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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301346 - 23/05/06 05:45 AM
One more thing...

Quote:

but I'm certainly not about to bang on bitterly and repeatedly about the things about this situation which have no power to change , that i happen not to like much....




Max, it would appear that to ‘bang on bitterly’ as you put it, has actually bought about a rethink by RND and a substantial price reduction so your statement that that there is ‘no power to change’ is at odds with reality.

Apathy never got anyone anywhere.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: tomafd]
      #301348 - 23/05/06 05:56 AM
Quote tomafd:

...it does confirm my 'attitude' towards software (as against hardware). I only really expect to get about 3 years worth of work out of any of these packages, assuming they all work well enough not to need updating every month for reliability issues , etc....Software is generally relatively cheap and works pretty well- but if you want the kind of 'absolute' ownership of tools that are going to be yours forever, the choice really has to be hardware.



You know what - this latest episode has convinced me you are absolutely right.

Let's just make a quick round up of how much I've spent on broken music software over the last few years:

Hyperprism $400 - great plug-ins but flaky and never upgraded to work on OS-X, broken
Waves $800 - enough has been said on this, I'm bailing on their draconian and expensive updates, not broken yet but will be one day as I won't buy WUP and an iLok
Elemental Audio $500 - see above, not broken yet but will be one day as I won't buy an iLok
Logic 4.7 $600 - broke (for those with ADB computers) with the upgrade to USB dongles, was cheaper for me to buy a new license!
SoundDiver $200 - broken since the Apple take-over of Emagic
I'm sure there's more...
(Credit where it is due - still working fine so far: NI Pro-53, Metric Halo ChannelStrip, U-He Zebra)

Total = $2500

That's at least $2500 down the drain spent on perfectly good tools that go out of date after a few years! All I ever expect is that these tools are updated to work on current operating systems, and I don't mind paying reasonable upgrade costs for that either.

Compare that with the same amount I spent on, say, my Ensoniq ESQ-1 in 1988 which still works perfectly and has given me 18 years of outstanding musical service (without the need for upgrades although there were some optional ones) both onstage and in the studio (even thought the company went under years ago).

$2500 invested in decent hardware back in 1990 looks like a much better bet in the light of all this nonsense; it's now apparent that the whole plug-in circus is rotten to the core and a waste of my time and money.

I'm entirely rethinking the way I work in my studio as from today...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301370 - 23/05/06 08:25 AM
Agreed. I'm a Waves refusenik (for the same reasons, plus some personal political issues), but have many similar stories including a whole load of money spent over the years on PC stuff, and then the agonising decision to dump the lot (in order to remain with Logic) when Apple bought Emagic.

I too just bought a whole new Logic licence to move from PC to Mac because it was just too much trouble trying to do it any other way and I put a reasonable value on my own time as well. (If I'd had the grief one of our number had recently with 6 hours of call centre grief to get Waves authorised I think I'd have billed them at my normal studio rates!)

I have several bits of hardware dating back to the 60s and 70s which work well, get serviced if required, and will probably be good for a few more decades yet.

And yet, and yet... I've just bought the full version of Melodyne because there's no hardware equivalent out there! But I'm realistic, I know it may not work in a few years. I'm just "renting" it.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301408 - 23/05/06 09:48 AM
If people treated computers as appliances rather than expecting them to keep up with every new advance then they would last much longer. I fired up Voyetra's Sequencer Plus the other day and I was surprised to find out how easy it was to navigate and how fast it was to use. They really made the most of a plain old alpha-numeric display so you don't notice the lack of graphics at all. The timing was also solid. I don't use Midi much nowadays but I'm thinking of going back to SP if I ever need to use Midi again. The full version is available free from the Voyetra website and it will run on anything from an original IBM PC onwards.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Perrett]
      #301418 - 23/05/06 09:56 AM
I still love the Fairlight's RS sequencer... I've just downloaded the Voyetra SP program. Will love to give this a go later

Thanks!

P


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #301486 - 23/05/06 11:40 AM
Quote Tim Rainey:

Max, James makes the very valid point that people who’d bought ALL EA plug-ins were not rewarded at all.




where exactly in all the tenets of profitable business practice does it state "thou shalt reward those who aren't going to spend any more money with you"

?????

what the hell gives a customer the RIGHT to EXPECT a reward??



note, i HAVE ALL their plug ins... have doe for ages.....

that lack of extra value reward doesn't bother me in the slightest..


a piss poor analogy might go like this....

if you buy 2 cars from Ford, do you expect that they'll give you free servicing and a heavy discount on your next vehicle.... just because your last two were Fords??

and ....

the iLok thing.

stating you'll no longer buy Fords because they use a key to lock it and start it.....

.

The whole Waves bashing I'll go along with , I despise their practices and pricing etc.... and i don't actually rate their plug ins that highly anyway....

I'm just trying to get across how slightly silly/rabid some of this is coming out.....

and I entirely disagree about the earlier discount offer.
Yes it's likely that they were indeed trying to raise as much cash as possible...

but absolutely nothing in their entire previous history indicates anything like the underhanded agenda you and James propose.... so I submit that my interpretation, of it being a desperate bid to raise income , and maybe to avoid the necessity of accepting the RND offer , is equally, if not more, likely....

think about it....

it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it..

and I'd add that the pricing is NOT what i was referring to , that we had no power to change... it's the iLok and hardcopy manuals etc that I was on about....

the price was fair game, and i never intentionally implied otherwise.

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301497 - 23/05/06 11:52 AM
Quote Max The Mac:

it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it..




Because it gets a response. Like a quick u-turn on the new prices?

Because it marks people's cards. So when Rupert Murdoch (say) takes over Voxengo (say) he is forewarned that the hearts, minds and wallets of the customer base may not follow.

The internet is a wonderful thing. The customers (not only in this forum but also all the others - the KVR one is a hoot) have all trashed this deal in 48 hours whatever the good (?) intentions of the principal players.

It's real people power. Enjoy it and use it!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301524 - 23/05/06 12:20 PM
if Nichols is not fired immediately from SOS i will be cancelling my subscription. this is the most shameful and despicable move ever seen in the history of software development.


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301532 - 23/05/06 12:27 PM
that's over-reacting a tad isn;t it??

I mean, come on, it's nothing like as despicable as Apple's Abandonment of the Logic-PC users a couple of years ago.

although one does wonder if SOS may be paying too much for his "articles" if he can afford to do this..... ???

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Dunewar



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301555 - 23/05/06 01:06 PM
Well, you can't deny that every article he writes creates quite a stirr on these forums. He's most certainly not afraid of controversy...
And it makes for an interesting read, and isn't that what sound-on-sound tries to do? Give you interesting articles?

--------------------
"Do not fear mistakes. There are none."
Miles Davis


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Dunewar]
      #301556 - 23/05/06 01:09 PM
Quote Dunewar:

Well, you can't deny that every article he writes creates quite a stirr on these forums. He's most certainly not afraid of controversy...
And it makes for an interesting read, and isn't that what sound-on-sound tries to do? Give you interesting articles?




The articles should be interesting because they are informative and well written not because they are flawed or completely miss the point.

UnderTow


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301563 - 23/05/06 01:23 PM
Quote:

what the hell gives a customer the RIGHT to EXPECT a reward??




Max, you appear to have misinterpreted (not for the first time either) the meaning of what I wrote. FWIW I didn’t EXPECT a reward, EA SAID they were rewarding their customers. In reality, their best customers (ie those of us who own all the plug-ins) were not rewarded at all.

IF the episode was actually a REAL attempt at rewarding ALL their customers then they would have made provision for their best customers too. Off the top of my head I can think of at least two ways they could have done that.

The fact that they didn’t do anything at all shows (me) the true motivation behind the event. You can choose to see that as accusations of ‘underhand agendas’ if you wish; I call it realism.

Quote:

the iLok thing.

stating you'll no longer buy Fords because they use a key to lock it and start it.....




I don’t know what point you are trying to make Max but I have already stated (on page two of this thread) some of the reasons why I will not buy iLock/dongle ‘protected’ software.

Quote:

I'm just trying to get across how slightly silly/rabid some of this is coming out.....




That is your interpretation… in my opinion, by far the majority of posts in this thread have been anything but silly or rabid. I could say that your splatter gun/tar-everyone-with-the-same-brush comments come across as silly and slightly condescending.

Quote:

it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it..




Shirley you can’t be serious

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301645 - 23/05/06 03:22 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

1) what the hell gives a customer the RIGHT to EXPECT a reward?
2) I'm just trying to get across how slightly silly/rabid some of this is coming out...
3) it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it...
etc etc




1) I was going to write a response here but Tim said it all so neatly above that I'll just say that I concur 100% on all the points he addresses, particularly the one about neither of us implying we 'expected' a reward from EA for owning the whole plug-in suite.

2) I conceded in my earlier reply to the Roger Nichols or EA ringer (aka "LittleM") that some of the reaction (including probably my own) might have been a little 'over-emotional' but there's no smoke without fire and many good questions have been raised in this discussion, some of which have subsequently been answered and some not. Besides Max, one doesn't have to look far to find you indulging in a good old rant on this Forum, bringing to mind glasshouses & stones, pots & kettles, etc etc...

3) To say "It's all water under the bridge" seems to negate the value of even engaging in an exchange of views! We're all interested parties here - I find it valuable to hear a range of opinion on the subject, whether or not I agree with them; does this constitute "arguing about it"? Taking it a step further, one could speculate that 'rapid-reaction' discussion on Forums like this may have contributed to the lowering of the price of the RND plug-ins by $100 within 48hrs of the original announcement - isn't that a good thing?


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Reds
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301658 - 23/05/06 03:52 PM
I'm ok with i-Loks (much preferable to the old Pace HD auth system). Preferable IMO to challenge-reponse serial nos. as well - you are totally dependent on the manufacturer still being around for your new response codes then. (I had an experience with IKM once, where it took weeks of chasing to get a new code for Amplitube).

Things are a bit better now. You can protect your dongle by paying for zero downtime cover $30 p/annum. If you were to lose your serial nos. or your i-Lok got stolen - same deal I guess - you still have to approach the manufacturer and ask nicely with proof of purchase for a free replacement.


THIS from the i-Lok site>>>>>>>>>>>>
If your iLok is lost or stolen
If your iLok is lost or stolen, please understand the following:

We cannot provide you with a replacement iLok. You must purchase a new iLok if you need one.
If the iLok is covered under Zero Downtime, we can provide temporary licenses.
We cannot provide you with permanent replacement authorizations. You must contact the software vendors and work with them to receive replacement licenses. Depending on the vendors' policies, they may require documentation from you, possibly including a police report or insurance claim.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sorry - a bit OTT it may seem, but who knows where software and copy protection is going in the next ten years? I'm pretty sure my list of plugs wont look remotely like it does today, so how long is a piece of software !!! ;-)


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301661 - 23/05/06 04:01 PM
has Nichols been fired yet yes or no? i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this, either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Reds]
      #301665 - 23/05/06 04:08 PM
Quote Reds:

I'm ok with i-Loks (much preferable to the old Pace HD auth system). Preferable IMO to challenge-reponse serial nos. as well - you are totally dependent on the manufacturer still being around for your new response codes then. (I had an experience with IKM once, where it took weeks of chasing to get a new code for Amplitube).

Things are a bit better now. You can protect your dongle by paying for zero downtime cover $30 p/annum. If you were to lose your serial nos. or your i-Lok got stolen - same deal I guess - you still have to approach the manufacturer and ask nicely with proof of purchase for a free replacement.


THIS from the i-Lok site>>>>>>>>>>>>
If your iLok is lost or stolen
If your iLok is lost or stolen, please understand the following:

We cannot provide you with a replacement iLok. You must purchase a new iLok if you need one.
If the iLok is covered under Zero Downtime, we can provide temporary licenses.
We cannot provide you with permanent replacement authorizations. You must contact the software vendors and work with them to receive replacement licenses. Depending on the vendors' policies, they may require documentation from you, possibly including a police report or insurance claim.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sorry - a bit OTT it may seem, but who knows where software and copy protection is going in the next ten years? I'm pretty sure my list of plugs wont look remotely like it does today, so how long is a piece of software !!! ;-)




This again ignores the most important issue with iLok: It does not protect the software from crackers. It also ignores all the problems that people have with iLok drivers.

Instead of getting an iLok, one could get a USB storage device that has all one's keys and serial numbers + anything else one needs to carry arround. The advantages of this is that it is only a backup or a copy and if lost, isn't a big issue.

UnderTow


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301671 - 23/05/06 04:21 PM
Bye bye Gelled Fringe.

it was moderately nice knowing you.


SOS has never, bowed to any sort of blackmail whatsoever.

I doubt they'll start now either.

see ya.

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Andi



Joined: 02/09/04
Posts: 1203
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301672 - 23/05/06 04:27 PM
Surely if the owners of EA decide to sell their rights to their products then so long as they meet their contracted responsibilities to their existing customers (moral rights would be good too) that is entirely up-to them - whomever they decide to sell to.

If Roger Nichols decides to buy the rights to some of those products then that is entirely up-to him.

One has to presume that EA sold for a reason, and may reasonably assume that it is a commercial reason. Perhaps the owners wished to retire or perhaps the business was not commercially viable. It is also reasonable to presume that the new owner wishes to develop a successful ongoing business based on the products. If he decides to give those products away, or to charge a thousand dollars each, except on a Tuesday if your name is Ian then that is up-to him, but logically he will try to fix whatever he perceives to have been wrong or improvable in the EA busienss model - so, the quick hits will be?.....how about 1) protect your product 2) rebadge/brand and 2) see what price the market will stand .

Debate as you will the usefulness of iLok, and when you launch your own software products you will be entitled to make your own choice. Ditto branding and price. For the moment, on the subject of these plugins, for whatever reason, you do still have your own choice - buy 'em or don't.

Also bear in mind that in retail, the sticker price is ALWAYS the highest possible price that the seller believes they can sell that item for conducive to maintaining their desired market. No one offers more than the sticker price - as discussed to death in the previous pages. Everyone is entitled to haggle, which in a way is what this thread and others like it have done, as a result of which the seller may decide to change pricing. It's a MARKET and the owner has every entitlement to market their goods as they see fit, however well or poorly that may be, so long as they do not break the prevalent rules of honesty and decency for their marketplace.


Roger Nichols may be a pratt, I don't know him so I don't know; but he appears to be successful enough in his chosen field to be able to "buy the company" and in a way I do envy him that, as well as respect his having the courage to do it. So far as SOS' impartiallity goes, this issue raises it's head every time a staff member or contributor is outed as a professional in the world of sound engineering, and I for one am content that the magazine appears to behave with honourable transparency (and if you want a mag written by a bunch of know-nothing amateurs there are a few alternatives to choose from).

A.

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301677 - 23/05/06 04:41 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

has Nichols been fired yet yes or no? i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this, either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER




Just because you (and about 5 million others, myself included) don't like the fact that RND has purchased the rights to distribute EA software, this does not mean that he has done anything illegal or immoral. He/they can charge anything they want for their own products. It is up to us to decide if we want to open our wallets or not. This is capitalism at its finest.

What does this have to do with Mr. Nichols' SOS articles? Like I said, he has done nothing legally wrong, he just may have made a bad business decision or two (ot three, or four...).

Agree or disagree with his SOS articles, once again, that is our choice as consumers to vote with our voices and wallets... but to come on here and make comments like:

"i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this"

and

"either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER"

Does nothing for your credibility or your cause, and only causes pushback.

And I guess I am waiting to hear the "utter injustice of it all". It is a bad business decision. This is a guy running a company who acquired another company. Nothing more, nothing less. It is up to him to choose what he charges for HIS PRODUCTS. Buy them or not, but there is no "utter injustice" going on here.

Maybe he felt that the products were underpriced compared to the competition, and that his reputation provided "value added" and he could justify the price hike... Who knows??? But the bottom line is that it doesn't really matter why. It is his decision.

Let him know how you feel in a rational manner. It looks like they have already bowed to pressure and lowered the price. This is a good thing.

Otherwise, grow up and stop being the martyr and the drama queen... "Oh the injustice of it all..."

Please don't leave us.... please???

Whatever. Give me a break!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Andi



Joined: 02/09/04
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301699 - 23/05/06 05:08 PM
Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301715 - 23/05/06 06:09 PM
max what other attempted blackmail has SOS been subjected to?


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Andi]
      #301724 - 23/05/06 06:31 PM
Quote Andi:

Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from




It's a secret!!! Shhhhh...!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301733 - 23/05/06 07:07 PM
Gell

let's see, there's the occasional forum outbursts like yours, then there's the Subscriber who threatens to unsubscribe over some ludicrous thing, then there's the odd user who tries corporate blackmail to get a ban lifted, then there's the advertisers and manufacturers.. and so on....

Good job Ian's got an armoured car , and nerves of steel i reckon


Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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ZombieSlugs
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301764 - 23/05/06 08:49 PM
This went round and round on KvRAudio as well.

If you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em. Me, I'll save my cash for a UAD-1, which is cheaper than 2 of his plugins *and* has a nice useful dongle called a DSP card!

That said I'm sure someone will pay the price happily.. there's one born every minute, I hear!

--------------------
http://www.zombieslugs.com


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Ian Stewart



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #301804 - 23/05/06 09:41 PM
Quote Doublehelix:

Quote Andi:

Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from




It's a secret!!! Shhhhh...!!!




No its not - he got them here. Look in the source code.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301811 - 23/05/06 09:52 PM
Max much as I love you and look forward to your BBQ next month, I don't think you can speak for Ian on this.

If I ran SOS, which of course I do not, I would be somewhat acutely aware of the groundswell of opinion on this topic which indicates - in the most general of terms - that we would all be a lot happier if RN never contributed to SOS again.

And if that reasonable expectation is not met, it will have some impact on subscriptions.

That's not blackmail. That's business.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Feefer
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301865 - 23/05/06 11:22 PM
What I find slightly amusing (pathetic, actully) is when all these so-called experts claim that RN doesn't know what he's talking about, is a fraud, etc, etc. Seven-time Grammy winner? And just where are YOUR Grammies? How many phone calls do you get from Steely Dan, asking for YOU to record their sessions? Uh-huh....


News-flash: success as a recording engineeer depends on helluva lot more than just one's technical merits (and I'd dare say RN has forgotten MORE about digital audio than most of you have even begun to know), but about interacting with artists, musicians, producers, techies, etc. You can be an electronic engineer who knows the board's design inside and out, but that means little to getting a good sound... In the end, it's all about delivering results "in the can".

So lambast RN'S knowledge and experience all you want, but the guy has enjoyed a career the likes of which the majority of you can only DREAM about, EVEN those of you working as recording engineers. And if any of you think you CAN'T learn from him, even his mistakes, then I'm afraid there's little hope for your further professional development. Honestly, I'm excited at the prospect of even being able to listen in on conversations amongst guys who are recognized as experts in their field. Why? You learn from those before you, EVEN if their approach is not your cup of tea. You glean what's worthwhile, and ignore the rest (at your own risk, I might add...) Any other attitude aside from respect for one's predecessors is pathetic, at best....

But as an aside, though, I'd LOVE to hear suggestions for whom people think would be more-qualified, with real-world engineering experience, to provide insight into what's on the mind of someone successfully working in the recording biz. Please, throw out some names: we're all ears....

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #301875 - 23/05/06 11:36 PM
Oh dear Chris, you do walk into it don't you?

Just how many decades ago was RN's last grammy (or Steely Dan album)? Go check his own website.

What has he done since?

Well nothing. Except develop some dubious plug-ins with strange names which are hardly mainstream in the industry (AFAIK).

And blagged himself a couple of gigs writing, including EQ magazine and SOS, trading on (long) past glories.

He's a pensioner FFS!!!

He would have (and deserves) my undying respect for his Steely Dan work - although I draw the line at John Denver - if only he would have the good grace to recognise that his moment of glory has passed.

It's up to him to validate what he says or does now.

I'm not saying I'm better than him - of course I'm not. But I make a living out of this business, which is kind of noteworthy these days!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301881 - 23/05/06 11:46 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

If I ran SOS, which of course I do not, I would be somewhat acutely aware of the groundswell of opinion on this topic which indicates - in the most general of terms - that we would all be a lot happier if RN never contributed to SOS again.




Rubbish. What groundswell? Just a few disgruntled people on this forum. I'm a bit disappointed that the prices have gone up. We shall see what happens.

And who is the "We" in the Grand Scheme of Things? Not me. I enjoy Roger Nichol's articles. I have a brain, and I can sort Stuff Out Myself, thanks, without any heckling form Forum Bystanders.

and as to: "has Nichols been fired yet yes or no? i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this, either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER "

BOLLOX.

Injustice, MY ARSE!!!. Jeez.

Annoyed Of Pembrokeshire. After a long day's work.

Where's the beer?

Ahhh.


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #301883 - 23/05/06 11:55 PM
Quote Feefer:

What I find slightly amusing (pathetic, actully) is when all these so-called experts claim that RN doesn't know what he's talking about, is a fraud, etc, etc. Seven-time Grammy winner?





It doesn't matter how well he records and mixes, that doesn't mean he understands digital audio.

Quote:


News-flash: success as a recording engineeer depends on helluva lot more than just one's technical merits





News-flash: When you write an article trying to give a technical explanation for something alledgedly happening in digital audio, technical understanding is paramount.

Quote:


(and I'd dare say RN has forgotten MORE about digital audio than most of you have even begun to know),





Obviously not ... His explanation was flawed. Period.

Quote:


but about interacting with artists, musicians, producers, techies, etc. ... getting a good sound... In the end, it's all about delivering results "in the can".





He can write about that. Thats fine. But he should stay away from technical stuff he doesn't fully understand.


Quote:


... I'm afraid there's little hope for your further professional development.





I would say that applies to you if you get so easily star struck.

Quote:


Honestly, I'm excited at the prospect of even being able to listen in on conversations amongst guys who are recognized as experts in their field.





Roger Nichols is not recognised as an expert on digital audio. (Or modern DAWs).

Quote:


Any other attitude aside from respect for one's predecessors is pathetic, at best....





I have loads of respect for my grandfather that doesn't mean I will ask him advice about technical details of digital audio and that is the crux of my argument: Mr Nichols should be writing about what he knows. Not stuff that has evolved so much since he was up to date. (Although dither has always been part of digital audio so maybe he never really was aware of the technical details).

Quote:


But as an aside, though, I'd LOVE to hear suggestions for whom people think would be more-qualified, with real-world engineering experience, to provide insight into what's on the mind of someone successfully working in the recording biz. Please, throw out some names: we're all ears....

Chris




Hard to tell. Being a great engineer, even one with full knowledge about technical details, doesn't mean you are a great writer. Anyway, I repeat, Mr Nichols should write about what he knows. Not write technical articles about things he is not knowledgable enough about.

Actually, when I see the "7 times grammy award winner" on Mr Nichols site or on the EAS site or in the SOS articles I always wonder why his articles can't just stand on the merit of their content. If he really was so good, it wouldn't have to be mentioned again and again ...

UnderTow

Edited by UnderTow (24/05/06 12:17 AM)


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301884 - 24/05/06 12:01 AM

EA have posted a FAQ on their site: http://www.elementalaudio.com/RND_FAQ.html

UnderTow


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301885 - 24/05/06 12:07 AM
Steve, I have much respect for you. Your confident challenge against this (RN) figure for what you believe in is something that educates me on levels much deeper than just the Music Technology it stands to cover. But let it be said, as i'm sure you'd probably agree. Right or wrong, his arctles have perked my interest much more than the average of the recent SOS articles, and this, for itself, should be merited upon. I disagree in the way it is presented. It does very much come across as if RN is right and everybody else is wrong when it comes to technical knowledge. Yet in fact, I too have noticed some (what I believe) errors in the ideal thinking. But damn I'm looking forward to his next article, and surely that's what SOS is about!?


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #301887 - 24/05/06 12:12 AM
Guy - enjoy the beer! Let's talk some more tomorrow. I've said in posts above that I think it's a good thing to have a colourful guest columnist but also that I think -

(a) an "in-house contrarian" should nail his colours to the mast before possibly confusing e.g. college kids doing exams with his not-necessarily-mainstream theories;

(b) his handling of the EA takeover sucks to the point where at the very least his PR skills (and thus the public's confidence in him in future) are highly questionable. This viewpoint seems to be shared by an overwhelming number of people who have an opinion on the matter; and

(c) his independence as a columnist is questionable given his new vested interests.

Yes, we are entitled to get arsy about all this. I've done MBA courses and stuff and I know exactly how these things should be handled. This is a textbook example of getting it wrong, and the market is rightly making its own judgement.

After the events of the last few days the world is going to divide into Nichols apologists and the rest (it has already). If, say, SOS by its actions decides it is in the former camp, some people will vote with their feet.

That is not to say they are right or wrong, it's just the way of the world.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301888 - 24/05/06 12:19 AM
Don't get me wrong. I'll happily leech his knowledge. I'll never buy his products


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9338
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: E D]
      #301889 - 24/05/06 12:19 AM
I have to say ,that having read the FAQ, I'm distinctly underwhelmed....

the first few, dealing with the sale, or lack thereof, of assets or rights or whatever... is kind of karate answering... the art of answering without answering.

if no assets or rights of any kind were sold, leased or assigned, and they retain such complete control, then exactly how does RND fit into the picture at all???

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Steve Hill
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Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: E D]
      #301890 - 24/05/06 12:20 AM
Quote E D:

Steve, I have much respect for you. Your confident challenge against this (RN) figure for what you believe in is something that educates me on levels much deeper than just the Music Technology it stands to cover. But let it be said, as i'm sure you'd probably agree. Right or wrong, his arctles have perked my interest much more than the average of the recent SOS articles, and this, for itself, should be merited upon. I disagree in the way it is presented. It does very much come across as if RN is right and everybody else is wrong when it comes to technical knowledge. Yet in fact, I too have noticed some (what I believe) errors in the ideal thinking. But damn I'm looking forward to his next article, and surely that's what SOS is about!?




OK, let me put it another way. Did RN say to SOS a couple of months back, when discussing becoming a guest writer:

"Look I may be about to make a move in the marketplace which is really quite likely to p!ss off a lot of your readers. Are you OK with that?"

If not, why not?

If the SOS response is "fine, we are a broad church and welcome contrarian opinions" I think that is probably a good thing. But we should maybe put a health warning on the column before too many kids fail their exams for quoting views which are not necessarily universally accepted!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301892 - 24/05/06 12:27 AM
Quote Max The Mac:

then exactly how does RND fit into the picture at all???




He just seems to be a middleman adding to the cost without adding any value.

UnderTow


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: UnderTow]
      #301906 - 24/05/06 02:26 AM
Quote UnderTow:

It doesn't matter how well he records and mixes, that doesn't mean he understands digital audio.




Hey, weren't you the guy who COMPLETELY missed the point of RN's article on the benefit on transferring files via audio vs. digital? I know he confused you, daring to include two different discussions in the same article, but I recall that you so completely missed the ENTIRE point of his article when you got so hung up on the technical minutiae (lost "the forest for the trees").

Seriously, I'm all for technical accuracy, but if you think articles in SOS are some substitute for college level coursework in the principles of digital audio theory, you're expecting a bit too much for a music mag. SOS isn't even especially aimed at pro audio types (like Tape Op, Mix, etc), but home recorders. I mean, I've read reviews in SOS that contained technical errors, but didn't go ballistic, demanding the review be hung from the tallest lanyard.

While technical accuracy is admirable, the real world doesn't work like that, and the gig goes to the guy who gets results, and isn't just always technically correct.

This reminds me of guys who have Masters Degrees in music theory, or who are classically trained, but can't sit down and and play a casual or *gasp* improvise a solo to save their life. The guy has a heart attack when asked to play a rhythm sheet with chord changes in a recording studio, blowing repeated takes and eating studio time, all the while arguing to anyone who'll listen how the PROPER notation for the note should be a B double-sharp, not a D flat... The guy is so rigorous and inflexible in what he "knows" that he's unable to even admit what he DOESN'T know.

The bottom line is that theory, whether electronics or music theory, serves as a model to help us conceptualize that which can't be seen, and to help us more forward. Creative thinkers are willing to expand and explore alternative ways of thinking, challenging the limits of "what we know" instead of dismissing anything that dares deviate from what they were taught. In fact, some of the great breakthroughs in human knowledge could ONLY occur after someone WAS willing to entertain the idea that current thinking was insufficient, understanding theories need to be pushed.

All of which will carry very little weight with some of you: you already know it all (and RN can't hold a candle to your vast knowledge and experience).

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Feefer
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Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301910 - 24/05/06 02:42 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

(c) his independence as a columnist is questionable given his new vested interests.





Maybe you missed the recent review of Lounge Lizard 3, penned by a certain Martin Walker? Turns out he was also a contributor of "signature" patches that are included in the price of the software.. So obviously he must have SOME conflict of interest here? Was he paid for it? To his credit, he properly disclosed his relationship in his review (which is sufficient from an ethical standpoint, IMO).

I actually bought the software after reading the glowing review, but now am left wondering how he could've programmed so many signature patches and played the software for so long without having noticed a quite OBVIOUS software bug that creates an unnatural build-up in distortion while playing with the sustain pedal depressed? Hmm..

Users have complained of this problem on the AAS forum for months now, and supposedly AAS is working on a fix, but nothing to date. When finally rectified, the program WILL deserve all the praise it was given, but until then many find it far from ideal... Discussion of the problem is found on the AAS website.

SO what say you, unruly and incited mob? Are you willing to string up both MW AND RN for their supposed ethical crimes against humanity? If we're going to quibble about this, than string up MW first.

Bottom line is it ain't gonna happen. Some here are just fishing for angles to try and take RN down, like piranahas excited by what they perceive as the smell of fresh blood... Let it go, fellas.

If you don't like the EA/RN plug-ins or don't see value in them, or don't appreciate SOS, etc, then by all means feel free to complain, but don't refrain from voting with your money. It's as simple as that. I'm now less likely to buy those plug-ins (and really had no intent to, before this anyway) simply because I hate dongle protection. So I state my point, but vote with my wallet.

Just please refrain from the virtual diatribes, whining, and character assassination: it's rather pathetic. Show me your Grammys, hell, even your Grammy nominations, and then we'll talk.

PS I'm still waiting for even ONE suggestion of one name for someone who's column everyone would respect. Drop at least ONE name, ANY name, and then some will no doubt try to tear that guy a new one, too....

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301921 - 24/05/06 05:48 AM
Folks - this is a discussion about Roger Nichols Digital's take-over of Elemental Audio. For most of us, I would suggest, our primary interest in this is in establishing the exact future of the investment ($500+ in my case) many of us made in Elemental Audio products.

Simply bashing Roger Nichols personally is obscuring the central issue of this thread which is the actions of Roger Nichols Digital/Elemental Audio relating to their plug-ins. So far those hasty and oblique actions alone have provided ample fodder for lively discussion in this thread - whether or not Roger Nichols should be writing for SOS is a worthy discussion but surely belongs in another thread (in the new SOS Magazine Feedback Forum for example).

'Gelled Fringe's' feigned outrage was a wind-up (verging on trolling) that was deliberately designed to side-track the thread, and the subsequent "Show me your Grammys" nonsense is completely irrelevant - can we please get back to discussing the future of Elemental Audio plug-ins!


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