y

Quote Squarepeg:

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Quote Shaun Dark:

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http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

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Nice track! Although I don't think my Thinkpad speakers are doing it justice.

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Cheers man

It does rather enjoy being played on a fat system

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Edited by Shaun Dark (22/05/06 03:31 PM)

Do you just choose to only read and see what you want?

1. Fact: Elemental Audio did not sell their products or their company:
"Elemental Audio has entered into a partnership with Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"
"Elemental Audio will continue to exist as a separate entity"
"Elemental Audio will ... continue to develop audio related products"

2. It is interesting to see posts that on one hand talk about how great the company is, but then see those that devolve into saying the company was poorly run and went out of business. Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.' I've seen posts speculating that EA was offered $50k or some similar amount for all of their products - that is laughable at best.

3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

4. Fact: Some people do prefer iLoks. The fact that you choose to see this as a lie shows that you are out of touch with some of Elemental Audio's customer base, *not* that Elemental Audio is lying. An iLok is not only a protection device, it also provides an easy way to move authorizations around. Some of us actually need and desire this. Your lack of need or desire does not make the needs of others a figment of Elemental Audio's imagination.

5. Fact: Many people actually like printed documentation and boxed software, myself included. Real printed documentation - not the kind I have to print out and put in a binder myself.

6. Fact: Elemental Audio has stated that they will continue to provide support to customers for the foreseeable future. Despite this you all keep grumbling over the fact that you will no longer receive support - that you have been abandoned.

7. The pictures taken from Roger Nichols web site are obviously mock-ups. Note the fact that it is on quad-ruled graph paper - do you really think anyone would make a plug-in GUI with a background of quad-ruled graph paper? But, it's easier to speculate and condemn than to actually *ask* and find out the true answer - that would put an end to all the fun.

8. Any company has a right to shut down their forum if they choose. If I was Roger Nichols I would have shut it down too. Why in the world should a company let people come to their forum and trash it and leave it there? Taking it down is smart - not cowardice.

9. Fact: If you actually want an answer to some of your questions you have a better chance of getting one by actually asking those involved. But then again, we all don't want real answers do we?

10. Fact: A lot of people do want presets. If you can't imagine that, than I guess you are not in touch with that group of people. Look at the vast numbers of presets in many plug-ins. Do you think companies put them in for kicks or because that is what users want?

11. Facts: A lot of people do still buy software in actual stores. A lot of people actually like to receive something concrete with their purchase (i.e. a box, a disk). A lot of people like to purchase items from one dealer with whom they have a relationship. If that is not you - fine. That doesn't mean these other people do not exist or should be ignored.

These are facts. You can choose to believe them or not. That doesn't change the reality. It is easy to think everything and everyone is as it seems on the Internet. The truth is, what is said on the SOS, OSX Audio, KVR, etc. forums is not indicative of what every person thinks or feels or needs.

This is all so interesting. Elemental Audio was a great company, who treated their users great in many ways. That has been said so many times on many forums. But as soon as they enter a partnership where you cannot see the immediate value to yourself you bad mouth them, wish them ill, call them liars, etc. Talk about turncoats. What happened to the benefit of the doubt?

You all act as though EA killed your mother. How are you hurt by this ... really? You will still receive support. You will still receive the next version for free. You will be able to move to the Roger Nichols versions for a minimal price. The prices are higher, but so what? You don't have to buy your products again, so the price jump doesn't really affect you.

You talk about what this whole fiasco should teach companies. Maybe one of the things it will teach companies is that it doesn't matter how good you treat your customers they will shoot you down as soon as you do something that is not immediately of value to them.

How has Elemental Audio shafted us in the past? Did they make us pay for updates to move to new operating systems just to keep our products working? Nope. Did they charge for any updates at all? Nope - not even when they included new features. Did they ignore support requests or take weeks to respond? Nope. Did they leave long standing bugs in their software, taking forever to fix them? Nope.

And yet you string them up for the fire.

Shame on you.

Quote Shaun Dark:

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To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.

The fact that you prefer to have a hard copy is not relevent to the point I'm making. Also Sugababes tracks are excellent when compared to some of the tripe that was around in the early 90s and late 80s.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy?
No,actually found it on vinyl

If you found it on vinyl then what point were you originally trying to make with that comment??

Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.
And how much would that cost to firms?

How should I know that's a stupid question. It's plainly obvious that some measures have to be taken because my generation are now in the habit of stealing intellectual properties. This is not a habit that will be easily broken.

And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.
Quite simple if you think about it.
If two people or two thousand people do the same thing who would have the better profit margin plus more of a chance getting a job

There have always been alot of people trying to make their way in music, the market has always been saturated. Thats not the problem.

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

Isn't it spelt metaphor?Don't you mean analogy(Your credibilty is sinking fast)?To answer your analogy,we don't employ anybody,and it's the company's responsibilty to protect themselves.
Thank you for making it so simple that I could grasp it

Very clever well done. I don't think my misspellings are as bad as your illegible sentence structures.

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?
No,just lateral thinking again but thought your brilliance would have grasped it.
Your link isn't up btw so that should answer your question.

What link? Here's a link to my latest effort you smug c**t

http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling
No,no mispelt words but you seem to understand everything I say.Admittedly English isn't my forte but neither is yours.
We are talking about music and it's and art.The most talented people understand things in their own language.
You feel that being articulate is proof of your intelligence.
Would you like me to teach you how to pronounce those Greek words properly that you most definitely get wrong when using them in English.Quite funny!
What have I learnt from you?Nothing.
Why do I waste my time?Like a bit of banter I suppose.
Round three

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From your first post you started on a very negative note and I can't stand smart asses, especially if they're not actually smart

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Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me

Quote Music Manic:

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Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me

---

Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Quote Music Manic:

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To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.

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I don't really want to join in with the argument here (well, not until you kiss and make up anyway) but I am not sure I reaaly agree with that.

Most mainstream music has never been that great (with many exceptions).

Right now I think there is more great music around than I can ever remember and I buy more CDs than I did (records) 20 years ago.

However, it is not easy to find it. If I had to make do with the music I come into contact with through the mainstream media and record shops I would buy very few. I buy less than 5% of my CDs over the counter (although HMV made a big improvement when they took away all the music I really don't like and put it in it's own section called 'Urban' )

My personal take on this is that a big chunk of the lost sales reproted by the majors is down to the content they are turning out as much as piracy (though they would suggest otherwise).

I don't think this is the case in Dance. Leaving aside the crap that passes as dance in the mainstream the quality of output from the importnat dance lables is very high.

I really don't like copied music but this does not stop people I know from handing me copied CDs on a very regularly basis which I politely ask them not to do, though that is a tricky one.

The one exception is material that has been deleted. Much great dance material comes out on very small runs with no likelyhood of a reprint. I have copied such CDs for friends on (a few) occasions though if it is something I want I will track it down from the web or specialist shops.

I have no interest in downloads and will not until they are lossless CD quality.

Quote LittleM:

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3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

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The price of the Firium/Eqium bundle was a total of $169. I checked that figure with EA before updating my Firium Eqium review and posting it on this forum in the user reports section on 1/03/06.

Yesterday, the price on the RND site was $349 FOR EACH Plug-in. There was no mention of a reduction for bundles.

Therefore it follows that 349 x 2 = $698 That is OVER 400%.

I don’t have the time or inclination to dissect your other so called ‘facts’.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Little M, you appear to be brand new to this forum, your only two posts to date being above. Your profile says nothing about you or where you are save that you joined us on "01/01/70 01:00 AM", which I assume to mean some time this afternoon.

You appear to have an agenda to argue the EA/Roger Nichols corner. OK, debate is healthy and you are welcome to disagree.

But I think you owe it to all of us to explain who you are and what your agenda is. Otherwise I will probably not be alone in concluding you are just trolling for the sake of it. And that will just devalue any good points you might be making here.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote LittleM:

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These are facts...

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With 1 post to your name you obviously registered under a pseudonym specifically to argue on this topic, and people will draw their own conclusions from that.

Anyway, you clearly like make a point by spouting what you call 'facts' and yet most of those you choose start with the line "Some people..." or "Most people..." or "A lot of people..." It looks impressive, but as any fule kno blanket assertions like this are meaningless unless backed up by some data.

Of your 'facts' that don't start in the unhelpful manner above I'm sure many of us would be interested in your reference for this one:
Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.'
Again, it's meaningless without qualification - like, who are you and where are the figures?

I don't wholly disagree with some of your text and I agree that some of the reaction has been a bit over-emotional, but you have the benefit of joining this discussion AFTER two critical things have happened and AFTER the rest of us first started discussing this issue:
1) Yesterday Elemental Audio published a generic email explaining some (not all) of the information we lacked
2) The new price has dropped by $100 since yesterday!

If we'd had these two pieces of information, then this thread would have been accordingly a bit different. So yes - the situation looks a bit better than it did on Saturday, but even so, many of us (investors don't forget) are angry and disturbed by the manner in which this transition was handled, and I suspect it is this 'fact' that has stirred up the hornets' nest more than any other.

Quote Shaun Dark:

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Quote Music Manic:

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Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me

---

Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married

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Haha,nice one.
I apologise if I came across as rude but this is the way that people are treated in music world,and I answer through other peoples views to keep it real.
Engineers can be the most viscious tongued people you can meet,and A&R can make you want to slit your wrists,but it goes with the territory.

When I talk about you or I being special,I'm not speaking from my point of view but these senseless people who know nothing about music and think our talents can be pushed to one side with no respect.

I deeply respect you having out with me and being honest.

You'll have to get down on one knee if you want me to say yes.

Btw is c**t an anagram of cute?

Catch you later buddy and I'll try and make myself clearer next time.
I can be a PITA sometime but intentions are genuine and honourable.Ask Hugh!

Quote Tim Rainey:

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Maybe this is the sort of thing they mean by ‘improved usability’?



From his site at: http://www.rndigital.com/index.html

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Is it just my vivid imagination, or has it occurred to anyone else that those bizarre 'graph-paper' Bitchin-izer plugin interfaces might be a hoax or even someone hacking into the Roger Nichols web site.

Try as I might, I simply find it hard to believe that any professional audio engineer could put his name to such 'my first GUI' designs. But then of course I could be totally wrong, and find that everyone else finds them a breath of fresh air.

So, is it me, or is that graphic interface a joke?


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote Music Manic:

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Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married

---

Haha,nice one.
I apologise if I came across as rude but this is the way that people are treated in music world,and I answer through other peoples views to keep it real.
Engineers can be the most viscious tongued people you can meet,and A&R can make you want to slit your wrists,but it goes with the territory.

When I talk about you or I being special,I'm not speaking from my point of view but these senseless people who know nothing about music and think our talents can be pushed to one side with no respect.

I deeply respect you having out with me and being honest.

You'll have to get down on one knee if you want me to say yes.

Btw is c**t an anagram of cute?

Catch you later buddy and I'll try and make myself clearer next time.
I can be a PITA sometime but intentions are genuine and honourable.Ask Hugh!

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Fair enough mate we'll leave it there

Good fight

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Do you think LittleM is Mr. Nichols himself? The moniker LittleM would reflect his interest in aliens and the writing style is similar to the style in the current SOS.

Quote Noiseflaw:

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I Guess You do not use Elemental audio stuff Eh?

Quote Feefer:

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Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.

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Where did you get that idea from I think 'most' customers are fully prepared to pay companies a reasonable 'profit'. It is those that use and create cracks who are completely oblivious to the concept of 'Fair Trade', they are ignorant. lazy and imho suck the life from the affluent and democratic society's they enjoy living in.

Quote Feefer:

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Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.

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'Parasitized'
is an interesting way of describing sincere customers who bought a Plugin for the price that was being charged for it - I guess you think that all customers must apply some kind of 'predictive' foresight into their consumerism - they must think 'hmmm.... this plugin is unreasonably cheap for how good it is let me offer to pay more, much more.

What an idiotic thing to say. I as a customer have no interest in 'speculating' whether a company may go out of business because they are selling their plugs too cheap, my role is to pay what I am asked.

You are 'blaming' the customers for the demise of EAU (that is funny)

Quote Feefer:

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You all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.

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You think that Roger Tickles has the has the right idea about the 'value' of these plugs do you, The true 'value' of the plugs and company are hanging by a very thin thread at the moment and that is in NO WAY down to legitimate, sincere, paying cusomers.

Quote Feefer:

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So shut up and quit yer bitchin

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So you are telling us to all throw away our 'Bitchinizers' now are you, phew thanks for that, 'cos for a moment their I thought that Mr Roger Tickles had hired you as his Chief PR Guru.

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Sorry, no time to respond on a point-by-point basis, but please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't blame the customers: it should be clear I'm placing blame on incompetent business practices of EA.

Perhaps it was a bit too confusing for you, since I addressed legit customers and those who used cracked copies in the same post. You apparently missed the distinction I made by using the terms "consumer" vs "customer". Someone who uses a cracked copy IS a consumer, but shouldn't be considered as a "customer", since they didn't pay for it.

Quibble all you want, but the bottom line is this: EA relinquished control of some of their assets to someone else. Hopefully the entire entity doesn't go under, due to all of the public lynching/bashing, as then prior purchasers will have NO future support (including porting to Intel, or the next major OS update after to OS X 10.5, etc).

Then those of you who bought insurance can try filing a claim with your insurance company, and good luck trying to get payment because the title is no longer supported because you helped kill the enterprise. Friggin' geniuses.

Chris

Quote Martin Walker:

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Try as I might, I simply find it hard to believe that any professional audio engineer could put his name to such 'my first GUI' designs. So, is it me, or is that graphic interface a joke?

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What definitely isn't a joke is Roger Nichols' choice of logo for Dynam-izer (used to be Neodynium) that features an aircraft dropping bombs!

Does he really think that's a clever marketing idea in this (or any other) age of ceaseless global wars, and WTF does images of terrifying military hardware have to do with professional audio products?

Quote James Lehmann:

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"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?

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jeezus, did you forget about the little physical object known as a dongle? Oh, yeah....

Chris

Quote UnderTow:

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Again assumption on your part. Do you have access to EA's financial details? If not, whence comes the arrogance of bitching to everyone when having no idea what you are talking about? (Hey, maybe you can write articles with Mr Nichols).

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Your rant (which I excerpted) makes my point entirely: all of you forum clowns have NO idea what's going on behind the scenes, and have no business ranting and raving based on YOUR assumptions, since it's all based on assumptions.

Stop to think a moment of alternatives instead of jumping to major conclusions.... Unless you're EA or RN, then you don't know the details as to why this occurred. So quit assuming the 'evil nefarious' motives, or at least admit them as being assumptions. The whining comes off as downright pathetic, the words of short-sided whiners...

Chris

Quote Feefer:

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Quote James Lehmann:

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"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?

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jeezus, did you forget about the little physical object known as a dongle? Oh, yeah....

Chris

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Dongles are the work of the Devil - allowing them to breed safely in cardboard boxes is a crime in itself.

No, "my first GUI" has been up there for weeks or months. If it's a joke, it's a lousy one and shows a total lack of professionalism in terms of the kind of website a proper business should be running (quite apart from what conclusions half the human race might draw from the name of the product).

Chris/Feefer: unless you know any inside facts, which I doubt, I can assure you I am wholly within my professional comfort zone in writing what follows.

Partly out of professional interest in my former life (liquidating bankrupt businesses), I've spent a few hours today researching this and checking out reactions in other forums. I would say the overwhelming body of opinion (99%) is hostile with - at the very least - a sizeable proportion of those people resolving to have nothing to do with the EA products, or indeed any Nichols products, ever again. Someone mentioned the Gerald Ratner precedent earlier, and this looks like another textbook study of how to ruin a business (or possibly two businesses) overnight through hubris.

If this is a "partnership" between EA and Nichols, why is the EA website reduced to 2 pages - one a tombstone linking to Nichols and one a legacy support relic? There's not even a "who are we" page any more. If that's not a sell-out or takeover I don't know what is.

I don't blame the EA guys if they took the money and ran. If they gave the business away for nothing (other than in greatly distressed circumstances) then they really are dumb.

Nichols' handling of the whole episode simply proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that as a public relations director of a corporate entity, he's - er - probably a good sound engineer. Whether he bought it or was given it, his handling of the matter has probably devalued it to almost zero in 48 hours flat.

He can't be unaware of the furore (he's taken down his own forums); he seems to have knocked $100 off the price overnight in a kneejerk reaction quite clearly unrelated to any form of business strategy that I ever studied (including one or two Harvard Business School courses). Maybe he's busy at AES in Paris?

When in a hole stop digging. He needs to make a statement, and try to reassure his existing (and hoped-for future) user base. That might even include using words like "sorry" and "cock-up". It's his only hope at this stage. Trying to brazen it out, or defend it as a good thing, in the face of a unanimously hostile reaction from customers will just add insult to injury. As will continued silence.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (22/05/06 06:40 PM)

Quote James Lehmann:

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What definitely isn't a joke is Roger Nichols' choice of logo for Dynam-izer (used to be Neodynium) that features an aircraft dropping bombs!

Does he really think that's a clever marketing idea in this (or any other) age of ceaseless global wars, and WTF does images of terrifying military hardware have to do with professional audio products?

---

So crazy.
Looks like a cheap game software.

I'm ready to throw my InspectorXL to trash bin.

--------------------
Hide
http://house-eey.com/ | MySpace

Quote LittleM:

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Do you just choose to only read and see what you want?

1. Fact: Elemental Audio did not sell their products or their company:
"Elemental Audio has entered into a partnership with Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"
"Elemental Audio will continue to exist as a separate entity"
"Elemental Audio will ... continue to develop audio related products"

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"All Elemental Audio products are now exclusively licensed and distributed by Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"

I think that is what worries people most.

Quote:

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2. It is interesting to see posts that on one hand talk about how great the company is, but then see those that devolve into saying the company was poorly run and went out of business. Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.' I've seen posts speculating that EA was offered $50k or some similar amount for all of their products - that is laughable at best.

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Agreed.

Quote:

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3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

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The price dropped 100$ today. This morning it was still $349
so you must view posts in light of that. The bitching and moaning does seem to help though ...

Quote:

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4. Fact: Some people do prefer iLoks. The fact that you choose to see this as a lie shows that you are out of touch with some of Elemental Audio's customer base, *not* that Elemental Audio is lying. An iLok is not only a protection device,

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It is NOT a protection device despite what the company might be using as their marketing talk towards plugin developers. But yes, some people actually like these things. Syncrosoft, for instance, does a much better job of actually protecting software.

Quote:

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it also provides an easy way to move authorizations around. Some of us actually need and desire this. Your lack of need or desire does not make the needs of others a figment of Elemental Audio's imagination.

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Entirely agreed. Even on Internet forums, many people request iLoks for stuff. I think they are insane but that is a different thing than claiming that EAS is lying.

Quote:

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5. Fact: Many people actually like printed documentation and boxed software, myself included. Real printed documentation - not the kind I have to print out and put in a binder myself.

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True although I am against it because of enviromental issues.

Quote:

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6. Fact: Elemental Audio has stated that they will continue to provide support to customers for the foreseeable future. Despite this you all keep grumbling over the fact that you will no longer receive support - that you have been abandoned.

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Again, alot of comments were made before EAS mailed customers with more info. It would have been smart for RND and EAS to coordinate this better.

Anyway, "foreseeable future" doesn't really say much. I can understand if customers are not entirely reassured yet.

Quote:

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7. The pictures taken from Roger Nichols web site are obviously mock-ups. Note the fact that it is on quad-ruled graph paper - do you really think anyone would make a plug-in GUI with a background of quad-ruled graph paper? But, it's easier to speculate and condemn than to actually *ask* and find out the true answer - that would put an end to all the fun.

---

Some of the comments are indeed about those pics but many comments are about the "new" RND versions of the EAS plugins.

Quote:

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8. Any company has a right to shut down their forum if they choose. If I was Roger Nichols I would have shut it down too. Why in the world should a company let people come to their forum and trash it and leave it there? Taking it down is smart - not cowardice.

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Partly agreed. They could also actually respond to the comments in a way similar to the EAS mailout. I would call this bad PR planning and management like the late mailout from EAS.

Quote:

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9. Fact: If you actually want an answer to some of your questions you have a better chance of getting one by actually asking those involved. But then again, we all don't want real answers do we?

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True.

Quote:

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10. Fact: A lot of people do want presets. If you can't imagine that, than I guess you are not in touch with that group of people. Look at the vast numbers of presets in many plug-ins. Do you think companies put them in for kicks or because that is what users want?

---

I have feeling that alot of people that do want presets are not so likely to want to pay the new prices. I could be wrong of course ...

Quote:

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11. Facts: A lot of people do still buy software in actual stores. A lot of people actually like to receive something concrete with their purchase (i.e. a box, a disk). A lot of people like to purchase items from one dealer with whom they have a relationship. If that is not you - fine. That doesn't mean these other people do not exist or should be ignored.

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Partly agreed.

Quote:

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These are facts. You can choose to believe them or not. That doesn't change the reality. It is easy to think everything and everyone is as it seems on the Internet. The truth is, what is said on the SOS, OSX Audio, KVR, etc. forums is not indicative of what every person thinks or feels or needs.

---

There is an OVERWHELMING amount of negative reactions to this new situation on EVERY forum. More so than I have seen in any other buy out or whatever. I would say that that IS indicative of the mood of EAS customers.

The comment of "you can choose to believe ..." applies to you too.

Quote:

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This is all so interesting. Elemental Audio was a great company, who treated their users great in many ways. That has been said so many times on many forums. But as soon as they enter a partnership where you cannot see the immediate value to yourself you bad mouth them, wish them ill, call them liars, etc. Talk about turncoats. What happened to the benefit of the doubt?

---

Again I would attribute most of this to very bad PR about the change. And even with info in the EAS email, people are not sure how this will all pan out in the future and upgrades will need an iLok. This is compounded by the recent discount offer. I understand the outrage.

Quote:

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You talk about what this whole fiasco should teach companies. Maybe one of the things it will teach companies is that it doesn't matter how good you treat your customers they will shoot you down as soon as you do something that is not immediately of value to them.

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Lack of good communication is not a good way to treat customers. Again, the comment of "you can choose to believe ..." applies to you too as you also have no idea where this will all end up.

Quote:

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How has Elemental Audio shafted us in the past? Did they make us pay for updates to move to new operating systems just to keep our products working? Nope. Did they charge for any updates at all? Nope - not even when they included new features.

---

People don't know what is going to happen with the new deal nor do you. I understand if people are a bit worried and/or angry.

Again, the overwhelming majority of comments are negative. You can choose to ignore that and assume that everyone that hasn't posted is more than happy about the change but that isn't any better or any more realistic than what you accuse others of.

UnderTow

Hi folks,

Yes I agree Martin, that Gui is so bad it must either be a joke or a hack! Possibly just a mock up design but the accompanying blurb doesn't seem to back that up.

Anyway, setting aside the name changes and price hikes, how does all this affect SOS as a magazine (and me as a regular reader)? I know Roger's articles for SOS aren't reviews but regardless, he is a writer for the magazine and at some point, his plugins will be called up for a review. This has highly questionable connotations IMHO. And now that one of the SOS contributers has his own plugin company what impact will that have on reviews from other magazines?

Thanks.

Edited by franjipane (22/05/06 06:46 PM)

Hey, I agree. But I was just pointing out the little point you overlooked about why there's a need for physical distribution (which adds to the hassle factor and costs).

I hate dongles, and even moreso, the draconian policies some software companies misguidedly use to protect their intellectual property (saying they won't replace the dongle if it is lost/stolen, etc). In fact, I've publicly stated I won't buy ANY more software that is dongle-protected.

(Dongles are not just annoying: USB dongles destabilize every Mac I've encountered, partly because of implementation of the USB standard on dongles that draws too much current from the buss, especially if the manufacturer strictly sticks to the USB protocol for ports as Apple does; bottom line is I have stability and sleep/wake problems, whether using a powered USB hub or not.)

Now it's my right as a consumer to choose to buy software with dongles or not, just as it's the right of a software company to decide to dongle-protect their IP vs. using some other method. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need any of it, as people wouldn't crack software. The world is not ideal...

Chris

Quote Feefer:

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Unless you're EA or RN, then you don't know the details as to why this occurred. So quit assuming the 'evil nefarious' motives, or at least admit them as being assumptions.

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DUH! That is more or less what I wrote in response to YOUR post.

UnderTow

Quote franjipane:

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Yes I agree Martin, that Gui is so bad it must either be a joke or a hack! Possibly just a mock up design but the accompanying blurb doesn't seem to back that up.

---

Perhaps his alien friends designed them for him ? :-)

Quote Tim Rainey:

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Quote LittleM:

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3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

---

The price of the Firium/Eqium bundle was a total of $169. I checked that figure with EA before updating my Firium Eqium review and posting it on this forum in the user reports section on 1/03/06.

Yesterday, the price on the RND site was $349 FOR EACH Plug-in. There was no mention of a reduction for bundles.

Therefore it follows that 349 x 2 = $698 That is OVER 400%.

---

Let's compare apples with apples. And I'm talking about the price listed today ($249), which you stated earlier is 3 times as much...

Firium and Eqium were $129 individually from Elemental Audio. They are $249 individually from Roger Nichols Digital. $129 is more than half of $249, so the plug-ins do not cost twice as much based on individual prices.

If you bought the Firium and Eqium bundle from Elemental Audio for $169: The same two products will cost three times as much from Roger Nichols, yes. Then again, that is buying them individually from Roger Nichols and not as part of a bundle, so is not really comparing apples with apples. Comparing the cost of the bundle to the individual plug-ins is not a valid comparison to me when a more direct comparison (individual plug-ins to individual plug-ins) is available. It remains to be seen whether Roger Nichols Digital will offer any bundles that will equate to a lesser price.

Quote franjipane:

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...how does all this affect SOS as a magazine (and me as a regular reader)? I know Roger's articles for SOS aren't reviews but regardless, he is a writer for the magazine and at some point, his plugins will be called up for a review. This has highly questionable connotations IMHO. And now that one of the SOS contributers has his own plugin company what impact will that have on reviews from other magazines?

---

I was wondering about that. It's one thing to have a controversial-but-multiple-grammy sound engineer writing for the mag; colourful even. It's another thing to know he's a significant software provider.

How does that knowledge sit with the theory he propounds in the current issue that you don't need analogue summing boxes, you just need to know how to use software properly? It's a very short step from there to concluding the subtext is "so buy my software".

Do I believe he was not deep into negotiations with EA when he wrote his latest column? Hmmm....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

OT . . . My 2 USB dongles (Logic7 and Peak 5) are OK on my iMac . . .

Back to the ongoing story . . .

G

--------------------
PA stuff on FB

Quote Steve Hill:

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How does that knowledge sit with the theory he propounds in the current issue that you don't need analogue summing boxes, you just need to know how to use software properly? It's a very short step from there to concluding the subtext is "so buy my software".

---

Yes interesting point - although I guess he is a 'guest' columnist and it's not really too bad to have a colourful character 'preaching' to the discerning audio masses - it gets things lively.

However things have become just a bit too lively at present.

I look forward to reading Mr Nichols next article......

Quote LittleM:

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And I'm talking about the price listed today ($249)

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And you were responding to people that were NOT talking about today's prices. So you twist the subject and then claim you are right?

Quote:

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Then again, that is buying them individually from Roger Nichols and not as part of a bundle, so is not really comparing apples with apples.

---

If someone wanted to buy both plugins on friday they had to pay a certain amount. If somone wanted to buy those same plugins on saturday they had to pay another price that was more than 400% more epxensive.

The fact that RND doesn't offer the bundle isn't a valid argument. On the contrary, it shows they RND is much more greedy which is part of the point of this whole topic.

Stop twisting things to your advantage. You made the exact same misstake as you claim others were making but are not big enough to admit that some of your claims were wrong.

Quote:

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It remains to be seen whether Roger Nichols Digital will offer any bundles that will equate to a lesser price.

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Sure but on saturday and sunday, when most of the comments were made, there was no bundle from RND. You can argue as much as you want and use as much rethoric as you want but
it won't change anything about the actual price people have to pay for both plugins together. That is part of the reason people are bitching at RND.

UnderTow

Personally i find it is going to the good direction. The prices are lowered to 249$. EA will continue to develop new plugs. If he gonna do some special package deal he's back in business.

Quote Steve Hill:

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How does that knowledge sit with the theory he propounds in the current issue that you don't need analogue summing boxes, you just need to know how to use software properly?

---

Interestingly enough, he doesn't actually talk about analogue vs digital summing. He talks about analogue and digital mixing/clipping which isn't exactly the same thing. He seems to have missunderstood the question.

Mr Nichols went off on a tangent in answering two of the questions that he was asked. (I didn't read the microphone answer yet so I have no idea how he treated that question).

UnderTow

For anyone that didn't receive it, this is the email we all got from Elemental Audio offering cheap plug-ins only FOUR WEEKS before they announced the sell-out to Roger Nichols Digital.

"Ill-timed" they say; "Uncannily prescient" I say.

The gist of it is: "Quick - last chance to buy our soon-to-be-obsolete plug-ins at a reduced rate as we've sold out and are shutting up shop in four weeks (although we're not going to tell you that yet)!"

[On a side-note - as an EA customer who already invested in their whole plug-in suite, this 'special offer' contained no reward at all for me, and yet surely I'm a gold-star customer? It would be a bit like an Airline saying "Our best customers are not those with the most Air Miles but the ones with less than 50,000 so we're giving this group a one-time bonus of 20,000".]


From : Elemental Audio
Sent : Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:45 AM
To : jameslehmann@hotmail.com
Subject : We're showing our customer appreciation

Hello,

Do you know how much we appreciate having you as a customer? We sure hope so. If you don't already know how much we appreciate you, we aim to show you.

====================================
Any plug-in, 1 low price:
====================================
http://www.elementalaudio.com/cgi-bin/arp3/arp3-t.pl?l=13&c=23756


In the past, we've tried to show you how important you are to us by:

(1) Providing you with great products at fair prices,
(2) Resolving any issues with our products as swiftly as possible,
(3) Addressing your inquiries in a timely manner,
(4) Offering you great discounts on newly released products, and
(5) Giving full consideration to your ideas and suggestions

Right now, because of your requests, we're also showing you how important you are to us in an additional way - by giving you the opportunity to purchase the Elemental Audio plug-in of your choice for one low price. If you have been waiting for the opportunity to enlarge your plug-in collection, this is the time. The value of this offer is dependent on you and the product you choose.

====================================
Select your plug-in now:
====================================
http://www.elementalaudio.com/cgi-bin/arp3/arp3-t.pl?l=13&c=23756


Our long time customers know that we do not offer specials like this very often; in fact, this is a first. We've taken note of requests that existing customers be allowed to purchase additional products at a discount. You spoke, we listened and took action, and you reap the benefit.

====================================
Access your reduced pricing:
====================================
http://www.elementalaudio.com/cgi-bin/arp3/arp3-t.pl?l=13&c=23756


If you want to receive your savings, we encourage you to complete your purchase as soon as possible. We cannot guarantee that this offer will remain available or be repeated. So, go on and get that Elemental Audio plug-in you've had in mind, at the customer price you deserve.

This is just one more way we are showing you how much we appreciate your
support, kind words, and referrals. We will continue to look for ways to express our appreciation and to improve our service to you.

As always, we are ready to receive your feedback. If you have comments at any time, please write to let us know. As this offer indicates - we pay close attention to your suggestions.


** Special Notes **
Will expire, but expiration date has not yet been determined. This Customer Appreciation special allows you to purchase one (1) Elemental Audio plug-in at a reduced price. You must use the links in this message to make your purchase. If you have questions, please contact < cs@elementalaudio.com >.


Thank you, from all of us -

Your Elemental Audio Systems Team

------------------------------------
Customer Service
cs@elementalaudio.com

Elemental Audio Systems
http://www.elementalaudio.com

It'll probably all get sorted in the end... but it does confirm my 'attitude' towards software (as against hardware). I only really expect to get about 3 years worth of work out of any of these packages, assuming they all work well enough not to need updating every month for reliability issues , etc.

When it's upgrade-the-computer time I'll hope that I'll be able to port everything across, but I don't necessarily assume that this is always going to be possible- in general I don't buy the really expensive stuff (you may as well buy hardware at those prices) and i treat the software as exactly what it is- a 'rental license' for use of certain tools that I treat far more as temporary items than permanent residents of the studio, and in today's world you can't always be sure the company will still be there to support the product, when you want to upgrade your system. I still use a SCI Prophet VS synth, and the company died 20 years or so ago- doesn't mean the synth isn't useful !

It's still your hardware(ie your computer) that makes the software work- and I'd say it's not necessarily the software company's responsibility to 'exist' forever, if you choose to change or upgrade the hardware for which you bought the software. It'll work, regardless of the existence of the company (and you keep copies), for as long as you use your current computer, so there's no real problem, as long as you keep the computer... which I tend to do. I still have my old G3, as a 'closed' system, purely to access the old OS 9 plug-ins on it, (not that it happens much!) I'll probably keep my current G5, too, if only as a Logic node or VSL sample playback machine... and to use my 'proper' (as against a Nichols version) EA plug-ins!

So although I think it's a shame that EA's elegant interface seems to be going all Playstation, and the chances are that in 3 years time I won't be able to run Neodynium on my new G6(or G7), (if EA/Nichols don't manage to keep their support running), it's not the end of the world... by then I'm sure there'll be better equivalents I can get into, and it's up to me to use the software I have now, to earn the cash to buy the newer stuff, in the future.

Software is generally relatively cheap and works pretty well- but if you want the kind of 'absolute' ownership of tools that are going to be yours forever, the choice really has to be hardware.

best

tomafd

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

just for perspective.

I have an entirely different view on a LOT of things from James Lehmann.

iLok. I'm generally in favour.

Prequel discount., I think there's a misunderstanding here.... it's equally likely that this was a desperate effort to raise some much needed cashflow... I'm NOT saying that it was, just that it's equally likely as james rather cynical view.



there's a lot of rather over emotional spouting of horse dung about the entire subject , by many on all sides.

I lament the day they felt it necessary to yield to Mr Nichol's offer, whatever it was...

but I'm certainly not about to bang on bitterly and repeatedly about the things about this situation which have no power to change , that i happen not to like much....

and having looked at the current "New" GUI shots... I add that they're not significantly different barring the RND additions.


In addition, I'd add that the acquisition By Roger Nichols is unlikely to have the slightest effect on the standards of review set by SOS, which would never kow tow it's standards or opinion just because someone writes a column for them... or advertises with them, or whatever.,... and as these plug ins have all (I think) been covered already, they are IMHO (NOTE I'm not privy to any inside editorial info, I'm just expressing my opinion, so i may well be utterly wrong) unlikely to get a revisit review unless they undergo significant operational redesign...

or at least that's the way the cookie has generally crumbled in the past.

Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

The guy I feel for - if he exists - is the one who missed out buying at $129 on Friday, paid $349 on Saturday or Sunday, only to find he could have bought at $249 on Monday.

I mean come on, if you made a living writing Whitehall farces you could not have scripted this. This is supposed to make us feel all warm and cuddly about doing business with them in future, right? Or am I misreading the situation?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I entirely agree Steve.,...

I'm not about to try and make ANYONE feel warm and cuddly, ( bar the mrs... )

I don't like it, I don't like it one bit.... I just thought some people might be foaming at the mouth a little too much...

didn't Yes Primeminister have an episode like this??

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Phew! Short posts again. my computer's scroll batteries have discharged!

G

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PA stuff on FB

Quote LittleM:

---

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

Quote LittleM:

---

3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

---

The price of the Firium/Eqium bundle was a total of $169. I checked that figure with EA before updating my Firium Eqium review and posting it on this forum in the user reports section on 1/03/06.

Yesterday, the price on the RND site was $349 FOR EACH Plug-in. There was no mention of a reduction for bundles.

Therefore it follows that 349 x 2 = $698 That is OVER 400%.

---

Let's compare apples with apples. And I'm talking about the price listed today ($249), which you stated earlier is 3 times as much...

Firium and Eqium were $129 individually from Elemental Audio. They are $249 individually from Roger Nichols Digital. $129 is more than half of $249, so the plug-ins do not cost twice as much based on individual prices.

If you bought the Firium and Eqium bundle from Elemental Audio for $169: The same two products will cost three times as much from Roger Nichols, yes. Then again, that is buying them individually from Roger Nichols and not as part of a bundle, so is not really comparing apples with apples. Comparing the cost of the bundle to the individual plug-ins is not a valid comparison to me when a more direct comparison (individual plug-ins to individual plug-ins) is available. It remains to be seen whether Roger Nichols Digital will offer any bundles that will equate to a lesser price.

---

I see Under Tow has responded but, since you addressed your post to me, I will also respond:

It is quite obvious that for years EA had always priced Firium/Eqium to sell as a pair. No one in their right mind would pay $129 individually when the pair was $169.

From the start, RND has chosen to vastly inflate the prices and market the plug-ins individually.

The only way people can compare real world prices is to take what was previously available BEFORE the EA/RND union and what is available NOW.

Therefore I stand by my original assertion that the price increase was OVER 400%

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Max, James makes the very valid point that people who’d bought ALL EA plug-ins were not rewarded at all.

I tend to agree with James too, EA were obviously trying to make as much money as possible before the union… I’m not saying that is a good or bad thing, but it certainly is a strong possibility and nothing to do with cynicism.

Lots of people in the same position would make every effort to maximise their return; to claim otherwise is to deny the reality of the nature of business.

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com