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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3021
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #417718 - 07/02/07 02:08 PM
Steve, 'simply not understanding' something is no guarantee that the something you don't understand is illogical, invalid, or badly thought out, any more than not being able to drive implies the impossibility of motor-cars.

Sad to say, 'simply not understanding' things is a tactic that is sometimes used by people who *DO* understand a clearly presented, valid, logical argument, but who cannot engage with it for whatever reason. Sometimes this is because they have a lot invested in believing the opposite of whatever is being argued. Because they don't like the conclusions drawn, and cannot refute the reasoning which leads to them, they claim incomprehension.

A diversionary tactic, sometimes used to try to cover up a lack of engagement with reasoned argument, is to cite heart-rending tales of woe, in the hope that this will distract their opponents, and/or make them feel guilty enough to say 'ok, ok, you're right'. Sometimes the tales of woe are both true and genuinely heart-felt, even if the supposed lack of understanding is totally bogus.

This shouldn't distract us from the fact that tales of woe do not, in and of themselves, invalidate a reasoned argument. You might as well present us with a dead chicken.

Calling people scumbags, and accusing them of kicking defenceless children out on the street: it won't wash. The only argument you are discrediting is your own.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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R. Spisketts



Joined: 29/01/05
Posts: 1319
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417777 - 07/02/07 03:30 PM
Its all very well to make emotive posts about software pirates kicking children into the street, but the responsibility of the success or failure of a business venture lies with the people running that business. Thats why they call it "running" a business. Like it or not, piracy is part of the landscape of software development. There are many other problems to negotiate, too - the price of the pound against the dollar, cost of commercial property, competition from other products, and so on. Businesses fail for a complex combination of reasons.

Morality and business never sit too well. Some of the most successful companies that prop up the British economy will have a history of, for starters, exploiting their employees (perhaps within the law, perhaps not), dumping toxic waste (perhaps within legal guidelines, perhaps not)... and so on. Would it be nicer if these companies were more... moral? Would it make us more moral as a society? Would there be less desire to steal, if we weren't constantly being bombarded with adverts for "things" ??

If Fleetwood Mac were software pirates would you turn away their business??

--------------------
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PrinceXizor
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: R. Spisketts]
      #417785 - 07/02/07 03:45 PM
It seems this thread is now into your typical cracked software thread. Could we move this to OT please?

Jim

--------------------
My Home Studio Build Thread


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TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME
posting's fun


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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #417793 - 07/02/07 03:55 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

I simply don't understand your argument, still less ascribe any moral validity to it.
...
There is no argument to be made in favour of kicking defenceless children onto the street as a result of forced evictions which would be avoided if people were not thieves.

I rest my case.



Steve, I think Richard's main point is simply this:

The act of making a verbatim copy of something is different from the act of taking away that thing.

Whether that leads to any legal or moral justification of piracy is another matter altogether, but surely the distinction Richard is making is quite clear?

I don't doubt the grimness of the experiences you describe above, but I don't see quite how they contribute to the attempt at reasoning in this thread.

--------------------
TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3021
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME]
      #417808 - 07/02/07 04:15 PM
Thanks for translating Jimi. I probably made the argument needlessly complex, trying to refute counter-arguments about broccoli. I'd have to add that *most* people (I believe) still think that theft is 'taking away that thing', and that 'making a verbatim copy of that thing' isn't theft, because you haven't 'taken anything away'. To which Steve would probably answer 'you've taken away the poor developer's earnings'. To which I would say 'not unless you were going to buy it'. To which he would say 'it's still illegal and immoral'. To which I would say, "I agree... but let's not pretend its the same as burglery because that just gives people the idea that we don't live on planet Earth, and they will be less likely to listen to the real reasons why they should pay".

Hope this is clear enough.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417831 - 07/02/07 04:48 PM
Astonishing! And STILL you seek to defend piracy

Steve's (the other one) example was one of 50 he has had to deal with. And I don't disbelieve him given his legal credentials.

I, on the other hand (like others here), are on the receiving end of piracy and ok, maybe no-one has stolen my broccolli as such but many people have deprived me of income and are using MY work and MY efforts and MY expertise and skills (acquired over 30 years of experience in the industry) in their work ... for nothing ... for free. I put months of work into the product(s), they filch it for nowt in a 5 minute download.

Is that pirated copy a showcase for my products? Quite possibly but in reality I suspect that if they liked that one, they'll simply go hunting out the rest elsewhere on P2P ... and they will probably find it. Would they have bought it in the first place? Maybe not BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is that they have taken something of mine - stolen if you like.

Personally, I feel that until you are on the receiving end of this subtle form of theft, you have no position to comment ... and certainly no case for 'defending' piracy whatever twist you put on it.


Steve

--------------------
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Feefer
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #417835 - 07/02/07 04:55 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

And just as you can't be a little bit pregnant, you can't saying stealing a dollar is better than stealing 100 dollars or 1 million dollars.




While you may have a point from a purely moral standpoint, certainly you're not equating the economic damages as being equivalent?

For even in the world of copyright infringement and IP law, some violations are considered so insignificant as to make enforcing the violation an extremely bad business decision, simply not worth the costs and hassle. Even companies with massive revenue sometimes find they've spent infinitely more on legal fees than the damages incurred by the original infringement. To deny the concept of damages thresholds is downright silly, from a real-world standpoint.

(There's many companies that pursue litigation as "patent trolls", trying to leech off of possible violators, despite not producing anything with their patent.)

Quote Steve Hill:

If you counterfeit say the latest Harry Potter movie and sell millions of DVDs you should expect prosecution and probably a jail sentence.

In (in the UK, where we have no fair use provision) you make one copy and give it to your granny free of charge, you are equally guilty of theft. You just might get a lighter sentence (if anyone was daft enought to prosecute you). But theft is theft is theft.




So while "theft is theft" when it comes to determining which tort to use for criminal prosecution, I think you're conceding that the value of the thieved item plays a major role when it comes to sentencing?

Otherwise, I find it hard to imagine that U.K. judges are throwing life sentences at people who steal a slice of bread, and giving probation to those who rob banks! If that's not the case, it's amazing to learn you guys are still living in conditions reminiscent of an 18th Century Dickens novel! If not, U.K. law sounds more like those Middle Eastern countries where they cut off someone's hands as punishment for petty theft.

@@@@

The bottom line is that all businesses face threats from MANY sources, and you either adapt or liquidate.

I think it's a foolish business strategy to focus most of your energies on those people who aren't your customers, and aren't likely to be. Know who your customer base is, and focus on pleasing your target audience. Companies should bend over backwards to take care of their EXISTING customers, and not treat them in a hostile manner as potential criminals. Some software companies "get it", and many don't.

Treating customers as your minions is a guaranteed way to foster poor customer service attitudes within your organizarion, and businesses can continue to mistreat their customers at their own risk (of going out of business). The hubris of some of these software companies is amazing/baffling...

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Feefer
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Joined: 10/04/03
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417844 - 07/02/07 05:12 PM
Quote hollowsun:

I, on the other hand (like others here), are on the receiving end of piracy and ok, maybe no-one has stolen my broccolli as such but many people have deprived me of income and are using MY work and MY efforts and MY expertise and skills (acquired over 30 years of experience in the industry) in their work ... for nothing ... for free. I put months of work into the product(s), they filch it for nowt in a 5 minute download.

Is that pirated copy a showcase for my products? Quite possibly but in reality I suspect that if they liked that one, they'll simply go hunting out the rest elsewhere on P2P ... and they will probably find it. Would they have bought it in the first place? Maybe not BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is that they have taken something of mine - stolen if you like.

Personally, I feel that until you are on the receiving end of this subtle form of theft, you have no position to comment ... and certainly no case for 'defending' piracy whatever twist you put on it.




Are you for real? What a laughable assertion, saying a forum full of MUSICIANS would NOT be on the receiving end of harm from piracy? I guess you've never noticed that P2P files often include musical recordings?

The reality is that while software (and music) piracy is wrong, get over yourself and come up with a reasonable approach to address it! Focus on what you do well, and charge a reaonable price for your services. Don't cry over spilt milk, and figure out a reasonable customer-friendly method to prevent milk from spilling in the future. Don't worry about what you'll never fix anyway, as you'll lose what you DO have.

FWIW, I don't use cracked OR discontinued software, and spend lots of money on current software. Why? I want software that is actively supported to ensure compatibility with other titles, as well as future updates when OS platforms change (Vista, 10.5, etc), etc. Your average professional (you know, the guys who actually PAY for the software) is NOT going to mess with cracks, etc. as they want a supported product, and a phone that is answered when they call to ask a question, etc.

As it stands, you're coming off as whining: I'd advise you to just let it go, as this whole stance of gnashing one's teeth over the immorality of the situation and accusing copyright infringers of theft comes off to the typical consumer as largely being a self-serving diatribe.

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3021
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417845 - 07/02/07 05:13 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Astonishing! And STILL you seek to defend piracy




Look, no amount of pretending to be astonished and rolling your eyes is going to convince anyone who disagrees with you that you are right. Come up with some cogent arguments instead i.e. not just a mixture of abuse, rhetoric, misrepresentation, and emotional blackmail.

Quote hollowsun:

Steve's (the other one) example was one of 50 he has had to deal with. And I don't disbelieve him given his legal credentials.




You could come up with a million examples, all true, all tragic, but they'd still be as irrelevant to this argument as the first.

Quote hollowsun:


I, on the other hand (like others here), are on the receiving end of piracy and ok, maybe no-one has stolen my broccolli as such but many people have deprived me of income and are using MY work and MY efforts and MY expertise and skills (acquired over 30 years of experience in the industry) in their work ... for nothing ... for free. I put months of work into the product(s), they filch it for nowt in a 5 minute download.




I'm sure this is true, and it is morally wrong. As I've said. Repeatedly.

Quote hollowsun:


Is that pirated copy a showcase for my products? Quite possibly but in reality I suspect that if they liked that one, they'll simply go hunting out the rest elsewhere on P2P ... and they will probably find it. Would they have bought it in the first place? Maybe not BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is that they have taken something of mine - stolen if you like.




Good first point, you're probably right about someone who'd never buy a piece of software he could download. Latter point a bit moot, and begging the question... "stolen if you like". And so, "copied" or "borrowed" or just "used" if you don't like. None of which makes it right, IMO.

Quote hollowsun:


Personally, I feel that until you are on the receiving end of this subtle form of theft, you have no position to comment ... and certainly no case for 'defending' piracy whatever twist you put on it.




So the only people allowed to judge anything are the same people who have a vested interest in it? At least you admit it is a 'subtle form of theft', which is in direct contradiction to Steve Hill's 'theft is theft is theft' rhetoric. As for 'defending' piracy (why the quotes, by the way?), I'm not. I'm just trying to get to a position where the debate makes a bit more sense, rather than the 'you're all thieving bastards' camp vs. the 'everything should be free anyway' camp: both of whom are shooting at straw men, and wondering why the debate doesn't move on.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: London
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #417927 - 07/02/07 07:58 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote E D:

This whole theft of potential income doesn't ring true if the person who "stole" your software was never to buy it in the first place! This isn't directed at hollowsun only, but to the many other whingers: please stop complaining about the "totally immoral theft pandemic that is sweeping the nation and destroying the industry" whatever. It just isn't true. And if it really is, you have no way of knowing that, thus no right to state such.



What a load of utter bollox... complete and utter bollox.

You just don't get it do you, you moron. What? Just because someone might not not have thought of buying my product (or others') in the first place, does that justify ripping it off? No it fecking doesn't you freeloading little sh!t. You have several month's worth of my work in your possession and whether you use it or not, it's a lost sale to me that impacts on my life.... and my family's.

Are you naturally stupid or did you attend a course?

There is no justification for piracy - full stop ... period. IT AFFECTS PEOPLE'S LIVES AND LIVELIHOOD AND IT IS RUINING AN INDUSTRY. You are stealing... you are a virtual burglar!

And piracy IS pandemic and likely to bring the industry to its knees. And where will you be then with nothing to crack/download for free? At the mercy of some 13-yr-old's take on a synth?!

Idiot


Steve




Please, there's no need to make this personal. It's funny how you're still disputing my argument which is simply stating fact, whereas you're arguing on the hypothetical with no evidence to prove it but a strong wish to encourage others to believe you're the moral upstander and I am not. Yeah, you do stand for moral, and I praise that. But I think your misguided, especially in thinking that I or anyone who holds a similar view to me, do not hold moral.

Lastly...
Quote Hollowsun:

You just don't get it do you, you moron. What? Just because someone might not not have thought of buying my product (or others') in the first place, does that justify ripping it off? No it fecking doesn't you freeloading little sh!t. You have several month's worth of my work in your possession and whether you use it or not, it's a lost sale to me that impacts on my life.... and my family's.


You're twisting my words and like I previously stated. I don't own any cracks, so none of that 'freeloading little sh!t' stuff. I wonder what work of yours I've had in my possession for several months. Please, let me know, because I'll happily boycott your work in future. - Now I really am depriving you of potential income


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Steve Hill
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417936 - 07/02/07 08:15 PM
Quote Richard Graham:

Steve, 'simply not understanding' something is no guarantee that the something you don't understand is illogical, invalid, or badly thought out, any more than not being able to drive implies the impossibility of motor-cars.

Sad to say, 'simply not understanding' things is a tactic that is sometimes used by people who *DO* understand a clearly presented, valid, logical argument, but who cannot engage with it for whatever reason.




I don't have to justify anything.

Anyone holding a different view has to explain why breaking the law is OK, and go and make their case to Parliament for the law to be changed.

I know if you download a single crack of a $50 program you are unlikely to be prosecuted or, if you were, the sentence may well be trivial. All that is to do with resource issues, and cost-benefit equations, not morality.

It can't be moral to commit a crime secure in the knowledge that no-one will ever be able to justify the financial expense of a prosecution.

And we do have the object lesson of the major record companies (who I do not applaud BTW) shaking out the (parents') pockets of serial downloading teenage kids for a few thousand, secure in the knowledge that it is not worth those kids/parents' paying lawyers to go to court to try to defend the indefensible. So they pay up in response to a court filing and blackmail, basically.

I reckon it's only a matter of time before software companies do the same.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: E D]
      #417976 - 07/02/07 09:05 PM
Quote E D:

I wonder what work of yours I've had in my possession for several months.



Probably none unless you own one of Akai's more recent samplers.

Quote E D:

Please, let me know, because I'll happily boycott your work in future. - Now I really am depriving you of potential income



Fine


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #417996 - 07/02/07 09:57 PM
Quote Richard Graham:

Come up with some cogent arguments instead



You keep arguing that people uses 'copies' of software that they wouldn't have bought in the first place. That may be true in some cases but generally, this is a naive interpretation - people use Limewire, Shareaza, etc., in order to find software that they want but don't want to pay for ... they deliberately go looking for Reason or Cubase or NI's Prophet 5, whatever, because they WANT it (and are therefore potential customers for the companies referred to) but they want it for nothing (and are therefore, effectively, thieves). Just because a physical copy was not removed from the company's warehouse does not make it any less an act of theft ... and they may as well have broken into the warehouse and taken a copy of the shelves.

And unfortunately, there are a good number of people who do that, quite probably outstripping the number of people who buy the products.

The SOS forum is a relatively civilised place but just a cursory stroll around other, less mature forums will reveal that piracy of almost anything is rife, if not the de facto means of owning software products... places where the most popular FAQ is "Where can I get free XYZ?". On one such forum, someone asked for views on one of my products, some people recommended it and the poster came back: "Great, thanks. Anyone got a P2P with it"! Bad enough in itself but there followed a barrage of replies offering no end of suggested networks and bit torrents! And forums where the members are one big shared network and proudly announce when the latest crack of something is available. Jeez - I've even had people email me asking if I know of any P2P networks where they can get my stuff!

Quote Richard Graham:

So the only people allowed to judge anything are the same people who have a vested interest in it?



No but those on the receiving end of it, those who have to spend not an inconsiderable amount of time chasing sites to withdraw their illegally hosted material, etc., those whose legal livelihood is (or has been) threatened by illegal 'copying' are arguably in a better position to know the real impact it can have.

Quote Richard Graham:

At least you admit it is a 'subtle form of theft', which is in direct contradiction to Steve Hill's 'theft is theft is theft' rhetoric.



It may be a subtle form of theft but... theft is theft!

Quote Richard Graham:

As for 'defending' piracy (why the quotes, by the way?), I'm not.



Not quotation "marks" but using the word ambiguously to imply defending, condoning, supporting, whatever.

I know that you are not defending piracy as such but you do appear to give it credence by implying that it's ok if you didn't intend to buy it in the first place. Well sorry, many people use cracked software who never intended to buy it - they deliberately sought out a cracked or otherwise illegal copy not because they didn't want to buy it but because they didn't want to pay for it which is a subtle but significant distinction. And that, I'm afraid, IS pandemic and that, I'm afraid, IS causing the industry harm at many levels.


Steve

--------------------
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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #418009 - 07/02/07 10:16 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote Richard Graham:

At least you admit it is a 'subtle form of theft', which is in direct contradiction to Steve Hill's 'theft is theft is theft' rhetoric.



It may be a subtle form of theft but... theft is theft!





Thank you or clarifying. I was still trying to work out how "subtle" theft differed from the real thing.

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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #418020 - 07/02/07 10:37 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Thank you or clarifying. I was still trying to work out how "subtle" theft differed from the real thing.





As in a bit pregnant?

No ... 'subtle' inasmuch as nothing is physically removed but that the owner has still been deprived of something illegally that belongs to them nonetheless.


Steve

--------------------
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R. Spisketts



Joined: 29/01/05
Posts: 1319
Loc: Southsea
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #418057 - 08/02/07 12:09 AM
Ah well.

All part of life's rich mosaic.

Adopt, adapt, and improve.

Onwards and upwards.

Musn't grumble.

--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump


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George Andoh



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 38
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #418084 - 08/02/07 01:54 AM
Maybe we should try to separate moral and legal issues here and start again with very small steps. Hopefully this way we will reach some understanding.

Here it goes:

Step #1.
Question for hollowsun and Steve:
Is it morally acceptable to walk into a bookstore, leaf through a book and put it back on a shelf? I know it is legal. I only want to know if it is morally acceptable for people like you two.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: George Andoh]
      #418091 - 08/02/07 03:17 AM
Quote George Andoh:

Step #1.
Question for hollowsun and Steve:
Is it morally acceptable to walk into a bookstore, leaf through a book and put it back on a shelf? I know it is legal. I only want to know if it is morally acceptable for people like you two.



I can't speak for the other Steve but 'leafing' through a book at a bookstore is one thing... get a feel for the story/plot snd writing style and decide whether or not to buy it based on that 'leafing'. However, to spend all day there reading it from cover to cover is questionable.

The'leafing' process is much like downloading a demo that is time limited or issues bursts of noise periodically or is save-disabled - you can get a feel for it prior to making a purchasing decision. Which is fine.

Reading the thing from cover to cover at the bookstore is, however, more along the lines of ripping the author off - reading his/her work for no reward.

However, I suspect that the burly security operatives at Waterstones may be called to action if someone was seen to be *reading* (not 'leafing through') a book (or a magazine at WH Smith... whatever, wherever).

I can (kind of) see where you're headed with this but I am not sure the analogy/comparison to 'the real world' is valid. Yes, I can go to a shop and try on a pair of trousers (whatever) and if I don't like 'em, I can take 'em off, hand 'em back to the sales operative, say "thank you" and walk out of the shop - I have not deprived them of anything. That's like using an authorised 'limited' demo.

Stuffing 'em into my shoplifter's overcoat is another thing altogether... assuming I can get away with it, I can wear them time and time again and get value from the stolen product. And so it is with cracked 'warez' (even though the item has not been physically stolen or removed from the premises as such).

And this seems to be the stumbling block here - the distinction between 'physical' theft and 'virtual' theft. Either way, someone is deprived of a legal income. And it can hurt the developer big time ... is all I am saying


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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TTN



Joined: 14/11/04
Posts: 1087
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #418098 - 08/02/07 04:33 AM
this thread is turning a turn to the gh3y direction..

There are no analogies that will sum the piracy of software up. software can be copied exactly, immediately. People who are in the business of it know this and make their own bed

If all the software companies died tomorrow we'd all be using hardware again - and how bad would that be?

End of. Back on topic someone...


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3021
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #418202 - 08/02/07 10:47 AM
Quote hollowsun:


No ... 'subtle' inasmuch as nothing is physically removed but that the owner has still been deprived of something illegally that belongs to them nonetheless.





Round and round and round. I only hope your logic is better when you write your code. Stop up your ears, close your eyes, keep 'em tight shut, the problem will go away if you keep muttering 'pirates... theives', 'theft is theft is theft' and other such mantras. Accuse anyone who disagrees with you of supporting piracy and theft EVEN WHEN HE HAS UNEQUIVOCALLY POSTED THE OPPOSITE VIEWPOINT IN THE VERY SAME THREAD.

There are only two colours, right? Black and white.

I could come up with plenty of LEGAL examples of creative, productive people being 'deprived' in a similar way, that don't seem to stoke your ire. You lend a novel to a friend, instead of buying them a copy (but you're not a novelist, so I suppose that's ok). You walk past a busker and listen for a minute, without giving them anything (don't use the excuse that you've got no change, isn't that a tenner in your pocket? Give them that! They're not worth a tenner? How dare you!) You tape a show off the telly, and it's so good you watch it twice. You watch a DVD at a friend's house, instead of buying one of your own. You read a magazine article in WHSmith and don't buy the magazine (of course, you don't do that, do you? But I do, and I can tell you that they aren't bothered: because they know that I will buy a magazine off them if I like the look of it enough to want to own it, and I frequently do). You like the look of a book enough to read a couple of chapters in Waterstones, but you find it's pretty boring, so you don't buy it? You've just deprived the author! You scumbag! You scoundrel! You pirate! You read books in a library. Worse still, you take them home with you, where they sit on the bookshelf next to your paid-for copies! Disgusting! You borrow CDs, DVDs or videos from a library, instead of buying them. You rent a DVD instead of buying it... if you borrow pretty much anything instead of getting your own, you've 'deprived' the designer of his cut.

Why don't these examples count as 'stealing'? The owner of the intellectual copyright in any of these situations, has lost out just as surely as a software designer whose software is cracked and used without payment. Are they different just because they are all (as far as I know) legal? Should I be losing sleep of doing any or all of the above?

The problem is, you seem to think that everyone who downloads your software thinks it's a big deal, and uses it all the time without paying. More likely, they fiddle with it a few times, before moving on to the next thing. They probably only scratch the surface of what it is capable of. If they had to pay £100 for it, they most likely wouldn't bother with it. Harsh but true.

Unless of course it really is that indispensible. Go on, post a link to your software... I *promise* you, if I think I will use it enough to justify the asking price, I will gladly buy it from you.

And all this without even mentioning how (some) software houses have used the work of great hardware designers, freely creating thousands (millions?) of imitation copies of their products, which they sell at a profit to people who are too honest to download an illegal copy!

Oh, did I just mention that after all? Sorry!

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME
posting's fun


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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #418212 - 08/02/07 11:05 AM
Quote Richard Graham:

Why don't these examples count as 'stealing'? The owner of the intellectual copyright in any of these situations, has lost out just as surely as a software designer whose software is cracked and used without payment. Are they different just because they are all (as far as I know) legal? Should I be losing sleep of doing any or all of the above?



Well it's more a matter of licence conditions isn't it. And some of the situations you describe above would be permitted and some not permitted under the terms of the licence in question.

--------------------
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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME]
      #418221 - 08/02/07 11:24 AM
Quote JimiQ:

Quote Richard Graham:

Why don't these examples count as 'stealing'? The owner of the intellectual copyright in any of these situations, has lost out just as surely as a software designer whose software is cracked and used without payment. Are they different just because they are all (as far as I know) legal? Should I be losing sleep of doing any or all of the above?



Well it's more a matter of licence conditions isn't it. And some of the situations you describe above would be permitted and some not permitted under the terms of the licence in question.




Point is, they're all the kinds of things that perfectly normal, 'law-abiding' citizens do all the time without thinking twice about it... and legal or not, they all 'deprive' the producer of the income they would have received had the item or service in question been bought and paid for.

Software designers might argue that their case merits special pleading for some reason, and should be considered 'theft' by the law, when borrowing a book is not. Presumably a software designer don't need the money any more than the novelist whose book gets loaned out- so it can't be for that reason.

Of course, they do (currently) have the law on their side... so it could just be a case of "we've got the law on our side, and the law says it is stealing" i.e. a kind of legally-backed 'might makes right'... the novelist does not have recourse to the law when a library lends his or her books out, and I realise I'm frequenting the wrong website, but I don't see a lot of novelists crying about the fact that their work is freely distibuted through libraries.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Steve Hill
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #418236 - 08/02/07 11:44 AM
Richard, I am not disputing that you are opposed to piracy. Just as bardo seems to think it's all a big lark and an entirely victimless crime.

I'm just pointing out what I know (it's not exactly disputable) to be the legal position. And that there are victims, some of whom I know personally.

I'm not interested in going round the houses. Or bookshops. But authors get enhanced royalty payments for library sales. And if I want to borrow a Pro Tools set-up (which I don't have here), I can hire it from a "library" such as FX Rentals to decide if I like it.

We can discuss whether the law should be changed. It is probably out of date and in need of reform. But I really can't see a change happening where we allow free use of other people's copyright material.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (08/02/07 11:49 AM)


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #418256 - 08/02/07 12:30 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Richard, I am not disputing that you are opposed to piracy. Just as bardo seems to think it's all a big lark and an entirely victimless crime.

I'm just pointing out what I know (it's not exactly disputable) to be the legal position. And that there are victims, some of whom I know personally.

I'm not interested in going round the houses. Or bookshops. But authors get enhanced royalty payments for library sales. And if I want to borrow a Pro Tools set-up (which I don't have here), I can hire it from a "library" such as FX Rentals to decide if I like it.

We can discuss whether the law should be changed. It is probably out of date and in need of reform. But I really can't see a change happening where we allow free use of other people's copyright material.




Thanks Steve. Perhaps the law needs changing, as it doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of protecting the interests of software developers. Perhaps the business model needs to change, too, from a very expensive 'one off' payment, to a pay by the month system, or even a 'metered trickle' to encourage people to pay for using software without forcing them to pay megabucks for something they find they hardly ever use.

It's not like the technology isn't there to do these things!

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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hifistud2



Joined: 12/02/06
Posts: 795
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #418272 - 08/02/07 01:03 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

I simply don't understand your argument, still less ascribe any moral validity to it.





Here's the illustration:

1 You nip into the Louvre and half-inch the Mona Lisa, then flog it on the underground black market for twelvety gazillion quid.

In this scenario, you are a thief. OK, a very clever one, but a thief none the less.

2. You nip into the Louvre and take a picture of the Mona Lisa with your shiny new 12 megapixel camera. There are no notices to say that you can't.

When you get home, you print out your new ML piccy on your shiny new sixty squillion dots per inch printer to exactly life size, frame it and hang it on the wall.

What are you now??

3 Your mate from next door comes in, and likes your new ML piccy. He asks you for a copy, which you give him.

What are both of you now?

4 You tape the whole of, f'rinstance, Blade and Blade 2 from Sky movies. Aksherly, you record it to your DVD recorder (we are, after all, in the 21st century, year of the bat...). You finalise the DVD. Your mate borrows it (he missed it too), and makes a copy, because you haven't watched it yet..What are you both now??

--------------------
[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]


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TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME
posting's fun


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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #418284 - 08/02/07 01:28 PM
Quote Richard Graham:

Perhaps the business model needs to change, too, from a very expensive 'one off' payment, to a pay by the month system, or even a 'metered trickle' to encourage people to pay for using software without forcing them to pay megabucks for something they find they hardly ever use.



Some would argue that the traditional model of developing and selling proprietary software applications is somewhat outmoded anyway. If open standards are well-designed and widely embraced, if well-implemented components are licensed permissively, and if available processing grunt keeps marching on and up, then it's quite believable that the future business model will be based on assembling systems and providing support, maintenance and warranties for them. That's roughly what the major commercial linux distributions (SuSE, RHEL,..) have been doing anyway.

--------------------
TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hifistud2]
      #418292 - 08/02/07 01:32 PM
Quote hifistud2:

You nip into the Louvre and take a picture of the Mona Lisa with your shiny new 12 megapixel camera. There are no notices to say that you can't.

When you get home, you print out your new ML piccy on your shiny new sixty squillion dots per inch printer to exactly life size, frame it and hang it on the wall.




I hate to spoil it for you, but apparently the Mona Lisa isn't even so big that you'd need a 12 megapixel camera. I went to Paris for the day, back end of last year, and someone told me it actually was pretty weeny. Anyway, I saw a reproduction of Leonardo's masterpiece in a shop, so I decided not to go to the Louvre. I didn't buy the reproduction either, but instead spent the money on a cafe au lait and a saucisson sandwich. So in fact I deprived both the proprietor of the shop, and the Louvre, while getting the full benefit of a good look at La Giaconda, and also filling my thieving pirate belly! Arrrrr!

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #418481 - 08/02/07 08:36 PM
Quote Richard Graham:

You lend a novel to a friend, instead of buying them a copy (but you're not a novelist, so I suppose that's ok).



I've always wondered about that one but at the end of the day, I am without the novel ... in much the same way as if I lent/gave my car to my niece. Actually, not so long ago, several writers and publishers ran some 'campaign' for people to pass books to friends or leave books on the tube, wherever, when they've finished with it in order encourage book reading.

Quote Richard Graham:

You walk past a busker and listen for a minute, without giving them anything



I don't listen to buskers and if I consciously stop and listen, I will invariably toss 'em a few bob. I was actually so impressed with one (an extremely good young classical guitarist) that I spoke to him and booked him for a friend's 40th birthday party.

Quote Richard Graham:

You tape a show off the telly, and it's so good you watch it twice.



I have paid for a TV licence

Quote Richard Graham:

You watch a DVD at a friend's house, instead of buying one of your own.



That is not an illegal act and the original copyright holder has received a payment. Are you suggesting that if I admire a friend's flower arrangement, I am depriving the florist of income?

Quote Richard Graham:

You read a magazine article in WHSmith and don't buy the magazine (of course, you don't do that, do you?



I have done ... in much the same way that I have tried product demos and liked something of it but not enough to buy the whole thing.

Quote Richard Graham:

You like the look of a book enough to read a couple of chapters in Waterstones, but you find it's pretty boring, so you don't buy it?



See above.

I suppose you're going to accuse me of something for trying on a pair of trousers in a clothes shop and then not buying them because I don't like them.

Quote Richard Graham:

You read books in a library. Worse still, you take them home with you, where they sit on the bookshelf next to your paid-for copies! Disgusting! You borrow CDs, DVDs or videos from a library, instead of buying them. You rent a DVD instead of buying it... if you borrow pretty much anything instead of getting your own, you've 'deprived' the designer of his cut.



Not at all - the original copyright holder has either been paid and/or will receive a royalty every time it's borrowed/hired.

Quote Richard Graham:

Why don't these examples count as 'stealing'? The owner of the intellectual copyright in any of these situations, has lost out just as surely as a software designer whose software is cracked and used without payment. Are they different just because they are all (as far as I know) legal?



And remunerated in most cases.


Steve

--------------------
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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
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Loc: London
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #418483 - 08/02/07 08:44 PM
What if I pick up and read an old newspaper that someone has left behind on the tube, is that theft?


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tex
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Joined: 01/04/03
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: E D]
      #418496 - 08/02/07 09:19 PM
Quote E D:

What if I pick up and read an old newspaper that someone has left behind on the tube, is that theft?




No because it's sold as an object. But if it was licensed to the previous owner you may be able to read it but it would not belong to you. You could read it and try your best to find the owner and then take it home.
You also cannot reproduce any of it without the publishers permission as it's copyrighted.
I just know you'll know the answer when somebody copies your hit CD and robs you of a million bucks.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.


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TTN



Joined: 14/11/04
Posts: 1087
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: tex]
      #418502 - 08/02/07 09:34 PM

and this one fits the bill quite nicely - ker-chink!


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Feefer
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #418520 - 08/02/07 10:20 PM
Hi all,

Interesting answers that reveal that many have very little concept of what is covered by copyright law. Perhaps that's why some are over-reaching, demanding rights they're not even willing to grant to other creators of original works.

For example:

Quote hollowsun:

Quote Richard Graham:

You lend a novel to a friend, instead of buying them a copy (but you're not a novelist, so I suppose that's ok).



I've always wondered about that one but at the end of the day, I am without the novel ... in much the same way as if I lent/gave my car to my niece.




Wrong. Lending the novel is illegal, as it deprives the artist of the revenue generated by selling another copy.

Just as many EULAs stipulate the user cannot even GIVE away software they bought (even if they don't use it), you should not GIVE away or lend a book. The book author holds the copyright for a certain period of time, and that means they're able to determine in what form the work is distributed, etc.

There are provisions in most countries for libraries, etc, or where the original purchaser is allowed to sell their copy (e.g. the U.S. has Right of First Sale doctrine), but HollowSun is infringing the author's rights by lending or disposing of the book based on what HE thinks is an acceptable manner.

In a nutshell, we use the term 'copyright' to reflect that only the IP owner has the RIGHT to determine in what manner COPIES are distributed. Hence, COPY RIGHT.


Quote hollowsun:

Actually, not so long ago, several writers and publishers ran some 'campaign' for people to pass books to friends or leave books on the tube, wherever, when they've finished with it in order encourage book reading.




Such reasoning is not typical of the average software author, who fails to consider that maybe there IS some silver-lining or advantage in getting one's work in front of the public, and letting the value of their work sell based on it's OWN merits. Frankly, I've used share/donation ware, only later to decide to contribute to the author's efforts as a token of my appreciation. It's not such an unheard of concept, and I prefer the assumption that users are not cretins who'd steal from the owner, if given half a chance...

Unfortunately, the egos of most software authors won't allow this: they won't accept being on the level of the average street musician with the donation hat, begging for a hand-out. Unfortunately, that's a bitter pill for some software authors to swallow, and most will prefer to DEMAND payment, or ranting and raving about how their rights are being violated, etc.


Quote hollowsun:

Quote Richard Graham:

You walk past a busker and listen for a minute, without giving them anything


I don't listen to buskers and if I consciously stop and listen, I will invariably toss 'em a few bob. I was actually so impressed with one (an extremely good young classical guitarist) that I spoke to him and booked him for a friend's 40th birthday party.




While it's great that you're empathetic to the plight of a poor street musician, and even willing to support him by throwing a few bob, his live entertainment is NOT protected by any copyright or IP law. So listen (and enjoy) without guilt: you're not stealing anything by doing so.

One of the requirements of copyright is that the work must be FIXED or RECORDED (audio tape, digital, transcribed to paper, etc) into a tangible (physical) form, to be eligible for copyright protection (and only he can give permission for the work to be recorded). A musical performance not recorded is not protected by copyright. So while it's nice to support the artist, there's no copyright infringement concerns.


Quote hollowsun:

Quote Richard Graham:

You watch a DVD at a friend's house, instead of buying one of your own.


That is not an illegal act and the original copyright holder has received a payment.




Are you so sure it's not illegal? Didn't you just deprive the movie's copyright holder from potential profits they'd have earned from selling a movie ticket to see it in the theatre, or the profits from buying your own copy of the DVD? Check the license on ANY DVD, and you'll see it stipulates it's for "personal use only".

The reality is movie companies generally won't be upset even if the definition of 'personal use' is stretched to include family, friends, etc. Just don't start charging admission!

Oh, and since you asked:


Quote hollowsun:

Are you suggesting that if I admire a friend's flower arrangement, I am depriving the florist of income?




Did the florist stipulate that the flowers could ONLY be enjoyed by your friend? Flower arrangements are subject to copyright? Hmmm....



Quote hollowsun:

Quote Richard Graham:

You read a magazine article in WHSmith and don't buy the magazine (of course, you don't do that, do you?


I have done ... in much the same way that I have tried product demos and liked something of it but not enough to buy the whole thing.




Another sound business reason to offer a full-featured demo for software. People don't (often) buy products, sight unseen.

FWIW, the primary utility provided by magazines is the ENJOYMENT and ENTERTAINMENT they offer. It's possible many people are able to derive such benefit while standing at the newsstore (browsing) without purchasing, and thus will see no reason to buy the magazine. However, MOST people will want to purchase a copy (e.g. for reading in the john at home. What they're obtaining by buying is portability and convenience (time-shifting).


Quote hollowsun:

I suppose you're going to accuse me of something for trying on a pair of trousers in a clothes shop and then not buying them because I don't like them.





Huh? Clothing generally doesn't fall under IP law (primarily trademark law, which is relevance to you if you're a clothes designer). From the consumer's standpoint, clothing provides utility (fashion, preventing nakedness, etc), a benefit that is lost if you step outside the store without purchasing it.


Quote Richard Graham:

Why don't these examples count as 'stealing'? The owner of the intellectual copyright in any of these situations, has lost out just as surely as a software designer whose software is cracked and used without payment. Are they different just because they are all (as far as I know) legal?


And remunerated in most cases.




Ah, now we're getting to the root of your gripe: renumeration. You don't think you're getting what you're worth. Hmm, join the club!

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Feefer]
      #418547 - 08/02/07 11:51 PM
Quote Feefer:

Ah, now we're getting to the root of your gripe: renumeration. You don't think you're getting what you're worth. Hmm, join the club!



I'm a fully paid up member

Actually, my gripe is people thinking it's perfectly ok to re-distribute copyrighted material and others who think it's perfectly reasonable to take it.

I don't know how many (if any) *sales* I have lost to the practice - maybe they wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fair enough. And yes, there is some mileage that suggests an illegal download is good promotion (although I have no personal evidence of that). But that is not the point which is that however you try and pitch it and whatever words are used to skirt around the issue, it is illegal to re-distribute and/or download copyrighted material.

I take the point about lending/giving someone a read novel but that's a bit different to making a PDF of it and making it available for tens of thousands of people to download. I have said in a previous post, if someone who has bought one (or more) of my products gives a copy to a mate, I'm not bothered. And I am easy when a studio buys my stuff and uses it with their clients, something most (if not all) EULAs forbid (bizzarely!). But when some twat puts it on a P2P network for tens of thousands of people to download, that really pisses me off ... not because I expect those tens of thousands of people to hand over the $50 for each copy (though that would be nice!) but just out of principle. And it pisses me off that once again, I have to spend my time chasing the host to have it withdrawn/closed .... or spend weeks wrangling with eBay's unhelpful proprietors when I see some arse *selling* my stuff there - Christ, I've had to deal with people there *selling* stuff I give away for free at my website!!!

I think as well that the enormity of the problem is underestimated. You talk about shareware or donations. Ok - there was a time I had a load of stuff that was downloadable for free at my website and there was the ability to make a donation. It couldn't have been simpler - click on the link, make a donation (no fixed amount). I got $10 in two years. To put this into perspective, I had 30,000 unique visitors downloading every month... and received $10 from one person. A friend of mine had excellent piece of shareware tuner software available on his website. Same story ... a few quid in as many years despite tens of thousands of people downloading it! Fortunately for Jim, it is now a thriving commercial product that has been licenced.

And people don't just stumble on stuff and think "Ooooh - let's give that a go ... nah - don't like it... bin it". No! Every day, thousands sit down at their computer, log on to some P2P network or Google to illegal sites and actively go searching for a particular product they want but don't want to pay for. Someone I used to work with downloaded £2,000 worth of fonts and a full working copy of Photoshop doing just that and someone else I know has full working copies of almost every bit of music software that he has procured this way.

The bottom line is that most people have absolutely NO regard for copyright and people think it's perfectly acceptable, for example, to convert a big commercial sound library to Soundfont and make it available for free download, justifying the action with "Well, I did the work converting it - why shouldn't I re-distribute it?" And people think it's perfectly acceptable to take that and use it (and maybe even re-distribute it themselves) whilst the guy who invested a few hundred thousand $$$ in that library is wondering why the hell his house is being re-possessed by the bank! You think I am over-egging the situation .... happened to a fellow sound lib developer friend of mine. As it did to Novation when their V-Station plug-in was cracked and made available at various dodgy sites within days of its release ... and as it did to Akai with their plug-ins - massive investment, man-months of work and months of financial planning and cashflow projections down the drain in a matter of days.

And that - unfortunately - is the reality of the situation.


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: hollowsun]
      #418575 - 09/02/07 12:52 AM
Quote hollowsun:

And that - unfortunately - is the reality of the situation.




I can vouch for that.

And FWIW only this week I downloaded a shareware Windoze utility (we're mostly in Macland here, but I need one PC for office stuff) and I actually paid my $20.

Personally I feel bad about screwing someone for the price of a round of drinks. It seems I may be 1 in 30,000 or something. Strange world.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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R. Spisketts



Joined: 29/01/05
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Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #418664 - 09/02/07 10:15 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

It seems I may be 1 in 30,000 or something. Strange world.




That pretty much sums it up for me. Debate all you want about morality, legality, sociology and philosophy - but if you're in the business of selling software, music or other downloadable media, then it is indeed a strange world.

--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump


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tex
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 1125
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #418676 - 09/02/07 10:35 AM
Quote:

Wrong. Lending the novel is illegal, as it deprives the artist of the revenue generated by selling another copy.




Drivel. You certainly can lend the novel just like you can lend someone your software and dongle etc. You can even give it away. What you cannot give away is the license although it can be transferred.
What you can't do is copy the novel / software and give that to your friend. That's why it's called COPYright. You are not allowed to COPY a creation unless you have the RIGHT to.
UK law : You find an object. You hand it to the police. If no claims for that object turn up after 3 months then you can keep it.
Newspapers on a train can be deemed "left objects" by the owner for others to read. Take it to any court in the world.
But you still can't copy it and if unlawful copies are made it is illegal to use those. As the newspaper has not been unlawfully made you can read it and keep it.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: tex]
      #418680 - 09/02/07 10:47 AM
My ‘Pocket Oxford Dictionary’ copyright statement says that no part may be reproduced… since it contains just about every word in existence, we are all obviously guilty of infringing its copyright so therefore I’m afraid the forum will have to be closed down immediately… ah well, it was nice while it lasted, bye all.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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HK



Joined: 17/01/07
Posts: 12
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #418681 - 09/02/07 10:47 AM
so what happened to the Brocolli and the Thriller tape?


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tex
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 1125
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: Tim.]
      #418683 - 09/02/07 10:53 AM
Quote Tim Rainey:

My ‘Pocket Oxford Dictionary’ copyright statement says that no part may be reproduced… since it contains just about every word in existence, we are all obviously guilty of infringing its copyright so therefore I’m afraid the forum will have to be closed down immediately… ah well, it was nice while it lasted, bye all.




So. If you've eaten the dictionary you're not allowed to say anything?

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
Loc: Not here
Re: Using Cracked Discontinued Software new [Re: tex]
      #418687 - 09/02/07 11:07 AM
You don’t have to eat it, just reading it is enough. But then I’ve already said too much…every word I’ve used is copyrighted.

This could be the quantum leap (backwards) we’ve all been waiting for!

:coat!:

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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