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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: The real musiclover]
      #415934 - 03/02/07 01:35 PM
I’ve still got my old Alesis Microverb II and I still occasionally use it on tracks… and people have commented on how they especially liked the ‘verb. Just goes to prove: it ain’t what you got, it’s the way that you use it, and that’s what get results

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Tim.]
      #415941 - 03/02/07 01:52 PM

And it's all about the end result!

Gear lust should be a crime too.


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Tachikoma...[taipei]



Joined: 14/12/06
Posts: 37
Loc: Taipei City, Ximen District
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #416030 - 03/02/07 05:16 PM
... just like software lust, right?

Imagine the software/hardware debate as it refers to the following items;

1. the compass (originally used as a divination device by chinese taoists, now used as a navigation tool)

2. the telescope (pre- and post-galileo)

3. the ionian mode (pre- and post- pythagoras)


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Dameo



Joined: 08/10/05
Posts: 150
Loc: sheffield.
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #416344 - 04/02/07 01:43 PM
LoL,
o-no not another cracked software debate,
i think there is only one way to look at this issue,
on one side we have people who are for it and the other side people who are against it.

1 - reasons against it, people should be paid for their work, also much time is spent in development,small software makers struggle to make money.

2 - reasons for it - it has a levelling effect and allows people without money to make music with the same tools as wealthy people, also people like to get something for free you are supposed to buy.

my thoughts on the subject are that the two side's of the argument are not possible to resolve,the person who takes the moralist stance pays for all their software and is annoyed by the others use of the tools without contribution.

The person who uses cracked software does not see it as wrong as they may have grown up swapping software and just see's it as normal and is against the person who is attacking thier views/actions.To see as wrong the behavour of maybe a whole life is not an easy thing.

Software piracy does hurt the company who produces the software this is true,but if something is there and it can be used to create music someone might enjoy is it not a crime to not create that music due to financial problems or society's view imposed ?.
But If you want to keep using the software you have to support the producers otherwise they will stop making it.

I can see both sides,You find that it is better to educate people in how they should behave,but it will allways be imposing our views on the others.

Software piracy is against the law,thats the only thing for it and against it,Do people care enough to stop doing it,do we trust the people who make the law?.

we are all musicians here ,we make music for pleasure or profit,we should concentrate on the music and our own actions rather than judging other people's.Unless of course we are the producers of software then it is our business to complain.

One way to stop people copying stuff is to have maybe a rental of software from the website where you could be in touch with the producers as people,it would be much harder to justify if the software's were a lot cheaper for rental. I bet not many people would use without paying if they could interact with the authors.


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Hol



Joined: 05/02/06
Posts: 293
Loc: England
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #416551 - 05/02/07 02:46 AM
I was thinking about this the other day as a result of reading this thread - it's interesting, this whole 'try before buy' mentality of cracked software. Even if this *was* the reason most people who use cracked software *do* (very unlikely) although really when it comes down to it, it's like this. Hackers like breaking copy protection, it's how they get their kicks. Some people like using £600 worth of music software for free (not hard to see why, really, is it).

But one of the arguments that routinely gets trotted out is "I might not like it/I might be s*it at it/So why should I pay top-whack for a program that I might never use again?"

Well, same as the guitar really, isn't it. Have to take that risk, don't you. Except you can *rent* a guitar, although I have no idea how much this costs or at what point it would have been cheaper to just buy the thing outright in the first place. Can't really do that with (for example) Cubase, can you . . . . for pretty obvious reasons!!

Maybe there's a gap in the market for an enterprising someone! DAW rental . . . .

/to see the bank manager . . .

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #416674 - 05/02/07 01:40 PM
I'm with Apefist and Dameo. Although my experience of buying legit software is proving frustrating.

I'm 'morally upgrading' my cracked Guitar Rig 2, FM7 and B4, by buying Guitar Combos and Xpress Keyboards. Am I mad?

So far, I've paid for the software and it has taken well over a week for half of it to be sent to me (I paid for next day delivery). The other half I will get God knows when. In the meantime I am stuck with demo versions, which I can't use for more than 30 minutes and which I can't save my presets on.

I also specified that I wanted it sent to my work address, so I didn't have to go round the houses to a delivery depot, thus eating up a good chunk of my precious free time on the weekend- or justify my purchases to her indoors ("what do you need that for? It cost how much!?"). It has been posted to my house, nobody was in, and my wife has found the delivery note. Great.

When I downloaded my illegal Warez versions I got fully-featured software delivered direct to my computer at no cost to myself or to the environment.

Proof if any was needed that it doesn't pay to be honest. I am grinding my teeth, and considering sending it back. I'm sure I can live without it after all.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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web01169



Joined: 26/09/04
Posts: 25
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: James Perrett]
      #416881 - 05/02/07 09:34 PM
it's been awile since i've posted.....but anyways....if you are dumb enough to open your post with " i have a problem with my cracked software", then you deserve to be ban'd. not for having the cracked software, but for admitting it. thats like stealing a car and driving it straight to the police station and saying im having trouble with this stolen car. but for the people who dont like the idea of others using cracked software, and this is just my opinion. simply dont answer the post.


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: web01169]
      #417013 - 06/02/07 09:55 AM
Quote web01169:

it's been awile since i've posted.....but anyways....if you are dumb enough to open your post with " i have a problem with my cracked software", then you deserve to be ban'd. not for having the cracked software, but for admitting it. thats like stealing a car and driving it straight to the police station and saying im having trouble with this stolen car. but for the people who dont like the idea of others using cracked software, and this is just my opinion. simply dont answer the post.




I think you may be missing the point of this thread! And SOS are not the police, they are more like someone's Dad. Or a priest.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9349
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417103 - 06/02/07 01:03 PM


--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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bardo



Joined: 06/02/07
Posts: 7
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Zukan]
      #417187 - 06/02/07 03:29 PM
Hello all, i'm new here

Just wanted to add my grain of salt :

I think this issue is often overrated. I mean, I almost never buy software, however i'm not stealing anyone.
I, as many others, do music as an entertainment. I've had in the past a directory with *lots* of $500 or more plugins, and used them on my songs. But i only did it because they were "freely available".
If pirating those things was not possible then i wouldn't use them, period. I'd use free, and probably crappy alternatives. No way i'm going to spend $500 on a software reverb plugin.
I suspect that most enthousiats are one the same line, unless they are filthy rich...

So the only difference it would do if i was obliged to pay for music software is that my songs would sound even more crappy. Nobody wins, i and lots of enthusiats lose.

The people who would pay for this stuff (studios, etc) probably already do, because they know they'll be into a huge legal [ ****** ] if they have an audit.

So my point is that morally, i don't steal anything to anyone, i just use it because it's here.

I could say the same thing about music btw, it drives me crazy when i hear majors crying because they've calculated that people downloaded $whatever worth of music, so they losed $whatever.
I download lots of music because it's free and i can test new things without fearing of having a bad surprise, there is no way i would buy even 1% of what i download. And those 1% i generally end up buying them for friends birthdays or such things. Music that i would'nt even know about if i hadn't downloaded it in the first place...


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: bardo]
      #417203 - 06/02/07 03:57 PM
Alright Bardo, I have to agree with everything you say, but there is another side to it.

If you were a programmer, and your job was to write code for VST instruments, and your ability to pay the mortgage depended on your producing good, saleable code, and you did just that and produced a great-sounding product, and then a load of people downloaded that product for free, and used it a lot, and your company didn't sell enough copies and went bust, and you lost your job, and you couldn't pay the mortgage and lost your house because a bunch of freeloaders were too tight-fisted to actually pay for something good which they use... how would you feel?

Looked at another way, what if instead of being paid for whatever it is you do in your day job, the people who pay your wages decide that your skill and workmanship, time and labour is actually worthless, and not worth paying for, but they continue to use you anyway, all the while complaining about the odd mistake you make, and saying that if you weren't around they'd just get some cheap labour in, which wouldn't be as good, but in the end they are not really bothered about having something good after all.

Would that be 'moral'?


--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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A M Littley



Joined: 21/01/07
Posts: 15
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417216 - 06/02/07 04:21 PM
Hi,
This is a really interesting thread that's managed to reference quite a few external issues as well as a few things I'd like to pass comment on.
Firstly, unless discontinued software is released to public domain using a cracked version remains theft. Whether you use cracked software or not, deep down you know it's theft and that's that. Some discontinued software gets released as freeware and even occasionally as open source, but other than that it remains the property of the copyright holder. When the CBM Amiga died we lost a lot of good software that was never released to public domain but that's life.

Secondly was a comment about Fruityloops by Imageline and their demos. The reason that their demo versions are so short lived is that they are continually upgrading their products, they have issues with their registry keys and their installers from time to time but once you have purchased a product you get free updates or the life of that product and you don't have to pay extra for a glorified bug fix, quite a laudable business ethos.

Thirdly was a reference to Open office, I can only guess that you were running it under windows, for which it needs extra resources to allow it to run. Try it under linux and you will see an example of what open source software can be like, outstanding considering it's free.

Then finally there are the bugs in the expensive commercial software. Inexcusable but when you think of the platform its written for you can understand it. Even Microsoft can't write bug free software for its own software, there are just too many interdependencies to account for. Then they have to rely on system resources that may themselves be flawed and communicate with any number of different peripherals or interfaces and satisfy our ever increasing appetite for bells and whistles. All I can say is that if you don't like the companies attitude to customers or are unhappy with the product, DON'T BUY IT. In Europe a EULA does not override a consumers rights, or so we are told, so if your system meets the stated requirements of the package and the software does not function as stated, return it and demand your money back. In the mean time we should all start a movement against oppressive EULAs and demand that they are printed in full on the outside of all packages.


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A M Littley



Joined: 21/01/07
Posts: 15
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417237 - 06/02/07 04:46 PM
Just read my post and it sounded like I was waffling.

Why the bit about EULAs?
Well they are the part that by opening or installing the software you have effectively signed away your right to complain about any bugs, get any help with the software should it be faulty or even wreck your system and in some cases sign away the privacy and integrity of your system and all the date on it. If you read some of them you'll have a laugh!!!

Sales of software seems to be a rule unto itself, they can sell you C**P, invade your privacy and then decide that you haven't actually bought their software at all so it's not yours, its theirs and you can't sell it on. All with seemingly total impunity.

When you look at it that way, there is little wonder that there are pirates who crack and distribute software.

Both software companies and users should think about their morals and act with their own conscience.

Now I know that you've heard enough from me.

Bye!!


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: A M Littley]
      #417245 - 06/02/07 05:01 PM
I don't think it's 'theft' to use cracked software, because in doing so, nobody has been 'permanently deprived' of anything, unless in the first instance you intended to buy that software, but then decided to download it instead. This is hardly ever the case, as most people using cracked software would never pay £200-£300 for something they can get for nowt!

So whatever the law says, it isn't 'theft', in the common sense of the word: in this respect,the law is an ass, as the concept of stealing is out-dated for this application. If you steal something from someone, the owner no longer has it... that's just common sense. You can't be a thief without stealing something *from* someone. If I 'stole' your telly by making a perfect copy of it in my own living room, it wouldn't be theft. It would be copying. Because you still have your telly. The fact that you worked hard to have that telly (or even built it yourself), and I just made a copy by pushing a magic button, doesn't make it theft, any more than some people having tellys they didn't work to aquire, is 'stealing' from people who had to work hard and scrimp and save to get them...

That isn't to say using cracked software isn't morally wrong: it's just that calling it 'theft' really overstates the case, and distorts the argument.

Just an opinion.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: bardo]
      #417246 - 06/02/07 05:02 PM
Quote bardo:

Hello all, i'm new here



And you ain't gonna make it past your two posts at this rate mate.

Quote bardo:

however i'm not stealing anyone.



You might not be stealing something 'physically' but you *are* depriving someone, somewhere of income that is rightly theirs. In doing that, you affect that person's ability to pay rent/mortgage/bills, put food on the table, whatever. Same thing! That might sound a bit melodramatic but it's the reality. In the case of software created by a larger manufacturer, the bottom line is that if they are not profitable they will fire their workers (leaving them totally unable to pay rent/mortgage/bills), they will fire support staff (meaning the legitimate owners cannot get support) and they will not invest in future products. It will also have ramifications right down the line that affects their distributors and their dealers, etc..

Quote bardo:

I, as many others, do music as an entertainment.



So what? People do Scuba diving "as an entertainment" but pay for their diving equipment. People enjoy DIY but don't expect a hammer and nails for free

Quote bardo:

I've had in the past a directory with *lots* of $500 or more plugins, and used them on my songs. But i only did it because they were "freely available".



And in doing so, perpetuated the piracy spiral.

Quote bardo:

If pirating those things was not possible then i wouldn't use them, period. I'd use free, and probably crappy alternatives. No way i'm going to spend $500 on a software reverb plugin.



Your choice but if the piracy situation continues, the ultimate outcome will be that the ONLY thing you will have is free crap because the serious developers will just give up!

Quote bardo:

I suspect that most enthousiats are one the same line



And that makes it right does it? No - it's why the industry is in a bit of mess!

Quote bardo:

So the only difference it would do if i was obliged to pay for music software is that my songs would sound even more crappy.



Dunno how you reach that conclusion. Your songs would be just as crappy but at least you would have legally paid for the software to record them with and developer will be able to support that product (and you if you have any problems) as well as improving the product and introducing new features.

Quote bardo:

Nobody wins, i and lots of enthusiats lose.



What the hell makes you think 'enthusiasts' are entitled to something for free?

Quote bardo:

The people who would pay for this stuff (studios, etc) probably already do, because they know they'll be into a huge legal [ ****** ] if they have an audit.



No - because it is the proper and legal way to conduct business. I dunno if you have noticed, but this whole thing of PAYING for something has been around for centuries - it's kinda the way things work. You want something, you pay for it; you can't afford it, you don't buy it. Fairly simple.

Quote bardo:

So my point is that morally, i don't steal anything to anyone, i just use it because it's here.



You have no morals. As I have said, you are not stealing anything 'physically' but you ar depriving someone (maybe many people) of an income.

I am sure you wouldn't be very happy if every week someone was taking money from your pay packet.

It strikes me that, like a lot of people, you are indulging in a hobby you cannot afford. Someone wanting to be a guitarist doesn't steal a guitar - he has to BUY it. If you can't afford it, tough [ ****** ]! That's life! Save up for it, take out a loan, sell something to fund the purchase, whatever - or give up the notion.

Just because you are an 'enthusiast' does NOT give you any entitlement to anything for free and does not give you the right or justification to exploit someone's work without due payment to that person.

You might think it's all harmless but as a developer currently chasing a website that is making my stuff available for free download, piracy and people like yourself are a real threat to my legitimate livelihood. I depend on sales of my products to pay my mortgage, bills, put food on the table, invest in future products, provide support for legitimate users and so on - and some little gobshite thinks it's fine to get it for free coz he can't afford it and is only an enthusiast.

If the mods are watching this, please don't delete this tosser's post - it is a testament to the attitude so prevalent in this industry... "I am just an enthusiast and can't afford to pay for software so it's morally ok to steal software". Feck right off!



Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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bardo



Joined: 06/02/07
Posts: 7
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417253 - 06/02/07 05:11 PM
Quote:

If you were a programmer, and your job was to write code for VST instruments, and your ability to pay the mortgage depended on your producing good, saleable code, and you did just that and produced a great-sounding product, and then a load of people downloaded that product for free, and used it a lot, and your company didn't sell enough copies and went bust, and you lost your job, and you couldn't pay the mortgage and lost your house because a bunch of freeloaders were too tight-fisted to actually pay for something good which they use... how would you feel?




Stupid because i didn't take into account the realities of this market ? It's not like software piracy is a new fact, it's always been a constant in the software industry since at least the 8-bits era. And i'm a software programmer btw, i know how hard it is to make good, polished software, and how nobody understands the amount of work it takes.

What i mean is that they know from the beginning they will be pirated by amateurs, they don't target them at all anyway. They target professionals, who have the money and respect the law. I'd even venture to say that they don't mind being pirated by amateurs because such amateurs might end up as an engineer in a studio one of those days and decide which plugins the studio should buy...
It's exactly like say, Oracle. Do you seriously think that they would mind if i pirated their $3M or whatever database to make a stupid music album database at home ? No, they'd probably be happy about it because it trains me on Oracle stuff, and I might be more succeptible to chose them at work after that...

Of course that argument won't stand if you talk about $30 plugins for instances, which i'd probably pirate anyway personally if i can. But that's because i'm a totally cheap, ammoral and evil person, i admit it


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bardo



Joined: 06/02/07
Posts: 7
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417264 - 06/02/07 05:28 PM
Quote:

Dunno how you reach that conclusion. Your songs would be just as crappy but at least you would have legally paid for the software to record them with and developer will be able to support that product (and you if you have any problems) as well as improving the product and introducing new features.





You didn't understand my post... I wouldn't pay for this software if i couldn't download it. That's the whole point...



Edited by bardo (06/02/07 05:30 PM)


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2429
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417267 - 06/02/07 05:45 PM
Quote hollowsun:


If the mods are watching this, please don't delete this tosser's post - it is a testament to the attitude so prevalent in this industry... "I am just an enthusiast and can't afford to pay for software so it's morally ok to steal software". Feck right off!


Steve




The really daft thing about this attitude is that there are excellent tools out there for free, you want something and cannot afford it, you got a few acceptable choices:

Save up for it.
Download a free implementation.
Download a compiler and toolchain and **write** an implementation (May require reading a few book first), hey maybe you could even sell copies of your version....
Talk your local politician into repealing copyright law as it applies to software.

As I say, 20 years ago, I would have killed for Csound, Ardour, Sox, Jamin, Bristol, Zyn, Hydrogen, Rosegarden, Audacity and the rest.

As to the big DB, IIRC, they do actually have a workstation demo available for free (IIRC limited to single processor), I never really looked into it, as Postgres is more then sufficient for my domestic DB needs.

Regards, Dan (Pissed off because FlexLM is playing silly buggers and stopping me getting any work done, this would not be necessary without freeloading slime like the poster above).

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9349
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417277 - 06/02/07 06:01 PM
Quote Richard Graham:

I don't think it's 'theft' to use cracked software, because in doing so, nobody has been 'permanently deprived' of anything, unless in the first instance you intended to buy that software, but then decided to download it instead. This is hardly ever the case, as most people using cracked software would never pay £200-£300 for something they can get for nowt!

So whatever the law says, it isn't 'theft', in the common sense of the word: in this respect,the law is an ass, as the concept of stealing is out-dated for this application. If you steal something from someone, the owner no longer has it... that's just common sense. You can't be a thief without stealing something *from* someone. If I 'stole' your telly by making a perfect copy of it in my own living room, it wouldn't be theft. It would be copying. Because you still have your telly. The fact that you worked hard to have that telly (or even built it yourself), and I just made a copy by pushing a magic button, doesn't make it theft, any more than some people having tellys they didn't work to aquire, is 'stealing' from people who had to work hard and scrimp and save to get them...

That isn't to say using cracked software isn't morally wrong: it's just that calling it 'theft' really overstates the case, and distorts the argument.

Just an opinion.




Richard, I understand your argument but it is highly flawed.
You are comparing theft of a single physical item from someone who owns it and makes no money from it and has contributed nothing towards the R&D of it and so on and comparing it to something that is exactly the opposite.

Let's look at this from the publishing point of view:

You take Michael Jackson's Thriller and P2P it across the net. You copy it and maybe even sell it (as I have recently found out re my products).

You have deprived Jacko of his earnings. That is quite simply theft. Even without getting into the intellectual side of the ownership argument, this still leaves the fact that Jacko has been deprived of earnings, be it actual or potential. In my book that equates to theft.
The publishers, the label and Jacko would chase you for loss of earnings.

Let's stay with your analogy about the word 'theft' being outdated and not relevant in this context.

Theft is simply a term that describes the taking of something without the owner's consent. That is what theft is, taking something without consent. In terms of DD or software, the owner has the right to create as many copies as possible. The theft of a single copy, be it real or potential, is still theft. The fact that the product is not bricks and mortar does not make it any less legitimate in qualifying it for the status of 'owned'.

Your analogy of the TV is a poor one as you have not put any criteria against it:
Did the person that the telly was stolen from invent it, did he spend acres of money in R&D, did he plan on selling it, how did you copy it etc?

Steve (Hollwsun) has made a good point and is in the same boat I am in.
I have my material continually pirated and P2P'd across torrent sites, P2P sites, Pm'd in forums etc.
I lose every single time someone downloads one of my products from these sources.
To me that is theft. Theft from my actual and potential earnings.
In the last month alone MCPS have been involved in contacting dozens of sites on my behalf to have my content removed.

Those who claim that the fact that someone's material is P2P'd across the planet makes for great advertising and these people will eventually find their way to the creator's site and buy more products are talking nonsense.

Steve, I am sure, will agree to this: we spend a great deal of money and time marketing our sites and profiles.
The people who steal outr material do not come to our sites and pay for it or buy something else. They check our product base and search for the cracked or pirated versions of it.
So, that argument is also flawed. Whether Bill gates has said it helps his cause or not makes no difference to people like Steve and I. We are not Bill Gates. We cannot afford to lose a dime let alone a market chunk of change.

I have not read a single argument on these pages that warrants me accepting any concept of it being right to take someone else's work, be it software, DD or anything else for that matter.

I also find the argument of being deprived of $500 plugins makes someone's music crappy utterly ridiculous. I know of home musicians/producers using FL and a few few plugins, working off a simple and cheap PC and making great music. So, the 'better gear makes me a better musician so I must have it for free' is both weak and insulting to those that do it by the legit method and still come up with great material.

If we then argue the fact that big multinational companies should create better software, because the cracks work better or the support or the... blah blah, and that makes it ok to steal their products, then we are only lying and trying to justify to ourselves that there exists a premise that makes it acceptable to steal, in whatever capacity and definition.
People who argue that these software should be perfect and not buggy and that is why they use the cracks (as they are receiving sub standard products) are simply lying. Don't buy from them. That's all there is to it.
You buy a car that performs poorly. You return it and get your money back and go and buy from a different manufacturer. You do not keep the car, not pay for it and continue to whinge about the manufacturer.

The next argument of 'I can't afford it'...well, I don't even think I need to rip that one apart either.

Deep down, everyone here, irrespective of which side of the fence they sit on, know full well that it is both legally wrong and ethically wrong to steal, irrespective of whether it's someone's wallet, idea, creation, TV or anything else.

Assassinating the term 'theft' is simply a way of justifying the actual act of performing it because it shows how weak an argument it is to classify and denegrade the terminology.

Call it what you like. Taking someone else's works and possible future earnings is plain wrong, on every level, and we do not need that type of destruction in this industry.

Too many good companies have gone down because of peoples' avarice and misconceptions about what is theft and what isn't.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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bardo



Joined: 06/02/07
Posts: 7
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417283 - 06/02/07 06:15 PM
Quote:

So whatever the law says, it isn't 'theft', in the common sense of the word: in this respect,the law is an ass, as the concept of stealing is out-dated for this application.




I believe most laws are now in fact quite clear on that topic :
It's generally not called theft anymore, but "copyright infrigment", which is a way better description.
Doesn't change the fact that it's illegal of course, but at least it doesn't assimilate the perpetuator as a burglar.

But U.S RIAA and others still like to call it theft because it's more shocking to be called a thief than an infriger so it makes a better DVD warning. Which as a matter of fact only the people who rent or buy legally will see, since the "copyright infrigers" will either see a divx or a DVD with this chapter removed.
And they want to add DRM on top of that, which again will only annoy their legitimate customers. Wow... Seriously, if DRM media does take off i predict a rise in piracy like never before.


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bardo



Joined: 06/02/07
Posts: 7
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: dmills]
      #417331 - 06/02/07 08:08 PM
Quote:

Regards, Dan (Pissed off because FlexLM is playing silly buggers and stopping me getting any work done, this would not be necessary without freeloading slime like the poster above).




The freeloading slime doesn't like to be judged and sumed up on 5 sentences. Look i'm a big supporter of the FSF. I've been using Free Software, helping develop it, documenting it, translating it for nearly 11 years, all on my free time.
I'd like to live in a GNU world without tools like flexml too, but i'm pragmatic enough to use the best tools I can have now.
I'd be happy to use free, copyrightless alternatives if they existed, but in my opininion they're not quite there yet.
And please don't tell me that i could download a GNU toolchain to program them myself, it's ridiculous. Audio programming is not in my area of expertize at all, and it requires very specific knowledge about acoustics, signal processing and things like that. Yeah i could probably do it after reading piles and piles of signal processing books and the like but i prefer to let those naturally interested in the subject do the work, and participate in my own specific area.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Zukan]
      #417344 - 06/02/07 08:33 PM
Quote Zukan:

Steve (Hollwsun) has made a good point and is in the same boat I am in.
I have my material continually pirated and P2P'd across torrent sites, P2P sites, Pm'd in forums etc.
I lose every single time someone downloads one of my products from these sources.
To me that is theft. Theft from my actual and potential earnings.



Yep. just because somebody didn't break into my house and physically take a CD-ROM from the premises does not mean that downloading a free copy is any different. It is theft and not just of income but intellectual property.

Quote Zukan:

Steve, I am sure, will agree to this: we spend a great deal of money and time marketing our sites and profiles.
The people who steal outr material do not come to our sites and pay for it or buy something else. They check our product base and search for the cracked or pirated versions of it.
So, that argument is also flawed. Whether Bill gates has said it helps his cause or not makes no difference to people like Steve and I. We are not Bill Gates. We cannot afford to lose a dime let alone a market chunk of change.



Yep!

Quote Zukan:

Call it what you like. Taking someone else's works and possible future earnings is plain wrong, on every level, and we do not need that type of destruction in this industry.



Absolutely. Piracy is not just dangerous to software developers but hardware too and many of the major manufacturers are having trouble selling their products as people who would once have bought an entry level product now just download shedloads of illegal software. One can argue that this democratises music making but that's a crock - it's just a thinly veiled excuse for justifying theft.

So some spotty 14-yr-old can't afford XYZ. Tough. I can't afford to keep hiring bloody solicitors to chase sites hosting my stuff illegally and quite frankly, due to piracy, I am not sure I can afford to remain in my current house so I might have to move my entire family, have my daughter change schools and 'downsize' to a smaller house in a worse area. Jeez, I know fellow developer colleagues who have lost everything - their house, their busines, sometimes their marriage because they invested everything in some sound library project or some software product only to have it ripped off a week after its release. I've also been involved in the development of other products where a company's financial projections are just destroyed overnight by some Russian hacker - three man-year's worth of work and a large financial committment down the drain in a single afternoon resulting in job losses and everything that entails.

Ultimately, unless we're very careful, we run the risk of being in a situation where developers don't develop any more and manufacturers stop manufacturing.

And that, I'm afraid, is the reality of piracy so please forgive me if I have short thrift with any freeloading arsewipe who advocates it.


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: bardo]
      #417350 - 06/02/07 08:43 PM
Quote bardo:

The freeloading slime doesn't like to be judged and sumed up on 5 sentences.



And hard working, innovative and clever software writers and other developers don't like having many months of their work downloaded (stolen) for free!

Quote bardo:

Audio programming is not in my area of expertize at all, and it requires very specific knowledge about acoustics, signal processing and things like that. Yeah i could probably do it after reading piles and piles of signal processing books and the like but i prefer to let those naturally interested in the subject do the work



What? So you can just rip off their work and knowledge and expertise and time for nothing on some P2P network?


Steve

--------------------
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tipex
new member


Joined: 22/04/03
Posts: 985
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417392 - 06/02/07 10:12 PM
maybe the best thing you can do if you're tempted by cracks is buy a mac, there just aren't any anymore


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417403 - 06/02/07 10:32 PM
Quote hollowsun:


Yep. just because somebody didn't break into my house and physically take a CD-ROM from the premises does not mean that downloading a free copy is any different. It is theft and not just of income but intellectual property.


This whole theft of potential income doesn't ring true if the person who "stole" your software was never to buy it in the first place! This isn't directed at hollowsun only, but to the many other whingers: please stop complaining about the "totally immoral theft pandemic that is sweeping the nation and destroying the industry" whatever. It just isn't true. And if it really is, you have no way of knowing that, thus no right to state such.

For the record, I buy software because I appreciate the support, stability and updates. But I also appreciate the right for wealth to be spread. It stems from a philosophical theory of mine, which may come across very controversial to those brainwashed by our society.


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417410 - 06/02/07 10:40 PM
Under UK law it is theft, not weasel words like "copyright infringement" (designed by criminals to make the criminals feel better about it).

Check out the Theft Act 1968.

Maximum penalty - 14 years in jail.

My personal view: it's indefensible. I've seen good businesses go bust over it, in a 30 year career of dealing with bust businesses.

When you have personally turned up at the premises to close down the business and fire the workforce (meanwhile telling them they will at best get partial payment of arrears of wages, at some point in the next 12 weeks if they are lucky, and by the way their pension is probably down the toilet), and then watched the founder/CEO's face as he realises his dream has gone up in smoke, he's failed his workforce, his family, his creditors, his investors, his friends at the golf club and himself, and you've seen one or two such people quietly slink away and top themselves, then frankly you lose any last vestige of sympathy you may once have had for the slimeball, bloodsucking, trashy vermin who thought it might have been a bit of a laugh to crack their product and share it with their mates.

Grow up bardo, it's people's lives you're f***ing with.

And no E D, some homespun weird proto-Marxist "philosophy" isn't an excuse either. And I know exactly what I'm talking about from bitter experience.

Maybe one day it will happen to you.

Edited by Steve Hill (06/02/07 10:43 PM)


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tipex
new member


Joined: 22/04/03
Posts: 985
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417434 - 06/02/07 11:26 PM
so why didn't this notional CEO have good copy protection then?


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: E D]
      #417487 - 07/02/07 02:13 AM
Quote E D:

This whole theft of potential income doesn't ring true if the person who "stole" your software was never to buy it in the first place! This isn't directed at hollowsun only, but to the many other whingers: please stop complaining about the "totally immoral theft pandemic that is sweeping the nation and destroying the industry" whatever. It just isn't true. And if it really is, you have no way of knowing that, thus no right to state such.



What a load of utter bollox... complete and utter bollox.

You just don't get it do you, you moron. What? Just because someone might not not have thought of buying my product (or others') in the first place, does that justify ripping it off? No it fecking doesn't you freeloading little sh!t. You have several month's worth of my work in your possession and whether you use it or not, it's a lost sale to me that impacts on my life.... and my family's.

Are you naturally stupid or did you attend a course?

There is no justification for piracy - full stop ... period. IT AFFECTS PEOPLE'S LIVES AND LIVELIHOOD AND IT IS RUINING AN INDUSTRY. You are stealing... you are a virtual burglar!

And piracy IS pandemic and likely to bring the industry to its knees. And where will you be then with nothing to crack/download for free? At the mercy of some 13-yr-old's take on a synth?!

Idiot


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #417488 - 07/02/07 02:14 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Under UK law it is theft, not weasel words like "copyright infringement" (designed by criminals to make the criminals feel better about it).




Uh, I thought penal code was drafted by lawyers? You're not calling lawyers and legislators who designed these terms criminals, are you? Isn't that slanderous?

Anyway, I'm not sure about the laws in England, but copyright crimes in the U.S. are typically addressed by civil law, and not criminal law (which is where theft is addressed). BIG difference.... Recent changes in laws recognize that criminal prosecution of copyright infringement is sometimes needed, but this generally pertains to those who do engage in such activities on a massive scale (uploaders, DVD bootleggers, etc).

Whatever: you still shouldn't do it, as it's wrong.

However, it seems to me that the paranoia pendulum has shifted in the other direction: some people are so freaked out about violating copyright, they don't even realize when we're allowed to make copies (e.g. Fair Use, etc). I say people should know their rights, or we risk losing them....

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Feefer
member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 441
Loc: CA, USA
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417492 - 07/02/07 02:24 AM
Quote hollowsun:

You are stealing... you are a virtual burglar!




Oooh, then let's throw him in a virtual jail.

FWIW, the assertion that everyone is a thief waiting to steal if given a chance is a bit over the top: just today, Steve Jobs was discussing the idea of eliminating DRM from ALL devices, in this "thoughts on Music" posted on Apple.com just today:

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

A discussion:

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2007/02/drm/index.php

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5

Edited by Feefer (07/02/07 02:52 AM)


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Feefer]
      #417544 - 07/02/07 09:05 AM
It goes without saying that a 1968 law did not really have computers in mind...

But it remains UK law.

And just as you can't be a little bit pregnant, you can't saying stealing a dollar is better than stealing 100 dollars or 1 million dollars.

If you counterfeit say the latest Harry Potter movie and sell millions of DVDs you should expect prosecution and probably a jail sentence.

In (in the UK, where we have no fair use provision) you make one copy and give it to your granny free of charge, you are equally guilty of theft. You just might get a lighter sentence (if anyone was daft enought to prosecute you). But theft is theft is theft.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417588 - 07/02/07 10:44 AM
Steve: "theft is theft is theft".

You can talk about 'weasel words' and refuse to make or see distinctions all you like, the fact remains that there is a moral difference in most people's eyes between breaking into somebody's property and stealing their posessions, or picking their pockets and taking their money and credit cards, or removing money from their bank account by hacking or deception (all cases in which the victim tangibly loses something they used to have), and making a copy of some individual's or some corporation's work, without paying for it, for personal use. For most people, the difference is plain (for them) to see, whether you can (want to) see it or not.

It is precisely because of this percieved difference, that the problem of piracy exists. People see that one is not the same as the other, and they don't feel bad about copying a song or downloading an mp3, despite the fact that they would never dream of breaking into someone's home or bank account and stealing their money. Presumably you would accept that (most) people did NOT believe they were committing an act morally equivalent to burglary or fraud, when they make a cassette recording of Thriller for a friend, back in the days when 'home taping was killing music'...

It's just that you think that the solution is to make everybody believe that the one is equivalent to the other, or failing that, to treat the two types of moral infringement as the same, presumably by either locking up people who use cracked software, or by freeing all the burglers.

Neither of these two things is going to happen. I'm sorry that you (may) have lost out personally because the fruits of your labour are so easily reproduced. But you'd almost certainly be wrong to assume that if somebody owns an illegal reproduction of your work, that they would necessarily have bought it if they'd been unable to obtain it illegally.

And before anyone goes thinking I'm on the "music burgler's" side: I'm not (see previous posts). I just think it doesn't do any good to shut your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and insist that the vast majority of people are thieves or freeloading scum, just because they don't share your moral perspective. You can still do that if you want, of course, but it won't change anything.

Also, trying to conflate what your average mp3 downloading kid does, with someone who makes and sells a million copies of the lastest Harry Potter DVD, just shows how daft this 'theft is theft is theft' business is.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417598 - 07/02/07 11:00 AM
Zukan: "Richard, I understand your argument but it is highly flawed. You are comparing theft of a single physical item from someone who owns it and makes no money from it and has contributed nothing towards the R&D of it and so on and comparing it to something that is exactly the opposite."

Hi Zukan. The point of the comparison was to show how different stealing a telly is from an act of copyright infringement!

You seem to be admitting that the two things are 'exactly the opposite'!

Which was kind of my point.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9349
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417601 - 07/02/07 11:04 AM
Indeed.

But no matter how we debate the semantics, it is still theft, be it physical or virtual.

It is this distinction that the thieves cling to for justification in what they do.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Zukan]
      #417606 - 07/02/07 11:19 AM
On the subject of semantics, I've just changed my sign-off to something more apt. Ludwig has been dead for some time, so I'm not in the position to pay him for his wisdom, hard-won as it was. Nevertheless, I don't feel that he would be too miffed by my reproducing it, freely, gratis and for nowt.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417615 - 07/02/07 11:32 AM
Quote Richard Graham:

when they make a cassette recording of Thriller for a friend, back in the days when 'home taping was killing music'...



A naive comparison.

I am not too bothered if someone makes a copy of my sound lib for a friend - assuming said friend likes it and asks for a copy, I am almost flattered.

But we're talking about THOUSANDS of people downloading illegal sh!t on P2P networks, bit torrent sites and so on.

And don't give me this bollox about "They wouldn't have bought it anyway". Fine, on that understanding, next time I am at the veg shop, I'll walk out with some broccolli. When asked what the hell I'm doing, I'll pass on your sage advice - "S'ok - I wouldn't have bought it anyway"


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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Carlospresents...



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1913
Loc: Todmorden
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #417630 - 07/02/07 11:46 AM
I find that a huge shame, as Brocolli is an amazing veg.

--------------------
My Jukebocks


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417636 - 07/02/07 11:55 AM
Hi Steve,

the difference between stealing broccoli that you weren't going to buy, and downloading a file you weren't going to buy, could hardly be clearer, and perfectly illustrates my point.

In the case of the broccoli, the grocer no longer has the broccoli available to sell to someone who is prepared to pay for it. In this case you have very clearly 'deprived him of potential earnings'.

I'm sure you can work out the other half of the unequation.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3142
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417639 - 07/02/07 12:00 PM
Steve, you called taping Thriller for a friend "a naive comparison" with P2P.

Yes indeed, it is a naive comparison. But go back through this thread and see who brought it up. It wasn't one of the pro-piracy lot.

(EDIT: Looking back, I think may have misunderstood the point of the original 'Thriller' post: he was on about P2P, not home taping... I think the fact he was on about an 80s which must have been taped a million times probably confused me... sorry!)

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417694 - 07/02/07 01:22 PM
I simply don't understand your argument, still less ascribe any moral validity to it.

I've been in the room when I've delivered the news to proprietors of software businesses that they are bankrupt. That they have personally guaranteed the company's bank loan and secured it by a mortgage on their house. That the company's assets (essentially two fifths of bugger all) won't pay off the bank. That they will have to go home and tell their wife and kids they will soon be homeless as well as jobless. After I've broken the news to the management, I go and fire the staff. I've been in this position at least 50 times with real businesses and real people.

All because some scumbags have seen fit to steal their goods rather than pay for them. A battle they've lost even though they've been trying and failing to get 25 new websites per day taken down when they really want to be developing their software instead.

There is no argument to be made in favour of kicking defenceless children onto the street as a result of forced evictions which would be avoided if people were not thieves.

I rest my case.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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