its taking a long old time, but gradually the dinosaurs who stalk this forum are finding less and less nourishment in their grazing

I guess they've all gone to bed...

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote hectormolecular:

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I guess they've all gone to bed...

---

What better place to scratch?

Still up here, sorry.

"Don't criticise what you can't understand"? Sorry George, come on.... my "problem" here is very simple.

Namely I do understand, all too well. A lot of people wil turn out for the royal fireworks; a few do so because Handel can write music. We're talking about selling spectacle, not music. That's fine, and it can be done well, and it can be enjoyable. And sometimes even I like it.

But please don't endow it with false gravitas by confusing the musician with the pyrotechnician... the two are poles apart.

You may say it's just my opinion and should therefore be discounted. However, I have not seen a contrary view which is not also just an equally "unprovable" opinion.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Do you not realise how substandard some MOR and pub rock musicians are, yet they are still called musicians, yet virtuoso turntablists are not? I sometimes work with a national ballet company's education department and some of the stuck up musicians just can't play, its as simple as that - yet they are still called musicians.
There are proper instruments that are difficult to play that I'm not that interested in, however I love some much simpler instruments such as the berimbu, cuica, washboard and of course turntables. I really like my music work - I get a call, sometimes they tell me I will be playing acoustic piano, sometimes they say it will be laptop, its just depends what the job needs.

For the record Steve I would have agreed with you in 1975 because that was before scratching got going in the South Bronx and it was not possible to beat match on turntables because of the mixer.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote noiseconjecture:

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Quote Rob C.:

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More importantly... do DJs matter as musicians? Name a dozen who do.

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Grand Mixer DST
Rob Swift
Jazzy Jeff
Jammaster Jay
Qbert
Andy Smith
Mark One
Mixmaster Mike
Norman Cook
Otomo Yoshihide
DJ Disk
Derrick May

---

And that is precisely the point. The dozen who matter to you as musicians are pretty much invisible in the world at large. Norman Cook who people might know isn't just, or originally, a DJ.

So call them musicians... but also realise that it isn't a very important distinction.

This whole debate; George's article and the response is somewhat contrived and meaningless.

I can replace a tap washer... am I a plumber? Who cares?

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www.bemuso.com

Quote Steve Hill:

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Namely I do understand, all too well.

You may say it's just my opinion and should therefore be discounted. However, I have not seen a contrary view which is not also just an equally "unprovable" opinion.

---

I think Rob C has a fair point here, and I don't want to keep banging on about who is and isn't a musician when what you call them is indeed neither here nor there: what matters is what you do.

But Steve, yours is not 'just an opinion' and my argument with it is not 'unprovable'.

Firstly, nobody ever said you don't understand orchestral instrumentation or musical theory or whatever, I think the point was that you clearly don't understand the practices of people that go under the title 'DJ' - particularly those for who 'playing records' is not even close to what they do.

As I said before, you seem to be defining 'musician' in terms of users of some predefined list of 'musical instruments'. If Steve Hill doesn't think some apparatus reaches some threshhold of expressiveness then the person who uses it is not a musician.

Even if that IS your view, then you are plain wrong about turntablism. You compare it to some childish woodblock affair, which is evidence enough for most of us of how little you understand, both about turntables and about children.

And if that isn't your view, then do you count yourself among those who think what ALL DJs do is 'play records'? If so, you understand even less and are even more mistaken.

Sure, there are plenty of opinions out there about what music is, but there are also plenty of FACTS about what DJs are and can be capable of, and about the expressive possibilities of anything from a turntable to a washboard. There seem to be a lot of people who persist in being in denial about this.

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote Rob C.:

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George's article

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When I say George, I mean Harry of course.

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www.bemuso.com

Quote Rob C.:

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Quote Rob C.:

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George's article

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When I say George, I mean Harry of course.

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Funny that, when I say Rob C, I actually mean Mel B from the Spice Girls

But what's even stranger is, when I mean what I say I make hardly any sense?!?!?

Did you know, them lot at SOS are letting me do another piece, I think I might do a review on stylus's

Now them were the good old days. Going to Woolies to get a a double sided needle, one side for 45 and 33 and a third rpm for those one take 78rpm's

Oh dear George, you're showing everyone what an old duffer you are. Next you'll saying Barry Manilow is a genius (as it happens he's the most accomplish musician I've worked with)

Gawdhelp me to stop typing NOW!

Big George (49)



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Big George

I am undergoing treatment for a severe bout of Context-Induced Webley Differentiation Failure. It's not pleasant, but I'll be a better person when it's finished.

Mel.

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www.bemuso.com

Just to make you feel older George, Im trying to source a stylus for my wonderful Goldring Lenco turntable from the 70's.

Quite simply the nicest-sounding turntable Ive ever owned and bequeathed to me by my old jamming partner (and excellent guitarist) Norrie.

When i first got it I stuck on "Renegade SOundwave in Dub" (it was a few years ago) - and I couldnt believe the clarity, definition, seperation - and the BASS!!!!

49 is OK - I'm 37 - doesnt look as nice in print as 49 - and 37 doesnt divide into 7 evenly - so think yourself lucky

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"If I had all the money i'd spent on drink, i'd spend it on drink". Vivian Stanshall

Quote Big George:

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I think I might do a review on stylus's

Now them were the good old days. Going to Woolies to get a a double sided needle, one side for 45 and 33 and a third rpm for those one take 78rpm's

---

Surely for 78s the choice is going to be between steel, ebony, or compressed hog's bristle? You don't really want one of those hybrid bogus diamond jobbies. It'll wreck all your Eddie Fisher singles.

How did you know I was a Spice Girl by the way? I've been very discrete, or so I thought...

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www.bemuso.com

I'm not rising to this, you know my view and you know it's a personal opinion. And I respect your opinion - which is all it is, not an incontrovertible fact.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Rob C:

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How did you know I was a Spice Girl by the way? I've been very discrete, or so I thought...

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Your Avatar rather gives it away

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"If I had all the money i'd spent on drink, i'd spend it on drink". Vivian Stanshall

Edited by Les (01/08/06 01:31 PM)

I have these ... strong memories shall we say, of playing the guitar, of playing the drums, and of practising scratching on an old turntable. (it was my first ever Akai, but the action was considerably better with a J cloth popped under the best of the Lovin' Spoonful).

Of course it turns out that its only my opinion that I did these things: perhaps they never happened!

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote Steve Hill:

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I respect your opinion - which is all it is, not an incontrovertible fact.

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I’m worried now Steve, you’re sounding like a Katie Melua song. Just put my mind at rest, how many bicycles have you got?

Quote Les:

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49 is OK - I'm 37 - doesn't look as nice in print as 49 - and 37 doesnt divide into 7 evenly - so think yourself lucky

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49 is what I am, but my showbiz age is 31 and had been for eight years now. In 2008 it’ll go up to 35

Quote Rob C.:

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I am undergoing treatment for a severe bout of Context-Induced Webley Differentiation Failure

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Mel, I hear you’ve shacked up with Eddie Murphy, well goony goo goo to you (for those who don’t know what I’m talking about, check his RAW stand up video, quite a chuckle, but not as good as DELIRIOUS






As a matter of interest, Harry managed to blag his way onto a Snoop Dogg (about as far away from my taste as you can get) gig a while back. He's alsosupported Kanye West and a few other USA billionaire hip hoppers a few times. And as ever, he didn’t make enough to retire. In fact he didn’t make the bus fare home!



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Big George

Quote Big George:

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Quote Steve Hill:

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I respect your opinion - which is all it is, not an incontrovertible fact.

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I’m worried now Steve, you’re sounding like a Katie Melua song. Just put my mind at rest, how many bicycles have you got?

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Oxford has more than enough bicycles already - about nine million I reckon. So I'll stick to my eco-friendly 4x4 on the grounds that I live in the country and it has real mud on it (esp. since hosepipe ban).

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Big George:

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Mel, I hear you’ve shacked up with Eddie Murphy...

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Don't talk to me about Eddie. He can be so... brusque.

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www.bemuso.com

geez guys,

there must be a forum for eddie murphy's exes someplace...

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote hectormolecular:

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geez guys,

there must be a forum for eddie murphy's exes someplace...

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Don't you see it - they've lost the argument, so rather than admit they were wrong they've changed the subject?

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No longer a forum member.

I think you're right. 'Hector' put up a pretty convincing case and I tend to agree with it.

One thing that often turns up is that people seem to have very limited understanding of the work of the artists they point a finger at.

I noticed on of the emails above covered both Carl Cox and Steve Hillage - system 7 (and this is in no way directed at the poster of that email).

Interestingly Steve Hillage has gone on record as saying that the Carl Cox DJ set at Glastonbury was his all time favourite festival expirience (maybe it was his all time favourite Glastonbury expirience). Steve Hillage must have been to some huge amount of festivals over the last 30 years, I recon I have seen him play at 15 or more.

I was there for that Carl Cox gig. It was Sunday afternoon/evening and everyone was pretty exhausted. Not only was the Dance tent full (it was a very big tent) but the sides were rolled up and the whole field was packed. Everyone went crazy in a way that I have never seen in my 25 years of attending live gigs. Some of it was time and place but much of it was his skill as an artist. It was one of my best music expiriences ever and a lot of the people who were with me feel the same.

Of course Carl Cox has also released at least three Albums of his own material along with EPs and a number of singles.

Steve Hillage, as well as being in System 7 and Gong also produced a number of Charlatans and Simple Minds albums and contributed to the Orb.

For what it is worth, when you look at the non comercial forms of dance music which are squarely aimed at the expirience you get on the dance floor there is a partnership between the producer and the DJ.

Producers cut tracks in a DJ friendly way specifically so that they can be manipulated by the DJ. A number of the people I have met who are sucsesful in dance genre's have a very direct relationship between a group of producers and a group of DJs (where several in the group might perform both roles).

The delivery of the musical expirence on the dance floor requires the skill of both parties, the music, as it should be delivered and heard could not exist without this relationship. The DJ is as important to the finished product as the producer.

Finally, I am into my forties and grew up on a diet of Jazz, clasical and 60s pop (Beatles, Yardbirds, Stones, Faces, Kinks, etc). In my 'formative' years I was buying Pink Floyd, Zappa, Steely Dan and Folk plus a bit of ACDC, Springsteen, Joan Armatrading, well alsorts really but quality (IMO) stuff.

Now I buy mainly dance (though I still buy Jazz) from mellow house and Detroit style Techno through to Acid Techno and PsyTrance. I love it, it gets me in a very deep place. Hopefully in the future I will also be open to the newer styles of music that emerge and the new ways in which they might be performed and delivered.

Quote Squarepeg:

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Finally, I am into my forties and grew up on a diet of Jazz, clasical and 60s pop (Beatles, Yardbirds, Stones, Faces, Kinks, etc). In my 'formative' years I was buying Pink Floyd, Zappa, Steely Dan and Folk plus a bit of ACDC, Springsteen, Joan Armatrading, well alsorts really but quality (IMO) stuff.

Now I buy mainly dance (though I still buy Jazz) from mellow house and Detroit style Techno through to Acid Techno and PsyTrance. I love it, it gets me in a very deep place. Hopefully in the future I will also be open to the newer styles of music that emerge and the new ways in which they might be performed and delivered.

---

I also come from a classical, jazz, 60s pop background you (I've been a musician for 28 years) and now I listen to mainly dance music also, particularly minimal techno, more underground trance and ambient. I think the producers in this field are underated. I don't think the Djs in the creative side of DJing are stuck up or full of themselves at all, they are really keen to learn and develop in my experience.
One of the things about underground dance is the quality of the sound programming and they way everything is put together, it is a very creative area at the moment.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote noiseconjecture:

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I think the producers in this field are underated.

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I agree. Quite frankly I am am in awe of some of these people (which is a sad state of affairs for someone at my age).

I try to do my own stuff in a simialr vain in some styles but I don't have the geniune talent or time to get close. Actually, the standard of the output is increasing faster than I can possibly learn (though I am still improving). I still love trying though. It is more a form of meditation (perhaps not quite the right word but I am sure some of you know what I mean, it lets me switch off compltely) for me these days but something that I still very much enjoy.

Quote Big George:

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Hip Hop and turntablism has been a musical movement for 30 years, give or take a doo wop singer on the street corner

Like it or not (and I can’t stand it) it’s a musical genre that came from the street

If you slag it off, then I'm afraid you’ve become your Dad and need a pair of slipper this Christmas

And talking of Dads, I’m Harry’s Dad and I can honestly said when he was living at home he drove us mad with the scratching (in my day a scratched record was one you replaced), but all I will say is, he practiced (and still does) more than I ever did and when I’ve been over to Dublin to see him do his thang, 100’s of young people rock out just like I did to my heroes back in the day

Feel free to have opinions, but back to Bob "your old road is rapidly fading"

We live in manufactured times and as far as I'm concerned, anyone who makes music for arts sake rather than commerce (and here again I hold my hand up) should be praised rather than feared

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Well I am 62 George... No slippers yet but heading that way.
My whole point in the original post was that once again we have some dork who twiddles turntables claiming to replace traditional musicians, whereas without the skills of traditional musicians this knob hea oops twiddler wouldn`t be able to do what he does in the first place.
I have no problem at all with DJ`s doing their thing, but why oh why do they seem to have this overwhelming need to be seen as `as good as musicians`? Isn`t it enough that they are respected admired and extremely well paid by the general public in the first place?
DJ`s as a breed have been pushing live musicians into a not as well paid corner since the early seventies, because at the time, a traditional DJ`s only skill had to be a knack for sticking the right record on at the right time, which gave the ones that were good at it a viable gig base from which to branch out and experiment with the scratch stuff, etc.
Sadly us rocky-rolly muso`s were busy alienating audiences by playing twenty minute, boring guitar solo`s instead of the current top 40 which is where the DJ`s scored every time.
Then came punk, which meant we sounded even less like a viable form of entertainment to a large percentage of the (paying) public.

Maybe what we should be doing is promoting musicians as being as good as DJ`s to dance to!!!

I agree 100% that there should be room for all formsa of musical expression, but I also wish the DJ`s could be content to be what they are.

M.U.? I lost patience with them years ago. I remember arriving in cambridge from London in 1960, signing on at my local and hearing a vote on whether or not to allow rock akd roll musicinas into our branch on the grounds that they weren`t proper musicians. Interestingly, the President at the time was one Syd barrett, a double bass player and all around nice bloke, who stood up for the rock and rollers. They let me in because i was a jazzer at the time, but within a year 90% of the gigs the membership had worked for years in local ballrooms etc. were gone. The same thing happened with the DJ`s in the seventies and as a result live music has become a minor part of the local gig scene, which is of course dominated by local mobile dj`s.

Shining example of current trends is two mates, both of whom sing well, play drums well and one also plays pretty good guitar. Their gig is as a Blues Brothers tribute act performing to bought-in, pre recorded backing tracks and for the majority of their work (weddings and functions) they offer a Disco in with the price.
Or is it the other way round? They make really good money, but both wish they were actually playing in `real` bands.

ow and noiseconjecture, please understand that I have never said DJ`s are not good at what they do, just that they sure as hell arent the future of musicianship in my book.
Perhaps you could cover my point about what the DJ`s are going to use once all the musicians who actually play instruments have quit playing and there is nothing new to scratch, sample, etc.? I can just imagine Radio Free Hereward in 2106 playing yet another rehash of that drum part from Sex Machine skillfully mixed in with the bass hook from Africa, with vocal snippets from various Enya compositions floated tastefully over the top....
*yawn* where`s me pipe and slippers?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

You fears are misguided Ivan SC, I agree with you about wallies who drive cars with fluffy dice in the back making a bit of extra money at weekends playing the obvious pop songs, this is the popular image of DJs. But it is wrong, the same as the image of drunken musicians who can't play very well and spend their time leching after females is a wrong image of musicians. The club DJs or turntablists are no threat to live music and to me they are live music. What is the difference between me doing a set on solo piano and me doing a set on turntables or laptop? It is music not a gymnastics competition to see who is the most skilled. I know it is more difficult to play a classical violin solo than it is guitar in one of the new guitar bands but personally I enjoy listening to guitar bands more. Many groups e.g. Groove Armada, Faithles, play live on real instruments, DJ and produce.
The skills are changing and I consider myself no less of a musician on laptop, or mixing tracks for DJs than when I am playing solo piano. Most DJs however do not earn that much money and now I gather you will not get the really good jobs unless you are a producer aswell.
Unfortunately the article you are referring to I do not think was well argued and found myself disagreeing with it even though I support the cause. At the risk of sounding arrogant I wrote a far better one for the MU magazine a few years which unfotunately is no longer on their website.

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No longer a forum member.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rR-i0qRHLpM

Quote IvanSC:

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Maybe what we should be doing is promoting musicians as being as good as DJ`s to dance to!!!

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NOW YOU'RE TALKING

FIGHTING SPIRIT AT LAST

I AM SERIOUS ABOUT RECLAIMING OUR INDUSTRY FROM THE MARKETING/ACCOUNTANTS WHO USED TO BE A PART OF THE PROCESS, BUT NOW OWN AND DOMINATE IT



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Big George

Quote Big George:

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Quote IvanSC:

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Maybe what we should be doing is promoting musicians as being as good as DJ`s to dance to!!!

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NOW YOU'RE TALKING

FIGHTING SPIRIT AT LAST

I AM SERIOUS ABOUT RECLAIMING OUR INDUSTRY FROM THE MARKETING/ACCOUNTANTS WHO USED TO BE A PART OF THE PROCESS, BUT NOW OWN AND DOMINATE IT

---

Hi George, and your articles go a long way to showing how parasitic and useless these marketing managers/ accountants are.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote noiseconjecture:

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What is the difference between me doing a set on solo piano and me doing a set on turntables or laptop?

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The former does not inherently require the existence of a previous musical performanace created by someone else, whereas a turntable or laptop set would?

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http://www.partyfearsthree.co.uk

Quote noiseconjecture:

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your articles (went) a long way to showing how parasitic and useless these marketing managers/ accountants are.

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And that's why I'm starting them up again in the next (but one? I mean, how would I know anyway) issue

As I recall I stopped as I said I wanted to have a hit record, why I've just had. So, armed with insider knowledge, it's time to ranting

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Big George

Have you George? Must've missed that - go on, admit it, you write for McFly

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"If I had all the money i'd spent on drink, i'd spend it on drink". Vivian Stanshall

Quote Steve A:

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Quote noiseconjecture:

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What is the difference between me doing a set on solo piano and me doing a set on turntables or laptop?

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The former does not inherently require the existence of a previous musical performance created by someone else, whereas a turntable or laptop set would?

---

Well, a creative one but not necessarily one that requires a musician in the strictest sense (this widens the subject and we have been here before but what the heck).

(There is no reflection on NoiseC here, I have listened to some of his stuff - which is excellent - and he is clearly a talented musician).

You don't need to be a skilful player of a musical instrument to make good music. It helps, I am sure it helps a lot, but some forms of electronic music certainly don't require it.

I have very limited skill with a keyboard (and my music theory is not great, though I have some) but I still like to play around with ideas for bass lines, riffs etc on a midi keyboard recorded into Logic. I can then go back and edit manually, maybe use some quantising, transposition etc.

I could probably dispense with the keyboard altogether and get similar results with a mouse but it is less fun. Similarly I might put drums in with a mouse, from the keyboard or, occasionally, use a loop. Is it more or less creative? I don't know to be honest, writing in piano roll or staff (which I could do but rarely use) is not much different to writing on paper.

I used to play some of my material out 'live' and wasn't bottled off the stage, it was ok, people danced. By 'live' - used to take a large and somewhat expensive midi rig out driven by a dedicated sequencer or laptop - you felt you were putting some effort in (both through knob twiddling and the effort required in setting everything up) but I could easily do the same thing with Live and a couple of USB controllers these days - actually Live would be more interactive but would look less impressive.

Personally I would not have bravado to call myself a musician as I don't play an instrument in any real sense (though I used to be able to get a fair tune out of a bugle many years ago). I do create original music (in that I almost never use samples), I am ok at synth programming and can (after many years) engineer and mix an acceptable sound.

I think electronic music blurs the boundaries of what the term musician means. And, if you use the strict term of someone who plays a musical instrument then that gives little credit to the talented creative player.

There are instrumentalists, there are turntablists, and there are producers who make amazing original material but are neither. There are talented instrument players with very limited creative ability and there are original and exciting bands with quite limited playing skills.

I think, perhaps, the term musician worked better in an earlier age where its definition was clearer.

Quote Steve A:

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Quote noiseconjecture:

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What is the difference between me doing a set on solo piano and me doing a set on turntables or laptop?

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The former does not inherently require the existence of a previous musical performanace created by someone else, whereas a turntable or laptop set would?

---

I think this question highlights exactly what I felt Steve Hill and IvanSC don't understand about the musicianship in turntablism.

both of them are perfectly happy with what DJs do, but think that they have no claim on the term musician because they misunderstand the extent to which what they do relies on the waveform imprinted on the record. Obviously if all your doing is playing records (recent David Mancuso style)then you are not a musician.

Some of the DJs I have seen on stage (DJ Vadim for example) spent a lot of time literally just locating one stable single-note section of, e.g. a classical record, and then used a scratching-like to action replay the waveform at different speeds (and hence pitches) to play basslines, which sounded brilliant, while somebody else either beatboxed (new thread!) or played loops on further decks. In this case, the music relied no more on the original recording than a piano performance does on the 'original waveforms' that each string makes when struck and sustained. I doubt we are going to hear any of the naysayers arguing that the only real musicians in a recital of the moonlight sonata were the craftsmen who made the piano, upon whom the pianist relies completely for his sound source.

Clearly somebody like DJ Vadim is doing more extreme things than the bulk of DJs, but therein lies a spectrum, which runs smoothly all the way from the likes of Vadim to the inevitable cataclysm of Tony Blackburn.

Perhaps we just need some new words here. If we are going to define DJ as 'somebody who uses turntables' then of course not all of them are musicians, but some of them sure as hell are, in a way that nobody can argue with.

Perhaps these people should be referred to only as 'turnablists'? I don't think so, I like the term DJ, and it gives to the art the weight of the heritage it grew from.

So let's go back to the start and say that playing records is no longer good enough to qualify as a DJ?

What is Blackburn? A Disc Jerk?

or that glasgow favourite - a knob jockey?

I'm afraid he's a DJ too, but thankfully it's not my fault.

yours,

'Hector' (I also like it when someone puts my name in inverted commas (see above) - it means their thinking - 'Hector', if that IS your real name...

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote Big George:

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Oh dear George, you're showing everyone what an old duffer you are. Next you'll saying Barry Manilow is a genius (as it happens he's the most accomplish musician I've worked with)

Gawdhelp me to stop typing NOW!

Big George (49)

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(rofl) Er for me it was Jack Jones - perfect pitch really means perfect with him. Most intimidating and he was actually a nice, relaxed guy to work with...
Do we get a special award for the oldest names dropped on here ever? On the other had I have suits that are older than you, son.

My first turntable used blackthorn needles held in place with a knurled-headed bolt. All very unsavoury, but I would defy anybody to scratch (in the modern sense of the word) with one of them...

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Big George:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

Maybe what we should be doing is promoting musicians as being as good as DJ`s to dance to!!!

---

NOW YOU'RE TALKING

FIGHTING SPIRIT AT LAST

I AM SERIOUS ABOUT RECLAIMING OUR INDUSTRY FROM THE MARKETING/ACCOUNTANTS WHO USED TO BE A PART OF THE PROCESS, BUT NOW OWN AND DOMINATE IT

---

With you there, George. First millionaire in the Pink Floyd setup was.... Steve O`Rourke. Why?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote hectormolecular:

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Steve Hill and IvanSC don't understand about the musicianship in turntablism.

both of them are perfectly happy with what DJs do, but think that they have no claim on the term musician because they misunderstand the extent to which what they do relies on the waveform imprinted on the record.

---

Nope - I know exactly what the Turntablists are about - worked with many in my time. I have the same problem with music generated exclusively from non-proprietorial samples.

Finding a wave form and generating it are two different things. Yes granted it is very skillful etc., but the lines are so blurred these days between sample and vinyl based tracks and stuff produced by more traditional means, there needs to be another separate way of describing what the non-instrument playing music-producing artists do. I think it belittles both the (for want of a better description) traditional musicians AND the new breed of music generators to lump them all in together under the term `musician`. We are all hopefully music makers but not necessarily all accurately described as musicians.

Unfortunately, most `new` musicians think they can sweep away all objections by using terms like `old fart`, etc., but as with all things, reasoned arguments are usually more use than invective. Tell me why turntablists should JUST be called musicians with no other modifier. Make the explanation good and cogent and you might convince me. Call me an old fart and you are wasting your breath and my time.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote noiseconjecture:

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You fears are misguided Ivan SC

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Sorry but you are soooo wrong on this bit. I used to gig in my local area four or five nights a week without playing any pubs and without leaving the centre of the town. This was in the early and mid sixties, when local bands still played mostly covers of current chart material.
As the idea that bands ought to write and play all their own material became popular and the concept of twenty minute funky jams being creative (!!) came into existence, so the average punter stopped being interested in what the local muso`s were doing and looked fro something else. Lo and behold, the youth clubs that couldn`1t afford a live band had started playing records instead and from that humble beginning came the mobile DJ boom and with it the death of the majority of live music outlets. You really had to be there at the time to know how pathetically small the live scene is nowadays by comparison. I hope you have noticed that I place the blame here squarely in the hands of the gigging musicians of the time.

From the late sixties to the early seventies, live music as it had traditionally always been right back to and beyond the wartime dance band era almost completely disappeared.

Disco`s and their current counterparts have survived as a live experience for all the reasons given earlier in this thread, a dance gig IS an experience and generally easily repeatable because the inszpirational component is supplied by the DJ`s skill, not the playing ability and `on the night` mood of several co-operating musicians, most of whom have little or no interest in crowd reaction.

So please do not misunderstand me,I am not saying that DJ`s whether scratch or `I just put records on` are to blame for this situation, simply that they are not that relevant to me in terms of what they do contributing to the overall available pool of original musical material. A remix is still a remix and a bloke playing bass lines using a recording of a cello is still a party piece, rather than a meaningful performance, as were all those shite 20 minute solo`s in the old days.

NC what you need to remind yourself of, is that you are of necessity musicianly because you have an understanding of music based on learning an instrument. This is what makes you a musician in my book. Not what you do with remixes.

If your only skills were related to mixing and scratching, I would have a hard time equating your abilities and experience with those required to qualify for the title musician.

Oh and FWIW when you play a musical saw or other similar `wierd` instrument, let`s not forget that you are still generating the wave form from scratch, not just finding it oir `borrowing` it. Come to think of it, I`m not that keen on synths, either......

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

ow and noiseconjecture, .
Perhaps you could cover my point about what the DJ`s are going to use once all the musicians who actually play instruments have quit playing and there is nothing new to scratch, sample, etc.? I can just imagine Radio Free Hereward in 2106 playing yet another rehash of that drum part from Sex Machine skillfully mixed in with the bass hook from Africa, with vocal snippets from various Enya compositions floated tastefully over the top....

Just lifted this from my earlier post, since you have both apparently ignored my question, unless I really am losing it on my old age and missed your response. Ivan

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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its taking a long old time, but gradually the dinosaurs who stalk this forum are finding less and less nourishment in their grazing

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(falling about laughing) Well I guess that really told US then, didn`t it?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

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With you there, George. First millionaire in the Pink Floyd setup was.... Steve O`Rourke. Why?

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The Management - but IvanSC that's not always the senario

As for Pink Floyd, as you will read in a future column, they're a major part of the problem. Can you imagine in 1966 the music press being dominated by stories of Al Jolson

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Big George