Quote James Perrett:

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I'm sorry that you took my posting in that way Jeraldo - I was only trying to point out a technical fact and was in no way trying to contradict any of your experience. In fact, my experience with the Tandy mics has been similar to yours but I've also used various cheap electret mics that sounded great at low levels but would distort at high levels.

Cheers

James.

---

Thanks, James. I'm sorry my reply was a bit (?) on the testy side. And I do agree completely, if the very first thing after the capsule is not performing, nothing else will either. And then everything else in descending order. I will resolve to be nicer.

You have my apologies!

Jeraldo

I picked up an H4 at the weekend. First thoughts :

Really impressed with the internal mics on field recordings, and even on a bit of voice recording - although a mono mic is almost always going to be more appropriate for straight voice stuff.

My SM57s and Rode NT5s both sound really nice through the XLR inputs. Guitar and bass both sound totally serviceable through the onboard mic models. Tuner and metronome are both an incredibly useful addition.

Am I right in thinking that using 4 track mode is the only way to record a true mono signal?

Band practice on Thursday, so will give that a shot then.

Quote ant_chapman:

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Am I right in thinking that using 4 track mode is the only way to record a true mono signal?

Band practice on Thursday, so will give that a shot then.

---

In stereo mode the H4 will always record a stereo track but you could consider that to be 2 mono tracks.....it's easy enough to discard L or R once the recording is transfered to your computer. But yes, it seems that 4-track mode is the only way you can record a single track. Which restricts you to 44.1/16 of course.

I recorded our band rehearsal last Thursday and the other guys took the mickey somewhat when they saw my new "electric shaver". However, once they heard a few tracks back through my 7509 cans they were impressed.

Friday night I recorded a pub gig we did. We didn't have time for a sound check and I just stuck the thing on a tripod in a corner (for safety) and pointed it at the band. The H4 coped admirably even though we played very loud. It would have benefited from being in a better position but that wasn't practical given the lack of prep time, the pub being packed and lot of bods dancing everywhere. It was a bloody good gig, actually, and it's all captured in 24 bit stereo.

I haven't tried any ext mics yet but that should be interesting. Well worth £229 incl delivery!

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

Quote Shivanand:

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Friday night I recorded a pub gig we did. We didn't have time for a sound check and I just stuck the thing on a tripod in a corner (for safety) and pointed it at the band. The H4 coped admirably even though we played very loud.

... Well worth £229 incl delivery!

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Hi Shivanand - did you get any distortion when recording the band?

And £229 incl delivery sounds great - may I know which shop gives that price so I can get one too?

Cheers

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www.youtube.com/leonardngmusic

Quote Len:

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Hi Shivanand - did you get any distortion when recording the band?

And £229 incl delivery sounds great - may I know which shop gives that price so I can get one too?

Cheers

---

The recording was, IMO, quite remarkable for such an inexpensive device. The built in mics will, I am sure, have introduced some distortion but examination of the 24 bit waveform in Audition showed no evidence of clipping.

I don't know if I should mention the name of the shop where I bought the device here but I'll PM you.

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

In the SOS review of the new R 9, the reviewer seems quite happy with its ability to record a rock band rehearsal 'at full tilt'. The R9 also has SPDIF output which, correct me if I'm wrong, the Zoom doesn't? I'd be plumping for the Zoom but for this, but the R9 review certainly suggests it can cope with the problems discusssed here. Any experiences yet?

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Quote simonplent:

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In the SOS review of the new R 9, the reviewer seems quite happy with its ability to record a rock band rehearsal 'at full tilt'. The R9 also has SPDIF output which, correct me if I'm wrong, the Zoom doesn't? I'd be plumping for the Zoom but for this, but the R9 review certainly suggests it can cope with the problems discusssed here. Any experiences yet?

---

Will be giving the H4 a go at a rehearsal tomorrow night - although I'm not sure how representative it will be as the band is very noisy, and the room is very small.

The R9 is about £70 more expensive than the H4, and doesn't (iirc) have the XLR / Jack inputs, 4 track mode, and some of the other bells and whistles. It's possible that it's more resilient to high SPL signals, but the extra stuff makes the H4 the ideal choice for me.

No the H4 doesn't have S/PDIF but that's not an issue for me as the USB and removable SD card is much more useful.

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

Quote simonplent:

---

In the SOS review of the new R 9, the reviewer seems quite happy with its ability to record a rock band rehearsal 'at full tilt'. The R9 also has SPDIF output which, correct me if I'm wrong, the Zoom doesn't? I'd be plumping for the Zoom but for this, but the R9 review certainly suggests it can cope with the problems discusssed here. Any experiences yet?

---

As a previous poster commented, why do you need an SPDIF output when you can transfer your recordings to any USB equipped computer?

As for the 'rock band at full tilt' thing, I think its a shame that my H4 can't cope with Eddie's twin 4x12s but not a disaster. The recording is serviceable, and I could always use my trusty PZMs if I wanted better quality.

In the meantime, I've been using it as an N-track recorder and guitar practice tool, which you can't do with the R9 afaik.

Check out my first demo, recorded entirely with the H4.
http://forums.keyfax.com/user-files/290717-junkyard%20blues%20mix%20with%2 0drums.mp3
That's my daughter on slide guitar!

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Richard Graham:

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Check out my first demo, recorded entirely with the H4.
http://forums.keyfax.com/user-files/290719-junkyard%20blues%20just%20the%2 0drums.mp3
That's my daughter on slide guitar!

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I think you've linked to the drums-only version, actually

Quote Richard Graham:

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As a previous poster commented, why do you need an SPDIF output when you can transfer your recordings to any USB equipped computer?

---

Quite simply because my main recorder (DPS16) doesn't have USB in! (Steam driven I know, but I love it ... We're not all working on computers yet, you know!

Presumably you could stil use the R 9 as an a/d interface with your computer in the same way as the Zoom though, with an external mixer for phantom power etc?ie not for recording onto, just for using as a portable interface with a laptop or something?

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Quote ant_chapman:

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I think you've linked to the drums-only version, actually

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Yes, you are quite right, what a dumb-ass.
I've corrected it now.
http://forums.keyfax.com/user-files/290717-junkyard%20blues%20mix%20with%2 0drums.mp3

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote simonplent:

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Quote Richard Graham:

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As a previous poster commented, why do you need an SPDIF output when you can transfer your recordings to any USB equipped computer?

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Quite simply because my main recorder (DPS16) doesn't have USB in! (Steam driven I know, but I love it ... We're not all working on computers yet, you know!

Presumably you could stil use the R 9 as an a/d interface with your computer in the same way as the Zoom though, with an external mixer for phantom power etc?ie not for recording onto, just for using as a portable interface with a laptop or something?

---

I dont think you can use the R9 as an audio interface, but I could be wrong. But if you don't have a computer, what do you need a USB audio interface for?

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I do have a couple actually but I don't use them for multitrack recording currently so I don't have a d/a usb interface, only midi/usb. So the Swiss Army Knife of recording technology might tempt me to give proper DAW recording a go without forking out for additional kit. No idea whether the R9 can function like this, the website is a little light on detail and you can't download the manual without registering and all that palaver. But I may have to do it to find out what it can do apart from add reverb (yawn!)

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Here's what I do. I avoid using the PC at all during the recording process (which is when I want to just bang stuff down without fussing or staring at a screen or dealing with configuration issues, latency etc).

Record four tracks on the H4, and bounce to stereo. Record on the two spares, and bounce again. Repeat until you have as many tracks as you want. Then use the USB connection to pull all the original recorded tracks (not the bounces) in perfect sync, into Cubase LE. Edit, mix and add effects at leisure.

For getting ideas down, it's so much better than recording with a PC. And I can do it almost anywhere in the house.

So far, the H4's '4-track with input effects' mode is the thing I like most about it. I've only ever worked with cassette 4-tracks or PC-based setups until now.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Yes, sounds great. I think it'd be great to produce a whole album on something like this and really force yourself to make some upfront decisions in the old-fashioned way. If it didn't have the virtual tracks you'd really have to put a serious producer/arranger hat on right at the start.

You can forward bounce four down to two can you? That's pretty fab. I was assuming you had to use it like a real old four track with just four active tracks plus virtuals. I may just have to buy one and do my transfers via the analog outs.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Quote simonplent:

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Yes, sounds great. I think it'd be great to produce a whole album on something like this and really force yourself to make some upfront decisions in the old-fashioned way. If it didn't have the virtual tracks you'd really have to put a serious producer/arranger hat on right at the start.

You can forward bounce four down to two can you? That's pretty fab. I was assuming you had to use it like a real old four track with just four active tracks plus virtuals. I may just have to buy one and do my transfers via the analog outs.

---

When recording, you only have four tracks to play with. Once they are full, you'll need to bounce them down (in mono or stereo), and load the bounced track into one or two of your four tracks. You'll then have two or three more tracks to overdub onto, playing along with the bounce. So far, so much like a cassette 4-track. Keep doing this until all your tracks are down.

But here's the thing. You don't have to worry about how your bounced tracks are mixed (except insofar as you want to overdub using them as a guide). You don't have to worry about squeaks and breaths between notes. You just keeping bouncing (with pristine quality, since its all handled mathematically inside the H4), and adding tracks. The bouncing is handled 'off-line' and usually takes about as long as it would in real-time: you can't tweak levels or panning during the bounce (but you can tweak them to taste before you bounce). This is actually very liberating, because you only interrupt the flow of recording for as long as it takes for the bounce to happen: I usually set up the next instrument during this time. Bounce and overdub, bounce and overdub.

When you're finished recording, all of your original recorded tracks are there, *seperately*, on the memory card, with first-generation quality. Import them to Cubase LE and they will run in perfect sync. The only thing you need to get right to begin with is (a) the sound and (b) your playing. Mixing and editing decisions can come later. This is the way it should be, I think!

I'm sorry if this all seems a bit old hat to some of you, but for me, this way of working is perfect.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Richard Graham:

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When recording, you only have four tracks to play with. Once they are full, you'll need to bounce them down (in mono or stereo), and load the bounced track into one or two of your four tracks. You'll then have two or three more tracks to overdub onto, playing along with the bounce. So far, so much like a cassette 4-track.

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Well, no, not at all like a cassette 4 track (or indeed my digital 16 track) actually. You can't fill four (or 16) tracks on a cassette and then bounce to virtual tracks or bounce forward. On cassette or tape (or my Akai) you have to keep one or two tracks free to bounce to all the time. Clever little machine, that Zoom chappy!

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

PS Just found this: http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/news/news147/index.php

That's the trouble with buying new digital stuff isn't it! It's never quite finished.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Quote simonplent:

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PS Just found this: http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/news/news147/index.php

That's the trouble with buying new digital stuff isn't it! It's never quite finished.

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That link doesn't work for me. What's the gist?

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Yes I saw that. Doubt I'll ever want to record MP3s but I'll get the upgrade anyway when it appears.

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

Quote simonplent:

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Quote Richard Graham:

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When recording, you only have four tracks to play with. Once they are full, you'll need to bounce them down (in mono or stereo), and load the bounced track into one or two of your four tracks. You'll then have two or three more tracks to overdub onto, playing along with the bounce. So far, so much like a cassette 4-track.

---

Well, no, not at all like a cassette 4 track (or indeed my digital 16 track) actually. You can't fill four (or 16) tracks on a cassette and then bounce to virtual tracks or bounce forward. On cassette or tape (or my Akai) you have to keep one or two tracks free to bounce to all the time. Clever little machine, that Zoom chappy!

---

What I used to do back in the day was record four tracks on an X-15 with Dolby B and then mix down to a good quality stereo hi-fi cassette deck via my little Realistic 6:2 mixer (sounds laughable now, I know!) Pop the tape back in the X-15 and record two more tracks, and do the final mixdown back onto the hifi deck. So working with the Zoom is quite similar in a way. Fill up the tracks, bounce to stereo, and load the bounced track back into the 4-track before adding overdubs. Plus ca change!

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I think I fall on the positive side of the whole firmware upgrade debate. As it stands, the H4 works just fine. I can't say I'll ever need to record at 256kbps VBR, so this issue isn't a problem for me. But subsequent firmware updates might add very useful features or refinements.

Top of my personal wishlist is the ability to record mono files from a single XLR input without having to use 4-track mode. No idea if they'll add it, but at least it's possible.

Of course, if Zoom had released the H4 in a less-than-working state, and tried a bit of damage control via FW updates, then I wouldn't have been happy at all. I'm glad to say this isn't the case.

I used to have an X-15!!! Eeee, them were the days (wipes nostalgic tear from eye!). I also had some diabolical analog drum machine that I can't even remember the name of, maybe an early Dr Rhythm or something? It was blue (I think) with a footprint about the size of a CD.

Oh, back to the question, the Zoom link was about a software fault when recording to MP3. There seems to be a software update you can download to sort it. Try going to Zoom.jp and working your way through to it.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Quote ant_chapman:

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I think I fall on the positive side of the whole firmware upgrade debate. As it stands, the H4 works just fine. I can't say I'll ever need to record at 256kbps VBR, so this issue isn't a problem for me. But subsequent firmware updates might add very useful features or refinements.

Top of my personal wishlist is the ability to record mono files from a single XLR input without having to use 4-track mode. No idea if they'll add it, but at least it's possible.

Of course, if Zoom had released the H4 in a less-than-working state, and tried a bit of damage control via FW updates, then I wouldn't have been happy at all. I'm glad to say this isn't the case.

---

I totally agree with you about the firmware. The H4 works just fine as it is, but I can think of things that could be possibly added using firmware updates: the ability to split the DSP between the two inputs would be most useful (a different amp sim on each instead of an amp sim followed by an effect on both), or else pile all the DSP power into a super amp-sim or reverb, etc (not that the effects are bad as they stand, actually). Or what about the ability to record 'dry' but monitor with FX, and then write back a track with FX added while keeping the dry version?

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I think it's a great machine but a larger display and a hardware input level control would be nice.

I don't expect these as a f/w upgrade though.....

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

So tonight I took the H4 to rehearsal. And I'm blown away with the results. I put the built in mics to the "L" gain setting, and tried my best to place the unit sympathetically (on a tripod, incidentally, which worked really well). I used the PSU - no idea if this gives better performance than batteries in this situation.

The internal mics held up really well in a tiny room with a noisy band.

If I get a chance over the weekend, I'll post up some little clips. Also want to post some voice clips so people can hear what the H4 sounds like with the internal mics, an SM57 and a Rode NT5.

I'm guessing that using the PSU has made all the difference: 9V of power to the electrets instead of just 3V from 2AA batteries maybe?

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote ant_chapman:

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So tonight I took the H4 to rehearsal. And I'm blown away with the results. I put the built in mics to the "L" gain setting, and tried my best to place the unit sympathetically (on a tripod, incidentally, which worked really well). I used the PSU - no idea if this gives better performance than batteries in this situation.

The internal mics held up really well in a tiny room with a noisy band.

If I get a chance over the weekend, I'll post up some little clips. Also want to post some voice clips so people can hear what the H4 sounds like with the internal mics, an SM57 and a Rode NT5.

---

Ant, some clips would really be appreciated! I am glad you are happy with the unit. There really is no excuse for me not to go and get one now

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www.youtube.com/leonardngmusic

Hello Richard Graham:

I think you should write or call Zoom, point them to this forum, and make sure they listen to your file. They'd be nuts not to send you on a promo tour.

Anyway, thanks for posting that file and your comments.

Hi all,

As promised, some Zoom H4 recording clips (all originally recorded as 16bit .wav - converted to 192kbps mp3 with Audacity and LAME) :

Short clip of a band rehearsal
Voice clip using internal mics
Voice clip using Rode NT5
Voice clip using SM57

Apologies for the plosives - I don't have a pop shield at home. Also, apologies for the SM57 clip being so short. I think I accidentally discarded half of it in some hurried editing.

Thanks

Hi ant-well, you can take the tour as well.

Question: On "short clip of band rehearsal", is this solely acoustically recorded with the Zoom's own mics?

Impressive, however it was done.

Quote Jeraldo:

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Question: On "short clip of band rehearsal", is this solely acoustically recorded with the Zoom's own mics?

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Oops - forgot to tag it. Yeah, it was done with the on-board mics.

So, after hearing the recent clips posted, it seems there is not problem with high SPLs and distortion. Perhaps the appropriate senitivity switches were not set correctly. There are separate switches for the on board mics and the line/mic XLR combo inputs. For those who are interested, the product manual for the H4 is available at:

http://www.samsontech.com/products/relatedDocs/H4_manual.pdf

Quote Jeraldo:

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So, after hearing the recent clips posted, it seems there is not problem with high SPLs and distortion. Perhaps the appropriate senitivity switches were not set correctly.

---

Not so, Jeraldo. The switch on my H4 was set absolutely correctly, i.e. at the lowest setting.

Either my band is louder, or (more likely), using the power supply rather than batteries gives an un-distorted sound, or (possibly) my H4 isn't working properly.

P.S. Thanks for the positive comments about the demo!

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Richard Graham:

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or (more likely), using the power supply rather than batteries gives an un-distorted sound

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I think this is probably the most likely explanation.

The clip I uploaded was recorded with the mic gain switch set to the lowest setting, and the input level reduced to around (iirc) 85 (100 is the default).

Quote ant_chapman:

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Quote Richard Graham:

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or (more likely), using the power supply rather than batteries gives an un-distorted sound

---

I think this is probably the most likely explanation.

The clip I uploaded was recorded with the mic gain switch set to the lowest setting, and the input level reduced to around (iirc) 85 (100 is the default).

---

Still, not really ideal, as a large part of the convenience aspect of the H4 is being able to put it anywhere without trailing wires, and not having to have a seperate power supply with you etc.

I've read in this or another thread that it's possible to modify battery powered devices to use higher voltages... what are the risks? And does anyone know why a device that accepts 9V from a power-supply, should only have 3 volts worth of batteries?

Does anyone think it would be possible to create a 9V battery pack that plugs into the PSU input on the H4? Justy an idea that popped into my head just now. Then, there wouldn't be any need to mod the H4, and I'd have thought it would be safer for the H4's circuits too.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Sorry - a bit late to the party here and just catching up with this thread...

Seeing that much of the discussion has focussed on how much volume the H4 can handle, can I just ask about general sensitivity for recording very low level sounds and general ambiences in the field? Is there any inherent noise and how much gain is available etc?

Thanks

Colin

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www.2b-media.co.uk

Quote cwillsher:

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Seeing that much of the discussion has focussed on how much volume the H4 can handle, can I just ask about general sensitivity for recording very low level sounds and general ambiences in the field? Is there any inherent noise and how much gain is available etc?

---

The H4 is excellent for easy sound snapshots. The mics perform very well at the H (highest) setting, and the result at 24 bit / 96 KHz is wonderful, like the "macro" setting on a digital camera.

However, there is a problem when recording at 44.1 and 48 KHz. There is an audible (and visible as a wave form in a DAW) periodic tone (corresponding to the blinking of the H4 access light) on all recordings made with battery power. (This tone may also be there at 24/96, but I cannot hear it.) There is no tone present when using the AC adapter.

Here are links to sample recordings:

1. access light tone 44.1.wav
http://www.box.net/public/xe7yvzpezb

2. access light tone 48.wav
http://www.box.net/public/sobave36ct

ZOOM is aware of this problem which is a design flaw on their analog circuit board (or so they told me). They have been very open about this problem which I find quite admirable in a company.

I do a lot of field recordings at high mic settings in low sound level situations. I so enjoy the convenience of the H4 that I will probably hang onto it despite this problem and will just record at 24/96.

Edited by Phillip (20/11/06 02:55 PM)

Maybe using a 9v battery pack would fix this problem too? After all, for most 'field' recordings, you are not likely to have a handy AC outlet (although you could record at 96kHz I guess!)

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.