Quote:
"As of May 19, 2006, Elemental Audio products are no longer available for purchase. All Elemental Audio products are now exclusively licensed and distributed by Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"

Which seems to translate to:

Same plugins, but awful new names!
Same plugins, but new inflated prices!
Same plugins, but now iLok'ed!

End of an era?



Links:
Announcement on Elemental Audio website
Roger Nichols Digital

Chris - I've added some links to your post (as it's the first in the discussion) to give readers of this thread some quick reference.

Edited by James Lehmann (21/05/06 06:08 AM)

You're right those are horrible names.

Still Finis was the only one I was missing.

C

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Dual 2Ghz G5 2.5GB RAM, Logic Pro 7.2, Logic Control, MOTU 828mkII Drumkit from Hell C&V and Superior, EW QLSO Gold, Zebra and Cameleon, Melodyne Uno, Atmosphere, Max/MSP

The prices have gone from $169 for the Firium/Eqium bundle to, get this, $698 for the pair. I’ve heard of people taking the piss but that is beyond words!



I’ve updated my review in the user reviews section:

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=300037&page=0&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1#Post300037

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

This Roger Nichols fellow seems a bit of a [ ****** ].

This is very bad news.

Oh, well. I was going to buy some. As you say, taking the piss.

OMG! I'm sticking with my original, vintage, Elemental Audio versions...

The contrast between EA's old graphics / names / 'feel' and the newimproved Roger Nichols approach, couldn't be greater. That's to say, class vs. crass. And unless he's planning some extraordinary updates, I wouldn't be surprised if he has trouble shifting the plugs at the prices he's set. Finis/Equium et al are good, but at $349 a pop, they're now competing with some very desirable (well, for a plug in...) competitors. At their previous prices, it was a no-brainer. Now?.....

And what's happened to the Inspector XL bundle? That was one of the best things EA made, and it seems to have disappeared.

As someone else said, end of an era.

According to his forum, the Bitchin-izer, the Level-izer and the Wendel-izer are in development and coming next.

I kid you not with the names.

I guess Bitchinizer = Finis, Levelizer = InspectorXL and Wendel-izer is some kinda sample replacer...

Is that the same Roger Nichols who writes that column I never read in SOS?

The very one.

Edit: looks like the last three plugins are not former EA ones, but his own creations:

http://www.rndigital.com/Bitchin.html
http://www.rndigital.com/Level.html
http://www.rndigital.com/Wendel.html

"This control incorporates the scientific application of magic."

Er.. nice...

Edited by desmond (20/05/06 09:57 PM)

Quote:

---

Is that the same Roger Nichols who writes that column I never read in SOS?

---

The very same!
.

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Web Site | Twitter | iTunes

Oh My God! That is a Masive massive massive Shock, I loved that company - jeez I am gonna have to find a new one.

Not a Chance in hell am I gonna pay for plugs that look so sh*te and cost twice as much! are you kidding - I actually cannot beleive that, whoa what a bummer. I am still in shock, what a Tw*t that guy is.

I am so Angry.

C**p, S**t, B****r, B******s, I was days away from buying the full max bundle, they looked like the best plugins on the market in terms of how they sounded and what they did, wish I could still find a way I could get hold of copies of them, anyone got any ideas?

Stu

*cough* ITS ILLEGAL AND WE DONT TOLERATE IT! *cough*
















Not that i would.

Edited by Max The Mac (20/05/06 11:37 PM)

Quote Disco Stu:

---

C**p, S**t, B****r, B******s, I was days away from buying the full max bundle, they looked like the best plugins on the market in terms of how they sounded and what they did, wish I could still find a way I could get hold of copies of them, anyone got any ideas?

Stu

---

yes.

BUY THEM

Cracks are utterly illegal, and we have a complete zero tolerance policy on this forum/.

and it's NOT up for debate either.

I have to add, that I utterly utterly agree that this is IMHO a complete disaster


I have all the Elemental plug ins, which i bought and paid for quite happily....

However, there's no way on gods green earth i'd pay the new prices for them.

BUT


anyone who's kept an eye on such things will have seen various illegal versions floating about , so it's possible , indeed quite likely, , probable even, that this state of affairs is a direct result of people using cracked versions instead of buying them!
if Roger Nichols can afford to buy them outright, then it leads one to suspect their turnover and cashflow might have been terminally in short supply.

So , it's probably very much a "ye shall reap what you sow.." situation.


why do you think SOS in print and forums are SO anti theft of intellectual property ?? all of them, music , samples and software, require funds to develop and support.....

developers don't have some magic money tree in the back garden either....

so, just like anyone else, if no one pays them, they go bust , or get bought out....... or both.

Max

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Here is what I think:

1) I understand how you guys feel about this, I too first was very disappointed,
mainly because of the price inflation... But then I read the word "Partner" ! So it means that the engineers behind EA are still alive and are going to keep going at it... That is at least a good news.

2) In all honesty, I always felt a bit sorry for EA, because their stuff was cheap and not very popular, I mean they don't always get mentioned as top plugs in forums, but they are very good quality plugins and the staff at EA are really nice, I always though that they deserve much more attention. I did email them
before and payed my respect to them. Inspector was the very first free Spectrum Analyzer plugin, they ported it on every platform still free...

3) Now it is time for AE to get more attention and recognition, they well deserve it. So, what might have happened? some guys like Mr Roger thought that these plugs were really good and that the company EA could do with some help, so that is what is happening today. I don't know what deal they come up with though, I personally don't mind.

4) The best part is that Roger is popular and got some contacts and has got plans, meaning that the EA plugs that we all love are going to get better than they already are, newer + improved stuff, then Roger forces the iLok, we hate it but let's face it, it is good for the company because No piracy, no crack, if you see what I mean? EA stuff have been "patched" already and that is no good for the company, it means loss of earnings - end of business, period.
So, then people expect to see more plugs, updates and so on... but these guys need to eat as well you know. Today, using a crack plugin is the equivalent of stilling a car 20 years ago. Stilling a car is something physical, and big, ok, a plugin is a software that you cannot physically touch, ok, what is the relation then? Well, to me using cracks is like stilling the hard work of developers and engineers, months or year of hard work of their life...

5) We should be happy for EA, they deserve to break thru, they will grow and we will all benefit from it. I am not rich myself, and if i cannot afford the next
EA/Roger plugs, it doesn't matter... it is life, you can't always have the cake and eat it. These are my personnel comments and I don't mean to piss anyone of you off, in these world and life, money as always been a problem, take the price away and think of the benefit. EA have been quiet for a while, they are not loud people, and they will probably benefit from Mr Rogers' help,
we will see...

Ok, it was a long post, but i felt like saying that, because I too, first was quite pissed off, human thing you know, but second though took over quickly.
Ask yourself, why would EA do that? They surely don't want to disappoint us,
but they probably need help. That's it.

www.topfloormix.com

--------------------
-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/

Just read his entry in Wikipedia

I can think of a much more concise entry.

Dick.

Quote Max The Mac:

---

yes.

BUY THEM

Cracks are utterly illegal, and we have a complete zero tolerance policy on this forum/.

and it's NOT up for debate either.

I have to add, that I utterly utterly agree that this is IMHO a complete disaster


I have all the Elemental plug ins, which i bought and paid for quite happily....

However, there's no way on gods green earth i'd pay the new prices for them.

BUT


anyone who's kept an eye on such things will have seen various illegal versions floating about , so it's possible , indeed quite likely, , probable even, that this state of affairs is a direct result of people using cracked versions instead of buying them!
if Roger Nichols can afford to buy them outright, then it leads one to suspect their turnover and cashflow might have been terminally in short supply.

So , it's probably very much a "ye shall reap what you sow.." situation.


why do you think SOS in print and forums are SO anti theft of intellectual property ?? all of them, music , samples and software, require funds to develop and support.....

developers don't have some magic money tree in the back garden either....

so, just like anyone else, if no one pays them, they go bust , or get bought out....... or both.

Max

---

Indeed and im not trying to get my hands on them for free, I just can no longer afford to pay the new vastly increased price that roger is offering them for, if id have been able to get the cash 2 days earlier id have them now and wouldnt be complaining. They are plug ins which are too good to pass up easily.

Ok lets take another tack, does anyone know if anything very similar exists from another manufacturer, the plugins I was really interested in are the Unlimited band factor of Eqium coupled with its ease of use, and the quality of the Finis limiter, anyone found good comparable alternatives of a similar price?

Stu

Roger Nichols calls in at the Elemental Audio offices:
“Hi, just in case you didn’t know, I’m Roger Nichols!, seven times Grammy winner and I have a cool plan to make us both richer!!

Let’s put my name on your plug-ins then we can charge like four times the price, cool eh? Hey, better yet, let’s round it up to a cool sounding $698. Split 50/50 you get just over twice as much as you were getting. How cool is that!”


Piracy may have had an effect on events but I guarantee that hiking the price up to just over FOUR TIMES the previous price will have an even bigger effect on sales.

This ludicrously greedy price hike is a sign to other companies that this sort of thing is acceptable; it most certainly is not! I’m 100% sure the majority will be voting with their wallets.

As far as I’m concerned, all the original plug-ins work just fine thank-you-very-much. There is nothing Roger Nichols can do to improve them; he’s already shown he is capable of degrading their looks by plastering them with those silly brushed aluminium effect fronts and this whole EA ‘merger’ is an unmitigated public relations disaster.


Sorry, I previously forgot: thank you Chris Carter for bringing this to our attention.

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

For me, EA had a USP (unique selling point) that was made up of three things:

Quality, price and non-restrictive copy protection.

The last two points have been destroyed; in my book they no longer have a valid USP.

Destroy a company’s USP and you destroy the company.




--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

This news just ruined my weekend - I'm gutted!

I own the whole Elemental Audio suite and have invested a lot of time over the past year learning how to mix and master comfortably and quickly with these wonderful tools. I love Elemental Audio for all the reasons Tim gives above. In fact I've spent the last year weaning myself off Waves-addiction and remixing a lot of stuff with EA plug-ins, a company that I thought had products that were as good if not better than Waves at a more reasonable price and with no invasive CP.

I suppose I can continue using them unsupported until they break and no longer work with some future system upgrade - for example I dunno if they're gonna work with the Intel Macs.

Eqium had become my 'go-to' EQ with its clear interface and transparent sound and I found Finis an excellent limiter - these are the two I shall miss the most.

Alternatively I'll have to spend another year moving off EA plug-ins to another company, and relearning all their plug-ins. sigh...

I also now feel a little guilty for all the people that I've been enthusiastically talking these plug-ins up to over the last year or so - my apologies folks, I had no idea it would end like this!

Quote blueintheface:

---

Just read his entry in Wikipedia

I can think of a much more concise entry.

Dick.

---

"Roger is also an airplane pilot, and was close friends and flying buddies with singer/songwriter John Denver. He helped John pick out the new airplane in which he later died."

I hope that's not an omen for the long-term future of Finis, say....

Oh well, good while it lasted. I won't be buying any more of this stuff at the new prices, or anything like. Universal Audio continue to invest wisely and sensibly in the UAD range... there's other stuff out there which is quite usable!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote James Lehmann:

---

I suppose I can continue using them unsupported until they break and no longer work with some future system upgrade - for example I dunno if they're gonna work with the Intel Macs.

Eqium had become my 'go-to' EQ with its clear interface and transparent sound and I found Finis an excellent limiter - these are the two I shall miss the most.

Alternatively I'll have to spend another year moving off EA plug-ins to another company, and relearning all their plug-ins. sigh...

I also now feel a little guilty for all the people that I've been enthusiastically talking these plug-ins up to over the last year or so - my apologies folks, I had no idea it would end like this!

---

My Exact sentiments - What to do and where to move next.... Eqium is my staple basic EQ I put it on just about everything, and Firium I use for mastering. I am not going to sell my G5 Dual when I buy a new more powerful macintel so I will use it to master on.

I am now keeping a keen eye on a a good All round eq, (Focusrite Liquid Mix?).

I think the shock and dissapointment is because they were so 'inexpensive' and excellent - and the company was accessible and responsive. They may now have been brought up to date and more in-line with 'real world' prices but it is a brutal and insensitive transition, it has been done so unexpectedly and with no 'grace' or consideration to it's existing customers.

This indicates a significant change of management style and one that I am uncomfortable with.

If Mr Roger Tickles and his 'Bitchin' company do not offer a reasonable and sensibly priced 'transition' to Universal Binary then it is truly goodbye from this customer.

Never has: 'From the sublime to the ridiculous' seemed so apt.

Quote Topfloormix:

---

Today, using a crack plugin is the equivalent of stilling a car 20 years ago. Stilling a car is something physical, and big, ok, a plugin is a software that you cannot physically touch, ok, what is the relation then? Well, to me using cracks is like stilling the hard work of developers and engineers, months or year of hard work of their life...

---

I think using cracked software is like employing a musician to do several gigs then refusing to pay her/him and justifying it by saying "it doesn't cost you anything to do gigs, just time, so what's the problem? Afterall I didn't steal anything from you".
I'm sure what Roger Nichols writes is accurate otherwise SOS wouldn't publish his articles but after the first one I just accept the fact we live in different universes so they just don't convince me. I remember when George Duke wrote for Keyboard magazine in the 80s. That great keyboard player wrote utter tosh for the magazine and his articles stopped soon afterwards, lets hope that is an omen for SOS.

Bring back Big George, I'm on his wavelength.

As someone over on Roger’s own forum has posted, for the extortionate price he’s now changing for these plug-ins, you can get some pretty decent hardware…

Hmmmm, at least hardware doesn’t stop working when you update your OS or change sequencer versions… maybe a rethink is in order.
Roger's own forum

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

As someone over on Roger’s own forum has posted, for the extortionate price he’s now changing for these plug-ins, you can get some pretty decent hardware…

Hmmmm, at least hardware doesn’t stop working when you update your OS or change sequencer versions… maybe a rethink is in order.
Roger's own forum

---

Interesting comment, I was just thinking this morning that with the Waves authorisation change and some of my plug-ins no longer working in the latest versions of Logic, when I decide to buy a limiter, which will be soon, I am going to get a hardware one.
I think software is alright in two situations :

1. Its your main way of working, in my case Logic, so I keep up to date and accept I will have to buy upgrades (rather like maintainence on a reel to reel).

2. You accept it may only work for a few years so you in fact rent it. E.g. a software compressor costs £249.00, will last on your current system for about 18 months, so you look upon the retail price as renting it at £13.84 per month.

Whereas I think major record labels have largely created their own hell with overpriced CDs, and not responding to markets either quick enough or not at all, software companies are innocent victims of what is now considered acceptable theft.

Thank God I took advantage of their offer a few weeks back to pick up any software I didn't already have at an even cheaper price... I really love their stuff and the reason for this is plainly obvious....

STOP USING CRACKS, everyone, or all our favourite software will go the same way, as is an awful lot of good music. To me, there's no argument- if people don't pay for either music or software, the industry's f****d.

PAY FOR MUSIC YOU RESPECT, AND PAY FOR SOFTWARE YOU RESPECT.

I'm totally fed up with people, even musos, asking me to 'make a copy' of something they've just heard round my house that they like. When I remind them that maybe the musician concerned might need to get PAID for his work, simply to ensure there might be some more music from that source, they get all shitty and start moaning that it's too much trouble.

At which point I throw them out of the house for being the ********* they really are- willing to appreciate other people's creativity but too lazy and mean to go out and PAY for it.

GRRRRRRRRRR!

Sorry for the shouting, but I'm well pissed off this morning.



tomafd


--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote noiseconjecture:

---

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

As someone over on Roger’s own forum has posted, for the extortionate price he’s now changing for these plug-ins, you can get some pretty decent hardware…

---

Very true statement. Some people will always want to use hardware - me included. I get p***ed off enough every time apple try and squeeze our balls for minor upgrades to Logic, so I don't know how I'd feel if I owned a load of plugins that needed upgrading every 6 months or whatever. My system feels better without a load of plugins in there anyway, but that's way off topic (sorry).

I'm on the lookout for a decent hardware EQ. As for a good hardware limiter (someone asked) I bought one from this chap and can't rate it highly enough:

http://www.davelectronics.com/

As for iLok's - I simply won't use them. It seems that all these contributing factors in the EA - Mr Roger takeover are a case of lifting a rock, only to drop it on their own feet.

Quote tomafd:

---

I'm totally fed up with people, even musos, asking me to 'make a copy' of something they've just heard round my house that they like. When I remind them that maybe the musician concerned might need to get PAID for his work, simply to ensure there might be some more music from that source, they get all shitty and start moaning that it's too much trouble.

At which point I throw them out of the house for being the ********* they really are- willing to appreciate other people's creativity but too lazy and mean to go out and PAY for it.:

---

Exactly, I took a new Cd by a little known electronica duo to a friend who runs a recording studio. He listened to a few tracks, turned and looked at me and said "Very nice, copy please". I explained that they were a small group on their own label and I don't do illegal copies.
Can you believe he has just started his own production company and is trying to release his own records?

I blame Thatcher for a lot of it, she was the doyen of short-termism. Her entire policies were based on it.

Quote Breelo:

---

Quote noiseconjecture:

---

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

I'm on the lookout for a decent hardware EQ. As for a good hardware limiter (someone asked) I bought one from this chap and can't rate it highly enough:

http://www.davelectronics.com/

---

Sorry for taking this off topic; Breelo (or is it Noiseconjecture? - not too clear with the quotes) - what is the DAV limiter like? Transparent or 'characterful' What kind of material you using it on? I've been trying to find out info on this for ages, wondering whether to get a playmate for my BG1..... PM me if you like.

Right, back on topic....

Roger Nichols - you tosser!

Reid,

I'll drop you a PM.

I spend alot of time on an Irish clubbing forum and the guys on there simply don't understand the consequences of using file sharing and cracked software, I think the dance music people are definately the worst culprits in general.

It's hard not to spend all you're time badgering people, but I'm 100% certain I'd be making alot more money if it wasn't for people sharing MP3s and CDs.

I don't understand why heavier punishments aren't implimented to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.

It's depressing for me to realise at this stage in my career, that unless I become highly successful within my field that I'll never be able to support myself writing music.

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Quote Shaun Dark:

---

I spend alot of time on an Irish clubbing forum and the guys on there simply don't understand the consequences of using file sharing and cracked software, I think the dance music people are definately the worst culprits in general.

It's hard not to spend all you're time badgering people, but I'm 100% certain I'd be making alot more money if it wasn't for people sharing MP3s and CDs.

I don't understand why heavier punishments aren't implimented to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.

It's depressing for me to realise at this stage in my career, that unless I become highly successful within my field that I'll never be able to support myself writing music.

---

I don't think piracy is the main problem of failure.

I mean how many non linear phase EQ's can one have?Aren't they all the same,virtually?
I've only heard of these plugs a few months ago so how do I know thy exist within a large market?Funnily some companies forced their products to be cracked to be SEEN,then developed on demand.Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.

When Apple took over Emagic and stopped support for the PC version of Logic there were hundreds (if not thousands) of irate posts all over the web. The majority decried Apple’s tactics but there were still quite a few who said it would be a good thing.

Once again, all over the web, people are posting about this EA/RND event. This time it’s interesting to note the difference: there are virtually NO dissenters at all...

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Music Manic:

---

Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.

---

The very occasional sample I do use has been purchased in the form of a CD, the original artist/producer gets paid.

Also comparing a track in a narrow genre like say, tech trance, to that Gnarls Barkely track is a no brainer.

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Quote Music Manic:

---

I don't think piracy is the main problem of failure.

I mean how many non linear phase EQ's can one have?Aren't they all the same,virtually?
I've only heard of these plugs a few months ago so how do I know thy exist within a large market?

---

where have you been?? mars??

seriously, whenever someone asks about good EQ plugs, or is looking for a surgically useful "performance rescue device" dynamically, Elemental audio have always been recommended by the majority of the Mac forum users, , certainly i mention them every time some one asks "what's good?" or "|must have"

the Logic user group had a huge response to their group buy a couple of years ago......

look at the number of people lamenting their passing..... as it were...

I'm unlikely to buy anything called a "Bitchinizer"

the changes made are , frankly tacky and appallingly crass, it seems Mr Nichols has about as much taste as coach load of footie fans mooning a funeral cortege.

Max

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

I'll agree with Music Manic on one thing; most software companies are absolutely crap at marketing their products, be they good or bad.

Word of mouth just don't cut it

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

In the very first Mr. Nichols "bitch fest" thread, I told you that he as a... er... reputation of sorts. Seems that he has lived up to that reputation.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Shaun Dark:

---

Quote Music Manic:

---

Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.

---

The very occasional sample I do use has been purchased in the form of a CD, the original artist/producer gets paid.

Also comparing a track in a narrow genre like say, tech trance, to that Gnarls Barkely track is a no brainer.

---

OK what success have you had?
Lots of tracks use samples because companies want their material to be used again.They want to be "ripped off" because when the track is successful the artist ain't gonna have a chance.
Software is different ,but still,if they become well known a big company will take them over.

With the Gnarls track I was talking about a marketing strategy not a genre.plus how much money does Trance etc make compared to mainstream?

I Must learn to talk non-laterally on these sites.

Quote Max The Mac:

---

Quote Music Manic:

---

I don't think piracy is the main problem of failure.

I mean how many non linear phase EQ's can one have?Aren't they all the same,virtually?
I've only heard of these plugs a few months ago so how do I know thy exist within a large market?

---

where have you been?? mars??

seriously, whenever someone asks about good EQ plugs, or is looking for a surgically useful "performance rescue device" dynamically, Elemental audio have always been recommended by the majority of the Mac forum users, , certainly i mention them every time some one asks "what's good?" or "|must have"

the Logic user group had a huge response to their group buy a couple of years ago......

look at the number of people lamenting their passing..... as it were...

I'm unlikely to buy anything called a "Bitchinizer"

the changes made are , frankly tacky and appallingly crass, it seems Mr Nichols has about as much taste as coach load of footie fans mooning a funeral cortege.

Max

---

Ok so tell me(as an end user)why I should use Waves over Elemental Audio,over Uad etc,if it says linear-EQ plugin?
That means that the EQ should do that one thing right?

Seriously we can have different types of colouration plugins etc but when they are doing the same thing how are we supposed to know? We aren't programmers right?

I have $20 plugins that give me what I need and sound georgeous.I have stumbled on them by chance,so "reputation" by people just begs the question of it being a marketing ploy by company and pushes me away.

Look at Ohmboyz delay for example.absolutely beautiful.Who talks about them?

Quote Music Manic:

---

Quote Shaun Dark:

---

Quote Music Manic:

---

Piracy is wrong and unfair but as a DJ I bet you play tracks that have samples that have been filtered etc beyond recognition.

Again look at this Gnarls Barkley track.Sold on itunes before it hit the shops then became number1 and is still there.So I think there is method to beat this piracy into fairness.Won't go into economics and politics of it.

---

The very occasional sample I do use has been purchased in the form of a CD, the original artist/producer gets paid.

Also comparing a track in a narrow genre like say, tech trance, to that Gnarls Barkely track is a no brainer.

---

OK what success have you had?
Lots of tracks use samples because companies want their material to be used again.They want to be "ripped off" because when the track is successful the artist ain't gonna have a chance.


Software is different ,but still,if they become well known a big company will take them over.

With the Gnarls track I was talking about a marketing strategy not a genre.plus how much money does Trance etc make compared to mainstream?

I Must learn to talk non-laterally on these sites.

---

With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all


--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Edited by Shaun Dark (21/05/06 05:50 PM)

Quote:

---

With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all

---

Why am I talking crap?
Why do most people talk like they know it all when we're supposed to be knocking off eachother.

I'm saying however he did it he's made more sales than any track for a while and we all know that sales have dropped not just because of piracy but because of bad music.

There was a drum and bass track I was after for ages.I kept hearing it but no mention of what it was.Now how the hell am I supposed to buy it?
When I found out who it was by it was deleted,so the only way I could get it was how???

So how would you defeat piracy?

Also I've been into music for 20 year and have made little.
So what?

You keep blaming it on piracy.Why?

People in IT can't find jobs easily now,why?Oh it must be piracy.No it's saturated mate.

You think they couldn't stop piracy tomorrow if they wanted to?

You need to chill out.

P.S. You think somebody couldn't make a hit out of your or my track if they wanted to? What makes you or I so special?

Quote Max The Mac:

---

I'm unlikely to buy anything called a "Bitchinizer"

---

Made me jump too. It is the antithesis of the good solid knowledgeable impression that Elemental gave. When I look for something to do digital audio processing / filters then I expect good solid traditional established science, math and physics skills from whoever comes up with the algorithms. Elemental appeared to have that. The new one is an established producer of music. Completely different set of skills and the names... and the prices...

Breelo - check your PMs

Here's the thing .. what is a piece of software worth to you ? I'd say it's simply it's value over time.

Those buying the EA plugins (4 here) assumed they'd be able to get a few years use out of them, with a lower cost upgrade to a future version at the end of it.

So, today I can get a new version of any of those with a worse user interface, a clumsy and non-transparent rights protection system for twice the price - and the upgrade cost will probably be equivalent to the price of the original EA plugins given the scale up.

The VST industry complains about piracy - which is fair enough, but to my mind this sort of thing destroys the perception of the value of software. Next time an EA user buys software from a small company they are going to be mentally factoring in the cost of being screwed over - the result; the software will have a lower perceived value, and they won't be willing to pay as much.

If Elemental Audio were in financial trouble, fair enough, they seek a buyer. But there are two ways Roger Nichols could have bought up the company:

METHOD 1:

- Respect the existing client base by guaranteeing continued support
- Encourage new customers by keeping the price in the same ball-park
- Attract new customers by avoiding iLok
- Re-assure new customers by keeping sensible names for the plug-ins

METHOD 2:

- Alienate the existing client base by ceasing all support
- Put-off new customers by hiking up the price
- Put-off new customers by employing iLok
- Put-off new customers by giving the plug-ins silly names

Unfortunately he seems to have chosen Method 2.

Now maybe Roger Nichols knows something we don't about the software plug-in business, but given the above, I just can't see how he expects to make any money from this venture - there's absolutely no way anyone is going to be buying those plug-ins now! I predict a spectacular failure, meaning within a year the new plug-ins won't be around anymore.

Or.....

1. Explain to customers that due to piracy, huge revenue is being lost and livelihoods put at stake.

2. Continue to support existing customers, but...increase prices for new takers.

3. Maybe consider using ilok (I have No problem at all with that).

I would be completely on EAU's side - they are, were a killer company I would have paid 50% more for their plugs maybe more, I would be happy with iLok.

But what they have done is pretty strange, really.


Does Roger Tickles have a Master Plan to buy up all the small software companies so that he can control the known universe......

Bitchinizer!! - this is beyond a joke right, has Mr Tickles spent too much time around untreated Plutonium?, this guy on KVR said it right - Just wait until you find out about the next plugin called 'Sodom-izer' It turns on a special feature of the dongle that makes it 'anal-ize' you while you play! And it'll sell for only 499.95!!!

Quote Music Manic:

---

Quote:

---

With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all

---

Why am I talking crap?
Why do most people talk like they know it all when we're supposed to be knocking off eachother.

I'm saying however he did it he's made more sales than any track for a while and we all know that sales have dropped not just because of piracy but because of bad music.

There was a drum and bass track I was after for ages.I kept hearing it but no mention of what it was.Now how the hell am I supposed to buy it?
When I found out who it was by it was deleted,so the only way I could get it was how???

So how would you defeat piracy?

Also I've been into music for 20 year and have made little.
So what?

You keep blaming it on piracy.Why?

People in IT can't find jobs easily now,why?Oh it must be piracy.No it's saturated mate.

You think they couldn't stop piracy tomorrow if they wanted to?

You need to chill out.

P.S. You think somebody couldn't make a hit out of your or my track if they wanted to? What makes you or I so special?

---

To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy? Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.

And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

If Roger Nichols buys Audio Damage I am going to resort to violence. How much do you think SOS would charge to have someone rip out his articles before I buy my copy? How can you be an optimist when things like this happen.

Quote Noiseflaw:

---

Does Roger Tickles have a Master Plan to buy up all the small software companies so that he can control the known universe......

---

Not Roger Nichols .. but there are a few big companies out there that appear to be doing just this ..

Email delivery a little while ago.

AFAIK, it's not restricted knowledge or content, so i thought some people might benefit.


I would however add that i have NO problem with the use of iLok , which is an eminently sensible move...

perhaps the ONLY one in this entire situation.

Copy protection is a defacto requirement these days, i'd much rather have it on an iLok , that i can take with me , than stuck only on the G5 in my own studio.

Max

Quote:

---

Hello,

********************************************
THIS MESSAGE CONTAINS IMPORTANT INFORMATION
ABOUT PRODUCTS YOU HAVE PURCHASED. PLEASE
READ THIS MESSAGE IN ITS ENTIRETY.
********************************************

Elemental Audio has entered into a partnership with Roger Nichols Digital, Inc., the software company founded by seven (7) time Grammy winning engineer/producer Roger Nichols. All Elemental Audio products are now exclusively licensed and distributed by Roger Nichols Digital. This is an exciting transition for each of us at Elemental Audio. We believe that our software development abilities combined with the engineering and production expertise of Roger Nichols makes for a very promising relationship.

It was important to us that our customers be treated as fairly as possible in this change. We are writing this message to help you fully understand the implications and to let you know what you can expect in the future. We hope that this information will help to alleviate any concerns or misgivings you might have had about this transition.


I. AVAILABILITY OF ELEMENTAL AUDIO PRODUCTS
As of May 19, 2006, Elemental Audio products are no longer available for purchase. All Elemental Audio products will, however, be continued in some form under the Roger Nichols Digital name. Every Elemental Audio product may not be immediately available, but each will be available as a Roger Nichols Digital equivalent in the near future.

II. SUPPORT FOR CURRENT CUSTOMERS
We will continue to provide technical support and customer service to all of our current customers for the foreseeable future. You may still access the Support area of our web site at < http://www.elementalaudio.com/support/ > to view the Knowledgebase, contact us, access your downloads, submit email address changes, etc.

III. FUTURE UPDATES
We will provide at least one additional update to each commercial Elemental Audio product. This update will add Mac-Intel support and may incorporate bug fixes and other minor changes. Updates will be to the Elemental Audio products with which you are familiar; these updates will not require a move to the Roger Nichols Digital equivalents. There will be no charge associated with these updates. As usual, you will be notified by email when the updates become available.

IV. ROGER NICHOLS DIGITAL VERSIONS VS ELEMENTAL AUDIO VERSIONS
You should be aware of some of the primary differences between Elemental Audio branded products and the Roger Nichols Digital (RND) equivalents. First, RND products are to be available as boxed versions with printed documentation (in addition to being immediately downloadable). Second, RND products will be distributed by a network of independent dealers and distributers as well as being sold/distributed by RND itself. Third, RND products all utilize an iLok for copy protection.

V. PRICING
There will be a difference in the prices of Elemental Audio products and the equivalents distributed by Roger Nichols Digital. While Elemental Audio does not control the pricing of Roger Nichols Digital products, we have made an effort to ensure that the cost to you associated with this change is as small as possible as described in the FUTURE PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT section.

VI. COPY PROTECTION (iLok)
As you may be aware, there was a significant amount of pirating of Elemental Audio products. To reduce the incidence of piracy, Roger Nichols Digital branded products are protected by iLok; authorizations may be placed on an existing iLok - a separate iLok is not required. We have received many requests to add support for iLok copy protection over the years, so many customers should be pleased by this change. Note that Elemental Audio branded products will not be changed to use iLok for copy protection. When you receive your planned update(s) the standard Elemental Audio copy protection will still be in place.

VII. FUTURE PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT
Elemental Audio products will not be developed in the future beyond the planned updates mentioned previously. Thus, you will need to move to the Roger Nichols Digital equivalents to benefit from future product enhancements. We all wanted to make it easy for you to continue with the Roger Nichols Digital equivalent(s) of your Elemental Audio products, so you can benefit from future updates and changes. At some point in the not-too-distant future, you will be given the opportunity to move to the RND branded equivalent of your purchased Elemental Audio product(s). You will not be expected to pay the full price to continue on with the products you have purchased, however, there will be a nominal charge (e.g. $20 or so) associated with this move, sufficient to cover the cost of the boxed version/printed documentation, etc. We will send you more information about moving to the RND equivalents once all details have been finalized.

VIII. ELEMENTAL AUDIO'S FUTURE
Elemental Audio will continue to exist as a separate entity and will, for the foreseeable future, continue to develop audio related products. Like existing Elemental Audio products, future products developed by Elemental Audio will be distributed by Roger Nichols Digital.

IX. CUSTOMER SPECIAL
Please be advised that last month's Customer Appreciation special was conceived of and put in place based purely on customer request/feedback and prior to any relationship between Elemental Audio and Roger Nichols Digital. Though ill-timed, the special was not in response to any anticipated change. We regret any confusion the timing of these events may have caused.


It is a pleasure producing software for you and we appreciate the support you have given us. We trust that you will give us your support now as you have in the past - we'd certainly like to have you with us as we make this transition. We hope that, like us, you see this move as a step in a positive direction. Roger Nichols Digital (RND) products have much to offer. In addition to the software itself, they will have the benefit of the experience of an accomplished engineer and producer, which should result in improved usability for you. The products will include printed documentation as well as presets developed by Roger Nichols, both areas where Elemental Audio products could have stood to improve (based on feedback we have received). And these are just a few of the benefits to you of the Roger Nichols Digital and Elemental Audio relationship.

As always, please feel free to contact us if you have any questions or concerns. Note that our response may be delayed due to a high volume of email. If the volume of mail we receive in response to this news is very high, we may elect not to respond to messages that do not request or actually require a response. In any case, we do read every message we receive, so you can be assured that your thoughts will be considered whether you receive a personal response or not. If you do not receive a personal response but would like one, please feel free to write back to us to request one.

Thanks, again!

Very Sincerely,
The Elemental Audio Team

------------------------------------
Customer Service & Support
cs@elementalaudio.com

Elemental Audio Systems
http://www.elementalaudio.com
------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------
This message describes Elemental Audio's relationship with Roger Nichols Digital and the affects of this relationship on you. All of the statements in this message are true to Elemental Audio's best knowledge at the time of writing. However, some of the items discussed in this message could be affected by circumstances or parties outside of Elemental Audio's control.

---

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Max The Mac:

---

Email delivery a little while ago.

I would however add that i have NO problem with the use of iLok , which is an eminently sensible move...

perhaps the ONLY one in this entire situation.

Copy protection is a defacto requirement these days,

---

There is one MAJOR problem with this: iLok does not offer any copy protection whatsoever. I think it was Scott Realms from liquid DAW that used to email Waves each time they released a new plugin or a new version of their plugins. The very day it was commercially available, it was also available cracked on P2P networks.

Syncrosoft is a different story ...

Copy protection is indeed a good thing but it has to work. iLok doesn't and just punishes ligitimate paying customers.

iLok = bad.

UnderTow

ARGH! I just read Mr Nichols' article for this month. At least I read the bit about 64 bit. He could have actually checked what CakeWalk Sonar does. It supports both Windows 64 bit AND has a 64 bit floating point audio engine.

Also, 64 bit processors running a 32 bit OS are actually a touch faster due to the larger registries.

This guy is not an asset to SOS.

UnderTow

Quote Shaun Dark:

---

Quote Music Manic:

---

Quote:

---

With the gnarls track you are talking crap, how does releasing it on itunes defeat piracy? Your not making any sense man.

And the point I was making was that dance music producers such as myself signed to small labels are making sweet f**k all because of piracy.

And what are you on about with the samples? I don't understand the point you are trying to make there at all

---

Why am I talking crap?
Why do most people talk like they know it all when we're supposed to be knocking off eachother.

I'm saying however he did it he's made more sales than any track for a while and we all know that sales have dropped not just because of piracy but because of bad music.

There was a drum and bass track I was after for ages.I kept hearing it but no mention of what it was.Now how the hell am I supposed to buy it?
When I found out who it was by it was deleted,so the only way I could get it was how???

So how would you defeat piracy?

Also I've been into music for 20 year and have made little.
So what?

You keep blaming it on piracy.Why?

People in IT can't find jobs easily now,why?Oh it must be piracy.No it's saturated mate.

You think they couldn't stop piracy tomorrow if they wanted to?

You need to chill out.

P.S. You think somebody couldn't make a hit out of your or my track if they wanted to? What makes you or I so special?

---

To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy?
No,actually found it on vinyl
Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.
And how much would that cost to firms?
And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.
Quite simple if you think about it.
If two people or two thousand people do the same thing who would have the better profit margin plus more of a chance getting a job

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

Isn't it spelt metaphor?Don't you mean analogy(Your credibilty is sinking fast)?To answer your analogy,we don't employ anybody,and it's the company's responsibilty to protect themselves.
Thank you for making it so simple that I could grasp it

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?
No,just lateral thinking again but thought your brilliance would have grasped it.
Your link isn't up btw so that should answer your question.

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling
No,no mispelt words but you seem to understand everything I say.Admittedly English isn't my forte but neither is yours.
We are talking about music and it's and art.The most talented people understand things in their own language.
You feel that being articulate is proof of your intelligence.
Would you like me to teach you how to pronounce those Greek words properly that you most definitely get wrong when using them in English.Quite funny!
What have I learnt from you?Nothing.
Why do I waste my time?Like a bit of banter I suppose.
Round three

---

Re dongles and iLock.

When I purchase a product I accept full personal responsibility for it. In the case of serial number protected software, it is 100% my responsibility to keep the serial number in a safe place. I can write it down in more than one place if I want to and even if my computer gets stolen, I can always reinstall the software on a new computer by simply referring to the serial number I have safely stored; that’s the application of my personal responsibility. It also doesn’t restrict my freedom to use the software I went to the trouble of legally purchasing (yes, I know it’s a licence and I don’t actually ‘own’ it).

On the other hand, dongles, and iLock specifically, take away my personal responsibility and place it in the hands of the software seller. If my computer gets stolen (with the dongle hanging off the back) then I have to claim on my insurance and buy the software again…all fine and dandy… that is of course provided the software is still available. The company could of: gone out of business, no longer supports my software (cheers Apple), charges FOUR TIMES more than what I could legally insure my dongle ‘protected’ (hasn’t worked yet) software for…

Dongles not only remove my personal responsibility but they also place severe restrictions on how I can use what I’ve gone to the trouble to legally purchase.

Those are some of the reasons why I am uncomfortable with dongles and actively avoid purchasing software products that employ such restrictive copy protection – ‘copy protection’ ha! Such an oxymoronic phrase.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote cebenezer:

---

So, today I can get a new version of any of those with a worse user interface, a clumsy and non-transparent rights protection system for twice the price - and the upgrade cost will probably be equivalent to the price of the original EA plugins given the scale up.

---

It’s a good idea to read previous posts before adding to a thread.

As has already been said, $169 to $698 is just over FOUR TIMES the price, not twice.

It’s also obvious you didn’t bother to read the post directly above the one you made in the Elemental Review in the user reports section either.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Yes, I received that EA email last night too Max… horse, stable door and bolted immediately spring to mind. With a little forethought and pre-emptive PR work EA could so easily have avoided this attempt at damage limitation. Their vague statement about upgrade pricing (“(e.g. $20 or so)”) doesn’t inspire confidence; the price should have been fixed before they sent out the email. Not that the idea of upgrading appeals to me… I don’t think I can face inserting such stupidly named plug-ins in a track and having Roger Nichols name thrust in my face too.

Unfortunately, the customer/company trust relationship has been damaged; possibly fatally… look what happened to Gerald Ratner.

This bit from their email says it all: “However, some of the items discussed in this message could be affected by circumstances or parties outside of Elemental Audio's control.”

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

One more thing...

Quote:

---

We have received many requests to add support for iLok copy protection over the years, so many customers should be pleased by this change.

---

Yeah right…and I’m a hamster with a taste for space travel.


--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

This bit from their email says it all: “However, some of the items discussed in this message could be affected by circumstances or parties outside of Elemental Audio's control.”

---

And who's to blame for that, except the EA guys who sold control over their product in this manner? Because no kidding, that's exactly what it means when selling one's assets: you lose the ability to control the asset you've sold.

All of this strongly suggests that EA wrote good software but didn't know jack about how to run a software business. These two qualities obviously are entirely different skill-sets. The EA guys clearly didn't know how to properly set prices for their wares, and didn't know how to protect their IP (although I'm no fan of iLok, either). If EA actually knew how to run a successful business, they probably wouldn't have felt compelled to sell their assets to Roger Nichols.

But how ironic so many of you are whining about the price increase while admitting that EA software was clearly under-priced (I see comments like "I would've paid twice the price for the software", etc). Well, sure, I'd love it if ALL companies set their prices way too low (which absolutely kills profit margins), or better yet, just gave away their products (I love those "Free iPod" ads you see). But guess what? It's short-sided to want prices so low that the company can't stay in business, and guess what happens to support when they go under?

Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.

Like someone said, too many people operate with a sense of entitlement, thinking they deserve everything on the cheap without paying a fair share. Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.

So shut up and quit yer bitchin: you all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.

PS keep bashing Nichols and trying to drive away potential buyers, with your know-it-all sniping and juvenile rants, and before long even the level of transitional support being offered by EA and RND will no doubt evaporate, too. You guys just don't get it: Nichols seemingly is bailing EA out from going completely tits-up...

Chris

Well, the explanatory email they sent around (copied by Max) sheds a bit more light on this murky affair, but as Tim says - why didn't they explain this all a bit better AT THE SAME TIME AS making the announcement as opposed to 48 damaging hours later?

Anyway, I remain unconvinced by the following statements contained in it regarding the "benefits of the RND-EA relationship":

"Roger Nichols Digital (RND) products have much to offer."
Sounds good - tell me more...

"RND products will be distributed by a network of independent dealers and distributers..."
This is a Stoneage business model for most software today - why would anyone take this option if the product is available direct? If you do it right, surely it is far easier and more economical to sell and maintain software on-line, rather than adding an uneccessary layer of administration by expecting customers to go via a 3rd party?

"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?

"The products will include printed documentation..."
What is wrong with PDF versions (especially if it keeps overheads down)? Surely users can always print their own and stick it in a binder?

"In addition to the software itself, they will have the benefit of the experience of an accomplished engineer and producer, which should result in improved usability for you."
All due respect to Roger Nichols' skills as an engineer, but usability of EA plug-ins was fine - the clarity of the GUI was a major factor in why I bought them in the first place! Are you saying that now I need Roger Nichols to tell me how to adjust the settings on EQ software I've been using for over a year?

"...as well as presets developed by Roger Nichols"
Um... do I need presets? How will Roger Nichols know which EQ bands to adjust in my tracks without hearing them?

"And these are just a few of the benefits to you of the Roger Nichols Digital and Elemental Audio relationship."
Hmm... none apparent to me so far - am I missing something?

This story is pretty newsworthy and generating A LOT of interest, can someone from SOS editorial please interview RD for some 'horses mouth' comments and insights? I'd also be interested to know why he thinks "Bitchinizer" is a good name for a so called pro plugin.

PS
I just popped over to Roger's own forums, guess what? he's shut it down.
Slight possibilty that too many negative comments were being posted would be my guess.
.

--------------------
Web Site | Twitter | iTunes

Quote James Lehmann:

---

"In addition to the software itself, they will have the benefit of the experience of an accomplished engineer and producer, which should result in improved usability for you."
All due respect to Roger Nichols' skills as an engineer, but usability of EA plug-ins was fine - the clarity of the GUI was a major factor in why I bought them in the first place! Are you saying that now I need Roger Nichols to tell me how to adjust the settings on EQ software I've been using for over a year?

---

Maybe this is the sort of thing they mean by ‘improved usability’?



From his site at: http://www.rndigital.com/index.html

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote:

---

So shut up and quit yer bitchin:

---

Feefer, you have expressed your opinion; I have no idea why you believe you have the right to tell other people they aren’t allowed to express theirs!


--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Hi Feefer, don't agree with your post at all. You are talking about wonderful businesses versus stingy musicians - you are so wrong. If you are a professional musician you are also in business and people are always trying to knock our prices down aswell. How many lame excuses have musicians heard in an attempt to get us to reduce our rates? The problems software companies face, I also face.
I am not a school kid on my parents computer doing music for fun, this is how I earn my living and I am under the same business pressure as anyone else. I will tell you something else in this country - it is cheaper to hire a musician with all his equipment than it is just to hire the equipment from a hire firm, that's how far our prices have been driven down.
Iunderstand how these businesses feel because I am under the same pressure. Maybe you're one of these people that thinks music isn't real work whereas business is. I've certainly met plenty of those.

These days, it is very fashionable to hear "rude" stuff, Hip Hop music for instance... So the "BITCHINIZER" is going to appeal to some new "wannabe" cool + rude guys... That is were the industry is going ...

Then you get things like Mackie, named "BIG KNOB"! I bet soon there will be
a SOFTWARE version, so when you place your order, you'll be asked: "do you want a HARD one or a SOFT one ! LOL ... AND there will a BITCH taking your order on phone

Then, I predict, someone is going to come up with a NEW PLUGIN called the
BUT PLUG !!! This one will be OPTIMIZED and designed from the ground to improve your BOTTOM END Big time LOL

Anyway, what can you do ... have a dreenk or a spleeff and forget about it, life goes on ... there are more important thing to deal with in this world ...

In some interview, soon, you will read stories like: "when tracking my Misses vocal, I post process with the new Bitchinizer, it gives her so much attitude you know... LOL

Take care and take it EZEE guys... life can be very STIFF if you have a BIG KNOB

www.topfloormix.com

--------------------
-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/

I Guess You do not use Elemental audio stuff Eh?

Quote Feefer:

---

Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.

---

Where did you get that idea from I think 'most' customers are fully prepared to pay companies a reasonable 'profit'. It is those that use and create cracks who are completely oblivious to the concept of 'Fair Trade', they are ignorant. lazy and imho suck the life from the affluent and democratic society's they enjoy living in.

Quote Feefer:

---

Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.

---

'Parasitized'
is an interesting way of describing sincere customers who bought a Plugin for the price that was being charged for it - I guess you think that all customers must apply some kind of 'predictive' foresight into their consumerism - they must think 'hmmm.... this plugin is unreasonably cheap for how good it is let me offer to pay more, much more.

What an idiotic thing to say. I as a customer have no interest in 'speculating' whether a company may go out of business because they are selling their plugs too cheap, my role is to pay what I am asked.

You are 'blaming' the customers for the demise of EAU (that is funny)

Quote Feefer:

---

You all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.

---

You think that Roger Tickles has the has the right idea about the 'value' of these plugs do you, The true 'value' of the plugs and company are hanging by a very thin thread at the moment and that is in NO WAY down to legitimate, sincere, paying cusomers.

Quote Feefer:

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So shut up and quit yer bitchin

---

So you are telling us to all throw away our 'Bitchinizers' now are you, phew thanks for that, 'cos for a moment their I thought that Mr Roger Tickles had hired you as his Chief PR Guru.

There's an interesting question in all this which Tim touches on: what's the status of my (business) insurance policy? I have documentary evidence of having bought some software for say $160 and now to replace it, if my studio burns down, I would need to spend $600.

I don't think any general insurance policy would give me more than $160.

Feefer, stop trying to speak for all of us. One person said they would have been willing to pay twice as much for EA products. Everyone else liked the product at the price it was offered, and that's how markets work.

Having bought the product, to learn that it will not henceforth be supported (except at substantial cost) is not only insulting, it may also be illegal, at least in the UK.

I hope Nichols has paid substantially over the odds for the EA assets, and the original EA team have got a decent wedge in return for their efforts over the years. I hope Nichols has had to borrow the money to buy the business. I hope his future sales are zero, the banks call in his loans, he goes bankrupt, and he never darkens our doors again.

Sadly however we seem to live in a world where people don't get their just desserts!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Hi Steve, again I find myself agreeing with everything you said. Perhaps SOS could loose RN's column and replace it with something else. Perhaps there could be a guest ME every month. I for one have learnt so much on this forum from Neil Wight, Massive Mastering, James Perrett (and apologies to others whose names I haven't mentioed) so maybe MEs like them could do it.

Exhibit A
George Massenburg - famous recording engineer turned product designer, designs and builds his own legendary series of hardware and software from the ground up

Exhibit B
Roger Nichols - famous recording engineer turned product designer, buys up someone else's product designs, dumbs it down, triples the price and rebadges it under his own name

There's something not quite right about this.

Quote Feefer:

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All of this strongly suggests that EA wrote good software but didn't know jack about how to run a software business. These two qualities obviously are entirely different skill-sets.

---

This is pure assumption on your part. Obviously someone thought it was worth buying them so it can't be all bad.

Quote:

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The EA guys clearly didn't know how to properly set prices for their wares, and didn't know how to protect their IP (although I'm no fan of iLok, either).

---

Nor does Roger Nichols or any company that uses iLok: iLok offers little or no protection.

Quote:

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If EA actually knew how to run a successful business, they probably wouldn't have felt compelled to sell their assets to Roger Nichols.

---

Again pure assumption on your part. Maybe Roger Nichols offered them alot of money and they got $ signs in their eyes ...

Quote:

---

But how ironic so many of you are whining about the price increase while admitting that EA software was clearly under-priced (I see comments like "I would've paid twice the price for the software", etc).

---

There were a few comments like that but there were also many comments saying that they wouldn't pay for the new price.

Don't get fooled by companies like Waves that overcharge for their products. Those are not valid prices either.

Anyway, what makes you think that you know what the right price for a product is? Voxengo lowered their allready very reasonable prices recently ...

Quote:

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It's short-sided to want prices so low that the company can't stay in business, and guess what happens to support when they go under?

---

Again assumption on your part. Do you have access to EA's financial details? If not, whence comes the arrogance of bitching to everyone when having no idea what you are talking about? (Hey, maybe you can write articles with Mr Nichols).

Quote:

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Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.

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This whole thread is about legitimate customers of Elemental Audio. I'm sure users of cracked software couldn't care less who owns the company and what the price of the products are. Although you are right about users of warez, your comment is irrelevant here.

Quote:

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Like someone said, too many people operate with a sense of entitlement, thinking they deserve everything on the cheap without paying a fair share. Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.

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Are you insane? People pay exactly the asking price for a product and you bitch at them? Talking about entitlement, who died and made you king?

Quote:

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So shut up and quit yer bitchin: you all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.

---

Again pure assumption on your part. Pray tell, what makes you an expert on the value of EA plugins?

Quote:

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PS keep bashing Nichols and trying to drive away potential buyers, with your know-it-all sniping and juvenile rants, and before long even the level of transitional support being offered by EA and RND will no doubt evaporate, too.

---

So? However regretfull this would be for EA customers, in the bigger picture and on the long term, this could be a good thing because it sends a message to companies that they can't just grossly overcharge for plugins and treat their legitimate customers like this. Well unless you are Waves ...

Quote:

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You guys just don't get it: Nichols seemingly is bailing EA out from going completely tits-up...

Chris

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Maybe you don't get it. Maybe Nichols is just overcharging massively. You have no idea what the financial situation of EA is/was.

It would be fine if you would have written your post as a clear speculation and not gone out to insult legitimate customers but as it stands, your post is foolish and arrogant to say the least.

UnderTow

It's so sad that just as one gets belief and confidence in a market rife with competitive plugins, another company sells out to survive. This just undermines the consumers' buying confidence and does no good for the longevity of the software side of the industry. Be it bonafide due to losses, or a licenced market move, it all rocks the fragile confidence boat.

I wonder if existing, and future, manufacturers will provide a warranty against exactly this kind of situation?

Sadly, this just adds weight to the piracy camp's arguments, and for me, that is as sad as it can get.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote noiseconjecture:

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Hi Steve, again I find myself agreeing with everything you said. Perhaps SOS could loose RN's column and replace it with something else. Perhaps there could be a guest ME every month. I for one have learnt so much on this forum from Neil Wight, Massive Mastering, James Perrett (and apologies to others whose names I haven't mentioed) so maybe MEs like them could do it.

---

yes,yes,yes tickles has lost alot of friends round here and writing for sos is like lee bowyer having a colum in sportsmanship weekly.

Seems RND's forum has been taken offline:-

http://www.ioforums.net/forums/view_topic.php?id=290&forum_id=22

--------------------
http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community

Am I seeing things? I could have sworn that when I looked at Roger Nichols Digital website yesterday the plug-ins were $349 each - when I checked just now they are $249 each!

There's something very odd going on here, I think we should be told!

No James, you aren’t seeing things, they most certainly were $349 yesterday.

So instead of them being four times the price they are now only three times… whoopee.



--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Edited by Tim Rainey (22/05/06 01:37 PM)

Definately lowered the prices.

See the bitchin obviously works...

(runs for cover)

C

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Dual 2Ghz G5 2.5GB RAM, Logic Pro 7.2, Logic Control, MOTU 828mkII Drumkit from Hell C&V and Superior, EW QLSO Gold, Zebra and Cameleon, Melodyne Uno, Atmosphere, Max/MSP

To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.

The fact that you prefer to have a hard copy is not relevent to the point I'm making. Also Sugababes tracks are excellent when compared to some of the tripe that was around in the early 90s and late 80s.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy?
No,actually found it on vinyl

If you found it on vinyl then what point were you originally trying to make with that comment??

Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.
And how much would that cost to firms?

How should I know that's a stupid question. It's plainly obvious that some measures have to be taken because my generation are now in the habit of stealing intellectual properties. This is not a habit that will be easily broken.

And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.
Quite simple if you think about it.
If two people or two thousand people do the same thing who would have the better profit margin plus more of a chance getting a job

There have always been alot of people trying to make their way in music, the market has always been saturated. Thats not the problem.

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

Isn't it spelt metaphor?Don't you mean analogy(Your credibilty is sinking fast)?To answer your analogy,we don't employ anybody,and it's the company's responsibilty to protect themselves.
Thank you for making it so simple that I could grasp it

Very clever well done. I don't think my misspellings are as bad as your illegible sentence structures.

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?
No,just lateral thinking again but thought your brilliance would have grasped it.
Your link isn't up btw so that should answer your question.

What link? Here's a link to my latest effort you smug c**t

http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling
No,no mispelt words but you seem to understand everything I say.Admittedly English isn't my forte but neither is yours.
We are talking about music and it's and art.The most talented people understand things in their own language.
You feel that being articulate is proof of your intelligence.
Would you like me to teach you how to pronounce those Greek words properly that you most definitely get wrong when using them in English.Quite funny!
What have I learnt from you?Nothing.
Why do I waste my time?Like a bit of banter I suppose.
Round three

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---

From your first post you started on a very negative note and I can't stand smart asses, especially if they're not actually smart

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Quote Shaun Dark:

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http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

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Nice track! Although I don't think my Thinkpad speakers are doing it justice.

Couldn't Roger Nichols have done us all a favour by buying Waves instead!

y

Quote Squarepeg:

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Quote Shaun Dark:

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http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

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Nice track! Although I don't think my Thinkpad speakers are doing it justice.

---

Cheers man

It does rather enjoy being played on a fat system

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Edited by Shaun Dark (22/05/06 03:31 PM)

Do you just choose to only read and see what you want?

1. Fact: Elemental Audio did not sell their products or their company:
"Elemental Audio has entered into a partnership with Roger Nichols Digital, Inc.,"
"Elemental Audio will continue to exist as a separate entity"
"Elemental Audio will ... continue to develop audio related products"

2. It is interesting to see posts that on one hand talk about how great the company is, but then see those that devolve into saying the company was poorly run and went out of business. Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.' I've seen posts speculating that EA was offered $50k or some similar amount for all of their products - that is laughable at best.

3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

4. Fact: Some people do prefer iLoks. The fact that you choose to see this as a lie shows that you are out of touch with some of Elemental Audio's customer base, *not* that Elemental Audio is lying. An iLok is not only a protection device, it also provides an easy way to move authorizations around. Some of us actually need and desire this. Your lack of need or desire does not make the needs of others a figment of Elemental Audio's imagination.

5. Fact: Many people actually like printed documentation and boxed software, myself included. Real printed documentation - not the kind I have to print out and put in a binder myself.

6. Fact: Elemental Audio has stated that they will continue to provide support to customers for the foreseeable future. Despite this you all keep grumbling over the fact that you will no longer receive support - that you have been abandoned.

7. The pictures taken from Roger Nichols web site are obviously mock-ups. Note the fact that it is on quad-ruled graph paper - do you really think anyone would make a plug-in GUI with a background of quad-ruled graph paper? But, it's easier to speculate and condemn than to actually *ask* and find out the true answer - that would put an end to all the fun.

8. Any company has a right to shut down their forum if they choose. If I was Roger Nichols I would have shut it down too. Why in the world should a company let people come to their forum and trash it and leave it there? Taking it down is smart - not cowardice.

9. Fact: If you actually want an answer to some of your questions you have a better chance of getting one by actually asking those involved. But then again, we all don't want real answers do we?

10. Fact: A lot of people do want presets. If you can't imagine that, than I guess you are not in touch with that group of people. Look at the vast numbers of presets in many plug-ins. Do you think companies put them in for kicks or because that is what users want?

11. Facts: A lot of people do still buy software in actual stores. A lot of people actually like to receive something concrete with their purchase (i.e. a box, a disk). A lot of people like to purchase items from one dealer with whom they have a relationship. If that is not you - fine. That doesn't mean these other people do not exist or should be ignored.

These are facts. You can choose to believe them or not. That doesn't change the reality. It is easy to think everything and everyone is as it seems on the Internet. The truth is, what is said on the SOS, OSX Audio, KVR, etc. forums is not indicative of what every person thinks or feels or needs.

This is all so interesting. Elemental Audio was a great company, who treated their users great in many ways. That has been said so many times on many forums. But as soon as they enter a partnership where you cannot see the immediate value to yourself you bad mouth them, wish them ill, call them liars, etc. Talk about turncoats. What happened to the benefit of the doubt?

You all act as though EA killed your mother. How are you hurt by this ... really? You will still receive support. You will still receive the next version for free. You will be able to move to the Roger Nichols versions for a minimal price. The prices are higher, but so what? You don't have to buy your products again, so the price jump doesn't really affect you.

You talk about what this whole fiasco should teach companies. Maybe one of the things it will teach companies is that it doesn't matter how good you treat your customers they will shoot you down as soon as you do something that is not immediately of value to them.

How has Elemental Audio shafted us in the past? Did they make us pay for updates to move to new operating systems just to keep our products working? Nope. Did they charge for any updates at all? Nope - not even when they included new features. Did they ignore support requests or take weeks to respond? Nope. Did they leave long standing bugs in their software, taking forever to fix them? Nope.

And yet you string them up for the fire.

Shame on you.

Quote Shaun Dark:

---

To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.

The fact that you prefer to have a hard copy is not relevent to the point I'm making. Also Sugababes tracks are excellent when compared to some of the tripe that was around in the early 90s and late 80s.

And what are you on about not being able to find a Drum and Bass track you liked? haha What has that got to do with the argument?? I'm going to presume you mean that you couldn't buy it legally so you got a pirate copy?
No,actually found it on vinyl

If you found it on vinyl then what point were you originally trying to make with that comment??

Well whilst thats technically not OK I understand where you are comming from and have to admit that I'd probably do the same.

How would I defeat piracy? I've already suggested earlier in this thread that harsher laws should be introduced to narrow down the benifit to risk ratio.
And how much would that cost to firms?

How should I know that's a stupid question. It's plainly obvious that some measures have to be taken because my generation are now in the habit of stealing intellectual properties. This is not a habit that will be easily broken.

And IT? WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?? The main problem with the music industry is not saturation it's people reaping the benifits of intellectual property that they are not paying for.
Quite simple if you think about it.
If two people or two thousand people do the same thing who would have the better profit margin plus more of a chance getting a job

There have always been alot of people trying to make their way in music, the market has always been saturated. Thats not the problem.

I'll put in a metaphore to make it simple for you; The problem is not having too many people working in IT, the problem is companies employing IT people and then not paying them. You understand?

Isn't it spelt metaphor?Don't you mean analogy(Your credibilty is sinking fast)?To answer your analogy,we don't employ anybody,and it's the company's responsibilty to protect themselves.
Thank you for making it so simple that I could grasp it

Very clever well done. I don't think my misspellings are as bad as your illegible sentence structures.

And what are you on about people making hits out of our tracks?? Is that supposed to be a stab at my production skills or something?
No,just lateral thinking again but thought your brilliance would have grasped it.
Your link isn't up btw so that should answer your question.

What link? Here's a link to my latest effort you smug c**t

http://www.emasters.co.uk/shaundark/Anarchist.mp3

I'm going to presume your either foreign or completely dyslexic because your grasp of the English language is appalling
No,no mispelt words but you seem to understand everything I say.Admittedly English isn't my forte but neither is yours.
We are talking about music and it's and art.The most talented people understand things in their own language.
You feel that being articulate is proof of your intelligence.
Would you like me to teach you how to pronounce those Greek words properly that you most definitely get wrong when using them in English.Quite funny!
What have I learnt from you?Nothing.
Why do I waste my time?Like a bit of banter I suppose.
Round three

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---

From your first post you started on a very negative note and I can't stand smart asses, especially if they're not actually smart

---

Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me

Quote Music Manic:

---

Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me

---

Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Quote Music Manic:

---

To say that the sales figures of contemporary music have dropped because there is too much bad music around is not true. Really.So why have I not bought much music in past 3 years seeing I have a collection of 10 to 20,000 records/cds.Can't see me buying sugababes.
I also don't like downloads.I like 16bit hardcopies.

---

I don't really want to join in with the argument here (well, not until you kiss and make up anyway) but I am not sure I reaaly agree with that.

Most mainstream music has never been that great (with many exceptions).

Right now I think there is more great music around than I can ever remember and I buy more CDs than I did (records) 20 years ago.

However, it is not easy to find it. If I had to make do with the music I come into contact with through the mainstream media and record shops I would buy very few. I buy less than 5% of my CDs over the counter (although HMV made a big improvement when they took away all the music I really don't like and put it in it's own section called 'Urban' )

My personal take on this is that a big chunk of the lost sales reproted by the majors is down to the content they are turning out as much as piracy (though they would suggest otherwise).

I don't think this is the case in Dance. Leaving aside the crap that passes as dance in the mainstream the quality of output from the importnat dance lables is very high.

I really don't like copied music but this does not stop people I know from handing me copied CDs on a very regularly basis which I politely ask them not to do, though that is a tricky one.

The one exception is material that has been deleted. Much great dance material comes out on very small runs with no likelyhood of a reprint. I have copied such CDs for friends on (a few) occasions though if it is something I want I will track it down from the web or specialist shops.

I have no interest in downloads and will not until they are lossless CD quality.

Quote LittleM:

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3. A price of $249 is not 3 times the price of Firium, Eqium, or Neodynium. Fact: $249 is not even double the price of Firium or Eqium.

---

The price of the Firium/Eqium bundle was a total of $169. I checked that figure with EA before updating my Firium Eqium review and posting it on this forum in the user reports section on 1/03/06.

Yesterday, the price on the RND site was $349 FOR EACH Plug-in. There was no mention of a reduction for bundles.

Therefore it follows that 349 x 2 = $698 That is OVER 400%.

I don’t have the time or inclination to dissect your other so called ‘facts’.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Little M, you appear to be brand new to this forum, your only two posts to date being above. Your profile says nothing about you or where you are save that you joined us on "01/01/70 01:00 AM", which I assume to mean some time this afternoon.

You appear to have an agenda to argue the EA/Roger Nichols corner. OK, debate is healthy and you are welcome to disagree.

But I think you owe it to all of us to explain who you are and what your agenda is. Otherwise I will probably not be alone in concluding you are just trolling for the sake of it. And that will just devalue any good points you might be making here.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote LittleM:

---

These are facts...

---

With 1 post to your name you obviously registered under a pseudonym specifically to argue on this topic, and people will draw their own conclusions from that.

Anyway, you clearly like make a point by spouting what you call 'facts' and yet most of those you choose start with the line "Some people..." or "Most people..." or "A lot of people..." It looks impressive, but as any fule kno blanket assertions like this are meaningless unless backed up by some data.

Of your 'facts' that don't start in the unhelpful manner above I'm sure many of us would be interested in your reference for this one:
Fact: Elemental Audio was/is a profitable company and was not in need of any 'bailing out.'
Again, it's meaningless without qualification - like, who are you and where are the figures?

I don't wholly disagree with some of your text and I agree that some of the reaction has been a bit over-emotional, but you have the benefit of joining this discussion AFTER two critical things have happened and AFTER the rest of us first started discussing this issue:
1) Yesterday Elemental Audio published a generic email explaining some (not all) of the information we lacked
2) The new price has dropped by $100 since yesterday!

If we'd had these two pieces of information, then this thread would have been accordingly a bit different. So yes - the situation looks a bit better than it did on Saturday, but even so, many of us (investors don't forget) are angry and disturbed by the manner in which this transition was handled, and I suspect it is this 'fact' that has stirred up the hornets' nest more than any other.

Quote Shaun Dark:

---

Quote Music Manic:

---

Ha there he is.
My original post was in your face,but I wasn't speaking through myself I was talking from a general point of view and giving you an insight into what you are up against and why your strict measures won't work.

You have taken it personally and are quite rude and racist.

I can't express myself properly through words,but you do seem to understand everything I say.

I have given you respect and have checked the LINK on your PROFILE.

I am trying to understanding your point of view but you alienate me instead of proving your point.
I will give it to you as good as you do.

Piracy doesn't root itself in theft.There are economic implications too.

I do like that you say what's on your mind as nasty as it is.

I take it you don't like me

---

Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married

---

Haha,nice one.
I apologise if I came across as rude but this is the way that people are treated in music world,and I answer through other peoples views to keep it real.
Engineers can be the most viscious tongued people you can meet,and A&R can make you want to slit your wrists,but it goes with the territory.

When I talk about you or I being special,I'm not speaking from my point of view but these senseless people who know nothing about music and think our talents can be pushed to one side with no respect.

I deeply respect you having out with me and being honest.

You'll have to get down on one knee if you want me to say yes.

Btw is c**t an anagram of cute?

Catch you later buddy and I'll try and make myself clearer next time.
I can be a PITA sometime but intentions are genuine and honourable.Ask Hugh!

Quote Tim Rainey:

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Maybe this is the sort of thing they mean by ‘improved usability’?



From his site at: http://www.rndigital.com/index.html

---

Is it just my vivid imagination, or has it occurred to anyone else that those bizarre 'graph-paper' Bitchin-izer plugin interfaces might be a hoax or even someone hacking into the Roger Nichols web site.

Try as I might, I simply find it hard to believe that any professional audio engineer could put his name to such 'my first GUI' designs. But then of course I could be totally wrong, and find that everyone else finds them a breath of fresh air.

So, is it me, or is that graphic interface a joke?


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote Music Manic:

---

Your original post was rude and your subsequent posts were very rude. You initiated personal attacks on me to try and get your point accross, of course I've taken it personally.

Seeing as I'm not native to this country; it's highly unlikely that my calling you foreign was a racist attack.

The link on my profile is to the website for which I work. It has nothing to do with music.

I think my points have been very simple and concise, I havn't felt the need to elaborate on them as they are so simple.

Piracy is theft end of story. If you benifit from someone elses artistic works without their permission or without paying for it then you are a thief.

No, I don't like you, I love you, lets get married

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Haha,nice one.
I apologise if I came across as rude but this is the way that people are treated in music world,and I answer through other peoples views to keep it real.
Engineers can be the most viscious tongued people you can meet,and A&R can make you want to slit your wrists,but it goes with the territory.

When I talk about you or I being special,I'm not speaking from my point of view but these senseless people who know nothing about music and think our talents can be pushed to one side with no respect.

I deeply respect you having out with me and being honest.

You'll have to get down on one knee if you want me to say yes.

Btw is c**t an anagram of cute?

Catch you later buddy and I'll try and make myself clearer next time.
I can be a PITA sometime but intentions are genuine and honourable.Ask Hugh!

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Fair enough mate we'll leave it there

Good fight

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http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Do you think LittleM is Mr. Nichols himself? The moniker LittleM would reflect his interest in aliens and the writing style is similar to the style in the current SOS.

Quote Noiseflaw:

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I Guess You do not use Elemental audio stuff Eh?

Quote Feefer:

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Bottom line is no one's in business only to trade money, but to make a profit. Sadly, most consumers don't think companies deserve to earn even a reasonable profit margin, and will choose to crack software.

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Where did you get that idea from I think 'most' customers are fully prepared to pay companies a reasonable 'profit'. It is those that use and create cracks who are completely oblivious to the concept of 'Fair Trade', they are ignorant. lazy and imho suck the life from the affluent and democratic society's they enjoy living in.

Quote Feefer:

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Then they wonder what happened when the company they parasitized off goes out of business, or is forced to sell assets to those who DO understand how to achieve profitability and protect assets.

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'Parasitized'
is an interesting way of describing sincere customers who bought a Plugin for the price that was being charged for it - I guess you think that all customers must apply some kind of 'predictive' foresight into their consumerism - they must think 'hmmm.... this plugin is unreasonably cheap for how good it is let me offer to pay more, much more.

What an idiotic thing to say. I as a customer have no interest in 'speculating' whether a company may go out of business because they are selling their plugs too cheap, my role is to pay what I am asked.

You are 'blaming' the customers for the demise of EAU (that is funny)

Quote Feefer:

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You all got a cheap ride for awhile, and clearly got the wrong idea about the value of these plug-ins. Apparently the little pricing experiment didn't work, and if you want the benefits offered by the software in the future, it's time to pay the fiddler.

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You think that Roger Tickles has the has the right idea about the 'value' of these plugs do you, The true 'value' of the plugs and company are hanging by a very thin thread at the moment and that is in NO WAY down to legitimate, sincere, paying cusomers.

Quote Feefer:

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So shut up and quit yer bitchin

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So you are telling us to all throw away our 'Bitchinizers' now are you, phew thanks for that, 'cos for a moment their I thought that Mr Roger Tickles had hired you as his Chief PR Guru.

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Sorry, no time to respond on a point-by-point basis, but please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't blame the customers: it should be clear I'm placing blame on incompetent business practices of EA.

Perhaps it was a bit too confusing for you, since I addressed legit customers and those who used cracked copies in the same post. You apparently missed the distinction I made by using the terms "consumer" vs "customer". Someone who uses a cracked copy IS a consumer, but shouldn't be considered as a "customer", since they didn't pay for it.

Quibble all you want, but the bottom line is this: EA relinquished control of some of their assets to someone else. Hopefully the entire entity doesn't go under, due to all of the public lynching/bashing, as then prior purchasers will have NO future support (including porting to Intel, or the next major OS update after to OS X 10.5, etc).

Then those of you who bought insurance can try filing a claim with your insurance company, and good luck trying to get payment because the title is no longer supported because you helped kill the enterprise. Friggin' geniuses.

Chris

Quote Martin Walker:

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Try as I might, I simply find it hard to believe that any professional audio engineer could put his name to such 'my first GUI' designs. So, is it me, or is that graphic interface a joke?

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What definitely isn't a joke is Roger Nichols' choice of logo for Dynam-izer (used to be Neodynium) that features an aircraft dropping bombs!

Does he really think that's a clever marketing idea in this (or any other) age of ceaseless global wars, and WTF does images of terrifying military hardware have to do with professional audio products?

Quote James Lehmann:

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"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?

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jeezus, did you forget about the little physical object known as a dongle? Oh, yeah....

Chris

Quote UnderTow:

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Again assumption on your part. Do you have access to EA's financial details? If not, whence comes the arrogance of bitching to everyone when having no idea what you are talking about? (Hey, maybe you can write articles with Mr Nichols).

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Your rant (which I excerpted) makes my point entirely: all of you forum clowns have NO idea what's going on behind the scenes, and have no business ranting and raving based on YOUR assumptions, since it's all based on assumptions.

Stop to think a moment of alternatives instead of jumping to major conclusions.... Unless you're EA or RN, then you don't know the details as to why this occurred. So quit assuming the 'evil nefarious' motives, or at least admit them as being assumptions. The whining comes off as downright pathetic, the words of short-sided whiners...

Chris

Quote Feefer:

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Quote James Lehmann:

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"RND products are to be available as boxed versions..."
Can you explain to me why it is necessary to sell a piece of software in a cardboard box these days?

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jeezus, did you forget about the little physical object known as a dongle? Oh, yeah....

Chris

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Dongles are the work of the Devil - allowing them to breed safely in cardboard boxes is a crime in itself.

No, "my first GUI" has been up there for weeks or months. If it's a joke, it's a lousy one and shows a total lack of professionalism in terms of the kind of website a proper business should be running (quite apart from what conclusions half the human race might draw from the name of the product).

Chris/Feefer: unless you know any inside facts, which I doubt, I can assure you I am wholly within my professional comfort zone in writing what follows.

Partly out of professional interest in my former life (liquidating bankrupt businesses), I've spent a few hours today researching this and checking out reactions in other forums. I would say the overwhelming body of opinion (99%) is hostile with - at the very least - a sizeable proportion of those people resolving to have nothing to do with the EA products, or indeed any Nichols products, ever again. Someone mentioned the Gerald Ratner precedent earlier, and this looks like another textbook study of how to ruin a business (or possibly two businesses) overnight through hubris.

If this is a "partnership" between EA and Nichols, why is the EA website reduced to 2 pages - one a tombstone linking to Nichols and one a legacy support relic? There's not even a "who are we" page any more. If that's not a sell-out or takeover I don't know what is.

I don't blame the EA guys if they took the money and ran. If they gave the business away for nothing (other than in greatly distressed circumstances) then they really are dumb.

Nichols' handling of the whole episode simply proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that as a public relations director of a corporate entity, he's - er - probably a good sound engineer. Whether he bought it or was given it, his handling of the matter has probably devalued it to almost zero in 48 hours flat.

He can't be unaware of the furore (he's taken down his own forums); he seems to have knocked $100 off the price overnight in a kneejerk reaction quite clearly unrelated to any form of business strategy that I ever studied (including one or two Harvard Business School courses). Maybe he's busy at AES in Paris?

When in a hole stop digging. He needs to make a statement, and try to reassure his existing (and hoped-for future) user base. That might even include using words like "sorry" and "cock-up". It's his only hope at this stage. Trying to brazen it out, or defend it as a good thing, in the face of a unanimously hostile reaction from customers will just add insult to injury. As will continued silence.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (22/05/06 06:40 PM)

Quote James Lehmann:

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What definitely isn't a joke is Roger Nichols' choice of logo for Dynam-izer (used to be Neodynium) that features an aircraft dropping bombs!

Does he really think that's a clever marketing idea in this (or any other) age of ceaseless global wars, and WTF does images of terrifying military hardware have to do with professional audio products?

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So crazy.
Looks like a cheap game software.

I'm ready to throw my InspectorXL to trash bin.

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