In the "Steinberg is making Cubase users angry" thread that Keef started, we ended up getting *way* off track, and the thread became a discussion about a relatively new piece software called "Reaper". (More at http://www.Cockos.com)

I thought (as others have suggested) that we start a new thread dedicated to Reaper since we were getting way off topic over there.

That thread is: HERE

In the early part of that thread, the discussion turned to Samplitude, and onto Sonar.

Finally, at the bottom of page 2, Scott Dru made the following post, and the discussion turned to Reaper:

Quote Scottdru:

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Quote Doublehelix:

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ADC = "Automatic Delay Compensation".

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DH, Reaper has this at ALL points in the signal path.

I had recently been thinking of upgrading to SX3 (still on VST 5.1), because I really needed ADC too, and I have just been having too many problems of late with VST.

But now that Steinberg have pulled this I've decided I'm not going to follow their hellish forced "upgrade" path.

I have been playing around with Reaper a bit lately, and I have to say that I find it much more intuitive, more problem free, and seems to offer me a much faster work flow than Cubase.

You can also customise the look a bit, which I find very nice. I have a couple of "skins" set up that I can switch between, with different colour schemes, to ease the eye strain a bit. Actually, it's an absolute doddle to make your own skins if you wan. If you have even the tiniest bit of savvy with graphics programs like Photoshop or GIMP, you can even use the graphics from a screen grab of Cubase or whatever, to infuse a little of that look into REAPER.

And, as mentioned before, it just keeps getting updated -- sometimes every few days, or every couple of weeks, and it gets better and better.

Check some of the basic tutorial videos.

FWIW, there are seem to be a number of pro engineers switching to Reaper, because they are happy with the user interface, features, the routing (which is phenomenal), etc. Justin is also working closely with some working pro engineers in the development of this thing, as well as paying very close attention to the suggestions and wish lists of the users, to make sure that it is a program that is intuitive and easy to use, and has the features people really want.

There's also a fair bit of discussion about making things easy to import and export projects to/from other applications.

I also like being able to do so many things on the fly (including while recording) that I could never do in Cubase, like assign recording inputs and arm tracks, editing, inserting plugins and VST instruments, etc. I was in a studio a while back during an overdub session for a hip hop recording, and the producer was editing bits of the overdubs on the fly (in Pro Tools). I remember thinking how much cooler it would be to be able to do some of this stuff on the fly that I couldn't in Cubase.

It's also very fast and light on the CPU (people reporting successfully running reaper on old P2 and PIII computers with ancient sound cards, etc.) without clicks and pops, etc.

And bugs that show up as this thing develops get fixed almost as soon as they show up.

The development of this thing is absolutely the antithesis of the kind of crap we've been seeing from Steinberg and other big software companies, and the whole ethos behind Justin Frankel's software company (Cockos) is really very much user-focused, rather than big profits/big corporation feeding business model we've been seeing more and more of in recent years. To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that it's time to vote with my feet, wallet, etc., and try to support guys like this, and I think it may be in ALL of our best interests to do so, particularly as long as big business is pulling the utterly inexcusable crap it's been pulling.

Also, Justin is a multimillionaire from having had AOL buy out Winamp, Nullsoft, etc. So it seems he's doing this because it's a project he wants to do and believes in, and it's not like this is something that is being done completely on a shoestring and is likely to dry up as soon as the developer gets a "real job", etc., as often happens with projects like this. I think there is a real intent to make it a very serious application that offers serious competition to other professional applications, but also with the intent that this thing isn't going to cost the earth for people to own and maintain.

I've been watching this thing for a while now, and the more I find out about it, the more I like what I see. It's a breath of fresh air, really.

And I think it's a very worthwhile project to keep an eye on, and perhaps participate by making suggestions if you feel it doesn't (yet) have features you need. Given the fact that it's currently unrestricted shareware, and registration is very reasonable if it's something you begin to use regularly in a commercial application, it basically costs you little or nothing to watch and support a project that very potentially could end up being a rather ubiquitous application. If it isn't exactly right for you now, perhaps it will be later, and you won't have paid premium prices for beta software that never gets sorted out.

As an aside, I've also been looking at Zynewave's Podium. Looks very interesting as well. Some very cool features that could make for a very nice, speedy work flow.

Sorry to ramble on about this, but I am getting so sick of this whole planned obsolescence thing, and being forced to upgrade before I'm good and bloody well ready to upgrade. This is the kind of crap that destroyed the U.S. auto makers in the '80s as well. People got so sick of buying cars that were built to break down, and to nickle and dime you to death with repairs, that people just started to buy Japanese cars instead . . . because they weren't intentionally engineered to break down.

That kind of crap REALLY, REALLY, REALLY sticks in my craw.

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I got a chance to check out some of the Reaper videos, and also looked at the Reaper forums, and all of a sudden became very interested in this program. Others have expressed a similar interest, so let's continue this discussion in a dedicated thread.

I will copy and paste a couple of the posts from that other thread to keep us from having to repeat a bunch of stuff.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Scottdru:

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Quote Doublehelix:

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The problem (for me) with a new startup like this is that there is very little outside 3rd party support. For example, Lynx tests their driver updates with all the usual suspects, but I would guess not with Reaper. When CB4 came out, there were several plugins (mostly VSTis if I remember correctly) that did not work well with CB4, so they had to be updated by the manufacturers in order to function. I would guess that very few of these folks test their products with Reaper... at least *YET*.

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DH, I have to tell you . . . one of the biggest things that has pissed me off recently with Cubase is that, even using the copy of Cubase VST that came with my Emu 1820M, I have had all kinds of VERY frustrating issues with getting the EMu and Cubase to talk to each other properly -- including some problems that outright ENDED TWO SESSIONS!

I also found it difficult to get the Behringer BCF2000 working properly with Cubase VST.

I have had NO such troubles with REAPER. As a matter of fact, REAPER talks better with my hardware than Cubase EVER did, and everything is much easier to set up. It's also very configurable -- you can even rename the inputs and ouputs, which can be nice if you have certain hardware wired in to certain inputs and outputs.

All third party plugins I've tried so far have also worked beautifully with REAPER. The plugins in REAPER are better than the native plugins in Cubase, and all the supplied Jesusonic plugins (highly unfortunate name, IMO, but people seem to now be referring to them as JS) are user editable, etc., so if you want to add new features or improve on them, this is an option.

ReaComp is a very interesting compressor (check the tutorial vids on that one).

ReaGate is a very configurable gate with wet/dry controls, lookahead (on hosts that support PDC), hysteresis, hold, noise generator, MIDI event sending (on hosts that support it), built-in filtering sidechain as well as supporting sidechain inputs, and more.

ReaFir is a FFT-based EQ/dynamics processor/noise removal/analysis plug-in. ReaFir can do a lot of types of processing, from standard linear FIR-based EQ, to noise signature detection and removal to per-band compression and gating.

REAPER includes a load of plugins with everything from Convolution to amp simulation.

Hehe . . . another little feature that I dicovered quite by accident (I still haven't run across it in the documentation) is that there is a little slider below the master fader, which looked like a balance adjustment or something, but is actually a speed adjustment. So you can actually slow down the entire session if someone needs to practice a phrase in time and in correct pitch, but at a slower tempo, in order to nail it down. I haven't tried to record something at a slower tempo and then speed it up, but it seems to me somebody's really on the ball here, putting in a feature like that!

As Dave mentions, the effects dialogue boxes seem a little strange and rather plain, particularly at first. My first impression of it was. "OK, that's kinda lame." However, now that I have a better sense of how it works, I like it better than the way Cubase handles it.

One cool thing about it is that you can set up a template with channels for all the different instruments you'd typically record in a session, and then any number of additional channels as send effects channels. Any channel can be run into any other channel either as a group channel or as a send channel, and you can do any kind of side chaining you want, which is something I very much missed in Cubase. Then in each of those channels you can load any and all plugins you would typically use on that instrument, etc., and order them the way you want.

Then, for each channel, you can uncheck the boxes for any and all effects you do not want to use for the time being. As long as the box is not checked, that plugin is turned off and eats no processing power. You could load 100 plugins into a channel, and as long as they are turned off you place no strain on your computer.

Found an effects chain that works particularly well or that you will use on a very regular basis? You can save the effects chain as a preset (it can also save the effects settings with the effects chain), and call up the entire effects chain at a moment's notice.

When you are mixing, if you get an effected sound you are happy with on a given channel, you can quickly and easily render the effected track as a new take and then turn off the plugins to save CPU cycles. Switching between takes is easily done by right clicking on a track and choosing take X. And it's easy enough to go back and change if you later decide you don't like it. This feature is a big help for older computers, like my aging P4 1.6 GHz machine.

I find the handling of multiple takes to be much faster and easier, with fewer mouse clicks, etc., in REAPER than in Cubase -- though the lanes in Cubase/Nuendo can be nicer for comping tracks. But, even so, you have an option to break all takes out into new subtracks, so you can use that in a similar manner to using lanes, and there is actually some talk of implementing an option to use Cubase/Nuendo style lanes in REAPER.

I find that there is a deceptive simplicity to REAPER, and it's easy to overlook or entirely miss some very deep features because of this, and because the documentation is fairly simple and not entirely complete at this point. That's why it's worth dropping in to the REAPER forums on occasion and having a look around. And, as I said earlier, those basic tutorial videos offer some nice insight as well. TBH, it was looking at those that convinced me to look a little deeper . . . at REAPER (sorry 'bout that one ).

Sorry for a bit of cut and paste, here, but:

Wide open compatibility

* Human readable and editable project file format
* Support for on-the-fly reading and writing of many common file formats, including WAV/W64/BWF, MID, AIFF, WavPack, FLAC, MP3 and OGG
* Support for consolidating track edits, to enable easy export of edited audio
* Support for rendering track stems, to enable easy export (with FX and automation)
* EDL import/export for both Samplitude and Vegas (there is also discussion of implementing OMF import/export for applications that support OMF)
* Includes ReaRoute, which enables sending/receiving of audio to/from most other ASIO enabled applications
* Supports ReWire enabled applications
* ReaMote offers realtime network FX processing (use spare machines on your local network for processing) -- though there is a disclaimer that this one is still very much in the Beta stages. But, for example, that also potentially increases the number of UAD or PoCo cards you could use, if you have a couple of spare computers lying around. Cheaper than buying a Magma PCI expander, too!

REAPER is also apparently set up for complete forward and backward compatibility -- unlike Cubase et al.

REAPER is also set up so you can install and run it from a portable drive -- so you can even throw it on a small USB drive and run it in a different studio, etc. (The whole installation package is less than 2MB, FFS.)

User arrangeable user interface. The following windows can be hidden, docked, or floated to meet your needs:

* Track mixer view
* Transport controls
* Undo history
* Media explorer
* Routing matrix
* Navigator
* FX browser
* Track FX chains
* Performance meter

You can easily switch between the docked windows by clicking the tabs at the bottom of the screen. I love this! I am not endlessly opening and closing windows in REAPER.

I don't mean to sound like a fanboy here, and REAPER may not have everything for everybody (yet), but, while I haven't had a chance to use it on a full project yet, I really like what I'm seeing here -- both in what it offers now, and in what it is likely to offer in the very near future.

One of the things I like about this is that there seems to be a very serious mission to offer as broad compatibility as possible, and to get away from the kind of overly proprietary design that makes it more difficult for musicians and engineers/studios to work with each other.

At the very least, I can forsee REAPER being a very handy tool for people to have in their arsenal, even if they also use another more proprietary package.

Again, I haven't had a chance to really use REAPER in anger yet, but I plan to start any upcoming projects in REAPER, so I can push it a bit more to see what happens. But I do know that there are a number of serious, working commercial studios that seem to have switched over from Pro Tools, etc. to REAPER and are extremely happy with it even as it is now.

And a look at the current history list shows version updates every couple of days since at least the beginning of January. Quite in contrast to the Steinberg pace!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Scottdru:

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Configurable GUI -- some screen grabs:

As I mentioned before, the colour schemes and buttons in REAPER can be extensively customised (and quite easily as well).

The default theme is not that great looking, but a lot of people are doing their own schemes and posting them up in the REAPER forums.

REAPER can look much nicer than the various different themes you see in the screenshots on the website.

I've posted up a screen grab of REAPER, playing one of the demo songs, with the theme I'm currently using, which, if memory serves, uses the colour scheme from one preset and the buttons from another. You can have a look HERE. Personally, I find this theme to be very clear, uncluttered and easy on the eyes. I also feel the metering here looks nice and is very clear.

Note the tabs at the bottom of the screen, where you can dock many of the function windows and toggle between them with minimal mouse clicking and movement. Also, you'll notice that, if you select a track, it will be clearly highlighted in a different colour (which can also be changed to your preference) both in the channel settings panel at the left of the screen and also in the corresponding mixer channel.

If you don't like the look of the fader handles, buttons and other icons, you can always copy from a screen shot of your favourite application, edit as necessary in Photoshop or GIMP, and replace the corresponding icons with your own graphics. Screen grab of one of the icon folders from one of the theme presets HERE.

There's another screen grab of what it looks like reassigning track inputs on the fly in REAPER while playing or recording HERE . This is a very easy right click function, rather than having to stop playing or recording, and then go through all kinds of rigamarole pushing multiple buttons and multiple menus, etc. to reassign a track input and arm it for recording in Cubase.

If I've got an artist recording a part, I can add a new track, label it, assign the inputs, arm the track, and have the track ready to go by the time the artist is done recording the one part, and is ready to move on to recording the next part. And I'm not mousing back and forth all over the screen or having to make an excessive amount of mouse clicks to do it.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Scottdru:

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Quote Wurlitzer:

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Quote Doublehelix:

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Sonar looks pretty impressive, but somehow I just can't shake their "home/amateur" reputation. I know this is unfair, and I am being a snob here, but it just can't bring myself to consider Sonar as a professional application.

I *KNOW* this is incorrect, and that they have come a long way since their earlier versions, but it is an ingrained notion nonetheless.

Samplitude looks unfinished, and amateurish is some ways, and doesn't thrill me so far, but I really do need to spend some more time with it.

What else am I missing?

I record 99% audio, and do very little midi (almost none). No loops or samples to speak of (except some sample replacement for drums using Drumagog).

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If you're willing to push that "almost none" to "none", then I'd thoroughly recommend a look at Sony Vegas. I haven't used it since back at version 3 but at the time I thought it had the clearest, most elegant and intuitive interface I'd ever seen on any DAW. Extremely stable too.

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As I understand it, REAPER was actually modelled after Vegas at the start, with the intention of taking that simple, but effective user interface, and developing something that offered more features and flexibility on the audio side for professional users. FWIW.

Quote Wurlitzer:

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Only problem with it is no MIDI, which makes it out of the question for me. I know some use it synced to another app for MIDI, and this is apparently not a big problem.

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I may do a bit of this myself with REAPER and Cubase (or some other MIDI sequencer) if I need some more advanced MIDI programming features that REAPER doesn't yet have. Should be fairly sensible to do, given that REAPER supports ReWire, and also has its own ReRoute features.

For now, I do mostly audio, with various bits of MIDI stuff, but I don't use a lot of the more advanced/automated MIDI programming features at this point (other than automation of faders and occasionally some plugins or external effects. If I can play stuff in and move it around as needed, that's basically what I need for 99.9999% of what I do at this point.

Doublehelix Quote:

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FWIW I use Sonar and love it to bits. But then I'm not a snob.

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That's another thing that I think we need to fight in this industry. There are so many people using so many different sequencer packages now, it's becoming increasingly irrelevant which software you use, or which platform you use. I very strongly feel that the creative process needs to be as platform independent as possible. As a musician, I don't give a f**k what software or hardware is being used -- I just want it to work well, offer the functions I need, be stable/reliable, and sound good. And I don't want it to slow me down in the middle of a creative burst.

Quote Koed:

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OT: Scott, which theme is that?

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It's called Unempty_DarkBlue. It's one I downloaded from the REAPER forum. I'm going to try some tweaking with the icons, etc., to get a look I like even better (when I get some more time). I like those detented buttons in the theme Hagalund posted up. That theme and the colours it uses looks great too!

Quote Doublehelix:

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OK Scott:

Maybe I am an idiot, but I cannot view the images. It looks like I need to join esnips to see them? Bummer. Can you email or PM them to me instead?

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I tried emailing them to you, DH, but it bounced back to me, saying "this user is over quota" or something.

You might try a different browser? I just checked the links using IE (only because IE won't automatically log me in as a user/member at that site), and I had no problem viewing the pics.

Doublehelix Quote:

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One thing that seems to be missing is cooperation from Universal Audio with their UAD-1 card. There seem to be some issues there, which is a bummer since I use those plugs extensively (I have 3 cards in a Magma chassis).

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Yikes! I guess that will be a pretty important issue for you then!

One thing about the way this software is being developed is that it's being run a bit like an open source project -- especially since it can be used as uncrippled shareware or you can register it under a "personal use only" license for only $50.

So you get a lot of users working with it and trying out different configurations and reporting back, etc. So, while there may not be direct "cooperation" with the UAD at this point, the UAD is a pretty popular and important piece of gear in this industry, and, if there are enough people saying they need to be able to use this gear (which I'm sure there are already), Justin will find a way to address it (and perhaps buy a UAD card himself to figure out how to fix the problems).

It's not like Justin is new to developing software that has to run on all kinds of different gear, etc.

There is actually an industry movement amongst a number of signatory software developers (Justin being one of those signatory developers) that holds certain core values at high priority for software development. I don't remember what the name of the group is at the moment, but some of the principles are to develop software that is stable, widely compatible, easy and intutive to use without requiring ridiculous amounts of documentation, and to make sure any necessary documentation is clear and concise. I wish I could remember the name of the group and/or find the link to the website. Very interesting. I'll post it up if I run across it again.

I know some of the other developers in this group have been keeping tabs on the REAPER project, and I remember one of them posting in the REAPER forums, saying that, while he didn't have any real connection to music, he had been watching the development of REAPER because it was an excellent implementation of the core principles of type of software development.

That's one of the reasons I feel that this is one that is really worth following and supporting, because I think we need more of this kind of thing in the industry, rather than big corporations fighting for every last scrap. We all lose out when this stuff happens -- the big software companies, the big record companies . . . all of them. It doesn't need to be like this. I have no problem with people getting fabulously wealthy when they develop products and/or offer services that are superior in quality. But when a company's business model/marketing focus moves from offering quality to spending more time, money and effort shutting other developers out of the market so they can have it all to themselves, then we have a big problem -- and we ALL lose.

I also have to wonder if some of this more healthy, quality/user-focused development might help prevent piracy as well. When big software companies charge premium prices to release beta level software that is full of bugs, or they pull a Steinberg and repeatedly reneg on promised features and fixes, it devalues the software in the minds of many people in the market, and people feel like they are being ripped off.

Likewise, when the big record companies force loads of bullsh*t cookie cutter, throwaway music down the throats of the market, and at the same time push truly talented and interesting artists out of the market, it devalues music as a saleable product. If people find music that they know they will want to keep and listen to over and over for years, they will go out and buy the CD. But if they just want to be able to listen to the current ear candy that they will only tire of when the next new bit of ear candy comes out, they'll download it -- and if there is an option download it for free, then unfortunately many people will go for the free option.

If a really quality piece of software comes along that doesn't cost the earth to purchase, perhaps a lot of people who might not have paid the premium buckage for the big name beta software will pony up a few bucks to support the software company that serves their needs, so that development can continue.

I also think it's a pretty fair idea charging non-professional users a lower price so they can enjoy using the software as a hobby, and requiring a higher fee for professionals who use it to generate income for themselves.

Quote Doublehelix:

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Sonar has just *finally* released version 6.2 which *FINALLY* fixes the issues with the UAD-1 cards that has been going on for a couple of years... A couple of years!!! How about that for response time?

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Ummm . . . better than Steinberg's overall response time?

Anyway . . . I'm really not meaning to try to over-sell REAPER, or to hijack this thread to make it about REAPER; but, especially having looked at some of the background of this thing, I do think that the whole REAPER project is rather an eye opener as to how things COULD be, and I think it is well worthwhile for we users to keep an eye on it, and

I think that the big software companies would do well to take heed as well. But they probably won't take heed unless those who would be their customers FORCE them to take heed!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Hagalund:

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Quote doublehelix:

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One thing that seems to be missing is cooperation from Universal Audio with their UAD-1 card. There seem to be some issues there, which is a bummer since I use those plugs extensively (I have 3 cards in a Magma chassis).

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Well, there was a new relaease today to v1.77 in fact:

* big clock: fix for completely offscreen on startup
* navigator: shows custom track colors, bettervertically shrunk views
* dx/vst: denormal reduction improvements
* vst: optional UAD-1 no-flush mode (prefs/VST) to help avoid munch
* midi editor: CCs show 0/centered events
* midi editor: display for PC shows 1-128
* midi editor: doubleclicking scrollbars zoom out
* midi editor: numpad keys move events when not in step sequencer mode
* midi editor: midi CC moving with events only moves CCs on same channel as events

It would seem that this Justin is on the case! Perhaps that UAD1 fix above will help?

@ScottDru:: You can look at my colur prefs here . Think you have to tick all the little boxes at the top (the one about the buttons isn't marked by default).

Just been checking it out some more..incredibly fast boot-up time (10 secs), and just loads of little features that make me think - why is this possible and I haven't seen it before even though I've shelled out a few hundred quid for steinberg stuff?

I'm going to download the manual and run a project through this baby and if it checks out, this Justin guy can have my money, even though I probably won't get what it costs from selling my copy of C4 studio

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

OK... lots of copying and pasting... sorry about that! I just thought it would ground this new discussion with some of what has been already discussed.

I have not downloaded the demo of Reaper yet, but I am certainly tempted!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

The things that some people do to get their post count up.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I tried Reaper this morning at 3am when I couldn't sleep. First impressions are positive, as it seems easy enough to set up. Does anyone know if it is possible to import multiple wavs simultaneously?

What I use my free copy of cubase Le for, is mixing down the recordings I make with my Zoom H4: when you import these wavs, they line up an sync perfectly, and you can pull them all in 'as a piece'.

I'd consider switching to Reaper if only for the fact I can build up chains of effects.

Does anyone know a decent cheap/shareware/freeware EQ, compressor, and reverb? Reaper seems to lack these, but I could be wrong.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

It really does seem functionally great now. I gave it a shot about 6 months ago and got frustrated at the look of it. That's how fickle I was (am!) -it just didn't feel nice to me. But the specs speak for themselves. I reckon it's time for another go!!!

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[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

It seems very friendly at the moment.

Things like making your own effect chains and then just being able to save them and recall them seems so logical

I will say there is one thingh that Reaper does sstruggle with and thats plugin compatibiliy. I am having a nitemare trying to get EZDrummer to work, just comes up with the template but with no drums, looks like a reinstall could be on the cards.

The other thing which is a little frustrating is the speed in which it renders the wave files (while your recording it seems to take like 2 seconds, then it creates the wave) find it a little off putting.

I am also yet to find a template I love, I can get along with a few of them, but a truly "great" template needs to come out for Reaper to truly shine.

If I could get this sodding EZDrummer working then I would be using Reaper a lot more, but seems like I can only get it working in Cubase SX 3 at the moment.

Very promising program and after a couple more weeks use, I am sure I will be registering the program

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There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Quote John Willett:

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The things that some people do to get their post count up.

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Spoken by the one with a post count of almost 6,000!!! Hehe...

Quote Richard Graham:

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Does anyone know a decent cheap/shareware/freeware EQ, compressor, and reverb? Reaper seems to lack these, but I could be wrong.

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Actually, Reaper seems to have a pretty awesome set of built-in effects, including EQ, comp and reverb. Maybe Scott or other more experienced users can chime in here.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Henry-S:

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It seems very friendly at the moment.


The other thing which is a little frustrating is the speed in which it renders the wave files (while your recording it seems to take like 2 seconds, then it creates the wave) find it a little off putting.

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I dont have it on this pc so cant tell you where but you can change this somewhere in the settings page.

Pretty good idea actually so that you dont have to waste CPU resources on rendering the file.

It seems that many Cubase users are serious about leaving Steinberg due to the endless reasons listed on other posts. So now we have all these threads about other programs we have found. Then we give our opinion about our findings.

Regarding Reaper, my feeling is the program looks nice, but it takes years….years to get a program where it works well, is compatible with many other software, and drivers. Not to mention all the bugs caused by the program, and by bug issues when you use UAD, or an updated driver for a software plug in that is not compatible with the program. I would feel more comfortable if there was a big following and knew someone of the stability of the program and company. Apple, or some other company could buy them out, use some ideas from the program and then discontinue it in a year.

I have looked at some of the DAWs out there, and with being a Cubase user I found I am more comfortable with the work flow and feel of Samplitude. I like the great customer support I already received and I have not found the angry customers on their forums like I do with Cubase. The latest version seems very stable, and things that customers bring up that they would like changed, the company listens to. I emailed them about having a layover on the buttons for the Mackie Controller just like what they have for Logic, Sonar and Steinberg software. They got back to me in a day, told me they have talked to Mackie about this and they are already on it. Not too bad. I never would have received a quick and polite response from some other company’s.

The problem I have is I like Cubase SX3, but I won’t go to Cubase 4. With the special they are having now with Samplitude on crossover’s, do I get it, or stay with the program I like and what works for me now?

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revelationsoundstudio.com

The more time I spent with Reaper the more I like it.
The learning curve is minimal because just about anything you can do to an item is presented on the menu when you right click an item
(now why didn't anybody else think of that ).

Midi editing is still minimal but very functional.
Did some midi recordings with it and (unlike cubase/cakewalk) every midi message got recorded straight away and playback was perfect.
When I hooked up my Kawai to cubase and cakewalk the first time I had all kinds of weird things like missing messages and stuttery playback, which I all got fixed by changing options and configuration.
It's sure nice to see that Reaper seems to understand my Kawai straight out of the box.

It's easy to layer takes and switch/merge between them and reaper has wonderfull little features like 'explode takes to seperate tracks' or simply saving a take or part of it as a seperate midi file.
Going to do some renders with Synthogy Ivory tonight and first impressions are that everything runs smoothly cause I got about 500MB extra memory and less CPU overhead to worry about.
I'll let you know about the stability.

Quote Richard Graham:

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I tried Reaper this morning at 3am when I couldn't sleep. First impressions are positive, as it seems easy enough to set up. Does anyone know if it is possible to import multiple wavs simultaneously?

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I haven't got far enough to see if this is possible. But what I know you CAN do is drag and drop any files into tracks in REAPER, and you can do this quickly and easily from REAPER's in-built Media Explorer. I recommend to open up the Media Explorer and dock it in REAPER's "Docker" (it is a simple right click operation to do so), then you can access this window at any time (along with the mixer and any other REAPER windows you put in the Docker) by clicking on a tab at the bottom of the screen (I love that feature!).

Quote:

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What I use my free copy of cubase Le for, is mixing down the recordings I make with my Zoom H4: when you import these wavs, they line up an sync perfectly, and you can pull them all in 'as a piece'.

---

I don't know how this works in Cubase LE either, as I still use VST, and of course I don't have a Zoom H4 (though my father just bought one on the recommendations of me and y'all in that Zoom H4 thread, and he is very happy with it so far). Is this a Cubase function, or is it a function of the Zoom software?

Either way, even if you drag/drop the files into REAPER, they should all line up perfectly in REAPER at the start point as at should in any DAW.

Quote:

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I'd consider switching to Reaper if only for the fact I can build up chains of effects.

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There's loads more stuff about it that would probably make it worth switching for you. Among other things, REAPER has full automatic plug-in delay compensation throughout the entire signal chain, which Cubase LE doesn't. That means you can set up any number of group channels for mixing, and also put effects on those group channels without having to futz around adjusting for plugin latency manually.

Quote:

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Does anyone know a decent cheap/shareware/freeware EQ, compressor, and reverb? Reaper seems to lack these, but I could be wrong.

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Richard, REAPER has a TON of good quality effects plugins that come with it -- both its own and also the Jesusonic plugins, which are actually very good, and are also user editable! (I'm starting to see people on the REAPER forums posting up their own customised versions of the Jesusonic programs.)

The REAPER compressor is actually quite a nice compressor, with an incredible amount of flexibility. ReaFIR is also a great plugin. AND . . . REAPER also includes a basic convolution plugin. Of course there's also SIR, which is a free convolution plugin (and you can download impulses for any of these at noisevault.com).

There are also some good freeware EQ and other plugins at Voxengo.com, and check in the "Free Stuff" sticky threads at the top of this forum and in the PC forum. "Ambience" is one good freeware reverb plugin that immediately springs to mind, and there are the various Kjaerhus Classic plugs that are free and very decent. Most any of the plugs in REAPER and amongst the many good freeware plugs will be better than what you get in Cubase.

There's also a new freeware plugin that emulates the Pultec EQ (maybe it doesn't do this as accurately as the UAD or others, but it is surprisingly good, and well worth the download) called Pushtec 5A+1.

You can get that one at KVR (you'll have to register/log in to download it): http://www.kvraudio.com/developer_challenge.php

But, with regard to some of the REAPER plugins like ReaComp and Rea FIR, I highly recommend Pipeline's REAPER tutorial videos if you'd like to see just what they are capable of.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Finally, at the bottom of page 2, Scott Dru made the following post, and the discussion turned to Reaper:

I will copy and paste a couple of the posts from that other thread to keep us from having to repeat a bunch of stuff.

---

Hehe . . . it's pretty bad when the forum members have to mod the moderators for taking a thread way off topic.

In all seriousness, though, thanks for doing this. Saved me some time I didn't really have to do the same.

I didn't really mean to take that thread so far of topic, but at the same time I felt it was at least somewhat relevant, in that Steinberg's business model is really pissing people off, and that REAPER's business model seems to be a good one, with incredibly rapid development and incredible response to the users' wishes and concerns.


If Steinberg is watching any of these threads in various forums, they need to take heed.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Quote Koed:

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The learning curve is minimal because just about anything you can do to an item is presented on the menu when you right click an item
(now why didn't anybody else think of that ).

---

This is why REAPER's GUI is deceptively simple. You don't have the clutter of hundreds of tiny buttons, and you don't have to go back and forth across the screen with your mouse to grab tools, etc. There are a few things that happen automatically depending on where you left click on something, and then for everything else you simply right click and find what you want in a menu. There are so many features in REAPER that not yet documented, and it's easy to overlook this.

Quote:

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Midi editing is still minimal but very functional.
Did some midi recordings with it and (unlike cubase/cakewalk) every midi message got recorded straight away and playback was perfect.
When I hooked up my Kawai to cubase and cakewalk the first time I had all kinds of weird things like missing messages and stuttery playback, which I all got fixed by changing options and configuration.
It's sure nice to see that Reaper seems to understand my Kawai straight out of the box.

---

I have seen a number of comments that REAPER's MIDI timing is EXTREMELY tight -- tighter than most any of the other DAWs. But there are still some settings that can adversely affect MIDI timing -- or, more accurately, introduce extra latency. Justin is aware of this, and is working on sorting some of those issues out. So if you do run across problems with MIDI timing, it may be worth checking in the REAPER forums to see if it's simply a setting you need to adjust. I haven't had a chance to test any of this stuff out myself yet.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

I just recently snagged a 1212m and its gaggle of free software. Part of the appeal was the free Cubase LE, Sonar LE and various other software.

So my question is, how does the licensing work exactly. I really don't think I'll ever release anything commercially. But, then again, we may try to sell some CD's through the internet or at a few concerts.

The website is not entirely clear. We don't/won't "run a business" or do paid work for others. I'd like to try Reaper but would not want to pay $200 when I have Cubase LE or Sonar LE to use for "free".

Jim

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My Home Studio Build Thread

Well I just did some midi mixdowns with Synthogy Ivory and I'm very happy.
I've never been able to do a hickup free render with the full Imperial Grand 10 layer model with 64 voices on my system with either Cubase or Sonar.
I actually had some memory and CPU to spare so I'd probably could have upped the voice count a bit.
Not a missed note and it sounds just as tight as it was on my headphones when I recorded it.
Just for that Reaper is worth double the money to me.

Update on my Reaper Usage

Got EZDrummer working, I went into the options and added the VST plugins folder again and seemed to have just worked? Not really sure, maybe it just didn't get it the first time.

Anywho just been jamming with EZdrummer for sometime and adjusting the settings in Reaper. Its really nicely layed out and what I really like is the full screen mode.

Your actually able to use all of the screen and not be losing windows everywhere, its bloody magic. The only way I can describe the program is basically, simple yet complicated. You can easy just click record and hammer in some stuff but if you look under the hood the amount of stuff your able to do is great. The routing possibilities on EZdrummer combinded with Reapers built in routing is just silly.

I feel the card trying to get out of the wallet but going to hold off for one week just to really get to grips

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (06/02/07 10:46 PM)

I can heartily recommend the reaper, it's very quick, stable and intuitive to use, and it's already impressive functionality is growing by the day, come on in the waters lovely

Quote PrinceXizor:

---

I just recently snagged a 1212m and its gaggle of free software. Part of the appeal was the free Cubase LE, Sonar LE and various other software.

---

Only you will know if the features in those applications will suit your needs, or if REAPER will be better for you.

For me, I've had enough of Cubase VST and the interuptions to creative flow that it has caused me -- not to mention the embarrassment and inconvenience when I'm actually recording someone else. I also feel that full plugin delay compensation (PDC) through the whole signal chain is important in a DAW. You have to get the full version of Cubase to get that -- the cut down versions don't have it. I also found the routing limitations in Cubase frustrating at times. But REAPER has PDC throughout, and has had it since the very early days -- and the routing is fantastic.

I was looking at upgrading to SX3, in hopes that it might address some of the workflow issues for me, but, after watching the lastest series of stunts at Steinberg, I think the writing is on the wall for them . . . and even if it isn't, they are going to have to make some serious changes in a very long, negative pattern of customer treatment, and are likely to have to do it fast, if they are to turn it around. At the very least, I'm unwilling to support it. I've watched this crap happen too much with big corporations lately, and it's not a sustainable way of doing business. It's lose-lose for everybody involved except a few top-level executives.

Quote:

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So my question is, how does the licensing work exactly. I really don't think I'll ever release anything commercially. But, then again, we may try to sell some CD's through the internet or at a few concerts.

The website is not entirely clear. We don't/won't "run a business" or do paid work for others.

---

I don't know the answer to that either. Maybe you should email the company and ask, or ask the question in their forum. The developers are in the forums all the time interacting with the users, and watching for reported issues that need fixing.

Quote:

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I'd like to try Reaper but would not want to pay $200 when I have Cubase LE or Sonar LE to use for "free".

Jim

---

Try them all out! See which works best for you. REAPER is currently distributed uncrippled shareware. You can try it out for as long as you need to get a handle on whether it's the right one for you, and then, if it is, plunk down the money when you are ready, at whatever level is the correct one for you. It's pretty hard to lose with a deal like that. And, as others have observed, the learning curve with REAPER is very quick. It is intentionally designed to be so. So it's not like you'll waste a lot of time getting at least reasonably well to grips with an application that you may or may not use.

Also, if you have recorded a bunch of stuff in REAPER, and you decide that you are not going to continue using it, there is a function to consolidate and export all the tracks, so you can load the project into a different DAW.

For that reason alone, I can see this being something that is nice to have for use in the recording sessions alone, just to speed the work flow -- even if you end up exporting everything and doing additional work or final mixes in another DAW.

I'm still using it unregistered for the moment (in large part because I'm completely skint at the mo), but I will probably do a personal use registration soon and, if I begin to use it for income, I'll upgrade to the commercial license. The personal use registration is only $40 -- that's cheap enough for even a bus' ass homeboy like me to afford. And the first paid session I do with it should easily pay me more than enough to justify and afford the $160 upgrade to a commercial license. Seems like a pretty painless, worry-free way to go, as far as I'm concerned.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Quote Blueberry:

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Regarding Reaper, my feeling is the program looks nice, but it takes years….years to get a program where it works well, is compatible with many other software, and drivers. Not to mention all the bugs caused by the program, and by bug issues when you use UAD, or an updated driver for a software plug in that is not compatible with the program. I would feel more comfortable if there was a big following and knew someone of the stability of the program and company. Apple, or some other company could buy them out, use some ideas from the program and then discontinue it in a year.

---

I think this is a myth put about by the software companies. I think you'll find Cubase is much more "amateur" than you think in programming terms. I've known programmers in the past who've looked at the code and they reckon it has always been untidy with bits of disused code littered among the workings which are probably the cause of many "bugs" over the years. Other proofs are the lack of any coherent professional public relations/support crew (the exception being PG on the Wavelab forum who is excellent) & the backwards compatibility and general losing of features from previous versions which points to a company that's losing focus and has been for several years now. The company is bored and tired for the most part with the occasional glimpse of the brilliant concept but far too much is not followed through to completion.
They should have made the program solid and advised any disgruntled users what was a bug, which they then fix, and what isn't plus an explanation of where the user error's are if that's the case.
Oops! Touche. I've just hijacked the thread back haven't I? Sorry.
But after all that I think you'll be surprised at how fast Reaper progresses. I'll certainly give it a go. It's cheap as chips.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Edited by tex (07/02/07 02:20 AM)

Quote tex:

---

I think this is a myth put about by the software companies. I think you'll find Cubase is much more "amateur" than you think in programming terms. I've known programmers in the past who've looked at the code and they reckon it has always been untidy with bits of disused code littered among the workings which are probably the cause of many "bugs" over the years.

---

Why do I detect a strange aroma when reading that post?

Mark

The interesting part about Reaper for me is that the first beta of an OSX version has been released. Oooh... Given that it doesn't need as much resource to run, it could be very interesting to see how that works.

I think that I'll bite the bullet and pay for the non-commercial license - hell, it's only twenty quid or so - and see just how far I can take it and how easy it is to use. I just had a very strange thing happen with the Samplitude 9 demo where I started it and it instantly consumed all resource and almost crashed the machine. Better see what installing iTunes has done to the PC....

What I want to check is how Reaper handles my Liquid Mix and Powercore. When I get round to doing it, I'll post the results.

Now if only someone would do an SX to Reaper conversion utitlity. ...

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote MarkEdmonds:

---

Quote tex:

---

I think this is a myth put about by the software companies. I think you'll find Cubase is much more "amateur" than you think in programming terms. I've known programmers in the past who've looked at the code and they reckon it has always been untidy with bits of disused code littered among the workings which are probably the cause of many "bugs" over the years.

---

Why do I detect a strange aroma when reading that post?

Mark

---

The point of the post is to reduce the size of the "pedestal" that people put software on. The deep programming is only done by one to three core programmers the rest do the wallpaper etc. Just like your common or garden builder there can be a lot of lumps in the wallpaper but it can still be a good job. Steinberg's like a fairly untidy building company is all. But neat small companies like Reaper will come along to chip away at their market and sometimes show the quality up. Clear enough now?

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

It is good to hear that Henry-S got his EZ-Drummer working.

This is the kind of stuff that scares me about Reaper... compatibility.

Software, hardware, midi controllers. I was reading a post on the Reaper forum about using Mackie Controllers, and it is unclear whether the XT units function correctly. I think someone got them to work, but there was no display in the scribble strips, or something. Not sure if he ever got it running...

And then there is the UAD-1 card CPU-munching issue that is the biggest one for me. There was a new release of Reaper a few days ago that made an attempt to address this, but it works for some and not others. The new "feature" can be turned on or off, and when it is "on" the PDC goes away on the UAD-1 cards. Not good. Justin is working on it full-steam, and I am sure he will solve it. It appears that UA is not being too helpful here.

From where I am sitting at the moment, Reaper is very tempting, but looks to be not-quite-ready-for-prime-time, but boy it is damn close!

For me, it is not a cost issue. Reaper is US$200 for commercial use, but I would gladly pay $1,000 for a program that satisfied my needs, was stable, and I felt like I was a valued customer rather than a second-class citizen.

I will be watching this guy with great interest over the next few weeks and months, that is for sure. If they could lick the UAD-1 and Mackie Control issues, I'd probably jump.

What I need to do is to download the demo and give it a whirl myself rather than depend on others to test if for me.

I will try to Ghost my system tonight and then install the demo in the next few days and see what is up for myself.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Thanks, Scottdru, for your fulsome answers! I found the plug-ins last night as it happens, but I've still got a problem trying to use Reaper as a host for my VSTi's: they don't seem to respond to MIDI either from the built-in virtual keyboard, or from my control keyboard, and they don't seem to make any noise when I directly click on their keys! I've looked almost everywhere for something to configure, but I can't find the settings that will make my plug-ins spring into life!

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Doublehelix:

---

What I need to do is to download the demo and give it a whirl myself rather than depend on others to test if for me.

---

It'll be interesting to read about your findings.
I can only say, the more I play with it the more I'm tempted to mix a full project with Reaper.

Not quite ready to drop Sonar all together cause I just switched recently.
But if those updates keep coming on a daily basis like they do now, I won't be surprised if I never look back again.
It may not look the part but it's seriously powerfull.

One of the reasons to switch to Sonar from Cubase was the 64 bit mixing engine. I can really hear the difference with reverbs.
I only found out today that Reaper uses a 64 bit mixing engine all the time with delay compensation on all routes so I'll do the same test I did when I decided between Cubase and Sonar.

My computer is getting a little bit old and with Reaper it feels like a new system. Everything is quicker and the 1.2GB seems to be enough for my most demanding virtual instruments.

And I just found out that I can 'freeze' busses.
(That's cause busses are just tracks in Reaper )

Quote Richard Graham:

---

I found the plug-ins last night as it happens, but I've still got a problem trying to use Reaper as a host for my VSTi's: they don't seem to respond to MIDI either from the built-in virtual keyboard, or from my control keyboard, and they don't seem to make any noise when I directly click on their keys!

---

1) Enable your midi interface under Preferences/Midi devices. All devices are disabled by default.

2) Create a new track

3) Click the FX button and add your VSTi, from the VSTi tree.

4)Right click the Record icon on the track and select Midi Input > Your midi device > the channel or all

5) Record arm the track and click the record monitoring icon to on.

6) Play your keyboard and your VSTi should play.



There are two ways I found to freeze the VSTi audio from a midi track.


A) Create a new track and set it up to receive audio from the midi track. Then arm the new track to record while you playback.

B) Use the 'Apply FX as new take' option on the midi track.


Both work great for me with Synthogy Ivory 1.6

Quote Scottdru:

---

Quote PrinceXizor:

---

I just recently snagged a 1212m and its gaggle of free software. Part of the appeal was the free Cubase LE, Sonar LE and various other software.

---

Only you will know if the features in those applications will suit your needs, or if REAPER will be better for you.

For me, I've had enough of Cubase VST and the interuptions to creative flow that it has caused me -- not to mention the embarrassment and inconvenience when I'm actually recording someone else. I also feel that full plugin delay compensation (PDC) through the whole signal chain is important in a DAW. You have to get the full version of Cubase to get that -- the cut down versions don't have it. I also found the routing limitations in Cubase frustrating at times. But REAPER has PDC throughout, and has had it since the very early days -- and the routing is fantastic.

I was looking at upgrading to SX3, in hopes that it might address some of the workflow issues for me, but, after watching the lastest series of stunts at Steinberg, I think the writing is on the wall for them . . . and even if it isn't, they are going to have to make some serious changes in a very long, negative pattern of customer treatment, and are likely to have to do it fast, if they are to turn it around. At the very least, I'm unwilling to support it. I've watched this crap happen too much with big corporations lately, and it's not a sustainable way of doing business. It's lose-lose for everybody involved except a few top-level executives.

Quote:

---

So my question is, how does the licensing work exactly. I really don't think I'll ever release anything commercially. But, then again, we may try to sell some CD's through the internet or at a few concerts.

The website is not entirely clear. We don't/won't "run a business" or do paid work for others.

---

I don't know the answer to that either. Maybe you should email the company and ask, or ask the question in their forum. The developers are in the forums all the time interacting with the users, and watching for reported issues that need fixing.

Quote:

---

I'd like to try Reaper but would not want to pay $200 when I have Cubase LE or Sonar LE to use for "free".

Jim

---

Try them all out! See which works best for you. REAPER is currently distributed uncrippled shareware. You can try it out for as long as you need to get a handle on whether it's the right one for you, and then, if it is, plunk down the money when you are ready, at whatever level is the correct one for you. It's pretty hard to lose with a deal like that. And, as others have observed, the learning curve with REAPER is very quick. It is intentionally designed to be so. So it's not like you'll waste a lot of time getting at least reasonably well to grips with an application that you may or may not use.

Also, if you have recorded a bunch of stuff in REAPER, and you decide that you are not going to continue using it, there is a function to consolidate and export all the tracks, so you can load the project into a different DAW.

For that reason alone, I can see this being something that is nice to have for use in the recording sessions alone, just to speed the work flow -- even if you end up exporting everything and doing additional work or final mixes in another DAW.

I'm still using it unregistered for the moment (in large part because I'm completely skint at the mo), but I will probably do a personal use registration soon and, if I begin to use it for income, I'll upgrade to the commercial license. The personal use registration is only $40 -- that's cheap enough for even a bus' ass homeboy like me to afford. And the first paid session I do with it should easily pay me more than enough to justify and afford the $160 upgrade to a commercial license. Seems like a pretty painless, worry-free way to go, as far as I'm concerned.

---

Scottdru ...

You are not *seriously* comparing Cubase to Reaper by using Cubase VST as an example are you?

This is 2007, not 1999

Cubase SX3.1 is an absolutely fantastic piece of software and is at the other end of the universe to the sh1tty old Cubase VST. Cubase VST even sounds crap

There's only one routing limitation in Cubase, and that's routing/sending groups to earlier created groups. This will be fixed in Cubase4.1

I'm sure Reaper is great, but please give Cubase SX3.1 a proper evalution. Jeez Cubase VST is so archaic and horrible that even a modern version of windows media player is better

--------------------
Pauls Studio Build Diary at http://forum.studiotips.com/viewforum.php?f=1

As far as the look is concerned, I'd check out the forums and try d/l'ing some of the "skin" packs. Some are QUITE good and the default for many of the power users on the boards there (spent some time there yesterday!).

Jim

--------------------
My Home Studio Build Thread

Koed, many thanks for the advice on using Reaper as a VSTi host, which I think bears repeating:

Quote Koed:

---

1) Enable your midi interface under Preferences/Midi devices. All devices are disabled by default.

2) Create a new track

3) Click the FX button and add your VSTi, from the VSTi tree.

4)Right click the Record icon on the track and select Midi Input > Your midi device > the channel or all

5) Record arm the track and click the record monitoring icon to on.

6) Play your keyboard and your VSTi should play.



There are two ways I found to freeze the VSTi audio from a midi track.


A) Create a new track and set it up to receive audio from the midi track. Then arm the new track to record while you playback.

B) Use the 'Apply FX as new take' option on the midi track.


Both work great for me with Synthogy Ivory 1.6

---

It was point four I got stuck on... the rest was ok!

Cubase LE scores a point here, as it seems less convoluted, but maybe I'm just more familiar with it. I certainly found Cubase convoluted enough when I first started with it!

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I have been wondering though how the f**k its only a 2mb download....

Anyone care to explain? Is it graphics, copy protection?

As far as I can tell Justin is just a very good developer.
He reuses a lot of the components and os libraries.
For example the Jesusonic plugs all rely on the same library and only need a handfull of instructions to be a compressor or a filter.

To be fair..it's a 2MB download which unzips into about 4MB of files. Of which around 1MB is the actualy reaper executable and .5MB for the JS plugs .

'Only' 2MB!

I can remember struggling to fill a fiftieth of that with code...

It's what you're used to, I guess. Remember when software came on 1.44mb floppy discs?

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Just in response to Paul Woodlock who said that we are comparing Reaper to Cubase VST.

The point is, that in the short space of time that Reaper has been out they have given many updates which are actually useful.

The problem is this, what happens if a software company releases an effect/instrument and it has problems in Cubase SX? Steinberg are just going to say "oh well it works on Cubase 4".

Cubase is a good bit of software but the fact that they just turned round after 8 months saying "oh yeah sorry didnt get that update done and it wont be released" when in actual fact they could have just been stringing (and probably were) Cubase users along since the last update. These things are planned and they would know damn soon if they could or couldn't release a patch.

So I will say this, I have seen a far more active community from the Reaper forum than I have ever seen on a Cubase forum. They actually sort problems out and they work "together" rather than a cloak and dagger affair that happens on Cubase.net. All I see is

User asks
Admins will check

and thats it lol

Where as on Reaper you actually have loads of people all helping and in most cases highlighting a problem (which then gets addressed pretty quickly by Justin) or other users will have experience and help.

I am loving Reaper and although as DH said it might not be my "main" I think with a few more updates its going to be hard not to switch!

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

I think we're comparing it because that's what Scott has? only Cubase VST? DH, Koed and others are comparing it to their respective DAW's of choice which I believe are a fair bit more modernt than Cubase VST.

Jim

--------------------
My Home Studio Build Thread

I don't know if that Jesusonic name for the plugins is a joke or serious but either way, it should be dropped PDQ. An extremely unwise name to select IMO!

Mark

Quote tex:

---

Quote MarkEdmonds:

---

Quote tex:

---

I think this is a myth put about by the software companies. I think you'll find Cubase is much more "amateur" than you think in programming terms. I've known programmers in the past who've looked at the code and they reckon it has always been untidy with bits of disused code littered among the workings which are probably the cause of many "bugs" over the years.

---

Why do I detect a strange aroma when reading that post?

Mark

---

The point of the post is to reduce the size of the "pedestal" that people put software on. The deep programming is only done by one to three core programmers the rest do the wallpaper etc. Just like your common or garden builder there can be a lot of lumps in the wallpaper but it can still be a good job. Steinberg's like a fairly untidy building company is all. But neat small companies like Reaper will come along to chip away at their market and sometimes show the quality up. Clear enough now?

---

Well, I suppose it is a little clearer now I understand what you did want to say. However, that has been to say something completely different than standing on a pedestal in the way you did and broadcast to the world your highly indirect "evidence" that apparently the Cubase code is full of bugs due to bad programming and bits of code left in. I'll take that all back if you can show me the facts but otherwise, I don't think you should make empty statements like that, no matter who the recipient is.

Mark

I loaded Reaper last night and was quite impressed. It worked well but I struggled to get the midi side of things working.

I would not use Reaper out of preference to Cubase but now have have a DAW on my laptop that I can use when I've forgotten the damned steiny dongle. It isn't therefore beyond reason that Reaper becomes my main DAW through my predictable absentmindedness.

Quote MarkEdmonds:

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I don't know if that Jesusonic name for the plugins is a joke or serious but either way, it should be dropped PDQ. An extremely unwise name to select IMO!

Mark

---

Because he wasn't a known audiophile??

So is it possible to
1) Autoquantize?
2) Make it so that the selected track is automatically record armed?

Quote Paul Woodlock:

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Scottdru ...

You are not *seriously* comparing Cubase to Reaper by using Cubase VST as an example are you?

This is 2007, not 1999

---

I guess I was too busy partying as though it were . . .

I do fully understand and agree that it's not quite a fair comparison.

Quote:

---

Cubase SX3.1 is an absolutely fantastic piece of software and is at the other end of the universe to the sh1tty old Cubase VST. Cubase VST even sounds crap

There's only one routing limitation in Cubase, and that's routing/sending groups to earlier created groups. This will be fixed in Cubase4.1

---

I've been lusting after Nuendo for a long time, but I am not, nor do I expect to be for some time, in a position to afford it or to justify the extra cost. But when I saw most of the features I was wishing for in SX3, I was hoping to upgrade as soon as I could scrape together the dough.

Quote:

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I'm sure Reaper is great, but please give Cubase SX3.1 a proper evalution. Jeez Cubase VST is so archaic and horrible that even a modern version of windows media player is better

---

I would happily give SX3 a proper evaluation if it were something that was going to be supported for a little while yet, but I have no interest in Cubase 4, so it isn't a logical upgrade path for me.

But the main thing I am really comparing, here, is the difference in the development and business model between what Cockos, Inc. is doing with REAPER, and what Steinblech are doing, which is really a stepping up of the crap they've been pulling for years. I look at Steinberg anymore and, among the many, many sarcastic comments come to mind, I can't keep myself from thinking (or saying) "Houston, we have a problem . . ."


I guess part of what I am trying to say here, too, is that REAPER is an option that can be easily overlooked, and, from everything I am seeing, looking at not only the actual development of the software and the rapid pace, but also the background of the developers and the stated mission of the company, there is something very different going on here. This is not quite the same as some of the other new upstart software companies.

From the Cockos company website:

Quote:

---

About Cockos

Cockos Incorporated was founded in 2004 as a software development company with philanthropic goals.

The engineers who founded Cockos were tired by the frustration and oppression of working within large companies. Large public companies often find themselves slaves to their shareholders and while focusing on money, lose sight of what's really important.

The software development background of Cockos is extensive--our employees have developed end-user software, software distribution tools, peer-to-peer network and media streaming architectures that are used by many millions of people (examples include Winamp, NSIS, Gnutella, and SHOUTcast).

Some rules we try to follow:

* Give new features to customers quickly: the paradigm of batching updates and then selling them is both a terrible experience for the customer, and detrimental to the quality of the software.

* Avoid copy-protection and DRM schemes: these schemes are almost always ineffective, and usually result in a poorer experience for paying customers than for pirates.

* Price software reasonably, trust your customers
Resources should be spent on product development whenever possible. To the consumer, this translates to more bang for the buck.

---

Justin Frankel, the founder of Cockos, Inc. and the developer of REAPER, knows from whence he speaks when he talks about the oppression of large companies, after having dealt with all kinds of crap with AOL, after they bought out his company, Nullsoft.

But, if I've got my information correct, Justin left the whole situation with around $100 million.

This is why I say that it is highly unlikely that this project is actually being run completely on a shoestring, and I suspect that it is also unlikely that the company will be sold off to some other big corporate conglomerate like Steinberg and Emagic.

From my understanding, the general consensus seems to be that Justin is a master software coder (he certainly did a fine job with Winamp), and is also a musician of at least reasonable proficiency (I haven't heard any of his stuff myself, so I don't know).

It seems pretty clear to me that he is doing this because it's something he WANTS to do, and I suspect this isn't a situation where he NEEDS a job, or is trying to make his name in the industry so someone will hire him . . . unlike so many of people who develop freeware, shareware, or low cost software alternatives (and, just to be clear, I am not meaning to in any way diminish, disrespect or belittle the efforts of such people, the quality of their work, or the value of their contributions).

Perhaps some of this goes at least a little way in addressing Blueberry's stated concerns?

For myself, having watched so many of the big corporate shennanigans both in the software and music tech industries (e.g., Steinblech, Micro$haft and many others), as well as watching it from the inside while working at some of the largest multinational/Wall Street legal and financial firms for a number of years, I am seeing an increasing reliance on unsustainable business practices with these big corporations, and I have come to the decision that it is *critically* important for those of us who comprise "the market" and/or "the industry" to stand up against such practices.

And when a company like Cockos/project like REAPER comes along, I think it is in my and perhaps ALL of our best interests to support it . . . or at least to help ensure that things like market ignorance or snobbery don't push projects like this (which could be of real benefit to the entire industry, even if we don't ourselves choose REAPER or other similar projects as our primary use tool) into an undeserved cubby hole, to cause the developers to lose interest in continuing development or support, or to cause failure of the project, etc.

From everything I've seen, this project is something that could really fly, and it could see ubiquitous acceptance as a valuable tool -- either primary or auxilliary -- for both musicians in their home studios and for professional studios. (Anything that makes it easier for musicians to work together is a positive contribution, IMHO.) But it is also an easy one to sleep on, because it isn't as flashy as some, they aren't spending big bux on advertising campaigns (which the end-user ends up paying for anyway) and because its user interface is so deceptively simple.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Edited by Scottdru (07/02/07 11:29 PM)

Quote MarkEdmonds:

---

I don't know if that Jesusonic name for the plugins is a joke or serious but either way, it should be dropped PDQ. An extremely unwise name to select IMO!

Mark

---

I have to say . . . I agree with you 1000% on that one. I think they really need to change the name if these plugins are to remain part of the REAPER distribution, and if REAPER is to gain wide acceptance.

There are potentially negative connotations no matter what one's view may be on religion. Certainly it's hard to take something seriously that is given such a controversial moniker. And, with the huge number of recording studios here in the U.S. that specialise in Christian music, etc., I can imagine that having a recording application that uses plugins named "Jesusonic" would be pretty much a no go for those studios, because no matter that even a majority might be able to have a sense of humour about it and/or look past it, there will invariably be at least someone who will view it as blasphemous, and would absolutely boycott a studio for even considering using even one piece of software with a name like that.

Those studios aren't going to want to risk losing income over something like this.

AS to the origin of the name, it is, of course, entirely tongue in cheek. I think there are a couple of things it could have come from, and perhaps it's a combination of the two. First, the names of the two developers are Justin and Christophe (Jesu Christos? ). Second, I believe these effects were initially developed for a hardware implementation, and, if you look at the picture first prototype of the Jesusonic hardware unit (aptly named the "Jesusonic CrusFX 1000"), you might get an idea why they ended up calling it "Jesusonic". (See Jesusonic website.) The second prototype was a more "secular" design -- the Jesusonic SKULR 500.

They actually have a thread on the REAPER forum discussing potential marketing slogans. I've actually been meaning to make this point about the Jesusonic name there. Perhaps others may want to make their own statements there as well.

I can't see keeping the name as is being a good plan for the company . . . from any perspective, really.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Hear hear

Well said Scott.

Quote tex:

---

I think you'll find Cubase is much more "amateur" than you think in programming terms. I've known programmers in the past who've looked at the code and they reckon it has always been untidy with bits of disused code littered among the workings which are probably the cause of many "bugs" over the years.

---

You know people who have looked at Steinberg's SOURCE CODE? I am sure that you will forgive for considering you a LIAR until such time as you can prove it.

Out of curiosity, how many of these dissatisfied Cubase users are actually selling their licenses? Because until they do so, it is not possible to take their criticism seriously.

Edited by B_Malpani (07/02/07 07:58 PM)

Quote:

---

I don't know if that Jesusonic name for the plugins is a joke or serious but either way, it should be dropped PDQ. An extremely unwise name to select IMO!

---

Oh! Gawd. Jesus (and for that matter Muhammed) were names before the religions had them and I'm sure they are big enough not to mind them being used yet again. I'm pretty sure you must think that half of Mexico should change their names then. A friend of mine named his product after his son and the same could apply here.
If Jesusonics offends a religion then that religion is seriously weak. Jesusonics could also be a name with great religious respect behind it.
Go to your church and pray for something meaningful.
And stop hijacking the thread with mindless drivel.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Edited by tex (07/02/07 07:49 PM)

Quote B_Malpani:

---

Quote tex:

---

I think you'll find Cubase is much more "amateur" than you think in programming terms. I've known programmers in the past who've looked at the code and they reckon it has always been untidy with bits of disused code littered among the workings which are probably the cause of many "bugs" over the years.

---

You know people who have looked at Steinberg's SOURCE CODE? I am sure that you will forgive for considering you a LIAR until such time as you can prove it.

Out of curiosity, how many of these dissatisfied Cubase users are actually selling their licenses? Because until they do so, it is not possible to take their criticism fairly.

---

You can call me anything you like darling but other people do work in programming and some have worked on commercial code. Actually the code does work quite well despite imperfections. At present it's only partly the Cubase program to blame for grievances. Most of the dissatisfaction is from the company attitude. As I explained to someone earlier programmers are not brain surgeons but people seem to treat them with god like reverence and they take themselves seriously then a little program like this comes along and shows up the imperfections. Which department do you work in?

ps. I did put the word amateur in quotes so as not to get it taken that seriously. It's obviously not that simplistic.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Edited by tex (07/02/07 07:59 PM)

Quote tex:

---

Quote B_Malpani:

---

Quote tex:

---

I think you'll find Cubase is much more "amateur" than you think in programming terms. I've known programmers in the past who've looked at the code and they reckon it has always been untidy with bits of disused code littered among the workings which are probably the cause of many "bugs" over the years.

---

You know people who have looked at Steinberg's SOURCE CODE? I am sure that you will forgive for considering you a LIAR until such time as you can prove it.

Out of curiosity, how many of these dissatisfied Cubase users are actually selling their licenses? Because until they do so, it is not possible to take their criticism fairly.

---

You can call me anything you like darling but other people do work in programming and some have worked on commercial code. Actually the code does work quite well despite imperfections. At present it's only partly the Cubase program to blame for grievances. Most of the dissatisfaction is from the company attitude. As I explained to someone earlier programmers are not brain surgeons but people seem to treat them with god like reverence and they take themselves seriously then a little program like this comes along and shows up the imperfections. Which department do you work in?

---

In other words, you really do not know anyone who has seen the source code. So I was correct - you are a liar.

Oooh look. Someone who joined today and whose only posts are to flame someone else with a different point of view. We have a word for people like that. Do you remember what it is, children?

That's right. He's a 'Troll'.

Let's not feed him and see if the nasty man goes away.



--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote Dave B:

---

Oooh look. Someone who joined today and whose only posts are to flame someone else with a different point of view. We have a word for people like that. Do you remember what it is, children?

That's right. He's a 'Troll'.

Let's not feed him and see if the nasty man goes away.

---

The "different point of view" is in regard to telling barefaced lies. Tex is in favour of lies; I am against it. I will assume you are on Tex's side.

B_Malpani:

Please read the SOS Forum Rules, and make sure you are in compliance with said rules, before you make any further posts.

First: Whilst we welcome dissenting opinions, your approach here is unnecessarily aggressive, and your attacks are personal. This approach is not welcome here in the SOS Forums. If you want to debate, stick to productive debate of the facts and the issues at hand, rather than resorting to name calling (which is not even remotely productive).

If you have some information to offer that is based in substance, by all means you are welcome to discuss it, though you are really taking the thread quite far off topic. But we won't tolerate unnecessary provocation and escalation.

Second: Do you work for Steinberg or have a direct interest? It sound to me like you must, unless you are simply trolling. If you have any such interest, please state your interest.

Pleased be advised that if you continue in the aggressive manner you have taken up to this point, you will be banned and your posts will be deleted, to eliminate the wasted space in this thread.

If you feel the need to debate the position I am taking on this matter, you may PM me, and I will discuss anything reasonable, but I am unwilling to allow this thread to be taken further off course with this childishness.

Consider this your first and last warning.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Speaking as a software developer myself, I can tell you that Cubase will have bugs, and there will almost certainly be bits of unused code hanging around here and there, probably not much.

Have I seen the source code? No, but any large size program will have bugs to a greater or lesser extent, it's inevitable.

My area is in flight controls and other aviation system, so complex and involved (and have somewhat more serious consequences than a missed beat should they fail!) and the testing is indepth and involved, and yet the odd bug still gets through from time to time. Steinberg will not be testing to the level that we have to. I'm sure their developers strive to do the best they can, but bugs will get through.

--------------------
* Soundcloud *
* Bandcamp *

Quote tex:

---

Oh! Gawd. Jesus (and for that matter Muhammed) were names before the religions had them and I'm sure they are big enough not to mind them being used yet again. I'm pretty sure you must think that half of Mexico should change their names then.
A friend of mine named his product after his son and the same could apply here.

---

Yes . . . but . . . was your friend's name GOD (or, for that matter, YHWH)?

Quote tex:

---

If Jesusonics offends a religion then that religion is seriously weak. Jesusonics could also be a name with great religious respect behind it.
Go to your church and pray for something meaningful.

---

It isn't necessarily "a religion" that might be offended by such a thing as it would be an individual or a group of individuals. One cannot dictate another's religious views, and certainly someone who is running a business would be extremely unwise to try.

I personally think God has a sense of humour . . . others may not believe there is a God or other supreme being/spirit, etc. But certainly there are people amongst the Christian religion who might reasonably believe that naming a software tool something like "Jesusonic" falls afoul of the "thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain" commandment. And it is their right to hold their beliefs.

The last thing the owner of a professional studio is going to want to do is to enter into a debate with a potential client as to why the client should not find such things offensive.

No matter what your beliefs, this is just reality. Unless you happen to have so many people knocking down your door to throw money at you that you feel you have plenty of room to discriminate against people who don't believe exactly as you do, without hurting your business in any way.

And, as a studio owner, you need to be mindful of the client's comfort. Even if you have the debate, the artist doesn't want to have something like that niggling at the back of his mind and distracting him/her while he's trying to make music.

Quote:

---

And stop hijacking the thread with mindless drivel.

---

So . . . while I'm at it . . . I'll remind you as well, tex, that, while open, constructive debate is encouraged here, this kind of dismissiveness (as well as making personal accusations based on broadly sweeping assumptions) is not productive and not acceptable here. It is only mindless drivel to you, from the standpoint of your own personal views, but I think those who are discussing that particular issue have a broader perspective in mind, and it is a legitimate and very realistic concern with regard to whether or not REAPER could gain the kind of ubiquitous acceptance in the industry to sustain it as a viable alternative.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Well Steinberg did leave the Yamaha DSPF code from SX in C4, all unconnected and ready to go wrong and here's the thread that proves it:

http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=56996

On the other hand, that Reaper thingy is really rather tasty.

Aloha.

Quick update. I scanned my vst plugins directory and everything that wasn't linked to SX/VST was accepted. So I plugged a LiquidMix instance onto the drum folder and that was fine. Set up a track for FX and used the Powercore reverb and that worked ok. I was especially impressed by the send / recieve options in the routing - allowing you to see not only where you are routing to, but what is being routed to the track. Nice touch..

Sadly, I'm about the only non-UAD user left on the planet ( ) so I can't comment on how that works. But the LM and Poco just drop in which is damned good!

The other interesting point is that I downloaded a version last week to evaluate on this, my general purpose machine and by the time it had got to this evening, there was a brand new build available with more features/fixes. Cor!

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Personally think the whole Jesusonic is not a big issue. Its just been used as a joke and I hate to say it but the developer can call the plugins whatever he likes, regardless if one religion thinks its good or bad.

I seriously doubt they sat down and thought

"hey guys shall we try and offend a religion with this name?"

Of course they didn't, they are just taking a light hearted view about a subject everyone takes soooo seriously.

But seriously this has no actual part in whether the software does its job or not. Personally the developer can call things what he wants, I don't see anyone who uses the Asio4All driver with

Simple settings - George Bush
Expert settings - Einstein

but yet loads of people use those drivers and you don't see people saying "but this is unpatriotic!!" or "this is offending our president".

Think some things are just becoming over analysed and really this has no bearing on the software at all. Your free to think what you want and if some people think its out to offend thats "your" opinion. I see boxsets of Monty Python selling all over the world and "Life Of Brian" around in the shops and still being shown on tv.

Basically

Its your personal view and you would be better bringing it up with the software developer and on the Reaper Forum than on this post.

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (07/02/07 11:06 PM)

Quote Henry-S:

---

I don't see anyone who uses the Asio4All driver with

Simple settings - George Bush
Expert settings - Einstein

but yet loads of people use those drivers and you don't see people saying "but this is unpatriotic!!" or "this is offending our president".

---

Yes, but I think most musicians and people in the music industry (other than perhaps the record company execs) at large are highly unlikely to be Bush supporters (though that balance may change quite a bit in the Christian music industry), and don't have the mindset that disagreeing with the pResident is unpatriotic.

Anyway . . . if you are referring to my comments, Henry, I'll clarify that personally I'm not particularly bothered by it (and, while I personally do believe in a higher power and I was raised in a Christian environment, I actually I'm not too big a fan of organised religion myself, but am tolerant of other religions as well as atheism), I know for a fact that there are people in the world who WOULD be bothered by it, and, particularly here in the U.S. market, it could prevent REAPER from being adopted by studios that specialise in Christian music. That's not a personal issue, it's just a reality with regard to a given segment of the industry here in the U.S.

My concerns are not regarding my own personal feelings about the name Jesusonic, but rather for the success of REAPER and or other small companies that might initiate projects like this.

[BTW . . . I'll just state here that I do not work for Cockos, Inc or have any connection whatsoever with the developers of REAPER, in case anybody had any doubts or suspicions!

My interest and support for the REAPER project is based more on social motivations, given the trends I see with regard to big corporations and my desire to see a return to quality-based, customer-focused business models, and also because I really like what I'm seeing so far and I really DO believe that people may find it worth a closer look, etc.

For some of these same reasons I tend to want to support smaller companies making very high quality, reasonably priced products such as Voxengo, PSP Audioworks and other similar companies, rather than buying products from companies such as Waves, etc.

I don't like to be forced into buying things and needlessly upgrading. That kind of thing all too often becomes a type of indentured servitude, and I've got too many better things I want to accomplish in this short life time than to waste it being someone's indentured servant. ]

Speaking of which . . . it's getting long past time for me to get cracking on seeing how my KAT midiKITI, Dauz pads and Emu Emulator X interact with REAPER! Started to put the kit together last night, but was too tired to finish.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

It wasn't just aimed at you Scott, Can't remeber the other person who posted.

I was just saying that in America (where you are, so you know more than me). I had the feeling that this guy George Bush was voted in by the "majority" meaning people obviously respect the guy and think he makes a good leader (I suppose each to their own). Making fun of him in ASIO4ALL seems more widely accepted than having a little fun at religion, I was just suggesting that the name isn't that bad and plenty of Americans who voted for George Bush probably use ASIO4ALL

I however think there are more pressing issues with Reaper that need to be addressed and literally the plugins could just be renamed "Reaper Plug". It would make no difference to their functionality and would stop this whole backlash your refering to.

But this so called "backlash" your preparing for (or suspecting would happen) isn't really close, because I cannot see any major studios adopting a program which can have random crashes with some plugins, midi editing which is below the level of Cubase, Sonar and Logic, and of course the support from plugin developers (this will increase soon though i suspect!).

So in summary, I understand exactly what you are saying. I just feel its a little like putting the cart before the horse in the aspect of Reaper becoming the most used DAW software in USA and being rejected by christian studios. The name of the plugins could be changed in about 5 minutes and probably will be, but I would prefer they sorted out the Midi piano roll than spent the 5 minutes changing the plugin names

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (08/02/07 12:13 AM)

Well my intolerance of intolerance is getting me into warm water again. I was going to suggest that the plugin names be changed to SantaSonics but I realised that dyslexic Satanists may be offended. Sorry, all.
Please can any other comments on my previous replies in here be carried on in the other, Cubase relevant, thread.
I think we've caused enough ruckus to this subject.
I'm looking forward to using Reaper and will call here for assistance if I need it. Thanks all.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Agreed the name may cause some offence in certain circles.

If people dont like it though they can use something else.

Please meet the Jesusonic CrusFX 1000, a hardware implementation of the Jesusonic engine.

Quote tex:

---

I realised that dyslexic Satanists may be offended.

---

They worship the drivel.

Just bought a Reaper license. You sods. Just when you think it's safe to take your eyes off your wallet.

Quote Koed:

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Please meet the Jesusonic CrusFX 1000, a hardware implementation of the Jesusonic engine.

---

I have no idea what this is but I want one

Quote marsnic:

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It isn't therefore beyond reason that Reaper becomes my main DAW through my predictable absentmindedness.

---

Awesome! The ultimate ad slogan for sure

And scottdru and others, thanks for the kind words about REAPER!

Don't let the religious shennanigans/accusations throw you off, we have both a hardcore atheist and a Jehova's Witness in the development chat at nearly all times and we all get along, we concentrate on making the REAPER experience better for all concerned

religion is someone else's job...non overlapping majesteria and all that

Quote pipelineaudio:

---

religion is someone else's job...non overlapping majesteria and all that

---

If that is the case, then why did Justin name the plugs as he did?

What you should say is that "you are going to name the plugins whatever you want no matter what the religious folks feel".

The choice of names brings you into the religious argument, period. I'm sorry, but your response is a cop out.

It is like naming a plugin "Pollack-asonic", and then claiming that race bias is someone's else's job. (no offense to my Polish friends here, just making an analogy.)

Its a crap name, and a cop-out explanation. Get your head out of the sand and see it for what it is. It is a religious statement, or in this case, an "anti-religious" statement. "...religion is someone else's job..." sheesh! If that was true, then you would change the name.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

FWIW, there is some interesting (and intelligent, IMHO) debate on the subject of the Jesusonic name in an older thread on the REAPER forum here.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Its a crap name, and a cop-out explanation. Get your head out of the sand and see it for what it is. It is a religious statement, or in this case, an "anti-religious" statement. "...religion is someone else's job..." sheesh! If that was true, then you would change the name.

---

Have you ANY evidence, whatsoever it is an anti-religious statement?

Anything to indicate this is the case?

Even the slimmest of straws?

Maybe you could look for the developers view on the subject instead of making things up.

Quote pipelineaudio:

---

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Its a crap name, and a cop-out explanation. Get your head out of the sand and see it for what it is. It is a religious statement, or in this case, an "anti-religious" statement. "...religion is someone else's job..." sheesh! If that was true, then you would change the name.

---

Have you ANY evidence, whatsoever it is an anti-religious statement?

Anything to indicate this is the case?

Even the slimmest of straws?

Maybe you could look for the developers view on the subject instead of making things up.

---

I find it quite funny that you chose to zero in on that comment and ignore the whole point of my post.

Your comments were that you chose to stay out of the religious aspects of the issue, and my point was that by choosing that name, you have done nothing of the kind. And whether you or Justin realize it, it is an anti-religious statement, no matter what the original intent.

Just like the Swedish comic who made a cartoon of Muhammad that offended half of the Muslim world. He thought it was funny, and did not intend it as an anti-religious statement. He was just making a joke as he put it, similar to Justin's use of the word Jesus.

Now of course you can on and on about how many folks in the world, especially in Latin America that have the name "Jesus". Again, a cop out, and both you and I know it.

My point is that there are a lot of folks that will never take you seriously with a name like that. It is reality. Like it or not. Call them wimps if you like, it doesn't really matter to me. It is just a fact.

I am not even really trying to take a side on this, just pointing out a fact, and calling you out on your comments that you are "staying away from the religious aspect".

I was making comments in response to your statement, which I found faulty. I was really making no personal judgment calls on the name itself, just your attempt to run away from the responsibility.

I find it funny how you are programmed to respond in the way that you did, assuming my intent.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I thought it was a Danish comic strip..

Anyway, as the author of REAPER/Jesusonic/etc I can speak to this:

Jesusonic is in no way trying to be offensive to Christians. I am an atheist, but I do find the Christian concept and underlying message of Jesus to be a great one-- one that many Christians seem to forget about. So Jesusonic is there to remind us all to love our neighbors/forgive/etc etc..

What's offensive about that?

-Justin

Edited by deadbeef (12/02/07 02:47 AM)

Quote Doublehelix:

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Your comments were that you chose to stay out of the religious aspects of the issue, and my point was that by choosing that name, you have done nothing of the kind. And whether you or Justin realize it, it is an anti-religious statement, no matter what the original intent.

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Again you claim, and again with no evidence that this is an anti-religious statement.

It isnt, as Justin says

But it matters not, regardless of which religion is right, and even regardless of which religion is in power in any particular location, 2+2=4

One tool mouse operation is cool

A responsive developer really makes DAW's happy

none of these things change or ARE changed by any religious concepts, therefore, non-overlapping majesteria

Now anyone can hold up a pin during sewing class and start screaming about how many angels could dance on the head of it, but it wont make one bit of difference to the next stitch

Quote pipelineaudio:

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Now anyone can hold up a pin during sewing class and start screaming about how many angels could dance on the head of it

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All of them.

I don't care one whit what you call your plugs, but if somebody tells you they feel offended by your actions, you telling that they don't really, is a rather foolish thing.

Edited by S G H Houbart (12/02/07 08:26 AM)

Quote S G H Houbart:

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Quote pipelineaudio:

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Now anyone can hold up a pin during sewing class and start screaming about how many angels could dance on the head of it

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All of them.

I don't care one whit what you call your plugs, but if somebody tells you they feel offended by your actions, you telling that they don't really, is a rather foolish thing.

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Ophir Fuchseque! Take it to .alt.religion, you lot!

Could somebody PLEASE post something informative and interesting about Reaper on this thread?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Something informative about reaper?

It runs great with my UAD, no problem whatsoever.
There's even a VST function that's great for UAD and that's the reveal UI thingy.
It basicaly just gives you a simplified version of the parameters available for any particular VST.
Those of you who've worked with the UAD plugs know that the dials are allmost impossible to read, for authenticity.
But a quick click on the UI button and those shiny graphics make way for a bunch of sliders with readable numbers.
Real handy to remember that perfect LA-2A setting with or make that final one tenth adjustment

So that's now confirmed that it runs with UAD cards, Powercore (PCI anyway) and Liquid Mix units. Very impressive. That covers most of the effects plugins and I am assuming that the instruments are also well catered. I will be interested to see just how much of a strain my Wavestation places on my system under Reaper - under SX it is a huge resource hog and it will be interesting to see if there is a difference.

Does anyone know if there is a 'freeze' function for midi yet?

From my point of view, if there were a drum editor (I see that it is well represented in the 'wish list' already) then I would be quite happy. I also would like to see Reaper go down the 'combined midi and audio / instrument' concept for external synths plugged into the soundcard. I think that tonight I will try and see if I can set up ins/outs for my outboard fx and see how that goes.

And I am over the moon about the whole OSX thing. Big thumbs up there - that will make Reaper one of the few cross-platform DAWs out there. Could well be another nail in Steinberg's coffin...

(Guys, can we _please_ just not go on about names anymore ... pretty please ..? )

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote Dave B:

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So that's now confirmed that it runs with UAD cards, Powercore (PCI anyway) and Liquid Mix units. Very impressive. That covers most of the effects plugins and I am assuming that the instruments are also well catered. I will be interested to see just how much of a strain my Wavestation places on my system under Reaper - under SX it is a huge resource hog and it will be interesting to see if there is a difference.

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My wavestation VSTi crashes reaper every single time. I'd be interested to know if the same thing happens to you.

I had a go with Reaper over the weekend doing 16 tracks of simultaneous 44.1kHz 24 bit recording. It kind of worked at the lowest latency setting on my RME interface (64 samples) but there were occasional glitches. Increasing the latency seemed to cure this.

The great thing about Reaper is that it seems totally logically laid out - if you are familiar with Windows conventions you'll find your way around very quickly. The list of included plug-ins seems very comprehensive including things like an exciter that actually seems to work!

One downside is that it doesn't include a built in audio editor for really fine scale work but, for me at least, this doesn't matter as the program I usually use, has a great editor which can be integrated into Reaper so that just double clicking on the audio brings up Auditions editor. I would also like to see a more comprehensive mixer which includes plug-in information and send levels for each track.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Dave B:

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Does anyone know if there is a 'freeze' function for midi yet?

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Try the 'Apply FX to new Take' option on your miditrack.
If you run into trouble with your VSTi, there's an option in the preferences to do all renders/applyfx in realtime.

Quote James Perrett:

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I would also like to see a more comprehensive mixer which includes plug-in information and send levels for each track.

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According to the wiki and what I've read on the forums, that's exactly what's being worked on for one of the next releases.

Quote pipelineaudio:

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Again you claim, and again with no evidence that this is an anti-religious statement.

It isnt, as Justin says

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I also thought I made the point that it matters NOT the original intent. Something can be viewed to be anti-religious regardless of the original intent of the author. I did make that point, which you chose to ignore I guess. Justin can tell us all he wants about his original intent, but all that matters not if it offends a religion.

I was honestly not trying to make a moral comment, but rather a logical and business comment, and I stand by what I have written.

Back to Reaper...


It is obvious that we are all interested in what Reaper has to offer, including Justin's responsiveness and development cycle. That is why I started this thread to begin with, to give it some visibility, not to argue about a stupid name.

For me, and many others, we are fed up with Steinberg, and I know that I for one will never give them another penny of my money.

At this point for me, it is between Reaper and Samplitude. Reaper is exciting, but still has a ways to go to convince me that it is ready. Things like getting the UAD-1 issues worked out and support for multiple Mackie Control units seem like they are *almost* there.

I am convinced beyond doubt that Reaper is going to take this market by storm, but it needs a little time to get out to the masses where some SERIOUS system testing can go on with many hundreds of systems. As this thing grows, it is going to gain stability and compatibility with more and more systems and plugins, and that is what is going to push it over the edge.

I still say the marketing model needs updating, but I am obviously not going to convince anyone here of that. I feel it is a mistake, and Justin et. al. are going to defend it to the death out of principle, rather than take the safe and tested road. Good for you. I wish you luck. Seriously.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Huh, well if you ask me, I think REAPER and Justin are very inconsiderate, and here's why:

1. As I've always been more of a 'performance' orientated DAW user (as opposed to advanced editing and sound manipulation), I decide that I don't use many of the 'advanced' features in my DAW set up (Cubase SX3 and Pro-Tools LE), so I make the change to TRACKTION 2 and think it's the best thing since sliced bread!

2. Then I read on a number of forums all the excitement about REAPER so I download it to casually check out.

3. and despite having just spent £107 on Tracktion 2 (full boxed version with extra plugs, not bundled version), I am sitting thinking "hang on, this is better than Tracktion 2 in almost all respects!!!"... oh no !!).

4. So, despite having just changed my signature to reflect my new love of Tracktion 2, I have now had to change it once again to reflect my fast directed love towards REAPER!

seriously folks, for those that haven't tried it, REAPER is just so great in every respect. As others have said, the 'right click' menus are sooo context specific that you always have the tools you need right to hand. It's just wonderful. I have no issues with any of my VSTi's and CPU load on my ageing Dell P4 is so much lighter than with Tracktion 2 (which was already decent compared to Cubase and PT).

From a DAW perspective, I am hooked. I have laid the anchor down with REAPER and will be supporting Justin by making this my permanent DAW going forward and by buying a license.

About the "Jesusonic" and other 'contraversial' names. It is sad that we now live in an age of extreme politically-correct-oversensitivity. It is utter nonsense that a developer can't give a product a name that is associated with a religion. To me, it would be blasphemous to call the plug-in "Jesus Sucks", but to just refer to Jesus' name - how can this be offensive ?

Would the same have been said if he'd called a plug-in "Krishna" ? or "Buddha".... ?

....no way. People would only start rumbling where the reference is to a Christian or Muslim reference. Such is the state of friction in the world between those religions at the moment. But that should not mean that a developer can't use a religious reference as a name.

As well as all the protection for the oversensitive religions, what happened to rights of exression and the right of free speech ?

If we were experiancing a "cold war" due to oil possession, (as opposed to religion), would a audio software developer get scorned for calling his new brickwall limiter "The Barrel" ?

I truly don't intend to offend any Americans on this post but I think this is a subject where there is a chasm of differing attitudes between the shores of 'the pond'. Having good friends (my lyricist and her family actually) who live in the middle of the bible belt in the US, I have seen a number of anecdotes where benign reference to Christianity causes great over-reaction. We are all entitled to our beliefs, and we are all entitled to respect but that extends (in this case) to the developers' free expression and choices, as well as to the followers of the world's religions.

Now, Anyone fancy a boxed version of Tracktion 2 ?



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What it says on the tin...

Quote Doublehelix:

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I was honestly not trying to make a moral comment, but rather a logical and business comment, and I stand by what I have written.

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Well quite, and however much people shout Ophir Fuchseque, get used to the smell people, 'cos it'll be coming around and around and around again. Without end.

Quote Doublehelix:

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For me, and many others, we are fed up with Steinberg, and I know that I for one will never give them another penny of my money.

At this point for me, it is between Reaper and Samplitude. Reaper is exciting, but still has a ways to go to convince me that it is ready. Things like getting the UAD-1 issues worked out and support for multiple Mackie Control units seem like they are *almost* there.

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Well I've used Sam 7 since SX1. I'd rather pay a few bucks to a developer who actually listens to his customers and tries to build something exciting than pay thousands to a bunch of intolerant, arrogant and bigoted losers, which is what Steinberg has become. Reaper's fun. That's worth supporting in this day and age. My way or the highway? Autobahn.

Quote Doublehelix:

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Quote pipelineaudio:

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I still say the marketing model needs updating, but I am obviously not going to convince anyone here of that. I feel it is a mistake, and Justin et. al. are going to defend it to the death out of principle, rather than take the safe and tested road. Good for you. I wish you luck. Seriously.

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This is a fair statement

I hope this wont disappoint you, but REAPER's whole reason for being is that the safe and "tested" road SUCKS

it doesnt suck a little bit, its a total joke

So far the paradigm has mostly been audio apps built by marketing engineers

good riddance to that crap. With REAPER we have an app built by audio engineers

It took TEN YEARS for the marketing engineers of native apps to come up with a halfway sensible monitoring system!

Instead in three months of REAPER's birth I was already using it in one of L.A.'s best rooms in lieu of a trident A/PTHD combo

The last two posts by S G H Houbart and Pipelineaudio both have really great points in them, and I appreciate your comments.

I really need to find some spare time to give it a go.

Steinberg REALLY SUCKS!!! I am so done with them and their corporate crap. Not another penny will they get.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Yep the whole marketing machines attached to certain DAW is a terrible state of affairs to be in.

Its not just Steingberg either, i cant stand the whole Digidesign and its specfic hardware thing.

Its just so refreshing to have a product that comes with attitude like this.

Well, the Wavestation works fine and seems to consume about the same amount of CPU as in SX1. A really big chord (about 8notes or so) peaked at about 20% which is to be expected really. The only beef that I have is that the CPU meter is on the 'channel' panel which means you have to have it open to monitor load - which means that I've probably not found the right location for it yet!



Found it!! Ooops!! And boy could Steinberg learn a thing or two from it - I've always wondered who the cpu-hungry tracks were and this let's me know. Woo Hoo.



I like the fact that you simply chain effects / instruments in the same pane as this makes the instrument feel more integrated - which is what I suppose an 'instrument' track in Cubase4 is supposed to address. I never did get why we need two tracks for VSTis ....

Found out how to make it send out to my outboard fx, so the Eventide is now used in the demo project. It would be great if you could not just specify an output routing, but also an return channel pair (and have latency compensated) so that the external fx are used like 'inserts' on the track.

I'm slowly getting more used to it now. I suppose that I'll have to bite the bullet and see if can produce a track in it.

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Talk about Steinberg support?

Read this:

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/newpost.php?Cat=&Board=MRT&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

DH, link doesn't work - it just starts a new post.

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Are some of the Reaper users also using Powercore and UAD1 together, possibly in a magma chassis? This is a configuration that causes problems for lot of users of other DAW's, so, if it works in Reaper, it's a very good indication of the system robustness I guess.

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dB Studio - recording, mixing, transfer
www.dBStudio-Liege.net

Quote deadbeef:

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I thought it was a Danish comic strip..

Anyway, as the author of REAPER/Jesusonic/etc I can speak to this:

Jesusonic is in no way trying to be offensive to Christians. I am an atheist, but I do find the Christian concept and underlying message of Jesus to be a great one-- one that many Christians seem to forget about. So Jesusonic is there to remind us all to love our neighbors/forgive/etc etc..

What's offensive about that?

-Justin

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Nothing offensive at all, and if no-one else is going to say it I will - welcome to the SOS Forums Justin!

It's always pleasing when the developer of a product takes the trouble to register and post here, especially when the product in question (Reaper) is reaping so much (nearly all good) publicity

Actually I finally downloaded it yesterday after reading this thread, and am well impressed so far with what you've achieved in a comparatively short time.

Well done!


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Here here!

Why do some people get so doggedly hung up on side issues? DH, I don't mean to offend but in my opinion you are coming across as stubborn and persistant.

Justin and Pipeline Audio have taken the time to register and assure people that they are using the Jesus reference without any malice, and that the development team are even cross-faith (including atheism as a 'faith' ).

Even if (like me, I add), you are a Christian, stop being so over-sensitive just because a plug-in range includes (and is not detrimental to) the word or name 'Jesus'.

Why limit your world and outlook by being so narrow-minded on what is acceptable. Be reasonable, sure if the plugs were called "Kill God" or "Jesus was a Scouser" I could understand the offence but simply calling them "Jesusonic" is no grounds or evidence of being offensive.

For what it's worth, I found your aggressive manner and tone with the developers a lot more offensive.

Anyway, no offence intended. Right, must dash, Reaper is waiting!



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What it says on the tin...

Anyway, isn't the name "Waves" blasphemous?

It's clealy relating to the Biblical parting of the waves.



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What it says on the tin...

David:

It is often difficult to determine the tone of a post on the internet since we are only reading the written word. I thought I was being quite calm and presenting my opinion in a logical manner. If it came off as offensive, then I apologize.

My main point was that Pipelineaudio was avoiding my point, and instead trying to convince me that the name was not offensive. I was actually trying to point out to him that the name creates religious connotations even though he insisted that they were staying out of the religious issues.

Pipelineaudio seemed pre-programmed to respond that it was not offensive to anyone that mentions the religious relationship. My comments were aimed in a different area, yet he still responded in a way that had nothing (really) to do with my comments. This is why I had to keep coming back with more comments.

Also, no offense to you David, but you also misread my comments. I don't personally like the name, but that is me. My point *however* was in response to the staying out of the religious argument. I find it funny that you responded the way you did too, assuming that I was making a *huge* moral issue out of it.

I was making a business/marketing issue out of it!!!

These forums are for open discussions, right? I was voicing my opinion, and he his. That is cool, and I was not trying to be confrontational. Go back and re-read if you like, and this time imagine my comments being made in a calm, rational manner!

Anyway...peace!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Anyway ..... getting back to the point .....

Browsing the documentation last night I came upon the ReaMote entry. What an unexpected bonus - like FX teleport, but free (as opposed to V-Stack)! That's _awfully_ nice of someone to provide. Has anyone tried running that at all?

If I install this on my 'old' machine (or even a new, shiny one) then it should lighten the load of my existing DAW PC. And I like the fact that the documentation actually explains how to calculate the network capacity needed for it to run. Very slick indeed. That will be tonight's little project.

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote Dave B:

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Browsing the documentation last night I came upon the ReaMote entry. What an unexpected bonus - like FX teleport, but free (as opposed to V-Stack)! That's _awfully_ nice of someone to provide. Has anyone tried running that at all?

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Lots of fun stuff like that gets lost in the shuffle

We really havent had enough people testing this out. My partner has a core2duo laptop with Gig-E. I was able to drop a project from 65%cpu to 12% cpu on the main PC, without any sort of trouble from ReaMote

Starting to think that instead of the Magma system, ReaMote may be the way to go for those using UAD-1's. However, Justin just got an 8 core system the other day and was able to run 60 tracks of ambience VST on it, so maybe DSP cards arent going to be very important now.

Planning on giving Reamote a try tonight.
Currently using FX teleport on an old remote machine for some of my VSTi's.
Might be fun to see how well it holds up.

Quote pipelineaudio:

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Justin just got an 8 core system the other day and was able to run 60 tracks of ambience VST on it, so maybe DSP cards arent going to be very important now.

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I think it'll be a while before you see the downfall of the DSP card. Especialy UAD.
CPU's are not very efficient at handeling floating point operations, that's why everyone has to have a 240watt GPU in their system to play a game
The UAD plugins rely solely on floating point arithmetic and would probably grind any dualcore to a halt.
Try playing some of the recent games with a software mode video driver, maybe the 8 core could do it.

In time I think the algorithms for audio plugins, like graphics for games, will only evolve and a dedicated FPU or GPU will be a must for any audio application.
Now if someone would just write a plugin standard that could run on a standard ATI or NVidia GPU
Justin maybe?

I personally would love to see UAD open up their plugs to native, so that any plugs that arent running o n the card could use the card as a dongle and run the plugs native.

When we compare other plugs that can run on PT's DSP to native, it takes a LOT of DSP to equal what were running onboard.

I can run as many waves SSL strips on my dual opteron 248 native as on our PTHD5. Seeing that the PT version of UAD-1 runs about the same as the waves makes me think we could do them native.

I am just SO sold on reaper. The new album, having been tracked in Sonar, will be mixed in Reaper. It just works so much smoother than Sonar with far fewer dropouts.
The only thing I'm not sure of is which license to buy...
Does the personal use license still allow you to sell the CD's you make with it?

Quote Kariyushi:

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I am just SO sold on reaper. The new album, having been tracked in Sonar, will be mixed in Reaper. It just works so much smoother than Sonar with far fewer dropouts.
The only thing I'm not sure of is which license to buy...
Does the personal use license still allow you to sell the CD's you make with it?

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I don't think anyone could tell but then the commercial license is still so cheap. It's well worth the money even at the higher price. I think you're ok for personal as long as you haven't bought your own pressing/duplication plants and printing machines etc. I'm sure there's a bit of leeway for "local only" semi pro trade. But if you record someone else for money then definitely buy the commercial.
Also ask on the Reaper site to make sure.

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Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Quote Koed:

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I think it'll be a while before you see the downfall of the DSP card. Especialy UAD.
CPU's are not very efficient at handeling floating point operations, that's why everyone has to have a 240watt GPU in their system to play a game
The UAD plugins rely solely on floating point arithmetic and would probably grind any dualcore to a halt.
Try playing some of the recent games with a software mode video driver, maybe the 8 core could do it.

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This is pretty inaccurate, actually. Yes, native CPUs aren't going to do graphics for games, but that's a very different thing from the DSP required for processing relatively low samplerate audio.

The whole "CPUs are not very efficient at handling floating point operations" is completely wrong, too..

-Justin