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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED
      #310176 - 12/06/06 10:31 AM
MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED
GadIdeas, an Oxfordshire-based research company, announces the development of new signal processing techniques set to revolutionise our understanding of sensory perception.
GSP is a breakthrough patent pending technology that can, for the first time, accurately discriminate the frequency and phase of the sinusoidal components of any given signal. Our research indicates that this is exactly how the human ear interprets sound; something we've long struggled to understand.
GSP is set to replace the Fast Fourier Transform, a technique that is currently used in all areas of signal processing, but which has known limitations.
Martin Simpson BEng., CTO of GadIdeas (www.gadideas.com), was drawn to the development of GSP after puzzling for many years over the final hurdle of aural perception 'How does the ear really work?'. So much published research seems to stop short of the explanation of the ear’s remarkable ability to distinguish sounds with speed and clarity. Applying his background of medical electronics, a degree in electrical and electronic engineering, and a career in audio software development and audio engineering, he hit on an idea which gave him a Eureka moment that started his research. Turning the idea into a tangible signal processing system he demonstrated that his idea could be the start of something big, and what is exciting is that with help he has produced an analytical tool with applications far beyond those of human aural perception. “It is so fast and so efficient that it could be the system that has evolved in nature” is his outrageous claim.
Jon Stuart, CEO of Manic Media Productions (MMP, www.manic.co.uk), is another member of the GadIdeas team. Applying MMP's background of 3D visualisation in games, CAD and 3D mapping, he has used the underlying technology to develop a stunning real time, 3D coloured visualisation, plotting a scrolling 3D landscape of amplitude and frequency against time. This software tool is called Stona (c). Anything that is being listened to on a computer is analysed. This allows anyone to “see” for the first time sounds as they are being heard, in the same way the brain does, to resolutions not seen before, even down to the individual sine waves in any signal. The user can fly around this amazing 3D landscape, zooming in to any areas of interest.
Certainly, any one of the privileged few who have so far seen the visual representations of the system has been astonished by the clarity and speed of the resolution of all forms of sound input and of the versatility of the visual presentation. From music to speech, to animal sounds (dolphins are interesting!), heart beats, signals from space, and earthquakes. The list is endless, and the results fascinating.


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Mike Senior
SOS Mix Specialist


Joined: 08/08/03
Posts: 1393
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #310180 - 12/06/06 10:43 AM
Thanks heavens! My ear mysteries had got themselves into a dreadful tangle.

[This just sounds like phase vocoding, which has been around for years, but I'm sure there must be something new and clever about GSP...]

--------------------
Recording Secrets for the Small Studio
A complete recording method based around the techniques of the world's most famous producers.


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311181 - 14/06/06 02:28 PM
phase vocoding relies on FFT, GSP replaces this and does not need to window the signal working rather on a sample by sample basis. Phase vocoding also takes quite a long time whereas this technique works in real time


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311206 - 14/06/06 03:34 PM

Where did you quote this from?

UnderTow


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TTN



Joined: 14/11/04
Posts: 1087
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: UnderTow]
      #311209 - 14/06/06 03:36 PM
Quote UnderTow:


Where did you quote this from?

UnderTow




http://www.gadideas.com/ ?


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: TTN]
      #311212 - 14/06/06 03:40 PM
quote my dear fellow? I just know!


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311215 - 14/06/06 03:44 PM
I do believe that the competetive analysis on the manic site answers this question


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: TTN]
      #311217 - 14/06/06 03:44 PM
Quote TimmyTooNice:



http://www.gadideas.com/ ?




Hah! I read that I as an L and couldn't find anything with google.

UnderTow


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311229 - 14/06/06 04:03 PM
Well ok, i thought it was there. I know the guy that invented this new transfom, it wont be on google because its a new transform....Not too sure how much more info I can give you though but if you have a question feel free to ask


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311244 - 14/06/06 04:37 PM
Get ready to be amazed!!!

This FANTASTIC new technology uses words like 'Fantastic' and 'New Technology!'

WOW!!!

The secret of this new technology is so secret that even we do not understand it.

Use words like wavelets and transforms infront of your friends!

Be the life and soul of the party with phrases like 'Competitive Analysis,' 'The Real Solution' and even 'Fourier Transforms.'

FEAR NO MAN!!!

I shall make you a master of the Audio Realtime Simpson Effect (A.R.S.E.).

BATTER MAIM SMASH KILL DISEMBOWEL CRUSH (only in self defence) ALL THOSE WHO USE FOURIER TRANSFORMS

(By official appointment to Arby Studios)

Protect your loved ones - NOW - with this REVOLUTIONARY TECHNOLOGY!

Read more phrases like that NOW right here

http://www.manic.co.uk/Competition/Competitve%20Analysis_files/frame.htm

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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Sonicus



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 245
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311273 - 14/06/06 06:03 PM
Quote Nailbunny:

MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED
GadIdeas, an Oxfordshire-based research company, announces the development of new signal processing techniques set to revolutionise our understanding of sensory perception.
GSP is a breakthrough patent pending technology that can, for the first time, accurately discriminate the frequency and phase of the sinusoidal components of any given signal. Our research indicates that this is exactly how the human ear interprets sound; something we've long struggled to understand.
GSP is set to replace the Fast Fourier Transform, a technique that is currently used in all areas of signal processing, but which has known limitations.
Martin Simpson BEng., CTO of GadIdeas (www.gadideas.com), was drawn to the development of GSP after puzzling for many years over the final hurdle of aural perception 'How does the ear really work?'. So much published research seems to stop short of the explanation of the ear’s remarkable ability to distinguish sounds with speed and clarity. Applying his background of medical electronics, a degree in electrical and electronic engineering, and a career in audio software development and audio engineering, he hit on an idea which gave him a Eureka moment that started his research. Turning the idea into a tangible signal processing system he demonstrated that his idea could be the start of something big, and what is exciting is that with help he has produced an analytical tool with applications far beyond those of human aural perception. “It is so fast and so efficient that it could be the system that has evolved in nature” is his outrageous claim.
Jon Stuart, CEO of Manic Media Productions (MMP, www.manic.co.uk), is another member of the GadIdeas team. Applying MMP's background of 3D visualisation in games, CAD and 3D mapping, he has used the underlying technology to develop a stunning real time, 3D coloured visualisation, plotting a scrolling 3D landscape of amplitude and frequency against time. This software tool is called Stona (c). Anything that is being listened to on a computer is analysed. This allows anyone to “see” for the first time sounds as they are being heard, in the same way the brain does, to resolutions not seen before, even down to the individual sine waves in any signal. The user can fly around this amazing 3D landscape, zooming in to any areas of interest.
Certainly, any one of the privileged few who have so far seen the visual representations of the system has been astonished by the clarity and speed of the resolution of all forms of sound input and of the versatility of the visual presentation. From music to speech, to animal sounds (dolphins are interesting!), heart beats, signals from space, and earthquakes. The list is endless, and the results fascinating.




Er.......in english please.


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311306 - 14/06/06 06:56 PM
If it's a sales pitch, it's incomprehensible, garbled, illiterate, pseudo-scientific bullsh1t.

On the unlikely assumption that there is something new and worth announcing here, I suggest they hire at least one person with a GCSE in English to tell the world.

However, when it's rendered into plain English it may not look more impressive than just another effects box which you may or may not like?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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adrian_k



Joined: 30/01/03
Posts: 1743
Loc: Gloucestershire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: The Byre]
      #311317 - 14/06/06 07:33 PM
Quote The Byre:

Get ready to be amazed!!!

This FANTASTIC new technology uses words like 'Fantastic' and 'New Technology!'

WOW!!!

The secret of this new technology is so secret that even we do not understand it.

Use words like wavelets and transforms infront of your friends!

Be the life and soul of the party with phrases like 'Competitive Analysis,' 'The Real Solution' and even 'Fourier Transforms.'

FEAR NO MAN!!!

I shall make you a master of the Audio Realtime Simpson Effect (A.R.S.E.).

BATTER MAIM SMASH KILL DISEMBOWEL CRUSH (only in self defence) ALL THOSE WHO USE FOURIER TRANSFORMS

(By official appointment to Arby Studios)

Protect your loved ones - NOW - with this REVOLUTIONARY TECHNOLOGY!

Read more phrases like that NOW right here

http://www.manic.co.uk/Competition/Competitve%20Analysis_files/frame.htm




Thank god, I was starting to fear that everyone else was actually interested in this spam.

--------------------
getting better all the time..


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


Joined: 17/12/02
Posts: 4392
Loc: NYC: isle off the coast of Eur...
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311337 - 14/06/06 08:16 PM
Quote Nailbunny:

I know the guy that invented this new transfom,



Erm . . . or perhaps you work for him? Particularly since you have started spamming these forums (under multiple aliases even), you really should be straight with the rest of us as to your relationship with the company.

And, since you have been warned against continued spamming and I have explained to you via email the finer points of forum etiquette round these parts and therefore won't be issuing further spam posts, I would also suggest that if you are planning to stick around the forum, you'd do better just letting people know who you are and what is your relationship to the company so that your company/products can take advantage of some of the exposure and/or networking opportunities here in a sort of low key kinda way. Believe me . . . you'll do better in the long haul around with that kind of approach.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


Joined: 17/12/02
Posts: 4392
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311339 - 14/06/06 08:17 PM
Hehe . . . Andy (Byre) . . . LOL!

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311346 - 14/06/06 08:33 PM
Quote Nailbunny:

Well ok, i thought it was there. I know the guy that invented this new transfom, it wont be on google because its a new transform....Not too sure how much more info I can give you though but if you have a question feel free to ask




I mean't googling for the site which exists. I just didn't read the name correctly.

Anyway, I tried downloading the demo but the site seems to be a bit broken ...

UnderTow


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1Cal
member


Joined: 19/05/03
Posts: 67
Loc: Newcastle-under-Lyme, Stafford...
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311416 - 14/06/06 11:04 PM
Looked at the website, which seems totally irrelevent to this forum. Maybe I've missed some crucial point, but this is loosely based on stuff that a physics undegraduate would have been familiar with 25 years ago. Less of the baloney please and more about useful applications for 'the mystery of the ear'

Cal


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: 1Cal]
      #311434 - 14/06/06 11:54 PM
Quote 1Cal:

Looked at the website, which seems totally irrelevent to this forum.




Relax, we give spammers enough rope to hang themselves round here. Saves us the trouble of forming a lynch mob!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311467 - 15/06/06 06:09 AM
Well you may have all thought the website was irrelevant. But i for one found it extremely informative. Ive been working on my own random polarity shifting phsychoacoustic wavelet generator for some time now.

I wondered if you could have a look over my plans....

I find that the main output wavelet distrortion is pretty difficult to overcome. Particularly when using the phsycho regulators at a fixed input impedance. I wonder how you adressed the problems of wavelet imbalance in the primary phsycho wavelet beam attenuator. Or are you using parallel generators?

Any help gratefully accepted as always...





I can't believe some of you people still arent working with wavelets


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: __]
      #311471 - 15/06/06 06:42 AM


Have you considered replacing the Cereal Bypass with a 7.3 flapjacks Toast Spreader Array?

Edited by Steve Hill (15/06/06 06:43 AM)


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #311472 - 15/06/06 06:43 AM
Hmmm


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adrian_k



Joined: 30/01/03
Posts: 1743
Loc: Gloucestershire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: __]
      #311473 - 15/06/06 06:48 AM
fabulous... now if there was only some way to integrate the Convolving Re-Amplification Processor.......

--------------------
getting better all the time..


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: adrian_k]
      #311476 - 15/06/06 06:59 AM
Quote dunch:

...if there was only some way to integrate the Convolving Re-Amplification Processor.......




If i upgrade the cereal bypass, as suggested, It would be relatively simple to integrate a crap into the spreader array.


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adrian_k



Joined: 30/01/03
Posts: 1743
Loc: Gloucestershire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: __]
      #311478 - 15/06/06 07:01 AM
Quote ow:

Quote dunch:

...if there was only some way to integrate the Convolving Re-Amplification Processor.......




If i upgrade the cereal bypass, as suggested, It would be relatively simple to integrate a crap into the spreader array.




simple, maybe - ugly, definitely

--------------------
getting better all the time..


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311487 - 15/06/06 08:02 AM
LoL, interesting comments. I hesitate to say it but perhaps you don't understand? Wavelets need to window the signal and wont always provide accurate phase information, neither can fast fourier. We don't window the signal, the information that we can derive from any signal is 100% accurate. I don't even think that a $6million 'super computer' could use fourier to derive the level of accuracy that we are achieving.....on a laptop. We are based in Chipping Norton, if any of you are really perplexed we would be more than happy to show you around. Perhaps you can prove us wrong, lol, thats a challenge by the way!


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9305
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: __]
      #311510 - 15/06/06 08:35 AM
Quote ow:

Well you may have all thought the website was irrelevant. But i for one found it extremely informative. Ive been working on my own random polarity shifting phsychoacoustic wavelet generator for some time now.

I wondered if you could have a look over my plans....

I find that the main output wavelet distrortion is pretty difficult to overcome. Particularly when using the phsycho regulators at a fixed input impedance. I wonder how you adressed the problems of wavelet imbalance in the primary phsycho wavelet beam attenuator. Or are you using parallel generators?

Any help gratefully accepted as always...





I can't believe some of you people still arent working with wavelets




Your system is flawed Ow.

I see no dilithium crystals, no Uhuru, no Scottie room and there is not Borg rejuvenation pod.

Primitive system....

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311514 - 15/06/06 08:39 AM
OK, Mr. Nailbunny, if that is the case, then please tell us what this 'new technology' actually is.

Is it a method of sound processing?

You state that vocoding is now possible in realtime. Fine. I own three vocoders, one analogue, one digital hardware and one based on software, but all three do what they do in realtime. So that little statement alone - not counting all the others - leads me to the conclusion that your company may not really know what it is doing.

In other words, you might just have re-invented the wheel.

Hey, don't get me wrong - it is a mistake that is easily made. I did it just a few months back. I 'invented' a pre-amp that could take 1V line signals and 10mV mic signals and even guitar signals without any kind of pad or adjustment other than an input pot, only to discover that someone at Telefunken had come up with the same idea more or less before I was born (which was quite some time ago).

But nowhere on your website does it state what it is or how it works. If it is protected by patent as you claim, then the whole thing is a matter of public record anyway, so you should have no difficulty in telling us what is going on.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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jellyjim
active member


Joined: 15/05/02
Posts: 2997
Loc: uk
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: The Byre]
      #311517 - 15/06/06 08:43 AM
And the software's called "Stona" ... geddit? "Stoner" ... someone who's stoned a lot ...

arf ..

ha .................... te ............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311518 - 15/06/06 08:47 AM
Bear with me - We shall consult the inhouse Guru and post a reply asap (recombobulation in process)


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feline1
active member


Joined: 23/06/03
Posts: 4357
Loc: Brighton, UK
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311532 - 15/06/06 09:25 AM
you mean you're off to w@nk yourself unconscious?

Have fun!

Whatever they're product does,
I'm sure it'll sound *much* better if plugged in with a Russ Andrews mains cable

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311561 - 15/06/06 10:05 AM
Stop playing silly beggars....
grow up?

ian G


--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Edited by Forum Admin (15/06/06 12:35 PM)


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311574 - 15/06/06 10:25 AM
Hi, I do appologise fully and frankly for starting with a spam email . We would of course like to help the music industry and hope that the tech will go someway to doing this with development from some of the experts you can find on this forum. But it has been quite amusing reading the replies!


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Martin Simpson



Joined: 15/06/06
Posts: 3
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311580 - 15/06/06 10:36 AM
Sorry if you think this is spam.

I do have a background that includes neural research, audio engineering and audio software development, including speech recognition. As a part of this background I have been curious about how the ear really works, and most people think the FFT is where it is at. However, FFT's give you blurred information about the true frequency content in a signal, partly because of the requirement to window the data first. My guess last year was that the ear (or cochlea) is itself an additive (or parallel) synthesiser that is played by the brain – a musical instrument. Additive synthesis is based on Fourier's idea that any signal can be synthesised by adding together sine waves at different frequencies.

There is a lot of research into additive synthesis that is based on post processing the output of the FFT, or using STFT's or some other technique to determine which sine waves compose the signal, then using some kind of inverse FFT to re-create the sound. However, it has not been possible to generate a simple list of exactly which sine waves at what frequency and phase (or when they start) to add together to re-synthesise sounds.

When Stona is re-synthesising the input signal, it is doing exactly this, and in one mode you can see these sine waves flying past in real time 3D. If you plug a microphone into your PC and speak into it while running Stona you can see the sine waves your voice is composed of. If you just pluck a guitar string through it you can see what Pythagoras was talking about. Anyway, enough of the sales pitch.

Thanks for reading this if you did

Martin Simpson.


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Tímo



Joined: 25/09/02
Posts: 1828
Loc: Derby, England
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Martin Simpson]
      #311598 - 15/06/06 10:56 AM
Not sure about the "secret of hearing" thing, but i think the implementation behind Stona looks pretty damn cool, with lots of practical applications in audio production (moreso if it's able to be output in realtime, but the resolution and complexity of the 'decoded' audio waveform it's trying to display at any one time may hold it back?).

http://www.manic.co.uk/gallery.html

The concept, although not a new one in theory, would be great to add to the toolbox if/once it's practical application has been road-tested and approved. I'm open to, and all for, new useful technology and ideas that improve over pre-existing methods and concepts. Bring it on.


--------------------
http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3050
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: __]
      #311601 - 15/06/06 11:02 AM
Quote ow:










PMSL!!!!! Thought I'd reproduce it again as it is so good.
In the meantime, any members enjoying this thread might also want to check this one I made earlier.
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=openmic& Number=288006&Searchpage=1&Main=288006&Words=bit-washing&topic=&Search =true#Post288006

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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feline1
active member


Joined: 23/06/03
Posts: 4357
Loc: Brighton, UK
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Martin Simpson]
      #311613 - 15/06/06 11:14 AM
Quote Martin Simpson:

I have been curious about how the ear really works, and most people think the FFT is where it is at. However, FFT's give you blurred information about the true frequency content in a signal, partly because of the requirement to window the data first. My guess last year was that the ear (or cochlea) is itself an additive (or parallel) synthesiser that is played by the brain – a musical instrument.




Struggling to wade through the anthropomophic hermeneutics here ... erm, my brain "plays" my ear? Surely that's barse ackwards? Doesn't my ear listen? I thought my brain played by vocal chords?

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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Martin Simpson



Joined: 15/06/06
Posts: 3
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311622 - 15/06/06 11:28 AM
Yes, it does sound back to front, but by playing the ear we comprehend what signals are there, and the cochlear remains relatively still.

For anyone interested in the cochlea, have a look here:-

Promenade 'round the Cochlea


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feline1
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311645 - 15/06/06 11:53 AM
Martin Simpson,
there is precious little point using the anthropomorphic metaphor "play" here -
we are taking about an electrobiochemical system of nerves and stuff,
not about my brain sprouting arms and fingers and letting loose with some funky chops.

Or to put it more plainly -
what the devil are you talking about?

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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James PerrettModerator



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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311662 - 15/06/06 12:20 PM
Have you published any scientific papers on this? In refereed journals? I can't see any paper references on the website. If this method is really so novel I would have expected to see references to published papers.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311701 - 15/06/06 01:28 PM
Its very new, medical experts are looking at it at the moment as are signal processing experts. As to whether they will publish or not we cant be certain. Of course it would be nice to get in the Lancet medical journal....these things take time.


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UnderTow
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311703 - 15/06/06 01:32 PM

I've played arround with the demo. A few comments:

First up, with every single sample I play there is a horrible loud digital glitch at the very end of the file. This is unacceptable.

Secondly, for this to even be considered an audio engineering tool, it has to be able to use other formats than just 44.1 Khz/16 bit.

Thirdly, when you click on the 2D view toggle, the view should automaticly rest itself to show a face on view of the frequency plot. Also, there are no frequency markings in 2D view.

In 3D view, the frequency markings are blurred and hard to read. These need to be much bigger and crisper. Especially when you zoom out far enough to actually view the whole frquency range. Also, the frequency markings should be at the top rather than at the bottom as the waveforms hide the markings.

The audio glitches on playback on my dual CPU opteron based DAW. Either this needs to be fixed. (Hint, audio playback should always have priority over any other functions in the application for it to be considered an audio tool).

There are no audio settings. This could probably solve the previous issue. Increasing the buffer size for calculation would mean it could run on much slower computers. Having a few milliseconds of latency would not be a problem for this type of tool.

So in conclusion, in its current incarnation, Stona would be a nice free visualization plugin for Winamp but not a serious audio engineering tool.

UnderTow


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feline1
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311706 - 15/06/06 01:43 PM
I'm still not convinced this isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: feline1]
      #311707 - 15/06/06 01:47 PM
Quote feline1:

I'm still not convinced this isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up




Well, the medical experts looking at this are all interested in its applications in proctoscopy.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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TheBazmeister



Joined: 04/06/06
Posts: 300
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Martin Simpson]
      #311710 - 15/06/06 01:58 PM
Quote Martin Simpson:

Sorry if you think this is spam.
However, FFT's give you blurred information about the true frequency content in a signal, partly because of the requirement to window the data first.




I wouldn't say that's strictly true. Data is windowed to reduce the spurious frequency readings that would result from having a finite (and hence discontinuous) data sample. The only other inaccuracies come from the sampling rate of the data, although even that can be partly overcome with zero padding.


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feline1
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311719 - 15/06/06 02:18 PM
So how does it actually work again?

It takes a PCM audio signal and "plays" it?!?

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311724 - 15/06/06 02:29 PM
Under Tow
Thanks for the comments they have been duly noted
Indeed in its current state it would need to be developed into a serious audio engineering tool, cant agree more. It does have its uses though and can provide a degree of detail that can be useful, it helped us set up our speakers better for one. There are many applications we have planned, like a Cubase plugin or a plugin for mastering in Pro-Tools. What would you want from such a tool though? Fancy doing some development?


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311727 - 15/06/06 02:38 PM
RN perhaps, he was nailed up here recently. He also has the resources for a gag like this...

Manic
Gadideas
Stona

If it aint a windup then you good people are shooting yourselves in the commercial foot before youve started.

Great gag though... top shelf!


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311733 - 15/06/06 02:48 PM
Under Tow
Another thing to consider is that the program draws from all resources heavily on your computer, so the click usually means your computer isnt powefull enough...no offence...it is a cpu heavy program.


With regards to our "commercial foot", we have a sence of humour too.
We are putting together an FAQ over the next few days, so any more questions/suggestions are welcome.
Cheers


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311744 - 15/06/06 03:11 PM
TBH I havn't read your site, just nicked some of Byres lines and some others to have a laugh this AM. It had been a long night and i just woke up an hour ago aand read the thread and had a look at your site.

So please excuse me if you are developing a real product. Good luck with it all!

I saw there are medical applications. Noticed a Lancet paper pending and your guru mentioned ear parts so i suppose you have background in this area.

A recentish thread polled for hearing pproblems amongst our number. Tinnitus of varying degrees is suffered by many of the musos and techs here. Not suprising really. Would your software application have any use in the field of diagnosis and treatment?

Sorry if this is a naive question. But i really have no knowledge or grasp of the technologies youre working in.


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Nailbunny



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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311753 - 15/06/06 03:32 PM
Hi OW,
one of the concepts we have with this core technology is to further research into hearing issues such as Tinnitus.
There are several types of Tinnitus which we think we understand, I really cant say more at this stage unfortunately. Will start a new thread when we can tell you more about this I promise, one of the guys I work with used to have Tinnitus.


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feline1
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311765 - 15/06/06 03:48 PM
Perhaps tinnitus is when the cochlea plays the brain,
whilst the brain plays the pink oboe.

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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UnderTow
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311782 - 15/06/06 04:11 PM
Quote Nailbunny:

Under Tow
Another thing to consider is that the program draws from all resources heavily on your computer, so the click usually means your computer isnt powefull enough...no offence...it is a cpu heavy program.





It seems you didn't read my post properly. I have a powerfull dual Opteron based DAW. It can easily handle 200 tracks of 24/48Khz audio with literaly dozens of heavy plugins and soft synths. (Like convolution reverbs, linear phase EQs etc ...). If the program won't run properly on this system, it isn't a viable product for 99% of computers out there.

If by developement you mean participating in beta testing and giving feedback, sure. This is best done by email though. Contact me at undertow AT trance DOT org

Cheers,

UnderTow


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feline1
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: UnderTow]
      #311785 - 15/06/06 04:17 PM
Quote UnderTow:


It seems you didn't read my post properly. I have a powerfull dual Opteron based DAW.




And you still think it's not a wind-up...?

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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UnderTow
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: feline1]
      #311791 - 15/06/06 04:31 PM
Quote feline1:



And you still think it's not a wind-up...?




Do you really believe people would put so much effort into creating this software just as a joke? Either I am overestimating the sanity of people or you are underestimating it. At the moment I think you are wrong. Only time will tell.

UnderTow


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feline1
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311792 - 15/06/06 04:36 PM
Perhaps you underestimate the boredom of people trapped in offices in dayjobs unable to watch the football.

On the other hand, maybe they really *are* talking that much shite.

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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default



Joined: 25/07/05
Posts: 1099
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #311903 - 15/06/06 10:07 PM
I was working on this type of concept a couple of weeks ago, only to stumble into one obstacle after another. It seems, to put it simply, that a computer needs artificial intelligence to keep up with the sujectivity fields that the brain spontaneously spawns at the point of neural bifurcation.

But since I'm not the programming type, I decided to take the easy path and copy my consciousness onto my win98 'system', since it has access to the internet and would be able to Google up its own resources if neccesary.

But something went terribly wrong. I am now stuck inside a system that makes it hard to think, with an enormous crash-anxiety syndrome and no idea if I am simply a cheap copy of myself or if my body is lying dead in a room nobody can access.

Don't play with these concepts, it is very dangerous!


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9360
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: default]
      #311923 - 15/06/06 11:07 PM
I'm forced to admit curiosity .... and since they're based figuratively, "just up the road" from me....

I sense a visit might be in order...... Hugh's not a Zillion miles from there either.....

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Steve Hill
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #311988 - 16/06/06 08:28 AM
Quote Max The Mac:

I'm forced to admit curiosity .... and since they're based figuratively, "just up the road" from me....

I sense a visit might be in order...... Hugh's not a Zillion miles from there either.....

Max




Max - my curiosity is piqued too. I spoke to them yesterday and we are going to speak again next week when I emerge from a busy couple of days in the studio. I shall certainly be travelling the 5 miles to Chipping Norton so let's hook up?

All: will post some feedback after we've eyeballed (earlobed?) this thing!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312005 - 16/06/06 09:04 AM
We would love for you to pop round the office, let us know when and we shall get some beer in


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__
Who's never been here


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Posts: 6263
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312009 - 16/06/06 09:11 AM
If this is a gag its an extremely eleborate one.


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312032 - 16/06/06 10:31 AM
With regards to the glitch that UnderTow was experiencing, we think it is the graphics card radeon 9200 (very commonly used by audiophiles!). As Martin has one of these at home we shall endevour to fix the issue asap.


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3050
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312093 - 16/06/06 01:05 PM
Errrr... am I the person reading this thread who doesn't understand what this no-doubt amazing process actually does? I get the bit about the pretty pictures, but Windows Media Player already does that well enough for me.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3050
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312095 - 16/06/06 01:09 PM
I've just invented a robotic cat that farts brand new hit singles in SysEx format. How's that?

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3050
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312101 - 16/06/06 01:13 PM
I have also produced a graph of Mozart's dying thoughts. In 5 dimensions.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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amitbarde



Joined: 15/12/05
Posts: 168
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312116 - 16/06/06 01:44 PM
Well since the discussion is about psychoacoustics everyone here would do well to read up this thesis prepared by one of friend's on psychoacoustics. It's good a lot of good information and it's been done after a certain amount of consulatation with David Griesinger, the chief physicist at Lexicon. It's a great read and a lot of you would probably benifit by reading it....it's got the potential to make your mixes sound better if you try some of the things that are there in this. I tried some of these techniques out myself...makes everything sound nice and gives you the "tools" to achieve the sound you are looking for in your mix!
Perception and Effective Reproduction of Sound


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
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Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312123 - 16/06/06 02:00 PM
Quote Nailbunny:

Its very new, medical experts are looking at it at the moment as are signal processing experts. As to whether they will publish or not we cant be certain. Of course it would be nice to get in the Lancet medical journal....these things take time.




I would have thought that the AES journal would be equally appropriate.

The one question that keeps on going through my mind is "what would JJ make of this"? I'm no expert on aural perception but I would be really interested to hear from an independent expert like JJ. And if you don't know who JJ is then I respectfully suggest that you aren't serious about this.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #312151 - 16/06/06 02:55 PM
Quote Richard Graham:

I have also produced a graph of Mozart's dying thoughts. In 5 dimensions.




And I'm the one whos post gets edited!!!

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark

Edited by Shaun Dark (16/06/06 02:56 PM)


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Bunty Mindhorn



Joined: 15/06/06
Posts: 1
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312154 - 16/06/06 02:59 PM
I also am working on this project, but havent posted yet so here we go.

To the last comment, I would like to suggest that we are most definitely very serious about this! But we dont know JJ. Sorry.
















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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312156 - 16/06/06 03:00 PM
Did I meet JJ at the garden party?


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10753
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Bunty Mindhorn]
      #312283 - 16/06/06 10:37 PM
Quote Bunty Mindhorn:

To the last comment, I would like to suggest that we are most definitely very serious about this! But we dont know JJ. Sorry.





I guess you aren't serious enough - I think a little more research is called for because I suspect that if you don't know who JJ is then you don't actually know very much about what others have done in this field. JJ is one of the world's foremost authorities on how we perceive sound and how the ear functions. You may not be familiar with him but most of us will have listened to the results of his work. The other reason that I mentioned his name is that he is well known for calling a spade a spade and doesn't suffer fools gladly. He's fairly easy to find too.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Martin Simpson



Joined: 15/06/06
Posts: 3
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312345 - 17/06/06 07:12 AM
Hi James,

JJ was not a name I came across when I was searching for the state of the art in understanding the ear, but I did find a lot of research and papers from other people and places, including the AES.

Could you give me a bit more information about JJ please?

Cheers,

Martin.


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Steve Hill
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Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312347 - 17/06/06 07:21 AM
Admitting my ignorance, I've never heard of JJ either.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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JosephR



Joined: 23/01/06
Posts: 204
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: default]
      #312435 - 17/06/06 11:56 AM
Quote:

I was working on this type of concept a couple of weeks ago, only to stumble into one obstacle after another. It seems, to put it simply, that a computer needs artificial intelligence to keep up with the sujectivity fields that the brain spontaneously spawns at the point of neural bifurcation.

But since I'm not the programming type, I decided to take the easy path and copy my consciousness onto my win98 'system', since it has access to the internet and would be able to Google up its own resources if neccesary.

But something went terribly wrong. I am now stuck inside a system that makes it hard to think, with an enormous crash-anxiety syndrome and no idea if I am simply a cheap copy of myself or if my body is lying dead in a room nobody can access.

Don't play with these concepts, it is very dangerous!




I've arrived a bit late to this discussion but thanks Muied that's just really amused me!!!

I haven't checked out the software/website etc...neither am i particularly qualified to comment on the subject, however what i do know is that i've never had any trouble with FFT as a process and from what i've heard i doubt it'd be too hard to create a similar application to yours using Max/MSP & Jitter.

Of course, this wouldn't be radically new technology...it'd be relying on the "bog-standard" FFT objects supplied in MSP, (which rely on windowing), and imho functions more than adequately! These signals could then be supplied to a network of Jitter objects which could create a realtime visual output which would be more than sufficient for the application in question.

If you have created a more effective & efficient method of spectral analysis, then fairplay to you...but i suspect, as has already been mentioned, that at best you've just reinvented the wheel!

I will however reserve judgement, because i haven't checked it out and i wouldn't want to discourage you from researching and producing new solutions which benefit the field of Sound Technology.

One thing i will say, as has previously been mentioned your product would definitely benefit from rebranding...without meaning to sound cynical, the name Stona is only really going to appeal to students who will be interested in pirating your software and not paying you anything for your work. To my mind Stona, (stoner), conjures images of laziness, inefficiency and general incompetence...which is not what i'm looking for in a Spectral Analyser!

Good luck to you and keep innovating


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: James Perrett]
      #312531 - 17/06/06 05:33 PM
Quote James Perrett:

Quote Nailbunny:

Its very new, medical experts are looking at it at the moment as are signal processing experts. As to whether they will publish or not we cant be certain. Of course it would be nice to get in the Lancet medical journal....these things take time.




I would have thought that the AES journal would be equally appropriate.

The one question that keeps on going through my mind is "what would JJ make of this"? I'm no expert on aural perception but I would be really interested to hear from an independent expert like JJ.




Zwislocki? Just give the name. You seem to be acting disingenuously.

UnderTow


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UnderTow
member


Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: amitbarde]
      #312533 - 17/06/06 05:34 PM
Quote amitbarde:

Well since the discussion is about psychoacoustics everyone here would do well to read up this thesis prepared by one of friend's on psychoacoustics. It's good a lot of good information and it's been done after a certain amount of consulatation with David Griesinger, the chief physicist at Lexicon. It's a great read and a lot of you would probably benifit by reading it....it's got the potential to make your mixes sound better if you try some of the things that are there in this. I tried some of these techniques out myself...makes everything sound nice and gives you the "tools" to achieve the sound you are looking for in your mix!
Perception and Effective Reproduction of Sound




"The page you are attempting to access has been removed because it violated Angelfire's Terms of Service."

Is it anywhere esle?

UnderTow


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10753
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Martin Simpson]
      #312787 - 18/06/06 05:47 PM
Quote Martin Simpson:



Could you give me a bit more information about JJ please?

Cheers,

Martin.




JJ is short for Jim Johnson.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #312866 - 18/06/06 09:33 PM
Hi OW your sound processor really works, I got my brother who is an engineer to make a prototype. I got a basic sine wave, dialled up the 'girlfriend in bed' preset and completly transformed the sound.

Here are the results, first the sine wave followed by the processed version :

sine wave processed by 'girlfriend in bed' setting


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #312873 - 18/06/06 09:45 PM
You know thats just fantastic. I wrestled for hours before finally deciding to put the analogue warmth generators post the wavelet beam encoder array. It's so worth it when you hear the perfectly phase balanced bottom frequencies. Top job, really superb, bravo! I take it he used dual generators?


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #313035 - 19/06/06 09:59 AM
Just in case anyone was wondering...Stona stands for Simpson Transform Optimised Neural Analyser.


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gerard



Joined: 07/02/05
Posts: 2608
Loc: London, UK
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #313046 - 19/06/06 10:16 AM
Quote Nailbunny:

Just in case anyone was wondering...Stona stands for Simpson Transform Optimised Neural Analyser.




-=shaking head=-

try this, S.T.O.N.A.

oh yeah, just wondering... where did you go to school?

i have kids, and i would prefer if they didn't go to the same school you attended...


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Shaun Dark



Joined: 19/09/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Bristol
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: gerard]
      #313337 - 19/06/06 08:04 PM
Quote gerard:

Quote Nailbunny:

Just in case anyone was wondering...Stona stands for Simpson Transform Optimised Neural Analyser.




-=shaking head=-

try this, S.T.O.N.A.

oh yeah, just wondering... where did you go to school?

i have kids, and i would prefer if they didn't go to the same school you attended...




aaahahaha

--------------------
http://shaundrk.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/shaundark


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Nailbunny



Joined: 20/03/06
Posts: 25
Re: MYSTERY OF THE EAR FINALLY UNRAVELLED new [Re: Nailbunny]
      #314618 - 22/06/06 03:09 PM
its an Americanizm


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