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ChrisCarter
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Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc!
      #300001 - 20/05/06 02:14 PM
Quote:
"As of May 19, 2006, Elemental Audio products are no longer available for purchase. All Elemental Audio products are now exclusively licensed and distributed by Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"

Which seems to translate to:

Same plugins, but awful new names!
Same plugins, but new inflated prices!
Same plugins, but now iLok'ed!

End of an era?



Links:
Announcement on Elemental Audio website
Roger Nichols Digital

Chris - I've added some links to your post (as it's the first in the discussion) to give readers of this thread some quick reference.

Edited by James Lehmann (21/05/06 06:08 AM)


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C_T
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300010 - 20/05/06 02:42 PM
You're right those are horrible names.

Still Finis was the only one I was missing.

C

--------------------
Dual 2Ghz G5 2.5GB RAM, Logic Pro 7.2, Logic Control, MOTU 828mkII Drumkit from Hell C&V and Superior, EW QLSO Gold, Zebra and Cameleon, Melodyne Uno, Atmosphere, Max/MSP


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300039 - 20/05/06 04:01 PM
The prices have gone from $169 for the Firium/Eqium bundle to, get this, $698 for the pair. I’ve heard of people taking the piss but that is beyond words!



I’ve updated my review in the user reviews section:

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=300037&page=0&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1#Post300037

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Mowens800



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300062 - 20/05/06 05:05 PM
This Roger Nichols fellow seems a bit of a [ ****** ].


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kubrick2001



Joined: 23/06/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #300075 - 20/05/06 05:39 PM
This is very bad news.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4364
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300089 - 20/05/06 06:18 PM
Oh, well. I was going to buy some. As you say, taking the piss.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9076
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #300099 - 20/05/06 06:48 PM
OMG! I'm sticking with my original, vintage, Elemental Audio versions...


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* User requested
...




Joined: 15/02/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: desmond]
      #300121 - 20/05/06 07:31 PM
The contrast between EA's old graphics / names / 'feel' and the newimproved Roger Nichols approach, couldn't be greater. That's to say, class vs. crass. And unless he's planning some extraordinary updates, I wouldn't be surprised if he has trouble shifting the plugs at the prices he's set. Finis/Equium et al are good, but at $349 a pop, they're now competing with some very desirable (well, for a plug in...) competitors. At their previous prices, it was a no-brainer. Now?.....

And what's happened to the Inspector XL bundle? That was one of the best things EA made, and it seems to have disappeared.

As someone else said, end of an era.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9076
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: * User requested deletion 2 *]
      #300136 - 20/05/06 07:57 PM
According to his forum, the Bitchin-izer, the Level-izer and the Wendel-izer are in development and coming next.

I kid you not with the names.

I guess Bitchinizer = Finis, Levelizer = InspectorXL and Wendel-izer is some kinda sample replacer...


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300169 - 20/05/06 09:20 PM
Is that the same Roger Nichols who writes that column I never read in SOS?


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9076
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #300177 - 20/05/06 09:52 PM
The very one.

Edit: looks like the last three plugins are not former EA ones, but his own creations:

http://www.rndigital.com/Bitchin.html
http://www.rndigital.com/Level.html
http://www.rndigital.com/Wendel.html

"This control incorporates the scientific application of magic."

Er.. nice...

Edited by desmond (20/05/06 09:57 PM)


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ChrisCarter
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300183 - 20/05/06 10:08 PM
Quote:

Is that the same Roger Nichols who writes that column I never read in SOS?




The very same!
.

--------------------
Web Site | Twitter | iTunes


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Sonicus



Joined: 13/05/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300189 - 20/05/06 10:17 PM
Oh My God! That is a Masive massive massive Shock, I loved that company - jeez I am gonna have to find a new one.

Not a Chance in hell am I gonna pay for plugs that look so sh*te and cost twice as much! are you kidding - I actually cannot beleive that, whoa what a bummer. I am still in shock, what a Tw*t that guy is.

I am so Angry.


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Disco Stu
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300195 - 20/05/06 10:29 PM
C**p, S**t, B****r, B******s, I was days away from buying the full max bundle, they looked like the best plugins on the market in terms of how they sounded and what they did, wish I could still find a way I could get hold of copies of them, anyone got any ideas?

Stu


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300207 - 20/05/06 11:02 PM
*cough* ITS ILLEGAL AND WE DONT TOLERATE IT! *cough*
















Not that i would.

Edited by Max The Mac (20/05/06 11:37 PM)


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Disco Stu]
      #300213 - 20/05/06 11:46 PM
Quote Disco Stu:

C**p, S**t, B****r, B******s, I was days away from buying the full max bundle, they looked like the best plugins on the market in terms of how they sounded and what they did, wish I could still find a way I could get hold of copies of them, anyone got any ideas?

Stu




yes.

BUY THEM

Cracks are utterly illegal, and we have a complete zero tolerance policy on this forum/.

and it's NOT up for debate either.

I have to add, that I utterly utterly agree that this is IMHO a complete disaster


I have all the Elemental plug ins, which i bought and paid for quite happily....

However, there's no way on gods green earth i'd pay the new prices for them.

BUT


anyone who's kept an eye on such things will have seen various illegal versions floating about , so it's possible , indeed quite likely, , probable even, that this state of affairs is a direct result of people using cracked versions instead of buying them!
if Roger Nichols can afford to buy them outright, then it leads one to suspect their turnover and cashflow might have been terminally in short supply.

So , it's probably very much a "ye shall reap what you sow.." situation.


why do you think SOS in print and forums are SO anti theft of intellectual property ?? all of them, music , samples and software, require funds to develop and support.....

developers don't have some magic money tree in the back garden either....

so, just like anyone else, if no one pays them, they go bust , or get bought out....... or both.

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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-=@(*_*)@=-
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300216 - 20/05/06 11:54 PM
Here is what I think:

1) I understand how you guys feel about this, I too first was very disappointed,
mainly because of the price inflation... But then I read the word "Partner" ! So it means that the engineers behind EA are still alive and are going to keep going at it... That is at least a good news.

2) In all honesty, I always felt a bit sorry for EA, because their stuff was cheap and not very popular, I mean they don't always get mentioned as top plugs in forums, but they are very good quality plugins and the staff at EA are really nice, I always though that they deserve much more attention. I did email them
before and payed my respect to them. Inspector was the very first free Spectrum Analyzer plugin, they ported it on every platform still free...

3) Now it is time for AE to get more attention and recognition, they well deserve it. So, what might have happened? some guys like Mr Roger thought that these plugs were really good and that the company EA could do with some help, so that is what is happening today. I don't know what deal they come up with though, I personally don't mind.

4) The best part is that Roger is popular and got some contacts and has got plans, meaning that the EA plugs that we all love are going to get better than they already are, newer + improved stuff, then Roger forces the iLok, we hate it but let's face it, it is good for the company because No piracy, no crack, if you see what I mean? EA stuff have been "patched" already and that is no good for the company, it means loss of earnings - end of business, period.
So, then people expect to see more plugs, updates and so on... but these guys need to eat as well you know. Today, using a crack plugin is the equivalent of stilling a car 20 years ago. Stilling a car is something physical, and big, ok, a plugin is a software that you cannot physically touch, ok, what is the relation then? Well, to me using cracks is like stilling the hard work of developers and engineers, months or year of hard work of their life...

5) We should be happy for EA, they deserve to break thru, they will grow and we will all benefit from it. I am not rich myself, and if i cannot afford the next
EA/Roger plugs, it doesn't matter... it is life, you can't always have the cake and eat it. These are my personnel comments and I don't mean to piss anyone of you off, in these world and life, money as always been a problem, take the price away and think of the benefit. EA have been quiet for a while, they are not loud people, and they will probably benefit from Mr Rogers' help,
we will see...

Ok, it was a long post, but i felt like saying that, because I too, first was quite pissed off, human thing you know, but second though took over quickly.
Ask yourself, why would EA do that? They surely don't want to disappoint us,
but they probably need help. That's it.

www.topfloormix.com

--------------------
-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/


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blueintheface



Joined: 24/11/04
Posts: 645
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300218 - 21/05/06 12:02 AM
Just read his entry in Wikipedia

I can think of a much more concise entry.

Dick.


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Disco Stu
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Joined: 27/07/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #300219 - 21/05/06 12:04 AM
Quote Max The Mac:



yes.

BUY THEM

Cracks are utterly illegal, and we have a complete zero tolerance policy on this forum/.

and it's NOT up for debate either.

I have to add, that I utterly utterly agree that this is IMHO a complete disaster


I have all the Elemental plug ins, which i bought and paid for quite happily....

However, there's no way on gods green earth i'd pay the new prices for them.

BUT


anyone who's kept an eye on such things will have seen various illegal versions floating about , so it's possible , indeed quite likely, , probable even, that this state of affairs is a direct result of people using cracked versions instead of buying them!
if Roger Nichols can afford to buy them outright, then it leads one to suspect their turnover and cashflow might have been terminally in short supply.

So , it's probably very much a "ye shall reap what you sow.." situation.


why do you think SOS in print and forums are SO anti theft of intellectual property ?? all of them, music , samples and software, require funds to develop and support.....

developers don't have some magic money tree in the back garden either....

so, just like anyone else, if no one pays them, they go bust , or get bought out....... or both.

Max




Indeed and im not trying to get my hands on them for free, I just can no longer afford to pay the new vastly increased price that roger is offering them for, if id have been able to get the cash 2 days earlier id have them now and wouldnt be complaining. They are plug ins which are too good to pass up easily.

Ok lets take another tack, does anyone know if anything very similar exists from another manufacturer, the plugins I was really interested in are the Unlimited band factor of Eqium coupled with its ease of use, and the quality of the Finis limiter, anyone found good comparable alternatives of a similar price?

Stu


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300248 - 21/05/06 05:08 AM
Roger Nichols calls in at the Elemental Audio offices:
“Hi, just in case you didn’t know, I’m Roger Nichols!, seven times Grammy winner and I have a cool plan to make us both richer!!

Let’s put my name on your plug-ins then we can charge like four times the price, cool eh? Hey, better yet, let’s round it up to a cool sounding $698. Split 50/50 you get just over twice as much as you were getting. How cool is that!”


Piracy may have had an effect on events but I guarantee that hiking the price up to just over FOUR TIMES the previous price will have an even bigger effect on sales.

This ludicrously greedy price hike is a sign to other companies that this sort of thing is acceptable; it most certainly is not! I’m 100% sure the majority will be voting with their wallets.

As far as I’m concerned, all the original plug-ins work just fine thank-you-very-much. There is nothing Roger Nichols can do to improve them; he’s already shown he is capable of degrading their looks by plastering them with those silly brushed aluminium effect fronts and this whole EA ‘merger’ is an unmitigated public relations disaster.


Sorry, I previously forgot: thank you Chris Carter for bringing this to our attention.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300249 - 21/05/06 05:16 AM
For me, EA had a USP (unique selling point) that was made up of three things:

Quality, price and non-restrictive copy protection.

The last two points have been destroyed; in my book they no longer have a valid USP.

Destroy a company’s USP and you destroy the company.




--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300255 - 21/05/06 06:15 AM
This news just ruined my weekend - I'm gutted!

I own the whole Elemental Audio suite and have invested a lot of time over the past year learning how to mix and master comfortably and quickly with these wonderful tools. I love Elemental Audio for all the reasons Tim gives above. In fact I've spent the last year weaning myself off Waves-addiction and remixing a lot of stuff with EA plug-ins, a company that I thought had products that were as good if not better than Waves at a more reasonable price and with no invasive CP.

I suppose I can continue using them unsupported until they break and no longer work with some future system upgrade - for example I dunno if they're gonna work with the Intel Macs.

Eqium had become my 'go-to' EQ with its clear interface and transparent sound and I found Finis an excellent limiter - these are the two I shall miss the most.

Alternatively I'll have to spend another year moving off EA plug-ins to another company, and relearning all their plug-ins. sigh...

I also now feel a little guilty for all the people that I've been enthusiastically talking these plug-ins up to over the last year or so - my apologies folks, I had no idea it would end like this!


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: blueintheface]
      #300271 - 21/05/06 07:45 AM
Quote blueintheface:

Just read his entry in Wikipedia

I can think of a much more concise entry.

Dick.




"Roger is also an airplane pilot, and was close friends and flying buddies with singer/songwriter John Denver. He helped John pick out the new airplane in which he later died."

I hope that's not an omen for the long-term future of Finis, say....

Oh well, good while it lasted. I won't be buying any more of this stuff at the new prices, or anything like. Universal Audio continue to invest wisely and sensibly in the UAD range... there's other stuff out there which is quite usable!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Sonicus



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 245
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #300274 - 21/05/06 07:56 AM
Quote James Lehmann:


I suppose I can continue using them unsupported until they break and no longer work with some future system upgrade - for example I dunno if they're gonna work with the Intel Macs.

Eqium had become my 'go-to' EQ with its clear interface and transparent sound and I found Finis an excellent limiter - these are the two I shall miss the most.

Alternatively I'll have to spend another year moving off EA plug-ins to another company, and relearning all their plug-ins. sigh...

I also now feel a little guilty for all the people that I've been enthusiastically talking these plug-ins up to over the last year or so - my apologies folks, I had no idea it would end like this!




My Exact sentiments - What to do and where to move next.... Eqium is my staple basic EQ I put it on just about everything, and Firium I use for mastering. I am not going to sell my G5 Dual when I buy a new more powerful macintel so I will use it to master on.

I am now keeping a keen eye on a a good All round eq, (Focusrite Liquid Mix?).

I think the shock and dissapointment is because they were so 'inexpensive' and excellent - and the company was accessible and responsive. They may now have been brought up to date and more in-line with 'real world' prices but it is a brutal and insensitive transition, it has been done so unexpectedly and with no 'grace' or consideration to it's existing customers.

This indicates a significant change of management style and one that I am uncomfortable with.

If Mr Roger Tickles and his 'Bitchin' company do not offer a reasonable and sensibly priced 'transition' to Universal Binary then it is truly goodbye from this customer.

Never has: 'From the sublime to the ridiculous' seemed so apt.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: -=@(*_*)@=-]
      #300279 - 21/05/06 08:22 AM
Quote Topfloormix:

Today, using a crack plugin is the equivalent of stilling a car 20 years ago. Stilling a car is something physical, and big, ok, a plugin is a software that you cannot physically touch, ok, what is the relation then? Well, to me using cracks is like stilling the hard work of developers and engineers, months or year of hard work of their life...





I think using cracked software is like employing a musician to do several gigs then refusing to pay her/him and justifying it by saying "it doesn't cost you anything to do gigs, just time, so what's the problem? Afterall I didn't steal anything from you".
I'm sure what Roger Nichols writes is accurate otherwise SOS wouldn't publish his articles but after the first one I just accept the fact we live in different universes so they just don't convince me. I remember when George Duke wrote for Keyboard magazine in the 80s. That great keyboard player wrote utter tosh for the magazine and his articles stopped soon afterwards, lets hope that is an omen for SOS.

Bring back Big George, I'm on his wavelength.


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #300283 - 21/05/06 08:45 AM
As someone over on Roger’s own forum has posted, for the extortionate price he’s now changing for these plug-ins, you can get some pretty decent hardware…

Hmmmm, at least hardware doesn’t stop working when you update your OS or change sequencer versions… maybe a rethink is in order.
Roger's own forum

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #300296 - 21/05/06 09:27 AM
Quote Tim Rainey:

As someone over on Roger’s own forum has posted, for the extortionate price he’s now changing for these plug-ins, you can get some pretty decent hardware…

Hmmmm, at least hardware doesn’t stop working when you update your OS or change sequencer versions… maybe a rethink is in order.
Roger's own forum




Interesting comment, I was just thinking this morning that with the Waves authorisation change and some of my plug-ins no longer working in the latest versions of Logic, when I decide to buy a limiter, which will be soon, I am going to get a hardware one.
I think software is alright in two situations :

1. Its your main way of working, in my case Logic, so I keep up to date and accept I will have to buy upgrades (rather like maintainence on a reel to reel).

2. You accept it may only work for a few years so you in fact rent it. E.g. a software compressor costs £249.00, will last on your current system for about 18 months, so you look upon the retail price as renting it at £13.84 per month.

Whereas I think major record labels have largely created their own hell with overpriced CDs, and not responding to markets either quick enough or not at all, software companies are innocent victims of what is now considered acceptable theft.


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300297 - 21/05/06 09:28 AM
Thank God I took advantage of their offer a few weeks back to pick up any software I didn't already have at an even cheaper price... I really love their stuff and the reason for this is plainly obvious....

STOP USING CRACKS, everyone, or all our favourite software will go the same way, as is an awful lot of good music. To me, there's no argument- if people don't pay for either music or software, the industry's f****d.

PAY FOR MUSIC YOU RESPECT, AND PAY FOR SOFTWARE YOU RESPECT.

I'm totally fed up with people, even musos, asking me to 'make a copy' of something they've just heard round my house that they like. When I remind them that maybe the musician concerned might need to get PAID for his work, simply to ensure there might be some more music from that source, they get all shitty and start moaning that it's too much trouble.

At which point I throw them out of the house for being the ********* they really are- willing to appreciate other people's creativity but too lazy and mean to go out and PAY for it.

GRRRRRRRRRR!

Sorry for the shouting, but I'm well pissed off this morning.



tomafd


--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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Barilla
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #300320 - 21/05/06 10:46 AM
Quote noiseconjecture:

Quote Tim Rainey:

As someone over on Roger’s own forum has posted, for the extortionate price he’s now changing for these plug-ins, you can get some pretty decent hardware…




Very true statement. Some people will always want to use hardware - me included. I get p***ed off enough every time apple try and squeeze our balls for minor upgrades to Logic, so I don't know how I'd feel if I owned a load of plugins that needed upgrading every 6 months or whatever. My system feels better without a load of plugins in there anyway, but that's way off topic (sorry).

I'm on the lookout for a decent hardware EQ. As for a good hardware limiter (someone asked) I bought one from this chap and can't rate it highly enough:

http://www.davelectronics.com/

As for iLok's - I simply won't use them. It seems that all these contributing factors in the EA - Mr Roger takeover are a case of lifting a rock, only to drop it on their own feet.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: tomafd]
      #300324 - 21/05/06 11:01 AM
Quote tomafd:


I'm totally fed up with people, even musos, asking me to 'make a copy' of something they've just heard round my house that they like. When I remind them that maybe the musician concerned might need to get PAID for his work, simply to ensure there might be some more music from that source, they get all shitty and start moaning that it's too much trouble.

At which point I throw them out of the house for being the ********* they really are- willing to appreciate other people's creativity but too lazy and mean to go out and PAY for it.:




Exactly, I took a new Cd by a little known electronica duo to a friend who runs a recording studio. He listened to a few tracks, turned and looked at me and said "Very nice, copy please". I explained that they were a small group on their own label and I don't do illegal copies.
Can you believe he has just started his own production company and is trying to release his own records?

I blame Thatcher for a lot of it, she was the doyen of short-termism. Her entire policies were based on it.


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Joined: 15/02/05
Posts: 2235
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Barilla]
      #300340 - 21/05/06 11:42 AM
Quote Breelo:

Quote noiseconjecture:

Quote Tim Rainey:

I'm on the lookout for a decent hardware EQ. As for a good hardware limiter (someone asked) I bought one from this chap and can't rate it highly enough:

http://www.davelectronics.com/






Sorry for taking this off topic; Breelo (or is it Noiseconjecture? - not too clear with the quotes) - what is the DAV limiter like? Transparent or 'characterful' What kind of material you using it on? I've been trying to find out info on this for ages, wondering whether to get a playmate for my BG1..... PM me if you like.

Right, back on topic....

Roger Nichols - you tosser!


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Barilla
member


Joined: 16/12/02
Posts: 283
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: * User requested deletion 2 *]
      #300345 - 21/05/06 12:01 PM
Reid,

I'll drop you a PM.


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300399 - 21/05/06 02:48 PM
I spend alot of time on an Irish clubbing forum and the guys on there simply don't understand the consequences of using file sharing and cracked software, I think the dance music people are definately the worst culprits in general.

It's hard not to spend all you're time badgering people, but I'm 100% certain I'd be making alot more money if it wasn't for people sharing MP3s and CDs.

I don't understand why heavier punishments aren't implimented to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.

It's depressing for me to realise at this stage in my career, that unless I become highly successful within my field that I'll never be able to support myself writing music.

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Shaun Dark]
      #300426 - 21/05/06 03:55 PM
Quote Shaun Dark:

I spend alot of time on an Irish clubbing forum and the guys on there simply don't understand the consequences of using file sharing and cracked software, I think the dance music people are definately the worst culprits in general.

It's hard not to spend all you're time badgering people, but I'm 100% certain I'd be making alot more money if it wasn't for people sharing MP3s and CDs.

I don't understand why heavier punishments aren't implimented to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.

It's depressing for me to realise at this stage in my career, that unless I become highly successful within my field that I'll never be able to support myself writing music.




I don't think piracy is the main problem of failure.

I mean how many non linear phase EQ's can one have?Aren't they all the same,virtually?
I've only heard of these plugs a few months ago so how do I know thy exist within a large market?Funnily some companies forced their products to be cracked to be SEEN,then developed on demand.Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300428 - 21/05/06 04:02 PM
When Apple took over Emagic and stopped support for the PC version of Logic there were hundreds (if not thousands) of irate posts all over the web. The majority decried Apple’s tactics but there were still quite a few who said it would be a good thing.

Once again, all over the web, people are posting about this EA/RND event. This time it’s interesting to note the difference: there are virtually NO dissenters at all...

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #300429 - 21/05/06 04:06 PM
Quote Music Manic:

Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.




The very occasional sample I do use has been purchased in the form of a CD, the original artist/producer gets paid.

Also comparing a track in a narrow genre like say, tech trance, to that Gnarls Barkely track is a no brainer.

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #300432 - 21/05/06 04:10 PM
Quote Music Manic:

I don't think piracy is the main problem of failure.

I mean how many non linear phase EQ's can one have?Aren't they all the same,virtually?
I've only heard of these plugs a few months ago so how do I know thy exist within a large market?




where have you been?? mars??

seriously, whenever someone asks about good EQ plugs, or is looking for a surgically useful "performance rescue device" dynamically, Elemental audio have always been recommended by the majority of the Mac forum users, , certainly i mention them every time some one asks "what's good?" or "|must have"

the Logic user group had a huge response to their group buy a couple of years ago......

look at the number of people lamenting their passing..... as it were...

I'm unlikely to buy anything called a "Bitchinizer"

the changes made are , frankly tacky and appallingly crass, it seems Mr Nichols has about as much taste as coach load of footie fans mooning a funeral cortege.

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300434 - 21/05/06 04:16 PM
I'll agree with Music Manic on one thing; most software companies are absolutely crap at marketing their products, be they good or bad.

Word of mouth just don't cut it

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300448 - 21/05/06 05:01 PM
In the very first Mr. Nichols "bitch fest" thread, I told you that he as a... er... reputation of sorts. Seems that he has lived up to that reputation.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Shaun Dark]
      #300452 - 21/05/06 05:15 PM
Quote Shaun Dark:

Quote Music Manic:

Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.




The very occasional sample I do use has been purchased in the form of a CD, the original artist/producer gets paid.

Also comparing a track in a narrow genre like say, tech trance, to that Gnarls Barkely track is a no brainer.




OK what success have you had?
Lots of tracks use samples because companies want their material to be used again.They want to be "ripped off" because when the track is successful the artist ain't gonna have a chance.
Software is different ,but still,if they become well known a big company will take them over.

With the Gnarls track I was talking about a marketing strategy not a genre.plus how much money does Trance etc make compared to mainstream?

I Must learn to talk non-laterally on these sites.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #300458 - 21/05/06 05:25 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

Quote Music Manic:

I don't think piracy is the main problem of failure.

I mean how many non linear phase EQ's can one have?Aren't they all the same,virtually?
I've only heard of these plugs a few months ago so how do I know thy exist within a large market?




where have you been?? mars??

seriously, whenever someone asks about good EQ plugs, or is looking for a surgically useful "performance rescue device" dynamically, Elemental audio have always been recommended by the majority of the Mac forum users, , certainly i mention them every time some one asks "what's good?" or "|must have"

the Logic user group had a huge response to their group buy a couple of years ago......

look at the number of people lamenting their passing..... as it were...

I'm unlikely to buy anything called a "Bitchinizer"

the changes made are , frankly tacky and appallingly crass, it seems Mr Nichols has about as much taste as coach load of footie fans mooning a funeral cortege.

Max




Ok so tell me(as an end user)why I should use Waves over Elemental Audio,over Uad etc,if it says linear-EQ plugin?
That means that the EQ should do that one thing right?

Seriously we can have different types of colouration plugins etc but when they are doing the same thing how are we supposed to know? We aren't programmers right?

I have $20 plugins that give me what I need and sound georgeous.I have stumbled on them by chance,so "reputation" by people just begs the question of it being a marketing ploy by company and pushes me away.

Look at Ohmboyz delay for example.absolutely beautiful.Who talks about them?


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #300470 - 21/05/06 05:43 PM
Quote Music Manic:

Quote Shaun Dark:

Quote Music Manic:

Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.




The very occasional sample I do use has been purchased in the form of a CD, the original artist/producer gets paid.

Also comparing a track in a narrow genre like say, tech trance, to that Gnarls Barkely track is a no brainer.




OK what success have you had?
Lots of tracks use samples because companies want their material to be used again.They want to be "ripped off" because when the track is successful the artist ain't gonna have a chance.


Software is different ,but still,if they become well known a big company will take them over.

With the Gnarls track I was talking about a marketing strategy not a genre.plus how much money does Trance etc make compared to mainstream?

I Must learn to talk non-laterally on these sites.




With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all


--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Edited by Shaun Dark (21/05/06 05:50 PM)


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Shaun Dark]
      #300489 - 21/05/06 06:31 PM
Quote:



With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all




Why am I talking crap?
Why do most people talk like they know it all when we're supposed to be knocking off eachother.

I'm saying however he did it he's made more sales than any track for a while and we all know that sales have dropped not just because of piracy but because of bad music.

There was a drum and bass track I was after for ages.I kept hearing it but no mention of what it was.Now how the hell am I supposed to buy it?
When I found out who it was by it was deleted,so the only way I could get it was how???

So how would you defeat piracy?

Also I've been into music for 20 year and have made little.
So what?

You keep blaming it on piracy.Why?

People in IT can't find jobs easily now,why?Oh it must be piracy.No it's saturated mate.

You think they couldn't stop piracy tomorrow if they wanted to?

You need to chill out.

P.S. You think somebody couldn't make a hit out of your or my track if they wanted to? What makes you or I so special?


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Lars Farm



Joined: 11/11/04
Posts: 66
Loc: Sundsvall, Sweden
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #300494 - 21/05/06 06:39 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

I'm unlikely to buy anything called a "Bitchinizer"




Made me jump too. It is the antithesis of the good solid knowledgeable impression that Elemental gave. When I look for something to do digital audio processing / filters then I expect good solid traditional established science, math and physics skills from whoever comes up with the algorithms. Elemental appeared to have that. The new one is an established producer of music. Completely different set of skills and the names... and the prices...


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Lars Farm]
      #300499 - 21/05/06 06:45 PM
Breelo - check your PMs


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cebenezer



Joined: 08/02/05
Posts: 14
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: * User requested deletion 2 *]
      #300551 - 21/05/06 08:26 PM
Here's the thing .. what is a piece of software worth to you ? I'd say it's simply it's value over time.

Those buying the EA plugins (4 here) assumed they'd be able to get a few years use out of them, with a lower cost upgrade to a future version at the end of it.

So, today I can get a new version of any of those with a worse user interface, a clumsy and non-transparent rights protection system for twice the price - and the upgrade cost will probably be equivalent to the price of the original EA plugins given the scale up.

The VST industry complains about piracy - which is fair enough, but to my mind this sort of thing destroys the perception of the value of software. Next time an EA user buys software from a small company they are going to be mentally factoring in the cost of being screwed over - the result; the software will have a lower perceived value, and they won't be willing to pay as much.


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300558 - 21/05/06 08:35 PM
If Elemental Audio were in financial trouble, fair enough, they seek a buyer. But there are two ways Roger Nichols could have bought up the company:

METHOD 1:

- Respect the existing client base by guaranteeing continued support
- Encourage new customers by keeping the price in the same ball-park
- Attract new customers by avoiding iLok
- Re-assure new customers by keeping sensible names for the plug-ins

METHOD 2:

- Alienate the existing client base by ceasing all support
- Put-off new customers by hiking up the price
- Put-off new customers by employing iLok
- Put-off new customers by giving the plug-ins silly names

Unfortunately he seems to have chosen Method 2.

Now maybe Roger Nichols knows something we don't about the software plug-in business, but given the above, I just can't see how he expects to make any money from this venture - there's absolutely no way anyone is going to be buying those plug-ins now! I predict a spectacular failure, meaning within a year the new plug-ins won't be around anymore.


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Sonicus



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 245
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300573 - 21/05/06 08:57 PM
Or.....

1. Explain to customers that due to piracy, huge revenue is being lost and livelihoods put at stake.

2. Continue to support existing customers, but...increase prices for new takers.

3. Maybe consider using ilok (I have No problem at all with that).

I would be completely on EAU's side - they are, were a killer company I would have paid 50% more for their plugs maybe more, I would be happy with iLok.

But what they have done is pretty strange, really.


Does Roger Tickles have a Master Plan to buy up all the small software companies so that he can control the known universe......

Bitchinizer!! - this is beyond a joke right, has Mr Tickles spent too much time around untreated Plutonium?, this guy on KVR said it right - Just wait until you find out about the next plugin called 'Sodom-izer' It turns on a special feature of the dongle that makes it 'anal-ize' you while you play! And it'll sell for only 499.95!!!


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #300578 - 21/05/06 09:02 PM
Quote Music Manic:

Quote:



With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all




Why am I talking crap?
Why do most people talk like they know it all when we're supposed to be knocking off eachother.

I'm saying however he did it he's made more sales than any track for a while and we all know that sales have dropped not just because of piracy but because of bad music.

There was a drum and bass track I was after for ages.I kept hearing it but no mention of what it was.Now how the hell am I supposed to buy it?
When I found out who it was by it was deleted,so the only way I could get it was how???

So how would you defeat piracy?

Also I've been into music for 20 year and have made little.
So what?

You keep blaming it on piracy.Why?

People in IT can't find jobs easily now,why?Oh it must be piracy.No it's saturated mate.

You think they couldn't stop piracy tomorrow if they wanted to?

You need to chill out.

P.S. You think somebody couldn't make a hit out of your or my track if they wanted to? What makes you or I so special?




To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy? Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.

And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300584 - 21/05/06 09:07 PM
If Roger Nichols buys Audio Damage I am going to resort to violence. How much do you think SOS would charge to have someone rip out his articles before I buy my copy? How can you be an optimist when things like this happen.


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cebenezer



Joined: 08/02/05
Posts: 14
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Sonicus]
      #300598 - 21/05/06 09:25 PM
Quote Noiseflaw:


Does Roger Tickles have a Master Plan to buy up all the small software companies so that he can control the known universe......





Not Roger Nichols .. but there are a few big companies out there that appear to be doing just this ..


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #300615 - 21/05/06 09:49 PM
Email delivery a little while ago.

AFAIK, it's not restricted knowledge or content, so i thought some people might benefit.


I would however add that i have NO problem with the use of iLok , which is an eminently sensible move...

perhaps the ONLY one in this entire situation.

Copy protection is a defacto requirement these days, i'd much rather have it on an iLok , that i can take with me , than stuck only on the G5 in my own studio.

Max

Quote:

Hello,

********************************************
THIS MESSAGE CONTAINS IMPORTANT INFORMATION
ABOUT PRODUCTS YOU HAVE PURCHASED. PLEASE
READ THIS MESSAGE IN ITS ENTIRETY.
********************************************

Elemental Audio has entered into a partnership with Roger Nichols Digital, Inc., the software company founded by seven (7) time Grammy winning engineer/producer Roger Nichols. All Elemental Audio products are now exclusively licensed and distributed by Roger Nichols Digital. This is an exciting transition for each of us at Elemental Audio. We believe that our software development abilities combined with the engineering and production expertise of Roger Nichols makes for a very promising relationship.

It was important to us that our customers be treated as fairly as possible in this change. We are writing this message to help you fully understand the implications and to let you know what you can expect in the future. We hope that this information will help to alleviate any concerns or misgivings you might have had about this transition.


I. AVAILABILITY OF ELEMENTAL AUDIO PRODUCTS
As of May 19, 2006, Elemental Audio products are no longer available for purchase. All Elemental Audio products will, however, be continued in some form under the Roger Nichols Digital name. Every Elemental Audio product may not be immediately available, but each will be available as a Roger Nichols Digital equivalent in the near future.

II. SUPPORT FOR CURRENT CUSTOMERS
We will continue to provide technical support and customer service to all of our current customers for the foreseeable future. You may still access the Support area of our web site at < http://www.elementalaudio.com/support/ > to view the Knowledgebase, contact us, access your downloads, submit email address changes, etc.

III. FUTURE UPDATES
We will provide at least one additional update to each commercial Elemental Audio product. This update will add Mac-Intel support and may incorporate bug fixes and other minor changes. Updates will be to the Elemental Audio products with which you are familiar; these updates will not require a move to the Roger Nichols Digital equivalents. There will be no charge associated with these updates. As usual, you will be notified by email when the updates become available.

IV. ROGER NICHOLS DIGITAL VERSIONS VS ELEMENTAL AUDIO VERSIONS
You should be aware of some of the primary differences between Elemental Audio branded products and the Roger Nichols Digital (RND) equivalents. First, RND products are to be available as boxed versions with printed documentation (in addition to being immediately downloadable). Second, RND products will be distributed by a network of independent dealers and distributers as well as being sold/distributed by RND itself. Third, RND products all utilize an iLok for copy protection.

V. PRICING
There will be a difference in the prices of Elemental Audio products and the equivalents distributed by Roger Nichols Digital. While Elemental Audio does not control the pricing of Roger Nichols Digital products, we have made an effort to ensure that the cost to you associated with this change is as small as possible as described in the FUTURE PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT section.

VI. COPY PROTECTION (iLok)
As you may be aware, there was a significant amount of pirating of Elemental Audio products. To reduce the incidence of piracy, Roger Nichols Digital branded products are protected by iLok; authorizations may be placed on an existing iLok - a separate iLok is not required. We have received many requests to add support for iLok copy protection over the years, so many customers should be pleased by this change. Note that Elemental Audio branded products will not be changed to use iLok for copy protection. When you receive your planned update(s) the standard Elemental Audio copy protection will still be in place.

VII. FUTURE PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT
Elemental Audio products will not be developed in the future beyond the planned updates mentioned previously. Thus, you will need to move to the Roger Nichols Digital equivalents to benefit from future product enhancements. We all wanted to make it easy for you to continue with the Roger Nichols Digital equivalent(s) of your Elemental Audio products, so you can benefit from future updates and changes. At some point in the not-too-distant future, you will be given the opportunity to move to the RND branded equivalent of your purchased Elemental Audio product(s). You will not be expected to pay the full price to continue on with the products you have purchased, however, there will be a nominal charge (e.g. $20 or so) associated with this move, sufficient to cover the cost of the boxed version/printed documentation, etc. We will send you more information about moving to the RND equivalents once all details have been finalized.

VIII. ELEMENTAL AUDIO'S FUTURE
Elemental Audio will continue to exist as a separate entity and will, for the foreseeable future, continue to develop audio related products. Like existing Elemental Audio products, future products developed by Elemental Audio will be distributed by Roger Nichols Digital.

IX. CUSTOMER SPECIAL
Please be advised that last month's Customer Appreciation special was conceived of and put in place based purely on customer request/feedback and prior to any relationship between Elemental Audio and Roger Nichols Digital. Though ill-timed, the special was not in response to any anticipated change. We regret any confusion the timing of these events may have caused.


It is a pleasure producing software for you and we appreciate the support you have given us. We trust that you will give us your support now as you have in the past - we'd certainly like to have you with us as we make this transition. We hope that, like us, you see this move as a step in a positive direction. Roger Nichols Digital (RND) products have much to offer. In addition to the software itself, they will have the benefit of the experience of an accomplished engineer and producer, which should result in improved usability for you. The products will include printed documentation as well as presets developed by Roger Nichols, both areas where Elemental Audio products could have stood to improve (based on feedback we have received). And these are just a few of the benefits to you of the Roger Nichols Digital and Elemental Audio relationship.

As always, please feel free to contact us if you have any questions or concerns. Note that our response may be delayed due to a high volume of email. If the volume of mail we receive in response to this news is very high, we may elect not to respond to messages that do not request or actually require a response. In any case, we do read every message we receive, so you can be assured that your thoughts will be considered whether you receive a personal response or not. If you do not receive a personal response but would like one, please feel free to write back to us to request one.

Thanks, again!

Very Sincerely,
The Elemental Audio Team

------------------------------------
Customer Service & Support
cs@elementalaudio.com

Elemental Audio Systems
http://www.elementalaudio.com
------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------
This message describes Elemental Audio's relationship with Roger Nichols Digital and the affects of this relationship on you. All of the statements in this message are true to Elemental Audio's best knowledge at the time of writing. However, some of the items discussed in this message could be affected by circumstances or parties outside of Elemental Audio's control.





--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #300676 - 22/05/06 01:49 AM
Quote Max The Mac:

Email delivery a little while ago.

I would however add that i have NO problem with the use of iLok , which is an eminently sensible move...

perhaps the ONLY one in this entire situation.

Copy protection is a defacto requirement these days,





There is one MAJOR problem with this: iLok does not offer any copy protection whatsoever. I think it was Scott Realms from liquid DAW that used to email Waves each time they released a new plugin or a new version of their plugins. The very day it was commercially available, it was also available cracked on P2P networks.

Syncrosoft is a different story ...

Copy protection is indeed a good thing but it has to work. iLok doesn't and just punishes ligitimate paying customers.

iLok = bad.

UnderTow


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300678 - 22/05/06 02:02 AM
ARGH! I just read Mr Nichols' article for this month. At least I read the bit about 64 bit. He could have actually checked what CakeWalk Sonar does. It supports both Windows 64 bit AND has a 64 bit floating point audio engine.

Also, 64 bit processors running a 32 bit OS are actually a touch faster due to the larger registries.

This guy is not an asset to SOS.

UnderTow


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Shaun Dark]
      #300682 - 22/05/06 03:25 AM
Quote Shaun Dark:

Quote Music Manic:

Quote:



With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all




Why am I talking crap?
Why do most people talk like they know it all when we're supposed to be knocking off eachother.

I'm saying however he did it he's made more sales than any track for a while and we all know that sales have dropped not just because of piracy but because of bad music.

There was a drum and bass track I was after for ages.I kept hearing it but no mention of what it was.Now how the hell am I supposed to buy it?
When I found out who it was by it was deleted,so the only way I could get it was how???

So how would you defeat piracy?

Also I've been into music for 20 year and have made little.
So what?

You keep blaming it on piracy.Why?

People in IT can't find jobs easily now,why?Oh it must be piracy.No it's saturated mate.

You think they couldn't stop piracy tomorrow if they wanted to?

You need to chill out.

P.S. You think somebody couldn't make a hit out of your or my track if they wanted to? What makes you or I so special?




To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.


And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy?
No,actually found it on vinyl
Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.
And how much would that cost to firms?
And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.
Quite simple if you think about it.
If two people or two thousand people do the same thing who would have the better profit margin plus more of a chance getting a job


I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

Isn't it spelt metaphor?Don't you mean analogy(Your credibilty is sinking fast)?To answer your analogy,we don't employ anybody,and it's the company's responsibilty to protect themselves.
Thank you for making it so simple that I could grasp it


And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?
No,just lateral thinking again but thought your brilliance would have grasped it.
Your link isn't up btw so that should answer your question.


I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling
No,no mispelt words but you seem to understand everything I say.Admittedly English isn't my forte but neither is yours.
We are talking about music and it's and art.The most talented people understand things in their own language.
You feel that being articulate is proof of your intelligence.
Would you like me to teach you how to pronounce those Greek words properly that you most definitely get wrong when using them in English.Quite funny!
What have I learnt from you?Nothing.
Why do I waste my time?Like a bit of banter I suppose.
Round three





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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #300685 - 22/05/06 04:24 AM
Re dongles and iLock.

When I purchase a product I accept full personal responsibility for it. In the case of serial number protected software, it is 100% my responsibility to keep the serial number in a safe place. I can write it down in more than one place if I want to and even if my computer gets stolen, I can always reinstall the software on a new computer by simply referring to the serial number I have safely stored; that’s the application of my personal responsibility. It also doesn’t restrict my freedom to use the software I went to the trouble of legally purchasing (yes, I know it’s a licence and I don’t actually ‘own’ it).

On the other hand, dongles, and iLock specifically, take away my personal responsibility and place it in the hands of the software seller. If my computer gets stolen (with the dongle hanging off the back) then I have to claim on my insurance and buy the software again…all fine and dandy… that is of course provided the software is still available. The company could of: gone out of business, no longer supports my software (cheers Apple), charges FOUR TIMES more than what I could legally insure my dongle ‘protected’ (hasn’t worked yet) software for…

Dongles not only remove my personal responsibility but they also place severe restrictions on how I can use what I’ve gone to the trouble to legally purchase.

Those are some of the reasons why I am uncomfortable with dongles and actively avoid purchasing software products that employ such restrictive copy protection – ‘copy protection’ ha! Such an oxymoronic phrase.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: cebenezer]
      #300686 - 22/05/06 04:26 AM
Quote cebenezer:


So, today I can get a new version of any of those with a worse user interface, a clumsy and non-transparent rights protection system for twice the price - and the upgrade cost will probably be equivalent to the price of the original EA plugins given the scale up.






It’s a good idea to read previous posts before adding to a thread.

As has already been said, $169 to $698 is just over FOUR TIMES the price, not twice.

It’s also obvious you didn’t bother to read the post directly above the one you made in the Elemental Review in the user reports section either.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #300687 - 22/05/06 04:30 AM
Yes, I received that EA email last night too Max… horse, stable door and bolted immediately spring to mind. With a little forethought and pre-emptive PR work EA could so easily have avoided this attempt at damage limitation. Their vague statement about upgrade pricing (“(e.g. $20 or so)”) doesn’t inspire confidence; the price should have been fixed before they sent out the email. Not that the idea of upgrading appeals to me… I don’t think I can face inserting such stupidly named plug-ins in a track and having Roger Nichols name thrust in my face too.

Unfortunately, the customer/company trust relationship has been damaged; possibly fatally… look what happened to Gerald Ratner.

This bit from their email says it all: “However, some of the items discussed in this message could be affected by circumstances or parties outside of Elemental Audio's control.”

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #300692 - 22/05/06 04:52 AM
One more thing...

Quote:

We have received many requests to add support for iLok copy protection over the years, so many customers should be pleased by this change.




Yeah right…and I’m a hamster with a taste for space travel.


--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #300700 - 22/05/06 05:49 AM
Quote Tim Rainey:

This bit from their email says it all: “However, some of the items discussed in this message could be affected by circumstances or parties outside of Elemental Audio's control.”





And who's to blame for that, except the EA guys who sold control over their product in this manner? Because no kidding, that's exactly what it means when selling one's assets: you lose the ability to control the asset you've sold.

All of this strongly suggests that EA wrote good software but didn't know jack about how to run a software business. These two qualities obviously are entirely different skill-sets. The EA guys clearly didn't know how to properly set prices for their wares, and didn't know how to protect their IP (although I'm no fan of iLok, either). If EA actually knew how to run a successful business, they probably wouldn't have felt compelled to sell their assets to Roger Nichols.

But how ironic so many of you are whining about the price increase while admitting that EA software was clearly under-priced (I see comments like "I would've paid twice the price for the software", etc). Well, sure, I'd love it if ALL companies set their prices way too low (which absolutely kills profit margins), or better yet, just gave away their products (I love those "Free iPod" ads you see). But guess what? It's short-sided to want prices so low that the company can't stay in business, and guess what happens to support when they go under?

Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.

Like someone said, too many people operate with a sense of entitlement, thinking they deserve everything on the cheap without paying a fair share. Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.

So shut up and quit yer bitchin: you all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.

PS keep bashing Nichols and trying to drive away potential buyers, with your know-it-all sniping and juvenile rants, and before long even the level of transitional support being offered by EA and RND will no doubt evaporate, too. You guys just don't get it: Nichols seemingly is bailing EA out from going completely tits-up...

Chris


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #300704 - 22/05/06 06:22 AM
Well, the explanatory email they sent around (copied by Max) sheds a bit more light on this murky affair, but as Tim says - why didn't they explain this all a bit better AT THE SAME TIME AS making the announcement as opposed to 48 damaging hours later?

Anyway, I remain unconvinced by the following statements contained in it regarding the "benefits of the RND-EA relationship":

"Roger Nichols Digital (RND) products have much to offer."
Sounds good - tell me more...

"RND products will be distributed by a network of independent dealers and distributers..."
This is a Stoneage business model for most software today - why would anyone take this option if the product is available direct? If you do it right, surely it is far easier and more economical to sell and maintain software on-line, rather than adding an uneccessary layer of administration by expecting customers to go via a 3rd party?

"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?

"The products will include printed documentation..."
What is wrong with PDF versions (especially if it keeps overheads down)? Surely users can always print their own and stick it in a binder?

"In addition to the software itself, they will have the benefit of the experience of an accomplished engineer and producer, which should result in improved usability for you."
All due respect to Roger Nichols' skills as an engineer, but usability of EA plug-ins was fine - the clarity of the GUI was a major factor in why I bought them in the first place! Are you saying that now I need Roger Nichols to tell me how to adjust the settings on EQ software I've been using for over a year?

"...as well as presets developed by Roger Nichols"
Um... do I need presets? How will Roger Nichols know which EQ bands to adjust in my tracks without hearing them?

"And these are just a few of the benefits to you of the Roger Nichols Digital and Elemental Audio relationship."
Hmm... none apparent to me so far - am I missing something?


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ChrisCarter
member


Joined: 23/09/02
Posts: 516
Loc: In the studio or on the road.....
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300713 - 22/05/06 07:43 AM
This story is pretty newsworthy and generating A LOT of interest, can someone from SOS editorial please interview RD for some 'horses mouth' comments and insights? I'd also be interested to know why he thinks "Bitchinizer" is a good name for a so called pro plugin.

PS
I just popped over to Roger's own forums, guess what? he's shut it down.
Slight possibilty that too many negative comments were being posted would be my guess.
.

--------------------
Web Site | Twitter | iTunes


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #300714 - 22/05/06 07:50 AM
Quote James Lehmann:


"In addition to the software itself, they will have the benefit of the experience of an accomplished engineer and producer, which should result in improved usability for you."
All due respect to Roger Nichols' skills as an engineer, but usability of EA plug-ins was fine - the clarity of the GUI was a major factor in why I bought them in the first place! Are you saying that now I need Roger Nichols to tell me how to adjust the settings on EQ software I've been using for over a year?




Maybe this is the sort of thing they mean by ‘improved usability’?



From his site at: http://www.rndigital.com/index.html

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #300717 - 22/05/06 08:01 AM
Quote:

So shut up and quit yer bitchin:




Feefer, you have expressed your opinion; I have no idea why you believe you have the right to tell other people they aren’t allowed to express theirs!


--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300724 - 22/05/06 08:16 AM
Hi Feefer, don't agree with your post at all. You are talking about wonderful businesses versus stingy musicians - you are so wrong. If you are a professional musician you are also in business and people are always trying to knock our prices down aswell. How many lame excuses have musicians heard in an attempt to get us to reduce our rates? The problems software companies face, I also face.
I am not a school kid on my parents computer doing music for fun, this is how I earn my living and I am under the same business pressure as anyone else. I will tell you something else in this country - it is cheaper to hire a musician with all his equipment than it is just to hire the equipment from a hire firm, that's how far our prices have been driven down.
Iunderstand how these businesses feel because I am under the same pressure. Maybe you're one of these people that thinks music isn't real work whereas business is. I've certainly met plenty of those.


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-=@(*_*)@=-
member


Joined: 18/03/03
Posts: 471
Loc: Earth / Solar System
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300727 - 22/05/06 08:22 AM
These days, it is very fashionable to hear "rude" stuff, Hip Hop music for instance... So the "BITCHINIZER" is going to appeal to some new "wannabe" cool + rude guys... That is were the industry is going ...

Then you get things like Mackie, named "BIG KNOB"! I bet soon there will be
a SOFTWARE version, so when you place your order, you'll be asked: "do you want a HARD one or a SOFT one ! LOL ... AND there will a BITCH taking your order on phone

Then, I predict, someone is going to come up with a NEW PLUGIN called the
BUT PLUG !!! This one will be OPTIMIZED and designed from the ground to improve your BOTTOM END Big time LOL

Anyway, what can you do ... have a dreenk or a spleeff and forget about it, life goes on ... there are more important thing to deal with in this world ...

In some interview, soon, you will read stories like: "when tracking my Misses vocal, I post process with the new Bitchinizer, it gives her so much attitude you know... LOL

Take care and take it EZEE guys... life can be very STIFF if you have a BIG KNOB

www.topfloormix.com

--------------------
-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/


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Sonicus



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 245
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300741 - 22/05/06 09:00 AM


I Guess You do not use Elemental audio stuff Eh?
Quote Feefer:


Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.




Where did you get that idea from I think 'most' customers are fully prepared to pay companies a reasonable 'profit'. It is those that use and create cracks who are completely oblivious to the concept of 'Fair Trade', they are ignorant. lazy and imho suck the life from the affluent and democratic society's they enjoy living in.


Quote Feefer:

Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.




'Parasitized'
is an interesting way of describing sincere customers who bought a Plugin for the price that was being charged for it - I guess you think that all customers must apply some kind of 'predictive' foresight into their consumerism - they must think 'hmmm.... this plugin is unreasonably cheap for how good it is let me offer to pay more, much more.

What an idiotic thing to say. I as a customer have no interest in 'speculating' whether a company may go out of business because they are selling their plugs too cheap, my role is to pay what I am asked.

You are 'blaming' the customers for the demise of EAU (that is funny)


Quote Feefer:

You all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.




You think that Roger Tickles has the has the right idea about the 'value' of these plugs do you, The true 'value' of the plugs and company are hanging by a very thin thread at the moment and that is in NO WAY down to legitimate, sincere, paying cusomers.

Quote Feefer:

So shut up and quit yer bitchin




So you are telling us to all throw away our 'Bitchinizers' now are you, phew thanks for that, 'cos for a moment their I thought that Mr Roger Tickles had hired you as his Chief PR Guru.


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300772 - 22/05/06 10:20 AM
There's an interesting question in all this which Tim touches on: what's the status of my (business) insurance policy? I have documentary evidence of having bought some software for say $160 and now to replace it, if my studio burns down, I would need to spend $600.

I don't think any general insurance policy would give me more than $160.

Feefer, stop trying to speak for all of us. One person said they would have been willing to pay twice as much for EA products. Everyone else liked the product at the price it was offered, and that's how markets work.

Having bought the product, to learn that it will not henceforth be supported (except at substantial cost) is not only insulting, it may also be illegal, at least in the UK.

I hope Nichols has paid substantially over the odds for the EA assets, and the original EA team have got a decent wedge in return for their efforts over the years. I hope Nichols has had to borrow the money to buy the business. I hope his future sales are zero, the banks call in his loans, he goes bankrupt, and he never darkens our doors again.

Sadly however we seem to live in a world where people don't get their just desserts!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300812 - 22/05/06 11:26 AM
Hi Steve, again I find myself agreeing with everything you said. Perhaps SOS could loose RN's column and replace it with something else. Perhaps there could be a guest ME every month. I for one have learnt so much on this forum from Neil Wight, Massive Mastering, James Perrett (and apologies to others whose names I haven't mentioed) so maybe MEs like them could do it.


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300839 - 22/05/06 12:03 PM
Exhibit A
George Massenburg - famous recording engineer turned product designer, designs and builds his own legendary series of hardware and software from the ground up

Exhibit B
Roger Nichols - famous recording engineer turned product designer, buys up someone else's product designs, dumbs it down, triples the price and rebadges it under his own name

There's something not quite right about this.


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #300853 - 22/05/06 12:13 PM
Quote Feefer:



All of this strongly suggests that EA wrote good software but didn't know jack about how to run a software business. These two qualities obviously are entirely different skill-sets.





This is pure assumption on your part. Obviously someone thought it was worth buying them so it can't be all bad.

Quote:


The EA guys clearly didn't know how to properly set prices for their wares, and didn't know how to protect their IP (although I'm no fan of iLok, either).





Nor does Roger Nichols or any company that uses iLok: iLok offers little or no protection.

Quote:


If EA actually knew how to run a successful business, they probably wouldn't have felt compelled to sell their assets to Roger Nichols.





Again pure assumption on your part. Maybe Roger Nichols offered them alot of money and they got $ signs in their eyes ...

Quote:


But how ironic so many of you are whining about the price increase while admitting that EA software was clearly under-priced (I see comments like "I would've paid twice the price for the software", etc).





There were a few comments like that but there were also many comments saying that they wouldn't pay for the new price.

Don't get fooled by companies like Waves that overcharge for their products. Those are not valid prices either.

Anyway, what makes you think that you know what the right price for a product is? Voxengo lowered their allready very reasonable prices recently ...

Quote:


It's short-sided to want prices so low that the company can't stay in business, and guess what happens to support when they go under?





Again assumption on your part. Do you have access to EA's financial details? If not, whence comes the arrogance of bitching to everyone when having no idea what you are talking about? (Hey, maybe you can write articles with Mr Nichols).

Quote:


Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.





This whole thread is about legitimate customers of Elemental Audio. I'm sure users of cracked software couldn't care less who owns the company and what the price of the products are. Although you are right about users of warez, your comment is irrelevant here.

Quote:


Like someone said, too many people operate with a sense of entitlement, thinking they deserve everything on the cheap without paying a fair share. Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.





Are you insane? People pay exactly the asking price for a product and you bitch at them? Talking about entitlement, who died and made you king?

Quote:


So shut up and quit yer bitchin: you all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.





Again pure assumption on your part. Pray tell, what makes you an expert on the value of EA plugins?

Quote:


PS keep bashing Nichols and trying to drive away potential buyers, with your know-it-all sniping and juvenile rants, and before long even the level of transitional support being offered by EA and RND will no doubt evaporate, too.





So? However regretfull this would be for EA customers, in the bigger picture and on the long term, this could be a good thing because it sends a message to companies that they can't just grossly overcharge for plugins and treat their legitimate customers like this. Well unless you are Waves ...

Quote:


You guys just don't get it: Nichols seemingly is bailing EA out from going completely tits-up...

Chris




Maybe you don't get it. Maybe Nichols is just overcharging massively. You have no idea what the financial situation of EA is/was.

It would be fine if you would have written your post as a clear speculation and not gone out to insult legitimate customers but as it stands, your post is foolish and arrogant to say the least.

UnderTow


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9309
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300855 - 22/05/06 12:14 PM
It's so sad that just as one gets belief and confidence in a market rife with competitive plugins, another company sells out to survive. This just undermines the consumers' buying confidence and does no good for the longevity of the software side of the industry. Be it bonafide due to losses, or a licenced market move, it all rocks the fragile confidence boat.

I wonder if existing, and future, manufacturers will provide a warranty against exactly this kind of situation?

Sadly, this just adds weight to the piracy camp's arguments, and for me, that is as sad as it can get.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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w oxo cube
member


Joined: 25/09/01
Posts: 323
Loc: W Yorks
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #300857 - 22/05/06 12:16 PM
Quote noiseconjecture:

Hi Steve, again I find myself agreeing with everything you said. Perhaps SOS could loose RN's column and replace it with something else. Perhaps there could be a guest ME every month. I for one have learnt so much on this forum from Neil Wight, Massive Mastering, James Perrett (and apologies to others whose names I haven't mentioed) so maybe MEs like them could do it.




yes,yes,yes tickles has lost alot of friends round here and writing for sos is like lee bowyer having a colum in sportsmanship weekly.


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Tímo



Joined: 25/09/02
Posts: 1828
Loc: Derby, England
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: w oxo cube]
      #300891 - 22/05/06 12:46 PM
Seems RND's forum has been taken offline:-

http://www.ioforums.net/forums/view_topic.php?id=290&forum_id=22

--------------------
http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300898 - 22/05/06 12:52 PM
Am I seeing things? I could have sworn that when I looked at Roger Nichols Digital website yesterday the plug-ins were $349 each - when I checked just now they are $249 each!

There's something very odd going on here, I think we should be told!


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #300933 - 22/05/06 01:36 PM
No James, you aren’t seeing things, they most certainly were $349 yesterday.

So instead of them being four times the price they are now only three times… whoopee.



--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Edited by Tim Rainey (22/05/06 01:37 PM)


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C_T
new member


Joined: 20/01/03
Posts: 540
Loc: London
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #300937 - 22/05/06 01:41 PM
Definately lowered the prices.

See the bitchin obviously works...

(runs for cover)

C

--------------------
Dual 2Ghz G5 2.5GB RAM, Logic Pro 7.2, Logic Control, MOTU 828mkII Drumkit from Hell C&V and Superior, EW QLSO Gold, Zebra and Cameleon, Melodyne Uno, Atmosphere, Max/MSP


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #300963 - 22/05/06 02:16 PM
To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.


The fact that you prefer to have a hard copy is not relevent to the point I'm making. Also Sugababes tracks are excellent when compared to some of the tripe that was around in the early 90s and late 80s.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy?
No,actually found it on vinyl

If you found it on vinyl then what point were you originally trying to make with that comment??

Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.
And how much would that cost to firms?

How should I know that's a stupid question. It's plainly obvious that some measures have to be taken because my generation are now in the habit of stealing intellectual properties. This is not a habit that will be easily broken.

And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.
Quite simple if you think about it.
If two people or two thousand people do the same thing who would have the better profit margin plus more of a chance getting a job


There have always been alot of people trying to make their way in music, the market has always been saturated. Thats not the problem.

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

Isn't it spelt metaphor?Don't you mean analogy(Your credibilty is sinking fast)?To answer your analogy,we don't employ anybody,and it's the company's responsibilty to protect themselves.
Thank you for making it so simple that I could grasp it


Very clever well done. I don't think my misspellings are as bad as your illegible sentence structures.

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?
No,just lateral thinking again but thought your brilliance would have grasped it.
Your link isn't up btw so that should answer your question.


What link? Here's a link to my latest effort you smug c**t

http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling
No,no mispelt words but you seem to understand everything I say.Admittedly English isn't my forte but neither is yours.
We are talking about music and it's and art.The most talented people understand things in their own language.
You feel that being articulate is proof of your intelligence.
Would you like me to teach you how to pronounce those Greek words properly that you most definitely get wrong when using them in English.Quite funny!
What have I learnt from you?Nothing.
Why do I waste my time?Like a bit of banter I suppose.
Round three








From your first post you started on a very negative note and I can't stand smart asses, especially if they're not actually smart

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Squarepeg



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 394
Loc: Somerset, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Shaun Dark]
      #300999 - 22/05/06 03:02 PM
Quote Shaun Dark:



http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3






Nice track! Although I don't think my Thinkpad speakers are doing it justice.


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301005 - 22/05/06 03:25 PM
Couldn't Roger Nichols have done us all a favour by buying Waves instead!


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LittleM



Joined: 15/06/05
Posts: 3
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301009 - 22/05/06 03:29 PM
y


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Squarepeg]
      #301010 - 22/05/06 03:29 PM
Quote Squarepeg:

Quote Shaun Dark:



http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3






Nice track! Although I don't think my Thinkpad speakers are doing it justice.




Cheers man

It does rather enjoy being played on a fat system

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Edited by Shaun Dark (22/05/06 03:31 PM)


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LittleM



Joined: 15/06/05
Posts: 3
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301012 - 22/05/06 03:33 PM
Do you just choose to only read and see what you want?

1. Fact: Elemental Audio did not sell their products or their company:
"Elemental Audio has entered into a partnership with Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"
"Elemental Audio will continue to exist as a separate entity"
"Elemental Audio will ... continue to develop audio related products"

2. It is interesting to see posts that on one hand talk about how great the company is, but then see those that devolve into saying the company was poorly run and went out of business. Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.' I've seen posts speculating that EA was offered $50k or some similar amount for all of their products - that is laughable at best.

3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

4. Fact: Some people do prefer iLoks. The fact that you choose to see this as a lie shows that you are out of touch with some of Elemental Audio's customer base, *not* that Elemental Audio is lying. An iLok is not only a protection device, it also provides an easy way to move authorizations around. Some of us actually need and desire this. Your lack of need or desire does not make the needs of others a figment of Elemental Audio's imagination.

5. Fact: Many people actually like printed documentation and boxed software, myself included. Real printed documentation - not the kind I have to print out and put in a binder myself.

6. Fact: Elemental Audio has stated that they will continue to provide support to customers for the foreseeable future. Despite this you all keep grumbling over the fact that you will no longer receive support - that you have been abandoned.

7. The pictures taken from Roger Nichols web site are obviously mock-ups. Note the fact that it is on quad-ruled graph paper - do you really think anyone would make a plug-in GUI with a background of quad-ruled graph paper? But, it's easier to speculate and condemn than to actually *ask* and find out the true answer - that would put an end to all the fun.

8. Any company has a right to shut down their forum if they choose. If I was Roger Nichols I would have shut it down too. Why in the world should a company let people come to their forum and trash it and leave it there? Taking it down is smart - not cowardice.

9. Fact: If you actually want an answer to some of your questions you have a better chance of getting one by actually asking those involved. But then again, we all don't want real answers do we?

10. Fact: A lot of people do want presets. If you can't imagine that, than I guess you are not in touch with that group of people. Look at the vast numbers of presets in many plug-ins. Do you think companies put them in for kicks or because that is what users want?

11. Facts: A lot of people do still buy software in actual stores. A lot of people actually like to receive something concrete with their purchase (i.e. a box, a disk). A lot of people like to purchase items from one dealer with whom they have a relationship. If that is not you - fine. That doesn't mean these other people do not exist or should be ignored.

These are facts. You can choose to believe them or not. That doesn't change the reality. It is easy to think everything and everyone is as it seems on the Internet. The truth is, what is said on the SOS, OSX Audio, KVR, etc. forums is not indicative of what every person thinks or feels or needs.

This is all so interesting. Elemental Audio was a great company, who treated their users great in many ways. That has been said so many times on many forums. But as soon as they enter a partnership where you cannot see the immediate value to yourself you bad mouth them, wish them ill, call them liars, etc. Talk about turncoats. What happened to the benefit of the doubt?

You all act as though EA killed your mother. How are you hurt by this ... really? You will still receive support. You will still receive the next version for free. You will be able to move to the Roger Nichols versions for a minimal price. The prices are higher, but so what? You don't have to buy your products again, so the price jump doesn't really affect you.

You talk about what this whole fiasco should teach companies. Maybe one of the things it will teach companies is that it doesn't matter how good you treat your customers they will shoot you down as soon as you do something that is not immediately of value to them.

How has Elemental Audio shafted us in the past? Did they make us pay for updates to move to new operating systems just to keep our products working? Nope. Did they charge for any updates at all? Nope - not even when they included new features. Did they ignore support requests or take weeks to respond? Nope. Did they leave long standing bugs in their software, taking forever to fix them? Nope.

And yet you string them up for the fire.

Shame on you.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Shaun Dark]
      #301014 - 22/05/06 03:34 PM
Quote Shaun Dark:

To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.


The fact that you prefer to have a hard copy is not relevent to the point I'm making. Also Sugababes tracks are excellent when compared to some of the tripe that was around in the early 90s and late 80s.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy?
No,actually found it on vinyl

If you found it on vinyl then what point were you originally trying to make with that comment??

Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.
And how much would that cost to firms?

How should I know that's a stupid question. It's plainly obvious that some measures have to be taken because my generation are now in the habit of stealing intellectual properties. This is not a habit that will be easily broken.

And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.
Quite simple if you think about it.
If two people or two thousand people do the same thing who would have the better profit margin plus more of a chance getting a job


There have always been alot of people trying to make their way in music, the market has always been saturated. Thats not the problem.

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

Isn't it spelt metaphor?Don't you mean analogy(Your credibilty is sinking fast)?To answer your analogy,we don't employ anybody,and it's the company's responsibilty to protect themselves.
Thank you for making it so simple that I could grasp it


Very clever well done. I don't think my misspellings are as bad as your illegible sentence structures.

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?
No,just lateral thinking again but thought your brilliance would have grasped it.
Your link isn't up btw so that should answer your question.


What link? Here's a link to my latest effort you smug c**t

http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling
No,no mispelt words but you seem to understand everything I say.Admittedly English isn't my forte but neither is yours.
We are talking about music and it's and art.The most talented people understand things in their own language.
You feel that being articulate is proof of your intelligence.
Would you like me to teach you how to pronounce those Greek words properly that you most definitely get wrong when using them in English.Quite funny!
What have I learnt from you?Nothing.
Why do I waste my time?Like a bit of banter I suppose.
Round three








From your first post you started on a very negative note and I can't stand smart asses, especially if they're not actually smart




Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #301025 - 22/05/06 03:54 PM
Quote Music Manic:



Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me




Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Squarepeg



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 394
Loc: Somerset, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #301026 - 22/05/06 03:54 PM
Quote Music Manic:



To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.





I don't really want to join in with the argument here (well, not until you kiss and make up anyway) but I am not sure I reaaly agree with that.

Most mainstream music has never been that great (with many exceptions).

Right now I think there is more great music around than I can ever remember and I buy more CDs than I did (records) 20 years ago.

However, it is not easy to find it. If I had to make do with the music I come into contact with through the mainstream media and record shops I would buy very few. I buy less than 5% of my CDs over the counter (although HMV made a big improvement when they took away all the music I really don't like and put it in it's own section called 'Urban' )

My personal take on this is that a big chunk of the lost sales reproted by the majors is down to the content they are turning out as much as piracy (though they would suggest otherwise).

I don't think this is the case in Dance. Leaving aside the crap that passes as dance in the mainstream the quality of output from the importnat dance lables is very high.

I really don't like copied music but this does not stop people I know from handing me copied CDs on a very regularly basis which I politely ask them not to do, though that is a tricky one.

The one exception is material that has been deleted. Much great dance material comes out on very small runs with no likelyhood of a reprint. I have copied such CDs for friends on (a few) occasions though if it is something I want I will track it down from the web or specialist shops.

I have no interest in downloads and will not until they are lossless CD quality.


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: LittleM]
      #301028 - 22/05/06 03:58 PM
Quote LittleM:



3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.






The price of the Firium/Eqium bundle was a total of $169. I checked that figure with EA before updating my Firium Eqium review and posting it on this forum in the user reports section on 1/03/06.

Yesterday, the price on the RND site was $349 FOR EACH Plug-in. There was no mention of a reduction for bundles.

Therefore it follows that 349 x 2 = $698 That is OVER 400%.

I don’t have the time or inclination to dissect your other so called ‘facts’.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: LittleM]
      #301038 - 22/05/06 04:14 PM
Little M, you appear to be brand new to this forum, your only two posts to date being above. Your profile says nothing about you or where you are save that you joined us on "01/01/70 01:00 AM", which I assume to mean some time this afternoon.

You appear to have an agenda to argue the EA/Roger Nichols corner. OK, debate is healthy and you are welcome to disagree.

But I think you owe it to all of us to explain who you are and what your agenda is. Otherwise I will probably not be alone in concluding you are just trolling for the sake of it. And that will just devalue any good points you might be making here.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: LittleM]
      #301041 - 22/05/06 04:18 PM
Quote LittleM:

These are facts...



With 1 post to your name you obviously registered under a pseudonym specifically to argue on this topic, and people will draw their own conclusions from that.

Anyway, you clearly like make a point by spouting what you call 'facts' and yet most of those you choose start with the line "Some people..." or "Most people..." or "A lot of people..." It looks impressive, but as any fule kno blanket assertions like this are meaningless unless backed up by some data.

Of your 'facts' that don't start in the unhelpful manner above I'm sure many of us would be interested in your reference for this one:
Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.'
Again, it's meaningless without qualification - like, who are you and where are the figures?

I don't wholly disagree with some of your text and I agree that some of the reaction has been a bit over-emotional, but you have the benefit of joining this discussion AFTER two critical things have happened and AFTER the rest of us first started discussing this issue:
1) Yesterday Elemental Audio published a generic email explaining some (not all) of the information we lacked
2) The new price has dropped by $100 since yesterday!

If we'd had these two pieces of information, then this thread would have been accordingly a bit different. So yes - the situation looks a bit better than it did on Saturday, but even so, many of us (investors don't forget) are angry and disturbed by the manner in which this transition was handled, and I suspect it is this 'fact' that has stirred up the hornets' nest more than any other.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Shaun Dark]
      #301091 - 22/05/06 05:26 PM
Quote Shaun Dark:

Quote Music Manic:



Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me




Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married




Haha,nice one.
I apologise if I came across as rude but this is the way that people are treated in music world,and I answer through other peoples views to keep it real.
Engineers can be the most viscious tongued people you can meet,and A&R can make you want to slit your wrists,but it goes with the territory.

When I talk about you or I being special,I'm not speaking from my point of view but these senseless people who know nothing about music and think our talents can be pushed to one side with no respect.

I deeply respect you having out with me and being honest.

You'll have to get down on one knee if you want me to say yes.

Btw is c**t an anagram of cute?

Catch you later buddy and I'll try and make myself clearer next time.
I can be a PITA sometime but intentions are genuine and honourable.Ask Hugh!


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Martin WalkerModerator
Watcher Of The Skies


Joined: 28/02/01
Posts: 17555
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #301093 - 22/05/06 05:34 PM
Quote Tim Rainey:

Maybe this is the sort of thing they mean by ‘improved usability’?



From his site at: http://www.rndigital.com/index.html




Is it just my vivid imagination, or has it occurred to anyone else that those bizarre 'graph-paper' Bitchin-izer plugin interfaces might be a hoax or even someone hacking into the Roger Nichols web site.

Try as I might, I simply find it hard to believe that any professional audio engineer could put his name to such 'my first GUI' designs. But then of course I could be totally wrong, and find that everyone else finds them a breath of fresh air.

So, is it me, or is that graphic interface a joke?


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ]
      #301094 - 22/05/06 05:37 PM
Quote Music Manic:


Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married




Haha,nice one.
I apologise if I came across as rude but this is the way that people are treated in music world,and I answer through other peoples views to keep it real.
Engineers can be the most viscious tongued people you can meet,and A&R can make you want to slit your wrists,but it goes with the territory.

When I talk about you or I being special,I'm not speaking from my point of view but these senseless people who know nothing about music and think our talents can be pushed to one side with no respect.

I deeply respect you having out with me and being honest.

You'll have to get down on one knee if you want me to say yes.

Btw is c**t an anagram of cute?

Catch you later buddy and I'll try and make myself clearer next time.
I can be a PITA sometime but intentions are genuine and honourable.Ask Hugh!




Fair enough mate we'll leave it there

Good fight

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301095 - 22/05/06 05:39 PM
Do you think LittleM is Mr. Nichols himself? The moniker LittleM would reflect his interest in aliens and the writing style is similar to the style in the current SOS.


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Sonicus]
      #301109 - 22/05/06 06:05 PM
Quote Noiseflaw:



I Guess You do not use Elemental audio stuff Eh?
Quote Feefer:


Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.




Where did you get that idea from I think 'most' customers are fully prepared to pay companies a reasonable 'profit'. It is those that use and create cracks who are completely oblivious to the concept of 'Fair Trade', they are ignorant. lazy and imho suck the life from the affluent and democratic society's they enjoy living in.


Quote Feefer:

Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.




'Parasitized'
is an interesting way of describing sincere customers who bought a Plugin for the price that was being charged for it - I guess you think that all customers must apply some kind of 'predictive' foresight into their consumerism - they must think 'hmmm.... this plugin is unreasonably cheap for how good it is let me offer to pay more, much more.

What an idiotic thing to say. I as a customer have no interest in 'speculating' whether a company may go out of business because they are selling their plugs too cheap, my role is to pay what I am asked.

You are 'blaming' the customers for the demise of EAU (that is funny)


Quote Feefer:

You all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.




You think that Roger Tickles has the has the right idea about the 'value' of these plugs do you, The true 'value' of the plugs and company are hanging by a very thin thread at the moment and that is in NO WAY down to legitimate, sincere, paying cusomers.

Quote Feefer:

So shut up and quit yer bitchin




So you are telling us to all throw away our 'Bitchinizers' now are you, phew thanks for that, 'cos for a moment their I thought that Mr Roger Tickles had hired you as his Chief PR Guru.




Sorry, no time to respond on a point-by-point basis, but please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't blame the customers: it should be clear I'm placing blame on incompetent business practices of EA.

Perhaps it was a bit too confusing for you, since I addressed legit customers and those who used cracked copies in the same post. You apparently missed the distinction I made by using the terms "consumer" vs "customer". Someone who uses a cracked copy IS a consumer, but shouldn't be considered as a "customer", since they didn't pay for it.

Quibble all you want, but the bottom line is this: EA relinquished control of some of their assets to someone else. Hopefully the entire entity doesn't go under, due to all of the public lynching/bashing, as then prior purchasers will have NO future support (including porting to Intel, or the next major OS update after to OS X 10.5, etc).

Then those of you who bought insurance can try filing a claim with your insurance company, and good luck trying to get payment because the title is no longer supported because you helped kill the enterprise. Friggin' geniuses.

Chris


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #301110 - 22/05/06 06:08 PM
Quote Martin Walker:

Try as I might, I simply find it hard to believe that any professional audio engineer could put his name to such 'my first GUI' designs. So, is it me, or is that graphic interface a joke?



What definitely isn't a joke is Roger Nichols' choice of logo for Dynam-izer (used to be Neodynium) that features an aircraft dropping bombs!

Does he really think that's a clever marketing idea in this (or any other) age of ceaseless global wars, and WTF does images of terrifying military hardware have to do with professional audio products?



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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301114 - 22/05/06 06:12 PM
Quote James Lehmann:

"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?




jeezus, did you forget about the little physical object known as a dongle? Oh, yeah....

Chris


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: UnderTow]
      #301122 - 22/05/06 06:23 PM
Quote UnderTow:

Again assumption on your part. Do you have access to EA's financial details? If not, whence comes the arrogance of bitching to everyone when having no idea what you are talking about? (Hey, maybe you can write articles with Mr Nichols).




Your rant (which I excerpted) makes my point entirely: all of you forum clowns have NO idea what's going on behind the scenes, and have no business ranting and raving based on YOUR assumptions, since it's all based on assumptions.

Stop to think a moment of alternatives instead of jumping to major conclusions.... Unless you're EA or RN, then you don't know the details as to why this occurred. So quit assuming the 'evil nefarious' motives, or at least admit them as being assumptions. The whining comes off as downright pathetic, the words of short-sided whiners...

Chris


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #301126 - 22/05/06 06:29 PM
Quote Feefer:

Quote James Lehmann:

"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?




jeezus, did you forget about the little physical object known as a dongle? Oh, yeah....

Chris



Dongles are the work of the Devil - allowing them to breed safely in cardboard boxes is a crime in itself.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301129 - 22/05/06 06:37 PM
No, "my first GUI" has been up there for weeks or months. If it's a joke, it's a lousy one and shows a total lack of professionalism in terms of the kind of website a proper business should be running (quite apart from what conclusions half the human race might draw from the name of the product).

Chris/Feefer: unless you know any inside facts, which I doubt, I can assure you I am wholly within my professional comfort zone in writing what follows.

Partly out of professional interest in my former life (liquidating bankrupt businesses), I've spent a few hours today researching this and checking out reactions in other forums. I would say the overwhelming body of opinion (99%) is hostile with - at the very least - a sizeable proportion of those people resolving to have nothing to do with the EA products, or indeed any Nichols products, ever again. Someone mentioned the Gerald Ratner precedent earlier, and this looks like another textbook study of how to ruin a business (or possibly two businesses) overnight through hubris.

If this is a "partnership" between EA and Nichols, why is the EA website reduced to 2 pages - one a tombstone linking to Nichols and one a legacy support relic? There's not even a "who are we" page any more. If that's not a sell-out or takeover I don't know what is.

I don't blame the EA guys if they took the money and ran. If they gave the business away for nothing (other than in greatly distressed circumstances) then they really are dumb.

Nichols' handling of the whole episode simply proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that as a public relations director of a corporate entity, he's - er - probably a good sound engineer. Whether he bought it or was given it, his handling of the matter has probably devalued it to almost zero in 48 hours flat.

He can't be unaware of the furore (he's taken down his own forums); he seems to have knocked $100 off the price overnight in a kneejerk reaction quite clearly unrelated to any form of business strategy that I ever studied (including one or two Harvard Business School courses). Maybe he's busy at AES in Paris?

When in a hole stop digging. He needs to make a statement, and try to reassure his existing (and hoped-for future) user base. That might even include using words like "sorry" and "cock-up". It's his only hope at this stage. Trying to brazen it out, or defend it as a good thing, in the face of a unanimously hostile reaction from customers will just add insult to injury. As will continued silence.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (22/05/06 06:40 PM)


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house-eey



Joined: 08/03/06
Posts: 74
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301130 - 22/05/06 06:38 PM
Quote James Lehmann:

What definitely isn't a joke is Roger Nichols' choice of logo for Dynam-izer (used to be Neodynium) that features an aircraft dropping bombs!

Does he really think that's a clever marketing idea in this (or any other) age of ceaseless global wars, and WTF does images of terrifying military hardware have to do with professional audio products?




So crazy.
Looks like a cheap game software.

I'm ready to throw my InspectorXL to trash bin.

--------------------
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http://house-eey.com/ | Facebook


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UnderTow
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Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: LittleM]
      #301133 - 22/05/06 06:45 PM
Quote LittleM:

Do you just choose to only read and see what you want?

1. Fact: Elemental Audio did not sell their products or their company:
"Elemental Audio has entered into a partnership with Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"
"Elemental Audio will continue to exist as a separate entity"
"Elemental Audio will ... continue to develop audio related products"





"All Elemental Audio products are now exclusively licensed and distributed by Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"

I think that is what worries people most.

Quote:


2. It is interesting to see posts that on one hand talk about how great the company is, but then see those that devolve into saying the company was poorly run and went out of business. Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.' I've seen posts speculating that EA was offered $50k or some similar amount for all of their products - that is laughable at best.





Agreed.

Quote:


3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.





The price dropped 100$ today. This morning it was still $349
so you must view posts in light of that. The bitching and moaning does seem to help though ...

Quote:


4. Fact: Some people do prefer iLoks. The fact that you choose to see this as a lie shows that you are out of touch with some of Elemental Audio's customer base, *not* that Elemental Audio is lying. An iLok is not only a protection device,





It is NOT a protection device despite what the company might be using as their marketing talk towards plugin developers. But yes, some people actually like these things. Syncrosoft, for instance, does a much better job of actually protecting software.

Quote:


it also provides an easy way to move authorizations around. Some of us actually need and desire this. Your lack of need or desire does not make the needs of others a figment of Elemental Audio's imagination.





Entirely agreed. Even on Internet forums, many people request iLoks for stuff. I think they are insane but that is a different thing than claiming that EAS is lying.

Quote:


5. Fact: Many people actually like printed documentation and boxed software, myself included. Real printed documentation - not the kind I have to print out and put in a binder myself.





True although I am against it because of enviromental issues.

Quote:


6. Fact: Elemental Audio has stated that they will continue to provide support to customers for the foreseeable future. Despite this you all keep grumbling over the fact that you will no longer receive support - that you have been abandoned.





Again, alot of comments were made before EAS mailed customers with more info. It would have been smart for RND and EAS to coordinate this better.

Anyway, "foreseeable future" doesn't really say much. I can understand if customers are not entirely reassured yet.

Quote:


7. The pictures taken from Roger Nichols web site are obviously mock-ups. Note the fact that it is on quad-ruled graph paper - do you really think anyone would make a plug-in GUI with a background of quad-ruled graph paper? But, it's easier to speculate and condemn than to actually *ask* and find out the true answer - that would put an end to all the fun.





Some of the comments are indeed about those pics but many comments are about the "new" RND versions of the EAS plugins.

Quote:


8. Any company has a right to shut down their forum if they choose. If I was Roger Nichols I would have shut it down too. Why in the world should a company let people come to their forum and trash it and leave it there? Taking it down is smart - not cowardice.





Partly agreed. They could also actually respond to the comments in a way similar to the EAS mailout. I would call this bad PR planning and management like the late mailout from EAS.

Quote:


9. Fact: If you actually want an answer to some of your questions you have a better chance of getting one by actually asking those involved. But then again, we all don't want real answers do we?





True.

Quote:


10. Fact: A lot of people do want presets. If you can't imagine that, than I guess you are not in touch with that group of people. Look at the vast numbers of presets in many plug-ins. Do you think companies put them in for kicks or because that is what users want?





I have feeling that alot of people that do want presets are not so likely to want to pay the new prices. I could be wrong of course ...

Quote:


11. Facts: A lot of people do still buy software in actual stores. A lot of people actually like to receive something concrete with their purchase (i.e. a box, a disk). A lot of people like to purchase items from one dealer with whom they have a relationship. If that is not you - fine. That doesn't mean these other people do not exist or should be ignored.





Partly agreed.

Quote:


These are facts. You can choose to believe them or not. That doesn't change the reality. It is easy to think everything and everyone is as it seems on the Internet. The truth is, what is said on the SOS, OSX Audio, KVR, etc. forums is not indicative of what every person thinks or feels or needs.





There is an OVERWHELMING amount of negative reactions to this new situation on EVERY forum. More so than I have seen in any other buy out or whatever. I would say that that IS indicative of the mood of EAS customers.

The comment of "you can choose to believe ..." applies to you too.

Quote:


This is all so interesting. Elemental Audio was a great company, who treated their users great in many ways. That has been said so many times on many forums. But as soon as they enter a partnership where you cannot see the immediate value to yourself you bad mouth them, wish them ill, call them liars, etc. Talk about turncoats. What happened to the benefit of the doubt?





Again I would attribute most of this to very bad PR about the change. And even with info in the EAS email, people are not sure how this will all pan out in the future and upgrades will need an iLok. This is compounded by the recent discount offer. I understand the outrage.

Quote:


You talk about what this whole fiasco should teach companies. Maybe one of the things it will teach companies is that it doesn't matter how good you treat your customers they will shoot you down as soon as you do something that is not immediately of value to them.





Lack of good communication is not a good way to treat customers. Again, the comment of "you can choose to believe ..." applies to you too as you also have no idea where this will all end up.

Quote:


How has Elemental Audio shafted us in the past? Did they make us pay for updates to move to new operating systems just to keep our products working? Nope. Did they charge for any updates at all? Nope - not even when they included new features.





People don't know what is going to happen with the new deal nor do you. I understand if people are a bit worried and/or angry.

Again, the overwhelming majority of comments are negative. You can choose to ignore that and assume that everyone that hasn't posted is more than happy about the change but that isn't any better or any more realistic than what you accuse others of.

UnderTow


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franjipane
member


Joined: 24/04/04
Posts: 25
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301135 - 22/05/06 06:45 PM
Hi folks,

Yes I agree Martin, that Gui is so bad it must either be a joke or a hack! Possibly just a mock up design but the accompanying blurb doesn't seem to back that up.

Anyway, setting aside the name changes and price hikes, how does all this affect SOS as a magazine (and me as a regular reader)? I know Roger's articles for SOS aren't reviews but regardless, he is a writer for the magazine and at some point, his plugins will be called up for a review. This has highly questionable connotations IMHO. And now that one of the SOS contributers has his own plugin company what impact will that have on reviews from other magazines?

Thanks.

Edited by franjipane (22/05/06 06:46 PM)


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301136 - 22/05/06 06:47 PM
Hey, I agree. But I was just pointing out the little point you overlooked about why there's a need for physical distribution (which adds to the hassle factor and costs).

I hate dongles, and even moreso, the draconian policies some software companies misguidedly use to protect their intellectual property (saying they won't replace the dongle if it is lost/stolen, etc). In fact, I've publicly stated I won't buy ANY more software that is dongle-protected.

(Dongles are not just annoying: USB dongles destabilize every Mac I've encountered, partly because of implementation of the USB standard on dongles that draws too much current from the buss, especially if the manufacturer strictly sticks to the USB protocol for ports as Apple does; bottom line is I have stability and sleep/wake problems, whether using a powered USB hub or not.)

Now it's my right as a consumer to choose to buy software with dongles or not, just as it's the right of a software company to decide to dongle-protect their IP vs. using some other method. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need any of it, as people wouldn't crack software. The world is not ideal...

Chris


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #301142 - 22/05/06 07:00 PM
Quote Feefer:

Unless you're EA or RN, then you don't know the details as to why this occurred. So quit assuming the 'evil nefarious' motives, or at least admit them as being assumptions.




DUH! That is more or less what I wrote in response to YOUR post.

UnderTow


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cebenezer



Joined: 08/02/05
Posts: 14
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: franjipane]
      #301143 - 22/05/06 07:01 PM
Quote franjipane:


Yes I agree Martin, that Gui is so bad it must either be a joke or a hack! Possibly just a mock up design but the accompanying blurb doesn't seem to back that up.





Perhaps his alien friends designed them for him ? :-)


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LittleM



Joined: 15/06/05
Posts: 3
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #301146 - 22/05/06 07:10 PM
Quote Tim Rainey:

Quote LittleM:



3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.






The price of the Firium/Eqium bundle was a total of $169. I checked that figure with EA before updating my Firium Eqium review and posting it on this forum in the user reports section on 1/03/06.

Yesterday, the price on the RND site was $349 FOR EACH Plug-in. There was no mention of a reduction for bundles.

Therefore it follows that 349 x 2 = $698 That is OVER 400%.






Let's compare apples with apples. And I'm talking about the price listed today ($249), which you stated earlier is 3 times as much...

Firium and Eqium were $129 individually from Elemental Audio. They are $249 individually from Roger Nichols Digital. $129 is more than half of $249, so the plug-ins do not cost twice as much based on individual prices.

If you bought the Firium and Eqium bundle from Elemental Audio for $169: The same two products will cost three times as much from Roger Nichols, yes. Then again, that is buying them individually from Roger Nichols and not as part of a bundle, so is not really comparing apples with apples. Comparing the cost of the bundle to the individual plug-ins is not a valid comparison to me when a more direct comparison (individual plug-ins to individual plug-ins) is available. It remains to be seen whether Roger Nichols Digital will offer any bundles that will equate to a lesser price.


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: franjipane]
      #301149 - 22/05/06 07:13 PM
Quote franjipane:

...how does all this affect SOS as a magazine (and me as a regular reader)? I know Roger's articles for SOS aren't reviews but regardless, he is a writer for the magazine and at some point, his plugins will be called up for a review. This has highly questionable connotations IMHO. And now that one of the SOS contributers has his own plugin company what impact will that have on reviews from other magazines?




I was wondering about that. It's one thing to have a controversial-but-multiple-grammy sound engineer writing for the mag; colourful even. It's another thing to know he's a significant software provider.

How does that knowledge sit with the theory he propounds in the current issue that you don't need analogue summing boxes, you just need to know how to use software properly? It's a very short step from there to concluding the subtext is "so buy my software".

Do I believe he was not deep into negotiations with EA when he wrote his latest column? Hmmm....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4364
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301167 - 22/05/06 07:37 PM
OT . . . My 2 USB dongles (Logic7 and Peak 5) are OK on my iMac . . .

Back to the ongoing story . . .

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Sonicus



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 245
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301171 - 22/05/06 07:42 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


How does that knowledge sit with the theory he propounds in the current issue that you don't need analogue summing boxes, you just need to know how to use software properly? It's a very short step from there to concluding the subtext is "so buy my software".




Yes interesting point - although I guess he is a 'guest' columnist and it's not really too bad to have a colourful character 'preaching' to the discerning audio masses - it gets things lively.

However things have become just a bit too lively at present.

I look forward to reading Mr Nichols next article......


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: LittleM]
      #301199 - 22/05/06 08:27 PM
Quote LittleM:



And I'm talking about the price listed today ($249)





And you were responding to people that were NOT talking about today's prices. So you twist the subject and then claim you are right?

Quote:


Then again, that is buying them individually from Roger Nichols and not as part of a bundle, so is not really comparing apples with apples.





If someone wanted to buy both plugins on friday they had to pay a certain amount. If somone wanted to buy those same plugins on saturday they had to pay another price that was more than 400% more epxensive.

The fact that RND doesn't offer the bundle isn't a valid argument. On the contrary, it shows they RND is much more greedy which is part of the point of this whole topic.

Stop twisting things to your advantage. You made the exact same misstake as you claim others were making but are not big enough to admit that some of your claims were wrong.

Quote:


It remains to be seen whether Roger Nichols Digital will offer any bundles that will equate to a lesser price.




Sure but on saturday and sunday, when most of the comments were made, there was no bundle from RND. You can argue as much as you want and use as much rethoric as you want but
it won't change anything about the actual price people have to pay for both plugins together. That is part of the reason people are bitching at RND.

UnderTow


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kubrick2001



Joined: 23/06/05
Posts: 67
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Sonicus]
      #301205 - 22/05/06 08:40 PM
Personally i find it is going to the good direction. The prices are lowered to 249$. EA will continue to develop new plugs. If he gonna do some special package deal he's back in business.


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301224 - 22/05/06 09:07 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


How does that knowledge sit with the theory he propounds in the current issue that you don't need analogue summing boxes, you just need to know how to use software properly?





Interestingly enough, he doesn't actually talk about analogue vs digital summing. He talks about analogue and digital mixing/clipping which isn't exactly the same thing. He seems to have missunderstood the question.

Mr Nichols went off on a tangent in answering two of the questions that he was asked. (I didn't read the microphone answer yet so I have no idea how he treated that question).

UnderTow


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301241 - 22/05/06 09:30 PM
For anyone that didn't receive it, this is the email we all got from Elemental Audio offering cheap plug-ins only FOUR WEEKS before they announced the sell-out to Roger Nichols Digital.

"Ill-timed" they say; "Uncannily prescient" I say.

The gist of it is: "Quick - last chance to buy our soon-to-be-obsolete plug-ins at a reduced rate as we've sold out and are shutting up shop in four weeks (although we're not going to tell you that yet)!"

[On a side-note - as an EA customer who already invested in their whole plug-in suite, this 'special offer' contained no reward at all for me, and yet surely I'm a gold-star customer? It would be a bit like an Airline saying "Our best customers are not those with the most Air Miles but the ones with less than 50,000 so we're giving this group a one-time bonus of 20,000".]


From : Elemental Audio
Sent : Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:45 AM
To : jameslehmann@hotmail.com
Subject : We're showing our customer appreciation

Hello,

Do you know how much we appreciate having you as a customer? We sure hope so. If you don't already know how much we appreciate you, we aim to show you.

====================================
Any plug-in, 1 low price:
====================================
http://www.elementalaudio.com/cgi-bin/arp3/arp3-t.pl?l=13&c=23756


In the past, we've tried to show you how important you are to us by:

(1) Providing you with great products at fair prices,
(2) Resolving any issues with our products as swiftly as possible,
(3) Addressing your inquiries in a timely manner,
(4) Offering you great discounts on newly released products, and
(5) Giving full consideration to your ideas and suggestions

Right now, because of your requests, we're also showing you how important you are to us in an additional way - by giving you the opportunity to purchase the Elemental Audio plug-in of your choice for one low price. If you have been waiting for the opportunity to enlarge your plug-in collection, this is the time. The value of this offer is dependent on you and the product you choose.

====================================
Select your plug-in now:
====================================
http://www.elementalaudio.com/cgi-bin/arp3/arp3-t.pl?l=13&c=23756


Our long time customers know that we do not offer specials like this very often; in fact, this is a first. We've taken note of requests that existing customers be allowed to purchase additional products at a discount. You spoke, we listened and took action, and you reap the benefit.

====================================
Access your reduced pricing:
====================================
http://www.elementalaudio.com/cgi-bin/arp3/arp3-t.pl?l=13&c=23756


If you want to receive your savings, we encourage you to complete your purchase as soon as possible. We cannot guarantee that this offer will remain available or be repeated. So, go on and get that Elemental Audio plug-in you've had in mind, at the customer price you deserve.

This is just one more way we are showing you how much we appreciate your
support, kind words, and referrals. We will continue to look for ways to express our appreciation and to improve our service to you.

As always, we are ready to receive your feedback. If you have comments at any time, please write to let us know. As this offer indicates - we pay close attention to your suggestions.


** Special Notes **
Will expire, but expiration date has not yet been determined. This Customer Appreciation special allows you to purchase one (1) Elemental Audio plug-in at a reduced price. You must use the links in this message to make your purchase. If you have questions, please contact < cs@elementalaudio.com >.


Thank you, from all of us -

Your Elemental Audio Systems Team

------------------------------------
Customer Service
cs@elementalaudio.com

Elemental Audio Systems
http://www.elementalaudio.com


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301260 - 22/05/06 09:54 PM
It'll probably all get sorted in the end... but it does confirm my 'attitude' towards software (as against hardware). I only really expect to get about 3 years worth of work out of any of these packages, assuming they all work well enough not to need updating every month for reliability issues , etc.

When it's upgrade-the-computer time I'll hope that I'll be able to port everything across, but I don't necessarily assume that this is always going to be possible- in general I don't buy the really expensive stuff (you may as well buy hardware at those prices) and i treat the software as exactly what it is- a 'rental license' for use of certain tools that I treat far more as temporary items than permanent residents of the studio, and in today's world you can't always be sure the company will still be there to support the product, when you want to upgrade your system. I still use a SCI Prophet VS synth, and the company died 20 years or so ago- doesn't mean the synth isn't useful !

It's still your hardware(ie your computer) that makes the software work- and I'd say it's not necessarily the software company's responsibility to 'exist' forever, if you choose to change or upgrade the hardware for which you bought the software. It'll work, regardless of the existence of the company (and you keep copies), for as long as you use your current computer, so there's no real problem, as long as you keep the computer... which I tend to do. I still have my old G3, as a 'closed' system, purely to access the old OS 9 plug-ins on it, (not that it happens much!) I'll probably keep my current G5, too, if only as a Logic node or VSL sample playback machine... and to use my 'proper' (as against a Nichols version) EA plug-ins!

So although I think it's a shame that EA's elegant interface seems to be going all Playstation, and the chances are that in 3 years time I won't be able to run Neodynium on my new G6(or G7), (if EA/Nichols don't manage to keep their support running), it's not the end of the world... by then I'm sure there'll be better equivalents I can get into, and it's up to me to use the software I have now, to earn the cash to buy the newer stuff, in the future.

Software is generally relatively cheap and works pretty well- but if you want the kind of 'absolute' ownership of tools that are going to be yours forever, the choice really has to be hardware.

best

tomafd

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301266 - 22/05/06 10:08 PM
just for perspective.

I have an entirely different view on a LOT of things from James Lehmann.

iLok. I'm generally in favour.

Prequel discount., I think there's a misunderstanding here.... it's equally likely that this was a desperate effort to raise some much needed cashflow... I'm NOT saying that it was, just that it's equally likely as james rather cynical view.



there's a lot of rather over emotional spouting of horse dung about the entire subject , by many on all sides.

I lament the day they felt it necessary to yield to Mr Nichol's offer, whatever it was...

but I'm certainly not about to bang on bitterly and repeatedly about the things about this situation which have no power to change , that i happen not to like much....

and having looked at the current "New" GUI shots... I add that they're not significantly different barring the RND additions.


In addition, I'd add that the acquisition By Roger Nichols is unlikely to have the slightest effect on the standards of review set by SOS, which would never kow tow it's standards or opinion just because someone writes a column for them... or advertises with them, or whatever.,... and as these plug ins have all (I think) been covered already, they are IMHO (NOTE I'm not privy to any inside editorial info, I'm just expressing my opinion, so i may well be utterly wrong) unlikely to get a revisit review unless they undergo significant operational redesign...

or at least that's the way the cookie has generally crumbled in the past.

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Steve Hill
member


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301273 - 22/05/06 10:29 PM
The guy I feel for - if he exists - is the one who missed out buying at $129 on Friday, paid $349 on Saturday or Sunday, only to find he could have bought at $249 on Monday.

I mean come on, if you made a living writing Whitehall farces you could not have scripted this. This is supposed to make us feel all warm and cuddly about doing business with them in future, right? Or am I misreading the situation?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301281 - 22/05/06 10:39 PM
I entirely agree Steve.,...

I'm not about to try and make ANYONE feel warm and cuddly, ( bar the mrs... )

I don't like it, I don't like it one bit.... I just thought some people might be foaming at the mouth a little too much...

didn't Yes Primeminister have an episode like this??

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Guy Johnson



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Posts: 4364
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301290 - 22/05/06 11:10 PM
Phew! Short posts again. my computer's scroll batteries have discharged!

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: LittleM]
      #301333 - 23/05/06 04:19 AM
Quote LittleM:

Quote Tim Rainey:

Quote LittleM:



3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.






The price of the Firium/Eqium bundle was a total of $169. I checked that figure with EA before updating my Firium Eqium review and posting it on this forum in the user reports section on 1/03/06.

Yesterday, the price on the RND site was $349 FOR EACH Plug-in. There was no mention of a reduction for bundles.

Therefore it follows that 349 x 2 = $698 That is OVER 400%.






Let's compare apples with apples. And I'm talking about the price listed today ($249), which you stated earlier is 3 times as much...

Firium and Eqium were $129 individually from Elemental Audio. They are $249 individually from Roger Nichols Digital. $129 is more than half of $249, so the plug-ins do not cost twice as much based on individual prices.

If you bought the Firium and Eqium bundle from Elemental Audio for $169: The same two products will cost three times as much from Roger Nichols, yes. Then again, that is buying them individually from Roger Nichols and not as part of a bundle, so is not really comparing apples with apples. Comparing the cost of the bundle to the individual plug-ins is not a valid comparison to me when a more direct comparison (individual plug-ins to individual plug-ins) is available. It remains to be seen whether Roger Nichols Digital will offer any bundles that will equate to a lesser price.




I see Under Tow has responded but, since you addressed your post to me, I will also respond:

It is quite obvious that for years EA had always priced Firium/Eqium to sell as a pair. No one in their right mind would pay $129 individually when the pair was $169.

From the start, RND has chosen to vastly inflate the prices and market the plug-ins individually.

The only way people can compare real world prices is to take what was previously available BEFORE the EA/RND union and what is available NOW.

Therefore I stand by my original assertion that the price increase was OVER 400%

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301334 - 23/05/06 04:20 AM
Max, James makes the very valid point that people who’d bought ALL EA plug-ins were not rewarded at all.

I tend to agree with James too, EA were obviously trying to make as much money as possible before the union… I’m not saying that is a good or bad thing, but it certainly is a strong possibility and nothing to do with cynicism.

Lots of people in the same position would make every effort to maximise their return; to claim otherwise is to deny the reality of the nature of business.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301346 - 23/05/06 05:45 AM
One more thing...

Quote:

but I'm certainly not about to bang on bitterly and repeatedly about the things about this situation which have no power to change , that i happen not to like much....




Max, it would appear that to ‘bang on bitterly’ as you put it, has actually bought about a rethink by RND and a substantial price reduction so your statement that that there is ‘no power to change’ is at odds with reality.

Apathy never got anyone anywhere.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: tomafd]
      #301348 - 23/05/06 05:56 AM
Quote tomafd:

...it does confirm my 'attitude' towards software (as against hardware). I only really expect to get about 3 years worth of work out of any of these packages, assuming they all work well enough not to need updating every month for reliability issues , etc....Software is generally relatively cheap and works pretty well- but if you want the kind of 'absolute' ownership of tools that are going to be yours forever, the choice really has to be hardware.



You know what - this latest episode has convinced me you are absolutely right.

Let's just make a quick round up of how much I've spent on broken music software over the last few years:

Hyperprism $400 - great plug-ins but flaky and never upgraded to work on OS-X, broken
Waves $800 - enough has been said on this, I'm bailing on their draconian and expensive updates, not broken yet but will be one day as I won't buy WUP and an iLok
Elemental Audio $500 - see above, not broken yet but will be one day as I won't buy an iLok
Logic 4.7 $600 - broke (for those with ADB computers) with the upgrade to USB dongles, was cheaper for me to buy a new license!
SoundDiver $200 - broken since the Apple take-over of Emagic
I'm sure there's more...
(Credit where it is due - still working fine so far: NI Pro-53, Metric Halo ChannelStrip, U-He Zebra)

Total = $2500

That's at least $2500 down the drain spent on perfectly good tools that go out of date after a few years! All I ever expect is that these tools are updated to work on current operating systems, and I don't mind paying reasonable upgrade costs for that either.

Compare that with the same amount I spent on, say, my Ensoniq ESQ-1 in 1988 which still works perfectly and has given me 18 years of outstanding musical service (without the need for upgrades although there were some optional ones) both onstage and in the studio (even thought the company went under years ago).

$2500 invested in decent hardware back in 1990 looks like a much better bet in the light of all this nonsense; it's now apparent that the whole plug-in circus is rotten to the core and a waste of my time and money.

I'm entirely rethinking the way I work in my studio as from today...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301370 - 23/05/06 08:25 AM
Agreed. I'm a Waves refusenik (for the same reasons, plus some personal political issues), but have many similar stories including a whole load of money spent over the years on PC stuff, and then the agonising decision to dump the lot (in order to remain with Logic) when Apple bought Emagic.

I too just bought a whole new Logic licence to move from PC to Mac because it was just too much trouble trying to do it any other way and I put a reasonable value on my own time as well. (If I'd had the grief one of our number had recently with 6 hours of call centre grief to get Waves authorised I think I'd have billed them at my normal studio rates!)

I have several bits of hardware dating back to the 60s and 70s which work well, get serviced if required, and will probably be good for a few more decades yet.

And yet, and yet... I've just bought the full version of Melodyne because there's no hardware equivalent out there! But I'm realistic, I know it may not work in a few years. I'm just "renting" it.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10762
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301408 - 23/05/06 09:48 AM
If people treated computers as appliances rather than expecting them to keep up with every new advance then they would last much longer. I fired up Voyetra's Sequencer Plus the other day and I was surprised to find out how easy it was to navigate and how fast it was to use. They really made the most of a plain old alpha-numeric display so you don't notice the lack of graphics at all. The timing was also solid. I don't use Midi much nowadays but I'm thinking of going back to SP if I ever need to use Midi again. The full version is available free from the Voyetra website and it will run on anything from an original IBM PC onwards.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Perrett]
      #301418 - 23/05/06 09:56 AM
I still love the Fairlight's RS sequencer... I've just downloaded the Voyetra SP program. Will love to give this a go later

Thanks!

P


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #301486 - 23/05/06 11:40 AM
Quote Tim Rainey:

Max, James makes the very valid point that people who’d bought ALL EA plug-ins were not rewarded at all.




where exactly in all the tenets of profitable business practice does it state "thou shalt reward those who aren't going to spend any more money with you"

?????

what the hell gives a customer the RIGHT to EXPECT a reward??



note, i HAVE ALL their plug ins... have doe for ages.....

that lack of extra value reward doesn't bother me in the slightest..


a piss poor analogy might go like this....

if you buy 2 cars from Ford, do you expect that they'll give you free servicing and a heavy discount on your next vehicle.... just because your last two were Fords??

and ....

the iLok thing.

stating you'll no longer buy Fords because they use a key to lock it and start it.....

.

The whole Waves bashing I'll go along with , I despise their practices and pricing etc.... and i don't actually rate their plug ins that highly anyway....

I'm just trying to get across how slightly silly/rabid some of this is coming out.....

and I entirely disagree about the earlier discount offer.
Yes it's likely that they were indeed trying to raise as much cash as possible...

but absolutely nothing in their entire previous history indicates anything like the underhanded agenda you and James propose.... so I submit that my interpretation, of it being a desperate bid to raise income , and maybe to avoid the necessity of accepting the RND offer , is equally, if not more, likely....

think about it....

it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it..

and I'd add that the pricing is NOT what i was referring to , that we had no power to change... it's the iLok and hardcopy manuals etc that I was on about....

the price was fair game, and i never intentionally implied otherwise.

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301497 - 23/05/06 11:52 AM
Quote Max The Mac:

it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it..




Because it gets a response. Like a quick u-turn on the new prices?

Because it marks people's cards. So when Rupert Murdoch (say) takes over Voxengo (say) he is forewarned that the hearts, minds and wallets of the customer base may not follow.

The internet is a wonderful thing. The customers (not only in this forum but also all the others - the KVR one is a hoot) have all trashed this deal in 48 hours whatever the good (?) intentions of the principal players.

It's real people power. Enjoy it and use it!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301524 - 23/05/06 12:20 PM
if Nichols is not fired immediately from SOS i will be cancelling my subscription. this is the most shameful and despicable move ever seen in the history of software development.


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301532 - 23/05/06 12:27 PM
that's over-reacting a tad isn;t it??

I mean, come on, it's nothing like as despicable as Apple's Abandonment of the Logic-PC users a couple of years ago.

although one does wonder if SOS may be paying too much for his "articles" if he can afford to do this..... ???

--------------------
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Dunewar



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301555 - 23/05/06 01:06 PM
Well, you can't deny that every article he writes creates quite a stirr on these forums. He's most certainly not afraid of controversy...
And it makes for an interesting read, and isn't that what sound-on-sound tries to do? Give you interesting articles?

--------------------
"Do not fear mistakes. There are none."
Miles Davis


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Dunewar]
      #301556 - 23/05/06 01:09 PM
Quote Dunewar:

Well, you can't deny that every article he writes creates quite a stirr on these forums. He's most certainly not afraid of controversy...
And it makes for an interesting read, and isn't that what sound-on-sound tries to do? Give you interesting articles?




The articles should be interesting because they are informative and well written not because they are flawed or completely miss the point.

UnderTow


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301563 - 23/05/06 01:23 PM
Quote:

what the hell gives a customer the RIGHT to EXPECT a reward??




Max, you appear to have misinterpreted (not for the first time either) the meaning of what I wrote. FWIW I didn’t EXPECT a reward, EA SAID they were rewarding their customers. In reality, their best customers (ie those of us who own all the plug-ins) were not rewarded at all.

IF the episode was actually a REAL attempt at rewarding ALL their customers then they would have made provision for their best customers too. Off the top of my head I can think of at least two ways they could have done that.

The fact that they didn’t do anything at all shows (me) the true motivation behind the event. You can choose to see that as accusations of ‘underhand agendas’ if you wish; I call it realism.

Quote:

the iLok thing.

stating you'll no longer buy Fords because they use a key to lock it and start it.....




I don’t know what point you are trying to make Max but I have already stated (on page two of this thread) some of the reasons why I will not buy iLock/dongle ‘protected’ software.

Quote:

I'm just trying to get across how slightly silly/rabid some of this is coming out.....




That is your interpretation… in my opinion, by far the majority of posts in this thread have been anything but silly or rabid. I could say that your splatter gun/tar-everyone-with-the-same-brush comments come across as silly and slightly condescending.

Quote:

it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it..




Shirley you can’t be serious

--------------------
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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301645 - 23/05/06 03:22 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

1) what the hell gives a customer the RIGHT to EXPECT a reward?
2) I'm just trying to get across how slightly silly/rabid some of this is coming out...
3) it's all water under the bridge now though... so why argue about it...
etc etc




1) I was going to write a response here but Tim said it all so neatly above that I'll just say that I concur 100% on all the points he addresses, particularly the one about neither of us implying we 'expected' a reward from EA for owning the whole plug-in suite.

2) I conceded in my earlier reply to the Roger Nichols or EA ringer (aka "LittleM") that some of the reaction (including probably my own) might have been a little 'over-emotional' but there's no smoke without fire and many good questions have been raised in this discussion, some of which have subsequently been answered and some not. Besides Max, one doesn't have to look far to find you indulging in a good old rant on this Forum, bringing to mind glasshouses & stones, pots & kettles, etc etc...

3) To say "It's all water under the bridge" seems to negate the value of even engaging in an exchange of views! We're all interested parties here - I find it valuable to hear a range of opinion on the subject, whether or not I agree with them; does this constitute "arguing about it"? Taking it a step further, one could speculate that 'rapid-reaction' discussion on Forums like this may have contributed to the lowering of the price of the RND plug-ins by $100 within 48hrs of the original announcement - isn't that a good thing?


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Reds
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301658 - 23/05/06 03:52 PM
I'm ok with i-Loks (much preferable to the old Pace HD auth system). Preferable IMO to challenge-reponse serial nos. as well - you are totally dependent on the manufacturer still being around for your new response codes then. (I had an experience with IKM once, where it took weeks of chasing to get a new code for Amplitube).

Things are a bit better now. You can protect your dongle by paying for zero downtime cover $30 p/annum. If you were to lose your serial nos. or your i-Lok got stolen - same deal I guess - you still have to approach the manufacturer and ask nicely with proof of purchase for a free replacement.


THIS from the i-Lok site>>>>>>>>>>>>
If your iLok is lost or stolen
If your iLok is lost or stolen, please understand the following:

We cannot provide you with a replacement iLok. You must purchase a new iLok if you need one.
If the iLok is covered under Zero Downtime, we can provide temporary licenses.
We cannot provide you with permanent replacement authorizations. You must contact the software vendors and work with them to receive replacement licenses. Depending on the vendors' policies, they may require documentation from you, possibly including a police report or insurance claim.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sorry - a bit OTT it may seem, but who knows where software and copy protection is going in the next ten years? I'm pretty sure my list of plugs wont look remotely like it does today, so how long is a piece of software !!! ;-)


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301661 - 23/05/06 04:01 PM
has Nichols been fired yet yes or no? i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this, either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Reds]
      #301665 - 23/05/06 04:08 PM
Quote Reds:

I'm ok with i-Loks (much preferable to the old Pace HD auth system). Preferable IMO to challenge-reponse serial nos. as well - you are totally dependent on the manufacturer still being around for your new response codes then. (I had an experience with IKM once, where it took weeks of chasing to get a new code for Amplitube).

Things are a bit better now. You can protect your dongle by paying for zero downtime cover $30 p/annum. If you were to lose your serial nos. or your i-Lok got stolen - same deal I guess - you still have to approach the manufacturer and ask nicely with proof of purchase for a free replacement.


THIS from the i-Lok site>>>>>>>>>>>>
If your iLok is lost or stolen
If your iLok is lost or stolen, please understand the following:

We cannot provide you with a replacement iLok. You must purchase a new iLok if you need one.
If the iLok is covered under Zero Downtime, we can provide temporary licenses.
We cannot provide you with permanent replacement authorizations. You must contact the software vendors and work with them to receive replacement licenses. Depending on the vendors' policies, they may require documentation from you, possibly including a police report or insurance claim.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sorry - a bit OTT it may seem, but who knows where software and copy protection is going in the next ten years? I'm pretty sure my list of plugs wont look remotely like it does today, so how long is a piece of software !!! ;-)




This again ignores the most important issue with iLok: It does not protect the software from crackers. It also ignores all the problems that people have with iLok drivers.

Instead of getting an iLok, one could get a USB storage device that has all one's keys and serial numbers + anything else one needs to carry arround. The advantages of this is that it is only a backup or a copy and if lost, isn't a big issue.

UnderTow


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301671 - 23/05/06 04:21 PM
Bye bye Gelled Fringe.

it was moderately nice knowing you.


SOS has never, bowed to any sort of blackmail whatsoever.

I doubt they'll start now either.

see ya.

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Andi



Joined: 02/09/04
Posts: 1203
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301672 - 23/05/06 04:27 PM
Surely if the owners of EA decide to sell their rights to their products then so long as they meet their contracted responsibilities to their existing customers (moral rights would be good too) that is entirely up-to them - whomever they decide to sell to.

If Roger Nichols decides to buy the rights to some of those products then that is entirely up-to him.

One has to presume that EA sold for a reason, and may reasonably assume that it is a commercial reason. Perhaps the owners wished to retire or perhaps the business was not commercially viable. It is also reasonable to presume that the new owner wishes to develop a successful ongoing business based on the products. If he decides to give those products away, or to charge a thousand dollars each, except on a Tuesday if your name is Ian then that is up-to him, but logically he will try to fix whatever he perceives to have been wrong or improvable in the EA busienss model - so, the quick hits will be?.....how about 1) protect your product 2) rebadge/brand and 2) see what price the market will stand .

Debate as you will the usefulness of iLok, and when you launch your own software products you will be entitled to make your own choice. Ditto branding and price. For the moment, on the subject of these plugins, for whatever reason, you do still have your own choice - buy 'em or don't.

Also bear in mind that in retail, the sticker price is ALWAYS the highest possible price that the seller believes they can sell that item for conducive to maintaining their desired market. No one offers more than the sticker price - as discussed to death in the previous pages. Everyone is entitled to haggle, which in a way is what this thread and others like it have done, as a result of which the seller may decide to change pricing. It's a MARKET and the owner has every entitlement to market their goods as they see fit, however well or poorly that may be, so long as they do not break the prevalent rules of honesty and decency for their marketplace.


Roger Nichols may be a pratt, I don't know him so I don't know; but he appears to be successful enough in his chosen field to be able to "buy the company" and in a way I do envy him that, as well as respect his having the courage to do it. So far as SOS' impartiallity goes, this issue raises it's head every time a staff member or contributor is outed as a professional in the world of sound engineering, and I for one am content that the magazine appears to behave with honourable transparency (and if you want a mag written by a bunch of know-nothing amateurs there are a few alternatives to choose from).

A.

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301677 - 23/05/06 04:41 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

has Nichols been fired yet yes or no? i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this, either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER




Just because you (and about 5 million others, myself included) don't like the fact that RND has purchased the rights to distribute EA software, this does not mean that he has done anything illegal or immoral. He/they can charge anything they want for their own products. It is up to us to decide if we want to open our wallets or not. This is capitalism at its finest.

What does this have to do with Mr. Nichols' SOS articles? Like I said, he has done nothing legally wrong, he just may have made a bad business decision or two (ot three, or four...).

Agree or disagree with his SOS articles, once again, that is our choice as consumers to vote with our voices and wallets... but to come on here and make comments like:

"i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this"

and

"either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER"

Does nothing for your credibility or your cause, and only causes pushback.

And I guess I am waiting to hear the "utter injustice of it all". It is a bad business decision. This is a guy running a company who acquired another company. Nothing more, nothing less. It is up to him to choose what he charges for HIS PRODUCTS. Buy them or not, but there is no "utter injustice" going on here.

Maybe he felt that the products were underpriced compared to the competition, and that his reputation provided "value added" and he could justify the price hike... Who knows??? But the bottom line is that it doesn't really matter why. It is his decision.

Let him know how you feel in a rational manner. It looks like they have already bowed to pressure and lowered the price. This is a good thing.

Otherwise, grow up and stop being the martyr and the drama queen... "Oh the injustice of it all..."

Please don't leave us.... please???

Whatever. Give me a break!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Andi



Joined: 02/09/04
Posts: 1203
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301699 - 23/05/06 05:08 PM
Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301715 - 23/05/06 06:09 PM
max what other attempted blackmail has SOS been subjected to?


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Andi]
      #301724 - 23/05/06 06:31 PM
Quote Andi:

Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from




It's a secret!!! Shhhhh...!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #301733 - 23/05/06 07:07 PM
Gell

let's see, there's the occasional forum outbursts like yours, then there's the Subscriber who threatens to unsubscribe over some ludicrous thing, then there's the odd user who tries corporate blackmail to get a ban lifted, then there's the advertisers and manufacturers.. and so on....

Good job Ian's got an armoured car , and nerves of steel i reckon


Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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ZombieSlugs
member


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Posts: 136
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301764 - 23/05/06 08:49 PM
This went round and round on KvRAudio as well.

If you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em. Me, I'll save my cash for a UAD-1, which is cheaper than 2 of his plugins *and* has a nice useful dongle called a DSP card!

That said I'm sure someone will pay the price happily.. there's one born every minute, I hear!

--------------------
http://www.zombieslugs.com


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #301804 - 23/05/06 09:41 PM
Quote Doublehelix:

Quote Andi:

Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from




It's a secret!!! Shhhhh...!!!




No its not - he got them here. Look in the source code.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301811 - 23/05/06 09:52 PM
Max much as I love you and look forward to your BBQ next month, I don't think you can speak for Ian on this.

If I ran SOS, which of course I do not, I would be somewhat acutely aware of the groundswell of opinion on this topic which indicates - in the most general of terms - that we would all be a lot happier if RN never contributed to SOS again.

And if that reasonable expectation is not met, it will have some impact on subscriptions.

That's not blackmail. That's business.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301865 - 23/05/06 11:22 PM
What I find slightly amusing (pathetic, actully) is when all these so-called experts claim that RN doesn't know what he's talking about, is a fraud, etc, etc. Seven-time Grammy winner? And just where are YOUR Grammies? How many phone calls do you get from Steely Dan, asking for YOU to record their sessions? Uh-huh....


News-flash: success as a recording engineeer depends on helluva lot more than just one's technical merits (and I'd dare say RN has forgotten MORE about digital audio than most of you have even begun to know), but about interacting with artists, musicians, producers, techies, etc. You can be an electronic engineer who knows the board's design inside and out, but that means little to getting a good sound... In the end, it's all about delivering results "in the can".

So lambast RN'S knowledge and experience all you want, but the guy has enjoyed a career the likes of which the majority of you can only DREAM about, EVEN those of you working as recording engineers. And if any of you think you CAN'T learn from him, even his mistakes, then I'm afraid there's little hope for your further professional development. Honestly, I'm excited at the prospect of even being able to listen in on conversations amongst guys who are recognized as experts in their field. Why? You learn from those before you, EVEN if their approach is not your cup of tea. You glean what's worthwhile, and ignore the rest (at your own risk, I might add...) Any other attitude aside from respect for one's predecessors is pathetic, at best....

But as an aside, though, I'd LOVE to hear suggestions for whom people think would be more-qualified, with real-world engineering experience, to provide insight into what's on the mind of someone successfully working in the recording biz. Please, throw out some names: we're all ears....

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Steve Hill
member


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #301875 - 23/05/06 11:36 PM
Oh dear Chris, you do walk into it don't you?

Just how many decades ago was RN's last grammy (or Steely Dan album)? Go check his own website.

What has he done since?

Well nothing. Except develop some dubious plug-ins with strange names which are hardly mainstream in the industry (AFAIK).

And blagged himself a couple of gigs writing, including EQ magazine and SOS, trading on (long) past glories.

He's a pensioner FFS!!!

He would have (and deserves) my undying respect for his Steely Dan work - although I draw the line at John Denver - if only he would have the good grace to recognise that his moment of glory has passed.

It's up to him to validate what he says or does now.

I'm not saying I'm better than him - of course I'm not. But I make a living out of this business, which is kind of noteworthy these days!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4364
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301881 - 23/05/06 11:46 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

If I ran SOS, which of course I do not, I would be somewhat acutely aware of the groundswell of opinion on this topic which indicates - in the most general of terms - that we would all be a lot happier if RN never contributed to SOS again.




Rubbish. What groundswell? Just a few disgruntled people on this forum. I'm a bit disappointed that the prices have gone up. We shall see what happens.

And who is the "We" in the Grand Scheme of Things? Not me. I enjoy Roger Nichol's articles. I have a brain, and I can sort Stuff Out Myself, thanks, without any heckling form Forum Bystanders.

and as to: "has Nichols been fired yet yes or no? i'm typing in a blind rage as i simply cannot believe the utter injustice of all this, either he goes or i do, i mean it i will leave this site FOREVER "

BOLLOX.

Injustice, MY ARSE!!!. Jeez.

Annoyed Of Pembrokeshire. After a long day's work.

Where's the beer?

Ahhh.


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #301883 - 23/05/06 11:55 PM
Quote Feefer:

What I find slightly amusing (pathetic, actully) is when all these so-called experts claim that RN doesn't know what he's talking about, is a fraud, etc, etc. Seven-time Grammy winner?





It doesn't matter how well he records and mixes, that doesn't mean he understands digital audio.

Quote:


News-flash: success as a recording engineeer depends on helluva lot more than just one's technical merits





News-flash: When you write an article trying to give a technical explanation for something alledgedly happening in digital audio, technical understanding is paramount.

Quote:


(and I'd dare say RN has forgotten MORE about digital audio than most of you have even begun to know),





Obviously not ... His explanation was flawed. Period.

Quote:


but about interacting with artists, musicians, producers, techies, etc. ... getting a good sound... In the end, it's all about delivering results "in the can".





He can write about that. Thats fine. But he should stay away from technical stuff he doesn't fully understand.


Quote:


... I'm afraid there's little hope for your further professional development.





I would say that applies to you if you get so easily star struck.

Quote:


Honestly, I'm excited at the prospect of even being able to listen in on conversations amongst guys who are recognized as experts in their field.





Roger Nichols is not recognised as an expert on digital audio. (Or modern DAWs).

Quote:


Any other attitude aside from respect for one's predecessors is pathetic, at best....





I have loads of respect for my grandfather that doesn't mean I will ask him advice about technical details of digital audio and that is the crux of my argument: Mr Nichols should be writing about what he knows. Not stuff that has evolved so much since he was up to date. (Although dither has always been part of digital audio so maybe he never really was aware of the technical details).

Quote:


But as an aside, though, I'd LOVE to hear suggestions for whom people think would be more-qualified, with real-world engineering experience, to provide insight into what's on the mind of someone successfully working in the recording biz. Please, throw out some names: we're all ears....

Chris




Hard to tell. Being a great engineer, even one with full knowledge about technical details, doesn't mean you are a great writer. Anyway, I repeat, Mr Nichols should write about what he knows. Not write technical articles about things he is not knowledgable enough about.

Actually, when I see the "7 times grammy award winner" on Mr Nichols site or on the EAS site or in the SOS articles I always wonder why his articles can't just stand on the merit of their content. If he really was so good, it wouldn't have to be mentioned again and again ...

UnderTow

Edited by UnderTow (24/05/06 12:17 AM)


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301884 - 24/05/06 12:01 AM

EA have posted a FAQ on their site: http://www.elementalaudio.com/RND_FAQ.html

UnderTow


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301885 - 24/05/06 12:07 AM
Steve, I have much respect for you. Your confident challenge against this (RN) figure for what you believe in is something that educates me on levels much deeper than just the Music Technology it stands to cover. But let it be said, as i'm sure you'd probably agree. Right or wrong, his arctles have perked my interest much more than the average of the recent SOS articles, and this, for itself, should be merited upon. I disagree in the way it is presented. It does very much come across as if RN is right and everybody else is wrong when it comes to technical knowledge. Yet in fact, I too have noticed some (what I believe) errors in the ideal thinking. But damn I'm looking forward to his next article, and surely that's what SOS is about!?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #301887 - 24/05/06 12:12 AM
Guy - enjoy the beer! Let's talk some more tomorrow. I've said in posts above that I think it's a good thing to have a colourful guest columnist but also that I think -

(a) an "in-house contrarian" should nail his colours to the mast before possibly confusing e.g. college kids doing exams with his not-necessarily-mainstream theories;

(b) his handling of the EA takeover sucks to the point where at the very least his PR skills (and thus the public's confidence in him in future) are highly questionable. This viewpoint seems to be shared by an overwhelming number of people who have an opinion on the matter; and

(c) his independence as a columnist is questionable given his new vested interests.

Yes, we are entitled to get arsy about all this. I've done MBA courses and stuff and I know exactly how these things should be handled. This is a textbook example of getting it wrong, and the market is rightly making its own judgement.

After the events of the last few days the world is going to divide into Nichols apologists and the rest (it has already). If, say, SOS by its actions decides it is in the former camp, some people will vote with their feet.

That is not to say they are right or wrong, it's just the way of the world.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301888 - 24/05/06 12:19 AM
Don't get me wrong. I'll happily leech his knowledge. I'll never buy his products


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: E D]
      #301889 - 24/05/06 12:19 AM
I have to say ,that having read the FAQ, I'm distinctly underwhelmed....

the first few, dealing with the sale, or lack thereof, of assets or rights or whatever... is kind of karate answering... the art of answering without answering.

if no assets or rights of any kind were sold, leased or assigned, and they retain such complete control, then exactly how does RND fit into the picture at all???

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: E D]
      #301890 - 24/05/06 12:20 AM
Quote E D:

Steve, I have much respect for you. Your confident challenge against this (RN) figure for what you believe in is something that educates me on levels much deeper than just the Music Technology it stands to cover. But let it be said, as i'm sure you'd probably agree. Right or wrong, his arctles have perked my interest much more than the average of the recent SOS articles, and this, for itself, should be merited upon. I disagree in the way it is presented. It does very much come across as if RN is right and everybody else is wrong when it comes to technical knowledge. Yet in fact, I too have noticed some (what I believe) errors in the ideal thinking. But damn I'm looking forward to his next article, and surely that's what SOS is about!?




OK, let me put it another way. Did RN say to SOS a couple of months back, when discussing becoming a guest writer:

"Look I may be about to make a move in the marketplace which is really quite likely to p!ss off a lot of your readers. Are you OK with that?"

If not, why not?

If the SOS response is "fine, we are a broad church and welcome contrarian opinions" I think that is probably a good thing. But we should maybe put a health warning on the column before too many kids fail their exams for quoting views which are not necessarily universally accepted!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301892 - 24/05/06 12:27 AM
Quote Max The Mac:

then exactly how does RND fit into the picture at all???




He just seems to be a middleman adding to the cost without adding any value.

UnderTow


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: UnderTow]
      #301906 - 24/05/06 02:26 AM
Quote UnderTow:

It doesn't matter how well he records and mixes, that doesn't mean he understands digital audio.




Hey, weren't you the guy who COMPLETELY missed the point of RN's article on the benefit on transferring files via audio vs. digital? I know he confused you, daring to include two different discussions in the same article, but I recall that you so completely missed the ENTIRE point of his article when you got so hung up on the technical minutiae (lost "the forest for the trees").

Seriously, I'm all for technical accuracy, but if you think articles in SOS are some substitute for college level coursework in the principles of digital audio theory, you're expecting a bit too much for a music mag. SOS isn't even especially aimed at pro audio types (like Tape Op, Mix, etc), but home recorders. I mean, I've read reviews in SOS that contained technical errors, but didn't go ballistic, demanding the review be hung from the tallest lanyard.

While technical accuracy is admirable, the real world doesn't work like that, and the gig goes to the guy who gets results, and isn't just always technically correct.

This reminds me of guys who have Masters Degrees in music theory, or who are classically trained, but can't sit down and and play a casual or *gasp* improvise a solo to save their life. The guy has a heart attack when asked to play a rhythm sheet with chord changes in a recording studio, blowing repeated takes and eating studio time, all the while arguing to anyone who'll listen how the PROPER notation for the note should be a B double-sharp, not a D flat... The guy is so rigorous and inflexible in what he "knows" that he's unable to even admit what he DOESN'T know.

The bottom line is that theory, whether electronics or music theory, serves as a model to help us conceptualize that which can't be seen, and to help us more forward. Creative thinkers are willing to expand and explore alternative ways of thinking, challenging the limits of "what we know" instead of dismissing anything that dares deviate from what they were taught. In fact, some of the great breakthroughs in human knowledge could ONLY occur after someone WAS willing to entertain the idea that current thinking was insufficient, understanding theories need to be pushed.

All of which will carry very little weight with some of you: you already know it all (and RN can't hold a candle to your vast knowledge and experience).

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Feefer
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #301910 - 24/05/06 02:42 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

(c) his independence as a columnist is questionable given his new vested interests.





Maybe you missed the recent review of Lounge Lizard 3, penned by a certain Martin Walker? Turns out he was also a contributor of "signature" patches that are included in the price of the software.. So obviously he must have SOME conflict of interest here? Was he paid for it? To his credit, he properly disclosed his relationship in his review (which is sufficient from an ethical standpoint, IMO).

I actually bought the software after reading the glowing review, but now am left wondering how he could've programmed so many signature patches and played the software for so long without having noticed a quite OBVIOUS software bug that creates an unnatural build-up in distortion while playing with the sustain pedal depressed? Hmm..

Users have complained of this problem on the AAS forum for months now, and supposedly AAS is working on a fix, but nothing to date. When finally rectified, the program WILL deserve all the praise it was given, but until then many find it far from ideal... Discussion of the problem is found on the AAS website.

SO what say you, unruly and incited mob? Are you willing to string up both MW AND RN for their supposed ethical crimes against humanity? If we're going to quibble about this, than string up MW first.

Bottom line is it ain't gonna happen. Some here are just fishing for angles to try and take RN down, like piranahas excited by what they perceive as the smell of fresh blood... Let it go, fellas.

If you don't like the EA/RN plug-ins or don't see value in them, or don't appreciate SOS, etc, then by all means feel free to complain, but don't refrain from voting with your money. It's as simple as that. I'm now less likely to buy those plug-ins (and really had no intent to, before this anyway) simply because I hate dongle protection. So I state my point, but vote with my wallet.

Just please refrain from the virtual diatribes, whining, and character assassination: it's rather pathetic. Show me your Grammys, hell, even your Grammy nominations, and then we'll talk.

PS I'm still waiting for even ONE suggestion of one name for someone who's column everyone would respect. Drop at least ONE name, ANY name, and then some will no doubt try to tear that guy a new one, too....

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301921 - 24/05/06 05:48 AM
Folks - this is a discussion about Roger Nichols Digital's take-over of Elemental Audio. For most of us, I would suggest, our primary interest in this is in establishing the exact future of the investment ($500+ in my case) many of us made in Elemental Audio products.

Simply bashing Roger Nichols personally is obscuring the central issue of this thread which is the actions of Roger Nichols Digital/Elemental Audio relating to their plug-ins. So far those hasty and oblique actions alone have provided ample fodder for lively discussion in this thread - whether or not Roger Nichols should be writing for SOS is a worthy discussion but surely belongs in another thread (in the new SOS Magazine Feedback Forum for example).

'Gelled Fringe's' feigned outrage was a wind-up (verging on trolling) that was deliberately designed to side-track the thread, and the subsequent "Show me your Grammys" nonsense is completely irrelevant - can we please get back to discussing the future of Elemental Audio plug-ins!


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301924 - 24/05/06 06:12 AM
Quote:

demanding the review be hung from the tallest lanyard.




That would be quite an achievement even for an Indian rope trick expert ROFLMAO

BTW before a pedant strikes me down for not mentioning the other error… ‘hanged’, not hung.

Sorry for the light hearted interlude James, carry on…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #301926 - 24/05/06 06:21 AM
Quote:

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....




So you appear to have changed your viewpoint somewhat Max.

From the Elemental FAQ
Question: Is this partnership because Elemental Audio was in financial trouble?
Answer: No. This partnership is not the result of any financial instability. Elemental Audio was and remains a profitable company and has experienced triple-digit growth each year since its inception.


That would dismiss the earlier talk of piracy being the cause then…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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James Lehmann



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301928 - 24/05/06 06:29 AM
Elemental Audio have finally published a FAQ about all this here.

It's a classic 'damage-limitation' exercise - they must be kicking themselves they didn't release this information simultaneously with the initial announcement last week.


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #301929 - 24/05/06 06:29 AM
Regarding iLock they say:
The primary motive for us was the mobility of authorizations for customers who need it. The copy protection was a distant consideration as we believe that virtually every copy protection mechanism can be circumvented, if desired.

Since copy protection isn’t the issue, usability is. What about two versions: iLock for the people who have requested it, serial number (as it was) for those that wouldn’t touch iLock with a bargepole?

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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__
Who's never been here


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Posts: 6263
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301932 - 24/05/06 06:45 AM
Ive sussed out a copy protection system that can be used with any piece of software. It won't stop someone changing the software and making accessible that way, who ever could? But this is absolutely bullet proof. I just need an engineer to design it. It will also require a hardware dongle type device. But you only have to buy this once and it will work for anything. Hehe, can you see what it is yet?

Theres no point interrogating me either.

Here's a clue, it only works for software you can download, and it requires that the vendor, or more likely a trusted third party maintain a database Oh and the Cops could use it too


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ChrisCarter
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301936 - 24/05/06 07:04 AM
Quote:

Elemental Audio have finally published a FAQ about all this here.
It's a classic 'damage-limitation' exercise - they must be kicking themselves they didn't release this information simultaneously with the initial announcement last week.




Not a single mention of WHY they re-badged all their plugins with those bloody awful 'pro sounding' names though.


--------------------
Web Site | Twitter | iTunes


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Andi



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301952 - 24/05/06 07:59 AM
Steve, if your MBA courses taught you that publishing your intent to acquire a company or its assets in advance of actually doing so is a good idea then I suggest that you should ask for your money back.

Max - that's a Jeet Kune Do answer, not a Karate answer.


A.

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Ian Stewart



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301963 - 24/05/06 08:16 AM
If RN's articles are deliberately provocative that is really teenage and it irritates me. The problem is I know a lot about some things so if someone is winding me up with false information, fine, I can tell. But I am far from an expert on digital recording so I am inclined to believe most of what I read about it as correct so that I can learn. I also sense that HRJ was far more lenient in his defence of RN than he is with others, such as forum members who suggest analogue is better than digital. Perhaps RNs future articles could start with :
"RN enjoys being provacative, some of the following may or may not be true".

I have changed how I record after reading posts by Neil Wight, Massive Mastering, Hugh Robjohns among others, I hope they weren't winding us up for fun.

Incidently, I think RNs wonderful recordings were made with analogue, not digital - but I may be wrong.


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301965 - 24/05/06 08:23 AM
I would have liked to have seen this question answered:

Question: what was the justification for the 400% price increase?

Answer: ……………………………………………………………

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #301971 - 24/05/06 08:32 AM
Quote Tim Rainey:

Quote:

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....




So you appear to have changed your viewpoint somewhat Max.






errr yes, to a degree, that's what's supposed to happen when one acquires new information... you re-assess your position in the light of new evidence..

it's called learning, or being flexible....

I'm STILL in favour of the iLok move... it makes sense to me... and indeed, i'm one of the people it benefits directly.

There's no mention of what they get out of the deal.... what incentive there was to go through with it.

As it stands, they've posted a load of denials, and some side issue explanations, but not one thing detailing who got what out of whom, for what, and why.

if you see what i mean??

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Sonicus



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #301974 - 24/05/06 08:34 AM
Quote Max The Mac:

I
if no assets or rights of any kind were sold, leased or assigned, and they retain such complete control, then exactly how does RND fit into the picture at all???

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....




Yeah sooo weird - and as someone mentioned...

Horse, Door, Stable, Bolted.

PR Disaster

even in my now relatively calm and sober assessment of this situation I am still perplexed at the astoundingly incompetent handling of this 'Transition' 'Partnership' 'Takeover' (whatever).

It seems to me like the boys over at EAU are either in Denial or that they have some latent Jeckle and Hyde complex that is revealing itself.

I have confidence in and am pleased about the 'free' Macintel crossgrade for the plugs which I own, it obviously and quite rightly imho concerns me that in order to 'stay' with my plugs I am going to have to buy into the Roger Nichols 'Experience' somewhere down the line.

I have no problem with iLok but I tell you one thing now - If I have to pull up several instances of 'Frequelizer' 'Pre-equalizerer' or 'FREAKER-IZER' and have to stare at his barmy interfaces with his name all over them then I will most definately look for something else. And that is besides what we will probably have to pay to get the 'post' macintel transition upgrade.


Smell a rat Max?..... I smell a Dead Buffalo.


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Sonicus



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #301980 - 24/05/06 08:43 AM
Question: So, what *is* the actual relationship between Elemental Audio and Roger Nichols Digital?

Answer: Roger Nichols Digital will act as the exclusive distributor and licensee of Elemental Audio products. This means that future products that Elemental Audio produces will likely be distributed by Roger Nichols Digital. This is not guaranteed, however. Elemental Audio could, at some point, develop and sell products independent of Roger Nichols Digital; that will depend on several variables.


So as exclusive distributor and licensee he gets to 're-brand' the already 'high-quality' clean, simple understated interface into a vulgar, garish, brash new one? and add - ADOLESCENT new names!!

See how I am getting Angry-izer again, I'd better have a cup of tea.

Please ' "at some point, develop and sell products independent of Roger Nichols Digital" - Please!


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James PerrettModerator



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: UnderTow]
      #302004 - 24/05/06 09:15 AM
Quote UnderTow:

Mr Nichols should be writing about what he knows. Not stuff that has evolved so much since he was up to date. (Although dither has always been part of digital audio so maybe he never really was aware of the technical details).






If you go back in time to the days when RN was using early digital recorders you will find that the use of dither wasn't well understood and many recorders had no dithering at all. So maybe he just prefers the sound of undithered digital audio.

RN is just one of many respected names who don't understand all the ins and outs of technolgy. That's probably the reason why he bought the rights to the EA plug-ins in the first place. He's just the marketing man who thinks that there's an opportunity to sell them in a different way.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Martin WalkerModerator
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #302007 - 24/05/06 09:23 AM
Quote Feefer:

Maybe you missed the recent review of Lounge Lizard 3, penned by a certain Martin Walker? Turns out he was also a contributor of "signature" patches that are included in the price of the software.. So obviously he must have SOME conflict of interest here? Was he paid for it? To his credit, he properly disclosed his relationship in his review (which is sufficient from an ethical standpoint, IMO).

I actually bought the software after reading the glowing review, but now am left wondering how he could've programmed so many signature patches and played the software for so long without having noticed a quite OBVIOUS software bug that creates an unnatural build-up in distortion while playing with the sustain pedal depressed? Hmm..




Sorry guys and gals - I know this is off-topic, but for obvious reasons I have to answer this slur

Feefer - someone else asked this, so I took the opportunity to explain my innocence in some detail in last month's (May 2006) issue in Crosstalk. Here's what I said there:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/may06/articles/crosstalk_0506.htm

"Over the years I've contributed patch banks for a number of different pieces of software, including Wave Arts' MasterVerb and DelayDots' Spectral Suite and Spectrum Worx, plus Applied Acoustics' String Studio and Lounge Lizard EP3, all of which have subsequently been bundled with the products.

Now, I could understand your concern if I were being paid for this work, but in none of these cases did any money change hands. I created all of these presets during the course of reviewing of each product, simply because I was so impressed with it that I typically spent extra time beyond the review period working on more 'individual' sounds for my own music. Having done this, it only seemed fair to forward such endeavours to the developer, so that they could make them freely available to others who might find them useful.

The only difference with String Studio and Lounge Lizard EP3 is that I was initially offered beta versions of the software so I could begin my reviews a couple of weeks before the final release date. Unlike some other magazines, here at SOS we don't review beta versions as if they were the final product in order to get our reviews published first. Nevertheless, initially working with a beta version prior to getting the finished product does give us the chance to spend even more time getting to know a piece of software, and I was so impressed with both of these that I'd already finished a preset bank before the final release version was signed off. This is the only reason why a bank of my sounds could be included with these products when first shipped.

So, far from indicating a lack of editorial impartiality, you can be confident that if product ships with a bank of presets that I have designed, it means that I was so impressed with it that I went beyond the call of duty in the course of my review!"

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.

I hope this puts everyone's minds at rest

Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic


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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #302008 - 24/05/06 09:26 AM
Quote:

errr yes, to a degree, that's what's supposed to happen when one acquires new information... you re-assess your position in the light of new evidence..

it's called learning, or being flexible....




Max, I’m not a child, please don’t patronize me.

Quote:

I'm STILL in favour of the iLok move... it makes sense to me... and indeed, i'm one of the people it benefits directly.




I can understand how an iLock benefits YOU, and people like you, but I think it safe to say that the iLock doesn’t benefit the majority.

Also, having to pay a huge premium for the iLock version? Even if I did accept the iLock philosophy, I wouldn’t pay the sort of price RND is charging.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #302014 - 24/05/06 09:30 AM
Quote Martin Walker:

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.





I tried this.,,

if you play "properly" a la Pianist... and actually lift your foot completely off the sustain pedal for much of the time , it's not an issue.

if you leave it on the pedal all, or indeed, most, of the time, it is an issue.,

I bet sufferers don't take kindly to being told it's their piss poor technique

i am guilty of occasionally using the sustain pedal as a kind of reverb thing.... and it's this type of use that i think causes the problems .


but I'm a guitarist, so i have an excuse

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Andi



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302016 - 24/05/06 09:33 AM
Tim

you infer that the price hike is BECAUSE OF iLok which is almost certainly not the case, you are actually getting a price hike AND iLok. Starts to look like better value by the minute! You can even get a BOX now!!!

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302022 - 24/05/06 09:40 AM
Having slept on this issue overnight, I think I have got to the heart of it.

It's all about spelling.

Americans say "-izer"

Brits (and Aussies etc) say "-iser"

So none of these new-fangled plug-ins are intelligible to a non-US audience, and therefore the potential market has been reduced from 6 billion buyers to about 295 million.

That's a very big drop in sales.

Chris/Feefer: I have no issue at all with Martin Walker declaring an interest so we all know where we stand. I have a very big issue with RN not doing the same.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #302030 - 24/05/06 09:46 AM
Quote James Lehmann:

Elemental Audio have finally published a FAQ about all this here.




"Question: Why did Elemental Audio decide to partner with Roger Nichols Digital?
Answer: Roger Nichols is an accomplished audio engineer and producer. We believe that our audio software development expertise coupled with Roger Nichols' engineering and production experience make for a great relationship."

Question: Yes, but what about his global distribution network? His business experience? His marketing and PR skills? How does all that improve your offering?

Question: Your FAQ makes no mention of the overnight severe price hike? Is that not actually a fairly frequently asked question too?

Question: Why are you treating us all like imbeciles? I don't buy goods from people who do that to me.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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thejazzassassin



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302032 - 24/05/06 09:49 AM
'Elemental Audio was and remains a profitable company and has experienced triple digit growth each year since its inception'.(from the EA FAQ)

Triple digits? Like two hundred quid or something?

--------------------
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Tim.



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Andi]
      #302033 - 24/05/06 09:49 AM
Quote Andi:

Tim

you infer that the price hike is BECAUSE OF iLok which is almost certainly not the case, you are actually getting a price hike AND iLok. Starts to look like better value by the minute! You can even get a BOX now!!!




“Also, having to pay a huge premium for the iLock version?”

That is the only version currently available Andi, it doesn’t follow that I implied or even believe that iLock is the only reason for the price hike.

--------------------
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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #302039 - 24/05/06 09:56 AM
Quote Feefer:


Hey, weren't you the guy who COMPLETELY missed the point of RN's article on the benefit on transferring files via audio vs. digital?





It seems you completely misunderstood the article. That was just background to introduce his theories. I won't go into the details of all that again.

Quote Feefer:


I know he confused you, daring to include two different discussions in the same article, but I recall that you so completely missed the ENTIRE point of his article when you got so hung up on the technical minutiae (lost "the forest for the trees").





Was it two dicsussions or not? You are contradicting yourself.

Quote Feefer:


Seriously, I'm all for technical accuracy, but if you think articles in SOS are some substitute for college level coursework in the principles of digital audio theory, you're expecting a bit too much for a music mag.





Of course I do not but that doesn't mean that SOS should contain bollocks masquerading as technical epxlanation.

Quote Feefer:


While technical accuracy is admirable, the real world doesn't work like that, and the gig goes to the guy who gets results, and isn't just always technically correct.





But this isn't a recording or mixing gig. This is a load of nonsense pretending to be a technical epxlanation for some alledged phenomenon.

Quote Feefer:


The bottom line is that theory, whether electronics or music theory, serves as a model to help us conceptualize that which can't be seen, and to help us more forward. Creative thinkers are willing to expand and explore alternative ways of thinking, challenging the limits of "what we know" instead of dismissing anything that dares deviate from what they were taught.





Rubbish. You have to understand the current theories to be able to challenge them. Mr Nichols doesn't.

You obviously won't take my word for it so let me quote Hugh Robjohns for you:

Quote Hugh Robjohns 17/05/06:


However, as has been established in the other thread that Steve mentioned, the explanation Roger Nichol's offers for his subjective impressions of an improved bass resolution is... erm... seriously flawed!





UnderTow


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: thejazzassassin]
      #302045 - 24/05/06 10:05 AM
Quote thejazzassassin:

'Elemental Audio was and remains a profitable company and has experienced triple digit growth each year since its inception'.(from the EA FAQ)

Triple digits? Like two hundred quid or something?




Lol. They most probably mean triple digit percentages growth.

UnderTow


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Andi



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302062 - 24/05/06 10:36 AM
Tim

my point is simply that the products have increased in price AND they have iLok, I took your inference to be that they have increased in price BECAUSE they have iLok.

If not then apologies, in fact apologies anyway if it reads like I'm critisising in any way - not intended; it's just that this thread has become so emotional over a bit of software that I suspect that if RN annouounced tomorrow that he had discovered a way to end war, infant mortality, world hunger and 3rd world debt in a week, and would give it to the world free of charge, he's still be crucified for it.

No offence meant.

A.

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Tomás Mulcahy
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302095 - 24/05/06 11:27 AM
The world of business is tough isn't it?

I am looking forward to the Wendeliser plugin. Terrible name, good sound library.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Andi]
      #302105 - 24/05/06 11:45 AM
No problem Andi, I didn’t see what you wrote as criticism and I’m certainly not annoyed; I just wanted the meaning of what I wrote to be clear. The written word can be so hard to interpret…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Martin WalkerModerator
Watcher Of The Skies


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #302139 - 24/05/06 12:35 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

Quote Martin Walker:

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.





I tried this.,,

if you play "properly" a la Pianist... and actually lift your foot completely off the sustain pedal for much of the time , it's not an issue.

if you leave it on the pedal all, or indeed, most, of the time, it is an issue.,

I bet sufferers don't take kindly to being told it's their piss poor technique

Max




Oh dear - this wasn't my intention at all. What I meant was that everyone plays differently, and despite playing LL3 lots and lots I haven't noticed this bug (now acknowledged by AAS by the way) at all when playing - not during the review period, or since.

In fact, I've just had to resort to downloading a thread from the AAS forum describing a specific patch and sequence of notes to play that's supposedly guaranteed to make it happen. This is truly ironic, as I've got a reputation among developers for discovering bugs that no-one else seems to spot


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #302169 - 24/05/06 01:24 PM
Quote noiseconjecture:

Quote Doublehelix:

Quote Andi:

Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from




It's a secret!!! Shhhhh...!!!




No its not - he got them here. Look in the source code.






Actually you provide a link to my web page storage area, that is not where I *got* them, but where I *store* them.

You can buy graemlins pretty much anywhere commercially, and there are some good collections available for free around the internet. Do a Google for "graemlins" and you will get a boatload of stuff.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #302178 - 24/05/06 01:44 PM
Martin, it wasn't intended in any way other than an interesting aside... merely to comment that i'd tried it after a client had raised the issue..

it may or may not be the cause of it, but it was more or less how i checked it out

under normal keyboard playing circumstances I probably wouldn't have found it at all.... as i don't use sustain pedals on them very often, I had to play at the (midi) piano, where i do use it a lot, (to cover my appalling technique) to find it .....

maybe I should just have Pm'ed it... as it's not actually relevant to the subject matter at hand....

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Andi



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Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #302233 - 24/05/06 03:18 PM
I personally have considered Double Helix to be a bit "Flash" since the "2 lava lamps" incident of a couple of years ago.

'nuf said!

A.

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Andi]
      #302235 - 24/05/06 03:21 PM
RND forums are back online. RN has posted on page two of this thread:

http://www.ioforums.net/forums/view_topic.php?id=290&forum_id=22&page=1

There is also a name change petition too:
http://www.ioforums.net/forums/view_topic.php?id=292&forum_id=15

FWIW, I couldn’t post using Firefox, had to resort to IE.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9076
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #302265 - 24/05/06 04:14 PM
Actually, I wasn't too keen on EA's original names (other than Inspector!) and I can understand RND wanting to make them a bit more "musician friendly".

Good to see he's finally responded too.


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Andi]
      #302266 - 24/05/06 04:14 PM
Quote Andi:

I personally have considered Double Helix to be a bit "Flash" since the "2 lava lamps" incident of a couple of years ago.

'nuf said!

A.





Hehe... and I still have those 2 lava lamps!!! Wouldn't be a *real* studio without them, right???

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Andi



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Posts: 1203
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #302268 - 24/05/06 04:17 PM
And I still have only one, but mine's radio controlled!

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Andi]
      #302273 - 24/05/06 04:19 PM
Quote Andi:

And I still have only one, but mine's radio controlled!





Oh man, I am jealous now!

I just read the Roger Nichols response, and I think it was fair and well thought-out. I am glad that he finally addressed this in person.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Guy Johnson



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Posts: 4364
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302282 - 24/05/06 04:35 PM
Beer was nice, and apologies fro being Grumpy, last night!

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #302286 - 24/05/06 04:40 PM
Quote Doublehelix:

I just read the Roger Nichols response, and I think it was fair and well thought-out.




To a point, maybe, BUT -

"2) We are in the middle of adding features, improving those that exist, and creating TDM versions and versions for other hardware platforms.

3) RND purchased the rights to the Elemental plug-ins because I think they are the best available and will add to the future line-up to be offered by RND.

4) RND will be funding further developement of Elemental products as well as using Elemental to add their expertise in the developement of our plug-ins.

5) I am paid rather well for engineering and producing and do not need to rip off customers who buy plug-ins."

'Scuse me if I'm being thick here but don't you do these things BEFORE you increase the price? It's like Ford tripling the price of the current model so they can invest in developing the next model, which you might not even want to buy once you see it....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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gerard



Joined: 07/02/05
Posts: 2608
Loc: London, UK
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #302314 - 24/05/06 05:07 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


'Scuse me if I'm being thick here but don't you do these things BEFORE you increase the price? It's like Ford tripling the price of the current model so they can invest in developing the next model, which you might not even want to buy once you see it....





well, it is true there is a sucker born every minute...

that's a lot of marks, i mean customers....


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Doublehelix



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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #302372 - 24/05/06 07:20 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

'Scuse me if I'm being thick here but don't you do these things BEFORE you increase the price? It's like Ford tripling the price of the current model so they can invest in developing the next model, which you might not even want to buy once you see it....





Great point, and I have to agree 100%. I guess my point was that at least he addressed the issue directly rather than hiding under a rock or behind an alias. His response was metered and not filled with (too much) emotional baggage considering the beating he has been taking the last few days.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #302388 - 24/05/06 07:43 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

Quote Martin Walker:

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.





I tried this.,,

if you play "properly" a la Pianist... and actually lift your foot completely off the sustain pedal for much of the time , it's not an issue.

if you leave it on the pedal all, or indeed, most, of the time, it is an issue.,

I bet sufferers don't take kindly to being told it's their piss poor technique

i am guilty of occasionally using the sustain pedal as a kind of reverb thing.... and it's this type of use that i think causes the problems .


but I'm a guitarist, so i have an excuse

Max





FWIW, the "velocity build-up" issue represents a flaw in the AAS model, affecting all presets. As someone pointed out on the AAS forum, the developers attest a certain fondness for the DX-7 keyboard, which is problematic when programming velocity response on external devices since it outputs a limited MIDI velocity range (limited to 100, I believe). Been there, done that back in the 1980's, after programming a Yamaha TX-816 from a DX-7, only to be left scratching my head when the TX-816 sounded so dramatically different when driven by another MIDI controller.

In fact, I still have an old DX-7 around, and verified the velocity build-up issue with LL is nowhere as problematic or noticeable when using a DX-7 vs. a properly-designed MIDI controller. Is that the CAUSE of the problem with the LL model? I dunno, but it's worth considering, and an astute pick-up by one of the LL forum readers. Worth considering...


@@@

Martin, my point was (and is) that some here are willing to string up RN for supposed ethical violations because he dared to write a guest column (not even a REVIEW) without disclosing to SOS editors that he might *gasp!* buy rights to distribute a software plug-in in the future... My point wasn't to grill you, just to point out the lunacy of such an unrealistic expectation for foretelling future events, not to mention being held to a much higher ethical standard than even the reviewers.

As someone already pointed out in this thread, the easy answer is to have articles written by people with NO professional experience or potentially entangling ties and relationships with manufacturers, just to remain lily-white and pristine from such ethical issues. Obviously not even a reasonable alternative. Like I said upfront, you disclosed the association in the article, and that suffices for me.

Now, I may not necessarily agree with the decision of allowing them to use your name as "signature sounds", primarily because it created the APPEARANCE of conflict and some sort of endorsement arrangement, and that serves no purpose but ego gratification and worse, to raise questions of this type. For if your intent was simply to unleash the presets for the benefit of humanity, it certainly could've been done without needing to attach anyone's name to them.

But whatever: that's you call and your reputation, and as I said upfront you disclosed the association in the article, so I have no beef with it... Just pointing out that the conspiracy theorists can use something like that to hatch a motive (e.g. velocity build-up issue), as they've done with RN and his guest column. The point was to show how ludicrious such attempts can be, not to actually do the same.


@@@@@


But Max, are you saying playing a single note repeatedly with the sustain pedal down constitutes poor technique, as does a trill? Rolling on octaves with your left hand with the sustain pedal down is poor technique for electric piano? Wow, I'm sure Rhodes masters like Ray Charles, Bill Evans, Chick Corea and Stevie Wonder will be glad to learn of this (at least those who aren't dead).

I suspect Max is making a subtle reference to my prior post about the classically-trained guy who imposes his view of "proper" musicianship on the rest of the world. Please Max, tell me it's meant as irony/sarcasm. Although, we can't completely exclude that the last sentence in his post might have something to do with this statement....

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302481 - 24/05/06 10:34 PM
Great! Now we're into piano technique. Something important at last!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #302511 - 24/05/06 11:34 PM
Lol....

many a true word spoken in jest Steve mate...

and Feefer...

think...

Chuckle chuckle.



Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302571 - 25/05/06 07:07 AM
The following is the leaked first scene of an original film script featuring an entirely fictitious software company called Mental Audio (who just reported another year of ‘triple digit growth’) and an entirely fictitious Famous Recording Engineer. All similarities with real entities and persons, either living or dead, is unintentional and entirely coincidental. The script is soon to be made into a major motion picture, and is currently the subject of a massive bidding war between Hollywood's biggest players.


Scene 1
Location: INTERIOR. Trade-show hospitality junket

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: You guys at Mental Audio rock - I love your plug-ins, man!
MENTAL AUDIO: Gee, thanks, it’s always nice to hear positive feedback from our customers, especially well-known ones like yourself - may we add you to our list of ‘name’ users?
FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: Absolutely. But look, I really wanna team-up with you guys - I’ve got some amazing new ideas for your plug-ins.
MENTAL AUDIO: Right... but we heard you are developing your own line of plug-ins, doesn’t that make us competitors?
FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: No, no. I’m strictly going after the Pro-Tools market, and besides it’s not like you’re developing a Brendel-izer now is it (laughs). Anyway, I’m sure once you hear my ideas you’ll want to enter into some sort of collaboration with me.
MENTAL AUDIO: These must be pretty cool ‘ideas’! We’re listening...

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: OK guys, first off, how about some hip new names and happenin’ graphics for your stuffy old plug-ins?
MENTAL AUDIO: Hmm... changing the names and look of plug-ins seems like a lot more hassle than it’s worth and destroys hard-won brand identity. Well, just out of interest what did you have in mind?
FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: The whole range needs a complete redesign - brushed chrome look and feel is where it’s at these days, man.
MENTAL AUDIO: Really? Is it that important? Of all the things our customers ask us for tweaking aesthetics is very low on the list - actually, most of them are quite happy with the ‘look’ of our plug-ins and praise our clean GUI’s.
FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: But I was thinking more cool names that will appeal to the kids, like Dyna-miter - we could have a picture of an aeroplane dropping bombs for that one - and then the EQ could be a Frequal-ator ‘cos it’s kind of a cool play on words and would go well with this image of an electrified cartoon dinosaur I saw on the back of a cereal packet.
MENTAL AUDIO: Er... moving right along...

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: Guys, there’s this cool thing called an iLok which I take with me to all the studios I engineer in around the world and it has all my plug-ins on it - can I get my Mental Audio plugs on to that please?
MENTAL AUDIO: Cheers, but we do actually know what an iLok is, and it’s not like you’re the first customer who has asked us for this! Seriously, we might look at adding this as an option, but you need to be aware that for every customer who wants iLok support we have ten who categorically don’t want it - indeed, the lack of draconian copy-protection is often cited by our customers as a key factor in buying and recommending our plug-ins! These are the same customers that helped us to triple digit growth each year. We surely wouldn’t want to mess with that, would we?
FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: OK, but I heard the iLok solves all your crack problems immediately?
MENTAL AUDIO: Ha-ha! You know what, folks are always going to find a way of cracking software no matter what sort of protection you bundle with it. Any software company that thinks otherwise is just plain naive. Here at Mental Audio we feel that if we offer a good product at a fair price and back that up with excellent customer service people will pay for it - our triple digit growth each year would seem to support that philosophy don’t you think? Of course, this is impossible to gauge but if you look out there at our target market, which ranges from professionals to serious amateurs, we reckon that out of this target market a very large percentage are fully paid-up customers - they place value on their time and musical activity and want to own our products. Sure, there’s the teenagers and geeks who simply like to collect cracked software “because it’s there” - some maybe even play with it, but neither of these groups are using our software in any serious capacity and don’t appear in our forecasts, so we can just ignore them. And no software company in their right mind is relying on sales figures from places like Russia to bolster their profits.

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: I need a manual that I can read on the plane.
MENTAL AUDIO: Well you could just ask your people to print out the PDF ones we supply and put it in a nice binder for you? Adding a printed manual would be a huge extra cost for us, force us to hike up the price, and destroy the direct online marketing model for our business (that has helped us to triple digit growth every year) as we’d start having to mail stuff out physically. But sure, we could price up a nice expensive-looking glossy one just for you personally - you won’t mind if it costs you $5,000 for a one-off print-run and every time we update something we bill you for a reprint?
FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: Hmm...

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: My gear dealer usually brings around all the latest cool stuff for me to try. He’s complaining that times are hard as he can’t cream off a cut of your profits if you sell direct to me online - c’mon, the man’s gotta eat! Can’t you box up your plug-ins in loads of completely unnecessary and ecologically damaging raw materials so he has a physical ‘product’ to bring around (weeks after it's available online) and can pretend he’s providing me with a service and claim his usual 20%?
MENTAL AUDIO: No.

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: What if I let you have some of the settings I’ve used on a couple of records and you include them as presets?
MENTAL AUDIO: Well, we’re delighted to hear you found some good settings that work for the music you're engineering, but how on earth could you be sure these exact settings will work for all the other music our customers are mixing and mastering? But hey, you know what, it could be a money-spinner - there are some lazy folks out there who are dumb enough to think that their music will instantly sound like a Steely Dan record if they strap a “Famous Recording Engineer Compressor Preset” over it. How about we make a suite of downloadable ‘signature’ presets for an extra $10? - that seems like a fair price in view of how much time it would actually take you and what our customers might be prepared to pay.
FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: A $10 optional add-on? I was thinking that bundling my presets with your plug-ins would instantly make them worth $349 each!
MENTAL AUDIO: Exactly what do you take our customers for?

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: OK, great - I'm glad we've got the makings of a deal hashed out! Guys, it's important that we don't tell anyone about all these exciting developments - just throw up a splashscreen on your website saying your plug-ins aren't available anymore, redirect them to my site and we'll take it from there.
MENTAL AUDIO: That's a bizarre way of treating people and doing business - it could lead to confusion and uncertainty resulting in negative publicity for both of us, and we wouldn't want that would we! Here at Mental Audio we've always tried our best to keep our customers up-to-date and informed, after all it's they who have helped us to triple-digit growth annually and they who are our most valuable asset for the future.

FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER: Alright guys, I’ll come clean. What I really wanted was some help from your programming boffins in getting my own series of plug-ins off the ground - having my name emblazoned across a range of serious audio products is the one thing missing from my otherwise impressive portfolio, and all the other Famous Recording Engineers are doing it. I’ve thought long and hard about this and I’ve come to the conclusion that the one secret ingredient Not-So-Famous Recording Engineers need to become famous like me is an Itchin’-Twitchin'-Witchin-izer plug-in - I’ve sketched out some doodles in crayon on the back of an old school book while we've been talking...
MENTAL AUDIO: Goodbye - please don’t call us again, and don't give up your day job!

to be continued...


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302580 - 25/05/06 07:45 AM
Exactly, here is a fictitious conversation with the marketing department.

FRE : "what's the biggest selling music at the moment"

Marketing manager : "probably hip hop, but there are others of course"

FRE : Ok I've heard hip hop, it uses lots of obscene language right and girls are called bitches?"

MM : "Yeah lots"

FRE : " right we'lll call the limiter the bitchin-izer with a z. What's more we'll make it street - the strap line could be :

Want to make your nasty beats really bad? then brothers need this muthaf----r. hey you know what I'm saying?"

MM "you are so cool, not only are you an expert on dighering but you really know what street kids think aswell"


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SecretSam
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302581 - 25/05/06 07:46 AM
Very nicely done, James. I hope they print it in the magazine - facing what's-his-name's column.

--------------------
Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #302798 - 25/05/06 01:49 PM
Quote:

to be continued...




I’m certainly looking forward to the next thrilling instalment

But I must say James, I’m kinda disappointed you’ve already sold out and entered a bidding war with Hollywood, the home of: stars of stage, screen and gutter.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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S G H Houbart



Joined: 26/02/06
Posts: 73
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #302807 - 25/05/06 02:00 PM
Quote noiseconjecture:

FRE : " right we'lll call the limiter the bitchin-izer with a z. "





Roger does look like the sort of dude who could market a fat slapper reverb.


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Feefer
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Joined: 10/04/03
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #302833 - 25/05/06 02:35 PM
Quote noiseconjecture:

Exactly, here is a fictitious conversation with the marketing department.

FRE : "what's the biggest selling music at the moment"

Marketing manager : "probably hip hop, but there are others of course"

FRE : Ok I've heard hip hop, it uses lots of obscene language right and girls are called bitches?"

MM : "Yeah lots"

FRE : " right we'lll call the limiter the bitchin-izer with a z. What's more we'll make it street - the strap line could be :

Want to make your nasty beats really bad? then brothers need this muthaf----r. hey you know what I'm saying?"

MM "you are so cool, not only are you an expert on dighering but you really know what street kids think aswell"





God, it is pathetic that anyone cares enough to even worry about the name here? Didn't one of your boys write, "A rose by any other name"? But apparently you Brits know nothing about American colloquial terms, either. The above is funny, a Brit's perception of American coversation. That's OK: my landyard thing was based on an old "Mutiny on the Bounty" movie, with Capt Bligh....

Anyway, the term 'bitchin' stems back from the early 1970's in So. California (it was popular amongst teens when I was a kid). Ever seen surfer/stoner Jeff Spicoli in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High"? It was used quite alot to suggest something that's way cool. It predates hip-hop by a few decades.

Use the term today, and it's so outdated that anyone under 40 would have no idea what you're talking about. You're missing the subtle irony: the term 'bitchen' is so passe, so dated, so 1970s', so anti- to what the young kids are doing today, that it's kind of a statement in and of itself. Really now: if he were trying to use terms the urban kids are using today, he might've called some product "the Krunkinizer", or perhaps "the Phatizer" (too easy).


You guys are worrying WAAAYYY too much about names. "Lounge Lizard?" I mean, the nerve of naming a plug-in after a reptile!

Get a grip: plug-ins use silly names. Shall we go down the list?


Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #302840 - 25/05/06 02:45 PM
Feefer, put the shovel down and step away from the hole…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #302846 - 25/05/06 02:49 PM
Quote Feefer:



Anyway, the term 'bitchin' stems back from the early 1970's in So. California (it was popular amongst teens when I was a kid). Ever seen surfer/stoner Jeff Spicoli in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High"? It was used quite alot to suggest something that's way cool. It predates hip-hop by a few decades.

Use the term today, and it's so outdated that anyone under 40 would have no idea what you're talking about. You're missing the subtle irony: the term 'bitchen' is so passe, so dated, so 1970s', so anti- to what the young kids are doing today, that it's kind of a statement in and of itself. Really now: if he were trying to use terms the urban kids are using today, he might've called some product "the Krunkinizer", or perhaps "the Phatizer" (too easy).




This is another example of the huge cultural differences between America and the UK. The first time I heard musicians use *bitch* was in the 80s when guitarists would say it would *feed back like a bitch*, used in a perjorative sense. I certainly didn't know its provenance was in 70s California. I do think its a crass name though but if it is the same as the Finis or better I would still probably buy it.
However I would think a huge number of Americans find the name offensive whereas a huge number of people in the UK would probably find it amusing.
We have to have a sense of irony and humour in the uk, how else could we cope with our politicians.

However it does occur to one to wonder if RND is a insolent cad.


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #302849 - 25/05/06 02:53 PM
Quote Tim Rainey:

Quote:

to be continued...




I’m certainly looking forward to the next thrilling instalment

But I must say James, I’m kinda disappointed you’ve already sold out and entered a bidding war with Hollywood, the home of: stars of stage, screen and gutter.



Yeah well, gotta make back the money I wasted on breaking plug-ins somehow!

Tarantino's onboard to direct, Anthony Hopkins will be playing the louche FAMOUS RECORDING ENGINEER trying a new career move, with Ben Stiller and Owen Wilson taking the fast-talking comic roles of the dudes from MENTAL AUDIO who find themselves in way over their heads. We all fill out the roles of EXTRAS who, as usual, get kicked about and shat on from a great height. I haven't figured who will play the LOVE INTEREST as there isn't really a whole lot of love going around in this picture!


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SecretSam
active member


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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302892 - 25/05/06 04:04 PM
Right. That's enough banter.

I'm off to the pub to drink some stupid-izer.

--------------------
Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

Edited by SecretSam (25/05/06 04:05 PM)


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ZombieSlugs
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Joined: 18/03/02
Posts: 136
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: SecretSam]
      #302921 - 25/05/06 05:06 PM
Once you're drunk you'll be ready for the next plugin coming up..

The SODOM-IZER!

It'll anal-yze your audio with it's special "vibro action" dongle!!!

--------------------
http://www.zombieslugs.com


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Tim.]
      #302946 - 25/05/06 05:46 PM
Quote Tim Rainey:

Feefer, put the shovel down and step away from the hole…


Feefer is right though.


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Lars Farm



Joined: 11/11/04
Posts: 66
Loc: Sundsvall, Sweden
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #302951 - 25/05/06 05:57 PM
Quote Feefer:

God, it is pathetic that anyone cares enough to even worry about the name here? ... Get a grip: plug-ins use silly names.




If a buyer chooses to keep his money because the name puts him off then I'd say it is a poorly chosen name.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #302953 - 25/05/06 05:59 PM
Quote James Lehmann:

I haven't figured who will play the LOVE INTEREST as there isn't really a whole lot of love going around in this picture!




How about Feefer and LittleM?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #302977 - 25/05/06 06:31 PM
Quote Feefer:

Anyway, the term 'bitchin' stems back from the early 1970's in So. California (it was popular amongst teens when I was a kid).




And in civilized parts of the world it's about as offensive to women as calling black people niggers.

And if Mr Global Distribution Network Let Me Sell Your Products Cos I Know Everything There Is To Know About Everything can't work that out with, at a minimum, a couple of phone calls, then he truly deserves his imminent bankruptcy does he not?

I look forward to the Ku Klux Klanalizer next!

Jeez, this guy is such a moron.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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OmarHash



Joined: 12/02/06
Posts: 158
Loc: West Vancouver, British Columb...
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #302990 - 25/05/06 06:58 PM
who the hell in north america says "bitchin'" anymore!!!

"hey man, that was like tooootally BITCHIN' duuuuuuuude!" <<------ so 1975

2006 update -------->> "coke-bitch-blowin-izer" <<------- roger ramjet, take note! change your plugin's name to this.

"Rub-on-Gum'nizer"
"CokkarrrRRoach'nizer"

etc... now that's the cali way!

--------------------
Adopt kids, not styles!!!!!


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ZombieSlugs
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Joined: 18/03/02
Posts: 136
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: OmarHash]
      #303008 - 25/05/06 07:49 PM
Ok, it's time for an "o-rly-izer"!

And I haven't heard "bitchin'" for years.. and I live in the San Francisco Bay Area!

Whaaatever..

--------------------
http://www.zombieslugs.com


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Feefer
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #303009 - 25/05/06 07:49 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote Feefer:

Anyway, the term 'bitchin' stems back from the early 1970's in So. California (it was popular amongst teens when I was a kid).




And in civilized parts of the world it's about as offensive to women as calling black people niggers.




Geez, you don't get it.

The term Bitchen' has NOTHING to do with the derogatory use of the word "bitch", which BTW IS entirely unoffensive in proper usage (when referring to a female dog). Obviously it's not flattering to use the term 'bitch' to describe a women, and you'll deservedly get bitch-slapped if you say it to the wrong women.

On the other hand, if you told a girl back in the 1970's that her Farrah Fawcett "wings" hairstyle were bitchen, she'd be flattered. It was the ultimate complement, saying something possessed coolness to the point of causing wide-eyed amazement.

As an aside, why do some Brits get so offended by the word 'bloody'? I think of a bloody bandage, and there's nothing intrinsically offensive in the idea of something covered with blood (aside from violent implications, but whatever).... What have you guys done to the word to load so much baggage onto it? Is it simply because it serves as a space-filler for potentially more offensive words that it's considered so vile? Or is it a vague reference to the female menstrual cycle? Sorry, I just don't get why you guys get your panties in a wad over that word...


Anyway, when I saw the name of the plug-in "Bitchen-izer", I didn't think deep about it, but read it as kind of a jab at the silly marketing bullshit and hyperbole that is so prevalent in the MI industry, and yet sadly, so effective at stimulating sales (where's my sonic maximizer?). The claim of a plug-in that single-handedly makes the mix sound 'so bitchen' on it's own is so intrinsically silly that you don't take it's claim seriously, and it struck me as being more parody than anything.

Does it offer some sonic benefit? How does it sound? I dunno: haven't heard it. It probably sounds quite bitchen. It probably imparts it's unique quality to the sound, and some may find it quite useful to obtain a certain effect. But guess what: that describes ANY plug-in you can imagine, whether a compressor, reverb, phaser/chorus, etc.

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: OmarHash]
      #303011 - 25/05/06 07:54 PM
Quote OmarHash:

who the hell in north america says "bitchin'" anymore!!!

"hey man, that was like tooootally BITCHIN' duuuuuuuude!" <<------ so 1975

2006 update -------->> "coke-bitch-blowin-izer" <<------- roger ramjet, take note! change your plugin's name to this.

"Rub-on-Gum'nizer"
"CokkarrrRRoach'nizer"

etc... now that's the cali way!




Dude, you Canucks should learn to spell it first: b-i-t-c-h-e-n. If you guys did, it would be gnarly.

Here's a reference to the controversy:

http://www.bitchen.com/bitchen/

Eytmology:

http://www.bitchen.com/bitchen/etymology.html

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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OmarHash



Joined: 12/02/06
Posts: 158
Loc: West Vancouver, British Columb...
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #303020 - 25/05/06 08:12 PM
^ ok there, Webster!

--------------------
Adopt kids, not styles!!!!!


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #303112 - 25/05/06 10:29 PM
Quote Feefer:

On the other hand, if you told a girl back in the 1970's that her Farrah Fawcett "wings" hairstyle were bitchen, she'd be flattered. It was the ultimate complement, saying something possessed coolness to the point of causing wide-eyed amazement.




No, two or three teenage girls in SoCal with nothing for brains might have found it complimentary. The rest of the world would not. There is nothing cool (and never was) in gratuitous offensiveness, although some sectors of teenage juvenalia have always though that by being outrageous enough they might possibly make it so.

You yanks (well some of you, I exclude certain friends!) are so f***ing insular at times it is really beyond belief.

You are right: the only legitimate usage of the word is to describe a female dog. Most women I am aquainted with rightly resent that comparison. My wife finds this offensive therefore I do (although as it happens I did not need her to tell me it was offensive to start with).

Now for f**k's sake grow up and stop trying to defend the indefensible.

P.S. My wife is a co-director of my company, and an intelligent, liberated sometime singer for some major acts. And if she tells me we aren't having something childishly offensive in the studio, believe me - it ain't going to happen!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (25/05/06 10:36 PM)


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Reds
new member


Joined: 18/02/03
Posts: 333
Loc: Beautiful side of the river.
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #303114 - 25/05/06 10:34 PM
Ok. How about "The Bitumen-izer" instead.

These plugs are totally water-proof, and non-offensive to women whilst having the benefit of sounding it. A bit.

Edited by Reds (25/05/06 10:37 PM)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Feefer]
      #303124 - 25/05/06 11:13 PM
Quote Feefer:

As an aside, why do some Brits get so offended by the word 'bloody'? I think of a bloody bandage, and there's nothing intrinsically offensive in the idea of something covered with blood (aside from violent implications, but whatever).... What have you guys done to the word to load so much baggage onto it?





OK, let's deal with that one too. It's commonly held to be a contraction of "By Our Lady" and therefore blasphemous vis-a-vis the Virgin Mary (without exploring in any great detail any menstrual subtexts attached to this notion), and therefore good upright God-fearing Christian folk avoid the word.

I, on the other hand, don't give a bloody toss.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #303135 - 25/05/06 11:31 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


I, on the other hand, don't give a bloody toss.




On the one hand if one group of people use a term in a non insulting manner, it isn't ok because some people might get offended, but if you use another term that you find ok but might offend some people it is ok? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

Anyway, however silly I might find the term bitchen, it isn't quite the same thing as calling a woman a bitch.

UnderTow


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: UnderTow]
      #303140 - 25/05/06 11:41 PM
and the MRT point behind all this ???




--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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UnderTow
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #303143 - 25/05/06 11:47 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

and the MRT point behind all this ???





Point? I think this thread is way beyond making any point.

Talking about points, care to respond to the Liquid Mix thread since I have backed my comments with technical documents from the makers or do you just like to fling mud and run away?

UnderTow


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tomas
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Joined: 04/02/03
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Loc: Luxembourg
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #303168 - 26/05/06 01:10 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

And if she tells me we aren't having something childishly offensive in the studio, believe me - it ain't going to happen!




Yeah, my wife can be a bit of a bitch too sometimes...

--------------------
cheers,
t-:


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James Lehmann



Joined: 17/05/05
Posts: 2011
Loc: Europe
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #303184 - 26/05/06 06:17 AM
Getting back on topic...

STOP PRESS! This is unbelievable - Roger Nichols Digital have just put THE PRICES OF THE PLUG-INS BACK UP TO $349!!!!!!!!!

All bets are off now - RND has behaved in an almost comically unprofessional manner from the minute they announced their involvement with Elemental Audio; my advice to the latter would be to do all they can to reneg on their deal and start re-selling their own plug-ins before the whole operation blows completely apart. I am sure the folks at EA are cursing the day they ever got involved with RND - heads must surely roll somewhere.

We've been through the roller-coaster of anger, disappointment, outrage etc etc - there's really only one course of action left and that is simply to laugh at this whole sad, sordid, pathetic business. How grown men can make such utter fools of themselves in public is quite beyond me but any shred of credibility still held by RND/EA has now completely evaporated with this plug-in yo-yo pricing business. No company can casually flip the pricing of such an item by +/- $100 on a daily basis and expect to be taken seriously by its customers.

Hey folks - let's have a sweepstake on what the price of the plug-ins will be tomorrow! My money's on $0.00 as RND is clearly hell-bent on self-destruction and will very soon be out of business.


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SecretSam
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Joined: 29/10/02
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Loc: Officially, I do not exist.
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ZombieSlugs]
      #303188 - 26/05/06 07:22 AM
I wish I had read your post last night, Wooly.

That Sodom-izer really compresses your bottom end.

--------------------
Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.


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SecretSam
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Joined: 29/10/02
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Loc: Officially, I do not exist.
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #303190 - 26/05/06 07:29 AM
But ... BOT (back on topic)

I wonder whether, in the light of twelve pages of mostly negative posts viewed some 2600+ times (and counting) by the anorakiest and most opinionated audio geeks around the world, Elemental Audio will be able to extricate themselves from this ill-advised business deal and get back to doing what they do best ... producing great software without dongles at good prices ?

Fingers crossed.

--------------------
Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: James Lehmann]
      #303201 - 26/05/06 08:02 AM
Quote James Lehmann:

STOP PRESS! This is unbelievable - Roger Nichols Digital have just put THE PRICES OF THE PLUG-INS BACK UP TO $349!!!!!!!!!




It's always sad to see a decent business self-destruct.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Elemental Audio plugins no more - sold to Roger Nichols Inc! new [Re: ChrisCarter]
      #303223 - 26/05/06 08:53 AM