no right to think that you are above and beyaond the law. before you started your course you investigated it right, knew what the course expected of you, knew what equipment you needed and would have to use on the course, and still you decided to go ahead and enroll right? So what are you complaining about now?? No one forced you to take the course, you chose to! Like they say, 'nothing worth having ever comes easy' or was it 'there's no such thing as a free meal ticket'!!

Beya


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220192 - 04/12/05 03:51 PM
Quote:

And you think that it's only students that have a hard time with money?! Because you are a student gives you no right to think that you are above and beyaond the law. before you started your course you investigated it right, knew what the course expected of you, knew what equipment you needed and would have to use on the course, and still you decided to go ahead and enroll right? So what are you complaining about now?? No one forced you to take the course, you chose to! Like they say, 'nothing worth having ever comes easy' or was it 'there's no such thing as a free meal ticket'!!




a) Im not in University yet. Thats next year.
b) Im not going to be doing a music tech course. If I was, the situation would be different.
c) No, not only students have a hard time with money, but to be fair, most of the software that "we" want is very expensive.
d) No, we don't have a "God given right", but then its not *really* for anyone on a forum to say what we can and can't do.

To be honest, I agree that piracy is wrong, BUT, I don't agree that I would have to spend literally NO money for a month just to buy some software that I use for the odd song/recording.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220202 - 04/12/05 04:30 PM
Quote all_on_black:

I agree that piracy is wrong, BUT, I don't agree that I would have to spend literally NO money for a month just to buy some software that I use for the odd song/recording.



That's a contradiction. Don't record the odd song then until you can afford it.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220206 - 04/12/05 04:40 PM
Quote:

That's a contradiction. Don't record the odd song then until you can afford it.





I think you'r missing the point. Thats like saying don't eat until you can afford it. If you can't afford it, you're going to find a way to eat.

To be honest, it doesn't bother me that much, but it is *wrong*, but then life's a bitch, so what you gona do.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220207 - 04/12/05 04:40 PM
Hang on a minute ... surely at some point you had to be able to afford the computer yet you are unwilling to pay for the software to run on it. Where is the difference?

There are many similarities here with people who download music illegally too. They usually throw the "I can't afford to buy CDs" argument at you, yet they can apparently afford the broadband connection and the computer to download onto.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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gerard



Joined: 07/02/05
Posts: 2608
Loc: London, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220208 - 04/12/05 04:41 PM


hey what ever happened to working for what you want?

paying for what you use?

respecting others and treating other as you would like to be treated?

i think things have just gotten so bad... everyone just thinks its me me me and screw everyone else...

i think the new rock'n roll is gonna be based on honesty and decency... that would be funny...

it would be rebellious to actually not steal... it would be rebelious to treat others with dignity and respect...


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220209 - 04/12/05 04:46 PM
Quote all_on_black:

Thats like saying don't eat until you can afford it. If you can't afford it, you're going to find a way to eat.



Not really the same thing. You are not likely to die if you don't record a song now are you.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220215 - 04/12/05 04:55 PM
Quote:

Not really the same thing. You are not likely to die if you don't record a song now are you.




I didn't mean it quite so literally, but I know what you mean. What I'm trying to say is that at least it gets people active in the "pro audio" world. Even if it is illegal, it gets people started. Just like someone earlier mentioned that the Sex Pistols were famous for using stolen gear, at least it gave them an opportunity to perform and say what they wanted to say (and possibly what needed to be said).

And to the guy up there who mentioned Rock being friendly, one of my favorite bands, Howards Alias (who have now just split up. Very small uk band), promoted this. Their shows were always a great atmosphere and everyone was friendly. O/t but whatever

(Btw, I dont mean to be "arrogant", Im just trying to make a point that its not as simple as 'save up for it and dont do anything until you can afford it', especially if you have a real passion for what you do)

Gareth


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Q00
member


Joined: 01/10/02
Posts: 821
Loc: sussex
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220226 - 04/12/05 05:14 PM
I wish people did cracked copies of Midas desks then I wouldn't have to save up!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220231 - 04/12/05 05:19 PM
Quote all_on_black:

BUT, I don't agree that I would have to spend literally NO money for a month just to buy some software that I use for the odd song/recording.




You've got all the dots, your just having a hard time joining them up!

Beya


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Spord
member


Joined: 07/07/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Derby/Leamington
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220234 - 04/12/05 05:25 PM
I'd just like to offer an opinion (not necessarily my own, so please don't flame me) having only briefly scanned the rest of the thread, so apologies if I repeat someone else by mistake.

Several times people have used an example of a tangible product that they could simply steal if they didn't have enough money to buy it, e.g. a fast car or a house, to illustrate the illegality of cracked software.

Perhaps it's really not the same as software however. Perhaps software in and of itself has no intrinsic value at all. A piece of software requires high quality, high cost labour to develop, but can be copied in an instant with no effort. It's just a lot of machine code after all. Unfortunately a Bentley Continental GT cannot be copied in an instant, but requires high value parts and high cost labour to build each and every one. It can be argued that stealing a piece of software, AS LONG AS IT THEN DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY GAIN FOR THE USER, hurts nobody. If it's not used it wouldn't have been bought anyway, because it's not providing any gain. This point has been made by a few people. Stealing a Bentley hurts lots of people because of its intrinsic value, regardless of whether the thief drives it or not.

Of course you then have to define 'gain'. Financial or professional gain is easy. If you're using software to provide financial or professional gain you should buy the software. Period.

What about if you're using the software for personal entertainment or education? Grey area. Would you have bought the software if you could afford it? That's the tricky bit.

Maybe we need a new way of paying for software. Here's a suggestion, a bit like the UK income tax system. Software is free to download and install. You get a personal usage allowance and you declare each time the software has been used in a finished product, e.g. a CD. After you reach your allowance threshold, a percentage of the monies from the sale of the CD goes to the software developer, like tax on your earnings from the product. What's that? You used the software on your demo but you're not selling it? No problem, you pay the 'use for professional gain' tariff. What's this though? You've used this software without declaring it? Fraud.

I'll leave it to everyone to pick holes in this system, and there are probably lots. But it's an idea.

Just don't singe my eyebrows ok?

--------------------
Yes, good, very good, but everything LOUDER!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220236 - 04/12/05 05:36 PM
I'm trying to put this as simply as I can, so i'll try a mathmatical formula:

1. (product + has an associated cost)/you wish to use = you must purchase

2. (product + has an associated cost)/you wish to use but don't pay for = theft

Maths has never been my strong point, so please feel free to enhance and improve the formula as you see fit ;-)

Beya


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220240 - 04/12/05 05:39 PM
Quote:

You've got all the dots, your just having a hard time joining them up!




Heh dont quite get what you mean by that?

And what Spord just said was pretty much what i've been trying to point out. Its not like I (and probably many others) am making money from the software, just using it to gain experience and for personal enjoyment.


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220241 - 04/12/05 05:41 PM
I was going to be done with this post, but it has raised a significant question about which I have wondered for years.

Without taking a stand either way on the piracy issue, let's just say that in theory, we all believe that piracy is essentially wrong. Ignore all the details and special circumstances raised in this post...stealing is wrong. It's generally wrong to own something without paying for it if that thing's creator normally charges money for it.

What about borrowing, then? When I don't have the right garden tool for that random, one-time job, it's fine for me to borrow one from my neighbor, right? It's tacky to read a newspaper over someone's shoulder on the bus, but if that person leaves it on the seat, should I resist picking it up and reading it? And what about books? They're the direct literary equivalent of musical compositions. People loan them to each other all the time. Authors, even--I have a friend writing her third novel, struggling to get it published, and she loans me books all the time so that I don't have to go buy them. True, there's only one "possessor" of the book at any given moment, and only one person paid for it, so the payment:ownership ratio is legitimate. But most people only read books once, and if I want to read it again next year I can borrow it again. That means that I'm getting all the benefits of owning the book without paying the author for her work. Why is this socially acceptable?


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Robin Lemaire
new member


Joined: 25/03/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Oxford
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #220245 - 04/12/05 05:55 PM
And what about libraries?

A positive haven of pirating scum.

I would imagine.


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drumon



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 243
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #220252 - 04/12/05 06:18 PM
Raphus. not pointing my finger at you, only using your neat chat for others to read into.

Quote raphus:

True, there's only one "possessor" of the book at any given moment, and only one person paid for it, so the payment:ownership ratio is legitimate.






There you go! Library borrowing is legal, as is passing on books to friends. If you did the same with legal software that would be fine if you deleted it from your computer and handed on any license for registration/activation, if you manage to keep it on your machine and someone elses at the same time then clearly that is in breach of your purchase which is sold with the intention of only having one user.

Piracy is illeagal as stated by "The Law" I expect. Straightforward eh, dont do it!

I struggle to see why people want to justify piracy, they will do it anyway, what will making it "acceptable " in the community do for them (which wont happen, because of " The Law").


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gerard



Joined: 07/02/05
Posts: 2608
Loc: London, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220258 - 04/12/05 06:27 PM


just because you can easily commit a crime, a somewhat anonymous crime in the big sea of crime and shhit that this world swims in, doesn't mean its right, or that it is your right to commit this crime...

just because there is a slim chance of being caught doesn't mean it is ok to commit a crime...

there is a right and there is a wrong.

there is a legal and an illegal.

and yes it really is that simple.


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4014
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: drumon]
      #220262 - 04/12/05 06:35 PM
>There you go! Library borrowing is legal, as is passing on books to friends. If you did the same with legal software that would be fine if you deleted it from your computer and handed on any license for registration/activation, if you manage to keep it on your machine and someone elses at the same time then clearly that is in breach of your purchase which is sold with the intention of only having one user.

There was(Maybe still is) some software contracts where even giving the software to someone else was illegal. It was a non-transferrable license.

Seablade


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: drumon]
      #220263 - 04/12/05 06:35 PM
** I agree that piracy is bad. Let me just get that out of the way first. **

However, you only addressed part of my point. I followed the statement you quoted with a further statement that contradicts it. Specifically, even though my friend and I never simultaneously possess the book, by borrowing it any time I want to I am enjoying all the benefits of ownership without having paid for it. If loaning books were not socially acceptable, I would have to go out and buy it, and the author would have made more money.

I agree that software piracy is bad, but I don't know how to reconcile that with this book lending issue.


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Steve Hill
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220269 - 04/12/05 06:41 PM
Quote all_on_black:

Quote:

You've got all the dots, your just having a hard time joining them up!




Heh dont quite get what you mean by that?

And what Spord just said was pretty much what i've been trying to point out. Its not like I (and probably many others) am making money from the software, just using it to gain experience and for personal enjoyment.




Frauds and embezzlers have been saying, since the dawn of time, when they get nicked "I was only borrowing it... I was going to put it back".

Personal enjoyment is not a defence. My neighbour is away for the weekend and his rather tasty sports car is on the drive... I'm sure it will be OK if I borrow it for my personal enjoyment...

The basic problem is nobody ever gets nicked, including it seems some industrial-scale scammers on eBay. As long as the law turns a blind eye, people are going to get more and more complacent.

If you thought there was a real risk that you might get a criminal conviction, blighting e.g. your employment prospects for years to come, would you do it?

I have said before in this forum that you can get started (to the point of making pretty respectable records) with an entry level copy of Cubase VST from Amazon for under £20. There is certainly enough "learning" in such a package to get anyone through a half-decent college course.

--------------------
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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5664
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220288 - 04/12/05 07:08 PM
Quote:

What about borrowing, then? When I don't have the right garden tool for that random, one-time job, it's fine for me to borrow one from my neighbor, right?




Raphus, you've raised an interesting point : interesting because it is wrong. There is no End User License agreement for a garden rake - you are making an absolute purchase of that particular item. With software, you are making a purchase of the license and the distribution media subject to the conditions of the End User License Agreement which prohibit transfer of the license. If you sell it on ( without upgrading ) then as a courtesy and in order to be seen to be providing good service many companies may transfer the license - but are under no legal obligation to do so.

It's worth pointing this out. There are license agreements everywhere - we should all keep 'em peeled and check our positions really......


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220291 - 04/12/05 07:13 PM
Just one other minor point : yes, this topic does come up quite often. And it is worth it every time as we constantly keep having to repeat the same points over and over. There is a lot of misunderstandings about what this is all about out there and if it can't be discussed here, then where? There aren't classes that deal with software licensing - it has to be learned from those who have experience of it.

This is perhaps the longest student-based piracy thread for a while, and a couple of the comments ( from people who actually lecture in this subject!! ) should be interesting to students. Hopefully this thread has at least served to inform casual forumees....


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Ben



Joined: 27/06/03
Posts: 1887
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: David Lewthwaite]
      #220303 - 04/12/05 07:31 PM
Quote dave-lew99:

NO-ONE should be unable to do a course simply because they cannot afford to recreate the universities facilities at home




How absurd. One of the reasons you are paying thousands to study at a college is because they have special facilities. No college course requires a student to recreate facilties at home. Colleges will allow you sufficient time with these facilities to complete a given task. If they don't, the college isn't worth it's salt.

There really isn't any way around this, guys. Suggesting that your 'passion' is being stifled because someone wants to charge you for tools to express it is brainless. What are you passionate about? Music technology? Then show respect for it. If you are simply passionate about being creative, this is easily achieved for free.

If all software was hugely expensive and offered little variation or development, you might be justified in assuming this 'crusade of the common man'. But so much is available for so little, with a hugely supportive network of other users. If you're truly creative, you'll follow others in making the most of limited means.


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Arse Bandit



Joined: 17/09/01
Posts: 2795
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ben]
      #220319 - 04/12/05 07:42 PM
Damned right - I did a Computer Science degree, and never owned my own computer until 8 years after I graduated. They have equipment at seats of learning, y'know.

Folk are so darned me-me-me these days it's makes me vomit.


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raphus
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dave B]
      #220327 - 04/12/05 07:50 PM
Quote Dave B:

Quote:

What about borrowing, then? When I don't have the right garden tool for that random, one-time job, it's fine for me to borrow one from my neighbor, right?




Raphus, you've raised an interesting point : interesting because it is wrong. There is no End User License agreement for a garden rake - you are making an absolute purchase of that particular item. With software, you are making a purchase of the license and the distribution media subject to the conditions of the End User License Agreement which prohibit transfer of the license.





Excellent point. (...although I am not wrong in confirming that it's OK for me to borrow my neighbor's gardening tool.) So the End User License is the mechanism by which software companies combat software theft, and since book publishers have not utilized this mechanism, it's OK to mooch off of my friend's book library. This still doesn't explain why this is the case. The fact remains that if book lending were not socially acceptable, more people would buy books and authors would make more money.

I suspect that the reason is historical. Our culture was very different, much younger, and our population much lower, when books first came onto the scene. (Although it must be noted that companies were no less concerned with profits back then...) By the time software developers appeared, businesses had had more time to invent a profit-securing business strategy like the End User License. Software developers started their businesses using this strategy, so nobody had any other expectations. Some businesses, like book publishers, however, probably decided that it would be unwise for them to adopt the End User License strategy, because it would probably just alienate their customers who had come to expect the ability to borrow each other's books.

I am against software piracy. It seems silly to complain about having to spend $50 on a program that performs functions that would have cost $50,000 in 1985, and it also seems silly to expect that theft will magically stop simply because it is wrong. I just want to understand the nuances of the matter--some of which seem pretty contradictory, others less so. It will be interesting to see where this all goes in 20 years.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Commander]
      #220328 - 04/12/05 07:50 PM
Quote Commander:

I can't afford a Bentley Continental GT. Think I'll just go and steal one until I can afford to buy one.




yeah and while your at it let me loan it for a while, well because I need it more than others becuase i'm a professional don't you know!!! ;-)

Beya


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Bertyjnr
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220347 - 04/12/05 08:18 PM
Without getting involved in an overdone debate whose points just hit each other in circles -

Reason 3.0; £300. Educational disocunt; £150. That's 50%! It's a bargain anyway. A bargain half price is just a big kiss!

Oh, there's nothing homophobic about the word "pussy" used derogatorily - you could make an argument for it being misogynistic, maybe...

Okay, I will get involved. You can't simply say your moral viewpoint on what is and isn't theft is only determined by law. Laws vary from country to country. As has been pointed out, you would never have gotten to know many artists and bands copying cassettes when you were a kid. Even if that was wrong, I bet you don't regret it. And you must agree you should be able to rip the CD you bought to MP3 for your portable player, even if this is illegal in some places and in Sony's eyes. Agreed so far? Good.

The piracy issue is more complicated than it might seem. It is true some companies have accepted cracks to gain a foothold in the market, for example.

But excusing yourself for using a cracked copy of Cubase because you can't afford it for your general work is invalid. You could buy a cheapo sequencer. By not doing so, you're also depriving the budget end of the market with income.

Everyone can afford to buy at least some of the software they use, even if it means living on beans for a while. It comes down to the strength of the individual's will, which is ultimately their decision.


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Thefairwayband
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: David Lewthwaite]
      #220356 - 04/12/05 08:59 PM
Quote dave-lew99:



If not that then maybe the suite should be 24hours? Or the software should be available like the universities Antivirus and VB.Net programming suite - on a site license and any student can take a copy and legally use it (as long as not for profit)




Of course it should be open more. That's an issue with the university itself. As someone who went to an average university with a terrible library back in the pre-'Net days, I was very frustrated having such poor resources to learn from. I grew increasingly jealous of universities with 24-hour libraries. Have you complained to the university itself? If you could rally up enough support, actually get other people who feel likewise to complain, perhaps an alteration in the opening hours could be applied. I know that requires a bit of effort, something 50% of the students at my place didn't have, but try it, you might get some results. The university is there to serve you, if they aren't doing a good job then you have every right to bitch and complain.


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Steve Hill
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #220384 - 04/12/05 10:14 PM
Quote raphus:

...although I am not wrong in confirming that it's OK for me to borrow my neighbor's gardening tool




No, not with permission.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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raphus
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Joined: 20/02/03
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #220397 - 04/12/05 11:11 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote raphus:

...although I am not wrong in confirming that it's OK for me to borrow my neighbor's gardening tool




No, not with permission.




Thank you for that critical addition to this discussion. Yes, I would need my neighbor's permission.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220399 - 04/12/05 11:20 PM
Thought I might just mention that licences apply to the music you buy too. When you buy a CD you are not buying the music at all, but rather purchasing a licence to listen to the music. The actual music itself remains the property of the artist and publisher. This is why copying a CD is technically illegal since you would need to obtain a further licence; ie buy another CD. Of course, having bought the initial CD nobody will frown on you for making copies for your own use, but software piracy is different since you didn't actually obtain (pay for) the initial licence to use it in the first place.

It's one thing copying a CD but quite another copying software, although ethically, technically and legally it is exactly the same thing.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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...................
member


Joined: 23/02/04
Posts: 781
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220405 - 04/12/05 11:36 PM
Yawn...
Why does everyone keep bleating about needing better software etc to realise their so-far-undiscovered potential?
So many great writers, musicians, engineers, producers achieved their greatness whilst being limited by their working environment, and yet relished it! Thinking (it's late, and in no order of merit) George Martin, Brian Eno, Beethoven , Mozart, Bowie, Propellerheads, the list goes on etc.
How many SOS 'classic track' type articles ever result in a quote like '...and it wasn't until Cubase SX3 that I felt truly released...' ?
If you're going to play the game, then grow up please guys. It's not the tools, it's the workman, to paraphrase an old proverb.

-edit- In fact I think MOST composers/writers have to work within limited constraints, that's part of the process - we'd all like a live orchestra in *here* , Jimi Hendrix to solo over *those* 8 bars, or Lennon to write a witty line *here*. Yeah, right.


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5664
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220414 - 04/12/05 11:54 PM
Raphus, Yes you are right : the copyright restrictions on books are a lot older than on software, although they do get updated :

(From Terry Pratchett's Thud )
All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior permission of the publishers.

It is worth noting the typical EULA for music ( yes, we buy a license and media on that ) which was developed before commercial software got to it's current stage. That reads :

The rights of the producer and the owner of the recorded work reserved. Unauthorised copying, public performance, broadcasting, hiring or rental of this work prohibited. So sucks to you

Which is what I put on the last album I released and is the standard copyright clause that should be somewhere on any album that you buy. Under that, I can lend someone an album, but if they make a copy, the copyright has been violated. Tut tut.

I'd publish a typical EULA but it is now huge and complex and I can't really be bothered. But just as the music copyright restrictions were more complex than the original book ones, so modern software is more complex still. Simply putting 'Don't knick it in any way or else' doesn't cut it these days it seems....


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5664
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220416 - 04/12/05 11:55 PM
PS: what Herewego said !!


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raphus
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dave B]
      #220426 - 05/12/05 12:21 AM
I also completely agree with what herewego said. The music that can be made on a collection of buckets and cans by some kids on a street corner is usually more interesting that what is played on most radio stations. And those buckets and cans were cheap.

The fact that I'm not allowed to copy a book still does not address the fact that I can borrow it as often as I like, thereby enjoying all the benefits of ownership without giving any money to its author. I'll excuse myself from this post now, though, since I seem to be the only one interested in this phenomenon.


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DavidW



Joined: 30/09/04
Posts: 1839
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ...................]
      #220428 - 05/12/05 12:24 AM
Apologies if this goes on..

As a research student, I'd like to contribute an opinion.

The problem I find is that increasingly undergraduate students expect the world from their university courses, when this is just not possible. Yes, they do pay fees (as I do, albeit through scholarship), but that does not mean that they will get a super-fast computer with the latest software on it. Their fees go on a multiplicity of items and expenditures, whether they like it or not - that's the way it works. Yes universities try and keep up with the latest technology, but you have to remember that whenever they want to upgrade they either have to tender or if they're lucky, they get a research grant. They also have to upgrade every computer in the suite to ensure that every student in that year is using the same equipment, otherwise its not fair. The capital involved when there are 30+ PCs is considerable. In a very tightly controlled arena, I think mustech depts have a very difficult task of keeping up with latest equipment and teaching new techniques/software. That said, there are still amazing things you can do on old computers, it'll just take a bit longer.

Secondly, some students still expect the degree of spoon-feeding that took place in college. This is wrong. Universities are a place of learning, whether under instruction or through individual learning. Students who don't investigate in their own time won't suceed. Which brings me on to the problem of equipment. It is the student's responsibility to use what they have as creatively as possible. I think Herewego said it quite succinctly. In my undergraduate days, I found an old AppleMac running some software which I learnt to program. I spent as much time as I could in the studio learning it until I was familiar and could work it with ease. I then based my dissertation on it. What I'm saying is that yes lectures may consume a day, but there is still some time available. If there isn't then its a student's responsibility to complain.

Students should be content with what they've got. They should realise that you don't need the latest update to get the best sound. They may expect it but its not practicable. You can still do some amazing stuff with old tools. Its up to students to find out. If lecturers dont tell them, then students should ask! They shouldn't be expected to be spoon-fed, or spoon-led

Sorry, rant over!

Edit - People can abuse books/libraries by photocopying too much..

--------------------
David

Edited by DavidW (05/12/05 12:27 AM)


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narcoman
active member


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220431 - 05/12/05 12:48 AM
well,

the thing is this - same with everything - its evolve or die.

People WOULD steal from your house if it wasnt locked. Similarly people use pirated software becasue they can. when teh manufacturers either fold up cuz they cant sustain an income any longer OR make pirating very hard or neaxt to impossible then they will. and that will be an end to it.

Its the same with music piracy - we can whine and moan all we like about piracy destroying the music industry, and some can whine the opposing story of the majors bringing it upon themselvs. The labels and majors even moan about this. Everyone is always looking for someone to blame. Do you know who survives and wins? Those who learn to survive given the current conditions. Those who evolve and find a new way to generate earnings. Piracy and theft is wrong. But whose gonna stop it? this is a losing debate with no answer. things seldom have the simple one term solution we all look for. Evolve.

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....


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ben m
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Joined: 27/04/03
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220439 - 05/12/05 01:23 AM
I always try to avoid these piracy threads whenever possible but thought I'd make a comment on this one.
Comparing piracy to theft is always a contentious issue and I personally feel that there is a difference between piracy and what we commonly acknowledge as theft. (and apologies to everyone who have read the myriad threads that inevitably end up mentioning stealing your neighbours ferrari - I will try not to mention said Italian car manufacturer)

If I/you want to download a cracked copy of whatever software (audio or not) I/you could do so in the knowledge that I have not deprived another individual the right to use that product - if I download a pirated copy of, for arguments sake, Ableton Live, then I have not broken into my mates house and taken his copy and deleted the program from his/her hard drive preventing him/her from using it. That to me is the textbook definition of theft, the unlawful taking of a tangible good.

I would not dream of breaking into my neighbours house and stealing CDs - I could however download my neighbours music collection from P2P software and feel content that I have not prevented my neighbour from listening to his music collection.

This is, again in my humble opinion, why people pirate software. If pirating software actually involved denying a legitimate user the ability to use the goods they have purchased (or purchased a license to use) then I think you would see piracy decline by a huger percentage almost overnight.

Everyone would steal if their life depended on it, but other than that you can broadly say that there are 2 types of people - those who would steal and those who would not steal. People from both of these groups will used cracked software as piracy is not stealing in the traditional sense - you are not denying another human being from what they have earnt.

Yes you can throw in arguments about software developers making less revenue, programmers having to implement security measures which degrade performance etc but the fact of the matter is that as long as piracy is seen as 'harmless' on the most base of levels (i.e. not depriving another individual) it will continue to thrive.

If it was a case of 'piracy is theft' then all the people out there pirating software would also be stealing from shops, friends, neighbours and committing credit card fraud.

This of course is the 'cancer' (or at least is until film studios/record labels/software devlopers change their model) of the digital age - with everything boiled down to 0 & 1s, I could sit down in front of my computer and copy the binary code from one prog/song/video to make my own identical copy/clone of the prog/song video. Yes it could take years but it wouldn't have hurt anyone...would it?

I feel that to approach the warez debate with the blinkered approach of 'piracy is theft' is missing the point - the makority of people who copy software/audio/video don't see it as stealing, they see it as getting 'something for nothing' - this is very different. the warez groups are offering a product - they are not stealing from another human being.

Maybe you could, to an extent, compare software piracy with benefit fraud - people committing this offence don't necessarily see themselves as thieves as they are not (directly) taking money from other people. Instead they are getting 'something for nothing'.

Maybe comparing piracy with fraud would be more apt? - Theft is in the eye of the beholder.

Edited by ben m (05/12/05 01:27 AM)


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220444 - 05/12/05 02:02 AM
i don't what it is you people fail to understand. Eventually the onus of burden is laid at our, and I mean those interested in actually investing in the tools they need to do their job!, doorstep because it is the law abiding purchaser that has to foot the tab for the increase in software price due to extended development times required to enhance software sercurity. ok, I have invested in nuendo...which cost me £1300. What use would that investment be to me if software pirates were to drive Steinberg into abandoning develpment of this product due to the fact that in real terms it has become too expensive to plough anymore revenue into R&D for this product. So you see it's not just the software house you are depriving, you are ultimately also depriving me of my investment.

Beya


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TTN



Joined: 14/11/04
Posts: 1087
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ben m]
      #220445 - 05/12/05 02:16 AM
Quote ben m:

If I/you want to download a cracked copy of whatever software (audio or not) I/you could do so in the knowledge that I have not deprived another individual the right to use that product - if I download a pirated copy of, for arguments sake, Ableton Live, then I have not broken into my mates house and taken his copy and deleted the program from his/her hard drive preventing him/her from using it. That to me is the textbook definition of theft, the unlawful taking of a tangible good.




Agreed.

But the 'piracy is theft' argument should be centered around the software developers, rather than the consumer, based on the fact that they receive less money as a result of people copying their produce. But this argument is hardly cut and dried. Here's why:

- You can't prove that people who copy and use pirated software would actually shell out the money to buy it. They may well go without. Hell, if they had money, they'd probably go out and buy something useful like hardware instead.

- The overheads for software are massively lower than for hardware. Companies like Kurzweil, Ensoniq, Yamaha etc., realised this in the 80's, and created their hardware from stock components (from other companies), and concentrated on designing software OS's for them instead.

- Sometimes you don't get paid fairly for what you do. Look at those kids in the sweatshops in China. Who makes the money? The same people who tell you it's criminal that China pirates so much recorded music... they're Communists duh.

- The fact that software is just data makes it inherently different from hardware. If you could copy that Brauner mic a dozen times and give one to all your friends would you?

Not that i'm playing devil's advocate or anything

And before any of you spend £1300 on a new copy of the esquisitely engineered Nuendo (sorry Karl, we wasted the entire R&D budget on track colours, so it would look as good as Logic), remember you spent around a 10th of that on a very ramshackle made OS, and for less than half of that you could have bought an MMT-8


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nmkDom



Joined: 16/02/05
Posts: 106
Loc: The Toon
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220460 - 05/12/05 06:56 AM
I bought all my software, including Nuendo, BUT I use a cracked version. I installed the original then uninstalled it and put it away. WHY? because the dongle is a pain in the neck and sometimes crashes the program. I'm not interested in why it does that, or what fixes I should use. The cracked version works just fine.


--------------------
No More Kisses


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geoffmartin



Joined: 05/09/04
Posts: 618
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220463 - 05/12/05 07:18 AM
ahahahahahaaaa - these threads are always hilarious!

--------------------
Current Favourite!


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220479 - 05/12/05 09:04 AM
I blame the software Co's. The whole culture of the web is built around freedom and things for free.

Remember Paint Shop and their clever business model of giving away fully functional shareware to get their market coverage and brand stamped into the head of the webs human module.

I see downloading music as something akin to taping from the radio. Its not the same I know. But im sure the emotion is the same in a kid getting a freebie from some download site. And a fourteen year old 'me' taping tracks from the Nicky Horn [who???] show or from Fluff [eh???].

So many things are free. And as someone said above. How about libraries. I wonder how many people have a shelf full of cd's or a media player full of tracks ripped from libraries? And before that people taped vinyl from friends and libraries, quite often on an industrial scale.

If you want to stop piracy, you have to stop selling nothing. Which is what software and digital data is. Its not even neccesary to have the data or application stored on one shelf or box. The thing can be spread over a number of servers. But its just a box of jumble which is bugger all until aligned and arranged by a code in a manner recognisable by an OS. Now reduced to a stream of radio waves.

Great art has always come from poverty. The next new style, the next progression in music wont come from some beautiful commercial studio. It will be copied, smoothed and commercialised there. But it will come from the street and some dizzy kid working on no budget, a nicked computer and some cracked software. As pretty much always happens.

I dont condone piracy, ultimately its theft! But if you leave your car door unlocked with a pile of twenties in the glove box. You cant complain too much when someone nicks the money. Its terrible for sure. Its a sad reflection on society, oh yes. Its taking bread out of the mouths of creative people, no doubt about that. But it might help if the industries that create the product make it a bit harder to steal. Selling bits of data is a beautiful idea but ultimately a con thats backfired.

As usual I blame the robots. Versatran Series F!.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220495 - 05/12/05 09:46 AM
I don't agree the onus is on the manufacturers to stop theft - remember those insidious defence lawyers a few years ago who used to defend rapists by saying the girl was wearing a short skirt?
How about this for a solution : you get a credit card reader to plug-in to a USB port, before you can open the software you have to swipe your credit card and the access code is also your credit card number. Everytime you open the software you need to swipe your card. How many ersatz Robin Hoods would give everybody a copy of their credit card so that their friends or customers could use illegal software?


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: nmkDom]
      #220500 - 05/12/05 09:57 AM
Quote nmkDom:

I installed the original then uninstalled it and put it away. WHY? because the dongle is a pain in the neck and sometimes crashes the program. I'm not interested in why it does that, or what fixes I should use. The cracked version works just fine.




What a load of rubbish. I too use Nuendo, version 3.2 to be precise, and ever since version 2...low and behold with the same dongle that has never caused the machine to crash!! And since when has purchasing a valid version of a program then given you the right to use an illegal copy??

Beya


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #220506 - 05/12/05 10:06 AM
Quote noiseconjecture:

I don't agree the onus is on the manufacturers to stop theft




Neither do I, but I dont live in a crime free state either. So I have to be a realist about the security of my property.

The credit card number is a good one. I once bought an audio to midi utility that used my card no as the password.

But this wont stop a cracker. Its just a code right. And we already have those. It would stop the 'friends sharing' thing probably. But thats a small part of the whole.

And as for young girls in short skirts 'asking for it'. Well those lawyers you speak of still use this defence. And in a recent survey in the UK. A rather large number of people seem to agree with them.


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220507 - 05/12/05 10:10 AM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote nmkDom:

I installed the original then uninstalled it and put it away. WHY? because the dongle is a pain in the neck and sometimes crashes the program. I'm not interested in why it does that, or what fixes I should use. The cracked version works just fine.




What a load of rubbish. I too use Nuendo, version 3.2 to be precise, and ever since version 2...low and behold with the same dongle that has never caused the machine to crash!! And since when has purchasing a valid version of a program then given you the right to use an illegal copy??

Beya




You might find that its the dregs of an improperly removed cracked copy thats screwing the real one!

Crackers hide nasty sh!t in their work too. You can never really trust that theres not a bot hidden in there thats doing some devilment!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220514 - 05/12/05 10:18 AM
Quote ow:

You might find that its the dregs of an improperly removed cracked copy thats screwing the real one!

Crackers hide nasty sh!t in their work too. You can never really trust that theres not a bot hidden in there thats doing some devilment!




Exactly!!

Beya


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Ben



Joined: 27/06/03
Posts: 1887
Loc: Oxford
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220515 - 05/12/05 10:18 AM
By using cracked software, you may not be denying an individual from using a product in the short term. But if most of those who wanted to use software refused to pay for it, they would be denying everyone from using a continuously developed and supported item when it was no longer available.

We can't measure how many users of illegal software would have actually purchased it. But, equally, how many potential customers decide they don't need to pay? Surely, we could all claim that we never had any intention of actually paying for it?

This defense concerns me the most. It shows absolutely no value for something, but a wish to own it all the same.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ben]
      #220521 - 05/12/05 10:35 AM
Quote Ben:

It shows absolutely no value for something, but a wish to own it all the same.



Here lies the dichotomy. By using cracked software you are suggesting that the software is worthless, but by deciding that you need it you are giving it a value. Why people are not prepared to pay for something that will benefit them is beyond me.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
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__
Who's never been here


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Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Commander]
      #220528 - 05/12/05 10:50 AM
I think the thing is deeper than that. There are many people using pirate software. Listening to copied cd's. Who would never dream of walking into woolies and palming one off the shelf. Fine upstanding people who read the Mail. Its the same mentality as the office worker whos sideboard is full of office stationary. He thinks its an okay victimless crime, a perk!

Then we have an iPod that can hold a squillion songs [or say 10 grands worth of music or so] and a bundled media player thats a piraters dream. Particularly when used in conjunction with that CD artwork site. Theres a lot of double standard going on. Mixed messages to the kids.


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Dark Fader
sith lord


Joined: 03/01/04
Posts: 652
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220538 - 05/12/05 11:18 AM
Quote ow:

Fine upstanding people who read the Mail.




Surely that's an oxymoron.

I do agree with you about the mixed messages being given to the kids. Most just don't even consider that music is supposed to be paid for. Yet a lot of them want to make a living as musicians!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #220540 - 05/12/05 11:20 AM
No matter what way you look at it, no matter what shape or form it comes in, theft is theft.

Beya

Edited by beyarecords (05/12/05 11:20 AM)


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Dark Fader
sith lord


Joined: 03/01/04
Posts: 652
Loc: Death Star
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220544 - 05/12/05 11:23 AM
Quote beyarecords:

No matter what way you look at it, no matter what shape or form it comes in, theft is theft.

Beya




Abso-motherf*ckin-lutely.

But I'm a great believer in karma, and those who steal will get their comeuppance.


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220548 - 05/12/05 11:30 AM
Quote beyarecords:

No matter what way you look at it, no matter what shape or form it comes in, theft is theft.
Beya




Yes, but my general drift is that some people dont see this kind of thing as theft. And I'm trying to explore the subject a bit to find out why.

Otherwise its just "off with his head". Without ever finding out what was in his head first!


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Michael Harrison
active member


Joined: 10/09/02
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220553 - 05/12/05 11:33 AM
Quote all_on_black:

Meh, you have a point, but to be fair, its not like your avarage student can afford to spend £500 odd on software. My 'theory' on it is that I'll buy it when I'm making money from it, or when I can afford to buy it (ie, when I'm in a full time job earning lots of money)... at least people are getting used to these systems and when they can actually afford them they might go and buy them, because they've had good performance from their cracked version. At least we're playing on the same team a bit.




No offence, but this is nonsense. If you get a £500 bonus, I doubt you are you going to think "Right, now I've got the funds I'm going to pay for a legit copy of Cubase to replace the cracked version I've been using". I could be wrong, but I'd also be highly surprised.

The 'can't afford' argument is bullshit IMHO. I also aired my views on it in another thread.

Mike

--------------------
www.ehsound.co.uk - Live Sound Hire & Services


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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #220556 - 05/12/05 11:38 AM
Quote raphus:


Specifically, even though my friend and I never simultaneously possess the book, by borrowing it any time I want to I am enjoying all the benefits of ownership without having paid for it. If loaning books were not socially acceptable, I would have to go out and buy it, and the author would have made more money.

I agree that software piracy is bad, but I don't know how to reconcile that with this book lending issue.




... but the book can only be used in one place at one time - it's like a hardware dongle for a software package. It's the same as lending someone a guitar. If you photocopied the whole book or scanned it, that would be like using "cracked" software ...



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Sarge



Joined: 06/06/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: Norfolk
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #220560 - 05/12/05 11:43 AM
Must be even harder to deicide to buy SX with a £500 bonus if they've got to buy all the cracked plugins they're using as well. As is often the case they've got too much software to use.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #220564 - 05/12/05 11:52 AM
Quote beyarecordsMr Bill gates can afford to charge whatever prices he likes due to the fact that he created the product, you know burt that midnight oil to enable us all to do what we do now on PC's!
Beya




yeah,right! Go talk to Dec, Xerox, etc., who apparently were at one time Microsoft`s R&D department! Ol` Bill`s the biggest pirate of all, just that nowadays he`s too big to sue for the mo:


part.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: IvanSC]
      #220594 - 05/12/05 12:43 PM
Quote IvanSC:

yeah,right! Go talk to Dec, Xerox, etc., who apparently were at one time Microsoft`s R&D department! Ol` Bill`s the biggest pirate of all, just that nowadays he`s too big to sue for the mo"] part.




Well ain't that the opportunity for you to be the bigger man then. Because Ol' Bill may be a schumck doesn't mean you have to join him in being one as well does it, afterall two wrongs never make a right?!

Beya


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220616 - 05/12/05 01:17 PM
I also responded to the "other thread" as Michael puts it, so I don't want to retype my diatribe here, but suffice it say, any arguments you create for using cracked software are excuses and cop outs. It is wrong, period. There is nothing more to say, and no way you can rationalize it.

As far as the "borrowing" comments go...

Borrowing is not copying. Borrowing is using someone else's property and then returning it, not duplicating it, using it, and then destroying your copy.

When I borrow my neighbor's rake, he does not have a rake to use, does he?

If I want to borrow my neighbor's Cubase SX then, I should borrow the entire PC with the software loaded, record my song, and then return the PC. During that time, my neighbor would not be able to use his copy of Cubase because I had it.

Now *that's* borrowing.

Sheesh! These threads really show how far we have fallen in our society. The End Times are a-comin' my friends.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220688 - 05/12/05 03:19 PM
Quote:

What a load of rubbish. I too use Nuendo, version 3.2 to be precise, and ever since version 2...low and behold with the same dongle that has never caused the machine to crash!! And since when has purchasing a valid version of a program then given you the right to use an illegal copy??



Am I wrong in believing you can make a single copy for backup purposes? It probably depends on the country/developer, but I'm sure i've read it somewhere.

Quote:

No offence, but this is nonsense. If you get a £500 bonus, I doubt you are you going to think "Right, now I've got the funds I'm going to pay for a legit copy of Cubase to replace the cracked version I've been using". I could be wrong, but I'd also be highly surprised.




Maybe someone wouldnt replace a cracked copy, but they may purchase the next version, if they did get the said bouns.
To be fair, I agree with you - I would much prefer to spend £500 on say some pre-amps or mic's, but I'm thinking if a "crack user" were to start a commercial business, then the said user may BUY that particular software over other products.

Quote:

Must be even harder to deicide to buy SX with a £500 bonus if they've got to buy all the cracked plugins they're using as well. As is often the case they've got too much software to use.




I'll admit to using cracked software, but I DO try to use as many free (legitimatley free!) plugin's and samples as possible, and try to keep the software I use to a minimum aswell. Its not all about having *everything* for free

Quote:

Well ain't that the opportunity for you to be the bigger man then. Because Ol' Bill may be a schumck doesn't mean you have to join him in being one as well does it, afterall two wrongs never make a right?!




Im fairly sure that in maths I was taught minus multiplied by minus equals plus... (sorry )

I'm not trying to justify pirated software, I just like the discussion.

Gareth


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Shingles
active member


Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1081
Loc: Worcester, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: D.Crowley]
      #220689 - 05/12/05 03:24 PM
Quote D.Crowley:



And a final one on the people who have been comparing it to people using your music with out crediting you... People are not taking this software as their own and trying to say they created it, they are simply using it for pleasure. So for the comparison if I were making music for pleasure or atleast trying to get a deal then I'd be very happy for any of you to take my music and spread it around...get it as far as you can please!




You miss my point entirely.
Quote:


When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!.


Daniel.




..so here it is again. What if the listening public don't pay because they can download your music free?

--------------------
Nik
Godin, Axon, Tonelab, Repeater & the skin of my teeth!


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Arse Bandit



Joined: 17/09/01
Posts: 2795
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ghr]
      #220723 - 05/12/05 04:29 PM
Quote all_on_black:

I'll admit to using cracked software, but I DO try to use as many free (legitimatley free!) plugin's and samples as possible, and try to keep the software I use to a minimum aswell. Its not all about having *everything* for free




??

"I stole that software, but the other stuff's legal".

Can you really, honestly, justify your statements? Seriously?


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ghr



Joined: 18/12/04
Posts: 272
Loc: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220751 - 05/12/05 05:09 PM
Quote:

"I stole that software, but the other stuff's legal".

Can you really, honestly, justify your statements? Seriously?




Like I said, I wasn't trying to justify, just making a point that not everyone wants to have EVERYTHING. Like I said, I try to use free alternatives, rather than cracking something, but there are a few things which *I dont want to spend the money on* that I have cracked. Like I said, not justifying - just commenting.

*dont want to spend the money on because i've just priced up some gear I want to buy, to have a fairly basic multitracking system, and the cabling is going to cost me £75 alone. Then there's the rest. Its an expensive hobby, and some things have to get pushed to the back of the que.*

Edited by all_on_black (05/12/05 05:10 PM)


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Shingles]
      #220755 - 05/12/05 05:17 PM
Quote Shingles:


Quote:


When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!.


Daniel.




..so here it is again. What if the listening public don't pay because they can download your music free?



Exactly - well put!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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Mathieu



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 6
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220770 - 05/12/05 05:59 PM
Like everyone else I have to chime in into this discussion :P

My main gripe with cracked software is it competes with legitimate, free software. If the user base of such software (audacity, ardour, rosegarden, etc...) would grow, we could expect the software to improve much faster

(More users = a slight chance of more developers, and more bug reports etc...)

Which is somewhat of an ironic vicious circle, when you think about it: by wanting free software but not using the legitimate ones (those "free as in freedom") they are actually pushing them back...

---

On another note, I think one of the problem (why there is such a huge amount of piracy) also resides in the way the products are marketed, and the magazines do not help either. There is usually a complete product line for each product, with a "lite" version usually 100% suitable for amateurs, and at a price they can afford. But companies and magazines always seem to focus on the high-end version of the product, creating the illusion that you actually *need* those features, where you could probably live without (if you're a pro, then you probably pay anyway, so this doesn't apply to you )

This does not justify piracy, and it's still the user's fault if he pirates Cubase SX instead of buying the SE version... just something to think about


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Ben



Joined: 27/06/03
Posts: 1887
Loc: Oxford
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: D.Crowley]
      #220793 - 05/12/05 07:10 PM
Quote D.Crowley:

When I get the deal and the money then I'd buy the software and collect my money from the now paying listening public!




And when I pull wearing the aftershave I stole from Boots, I'll go back and give them the money.


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David Lewthwaite



Joined: 09/01/05
Posts: 627
Loc: On the Wirral these days
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220805 - 05/12/05 07:38 PM
Mathieu has a point there, a little like the points raised for Top Gear - its all very well having reviews of flagship and expensive products but where does that leave the people on a budget?

Perhaps SOS should have a permanant column for Freeware and perhaps Shareware with links to websites, guides and tutorials.

This isn't to say SOS is without mentioning free software - i have downloaded software from links in the magazine countless numbers of times - and useful it has been, but i think somthing more substantial and permanant is a good idea.

Another idea is when doing tutorials for say 'Cubase' have a box somewhere that says 'This applies to the following versions: then list Cubase SL 2.x+ Cubase SE etc' To make it clear, and then someone whose read the article wont then go "ah, i can't actually do that" when they sit down at their computer and hence save time (the SOS mag already takes me ages to get through!!)

--------------------
David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #220870 - 05/12/05 09:50 PM
Quote Bill C:

Quote raphus:


Specifically, even though my friend and I never simultaneously possess the book, by borrowing it any time I want to I am enjoying all the benefits of ownership without having paid for it. If loaning books were not socially acceptable, I would have to go out and buy it, and the author would have made more money.

I agree that software piracy is bad, but I don't know how to reconcile that with this book lending issue.




... but the book can only be used in one place at one time - it's like a hardware dongle for a software package. It's the same as lending someone a guitar. If you photocopied the whole book or scanned it, that would be like using "cracked" software ...






Quote Doublehelix:


Borrowing is not copying. Borrowing is using someone else's property and then returning it, not duplicating it, using it, and then destroying your copy.

When I borrow my neighbor's rake, he does not have a rake to use, does he?

If I want to borrow my neighbor's Cubase SX then, I should borrow the entire PC with the software loaded, record my song, and then return the PC. During that time, my neighbor would not be able to use his copy of Cubase because I had it.

Now *that's* borrowing.







Believe it or not, I really do understand that copying the book is different than reading it any time I like. Unfortunately the book analogy is not perfect, because one does not need to copy a book to fully enjoy the benefits of ownership.

My point remains that if book lending were not socially acceptable, authors would make more money. It's as simple as that. I think it's worth considering this contradiction--denying authors their income simply because I want to enjoy book-owning benefits for free is socially acceptable, but denying software developers their income because for the same reason is socially unacceptable. The motives and the end results are the same, but one is OK while the other is illegal and immoral. Am I the only one who thinks it might be informative to consider this?


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mnah



Joined: 10/08/05
Posts: 69
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220892 - 05/12/05 10:41 PM
Interesting stuff.

Firstly - let me say that I do not count myself as 'perfect' when it comes to the issue of software/cd piracy. However.... I am getting there.

My point is that it seems to be an educational problem. As others have pointed out, and I agree, there is simply no difference at all in copying a version of, say, Live, than going into DV and swiping a copy off the shelf. And yet so many people would be horrified at the thought of the latter, and not the former.

A few examples......

Whilst on a BA plane coming back from holiday last year, the prized "readers letter" was from a bloke saying how wonderful it was that you could buy a bunch of CDs from wollys, copy them onto your ipod, and then take the cds back for a refund, whilst leaving the music on said ipod. Not only did this get published, but the guy won a prize for his theivery!!!

Similarly, I was at dinner with a friend the other night, who, when i raised an eyebrow at the fact that she had ripped a bunch of her friends cds for her own useage, said "whats wrong with that, it's not illegal is it?"

My point is, it seems that for whatever reason people in general do not see theft of a physical product and theft of a 'virtual' product (for want of a better description) as the same thing. I cant help thinking that the advent of things like iTunes and iPod, as well as the ability to burn cds at all domestically (of which more later) have unintentioanlly made this the case.

I should also point out (coming back to my 'not perfect' statement earlier) that when I first got a CD writer back in about '96, the first thing I did was rip a whole load of cds and copy them. I was among those who saw no difference. I have spent the last few years buying all the cds that I had copied ( which I have to say is a VERY dull way to spend money, but good karma) so that my entire cd collection is now legit. I only mention this because it suddenly dawned on me a few years back that it seems like it's mainly people in the music industry who steal from the music industry, and then (like myself) complain about the state of said music industry!!!!! Now thats just plain stupid as far as I'm concerned.

There are all sorts of reasons why people justify using cracked or copied software, and probably 99.9% of them are just wrong. I strongly believe that we need to support software developers (as hard as that may be sometimes when they seem to not support us sometimes) given that more and more of us rely on them for our livelyhood

Thats all

Matt


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #220896 - 05/12/05 10:51 PM
Quote raphus:

Quote Bill C:

Quote raphus:


Specifically, even though my friend and I never simultaneously possess the book, by borrowing it any time I want to I am enjoying all the benefits of ownership without having paid for it. If loaning books were not socially acceptable, I would have to go out and buy it, and the author would have made more money.

I agree that software piracy is bad, but I don't know how to reconcile that with this book lending issue.




... but the book can only be used in one place at one time - it's like a hardware dongle for a software package. It's the same as lending someone a guitar. If you photocopied the whole book or scanned it, that would be like using "cracked" software ...






Quote Doublehelix:


Borrowing is not copying. Borrowing is using someone else's property and then returning it, not duplicating it, using it, and then destroying your copy.

When I borrow my neighbor's rake, he does not have a rake to use, does he?

If I want to borrow my neighbor's Cubase SX then, I should borrow the entire PC with the software loaded, record my song, and then return the PC. During that time, my neighbor would not be able to use his copy of Cubase because I had it.

Now *that's* borrowing.







Believe it or not, I really do understand that copying the book is different than reading it any time I like. Unfortunately the book analogy is not perfect, because one does not need to copy a book to fully enjoy the benefits of ownership.

My point remains that if book lending were not socially acceptable, authors would make more money. It's as simple as that. I think it's worth considering this contradiction--denying authors their income simply because I want to enjoy book-owning benefits for free is socially acceptable, but denying software developers their income because for the same reason is socially unacceptable. The motives and the end results are the same, but one is OK while the other is illegal and immoral. Am I the only one who thinks it might be informative to consider this?




Hey Raphus...

I think you might be missing my point.

I find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, because it is a physical entity that was bought and paid for at some point, and when you borrow it, you are not copying a physical entity.

With software however, you can make an exact copy, and use that *copy*, so rather than *borrowing* a physical entity, you are making your own version, which in my book is stealing.

As I pointed out however, if you owned a version of Cubase that you installed on a computer, and I borrowed the computer *and* the software for a week while I make a song, I would say I was borrowing a physical entity, and that would be OK. You are unable to use the software while I am making my record.

I do understand that by borrowing your computer, I am denying the software creater more money, but not by making a new version of his creation on my own.

As you mention, this is instantly more socially acceptable.

It is really nothing different than borrowing your car, borrowing your lawn mower, or borrowing your garden rake. It denies the creater money because you are not buying one of your own

So again, my bottom line here:

If you want to "borrow" software, you do not make a copy of that software, but rather you must use the *same* version of that software.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220965 - 06/12/05 01:28 AM
I have a few thoughts on this subject I'd like to share.

Firstly, software 'piracy' (arrrrrrrrr!) is not the same as theft. When you steal something, you deprive the owner of it. This obviously doesn't apply when you copy software. It can be argued (with some justification) that you deprive the copyright owner of some potential earnings, but this still isn't the same thing.

Secondly, I'd like to digress a little into the parallel topic of music piracy. A ridiculous argument I've heard on this subject is that people will stop making music if they aren't going to derive income from it. I'm sure everyone here would agree this simply isn't true - most if not all of us make music because we enjoy it. Yeah, it's great if other people enjoy it too, even better if they show their appreciation financially, but the bottom line is we do it for our own satisfaction.

Obviously making software is a slightly different kettle of fish, however I truly cannot believe that software would cease to be made if there was no money involved. If there's enough demand for a piece of software, then somebody somewhere will make it. Perhaps they too will do this primarily for their own use, but that certainly doesn't stop anyone else from using it. You only have to look to the open source movement and the number of free VST stuff out there to see the truth of this.

Thirdly, I'd like to stray into the realms of fantasy, Captain Mainwaring. Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free. Let's say I then baked a really nice cheese and onion pie. I could end world hunger at a stroke, yet I refused to do so unless each starving child in Africa paid me royalties for the use of copies of my pie. Wouldn't this make me some kind of monster?

Now instead of a pie, imagine I designed a really great pair of shoes. I could give all those poor clichéd African children shoes! Would I be a monster if I refused to do this for free?

Now instead of shoes, imagine I made a really great t-shirt. Or a pair of sunglasses. Or an mp3 player, or a car, or a - ok, we could play this game all night. My point is, there's a grey area here. When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.

I want to finish by pointing out (before I get flamed) that I honestly haven't made my own mind up on this subject yet. In an ideal world I'd like to see *all* software, music, literature etc. available for free, but with the user having the option to donate money according to the value s/he feels s/he has derived from it. Of course we don't live in an ideal world, but I'm still considering this kind of setup for my own (mostly) music website if/when I finally get around to putting it online. Will I make a living from this? Probably not. Will that stop me making music, writing stories, drawing pictures, making the odd bit of software? Definately not!


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #220973 - 06/12/05 01:57 AM

Where's my sled?


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #220977 - 06/12/05 02:01 AM
Quote Chillum:

A ridiculous argument I've heard on this subject is that people will stop making music if they aren't going to derive income from it. I'm sure everyone here would agree this simply isn't true - most if not all of us make music because we enjoy it.



That's fine if it isn't your sole source of income. How do you afford to live if it is?

Quote Chillum:

Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free. Let's say I then baked a really nice cheese and onion pie. I could end world hunger at a stroke, yet I refused to do so unless each starving child in Africa paid me royalties for the use of copies of my pie.



But who would pay for the machine? The ingredients? The shipping?

Quote Chillum:

Now instead of a pie, imagine I designed a really great pair of shoes. I could give all those poor clichéd African children shoes! Would I be a monster if I refused to do this for free?



But who would pay for the leather? The rubber? The shipping?

Quote Chillum:

Now instead of shoes, imagine I made a really great t-shirt. Or a pair of sunglasses. Or an mp3 player, or a car, or a - ok, we could play this game all night.



Again, who would finance the venture? Where would the materials come from? Even if the machine was able to make its own materials, who would buy the initial item to copy?

Quote Chillum:

My point is, there's a grey area here. When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.



If you apply that argument to everything in life then nobody should pay for anything ... electricity, gas, petrol, where do you stop? Anti piracy laws exist to ensure that the individual is paid for his work and can afford to carry on developing.

Quote Chillum:

In an ideal world I'd like to see *all* software, music, literature etc. available for free, but with the user having the option to donate money according to the value s/he feels s/he has derived from it.



Everything has a value. This way of looking at it would totally devalue everything. Who's going to pay £500 when they can pay 50p?

Quote Chillum:

Of course we don't live in an ideal world, but I'm still considering this kind of setup for my own (mostly) music website if/when I finally get around to putting it online. Will I make a living from this? Probably not. Will that stop me making music, writing stories, drawing pictures, making the odd bit of software? Definately not!



If you depended on royalties to pay your mortgage you would have an entirely different outlook I can assure you!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Commander]
      #220990 - 06/12/05 03:45 AM
Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

A ridiculous argument I've heard on this subject is that people will stop making music if they aren't going to derive income from it. I'm sure everyone here would agree this simply isn't true - most if not all of us make music because we enjoy it.



That's fine if it isn't your sole source of income. How do you afford to live if it is?



Then obviously you'd have to find another source of income. I suspect you'd still find the time to make some music, though.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free. Let's say I then baked a really nice cheese and onion pie. I could end world hunger at a stroke, yet I refused to do so unless each starving child in Africa paid me royalties for the use of copies of my pie.



But who would pay for the machine? The ingredients? The shipping?



Here I'm drawing an analogy with software, which can quickly and easily be replicated at no cost in materials etc. My hypothetical machine behaves in the same way.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

Now instead of shoes, imagine I made a really great t-shirt. Or a pair of sunglasses. Or an mp3 player, or a car, or a - ok, we could play this game all night.



Again, who would finance the venture? Where would the materials come from? Even if the machine was able to make its own materials, who would buy the initial item to copy?



The initial item would be created or provided by someone who wanted, for themselves, a pie, pair of shoes, car etc.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

My point is, there's a grey area here. When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.



If you apply that argument to everything in life then nobody should pay for anything ... electricity, gas, petrol, where do you stop? Anti piracy laws exist to ensure that the individual is paid for his work and can afford to carry on developing.



And if it were possible to freely replicate anything, why on earth should anyone pay for anything?

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

In an ideal world I'd like to see *all* software, music, literature etc. available for free, but with the user having the option to donate money according to the value s/he feels s/he has derived from it.



Everything has a value. This way of looking at it would totally devalue everything.



Everything would still have a value, it would just be a value decided by the buyer rather than the seller.

Quote Commander:

Who's going to pay £500 when they can pay 50p?



Someone who feels a moral obligation to pay what they consider a fair price for the (for want of a better phrase) amount of usefulness they've got out of it. Probably, in fact, the same kind of person who currently feels a moral obligation to buy legitimate copies of software rather than using 'pirated' versions.

Quote Commander:

Quote Chillum:

Of course we don't live in an ideal world, but I'm still considering this kind of setup for my own (mostly) music website if/when I finally get around to putting it online. Will I make a living from this? Probably not. Will that stop me making music, writing stories, drawing pictures, making the odd bit of software? Definately not!



If you depended on royalties to pay your mortgage you would have an entirely different outlook I can assure you!



I can't argue with that!


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #220991 - 06/12/05 03:48 AM
Quote Doublehelix:


Hey Raphus...

I think you might be missing my point.

I find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, because it is a physical entity that was bought and paid for at some point, and when you borrow it, you are not copying a physical entity.




You're right, I must be missing your point, because it sounds like you're repeating the same argument despite my having invalidated it. It probably sounds to you like I'm doing the same thing.

I also find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, but I honestly don't know why I feel that way, because it seems contradictory to my feelings on software piracy. I just think that comparing book lending to software pirating might be illuminating.

Quote Doublehelix:


I do understand that by borrowing your computer, I am denying the software creater more money, but not by making a new version of his creation on my own.

As you mention, this is instantly more socially acceptable.




Why?! This is the crux of my argument! Why is it socially acceptable to find non-coping-related ways of depriving creators of potential profits generated by their creations? If that were common practice (which, for obvious practical reasons, it never will be), do you think software developers would be OK with that? I certainly don't.

Quote Doublehelix:


It is really nothing different than borrowing your car, borrowing your lawn mower, or borrowing your garden rake. It denies the creater money because you are not buying one of your own

So again, my bottom line here:

If you want to "borrow" software, you do not make a copy of that software, but rather you must use the *same* version of that software.




It is very different. We don't use the books we read for pleasure in the same way. They sit on our shelves, and we read them once every few years. The borrowing of a garden rake comes closer, but this is not about examining the borrowing characteristics of every possible borrowed item. (If I borrow my neighbor's rake very often, I would just go out and buy one of my own.)

So, I can engage in socially acceptable behavior that affords me all the benefits of ownership and deprives authors of compensation, or I can engage in socially unacceptable behavior that affords me all the benefits of ownership and deprives software developers of compensation. If all the benefits of ownership are conferred in both cases, the fact that one involves a physical copy and one does not is irrelevant. Or, if it is relevant, I have yet to hear a reason why. (A statement that it is does not count as a reason why it is.)

For example, if the computer sharing situation you described were feasible, you and I could theoretically each operate separate recording studios using only one computer. You could be open from noon to midnight, and I could be open midnight to noon. Based on the retail price of Logic Pro, the company that wrote our DAW software would be out about $1,000. Get a significant number of people doing that, then imagine the software industry's response.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #221017 - 06/12/05 08:12 AM
Quote Chillum:

Firstly, software 'piracy' (arrrrrrrrr!) is not the same as theft. When you steal something, you deprive the owner of it. This obviously doesn't apply when you copy software. It can be argued (with some justification) that you deprive the copyright owner of some potential earnings, but this still isn't the same thing.




More rubbish!! Have you ever read the license/terms of usage agreement associated with software?? When you do, for the first time obviously, it will stipulate that under no circumstances is the software allowed to be copied, manipulated in shape or form. So when you crack/copy the software this then breaks the license agreement and becomes theft! Why?, well because the want every copy used to have been purchased beforehand.

Beya


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #221019 - 06/12/05 08:21 AM
Quote Chillum:

Then obviously you'd have to find another source of income. I suspect you'd still find the time to make some music, though.




Let me get this right, you're a musician who makes their living from making/selling music, and your livelyhood is being compromised by people like yourself who think there is no problem with stealing peoples means of looking after themselves, and the response that you are given to your financial plight is to go and find another career path?!

What if music is the only thing you can/want to do what then, and who the f&*k are you to tell anyone that they have to change their career path because you think it's a good idea to steal from them.

Of course i'm wishing that the karma you believe in, rewards you back handsomely.

Beya


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #221035 - 06/12/05 09:40 AM
All these sentimental 'starving children in Africa' arguments are nonsense. I have yet to meet anyone who uses cracked software using it to help the starving poor. My income is from music and when a choreoegrapher asked me if they could use my music for a dance performance by disabled and poor children in Kwa Zululand, both the musician and myself gave a free Cd which could be copied onto Revox as many times as they wanted. Probably every composer on this forum would do the same. The software this was recorded and edited on was bought and legal as it should have been, piracy is wrong.
Why should creative people be deprived of their income. You can not buy a cracked version of a solicitor, dentist, builder, electrician etc.
As for the argument that music would still be made despite income - yes, but to what standard if you can only produce it when you get back from you day job? There are electronica records I buy produced by non-professionals but they are not up to the standard of the real professionals like Richie Hawtins, Monolake etc. These arguments are rationalisation of you criminal activites. I bet you don't wear homemade clothes, get an amateur to cut you hair, go to someone who does dentistry as a hobby.


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221039 - 06/12/05 09:57 AM
Piracy, dont make me laugh. Heres a credential for you. I was once asked by the creative director of a company I was doing some work for to copy a country CD for some visiting American clents who were having their arses painted with corporate lipstick. I refused stating that I wouldnt violate the artists copyright. Guess how much more work i got from him... answers on a postcard...

For starters, I bet just about everyone on this thread has at one time or another, copied a CD or taped an album from a friend or library. I bet many people here have also ripped a CD for use on an mp3 player or computer jukebox.

I bet theres also a number of people who have sat with a track playing across their monitors and then created a pastiche of that exact track for commercial gain. Thus depriving the original artist of income that they would have earned if this practice *wasnt* acceptable.

I bet theres also a number of hobbyist musicians here who [seem to always] work in IT. Who have taken some IT consumables, low cost parts or stationary for their personal use.

I liked the discussion above regarding that great little machine that can create free pies. My alter ego Spock would have surely commented on the fictional 'Replicator' as fitted to new star ships. In the virtual world anything digital can be replicated!

I wonder about the proliferation of Digital radio receivers and the quality of copies available across the airwaves. I also wonder about the DVD/Hard disk recorders now available for under two hundred quid. These nifty devices are able to make high quality copies and burn them straight to DVD.

The whole thing seems to be at odds with itself. With for instance one half of Sony Corp bleating about piracy while the other half is selling piracy tools. And not stealthily either. They are advertised on prime time and prime space.

Its a bit like Yale selling lock picking tools isnt it.

So the old consumer is asked to "do the right thing". And those who do are increasingly mis-understood in our "grab a bargain" society.

The question is how do we stop it. How do we return to the days of a quarter million single sales for a number one? Has anyone got any good ideas about how to stop the piracy of digital data? It would be more interesting than just another post that says "all pirates and thieves are bastards". Even though they are!

I guess the worst part of music piracy is that we have to have another bottle of bloody pop star perfume shoved up our nose!


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #221040 - 06/12/05 09:58 AM
Quote noiseconjecture:

You can not buy a cracked version of a solicitor......




debateable! ;-)


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221045 - 06/12/05 10:01 AM
Quote beyarecords:



More rubbish!! Have you ever read the license/terms of usage agreement associated with software?? When you do, for the first time obviously, it will stipulate that under no circumstances is the software allowed to be copied, manipulated in shape or form. So when you crack/copy the software this then breaks the license agreement and becomes theft! Why?, well because the want every copy used to have been purchased beforehand.

Beya




Interesting thought: Is there any other market where the product is licensed on a non-transferrable basis, or is/are intellectual properties unique in this respect?
I am asking, as it seems like the originators of software invented this method of distribution rather than it being something that grew naturally in the course of commerce, as did most of the other agreed practices currently in use.
It really is a one-sided relationship, where the "buyer" is actually expected to pay in full up front for the product but then only alloweeed to actually dispose of it as though it were a rented or leased service.
Plus of course we are expected to pay top dollar "because there is a limited market" when the sellers are by and large creating the limits by their opressive marketing ploys.

Now do not misunderstand me - I am not condoning "software theft" in any way, but I do feel like we are being taken for a ride by many of the software companies that have a captive market for their product (listening, Bill?)and agree that a lot of the time the pricing structure IS geared to people making money off the product, forgetting that the vast majority of users probably don`t stand to make back the cost of the software ever in their lifetime.

Perhaps what is really needed is a more modest investment requirement at the outset and then a per-unit shipped/profit accrued fee based on sales of finished product on which the software was used?

This is probably impractical, but having just played with a couple of plugins on the free versions shipped with my soundcard, I went and had a look at the upgrade prices and nearly sh*t myself.

I could buy a hardware unit that does the same sort of thing for the price that these greedy baskets want for their plugins.

Now bearing in mind that most if not all hardware effects units these days are DSP based and therefore contain sof(or firm)ware code that actually does the work, why do we still seem to be paying similar prices for software only products as we do for hardware?
The R&D cannot be that different, certainly the development costs SHOULD be less, plus you generally get a PRINTED manual with hardware.
Shipping costs? Don`t get me started.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Spord
member


Joined: 07/07/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Derby/Leamington
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: IvanSC]
      #221056 - 06/12/05 10:19 AM
Quote IvanSC:



Perhaps what is really needed is a more modest investment requirement at the outset and then a per-unit shipped/profit accrued fee based on sales of finished product on which the software was used?






I think this is the best approach - I mentioned something similar earlier in the thread. Like a royalty system. It would require the user to declare all uses of the software, so is open to abuse, but it would be a fairer pricing scheme.

--------------------
Yes, good, very good, but everything LOUDER!


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: __]
      #221061 - 06/12/05 10:25 AM
Quote ow:


The question is how do we stop it. How do we return to the days of a quarter million single sales for a number one? Has anyone got any good ideas about how to stop the piracy of digital data?



I suggested above a system that software can only open when you have swiped you credit card through a card reader attached to a USB port. My reasoning being that very few people would risk giving away copies of a credit card and illegal copies would be dealt with harshly by the current legal system. Are there any real problems with this system?


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Simon (aka UK03878)



Joined: 02/11/05
Posts: 1504
Loc: Munching a Carrot, The Fens
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221068 - 06/12/05 10:32 AM
And when we finally get around to any idea I have had for years then we can all get along like a house on fire
Get rid of PCs, get dumb-ish terminals, Use a specialised Music Software Host, rent software via the old mainframe pricing concept of timesharew on line, store data on line
Piracy issues disappear, software licenses intact, your data is backed up, you can choose to use different software versions or products
Same idea as we do for business users with products like Citrix
We can also start to think alonf the lines of 3 tier architectures to spread the distribution load
The software can then be written in different OS's using the best OS and language for the job and not dependant on Windows and the overhead caused by that
And then we can get back to making music and not trying to be second rate PC technicians

Edited by Simon (aka UK03878) (06/12/05 10:38 AM)


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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: IvanSC]
      #221090 - 06/12/05 11:26 AM
Quote IvanSC:

Is there any other market where the product is licensed on a non-transferrable basis.





How about a musician playing a gig? - he won't be pleased if a member of the audience records the gig and sells the resulting recording to others without paying the muso.

Quote IvanSC:


It really is a one-sided relationship, where the "buyer" is actually expected to pay in full up front for the product




... say a musician's going rate is £200 for a gig - he won't be pleased if the promoter says I'll pay you on a sliding scale starting at £30 depending on what we take on the bar.

Quote IvanSC:

I could buy a hardware unit that does the same sort of thing for the price that these greedy baskets want for their plugins.




... true, but in some situations software is preferable - recall of settings, space saved etc


Abou the thread in general ...

I think the problem here is that "professional" versions of software are not expensive for genuine *money-making* professional use. It is pricey if you aren't making money from its use, but frankly if you aren't earning your living via the software you almost certainly don't need it - a cut down "lite" version will almost certainly suffice, albeit with less cachet ...

The idea that professional tools will help one to become professional is nonsense, people with real talent shine through regardless of the tools they are using. Unfortunately, this old "unleash your creativity" chestnut is a potent marketing tool ...


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Neil C
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 2616
Loc: Under a PlopEgg
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221093 - 06/12/05 11:33 AM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote Chillum:

Firstly, software 'piracy' (arrrrrrrrr!) is not the same as theft. When you steal something, you deprive the owner of it. This obviously doesn't apply when you copy software. It can be argued (with some justification) that you deprive the copyright owner of some potential earnings, but this still isn't the same thing.




More rubbish!! Have you ever read the license/terms of usage agreement associated with software?? When you do, for the first time obviously, it will stipulate that under no circumstances is the software allowed to be copied, manipulated in shape or form. So when you crack/copy the software this then breaks the license agreement and becomes theft! Why?, well because the want every copy used to have been purchased beforehand.

Beya




Lets just get this perfectly clear. In terms of the law (UK law at least) cracking/copying software IS NOT THEFT. Theft has to involve the intent to permanently deprive (of the thing taken). Copying software in no way deprives the copyright holder of the original software. It is, of course, illegal though.
Whether you think that copying software is in moral terms theft, is another matter.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Neil C]
      #221099 - 06/12/05 11:40 AM
Quote Neil C:

Lets just get this perfectly clear. In terms of the law (UK law at least) copying software IS NOT THEFT. Theft has to involve the intent to permanently deprive. Copying software in no way deprives the copyright holder of the original software.




Let me get this right, each time someone receives an illegal copy/crack of a piece of software/music and it is not paid for, you'rre trying to tell me that this not depriving the originator of the material?

So individuals, and peer-to-peer companies which give access to downloading copied/cracked software are being taken to court and sued just for the fun of it right, and because copying software IS NOT THEFT?

You need to stop talking nonsense my friend.

Beya


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Simon (aka UK03878)



Joined: 02/11/05
Posts: 1504
Loc: Munching a Carrot, The Fens
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221100 - 06/12/05 11:41 AM
It may not be the legal definition of theft but it is this
In the case of computer programs and other electronic information the relevant law is contained in regulations made pursuant to an EC Directive (91/250/EEC) - the Copyright (Computer Programs) Regulations 1992. These came into effect on 1 January 1993. The overall impact of the regulations is to render computer programs akin to literary works for copyright purposes. The Regulations were not the first protection afforded to software copyright - they were preceded by the Copyright(Computer Software) Amendment Act 1985(the '85 Act)

The overall effect of the current law is to make it illegal to duplicate programs except where permitted - for example in the case of back-up copies.

The penalties for copyright breaches can be severe - in the Magistrates court the offences carry up to 6 months imprisonment and/or a fine of up to £5000 and in the Crown Court (the higher tier of criminal courts) up to two years imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine.

The courts also have the power to order the forfeiture of equipment used in association with the criminal offence - which, arguably, could include associated hardware. The '88 Act also permits the seizure of property at the commencement of an investigation.

The owner of the copyright may additionally sue for breach of copyright in the civil courts with a view to obtaining damages.



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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #221101 - 06/12/05 11:41 AM
Quote Chillum:

In an ideal world I'd like to see *all* software, music, literature etc. available for free, but with the user having the option to donate money according to the value s/he feels s/he has derived from it.




What do you do for a living...? Would you like your weekly income decided on a shareware basis?

Some musicians/software engineers etc want to be paid for their efforts. That is the offer they are making to potential users. If you disagree that doesn't entitle you to take their stuff! If you don't like the offer, shop elsewhere!

The idea that all "art" should be free devalues the creative arts imo - by all means give away hobbyist efforts, but the genuinely good stuff deserves to be paid for, if nothing else so that the artist can continue to focus on their creative work - for the good of us all ...


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #221103 - 06/12/05 11:47 AM
Quote noiseconjecture:

Quote ow:


The question is how do we stop it. How do we return to the days of a quarter million single sales for a number one? Has anyone got any good ideas about how to stop the piracy of digital data?



I suggested above a system that software can only open when you have swiped you credit card through a card reader attached to a USB port. My reasoning being that very few people would risk giving away copies of a credit card and illegal copies would be dealt with harshly by the current legal system. Are there any real problems with this system?




I just think that the crackers, who are already sophisticated enough to beat usb dongle protection would be able to beat this system. It would stop you from making a copy for your friend. But it wouldnt stop the industrial scale piracy.


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Neil C
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221104 - 06/12/05 11:49 AM
I'm certainly not talking nonsense.

I am stating a plain, absolute fact.

If you want to do the research you can verify it.

As to the point of derpivation - example. Person 1 has a piece of software that they wish to market. Person 1 sells it to customer 2. Customer 2 illegally passes it on, the software goes through numerous hands, maybe gets changed and recoded, whatever. If person 1 has kept their copy of the software, no matter what happens to it after they have sold a copy, person 1's orginal version remains with him, unaltered. This is basic physiscs.

As Simon has shown, the offence that has taken place is a copyright infringement, NOT THEFT.
Its a perfectly legitimate point of view to morally consider it as theft, but in terms of the law it is not.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Neil C]
      #221108 - 06/12/05 11:54 AM
Quote Neil C:

I'm certainly not talking nonsense.

I am stating a plain, absolute fact.

If you want to do the research you can verify it.




I'm going to ask you a very simple question, are companies/indiviuals being taken to court for downloading/distributing cracked/copied software, Yes or No?? And are they being being sued because it's illegal to download/copy cracked/copied software or because they've got a bit of free time on their hands to mess around with??

Take you time!!

Beya


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steveman



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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Chillum]
      #221109 - 06/12/05 11:54 AM
Quote:

Obviously making software is a slightly different kettle of fish, however I truly cannot believe that software would cease to be made if there was no money involved. If there's enough demand for a piece of software, then somebody somewhere will make it. Perhaps they too will do this primarily for their own use, but that certainly doesn't stop anyone else from using it. You only have to look to the open source movement and the number of free VST stuff out there to see the truth of this.



The open source movement would & could not exist without the current software industry. How do open source software developers earn a living? - mostly as PAID software developers. Without the current industry they'd have had no training in programming as colleges wouldn't have trained them if there'd been no industry to train them for in the 1st place. With no money coming into the industry it will stagnate - who'd choose to work in an industry that expects you to work for nothing? With no new people coming in, there'll be less innovation. This is the way all industries works - attract new blood and get fresh ideas.

Quote:

Thirdly, I'd like to stray into the realms of fantasy, Captain Mainwaring. Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free. Let's say I then baked a really nice cheese and onion pie. I could end world hunger at a stroke, yet I refused to do so unless each starving child in Africa paid me royalties for the use of copies of my pie. Wouldn't this make me some kind of monster?

Now instead of shoes, imagine I made a really great t-shirt. Or a pair of sunglasses. Or an mp3 player, or a car, or a -ok, we could play this game all night ....

Now instead of a pie, imagine I designed a really great pair of shoes. I could give all those poor clichéd African children shoes! Would I be a monster if I refused to do this for free?




Nice utopian fantasy you live in ...

By making the stuff for free, you immediately would put pie makers and shoemakers etc. out of business, that's basic economics. This would throw millions of people out of work, and while they'd not be short of shoes or cheese and onion pies they wouldn't have any way of buying a roof over their heads etc.

Quote:

When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.



The justification is that people should be rewarded for their work, altruism is all very well but people do need to live. Why is it that software developers and musicians and other creatives are expected to work for free?

Quote:

Everything would still have a value, it would just be a value decided by the buyer rather than the seller.



That's what happens now - it's called the law of supply and demand . If a product is priced too highly it doesn't sell.

It has broken down to extent in certain industries - software being one of them. Why? Due to a lack of competition. If you want a high-end photo editor, you have 1 choice - Photoshop. It's virtually impossible for anyone else to enter that market now, this at least in part due to piracy. If I create a competitor and sell it for (say) £100, what's a poor student to do? Spend £100 on the new (possibly better) software or get a 'free' copy of the 'industry standard'. Most people seem to regard the latter as their best option.

Quote:



Quote Commander:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who's going to pay £500 when they can pay 50p?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone who feels a moral obligation to pay what they consider a fair price for the (for want of a better phrase) amount of usefulness they've got out of it. Probably, in fact, the same kind of person who currently feels a moral obligation to buy legitimate copies of software rather than using 'pirated' versions.




Based on what I see here and elsewhere I reckon that'd reduce their income by about 90% ...


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221110 - 06/12/05 11:57 AM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote Neil C:

I'm certainly not talking nonsense.

I am stating a plain, absolute fact.

If you want to do the research you can verify it.




I'm going to ask you a very simple question, are companies/indiviuals being taken to court for downloading/distributing cracked/copied software, Yes or No?? And are they being being sued because it's illegal to download/copy cracked/copied software or because they've got a bit of free time on their hands to mess around with??

Take you time!!

Beya



NeilC isnt saying its not illegal. Hes saying its not theft by the legal def. And he is right.


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221147 - 06/12/05 12:46 PM
There's a lot of noramlly sensible people coming out with some absolute waffle in this thread.

Quote beyarecords:



Let me get this right, each time someone receives an illegal copy/crack of a piece of software/music and it is not paid for, you'rre trying to tell me that this not depriving the originator of the material?




How can you deprive the originator of the material if they created the material in the first place? Or do you, by 'originator', mean someone other than the party with whom the copyrighted work in question originated? If so, please be more specific.

Quote beyarecords:

So individuals, and peer-to-peer companies which give access to downloading copied/cracked software are being taken to court and sued just for the fun of it right, and because copying software IS NOT THEFT?




Yes thats right, they are getting sued because it's not theft, its a copyright violation: and copyright violation is dealt with under civil law, whereas theft is a criminal offence and as such is dealt with under criminal law. People get prosecuted for theft, and sued for copyright violation. Your foam mouthed sarcasm has inadvertently led you up the right path, well done.


Quote beyarecords:

You need to stop talking nonsense my friend.




You need to think about what you are posting before you post it, my friend.

Quote Doublehelix:

I find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, because it is a physical entity that was bought and paid for at some point, and when you borrow it, you are not copying a physical entity.

With software however, you can make an exact copy, and use that *copy*, so rather than *borrowing* a physical entity, you are making your own version, which in my book is stealing.

As I pointed out however, if you owned a version of Cubase that you installed on a computer, and I borrowed the computer *and* the software for a week while I make a song, I would say I was borrowing a physical entity, and that would be OK. You are unable to use the software while I am making my record....

So again, my bottom line here:

If you want to "borrow" software, you do not make a copy of that software, but rather you must use the *same* version of that software.




DH, please, take some time to reread this post and consider the logic behind it. I accept that in legal terms, borrowing a copyrighted work is not the same as making a copy of it - but this argument is framed in moral terms, and from a moral point of view what possible difference can it make to the originator of the work whether you deprive the legitimate license holder of the right to enjoy the work during your period of use? The bottom line, to my eyes, is that they are still being deprived of income. i'm sure the commander and his mortgage adviser would agree. This kind of micro hairsplitting might salve your conscience but it's not doing anything for this debate, apart from muddying the waters still further.

Can I also take this opprtunity to to knock the 'stealing a ferrari, or other desirable car/luxury item' argument on the head. This is not a discussion about ownership. We've already established that no one owns their software, however they acquired it - instead, the copyright holder grants a license to use the software on payment of a flat fee, regardless of how many times the software is used.

This is not analogous to buying a car - instead, it's like trying to rent a car and being told that the cost is a flat fee of £16K regardless of whether you need it for 5 years or for a weekend. As everyone will appreciate, that would be a crazy way to run a car rental business.

As i said in my post on page 1 of this thread, I dont think it's any different for software. If all I'm buying is the right to use a piece of software then the charge levied should be proportional to how much i use it, just as it is for practically every other service on earth. Every business in every sector, if they want to succeed, has to come up with a pricing structure that is acceptable to their customer base. Music software manufacturers havent yet been able to do this and they are suffering as a result. I accept that some of that is due to technological problems beyond their control.

But then again... how interested are software manufacturers in really protecting themselves against software piracy? They make a lot of noise about it, but how much actual innovation do we see in the market?

For example, cubase SX and wavelab are premium products, aimed ostensibly at professional users. Steinberg is a big company with a great deal of clout in the market. You cant use their software without some form of hardware, typically a soundcard.

So, if i were the CEO of Steinberg and my top priority was to stop piracy of my products, i would cut a deal with a respected mid-sized soundcard developer - say Echo or RME - to embed my software in their hardware and sell it as a package. That would cut piracy at a stroke, and result in much faster and less buggy software. The package would be more expensive than the software alone but not drastically so, once economies of scale and increased sales to people who would previosly have used pirated software were taken into account - say in the order of 30-50% more. That kind of cost increase wouldnt be enough to deter professional users, and as has been noted above, there are lots of great cheap or free software around with more than enough functionality for non-pro users.

So why doesnt it happen? BECAUSE IT WOULD HAMMER STEINBERG'S MARKET SHARE!!!!! I really cant stress this point enough. If the big software developers had a means of stopping piracy without damaging thier market share of course they would take it - but if doing so means all those millions of students, hobbyists and casual users switched to someone else's software, then they are not interested. This is not about morality, stealing or starving children. This is about big business, market penetration and corperate positioning.

This is a very complex issue and people really arent doing it any justice by carrying on the way they are in this thread. If musicians are going to be able to lobby successfully to get better tools and better support for the jobs they do, they need to start looking at the software market in a much more realistic light.


Raphus, IvanSC, simon (aka UK03818) - Thank you. Some at least are talking sense.

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Simon (aka UK03878)



Joined: 02/11/05
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221153 - 06/12/05 12:51 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

So, if i were the CEO of Steinberg and my top priority was to stop piracy of my products, i would cut a deal with a respected mid-sized soundcard developer - say Echo or RME - to embed my software in their hardware and sell it as a package. That would cut piracy at a stroke, and result in much faster and less buggy software.



True
Not many pirated versions of Pro Tools HD out there are there?
Still think that copyright thing is a criminal offence though (you get sent to prison!)


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Bob Bickerton
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221168 - 06/12/05 01:09 PM
Uncomfortable as I am in siding with the late Dr Fister my thoughts on this epic thread are rather simple.

If I choose to use pirated software I am robbing, not the software companies, but my fellow musicians and engineers!

If 50% of music software being used is pirated then surely, for those who are paying, the price is (approximately) double what it needs to be.

Users of pirated software are effectively being sponsored by people who pay for the software, not by the companies who sell it. If no one bought it, the software would not exist!

Bob

Edited by Bob Bickerton (06/12/05 01:11 PM)


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221173 - 06/12/05 01:12 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

How can you deprive the originator of the material if they created the material in the first place? Or do you, by 'originator', mean someone other than the party with whom the copyrighted work in question originated? If so, please be more specific.




What is it you can't grasp here? Software manufacturer A develops product B for sale. Person C purchases product B, makes a copy/crack of prouct B and distributes it on the net. 1,000 downloads of cracked/copied product B are made every week. Manufacturer A has sold 1 copy of their software but have been denied a potential 1,000 sales. Copyright law determines who the rightfull owner of a product is, and if it is stipulated in their licensing agreement with third parties, you and me, that their software is only for sale and is not to be distributed/copied to other parties and is, then this is THEFT!

Simple!!

Beya


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221174 - 06/12/05 01:14 PM
Alright here's a suggestion. The people who are most against cracked software seem to be professional musicians, studio people, software/sample developers. Maybe we should ask people before we work with them that they have to swear an oath saying no cracked software was used in the production of their music. Also if they are using computers live the same thing. Those that own record companies could do the same thing. I have never worked out why people who break the law are admired. They are not couragious opposition polititans in a violent police state, they are petty criminals who believe they have a right to what they want for nothing, knowing usually there are enough people paying to carry these parasitic freeloaders.


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Sarge



Joined: 06/06/04
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #221177 - 06/12/05 01:17 PM
Quote Bill C:



The idea that professional tools will help one to become professional is nonsense, people with real talent shine through regardless of the tools they are using. Unfortunately, this old "unleash your creativity" chestnut is a potent marketing tool ...




So very true.
With regards to Photoshop example a cut version Photoshop Elements is not so cut down infunctionality except in price. Logic Express and Final Cut Express aren't too shabby either.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #221182 - 06/12/05 01:24 PM
Quote Bill C:


The idea that all "art" should be free devalues the creative arts imo - by all means give away hobbyist efforts, but the genuinely good stuff deserves to be paid for, if nothing else so that the artist can continue to focus on their creative work - for the good of us all ...



This is the single most sensible post in this thread. Well said sir!

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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: ]
      #221194 - 06/12/05 01:34 PM
Quote Simon (aka UK03878):

Quote Martin: the return...:

So, if i were the CEO of Steinberg and my top priority was to stop piracy of my products, i would cut a deal with a respected mid-sized soundcard developer - say Echo or RME - to embed my software in their hardware and sell it as a package. That would cut piracy at a stroke, and result in much faster and less buggy software.



True
Not many pirated versions of Pro Tools HD out there are there?
Still think that copyright thing is a criminal offence though (you get sent to prison!)




This is actually a topical point. Had i written my last post 6 weeks ago, I would have been entirely correct. However, on October 31st this year parliament implemented the EU Copyright Directive in UK law, and this does, in theory, make it a criminal offence to violate copyright.

However it needs to be pointed out that no-one has been prosecuted under this legislation yet, and it's unlikely in the extreme that anyone would get jailed under it for domestic copying - the DTI stated explicitly that the legeslation was aimed at commercial pirates and individual users wouldnt be targeted.

Sidney Austin and Dino Simm were jailed this time last year for running a DVD piracy ring, but obviously that was before this legeslation came into force. Details on what they were actually convicted of are a bit obscure, but it seems to have been for possessing fake DVDs as opposed to the act of copying them - i think this is trading standards legislation but i dont know. In any case, one of them had a quantity of cocaine on him and you can definately get banged up for that!

In any case my original point stands because this new law hasnt been used, and to the best of my knowledge all copyright cases that have to date been brought against individuals (and the vast majority brought against commercial entities, eg napster, this years grokster ruling) have been brought under civil law. In any case beya's post refered to individuals getting sued which can only happen under civil law.

And with reference to the original point: if copyright violation was legally the same as theft, why would we need new legislation to make it a criminal offence?

Thanks for prompting me to clarify though.

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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Commander]
      #221201 - 06/12/05 01:37 PM
You, I, anyone has the right to produce a product for which they wish to be paid for. If you wish to use this product, then buy it. Otherwise you always have the option of spending your own time and effort developing a piece of software that you won't have to pay anyone else for!

Beya


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221202 - 06/12/05 01:37 PM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote Martin: the return...:

How can you deprive the originator of the material if they created the material in the first place? Or do you, by 'originator', mean someone other than the party with whom the copyrighted work in question originated? If so, please be more specific.




What is it you can't grasp here? Software manufacturer A develops product B for sale. Person C purchases product B, makes a copy/crack of prouct B and distributes it on the net. 1,000 downloads of cracked/copied product B are made every week. Manufacturer A has sold 1 copy of their software but have been denied a potential 1,000 sales. Copyright law determines who the rightfull owner of a product is, and if it is stipulated in their licensing agreement with third parties, you and me, that their software is only for sale and is not to be distributed/copied to other parties and is, then this is THEFT!

Simple!!

Beya




We've established beyond all doubt that copyright violation is not legally the same thing as theft. If your personal opinion is that it is morally the same thing as theft, then thats a seperate issue.

In the meantime, try answering the question.

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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Commander]
      #221204 - 06/12/05 01:46 PM
Quote Commander:

Quote Bill C:


The idea that all "art" should be free devalues the creative arts imo - by all means give away hobbyist efforts, but the genuinely good stuff deserves to be paid for, if nothing else so that the artist can continue to focus on their creative work - for the good of us all ...



This is the single most sensible post in this thread. Well said sir!




Loth as i am to disagree with a colossus of naval warfare, I'm very uneasy with this. If you follow that logic of that statement through, you are saying that artists can be judged on how good they are purely by how rich they are, and we all know thats bollox.

So many artists have been screwed over down the years because they thought that they would automatically get paid because they were good at what they did. Artists generally need to focus a little less on thier creative work and a little more on their businesses.

In any case, I dont see how this is relevent to the debate about software, although i appreciate the original quote is out of context.

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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221207 - 06/12/05 01:48 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

We've established beyond all doubt that copyright violation is not legally the same thing as theft. If your personal opinion is that it is morally the same thing as theft, then thats a seperate issue.

In the meantime, try answering the question.




THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT.

Beya


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221215 - 06/12/05 01:58 PM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote Martin: the return...:

We've established beyond all doubt that copyright violation is not legally the same thing as theft. If your personal opinion is that it is morally the same thing as theft, then thats a seperate issue.

In the meantime, try answering the question.




THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT.

Beya




Well no, actually I can use pretty much any software i like without paying a bean for it, should i choose to. Surely thats what this thread is all about?

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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221218 - 06/12/05 02:05 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

Well no, actually I can use pretty much any software i like without paying a bean for it, should i choose to. Surely thats what this thread is all about?




Wrong again! The thread was about piracy of software, and in that vain and as I said before:

THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT.

Beya


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221227 - 06/12/05 02:16 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

Quote Commander:

Quote Bill C:


The idea that all "art" should be free devalues the creative arts imo - by all means give away hobbyist efforts, but the genuinely good stuff deserves to be paid for, if nothing else so that the artist can continue to focus on their creative work - for the good of us all ...



This is the single most sensible post in this thread. Well said sir!




Loth as i am to disagree with a colossus of naval warfare, I'm very uneasy with this.



Substitute the word 'art' for software, food, clothes, anything you can think of in fact, and you will see what I mean.

I love the word 'loth' by the way ...

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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221228 - 06/12/05 02:19 PM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote Martin: the return...:

Well no, actually I can use pretty much any software i like without paying a bean for it, should i choose to. Surely thats what this thread is all about?




Wrong again! The thread was about piracy of software




Allow me to join the dots for you. What is pirated software? it's software used by people who havent paid for the priviledge to use it. Although it's a contractual right under law, not a priviledge - yet more sloppy language.

Quote beyarecords:

and in that vain and as I said before:

THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT.

Beya




Do you really think that re-stating your argument again makes it any more comprehendable or correct? I'll say it again (using the by now traditional caps key):

THAT STATEMENT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT. iF IT WASNT, THERE WOULDNT BE ANY PIRACY, AND WE WOULDNT BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.

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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221231 - 06/12/05 02:28 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

THAT STATEMENT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT. iF IT WASNT, THERE WOULDNT BE ANY PIRACY, AND WE WOULDNT BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.




Wrong again!! The fact that the software is 'not your priviledge to use unless you paid for it' does not mean that there are not those amongst us, professioanl joy-riders that they are, who will not use it regardless.

Beya


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Pat
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221236 - 06/12/05 02:34 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:



This is not analogous to buying a car - instead, it's like trying to rent a car and being told that the cost is a flat fee of £16K regardless of whether you need it for 5 years or for a weekend. As everyone will appreciate, that would be a crazy way to run a car rental business.

As i said in my post on page 1 of this thread, I dont think it's any different for software. If all I'm buying is the right to use a piece of software then the charge levied should be proportional to how much i use it, just as it is for practically every other service on earth. Every business in every sector, if they want to succeed, has to come up with a pricing structure that is acceptable to their customer base. Music software manufacturers havent yet been able to do this and they are suffering as a result. I accept that some of that is due to technological problems beyond their control.

But then again... how interested are software manufacturers in really protecting themselves against software piracy? They make a lot of noise about it, but how much actual innovation do we see in the market?

For example, cubase SX and wavelab are premium products, aimed ostensibly at professional users. Steinberg is a big company with a great deal of clout in the market. You cant use their software without some form of hardware, typically a soundcard.

So, if i were the CEO of Steinberg and my top priority was to stop piracy of my products, i would cut a deal with a respected mid-sized soundcard developer - say Echo or RME - to embed my software in their hardware and sell it as a package. That would cut piracy at a stroke, and result in much faster and less buggy software. The package would be more expensive than the software alone but not drastically so, once economies of scale and increased sales to people who would previosly have used pirated software were taken into account - say in the order of 30-50% more. That kind of cost increase wouldnt be enough to deter professional users, and as has been noted above, there are lots of great cheap or free software around with more than enough functionality for non-pro users.

So why doesnt it happen? BECAUSE IT WOULD HAMMER STEINBERG'S MARKET SHARE!!!!! I really cant stress this point enough. If the big software developers had a means of stopping piracy without damaging thier market share of course they would take it - but if doing so means all those millions of students, hobbyists and casual users switched to someone else's software, then they are not interested. This is not about morality, stealing or starving children. This is about big business, market penetration and corperate positioning.

This is a very complex issue and people really arent doing it any justice by carrying on the way they are in this thread. If musicians are going to be able to lobby successfully to get better tools and better support for the jobs they do, they need to start looking at the software market in a much more realistic light.
/quote]


If your car rental provider want to charge you that much for renting a car, you would go elsewhere!


If you think £300 is too much to pay for cubase sx then try Music Studio from magix its only £50! (still no SOS review? Maybe reviewing this would give some more acceptability to this P.O.V to our descerning yet financially retiscent freinds...)


But of course we couldn't do this "'cos magix aint cubase innit...bizarrely what we covet most is the "rip off" products made by the "corporate whores" we so despise..."

Cusbase is only what £300 - this does not make it a premuim product... Sure its not dirt cheap but compare it to the price of say a Manley EQ or a RADAR system (or for that matter nuendo) Those products are expensive, not only because of the high quality engineering, but also because there is a limited market - If we take the line that only pro's would buy it then steinburg would never make any cash - How many "audio pros" are out there - Not as many as there used to be (because of the rise of home recording).

Observant readers will notice the words "when I go to university next year" etc contained in many of the posts that whinge about how software is overpriced... Recording music does not in fact have to be an expensive hobby, but if you have bought in to the marketing mans hype that you need certain equipment so that your girlfriend or whover thinks the song you wrote about her sounds "pro" then I suggest you stop wasting time on internet forums & get yourselves a paper round...

Cheers



Pat


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: beyarecords new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221245 - 06/12/05 02:57 PM
Phew, lots of interesting replies here. Where to start..

Quote beyarecords:

Quote Chillum:

Then obviously you'd have to find another source of income. I suspect you'd still find the time to make some music, though.




Let me get this right, you're a musician who makes their living from making/selling music, and your livelyhood is being compromised by people like yourself who think there is no problem with stealing peoples means of looking after themselves, and the response that you are given to your financial plight is to go and find another career path?!



My response was simply meant as a practical answer - if you can't make a living one way, you need to find another way to make a living, or die.

Quote beyarecords:

What if music is the only thing you can/want to do what then, and who the f&*k are you to tell anyone that they have to change their career path because you think it's a good idea to steal from them.



Excuse me. Nowhere have said that I think it's a good idea to steal from anybody. Attack the arguments please, not the person that presented them.

Quote beyarecords:

Of course i'm wishing that the karma you believe in, rewards you back handsomely.



What makes you think you know what I believe in?


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: beyarecords new [Re: Chillum]
      #221249 - 06/12/05 03:01 PM
Quote Chillum:

What makes you think you know what I believe in?




I'm basing my replys on comments you made, or is it normal behaviour for you to defend opinions that you yourself don't believe in?!

Beya


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: noiseconjecture new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #221252 - 06/12/05 03:16 PM
Quote noiseconjecture:

All these sentimental 'starving children in Africa' arguments are nonsense. I have yet to meet anyone who uses cracked software using it to help the starving poor.



The intention of my 'starving African children' allegory was to try and make people see that, just perhaps, the moral issues here aren't quite as clear-cut as they may seem. I'd be a monster if I deprived them of food, probably not a monster if I deprived them of widescreen TVs, somewhere between the two there's a moral grey area, which intrigues me.

Quote noiseconjecture:

As for the argument that music would still be made despite income - yes, but to what standard if you can only produce it when you get back from you day job? There are electronica records I buy produced by non-professionals but they are not up to the standard of the real professionals like Richie Hawtins, Monolake etc.



I see a chicken-and-egg situation here. Are they better musicians because they're professionals, or are they professionals because they're better musicians?

Quote noisconjecture:

These arguments are rationalisation of you criminal activites. I bet you don't wear homemade clothes, get an amateur to cut you hair, go to someone who does dentistry as a hobby.



How dare you accuse me of criminal activities!

I'm not here to try and convince people that 'piracy' isn't wrong. I'm here because this is a subject which interests and concerns me, and I'd like to hear what people have to say about it. Hopefully this'll also help me clarify my own views on the issue.


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Arse Bandit



Joined: 17/09/01
Posts: 2795
Re: beyarecords new [Re: Chillum]
      #221254 - 06/12/05 03:18 PM
fer fecks sake everyone, stop and take a step back. Surely you've all been involved in this same argument before? Don't you remember what always happens? You wake up one mornign and realise you're older and time has passed you by. I'm a little teapot. Blurp.


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nmkDom



Joined: 16/02/05
Posts: 106
Loc: The Toon
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221258 - 06/12/05 03:25 PM
My right to use an illegal copy? Are you serious? I paid eleven hundred pounds for Nuendo. It crashes periodically with a dongle error BOTH ON MY PC AND MY MAC.

What a load of rubbish? Look pal if yours works then good luck to you, Mine does not work reliably, and in a studio situation that is INTOLERABLE.

Now get real.

--------------------
No More Kisses


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: nmkDom]
      #221260 - 06/12/05 03:30 PM
Quote nmkDom:

It crashes periodically with a dongle error BOTH ON MY PC AND MY MAC.




Well if you're using the same dongle on both the PC and Mac then we can deduce from that that there is something wrong with the donglr and not the software itself! I take it you exhausted all communication with Steinberg in regards to obtaining a replacement dongle before you decided to joy-ride!?!


Beya


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nmkDom



Joined: 16/02/05
Posts: 106
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221279 - 06/12/05 03:57 PM

Yes Beya I did try very hard to contact Steinberg, problem is they aren't Steinberg any more, and do not answer e-mails or queries. I installed Nuendo 3, Live 4, and Reason 3 on a brand new PC, and on a brand new Apple Mac notebook.

No problems at all with Live and Reason.

The problem is sporadic, it can go ages without crashing, or it can crash after it has verified all the VST stuff on startup.

It's too bad if the dongle is faulty, I haven't got time to figure it out. But I have suffered because Nuendo's copy protection system has interfered with my use of an expensive and legitimate product.

Nuendo is too good to ditch on a point of principle, and I've tried ProTools and didn't think it held a candle to Nuendo.

So what's my choice?

A pirate copy (I hate the thought of it!) lets me use a program I paid for and can't use. I still can't use it on my Apple because I don't have an OSX pirate version.

With every update of Nuendo I have to bite my lip, because I cant use it.

The only point I was making is that there IS at least one case where the use of a cracked version, however unpalatable, is at least partly justified.



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No More Kisses


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: nmkDom]
      #221295 - 06/12/05 04:11 PM
Quote nmkDom:


Yes Beya I did try very hard to contact Steinberg, problem is they aren't Steinberg any more, and do not answer e-mails or queries.




Then I suggest you take yourself to th nuendo forum, www.nuendo.com, go to the User section and send a PM to Fredo. All the Nuendo staff can be contacted directly from the site.

Beya


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: noiseconjecture new [Re: Chillum]
      #221319 - 06/12/05 04:45 PM
Quote Chillum:



Quote noisconjecture:

These arguments are rationalisation of you criminal activites. I bet you don't wear homemade clothes, get an amateur to cut you hair, go to someone who does dentistry as a hobby.



How dare you accuse me of criminal activities!

I'm not here to try and convince people that 'piracy' isn't wrong. I'm here because this is a subject which interests and concerns me, and I'd like to hear what people have to say about it. Hopefully this'll also help me clarify my own views on the issue.




I withdraw that accusation and apologise for any offence or upset caused and change it to the pro piracy arguments are people using rationalisation to justify criminal activites (except for the poor person using Nuendo, although I feel sure he could get it sorted out). I misunderstood that you were exploring the issues involved, and I do read things very carefully aswell.

Quote Chillum:


Are they better musicians because they're professionals, or are they professionals because they're better musicians?



This is something I've thought about and I think good musicians can use basic equipment and produce great music. Apparently Hendrix's first records were made on a really cheap guitar. For the way I work now I need a good computer, the rest is not expensive. I could use the basic versions of DAWs as suggested before. The main reason I bought the full version of Logic was because of Space Designer and one editing facility which I don't use as it turned out. I think it was a mistake. I personally would love to downgrade to Logic Express, or get a cross grade to DP, or better still Sonar on a Mac.
So, I could still make the music I want on inexpensive software. It is beyond me why amateurs or people at school want the same stuff as professionals (which I am). This to me is the Thatcher *me* attitude reinforced by Blair. What I want I take.
Heres a story. In the community dance world this administrator drove the fees for dance teachers right down, the hours worked were far greater than the contract. She was very influential in various community dance organisations such as the regional arts board. Her daughter of course grew up and studied dance and wanted to work in the community dance world. She couldn't because the rates weren't high enough to earn a living as her mother was instrumental in driving them down.
If this whole software piracy/ illegal copying is not sorted out the only music will be amateur and marketing concoctions. The rest of us will be saving up to buy a DAW at £4000, or else have to take our computer in where the software manufacturers reformat it with rootkits, palm print security etc.


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Simon (aka UK03878)



Joined: 02/11/05
Posts: 1504
Loc: Munching a Carrot, The Fens
Re: noiseconjecture new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #221329 - 06/12/05 04:58 PM
Quote noiseconjecture:


This is something I've thought about and I think good musicians can use basic equipment and produce great music. Apparently Hendrix's first records were made on a really cheap guitar.



The Curtis Knight records when he was rhythm player ?
However for the Experience Records - a Strat (which back then was a lot of money)
My old man saved and saved and saved for months to buy a Fender Precision which was the same price - 2 months wages I think he said...


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: steveman new [Re: steveman]
      #221337 - 06/12/05 05:05 PM
Quote steveman:

The open source movement would & could not exist without the current software industry. How do open source software developers earn a living? - mostly as PAID software developers. Without the current industry they'd have had no training in programming as colleges wouldn't have trained them if there'd been no industry to train them for in the 1st place. With no money coming into the industry it will stagnate - who'd choose to work in an industry that expects you to work for nothing? With no new people coming in, there'll be less innovation. This is the way all industries works - attract new blood and get fresh ideas.



Good points here. But professional programmers could still exist without the same business model used today.
Imagine a company needed, for example, some accounting software. They'd hire some programmers, and pay them an agreed fee for the job. The company would have their software, the programmers would have their rewards, everyone's happy. Nobody would then lose out if that software was released to anyone else who wanted to use it.

Quote steveman:

Quote:

Thirdly, I'd like to stray into the realms of fantasy, Captain Mainwaring. Imagine I had a machine capable of copying real, physical things for free...



Nice utopian fantasy you live in ...

By making the stuff for free, you immediately would put pie makers and shoemakers etc. out of business, that's basic economics. This would throw millions of people out of work, and while they'd not be short of shoes or cheese and onion pies they wouldn't have any way of buying a roof over their heads etc.



I'd imagine you could make a copier big enough to copy buildings etc.
And of course, the very first thing you'd do with a magic copying machine would be to make copies of it to give to all your friends!

Quote steveman:

Quote:

When does it become morally *right* for me to deprive people of something they could have for free? Because this is the behaviour that anti-piracy laws exist to enforce, and I'm really not sure what the moral justification for this is.



The justification is that people should be rewarded for their work, altruism is all very well but people do need to live. Why is it that software developers and musicians and other creatives are expected to work for free?



Another excellent point. Of course people should be rewarded for doing a good job.
And of course I do understand that there are substantial developement costs involved in a complex piece of software such as Cubase. Is it morally right, however, for Steinberg to continue to reap financial benefits from something long after it's paid for itself, and then some? Why couldn't they make an older version such as Cubase VST freely and *legally* available to everyone? It'd be great PR, provide a morally acceptable alternative for those who now 'pirate' software, and I'm sure if some of those people went on to become professionals, they'd want to buy the latest and greatest version.

On a related note, I read elswhere in this forum that copyright on a piece of music can last *70 years* after the death of its creator. How the f&*k does that reward the poor dead guy for his work?

Is it morally right that Simon May should have earned millions from the Eastenders theme tune?

I have some serious doubts about copyright law as it stands today.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: steveman new [Re: Chillum]
      #221349 - 06/12/05 05:14 PM
Quote Chillum:


I have some serious doubts about copyright law as it stands today.



I agree about copyright law whether it be 70 years after someone's dead or James Brown getting the royalties when Clyde Stubblefield's Funky Drummer loop is used. This argument though has nothing to do with cracked software.


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Simon (aka UK03878)



Joined: 02/11/05
Posts: 1504
Loc: Munching a Carrot, The Fens
Re: steveman new [Re: Chillum]
      #221350 - 06/12/05 05:15 PM
Quote Chillum:


Is it morally right that Simon May should have earned millions from the Eastenders theme tune?




Howabout one of the most famous themes in modern history - Windows logon - Eno should have gone for a royalty - he went for £35k
OR how about the Channel Four theme in the 80s/90s
David Dundas, composer of the four-note Channel 4 "theme", won a court battle to retain all rights to his creation and £1000 a week in royalties


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: noiseconjecture new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221351 - 06/12/05 05:15 PM
noiseconjecture - no offense taken mate.


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Pat]
      #221359 - 06/12/05 05:22 PM
Quote Pat:


If your car rental provider want to charge you that much for renting a car, you would go elsewhere!




OK then, point me at the software developers who work on a subscription or fee-per-use basis.


Quote Pat:

If you think £300 is too much to pay for cubase sx then try Music Studio from magix its only £50! (still no SOS review? Maybe reviewing this would give some more acceptability to this P.O.V to our descerning yet financially retiscent freinds...)




I dont think £300 is too much to pay for cubase SX if you use it every day - under those circumstances it's a great deal. But if you only use it once, or once every 2 years, it's expensive. Cubase isnt a great example I admit, as not many people buy a sequencer for occasional use.


Quote Pat:

But of course we couldn't do this "'cos magix aint cubase innit...bizarrely what we covet most is the "rip off" products made by the "corporate whores" we so despise..."




Poor old steinberg, eh? People have somehow inferred from their heavy ad & marketing spend that there arent any serious contenders to Cubase. They must be gutted...

Quote Pat:

Cusbase is only what £300 - this does not make it a premuim product... Sure its not dirt cheap but compare it to the price of say a Manley EQ or a RADAR system (or for that matter nuendo)




Ok so there's premium and there's premium. It's not really very fruitful to compare Cubase SX with a Manley EQ or a Radar system, given that both the latter items are complex hardware designs from much smaller companies. Once you've designed a Manley EQ, producing a 1000 units will still cost a fixed amount in materials, manpower (expensive, skilled manpower) and storage. Once you've written the code, making 1000 copies of SX costs nowt.

How many software music products with no hardware component cost more than £300? Nuendo, as you point out. Samplitude, Wavelab. I'm sure there are more but it's a limited selection. Pro Tools & TDM plug ins generally require a hardware component to run so they dont count.

How many software music products cost less than £300? The vast majority of them. In addition to that, it's at the top of steinberg's cubase family of products. Thats why i would class SX as a premium product, albeit a mass market one compared to nuendo.

Quote Pat:

Observant readers will notice the words "when I go to university next year" etc contained in many of the posts that whinge about how software is overpriced... Recording music does not in fact have to be an expensive hobby, but if you have bought in to the marketing mans hype that you need certain equipment so that your girlfriend or whover thinks the song you wrote about her sounds "pro" then I suggest you stop wasting time on internet forums & get yourselves a paper round...





Yes, but you didnt see that in my post, did you? And to be honest, i think it cheapens you to indulge in this kind of abuse as up until this point you were building up a decent argument, one which required a response on my part.

I am a student, as it goes. I'm also a professional composer & producer. And I'm studying Electrical Engineering, not music technology. So i dont go near any music software in my academic capacity. I do, however, have an insight into the product design process as a result of my studies which is something I've tried to bring to bear on my posts on this thread.

As you can imagine juggling my music making and my studying doesnt leave me with a lot of spare time, and you'll notice that I didnt contribute to this thread at all yesterday for this very reason. i've taken time out today to put my points across because i think it's a very important issue, and because my take on it is rather more complex than some of the fundamentalist opinions being banded about by others.

And learn to use the quote commands! i only want to rip your arguments apart figuratively, not literally

--------------------
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R. Spisketts



Joined: 29/01/05
Posts: 1319
Loc: Southsea
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221366 - 06/12/05 05:35 PM
A while ago, someone said something like

"musicians should worry less about their creative stuff and focus more on the business"

in which case, from a pure bottom-line point of view, it makes good sense to use pirated software, no?

sure... lying awake at night worrying about getting pinched might be counter-productive. And if you do a cost-benefit analysis factoring in all the time spent on p2p networks looking for a stable crack, then suddenly free pirated software isn't so free - unless you place no value on your precious time, that is!

Still, doesn't change the fact that its illegal. So the "look at yourself as a business" analogy doesn't work - since no smart business would do something so blatantly illegal as use pirated software...

... well, I'm a software developer by trade, and I've worked for just such a beast. If you think a few hundred £££ is a lot, well, a license for professional software development tools can run into thousands - multiply that by 20, 50 or a 100 staff and you're looking at a heap big pile 'o ££££. The company I worked for had a single machine setup with a publicly available collection of all sorts of software - along with all the cracks. Then they were fined by FAST. They carried on regardless.

So thats the illegal stuff... never mind all the morally objectionable practices that go on in business every minute of every day.

Oh and the company in question is thriving and successful, btw.

Some of the people here, I just wonder whether you live your lives according to the black and white moral viewpoints that you espouse? Or is it just forum soapboxing?

Anyways, no real point to make... the reference to business just caught my eye...



--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221370 - 06/12/05 05:41 PM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote Martin: the return...:

THAT STATEMENT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT. iF IT WASNT, THERE WOULDNT BE ANY PIRACY, AND WE WOULDNT BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.




Wrong again!! The fact that the software is 'not your priviledge to use unless you paid for it' does not mean that there are not those amongst us, professioanl joy-riders that they are, who will not use it regardless.

Beya




beya, thats not what you originally said. Your original quote was:

Quote beyarecords:

THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT.




Now it's changed to


Quote beyarecords:

'not your priviledge to use unless you paid for it'




In the last post, I made reference to fundamentalist opinions. No prizes for guessing that i was talking about you. You've posted a series of confrontational statements, not made any effort to back them up with an argument, and finally you came out with a statement that makes no logical sense at all. When challenged on this, you repeated yourself as if to drown me out by sheer volume, and when that didnt work you tried to change your original statement. There's no point in altering what you said now. The original is there for everyone to see further up the thread.

I've put quite a lot of time and effort into my posts to make sure that my arguments are backed up with an thorough explaination and research where necessary. I'd really appreciate it if you could afford me the same courtesy.

If you cant or wont do this, I'll assume your trolling and ignore you. I'd advise everyone else to do the same.

--------------------
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Dishpan



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 813
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221371 - 06/12/05 05:41 PM
> I take it you exhausted all communication with Steinberg in regards to obtaining a replacement dongle before you decided to joy-ride!?

Joy ride? The guy's bought the program and can't use it!!!

During a recording session a couple of years ago, my dongle died and I had to wait a couple of weeks for a replacement. I used a crack, and would do again without any thought.

Are you seriously saying I should have gone without work for those two weeks?


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: R. Spisketts]
      #221374 - 06/12/05 05:43 PM
Quote Sir Lurkalot:

Some of the people here, I just wonder whether you live your lives according to the black and white moral viewpoints that you espouse? Or is it just forum soapboxing?




No being pompus is trying to convince others that it is ok to lie/cheat/steal due to the fact that everynoe you have worked for or know does it! If that's your thing then all the best to you, me personally I prefer to make my own path instead of following a trail.

Beya


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221382 - 06/12/05 05:50 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

beya, thats not what you originally said. Your original quote was:

Quote beyarecords:

THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT.




Now it's changed to


Quote beyarecords:

'not your priviledge to use unless you paid for it'







Can someone please tell what the difference is between
Quote:

THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT



and:
Quote:

not your priviledge to use unless you paid for it




apart from nothing?!?!?!

Beya


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dishpan]
      #221391 - 06/12/05 05:58 PM
Quote kris:

> I take it you exhausted all communication with Steinberg in regards to obtaining a replacement dongle before you decided to joy-ride!?

Joy ride? The guy's bought the program and can't use it!!!

During a recording session a couple of years ago, my dongle died and I had to wait a couple of weeks for a replacement. I used a crack, and would do again without any thought.

Are you seriously saying I should have gone without work for those two weeks?




I paid £1300 for the same application, and I can tell you I would have made the distributor give me another copy of the same application if I suspected that it was faulty.

Just imagine I paid £10,000 for a plazma TV and it didn't work, so instead of marching back to the place I bought it from, to get a replacement, I went out and picked one off the street that one of the neighbours had thrown out. You must be bloody joking. Either i'd have my £10,000 back or a new TV, trust me.

Beya


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221393 - 06/12/05 06:00 PM
Quote beyarecords:


Can someone please tell what the difference is between
Quote:

THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT



and:
Quote:

not your priviledge to use unless you paid for it




apart from nothing?!?!?!

Beya




If you download a cracked piece of software or copy it off someone, then it's yours to use. There's nothing stopping you from using it, it's there on your hard drive - all you have to do is open it up. If there was a physical barrier preventing you from using it, then the pirate copy would be worthless and no one would use pirate software.

But you dont have the legal right to use it (or priviledge, as you would say) until you pay for it. No one here is contesting that.

Surely thats the whole issue - there's nothing stopping people from using software, even if they havent paid for the legal right to do so. That is the situation being debated on this thread.

I cant put it any clearer than that - it seems totally obvious to me.

--------------------
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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: steveman new [Re: Chillum]
      #221398 - 06/12/05 06:06 PM
Quote Chillum:

Imagine a company needed, for example, some accounting software. They'd hire some programmers, and pay them an agreed fee for the job. The company would have their software, the programmers would have their rewards, everyone's happy. Nobody would then lose out if that software was released to anyone else who wanted to use it.




the programmers lose out - because their potential market for the next gig is eroded by the giveaway ...

Quote Chillum:


On a related note, I read elswhere in this forum that copyright on a piece of music can last *70 years* after the death of its creator. How the f&*k does that reward the poor dead guy for his work?




it rewards his estate - if you have dependents that is more important than reaping the rewards yourself

Quote Chillum:


Is it morally right that Simon May should have earned millions from the Eastenders theme tune?




it's a superbly appropriate piece of music that brings a lot of dramatic value to a TV series that millions watch - as far as I'm concerned any material rewards for the composer are well earned - I wish I'd had the creativity to write it


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221401 - 06/12/05 06:09 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

Surely thats the whole issue - there's nothing stopping people from using software, even if they havent paid for the legal right to do so. That is the situation being debated on this thread.




Can someone who has software on their machine, use it? Doesn't even warrant a reply.

Beya


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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221404 - 06/12/05 06:13 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

Once you've written the code, making 1000 copies of SX costs nowt.




Not true, the more users you have, the more your support, distribution, sales etc costs will mushroom ...


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221410 - 06/12/05 06:21 PM
Quote beyarecords:

Quote Martin: the return...:

Surely thats the whole issue - there's nothing stopping people from using software, even if they havent paid for the legal right to do so. That is the situation being debated on this thread.




Can someone who has software on their machine, use it? Doesn't even warrant a reply.

Beya




Yes of course they can. So how then is it not theirs to use?

The swings in the park are 'yours to use' if you feel like it - it doesnt follow from that that you own them, or that you own a licence allowing you to use them. It just means that there's nothing preventing you from using them.

Look at that, look again at your statement 'THE PRODUCT IS NOT YOURS TO USE UNLESS YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE PRIVILEDGE TO USE IT' and tell me it's not nonsense.

--------------------
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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #221413 - 06/12/05 06:31 PM
Quote Bill C:

Quote Martin: the return...:

Once you've written the code, making 1000 copies of SX costs nowt.




Not true, the more users you have, the more your support, distribution, sales etc costs will mushroom ...




How much does reproducing 1000 copies of cubase SX cost as a percentage of the cost of reproducing 1000 Manley EQs? Leaving aside R&D costs? I'd suggest it's in the order of 0.1%. Not quite nowt, but very close.

It's hard to factor in distribution, sales and customer support - every company does this differently, so you cant compare like with like without serious research. But i would suggest that Manley's sales & customer service costs are considerable higher than Steinberg's customer for customer. Sales, distribution and support costs dont tend to mushroom as the user base expands, they get smaller per customer due to ecomonies of scale.

From the experience of some Nuendo users on this thread, it appears steinberg might have found a way of reducing their support costs in absolute terms too... but thats another story!

--------------------
www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox

Edited by Martin: the return... (06/12/05 06:37 PM)


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Dark Fader
sith lord


Joined: 03/01/04
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221427 - 06/12/05 07:00 PM
You're still missing the point, music software companies DO NOT MAKE BIG PROFITS. Also they are generally not large enough to exploit the advantages of economies of scale. (Suggested reading: Scale & Scope: Dynamics of Industrial Capitalism, A.D. Chandler)

--------------------
...rubbish at words 'n' stuff.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: steveman new [Re: Bill C]
      #221475 - 06/12/05 08:57 PM
Quote Chillum:


Is it morally right that Simon May should have earned millions from the Eastenders theme tune?



I think 'millions' is a little optimistic. I wrote the theme to 'Breakfast with Frost' which ran for 12 years and I have another show running five days a week on BBC2 called 'The Daily Politics' and one on BBC1 Saturday nights called 'Backlash' so I kind of have an idea as to what he makes. Oh, and the new Sony PSP commercial (forgot that one). There is a popular misconception that composers make stacks of money through TV. Very nice living? Yes. Millions? No!


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Chillum



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 20
Re: Commander new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #221490 - 06/12/05 09:54 PM
The 'millions' comes on pretty good authority (Phil Rice, who co-writes with Rick Guard), and it seems plausible to me considering the amount of worldwide syndication Eastenders must get. I admit I could be wrong on this though, you're in a much better position to know about it than I am.


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: Commander new [Re: Chillum]
      #221555 - 07/12/05 12:14 AM
Quote Chillum:

... considering the amount of worldwide syndication Eastenders must get.



Actually that's a good point. And it has been running for about 73 years. Quite possible in that case!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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steveman



Joined: 17/03/02
Posts: 1142
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Re: steveman new [Re: Chillum]
      #221566 - 07/12/05 12:54 AM
Quote:


Quote:

steveman:
The open source movement would & could not exist without the current software industry. How do open source software developers earn a living? - mostly as PAID software developers. Without the current industry they'd have had no training in programming as colleges wouldn't have trained them if there'd been no industry to train them for in the 1st place. With no money coming into the industry it will stagnate - who'd choose to work in an industry that expects you to work for nothing? With no new people coming in, there'll be less innovation. This is the way all industries works - attract new blood and get fresh ideas.





Good points here. But professional programmers could still exist without the same business model used today.
Imagine a company needed, for example, some accounting software. They'd hire some programmers, and pay them an agreed fee for the job. The company would have their software, the programmers would have their rewards, everyone's happy. Nobody would then lose out if that software was released to anyone else who wanted to use it.




The programmers would be hired to do that one job, that's all, what would they live on the rest of the time? If their work was then distributed free to 1000's of other companies, they'd have no more customers for accounting software. They'd only get more work by writing custom software for each and every company, but if they did that it'd be pointless distributing it for free as it'd be useless to other companies by it's 'custom' nature.

Quote:

.... Is it morally right, however, for Steinberg to continue to reap financial benefits from something long after it's paid for itself, and then some?




By rights then Steinberg should have huge profits then - which they don't. As has been pointed out they were sold for £18 million - that was staff, any assets, intellectual property, the lot. They'd been going for around 15 years when sold, were the arguably the world's leading music software house and had pretty much invented modern computer music sequencing as we now know it. Hardly strikes me as a profit making powerhouse, and I'm sure if they were they'd not have sold out. If thety stop receiving income how do they pay for development of newer versions? When do they cut off, after the 1st 1000 customers? They'd no doubt be really pleased to find they'd paid good money for what was now available for free.

Quote:


Why couldn't they make an older version such as Cubase VST freely and *legally* available to everyone? It'd be great PR, provide a morally acceptable alternative for those who now 'pirate' software, and I'm sure if some of those people went on to become professionals, they'd want to buy the latest and greatest version.



This isn't a bad idea. It's interesting to note that the computer graphics mags regularly give away older versions of software, and have an offer to upgrade to the latest version for a much lower cost. Admittedly, it generally seems to be the smaller software houses that do this. The music softare market is much smaller, perhaps it's not economic.

Quote:


Is it morally right that Simon May should have earned millions from the Eastenders theme tune?




I'm not convinced it is, but then many of those who've reached the top in their professions seem to be rewarded way out of proportion to their talent / what they actually do. Not sure there's much we can do about it though

Quote:

I have some serious doubts about copyright law as it stands today.



So have I, and don't get me started on patent law ...


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Dishpan



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 813
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #221615 - 07/12/05 09:01 AM
> I paid £1300 for the same application, and I can tell you I would have made the distributor give me another copy of the same application if I suspected that it was faulty.

I already told you the dongle NOT the program was faulty. I did get a new dongle, but had to wait two weeks to get it....


> Just imagine I paid £10,000 for a plazma TV and it didn't work, so instead of marching back to the place I bought it from, to get a replacement, I went out and picked one off the street that one of the neighbours had thrown out. You must be bloody joking.

I didn't take anything from anyone, as I've bought the program and wanted to be able to use what I'd bought. Exactly which part of this don't you understand?


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dark Fader]
      #221629 - 07/12/05 09:36 AM
Quote Dark Fader:

You're still missing the point, music software companies DO NOT MAKE BIG PROFITS. Also they are generally not large enough to exploit the advantages of economies of scale. (Suggested reading: Scale & Scope: Dynamics of Industrial Capitalism, A.D. Chandler)




Well, compared to what? We were originally talking about steinberg and manley - i think steinberg's profit's are going to be higher than manley's.

However, i agree that the $28.5M that yamaha paid for Steinberg does seem a bit small for a leading audio software developer.

I dont know how much debt steinberg were in or how much they had in the way of assets, so I cant read too much into that figure. I'm sure they would have contracted out thier manufacturing and distribution, so it's possible that they had very little in the way of concrete assets - maybe only their equipment and permanent staff of programmers.

Maybe lurkalot or someone else who works in the industry can shed some light on this?

I'm not having a specific pop at steinberg, the original comments were about large software developers in general - steinberg were just the example that came to hand.

Thanks for the book rec, I'll check it out.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Bill C]
      #221644 - 07/12/05 09:51 AM
Quote Bill C:

Quote IvanSC:

Is there any other market where the product is licensed on a non-transferrable basis.





How about a musician playing a gig? - he won't be pleased if a member of the audience records the gig and sells the resulting recording to others without paying the muso.

(Ivan) Happens all the time to me - Since I am not a mega recording star and I got paid for the gig, what do I care?
Guarantee anyone who DOES have a recording deal worth money guards the recording on gigs thang well.

Quote IvanSC:


It really is a one-sided relationship, where the "buyer" is actually expected to pay in full up front for the product




... say a musician's going rate is £200 for a gig - he won't be pleased if the promoter says I'll pay you on a sliding scale starting at £30 depending on what we take on the bar.

(Ivan) Where ya been lately? Plenty of gigs are exactly like that. `70`s pub rock circuit in London was exactly that. You got to keep 80% of the door. Once you broke the fire limit at the Hope and Anchor a couple of times you got a crack at the Nashville Rooms or The Rock Garden on the same basis.
We`re all self-employed sub-contractors, mate!

Also, who do you know who gets £200 a night on a regular (like 4 nights a week) basis in the UK that doiesn`t have a serious rep going for them? I`d like to join please.

Quote IvanSC:

I could buy a hardware unit that does the same sort of thing for the price that these greedy baskets want for their plugins.






About the thread in general ...

I think the problem here is that "professional" versions of software are not expensive for genuine *money-making* professional use. It is pricey if you aren't making money from its use, but frankly if you aren't earning your living via the software you almost certainly don't need it - a cut down "lite" version will almost certainly suffice, albeit with less cachet ...

(Ivan) Yeah but even the "lite" versions are not THAT cheap anymore. And as for the upgrades....!


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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: IvanSC]
      #221660 - 07/12/05 10:20 AM
Quote IvanSC:


It really is a one-sided relationship, where the "buyer" is actually expected to pay in full up front for the product



Quote Bill C:


... say a musician's going rate is £200 for a gig - he won't be pleased if the promoter says I'll pay you on a sliding scale starting at £30 depending on what we take on the bar.



Quote IvanSC:


Where ya been lately? Plenty of gigs are exactly like that.




I realise that. My point, perhaps badly made, was that the software companies have the right to set a price for their products/services, as does a musician or any other supplier. There are always cheaper alternatives available to the customer with a limited budget.


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dishpan]
      #221690 - 07/12/05 10:50 AM
Quote kris:

> Exactly which part of this don't you understand?




Probably the bit about the CRACK!!

Beya


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Pat
member


Joined: 18/02/03
Posts: 133
Loc: London
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #221799 - 07/12/05 02:32 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:

Quote Pat:


If your car rental provider want to charge you that much for renting a car, you would go elsewhere!




OK then, point me at the software developers who work on a subscription or fee-per-use basis.




Not fee per use, but an alternative "rental system"

http://www.samplitude.com/de/sfr_NE.htm

Or use cheaper software (for the majority of us)! As for you...

Quote Martin: the return...:

[I am a... professional composer & producer.




I guess it's only right and proper that you should use the the top line products - I guess the money you make should pay for a copy though?

Hollow sun used to let people download samples for free, and pay if they used them. Guess what? No one paid!

Quote Martin: the return...:

I do, however, have an insight into the product design process as a result of my studies which is something I've tried to bring to bear on my posts on this thread.




OK - Thank you - I do not have this experience so I will try and be more receptive.

I do however have some experience (for my part) in buisiness, and as far as I can see, if people do not buy your product, your buisiness will fail.

Quote Martin: the return...:

I dont think £300 is too much to pay for cubase SX if you use it every day - under those circumstances it's a great deal. But if you only use it once, or once every 2 years, it's expensive. Cubase isnt a great example I admit, as not many people buy a sequencer for occasional use.




Sic probo...

If its worth pirating you must feel you need it, in which case you shouldn't mind paying for it... If its not worth the cash buy something else...

Quote Martin: the return...:

Poor old steinberg, eh? People have somehow inferred from their heavy ad & marketing spend that there arent any serious contenders to Cubase. They must be gutted...




Logic/Sonar/Pro tools are all serious contenders to cubase.

If you want to use Logic you have to buy a Mac which makes it EVEN more of an exclusive club...

But like I say if you really need it stump up the dough...

What I am trying to say (perhaps inelegantly) is that we should all try to show the will to ignore the marketing hype - You could use for example Tracktion or like other have said cubase SE if you are that broke...

Quote Martin: the return...:

Ok so there's premium and there's premium. It's not really very fruitful to compare Cubase SX with a Manley EQ or a Radar system, given that both the latter items are complex hardware designs from much smaller companies. Once you've designed a Manley EQ, producing a 1000 units will still cost a fixed amount in materials, manpower (expensive, skilled manpower) and storage. Once you've written the code, making 1000 copies of SX costs nowt




I knew I should't have used the hardware comparison! School boy error...

OK, fair enough, but people *have* to pay for their hardware (unless they buy it at a dogy pub! )- There is not the potential there to copy it (but... please see other threads on Behringer & convolution!)- There is this potential for software which means that perhaps no one would buy a copy.

I think its also a bit unfair to suggest that the designers of software do not have other costs - For example support/bug fixes/developing improvements (cakewalk have now intergrated "auto tune" type stuff dor instance)

Quote Martin: the return...:

How many software music products with no hardware component cost more than £300? Nuendo, as you point out. Samplitude, Wavelab. I'm sure there are more but it's a limited selection. Pro Tools & TDM plug ins generally require a hardware component to run so they dont count.




Photo shop, Microsoft offfice suite (full, non oem version), SAGE, final cut pro, macromedia flash... In fact any software with a marketplace cosisting of pro's (I admit that the Microsoft products should perhaps be excluded here )

Quote Martin: the return...:

How many software music products cost less than £300? The vast majority of them. .




Exactly - Buy them intead!

Quote Martin: the return...:

Quote Pat:

Observant readers will notice the words "when I go to university next year" etc contained in many of the posts that whinge about how software is overpriced... Recording music does not in fact have to be an expensive hobby, but if you have bought in to the marketing mans hype that you need certain equipment so that your girlfriend or whover thinks the song you wrote about her sounds "pro" then I suggest you stop wasting time on internet forums & get yourselves a paper round...





Yes, but you didn’t see that in my post, did you? And to be honest, i think it cheapens you to indulge in this kind of abuse as up until this point you were building up a decent argument, one which required a response on my part.




Wasn't aimed exclusively at you Martin, but on relection, Sorry, it was a cheap shot... I remember being a hard up student too... I used to buy SOS every month but couldn't afford the equipment I wanted (all hardware in the mid nineties...). I had to wait till I got a job after I graduated...

Quote Martin: the return...:

I'm studying Electrical Engineering, not music technology




The world is crying out for people with your skills - You will certainly be able to afford what ever you want when you graduate - Because people will *pay* you for your work (like we should pay for the work of programmers)

Quote Martin: the return...:

As you can imagine juggling my music making and my studying doesnt leave me with a lot of spare time, and you'll notice that I didnt contribute to this thread at all yesterday for this very reason




As you can imagine juggling my music making, full time job & *my* studying (at night school for exams too boring to go into here...) doesn't leave me with a lot of time either, so you’re in good company.

I’m sure Max the Mac could add forum moderating & kids to the list…

Quote Martin: the return...:

i've taken time out today to put my points across because i think it's a very important issue, and because my take on it is rather more complex than some of the fundamentalist opinions being banded about by others.






I can only apologise for my simplistic understanding of the issues. I must admit the argument that “software is overpriced & I have no money” is a novel one that I have not come across before – Maybe I need some time to digest it….

Quote Martin: the return...:

And learn to use the quote commands! i only want to rip your arguments apart figuratively, not literally




“to be honest, i think it cheapens you to indulge in this kind of abuse”

Two pots are we, calling each other black! (Master Yoda – Deleted scene SW ep 2 )

Hope this is easier to “rip apart”!


Cheers,




Pat


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Henry-S
member


Joined: 11/07/04
Posts: 937
Loc: UK, Cornwall
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #222124 - 08/12/05 01:31 AM
I haven't read the entire thread, because most of it is the same old argument of, "if you can't afford the software, you don't need it" or "yes i need to work on it and i need access to it at home".

The simple fact is, yes people should buy the software, they should support developers to continue to improve their product and for their employers to make their living.

But I think the point that people don't seem to get is that the exp you gain on programs which are at "uni's" and "colleges" ain't all that great sometimes. I tried to get a Cubase SX license when i was at Uni and it was utter hell. I was having to put together reasons for why i needed to use software which would entitle me to a student discount and countless other crap which made me think "jeez no wonder why all students just copy the stuff"

Now i am of the "view" that downloading and using a piece of software to learn on, is in a entirely different ball park to downloading it and sticking it on ebay to sell.

I mean jeez did everyone stick to 70mph when they drove home from work yesterday?

As many say, I'm sure there are plenty of users who downloaded Cubase or some other program and then really liked it and went out and bought it. These are users that they wouldn't have even had because they give no trial copies, no "shareware".

I see plugin companies who make demos which give a blip of sound every 30 seconds but you don't see sequencer companies doing anything like that, they give out a reduce version which you have to pay for, which means that you get to learn a piece of software that ain't going to be used anywhere, what a useful product.

The plugins will cost say £200-300 and you can demo them till your hearts content, make sure they do exactly what you want them to do. You pay nothing, because they are not useable versions for productions, just for hearing and using them. So why do companies not take the same approach to their sequencers and allow users to trial them. They are asking for £500 for a piece of software you cannot even use before hand and you "hope" you might like it and if you want to try it out your told "well buy this version and if you like it upgrade" but if you don't like it thats £80 down the drain.

Basically piracy is always going to be around and everyone has their opinion on it, but I think that some companies really have a way to go to offer the consumer a better option than just "buy our downgraded version".

I just hope that nobody has anything recorded off the tv, or radio and has kept it for more than 24 hours, because thats a criminal offence as well!

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky


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Q00
member


Joined: 01/10/02
Posts: 821
Loc: sussex
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #222131 - 08/12/05 02:19 AM
has anyone else noticed that this thread, which is the longest in a while, was started by Dr Fister who I believe got banned from the SOS forum a few days ago.

Perhaps he wasn't the small minded fool he made himself out to be. then again ..........


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9349
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #222167 - 08/12/05 08:38 AM
You know, I hate this damn topic.

This bastard rears it's head every couple of months and is littered with some poor analogies at best, and some dire attempts at justifications.

However, I will not be a hypocrite and sit on the fence on this one.

I use loads and loads of softwares, and more because I end up beta testing for the developers, or creating sound libraries for the products, or simply reviewing them, so I end up with cd after cd of NFR versions of these softwares, along with paid for versions of softwares that I use in my business.

Now, bear with me: I always chuckle when I hear of some 17 year old computer whizzo breaking into some governemnt's computer and 'moving things around', or a similar kid breaking into a well established populus raping bank and screws with their system just to show it's vulnerabilitities.

Why this little story?
Simple.

With all the developers or development houses that I work with, I have got to know most of the employees and owners, and I can tell you that companies you think are big multinational conglomerates are nothing more than a few guys trying to develop and market their creativity, and I find something abhorrently wrong and personal when I hear about them getting ripped off, especially when down the line they have to either close or lay off what meagre staff they have.

It is the same feeling I get when I hear of some artiste getting ripped off with clever manipulation of his works.

This type of theft is very personal and does affect the creator.

When you put a human face to this argument, things don't look so justified anymore huh?

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Dark Fader
sith lord


Joined: 03/01/04
Posts: 652
Loc: Death Star
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Zukan]
      #222173 - 08/12/05 09:07 AM
Very well put Zukan.

As you say, and as I've said before, we're not talking about fat cats here, these companies despite being leaders in their field, lead a pretty much hand to mouth existence and i for one don't want to see them disappear or have to cut back on new developments or probably where costs are likey to be cut, in QA. If you want them to exist in the future (with stable products) then buy their software! Simple.

Cheers,

Jim

--------------------
...rubbish at words 'n' stuff.

Edited by Dark Fader (08/12/05 09:09 AM)


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Bill C



Joined: 13/10/04
Posts: 625
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Zukan]
      #222177 - 08/12/05 09:19 AM
well said Zukan - you hit the nail right on the head sir


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Ian Stewart



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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Zukan]
      #222183 - 08/12/05 09:31 AM
Excellent Zukan excellent (I of course read your views on my post aswell) - that's how it is and expressed concisely. I hope all the *moral* users of cracked software realise just what they are doing and change their ways.


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Digital



Joined: 08/12/05
Posts: 35
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #222214 - 08/12/05 10:28 AM
I hope that if some kid from some Third World country will get a used PC for Christmas and then managed to get his hands on a cracked DAW, MORAL USERS will change their ways and will not call him a thief or blame him for dire state of music software industry.

--------------------
Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?


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Dark Fader
sith lord


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Digital]
      #222242 - 08/12/05 11:09 AM
Quote Digital:

I hope that if some kid from some Third World country will get a used PC for Christmas and then managed to get his hands on a cracked DAW, MORAL USERS will change their ways and will not call him a thief or blame him for dire state of music software industry.




?

What's your point?

--------------------
...rubbish at words 'n' stuff.


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Digital



Joined: 08/12/05
Posts: 35
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dark Fader]
      #222261 - 08/12/05 11:31 AM
The point was lost in translation.

--------------------
Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Digital]
      #222262 - 08/12/05 11:32 AM
Quote Digital:

I hope that if some kid from some Third World country will get a used PC for Christmas and then managed to get his hands on a cracked DAW, MORAL USERS will change their ways and will not call him a thief or blame him for dire state of music software industry.




Yaaaawwwwwnnnn. We're not talking about that - I wish people who justify cracked software would stop using the third world as an excuse, its tasteless.


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Digital



Joined: 08/12/05
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #222263 - 08/12/05 11:35 AM
Third World is tasteless?!

Are you serious?

--------------------
Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Digital]
      #222266 - 08/12/05 11:41 AM
Digital - you've missed the point. We are talking about something else. The people I know who used cracked software are not in the third world. They are in this country, they can afford to buy it but don't. If you read the previous posts, from people like myself who condemn software piracy, you will realise you have misunderstood what we are saying.


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Digital



Joined: 08/12/05
Posts: 35
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #222269 - 08/12/05 11:43 AM
I understand that you believe that kid from Mozambique has an excuse.

What about kid from New Orleans or Bronx?

--------------------
Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?


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drumon



Joined: 01/09/04
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Digital]
      #222272 - 08/12/05 11:49 AM
Quote Digital:


What about kid from New Orleans or Bronx?




There are many poverty ridden regions of the world outside the USA and the third world, including parts of many cities in the UK and elsewhere in Europe I'm sure.

Discuss piracy and relevant solutions.
Poverty isnt something that the software developers are going to be able to affect, is it!

Edited by drumon (08/12/05 11:59 AM)


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Pat]
      #222288 - 08/12/05 12:09 PM
Quote Pat:



Quote Martin: the return...:

And learn to use the quote commands! i only want to rip your arguments apart figuratively, not literally




“to be honest, i think it cheapens you to indulge in this kind of abuse”

Two pots are we, calling each other black! (Master Yoda – Deleted scene SW ep 2 )





Touche.

The 'fundamentalist opinions' jibe was aimed at beya, not you, but for that reason it should have had it's own post I admit. Sorry for the confusion.

And those last few paragraphs do come across as a bit holier than thou on re-reading. I was responding to what i thought were pretty disparaging personal remarks so it should be read in that light.

I still think you're missing my point though.

Before we start, parts of your post seem to imply my argument is basically a dressed-up justification of my personal decision to use a cracked copy of Cubase SX. Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines, but I'll clarify anyway: I use a legit copy of Sonar Studio v.3 in my studio, i've never used a copy of SX cracked or otherwise. I was using it as an example. As I said above, it's not a great example for various reasons and it's starting to look as if I'm having a specific go at steinberg, so I'll use something else from now on.

Quote Pat:

Quote Martin: the return...:

I dont think £300 is too much to pay for cubase SX if you use it every day - under those circumstances it's a great deal. But if you only use it once, or once every 2 years, it's expensive. Cubase isnt a great example I admit, as not many people buy a sequencer for occasional use.




Sic probo...

If its worth pirating you must feel you need it, in which case you shouldn't mind paying for it... If its not worth the cash buy something else... .




I dont think that addresses what i said at all. It's wholly reasonable for someone to evaluate a service on how frequently they use it. People make decisions like that all the time.

And I dont see that just because you use a service infrequently, it folows that you can make do with a cut down version of that service when you do use it.

Take dreamweaver MX as an example (a better one than cubase), i only use it about once a year but when i do I need the features it has that cheaper web design packages dont. I'm lucky because i live with a pro web designer and I can use his legit copy, but if i didnt I'd have 2 choices: pay over £300 for something that only gets used for 2 days a year, or have a much crappier website that I cant control properly.

I dont do a huge amount of recording so i dont have any expensive mics - but if I found i needed one for a project I could hire it instead of being forced to buy it. Why cant I do the same for dreamweaver?

Say that i got a windfall from somewhere, and I decided to invest in a neumann or a les paul, or some other high end piece of kit that wouldnt get used too frequently. At least i know that even when I'm not using it, it's still my property and counts among my assets. There are no contractual restrictions on what I can do with it: i can sell it, lend it to people, lease it out if i want to. If my skills are good enough i can upgrade the design myself and sell it at a profit - I can do this on a commercial level if i wanted to.

None of this applies to software because i dont own it. All I've purchased is the right to use it. The license itself comes with so many restrictions that I cant really consider it my property. With sonar's license I'm not even allowed to sell it - I think most people (and most courts) would think that if you have something in your possession that you arent legally permitted to sell on, that thing cannot be regarded as your property.

Thats why i think it distorts the argument to think of software as property, and that it's much better to think of it as a service. And as I say, I want to be able to pay for a service on the basis of how much I use it.

This cuts both ways. I paid about £250 for Sonar, but to be honest i'd be prepared to pay 5 or 6 times that much given the amount it gets used. There's freeware that i use a lot that I've voluntarily paid for & i can reproduce the thankyou emails from the programmers if necessary. But i object to paying a flat fee for software I'm hardly ever going to use.

I cant be the only person in this position - there must be a demand for software leasing and fee-per-use systems, but no companies have come forward to supply that demand. The samplitude page you linked to is really a try-before-you-buy scheme, not a serious attempt at leasing.

Zukan and fader, i hear what your saying about the small size and vulnerability of software houses, even the market leading ones. I'm not a programmer and I've never worked in this industry except as an end user - maybe there's a tendency for those in my position to see every high profile software house as a den of flash dot-com millionaires and marketing gurus. i accept that with music software thats almost universally not the case.

However, i dont think what you're saying invalidates my argument. If software houses are going to get themselves out of the mess you say they are in, they will have to develop new ways of servicing their customers - relying on courts and the conscience of the public isnt going to work. The music industry tried that and suffered a lot of damage - now they've changed their mindset (a bit) and started supporting downloading, the situation has started to improve. From what I can see software developers still havent gone through that process.

Zukan, lurkalot, fader - if you work in or close to the industry, can you tell us a bit more about what (if anything) companies are doing to address the problems I've highlighted above? Because no-one here, including me wants to see companies going to the wall because they cant get to grips with this problem.


PS. pat what does sic probo mean? I googled it & got nothing. Expand my vocab please

--------------------
www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox

Edited by Martin: the return... (08/12/05 12:29 PM)


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Digital



Joined: 08/12/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Brooklyn NY USA
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: drumon]
      #222293 - 08/12/05 12:17 PM
Quote drumon:


Discuss piracy and relevant solutions.
Poverty isnt something that the software developers are going to be able to affect, is it!




I agree with your statement.

However, in this and similar threads some participants expressed extreme views and resorted to derogatory name calling, and I believe that truth is, as in most cases somewhere in the middle.

I personally don’t know which side is right and which side is wrong, nor do I imagine myself to be any kind of authority on the subject. But for example Richard Stallman certainly is an authority and he believes that copyright is actually detrimental to software development.

--------------------
Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?


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spjessop



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 224
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #222361 - 08/12/05 02:12 PM
Trouble is there's a stigma to using non-flagship products. I'd wager nearly all of us could manage with just Sonar Home Studio 4 which is very cheap (and features most of the important things like PDC), but they want the cachet of using the full package so steal it instead.

For me, something as trivial as the user interface isn't even an issue. I'll use whatever does the job and let others worry about the name.


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #222378 - 08/12/05 02:30 PM
Whether the software licensing agreement is a joke or not is not the question. I have to agree that is a joke, the fact that you pay huge sums of money to *use* something that is not even yours.

Regardless, it is what it is, and by opening and installing the software, you have agreed to abide by licence, agree with it or not. Once you do so, you have a legal (and moral) obligation to abide by it.

The age-old (and tired) argument about "noone is forcing you to buy it" sucks, but does have some merit. To exist in this world , most of us pretty much depend on computers and software in one form or another, you can't just boycott the technology because you don't agree with the licencing agreement.

So what do we do? We are stuck with the agreement for now, and live in a culture that wants something for nothing, hence cracked software and pirated music. If we cannot control it legally, we have to attack it morally. It is really our only choice in the short-term.

A different model is indeed needed, but if it was that simple, someone much brighter than any of us would have thought of a way a long time ago.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #222389 - 08/12/05 02:51 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:


Quote Doublehelix:

I find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, because it is a physical entity that was bought and paid for at some point, and when you borrow it, you are not copying a physical entity.

With software however, you can make an exact copy, and use that *copy*, so rather than *borrowing* a physical entity, you are making your own version, which in my book is stealing.

As I pointed out however, if you owned a version of Cubase that you installed on a computer, and I borrowed the computer *and* the software for a week while I make a song, I would say I was borrowing a physical entity, and that would be OK. You are unable to use the software while I am making my record....

So again, my bottom line here:

If you want to "borrow" software, you do not make a copy of that software, but rather you must use the *same* version of that software.




DH, please, take some time to reread this post and consider the logic behind it. I accept that in legal terms, borrowing a copyrighted work is not the same as making a copy of it - but this argument is framed in moral terms, and from a moral point of view what possible difference can it make to the originator of the work whether you deprive the legitimate license holder of the right to enjoy the work during your period of use? The bottom line, to my eyes, is that they are still being deprived of income. i'm sure the commander and his mortgage adviser would agree. This kind of micro hairsplitting might salve your conscience but it's not doing anything for this debate, apart from muddying the waters still further.






My point on borrowing vs. copying is that there is only one copy available to borrow, copying perpetuates itself into many, many copies.

You yourself have said that there are the rare times where you would like to use Dreamweaver but could not justify the expense of buying it. If there were a library around that legitimately bought the software (and rewarded the author), and you could go in and "borrow" it for a couple of hours a year. At least the author made something, plus all the legal (and moral) requirements were met. This is a similar format to what a lot of universities are doing.

The alternative is for someone to use a cracked copy, and then no one benefits.

Sure, the author is being deprived of some compensation through a borrowing scheme, but at least it is legal, and a *little bit* is a heck of a lot more compensation than *nothing* through piracy.

I agree that it is not a great or viable solution, and I am not suggesting this as the solution to piracy, I was just responding to a post on borrowing. It sounded to me that a point was being made that suggested that copying was no different than borrowing since the author receives no compensation. I disagree. They are worlds apart.

My comments are valid enough for the discussion, and where do you get off saying I am "muddying the waters" just becuase you don't agree with me? Who made you the forum moralist?

I must've missed the memo.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Simon (aka UK03878)



Joined: 02/11/05
Posts: 1504
Loc: Munching a Carrot, The Fens
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #222393 - 08/12/05 02:58 PM
Quote Doublehelix:


A different model is indeed needed, but if it was that simple, someone much brighter than any of us would have thought of a way a long time ago.



This IS the different model!!!!
The original model was to charge yearly software subscriptions on fixed term agreements (Applications AND OSs..) and charge for CPU time on hardware
Problem is none of us liked that 'cos we were then tied into hardware, propreitary OS and software
The yearly sub price for OS and Application software for a £1billion turnover company was £2.5million
For that price you could have bought a couple of Unix servers, a relational database and recruited a few C and SQL programmers
And that is exactly what happened in the late 1980s early 1990s (and then all hell broke loose)


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #222425 - 08/12/05 03:38 PM
Quote Doublehelix:

A different model is indeed needed, but if it was that simple, someone much brighter than any of us would have thought of a way a long time ago.




We do, and I am no way attacking you for the points you have made, and that is to take up a software engineering course learn how to program and develop the software for yourself if, as many feel here, your hand is being forced into purchasing an agreement you don't agree with. It's just as simple as that in my opinion. If you don't want to so something and you allow others to do it for you, then you play by their rules or not at all.

Beya


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raphus
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #222503 - 08/12/05 06:13 PM
Quote Martin: the return...:



If software houses are going to get themselves out of the mess you say they are in, they will have to develop new ways of servicing their customers - relying on courts and the conscience of the public isnt going to work. The music industry tried that and suffered a lot of damage - now they've changed their mindset (a bit) and started supporting downloading, the situation has started to improve. From what I can see software developers still havent gone through that process.




I agree, Martin, and thank you for interjecting some actual thoughtfulness into this debate. Relying on the public conscience clearly does not work, or we wouldn't be having this debate, and relying on the courts gets companies into situations like the RIAA suing that 12-year-old-girl from subsidized housing. Can you imagine a bigger blow to a company's image? Fundamentalist, with-me-or-against-me attitudes don't work here--that girl thought her mother had paid for some downloading service. Maybe she's lying, but the point is that this is an extremely complex issue, and the complexity seems lost on most people posting here.

A new model is needed (whether or not the current model is newer than some previous model), and a new model will be found. Someone or some company always finds a way to make money from a new situation, and cries of "the sky is falling" usually turn out not to be true.

Kudos to you for trying as hard as you have to get people to think about what they're writing. I tried explaining carefully and repeatedly how I thought borrowing a book deprives its author of income, how it's irrelevant that I'm not making a physical copy because the benefits of ownership are conferred by borrowing books but not by borrowing software. I gave an example of the shared DAW depriving its developers of $1,000, and I pointed out that claiming that something is true is not the same as saying why one thinks it is true. Despite all that, it "sounded" to the person engaging in that debate like I was "suggesting" that copying and borrowing were the same:

Quote Doublehelix:


It sounded to me that a point was being made that suggested that copying was no different than borrowing since the author receives no compensation. I disagree. They are worlds apart.




OK, then. I guess I was wrong, wasn't I? If one has to go on about a topic like I did just to hint at suggesting something, I'm not sure what would be required to actually emphatically make a direct point. Either way, it seems that point can simply be struck down by someone saying, "you're wrong" without any supporting evidence.

Kudos to you for trying to promote actual debate, rather than simple chest-beating. Good luck if you decide to continue!


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: raphus]
      #222521 - 08/12/05 06:50 PM
I did say "it sounded to me", and like you said earlier, we were just misunderstanding each other's point. After you pointed that out a couple of pages ago, I understood where you were coming from, and I did indeed misunderstand your original point, but your response was confusing, even when I re-read it now, although I do see what you were getting at.

I actually enjoyed your posts raphus as they provoked thought and a new way of looking at the situation. (As Martin's could have if he had left out the personal jabs)

My most recent post (above) was in response to Martin's comments about me muddying the waters. My point here was that I expressing an opinion, and just because he disagrees does not give him the right to dictate whether it was appropriate or not.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Digital]
      #222525 - 08/12/05 06:57 PM
Quote Digital:

I understand that you believe that kid from Mozambique has an excuse.




Why do you assume that? It is patronising, sanctimonius twaddle. In my experience, kids from Mozambique simply ask to be treated with same respect accorded to other human beings, and not for any special concessions (which you appear to be willing - unasked - to grant them).

As something of a student of the whole fair trade/WTO/agricultural subsidies topic, my experience is all these people want is a level playing field. They would be appalled at a view that it was somehow all right for "them" to indulge in piracy when "we" should not.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Martin: the return.....



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 408
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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #222559 - 08/12/05 08:04 PM
Quote Doublehelix:

My most recent post (above) was in response to Martin's comments about me muddying the waters. My point here was that I expressing an opinion, and just because he disagrees does not give him the right to dictate whether it was appropriate or not.




DH, i'm sorry if you took personal offence at that, it wasnt meant that way. Saying i was trying to dictate your opinions is a bit strong i think. Maybe muddying the waters has a more pejoritive meaning in the states than it does here, i dont know.

At the time I posted there were a lot of finger-pointing posts and my opinion was that the real issues of software piracy were getting obscured. Thats what i meant by muddying the waters. I still cant really see where you were going with that train of thought and i think my arguments against it are valid, but as raphus & you have called it a day on this issue then I probably should too.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #222587 - 08/12/05 09:18 PM
Hehe...it is funny how a topic like this can get everyone's feathers in a ruffle (mine included!).

I have indeed been under the weather these past 2 days with a nasty cold, and have been on the irritable side (just ask my wife!).

I apologoze to both you and Raphus. I can be a miserable git when I feel this way. Please accept my apologies, and let's move on as everyone else says...

Now where is that Nyquil bottle and box of tissues?

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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steveman



Joined: 17/03/02
Posts: 1142
Loc: London - UK
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Digital]
      #222639 - 08/12/05 11:44 PM
Quote:

... But for example Richard Stallman certainly is an authority and he believes that copyright is actually detrimental to software development.



I recall reading an interview with him 3 or 4 years ago, where he argued how Napster and music piracy was bad for musicians (he plays in a band himself) ....

We do need a new model for software usage/distribution. Some sort of rental / per usage fee seems to me to be the best way to go. Just don't ask me how to implement it.

Many of us are very disatisfied with the way 'digital media' of all sorts are putting more and more restrictions on the way we can use them. It seems as the users of the media we have fewer and fewer rights. Read a EULA and it implies that if the software doesn't perform as expected it's not the companies fault. I realise this is legal 'boilerplate' and if you've got the stomach for it you actually CAN return some software, but such statements don't give me confidenceAs long as this of continues, with the extension of copyright period being asked for by Disney etc.. with extension of patent laws to cover just about any idea that can be put on on the side of a matchbox, people will feel they are being left out.

Speaking of patents : this is for real...
Check the drawings, they are very instructive...

Edited by steveman (08/12/05 11:46 PM)


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Pat
member


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Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Martin: the return...]
      #222795 - 09/12/05 12:59 PM
sic probo - latin - "thus I prove it"

A very useful phrase if you wan't everyone on an internet forum to think you are a pompous arse!

The "sic" bit is often seen when newspapers quote someone who has made a syntax error, but do not want people to think it is they who are making a syntax error (if that makes sense!?!)

e.g. George Bush was heard to comment "The united states is entitledted (sic) to defendonstrate (sic) its interests against the terrorist folks"

etc etc

I need to re read your arguements again martin, but this will take some time so I will not respond yet if thats all the same to you.


Cheers


Pat


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raphus
member


Joined: 20/02/03
Posts: 262
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #222938 - 09/12/05 04:57 PM
Doublehelix: Apology accepted, and not really necessary. I hope I have not offended you, and I hope you feel better.

Pat: When referring to George Bush, I think the correct term is actually pric sobo. Always good to sound edjumacated, you know.

Martin: I thought I would gain further insight into this issue by discussing it with friends over dinner last night. By the third glass of wine, we were discussing Bill Gates instead; by the fourth glass, economic inequities and the environmental cost of shipping billions of little plastic water bottles all over the planet. Unfortunately, but perhaps not surprisingly, no new insights into software piracy were to be had.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Pat]
      #222973 - 09/12/05 06:10 PM
Quote Pat:

sic probo - latin - "thus I prove it"

A very useful phrase if you wan't everyone on an internet forum to think you are a pompous arse!




I'm not a Latin scholar but could *sic probo* also mean *thus I test it*. If it does this would fit in with some people's statements that they are using this post to explore their own views on the subject.


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Guy Johnson



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Posts: 4404
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Dr. Fister]
      #223065 - 10/12/05 05:53 PM
[rant]

JEEZ!!!

What a tedious thread: I blame the indulgent and useless parents of some of these posters, but mostly themselves. Morals? Whassat?

Well said Zukan.

I, for example have happily paid for Logic Pro, and Peak . . . Especially for the superb Altiverb and Tritone plugs . . . with a large proportion of my income.

All you Kevins out there, Life Is Not Fair . . . only if your attitude expects loads of stuff for nothing.

I hope all you pirates out there have your songs ripped off. Now, that would be Karma.

[/rant]

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


Edited by Guy Johnson (10/12/05 05:56 PM)


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beyarecords



Joined: 18/11/05
Posts: 68
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #223071 - 10/12/05 06:24 PM
Quote Guy Johnson:

Especially for the superb Altiverb and Tritone plugs . . . with a large proportion of my income.




Yep yep... you've got my full support there G, two of the best plugin companies around for sure. I just don't see how anyone who had any pride in their work would want to vouch for an unknown quantity!

Spread the love people. If you invest in your tools, the tool maker is then able to research into better tools, we all benefit at the end of the day, and so the cycle continues....

Beya


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4404
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: beyarecords]
      #223086 - 10/12/05 07:24 PM
Quote beyarecords:

Yep yep... you've got my full support there G, two of the best plugin companies around for sureBeya




Yes. And they are small businesses as well - you can see the care and dedication they put into their work. I sincerely hope there are no cracks of these plugs.

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Digital



Joined: 08/12/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Brooklyn NY USA
Re: i hate it!!!! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #223162 - 11/12/05 02:26 AM
It is hard not to notice in this thread that posts advocating occasional use of copyrighted software (for evaluation purposes etc.) appear to be written by honest, fair and balanced men. And those on the opposite side represented almost exclusively by members of Angry Church. Mr Johnson’s recent Parent Attack went pretty low indeed.

However, I’m very pleased that honest, fair and balanced men didn’t reply in kind and instead will chose to contribute constructive comments.



To everybody:
and especially to those representing organized religions:

Please try to understand that there are often more than just one single truth. And if two camps have a disagreement, doesn’t mean that one of them is wrong. It doesn’t mean that they have to:
“shut up”
“grow up”
“take responsibility”
And it doesn’t mean that they are:
“stupid”
“idiots”
“morons”
“thieves” and
“scam of the earth”
At the end of the day, if you will use words like that towards someone like Richard Stallman, how would you describe yourself?

--------------------
Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?


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