Hello all,
I am writing a book called How To Make Music At Home for Virgin Publishing - due to be published in November.
I am mid-way through the book, but am looking for two things.
1. General tips on home recording in general: so, if you feel as though there is something I shouldn't miss, please get in touch.
2. The book will feature a number of profiles on artists/producers/engineers, who record at home. I have a series of questions I am inviting people to answer.
If you would like to be featured, or want to get involved, please post back here, or drop me an email: [Email]nicolaslade@yahoo.co.uk.[/Email]
Thanks in advance,
Nicola


SOS DISCLAIMER:
Another novelist also called Nicola Slade, author of romantic comedy Scuba Dancing has made contact with SOS and requested that we point out that the Nicola Slade who started this Forum thread is not her. SOS is happy to oblige to help clarify this fact.


Edited by Forum Admin (16/05/07 01:20 PM)

There are about 100 books and 10,000 websites on this subject. What will be different about yours?

I don't normally try and be the voice of any other members of this forum, but...

What kind of deal have you struck with Virgin Publishing, and more importantly...

What's in it for us?

--------------------
www.thediplomatz.com

Hello again,
I'm not prepared to disclose the nature of the deal I have with Virgin, since it's my business. However, I am already a published author and journalist, so I'm above board, if that's what you're asking. This book is aimed newcomers to home recording. It will cover the basics to get someone off the ground. It's not meant to be the last word, or a 'bible' so to speak.
Sure, there might not be 'anything in it for you', but I like to give people the opportunity to make suggestions and potentially, be featured.
Thanks
Nicola

Hi Nicola

Are you the author of "Scuba Dancing"

Welcome to the forum

Download: The Lowdown

I assume this is you? What sort of market are you catering for? I'm fairly certain that anyone who wants to get into home recording would start with Sound on Sound and get nicely led to Paul White's, "Home Recording Made Easy".

What exactly will your book provide that Paul White hasn't already. I'm not sucking up to Paul, BUT, his books are pretty comprehensive!

SJ.

EDIT: Oops just noticed your second post. Like has already been said, it's been done to death. And very well too.

Edited by Simon Mitchell (07/05/07 04:11 PM)

Having read this thread again, one thing comes to mind....

Shouldn't this book be written by someone who is already involved in home recording?
As you are asking people that are doing this it seems that this is not your area....

--------------------
www.sounds-and-images.co.uk
http://twitter.com/soundsandimages

There's only one thing I hate more than dabbling amateurs, and that is dabbling amateurs who haven't got a clue.

If Virgin was serious about their subject then it would have engaged someone who knows about the subject. Let's face it, there are quite a few of us out here.

Shame on Virgin!

Quote leslawrenson:

---

There's only one thing I hate more than dabbling amateurs, and that is dabbling amateurs who haven't got a clue.

If Virgin was serious about their subject then it would have engaged someone who knows about the subject. Let's face it, there are quite a few of us out here.

Shame on Virgin!

---

Why are we assuming that he knows nothing about the subject? (Not that I care, really...)

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Why are we assuming that (s)he knows nothing about the subject?

---

Good question.

The skill of a writer is writing, researching and presenting the material in a way that's easy to understand.

Quote leslawrenson:

---

Let's face it, there are quite a few of us out here.

---

If you can write a better book I'm sure you can find a publisher.

Quote Not that fool again!:

---

There are about 100 books and 10,000 websites on this subject. What will be different about yours?

---

I don'y understand the umbridge. There's well over 100 books on the subject. So what? There's well over 100 books about The Beatles and well over 100 of them are superfluous. Who cares?

Publishers and writers don't survive by limiting their interest to the "necessary" books any more than studio managers limit their work to the "necessary" recordings... if you get my drift.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

what's wrong with all you people? Why would you be so bitter about this? (this, obviously aimed at those who clearly are strangely annoyed)

She's only writing a book, not stealing your ideas...and let's face it, there aren't too many 'original' ideas anymore, anyway...

it's never going to harm a publication like SOS, nor is it going to tell anything particularly new, so why be so negative about it?

--------------------
I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
Twitter

Rob C - only one skill of a "technical" writer is to write about "their" subject is a way that is easy to understand. I don't accept that that is the only skill or, indeed, the most important skill.

The first skill of a writer of any technical subject is to understand their material, not to get others to effectively write the material for them. Otherwise, what comes out usually is nothing more than a pretty, but technically useless coffee table book. The market certainly does not need one of those.

And not only do I think I could write a book on the subject that is being proposed, I'm also certain that I could find a publisher. But I don't have to, nor do I want to write such a book. As someone has already pointed out, there are already a welter of books on this subject, written by technically able persons. In any event, your point does not do anything to advance your argument.

What appears to be being proposed here, is that those with the technical knowledge actually provide the material for the person seeking to write the book without remuneration. That's vanity publishing at its direst.

Edited by leslawrenson (07/05/07 06:56 PM)

Quote leslawrenson:

---

Rob C - only one skill of a "technical" writer is to write about "their" subject is a way that is easy to understand. I don't accept that that is the only skill or, indeed, the most important skill.

---

Why is that addressed to me? I didn't say it was the only or most important skill.

Quote leslawrenson:

---

What appears to be being proposed here, is that those with the technical knowledge actually provide the material for the person seeking to write the book without remuneration.

---

That might be your understanding, but it's by no means certain. We don't know what knowledge Nicola has or what other resources Virgin is providing. It's not unusual for a writer to draw on a variety of sources, and many of them might not be paid.

Quote leslawrenson:

---

That's vanity publishing at its direst.

---

Vanity publishing is where an author with no deal or audience pays for a print run of their book. I don't see how this could be vanity publishing in any way. The author has been commissioned and if the book is accepted it will be commercially published.

I'm flabbergasted that you see fit to make so many negative assumptions about a new poster and attack them (along with the others) in this way.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

But you don't know the form of the book do you? Our authoress has asked for general tips and for people to feature in Q&A's. So the book may not be about the technical issues around home recording, it may be based on say; the journey of a person getting into home recording. In fact i think our heroine points out in another post that it isnt supposed to be a bible on the subject.

Victoria Wood has just done a very informative set of TV documentaries on the Bristish Empire. She isn't an expert on the Empire, it has taken the form of a journey of enlightenment.

Not all books are technical. This one may well be about the phenomenon.

I think it's quite nice that the lady has sniffed out this place as a potential source of wisdom....

No need to give away your best secrets.

Rob C - I addressed my reply to you since you responded directly to something I said.

Indeed, we don't know "for certain" what Nicola meant, but her post strongly suggests to me that she has little knowledge of this area and is looking for those with the subject matter (ie those involved in home recording) to provide her with her material. If that is not the case, then not only has she not been very clear, but she has been IMO misleading. Certainly, if anyone posts a thread like that on this forum they must be prepared for some flack. Perhaps she might care to set out the depth of her experience, and clear up any misunderstanding.

I understand very well what the classic definition of vanity publishing is, but thank you for reminding me. However, what appears to be being proposed here is that "contributors" supply material for not cost, but perhaps get a mention in the book. To me, that is vanity publishing by a different name. Even if Nicola does have experince in this field, that does not address this particular point, I would suggest.

Nicola, a secret everyone should know:

If you want your recordings to sound really professional the secret is in making it sound loud. This is achieved after mixing your song, place a compressor on the main output buss and get rid of all the dynamics. Now use a limiter (sometimes called a maximiser) to get your mix as loud as possible. Exciters and EQ can make it sound even 'better'. Now your mixes will sound like the rubbish.. ahem... awesome tunes you hear on the radio!

- Simon Mitchell

(if you want to use this it's going to cost you, it's a little secret I don't tell many people! )

Quote leslawrenson:

---

Certainly, if anyone posts a thread like that on this forum they must be prepared for some flack. Perhaps she might care to set out the depth of her experience, and clear up any misunderstanding.

---

I don't see why she should get any flack, and I'd be surprised if she returns. Like ow says it makes sense to me that she would come here for material.

Paul Zollo: Songwriters On Songwriting - did the interviewees get paid?

Howard Massey: Behind The Glass - did the interviewees get paid?

Quote leslawrenson:

---

I understand very well what the classic definition of vanity publishing is...

---

Excuse me for not understanding your use of the common phrase had a new meaning (I guess I should be prepared for some flack on that).

But you're busy doing your flack... don't mind me.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote Simon Mitchell:

---

Nicola, a secret everyone should know:

If you want your recordings to sound really professional the secret is in making it sound loud. This is achieved after mixing your song, place a compressor on the main output buss and get rid of all the dynamics. Now use a limiter (sometimes called a maximiser) to get your mix as loud as possible. Exciters and EQ can make it sound even 'better'. Now your mixes will sound like the rubbish.. ahem... awesome tunes you hear on the radio!

- Simon Mitchell

(if you want to use this it's going to cost you, it's a little secret I don't tell many people! )

---

Nicola, make sure this man gets front page credit for his wise words .. that is S-I-M-O-N M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L... I'm sure he'll be forever greatful for all the references that will undoubtedly result from this

--------------------
When I finally discovered the meaning of life, they changed it...

Rob C - you seem to be more intent on criticising my points of view than in engaging in any argument. You've obviously got your take on this and I have mine. Sorry if I have touched a sore point for you. But please let me have my point of view. I'm quite content for you to hold yours.

And quoting instances where others have been ripped off by publishers, for contributing material that they did not get paid for, does not make it right this time round.

If you want to encourage people to get involved in a book for which they will get no payment, please be my guest.

Hi Nicola

Welcome to the forum.

I'm afraid you're going to find this a tough subject to research because as you're already seeing people are going to resent the fact that you're being paid to write what is really a technical guide to a highly complicated process of which you (I'm assuming) have little or no experience. Of course people always throw their toys out of the pram when professional writers are hired to do these sorts of things because they don't consider the fact that the publisher needs a safe pair of hands...but this subject is not really one you can research in this way. Say for example the book was called "Great Home Recordings" you would be able to go out and research it, collating technical information that's been given by those who've done the recordings...fair enough...but in this situation you can't hope to gain an understanding of the variables involved in anything less than years of research and experience. It's no accident that the successful recording manuals out there are written by seasoned pros.

I understand that nature of your job and I would be more than happy to give you the benefit of the experience that I've gained as a professional engineer and producer. The problem is that I HONESTLY have no idea where to start. I can't help feeling that your publishers have given you a poisoned chalice here.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck. Feel free to PM me if you think there's anything I can do for you.

Jack

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

Quote leslawrenson:

---

And quoting instances where others have been ripped off by publishers, for contributing material that they did not get paid for, does not make it right this time round.

If you want to encourage people to get involved in a book for which they will get no payment, please be my guest.

---

Let's just put this one to bed.

It's a common editorial technique to cite and interview experts who are willing to share their knowledge gratis... for the goodwill, the publicity, or the sheer joy of being alive.

Here's an excellent site that's full of outside comment (Matt will be able to say whether they paid Supergrass for example... I'd guess not).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/recording/

And a quick look across my bookshelves shows too many titles to mention using the same kind of approach.

OK, you wouldn't do it, but a lot of people do. I've done it myself (although home recording isn't something I know enough about).

Here's the kind of thing you might get:

Room treatment...

Bloke A "I don't use any... my room is... so... "

Bloke B "I use a bit... I did... because... "

Bloke C "I've got a fully pro room, and what I did was... because... "

You'd be surprised how helpful people are. If they don't think they've been ripped off... they haven't been.

Excuse the criticism... nothing personal... you're simply wrong.

I'm done.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Whereas I myself like to jump in and criticise some things which i find a little unfair and maybe which are of no real use and which may equate to being a rip off in some way.... In this instance I feel that it's only a book!

A book which may or may not do well? Just let the poor girl (or guy?) get on with it, if you do not wish to help then do not. At least it's not yet another website leading you to believe that for the incredibly low price of £*** you just might get the contact you need to gain some ground with your compositions!

It's not a con job or a scam or a confidence trick, it's an as yet unwritten book. Cynically written or laudable intent? It doesn't really matter. At this stage. I hope it's a good book.

Let's all lighten up here. My sister is not austistic and (once) knew nothing about it. She came across a family with a great story and went to live with them, and wrote their story, and it was made into a film. Now she's (unashamedly) ghost-writing the mother's story for a major publisher - with a lot of help from the mother. Off the back of that, the publishers have asked her to do another book about a well known cancer sufferer and fundraiser.

The relevant point here being she knows how to write and to communicate and to research facts. Rare skills, as any denizen of this forum can testify.

Welcome to the forum, Nicola. Thank you for seeking us out as a bunch of people who might be able help you in your researches. My personal apologies for the rather odd reception you have received.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (07/05/07 09:20 PM)

Rob, you would contribute to a project where the publisher and his editor takes money, and I would not.

I am not wrong, any more than you are right. There is no right or wrong. Just different points of view. That's why I contribute to this forum, because I like to express an opinion. You have your point of view and I have mine.

Others will decide for themselves whether or not they want to help make Branson richer than he already is for nothing in return. As for you and I, we've argued this one to a stand still.

I don't take what you said personally. I'm old and ugly and like an argument.

Edited by leslawrenson (07/05/07 09:26 PM)

Quote Steve Hill:

---

My personal apologies for the rather odd reception you have received.

---

You don't have to apologise for anything I've said. I've expressed my honestly felt (and, hopefully, cogently argued) views.

I'm certainly not apologising for that.

Quote leslawrenson:

---

There's only one thing I hate more than dabbling amateurs, and that is dabbling amateurs who haven't got a clue.

If Virgin was serious about their subject then it would have engaged someone who knows about the subject. Let's face it, there are quite a few of us out here.

Shame on Virgin!

---

What, not even this bit???

Quote ow:

---

Quote leslawrenson:

---

There's only one thing I hate more than dabbling amateurs, and that is dabbling amateurs who haven't got a clue.

If Virgin was serious about their subject then it would have engaged someone who knows about the subject. Let's face it, there are quite a few of us out here.

Shame on Virgin!

---

What, not even this bit???

---

Eh?

Edited by leslawrenson (07/05/07 09:38 PM)

What you don't even feel you should apologise for that insult on someone you know nothing about?

Following a chat with a fellow moderator behind the scenes, I've come to think the poster's intentions were not contravening the forum rules. As such I've reinstated this thread, I hope Nicola will get all help she needs.



--------------------
Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

Edited by Frank Eleveld (08/05/07 12:59 PM)

Quote leslawrenson:

---

There's only one thing I hate more than dabbling amateurs, and that is dabbling amateurs who haven't got a clue.

If Virgin was serious about their subject then it would have engaged someone who knows about the subject.

---

Quote Nicola Slade:

---

I wrote Download the Lowdown. I have been a music journalist for almost ten years - my speciality is music and technology. I edit Record of the Day - a music industry mailout and magazine and was digital editor at Music Week for four years.

---

Just tidying up loose ends.

Wise move Jeraldo. Very wise.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Nicola doesn't have to ask anyone here for anything. The most rudimentary reading of the current and past forum pages has everything she asks for ("invites?")

Admittedly, opinions vary on this, but arriving new on the forum and asking what she did raises all sorts of red flags for me. She seems, at very best, to be clueless about what's already on the forum, and at worst, ..........

If she was unable to read (or consider to read) the content of the forums, then I question both her information gathering skills as well as her (complete lack of) motivation.

It is Nicola who needs to "get involved," the writers on these forums already are.

yeah i have a question:

has Sir Richard still got any of that good pot to sell?

I see you decided to post here too.

Quote Jeraldo:

---

Nicola doesn't have to ask anyone here for anything. The most rudimentary reading of the current and past forum pages has everything she asks for ("invites?")

Admittedly, opinions vary on this, but arriving new on the forum and asking what she did raises all sorts of red flags for me. She seems, at very best, to be clueless about what's already on the forum, and at worst, ..........

If she was unable to read (or consider to read) the content of the forums, then I question both her information gathering skills as well as her (complete lack of) motivation.

---

Quote Nicola Slade:

---

I am mid-way through the book, but am looking for two things.
1. General tips on home recording in general: so, if you feel as though there is something I shouldn't miss, please get in touch.
2. The book will feature a number of profiles on artists/producers/engineers, who record at home. I have a series of questions I am inviting people to answer.

---

Jeraldo: how is she going to find artists/producers/engineers to feature by reading the forum? Asking each of the 60,000 members individually perhaps? And how is she going to know if you have a home recording tip you'd like to pass on? Did you post it here? How do I find it?

I've been around the forum for several years and I can't see how that's possible. Maybe you should be less free with your insults... and hey, isn't insulting people a forum rules "no-no" anyway?

Quote Jeraldo:

---

It is Nicola who needs to "get involved," the writers on these forums already are.

---

And her book is a further opportunity to get involved, don't you think?

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Damn!

I've totally misunderstood the point of a forum. I always thought that it was a place where you could come and ask questions. Either people answered you or they ignored you. I didn't realise that you had to read ALL the previous threads before asking something.

Sorry Jeraldo, I'll spend the next ten weeks going through all the past threads, sorting out the wheat from the chaff, before even considering being so rude as to ask a question.

For heaven's sake Jeraldo, she's doing what writers call "research". She turns up where (supposedly) experts congregate and asks for opinions.

I see she comments "I wrote Download the Lowdown. I have been a music journalist for almost ten years - my speciality is music and technology. I edit Record of the Day - a music industry mailout and magazine and was digital editor at Music Week for four years."

She'll have punctured a fair few egos with that reply. I can almost hear the cries of "I'm the only gay in this village".

Quote Fotografics:

---

Damn!

I've totally misunderstood the point of a forum. I always thought that it was a place where you could come and ask questions. Either people answered you or they ignored you. I didn't realise that you had to read ALL the previous threads before asking something.

---

um.. what's a question?

--------------------
www.myspace.com/wapskallionremixes

Why don't you write a book about things that you yourself have knowledge and experience?

Like about cooking or removing lipstick stains or something?


If you are looking for tips that worked for the person who gave them to you, I think you need to be a bit more generous than offering a "hey, but you'll be featured! Cool, huh?"


If you are looking for tips that didn't even work for your desperate loser bedroom guitarist advisor with a crack Cubase, then I have no idea who would need to read such a garbage. It would be like, "I don't need to pay you to be reminded what a loser I am..."

That's just daft.

B.

Quote Barish:

---

---

Things must be bad when you come along with one of your typically negative and arrogant comments.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

I am genuinely ashamed that I have recommended this forum to people.


It's stopping from today.

Quote Barish:

---

Why don't you write a book about things that you yourself have knowledge and experience?

Like about cooking or removing lipstick stains or something?


If you are looking for tips that worked for the person who gave them to you, I think you need to be a bit more generous than offering a "hey, but you'll be featured! Cool, huh?"


If you are looking for tips that didn't even work for your desperate loser bedroom guitarist advisor with a crack Cubase, then I have no idea who would need to read such a garbage. It would be like, "I don't need to pay you to be reminded what a loser I am..."

That's just daft.

B.

---

is this a joke? or did you get out of the wrong side of the cave?

Uh! Sorry... I didn't know that you guys were already getting involved.

Never mind my cynicsm.

Okay Nicola, sorry. Count me in too. I'll give you the best of my tips.

What not to get by reading comments about it in online forums. Straight from my Ebay second hand sales reports. Not kidding you. The items that I'd bought upon the forum appraisals I'd read, and then got rid of 6 months later.


And the so-called "vintage pro" equipment such-and-such was told to have used in their hit record, that I've discovered to have serious design faults, of course after buying them, only to find out that some people pumped them up in forums purely because they were desperate to get rid of them. And after selling theirs, you never saw them commenting on those items ever again, or just watched them cheekily turning to slag them off for their faults. Ehehehe.

That's how you become a "pro" in this internot world, without even recording a track worth listening to. (Yes, that's me.)

I mean, who would want to learn how to record from a guy who can't even get his music heard for free?


That doesn't make sense.

Go talk to those who make music people "pay" to hear. (Yes The Producer Formerly Known As Jack, who has already offered his help, could be a good start.) They have home-recording set-up for themselves too. At least you would put a book together that is worthwhile reading. Otherwise you'll be just contributing to this already-saturated disinformation pollution. I suggest you don't do it, for the sake of the pride of the writership.

But please, either way, please don't say "well, you'll be "featured" in a book by Virgin publishing (k-ching, was it a name dropped in there?), isn't that nice?" That's an insult to the knower. Why don't you keep the "featured writer" title while we get paid, huh? Just for a change in the pattern, you know. We are writing what you are intending to write everyday, here on these forums. For years. For free.

And oh, on another note, anybody can get cancer, but not anybody can record, or understand how recording process works to the level they can explain it to the others. So listening to a cancer patient and typing it is not really the same as listening to a bunch of recordists, making a sense of it and then typing about recording music.


Bitterly yours,

B.

Quote Fotografics:

---

Damn!

For heaven's sake Jeraldo, she's doing what writers call "research". She turns up where (supposedly) experts congregate and asks for opinions.

---

So then, since she's turned up here, why isn't she reading what has been already written?

She is doing no research at all. She wants to be spoon fed information that's right here if she'd the motivation (or maybe awareness) to read it.

So, I guess she wants all of us to look over our own posts of several years, think about them carefully, pick out the best ones (based on what?) and then give her the distilled nuggets of wisdom?

She can read, right? She must be able to write, but I hope that's not only achieved by someone else's dictation.

wow what a strange post...I recommend a long walk in the fresh air.

It's all very well to say the recording industry is full of bogus information, hyped products, scam merchants etc, but then you could say that about any industry really - in business you learn by your mistakes and from the actions of others, that are often shady as hell, but that's life!

I don't see why recording should be held as this sacred garden of truth where everyone is all peace and love?

Quote Barish:

---

Why don't you write a book about things that you yourself have knowledge and experience?

Like about cooking or removing lipstick stains or something?

---

Wow. Bet that deep sensitive side of your nature makes you a real hit with the ladies.

This post and several others from slightly less vocal forum members truly give the impression that some people have a knee jerk reaction to the idea of (god forbid) a woman getting stuck into music tech. It'd be funny if it wasn't so depressing.



Edited by reid (09/05/07 05:18 AM)

Quote ow:

---

Victoria Wood has just done a very informative set of TV documentaries on the Bristish Empire. She isn't an expert on the Empire, it has taken the form of a journey of enlightenment.

---

Yeah but like Tony Robinson, who I knew reasonably well when he first got the time team gig, she is there to be a talking head, not to write and produce the show.

I find myself having really mixed feelings about this one.
More power to the lady for gettiong Virgin to front her on this one (assuming she has actually had any sort of advance) but, as others have pointed out, I would like to see what her expertise or her particular take on the subject is that will bring something to it that hasn`t already been done before and better.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

---

Quote ow:

---

Victoria Wood has just done a very informative set of TV documentaries on the Bristish Empire. She isn't an expert on the Empire, it has taken the form of a journey of enlightenment.

---

...she is there to be a talking head...

---

Ok fair point, that was a bad example.

Poor Nicola! Maybe she'll write a book on miserable people on a 'well-known audio Forum'

Anyway, Nicola, PM me if you want some help ...

--------------------
PA stuff on FB

Quote Barish:

---

If you are looking for tips that worked for the person who gave them to you, I think you need to be a bit more generous than offering a "hey, but you'll be featured! Cool, huh?"

---

Speaking as someone who has done just that (been quoted in books and not paid) I find that pretty offensive.

Just because one is willing to contribute for the goodwill doesn't make one a "desperate loser bedroom guitarist advisor with a crack Cubase" or whatever the equivalent would be in my case.

In fact the whole of your post is fairly repellent.

Quote RegressiveRock:

---

I am genuinely ashamed that I have recommended this forum to people.


It's stopping from today.

---

I'm with you there Reg. Here I am adding to my Ignore List thinking "what's the point"?

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

If any individual can’t express their opinion without being highly offensive then their membership of the forum will be in jeopardy. All those who have acted irresponsibly can consider this message a warning.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Barish:

---

Why don't you write a book about things that you yourself have knowledge and experience?

Like about cooking or removing lipstick stains or something?


If you are looking for tips that worked for the person who gave them to you, I think you need to be a bit more generous than offering a "hey, but you'll be featured! Cool, huh?"

---

Barish, I am writing as a moderator, and as someone who is frankly personally ashamed to have anything to do with this forum right now. Your comments are gratuitously sexist and are calculated to cause offence to Nicola. That is well out of order and contrary to the forum rules to which you have signed up.

FWIW Nicola is a respected music journalist and published author. She is guilty of nothing worse than asking for some help. If you don't want to help, you don't have to.

She has not come here to insult you and does not deserve to be insulted by you.

In any event, consider this a formal warning: any repetition and you get banned.

And that goes for anyone else who thinks such conduct is an appropriate way to welcome a new forum contributor. She's a respected music journalist and published author and, I would once have imagined, might have been welcomed to this forum with open arms.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (09/05/07 08:14 AM)

I would like to bring everones attention to the Subject Line of this thread.

"...Get involved! I am writing a book about home recording for Virgin Publishing and am looking for people to take part..."

It doesnt say...

"...Get involved! I am writing a book about home recording for Virgin Publishing and am looking for tossers to take part..."

Hi Nicola,

I would just like to let you know that in the 5 or so years I have been hanging around this forum I have never been refused any help. Both those those making positive and negative comments on this particular thread have been a mine of good information in the past. Not least Barish.

What I would suggest is that you could field a few specific questions here and I think you will see some answers coming in fairly promptly.

In return, can I suggest you come back here some time and chip in on other subjects. The "music business" forum would definitely benefit from the opinions of someone with your industry experience.

Good luck and all that.

Alec

Quote Barish:

---

Why don't you write a book about things that you yourself have knowledge and experience?

Like about cooking or removing lipstick stains or something?


B.

---

That could well be the most incredible post I have ever read on any forum. It bring a whole new meaning to the term out of order, you should trully be ashamed.
Mat.

Nicola has made the typical internet newbie mistake of jumping in and posting on a forum that she hasn't been lurking on for a while and has therefore come up against this particular forums reluctance to spoon feed people answers - especially if they are new members with no history. If she had lurked for a while before posting she would probably have phrased her initial posting in a different way which would have kept people a little happier.

I'm a little surprised that Nicola made this basic mistake given her supposed extensive knowledge of all things digital but that doesn't excuse the reception that she received. All posters should remember that there is a human being on the other side of the keyboard with feelings and emotions. Think how you would feel if some of the messages on this thread had been directed towards you. I'd like to think that we're not usually this unfriendly.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Dear Nicola,

I sincerely apologise for my harsh words towards you.

When you said that:

Quote Nicola Slade:

---

Hello again,
I'm not prepared to disclose the nature of the deal I have with Virgin, since it's my business. However, I am already a published author and journalist, so I'm above board, if that's what you're asking. This book is aimed newcomers to home recording. It will cover the basics to get someone off the ground. It's not meant to be the last word, or a 'bible' so to speak.
Sure, there might not be 'anything in it for you', but I like to give people the opportunity to make suggestions and potentially, be featured.
Thanks
Nicola

---

...I had the impression that you were getting "hey, I'm a published writer, and not you, you know, and I have the deal and I'm giving you guys a 15-minutes-of-fame opportunity here, let's see what you can provide first, and then may be you'll get mentioned too, that's not bad for someone "below" the board, huh?" on us, taking for granted what kind of valuable information you might be supplied in the process, and how much it might have cost to the information supplier to be able to provide that piece of information to you, as you may appreciate that it takes quite an investment to be able to accummulate the information you require to write your book and do your "business". So, naturally I took this as an insult.

But I was wrong.

Your intentions were sincere, and I have misread. And either way, I shouldn't have replied to an insult with a counter-insult anyway.

That's why I realize I owe you an apology, and here I am returning it. Please accept my apologies.

And I would like to despise the members of the forum whom were not dazzled... uh, sorry, impressed, by this generous "15-minutes-of-fame opportunity offered", and built me up for such a burst with their initial reactionist posts.

Thank you.

B.

unsubscribe

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote Barish:

---

And I would like to despise the members of the forum whom were not dazzled... uh, sorry, impressed, by this generous "15-minutes-of-fame opportunity offered", and built me up for such a burst with their initial reactionist posts.

---

I don't quite get this bit - so correct me if I'm wrong - but are you trying to dump some of the blame for your misogynistic attitude on to other forum members?

I think you need to look a little closer to home fella.

Quote James Perrett:

---

Nicola has made the typical internet newbie mistake...

---

I wouldn't take the negative response to mean it was a mistake on her part.

She has a commission, she will complete her book, some people from here will be featured I don't doubt... and many won't.

So who loses out? The forum. Any mistake is ours.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote Rob C.:

---

some people from here will be featured I don't doubt...

---

Possibly not in the way they might have hoped for!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

I am also ashamed of this place and some of its members right about now. I thought we were above all that. That is one of the reasons I consider this place to be "home" for me rather than some of those other places filled with immature twits.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Nicola,

I sometimes wonder why people come to this forum. In my case it's to learn from people who know what they're talking about and, without hesitation I'll mention Steve Hill and John Willett as examples of people who take the time to explain things to newbies like me. Those aren't the only ones, there are a lot of friendly helpful people here and I don't want to list them because I'll leave someone out and they'll get upset and...

Then there are those who just like to massage their egos, usually looking down their noses at people like me, telling us that our equipment's too low-end and that we should either devote our entire lives to sound recording or go away.

I suspect that Nicola has looked through the forum archives but there's an awful lot of dross there as well as the occasional nugget of gold. If I want to know something, usually I'll start a new thread, why not? If you are so busy recording that you can't answer my question, then just ignore me. Unfortunately many people don't and will gladly take some of their precious time to tell me that I'm an amateur, and to stop wasting their time. The true experts take time to slowly and clearly answer my questions.

This thread has been quite revealing and has opened my eyes to various truths. The main one being that those who can do it, and are secure in their knowledge and position, pass the information on, comfortable knowing that they are top league and have nothing to worry about from newbies. Those who are only surviving with minimal knowledge and skill are worried that they'll be usurped and thus treat newcomers with suspicion and aggression.

Nicola, As one of the CRAP (Contentedly Recording Amateur Performances) newbies I've had sound advice from the two gods mentioned above as well as many, many others.
PM those who were nice to you and you'll get information worth listening to, the rude ones aren't worth bothering with anyway.


PS: The only tip I can give about home recording is: Never, ever, let your other half know how much the gear REALLY cost!

Quote Rob C.:

---

Quote James Perrett:

---

Nicola has made the typical internet newbie mistake...

---

I wouldn't take the negative response to mean it was a mistake on her part.

She has a commission, she will complete her book, some people from here will be featured I don't doubt... and many won't.

So who loses out? The forum. Any mistake is ours.

---

I don't think that the forum loses anything because of this, for it was not offered anything in the first place.


...unless you consider getting featured in a Virgin publication for free is a damn good achievement for your home studio investment, securing a "pro" author her contract in the process.

I don't believe that any home recordist has any dues to pay to anyone, and what adds insult to injury there is that the initiation is done through an image created as if people are really getting involved in something so beneficial for public.

No such thing. It is strictly business, which she is not even prepared to discuss.

She means, the home recordists do the public service and she gets paid for documenting it. And Virgin Publishing owns the rights to pass our home recordists' experiences to third parties for a price. And our poor home recordists go down to Borders and pay Virgin to buy their own experiences back in printed format so that they can show it to friends and relatives and brag about it.



And those who were not featured will pay to read how an underachievement is successfully packed and presented back as an achievement worth reading. A "useful" home recording advice about how to keep your recordings at home recordist level successfully.


Thank you very much Andy Warhol.


Come on Rob, you've been trying to teach independent musicians how they should look into making money. I would expect you to spin this.

I apologise for my offensive earlier words, but on the other notes, I maintain my stance.


I think Nicola's approach was very cheeky.

B.

There is no excuse WHATSOEVER for Barish's sexist remarks. It doesn't matter what any of us think of Nicola's intentions, her CV, her way of phrasing her questions or anything else. If his remarks had been of a similar vein and directed towards a black or jewish visitor to the forum he, and potentially the forum as publisher, could be in serious trouble with mr plod. But because Nicola is a woman he is allowed to be as offensive as he wishes and remain a member of the forum. I am gobsmacked.

--------------------
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Quote Barish:

---

I think Nicola's approach was very cheeky.

---

I agree. But if we share info on this forum, why shouldn't we share it with Nicola?

We're all musicians/producers trying to make the best music we can. Many of us put in very long hours for very little financial reward. We share info on this forum because we love making music and as part of a we're-all-in-this-together vibe...

For an outsider (Nicola Slade/Virgin Publishing) to seek to profit from our knowledge is a different matter altogether.

I respect that she was upfront about her intentions. But that upfront honesty only goes to show how people (esp MEDIA TYPES) blatantly expect musicians to do stuff for NOTHING - because they assume we're all desperate for a break, "who knows where this might lead?" etc.

The big break in this case is a mention (at best) in her book. What kind of a sap would take the considerable time required to provide details of their experience, equipment, working methods etc etc just to see their name in print (possibly)?

Anyone providing such information is perpetuating the idea that musicians are simple, smiley folk who are scared of business, have a lot of time on their hands, and are happy with the occasional pat on the head.

For the record I have no problem whatsoever with Nicola's request, clearly the moderators don't either, and she was not in breach of any forum rules. Out of courtesy she could've notified the mods before posting, but that is a very, very minor point.

I am shocked and offended by the negative responses, all of which are unfounded and many of which have crossed over into insulting and bigotted, particularly Barish. That was not an apology that he posted. This is how he behaves on many forums, always on the edge of being banned and incapable of admitting to mistakes, of which he makes many.

All of these negative responses are a far more serious transgression of forum etiquette, and basic decency, than Nicola's ever was.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote Rob C.:

---

Quote James Perrett:

---

Nicola has made the typical internet newbie mistake...

---

I wouldn't take the negative response to mean it was a mistake on her part.

She has a commission, she will complete her book, some people from here will be featured I don't doubt... and many won't.

So who loses out? The forum. Any mistake is ours.

---

I'm not trying to excuse the behaviour here but I have a few more thoughts on the subject.

There seems to be a feeling on this forum that we don't do people's homework questions or research for them. Anyone asking such a question is usually given short shrift. This is in contrast to other forums that I've seen where people asking this sort of question are given a much easier time. Apart from this unwritten facet of the forum, this place tends to be one of the friendlier places to be. Nicola has come along with just the sort of question that raises people's hackles because, from its phrasing, it appears to be asking us to do some of her work for her.

Now the best contrast I can draw is with Bob Katz's research for his much acclaimed Mastering Audio book. OK - so Bob knows a fair bit about the subject to start with but there are plenty of areas where he openly admits that his knowledge could do with some help. So he will ask for help on a forum much like this. However, Bob's question will be much more specific and it will be obvious that he's tried to find the answer before asking the forum. His questions are always thought provoking and won't always have cut and dried answers anyway. He will always give credit to the original author to anything that is used in the book. He is also known as an established member of the forum where he asks these questions who will give as much knowledge back to the forum as he takes from it.

It would be interesting to see the response to Nicola's request from some of the other home recording forums out there.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Yes I admit to have a problem with political correctness, and that causes trouble at times.

However, in this moral pallette that you are painting, Tomas, where do you put your passing of third party information as your own in internet forums in order to impose yourself as an "expert" of equipment that you have no first hand knowledge, nor experience? Could it be that you see this occasion as an opportunity to get the revenge of a past incidence in which you and I were both involved?

May be Nicola would want to know more details about some forumees whom might be in touch with her since she placed her appeal.

May be my excessive behaviour gives her a chance to judge the healthiness of the information she could get from people she met via forums.

May be the fact that I am not banned despite all the trouble I cause is not as bad as some people might think.

What do you say?

Thank you.

B.

The most activity of all topics on this forum has very little to do with recording music.

The 2nd most popular topic? an apology thread for the aforementioned post!

I don't think she was sneaky, that would have been to garner information posing as someone wanting personal help with their setup. I do think that the original post/question came across as condescending and put everyone straight on the back foot. Maybe she is actually writing a book on forum etiquette and this has actually provided lots of useful information. Hold that thought I think I'm going to write that book, if you see some provocative post spring up you ain't seen me, right!

--------------------
www.directresolution.com
home of the DARC audio computer

Quote Evie McCreevie:

---

What kind of a sap would take the considerable time required to provide details of their experience, equipment, working methods etc etc just to see their name in print (possibly)?

Anyone providing such information is perpetuating the idea that musicians are simple, smiley folk who are scared of business, have a lot of time on their hands, and are happy with the occasional pat on the head.

---

Hello, real world calling SOS Forum. Come in SOS Forum. Do you read? Hello?

As has already been pointed out, this kind of approach is very common. Who says it would consume a lot of your time? Probably somewhat less than taking part in this stupid bloody thread. Filling in an email or online questionnaire. Writing one or two 100 word anecdotes - ie somewhat less wordy than some of the idiotic responses here.

What's wrong with seeing your name in print? Give a little, get a little. Where's the problem?

I know plenty of people who do this kind of thing all time, in the real world that is - where it would seem people have a little more generosity of spirit and a more grounded sense of the true value of their ability/experience.

--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump

People being a bit self-righteous in this thread? Barish rude and sexist for sure... but come on lads, no need to huff and puff quite so much, surely!

Would you be sticking up for Nicola if she wasn't a bird? Eh? Thought not!

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Barish:

---

Quote Rob C.:

---

Quote James Perrett:

---

Nicola has made the typical internet newbie mistake...

---

I wouldn't take the negative response to mean it was a mistake on her part.

She has a commission, she will complete her book, some people from here will be featured I don't doubt... and many won't.

So who loses out? The forum. Any mistake is ours.

---

I don't think that the forum loses anything because of this, for it was not offered anything in the first place.

---

You don't need to be offered something to lose out.

The forum loses out because this thread is the very opposite of a welcome mat for newbies and pros alike. Even one of the mods has said, and confirmed, that before posting here you need to learn the ropes and tread on eggshells. That's a bad thing.

The forum also loses out because a veteran of the music business with significant experience has been given the finger by a few bitter, disgruntled, narrow minds.

Don't connect my site with that kind of blinkered resentment towards success. My message is a positive one. Get involved is a good slogan. This is nothing to do with "pay for play" or getting ripped off. If anyone here thinks there's money in writing about what they do the world is their lobster. You won't get anywhere simply attacking someone else who has got off their backside and found a publisher.

Quote Richard Graham:

---

People being a bit self-righteous in this thread? Barish rude and sexist for sure... but come on lads, no need to huff and puff quite so much, surely!

---

Perhaps women are unusual in your world Richard, but not in mine. And maybe it's not unusual to see a new poster attacked around here, but that doesn't mean we're self-righteous to point out the stupidity of it.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Rob,

With all due respect, what is the difference between this, and saying

"I've got a record deal but I don't know how to compose or perform songs, but I'm a pretty good listener. I'm half way through the project now, I've listened quite a lot of other songs and I have a pretty good idea what kind of songs I want in the album. Would you guys get involved? Uh, by the way, I keep the masters, royalties and the advance cheque, and you may get credited on the album cover. Pretty cool deal, huh? Well you know, I'm already published and you are not, so... you know..."

B.

Nicola's opening post said "if you would like... to get involved" send her an email, and referred to a series of questions.

Out of interest I did email her and answered her 15 questions, in about 10 minutes.

The people who are moaning here about giving up their valuable time to help her in exchange for a possible mention in her book (a book which is clearly damned in advance of anybody actually reading it) -

(a) obviously would not "like" to get involved, so all they have to do is ignore the request and move on to another thread; and

(b) are spending far more time bitching and moaning about Nicola and her motives (as they speculate them to be) than it would have taken to have requested her questionnaire, completed it, and returned it.

If you think any of that is a "valuable" use of your time I suggest you're spending far too much time in internet forums and not enough time making music or something.

Nobody's shoving anything down your throat here. There is nothing remotely cheeky about Nicola asking for help in this way.

And if the original post had been from Bob Katz or Steve Albini, how many of you would have been fawning all over him to get your personal nuggets of wisdom into the book? Jeez!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Reading this thread got me thinking I might write a book about home recording too, in my native language. I know a lot about it and I've written a couple of well received articles in magazines. The industry is moving forward so fast that it's ok to publish a new book about the subject each year, and I believe there hasn't been one in a while in Finnish.

Thanks for the food for though

Quote Barish:

---

With all due respect, what is the difference between this, and saying

"I've got a record deal but I don't know how to compose or perform songs, but I'm a pretty good listener. I'm half way through the project now, I've listened quite a lot of other songs and I have a pretty good idea what kind of songs I want in the album. Would you guys get involved? Uh, by the way, I keep the masters, royalties and the advance cheque, and you may get credited on the album cover. Pretty cool deal, huh? Well you know, I'm already published and you are not, so... you know..."

---

All the difference in the world. A book is not a record. A 'how-to' book about Home Recording would obviously include examples of people who do home recording. I have no idea how she's going to write the book but I understand the technique very well. And if you read books you'll probably know it too.

If you were writing a book about old churches you'd probably draft a few chapters, get commissioned by a publisher and then go round and interview a bunch of interesting doddery rectors. The quotes and pictures aren't the whole book. None of the individuals would be worth anything to the publisher without the idea, structure, narrative, legwork and glue. That's how it works.

It's how the frigging SOS magazine works. Do you imagine that everyone interviewed or quoted in a sidebar in SOS gets a cut of the cover price? You're living in a dream world. Wasn't there a "reader's home studio" column? I strongly suggest that Paul and Hugh take a baseball bat to deal with the Studio SOS subject who now thinks that their problems are worth a few bob.

A record by an artist or a group is expected to be their original artistic work. A real world guide book to any subject isn't expected to come out of the head of the author. How could it? Denizens Of The Transport Cafés of Scotland... all made up by me without talking to anybody? Dream on.

Quote Barish:

---

...you may get credited on the album cover.

---

I think she made it clear that contributors would get credited. That's also normal in books.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote ECC83:

---

Quote Evie McCreevie:

---

What kind of a sap would take the considerable time required to provide details of their experience, equipment, working methods etc etc just to see their name in print (possibly)?

Anyone providing such information is perpetuating the idea that musicians are simple, smiley folk who are scared of business, have a lot of time on their hands, and are happy with the occasional pat on the head.

---

Hello, real world calling SOS Forum. Come in SOS Forum. Do you read? Hello?

As has already been pointed out, this kind of approach is very common. Who says it would consume a lot of your time? Probably somewhat less than taking part in this stupid bloody thread. Filling in an email or online questionnaire. Writing one or two 100 word anecdotes - ie somewhat less wordy than some of the idiotic responses here.

What's wrong with seeing your name in print? Give a little, get a little. Where's the problem?

I know plenty of people who do this kind of thing all time, in the real world that is - where it would seem people have a little more generosity of spirit and a more grounded sense of the true value of their ability/experience.

---

You mean you personally know "plenty of people" who willingly contribute to other people's books - for nothing - "all the time"? Well, they do say there's one born every minute!

This forum wouldn't exist but for its members' "generosity of spirit". Saying NO and objecting to Nicola's appeal for info does not necessarily betray an "ungrounded sense of the true value of one's ability/experience" - it's just an honest reaction to a slightly dodgy request.

"Get involved!" - yeah sure. Let's all have loads of fun making a book for Virgin! It's just corporate recruitment-speak along the lines of "Join our team!" and "Opportunity!" typically used to disguise the fact that you're being asked to do unpaid/low paid work.

Finally ECC83, when next I try to profit by asking someone I don't know to do something for me for nothing - and they refuse - I'll remember to remark upon their lack of "generosity of spirit".

Evie,

Jeez, I think the point has been hammered home that no-one is asking you for anything of great value, just to participate in, for example, an online questionnaire, or to write a small anecdote about your experiences or techniques.

You are not being asked to write the book for free, or to even write a chapter for free, or to contribute anything of significant value for no return.

Unless you are fortunate enough to be able to command great sums for such work - are you famous perchance? Do you regularly bank large cheques for, say, writing 300 word forewords to books such as the one discussed in this thread?

You are not compiling the book. The author and publisher do that. The value of the book lies in the research, how its presented, etc, etc - again, I think this has been explained pretty clearly by Rob C.

Just because you know, as an example, how to bung up a couple of duvets to make an adhoc vocal recording environment, and can just about string together a description thereof, does not mean you are entitled to a big payday.

Yes, people give freely in the forum. However, to a newcomer, as a source of information on a single subject such as home recording, it has approximately zero value - the signal to noise ratio is too low, much of the information is contradictory and is thinly spread and hard to find.

Yes, I know plenty of people who have contributed to journals and books in my field, for free. These are smart guys at the top of their game, happy to share much more than is being asked here.

Clearly you feel differently, or understand the book project differently, or both. Perhaps you could give an example of something you might contribute to such a book, and why, if you did so, you would be a mug?

--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump

Sod this for a game of soldiers. What a load of miserable sods some of you are. I'm off, in embarrassment and anger.

Quote Rob C.:

---

Quote Barish:

---

With all due respect, what is the difference between this, and saying

"I've got a record deal but I don't know how to compose or perform songs, but I'm a pretty good listener. I'm half way through the project now, I've listened quite a lot of other songs and I have a pretty good idea what kind of songs I want in the album. Would you guys get involved? Uh, by the way, I keep the masters, royalties and the advance cheque, and you may get credited on the album cover. Pretty cool deal, huh? Well you know, I'm already published and you are not, so... you know..."

---

All the difference in the world. A book is not a record. A 'how-to' book about Home Recording would obviously include examples of people who do home recording. I have no idea how she's going to write the book but I understand the technique very well. And if you read books you'll probably know it too.

If you were writing a book about old churches you'd probably draft a few chapters, get commissioned by a publisher and then go round and interview a bunch of interesting doddery rectors. The quotes and pictures aren't the whole book. None of the individuals would be worth anything to the publisher without the idea, structure, narrative, legwork and glue. That's how it works.

It's how the frigging SOS magazine works. Do you imagine that everyone interviewed or quoted in a sidebar in SOS gets a cut of the cover price? You're living in a dream world. Wasn't there a "reader's home studio" column? I strongly suggest that Paul and Hugh take a baseball bat to deal with the Studio SOS subject who now thinks that their problems are worth a few bob.

A record by an artist or a group is expected to be their original artistic work. A real world guide book to any subject isn't expected to come out of the head of the author. How could it? Denizens Of The Transport Cafés of Scotland... all made up by me without talking to anybody? Dream on.

Quote Barish:

---

...you may get credited on the album cover.

---

I think she made it clear that contributors would get credited. That's also normal in books.

---

Fair point. Thanks for the explanation Rob.

I accept my judgment to be wrong in this issue, and apologise for the distress caused.

B.

Evie. In another life I have been/am cited in lots of peoples publications without ever having been paid and do you know what - I don't give a toss? I am actually proud to have been made one of only 8 ever honorary life members of a particular worldwide professional association as a thank-you for some stuff I did.

Money did not enter into it. Doing something worthwhile did.

If you are only prepared to get out of bed in the morning if someone pays to do so that's your choice. But don't expect me to sympathise with your f***ed up value system - it stinks.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

I don't get paid (extra) when my name appears on a scientific publication or patent.....to which I'll have had significant input, nor do I get citation fees (more's the pity ) which is the equivalent to the book contribution.

Hi ECC83 - thanks for your considered reply. I'll try to respond:

"...no-one is asking you for anything of great value, just to ... write a small anecdote about your experiences or techniques."

Frankly, I think my experiences are of value. There's not much point in having them otherwise! If they weren't of value, why is Nicola looking for them?

"You are not being asked to contribute anything of significant value for no return."

That's exactly what we're being asked.

"You are not compiling the book. The author and publisher do that. The value of the book lies in the research, how its presented, etc, etc..."

Surely those who contribute to that research can expect some small compensation, if their info is of worth printing?

"Just because you know, as an example, how to bung up a couple of duvets to make an adhoc vocal recording environment, and can just about string together a description thereof, does not mean you are entitled to a big payday."

Because I do know, as an example, how to make something crap sound reasonable, and something good sound great, means I AM entitled to some compensation if the person with whom I am sharing this information seeks to make a profit by publishing it in book form.

"Yes, people give freely in the forum. However, to a newcomer, as a source of information on a single subject such as home recording, it has approximately zero value - the signal to noise ratio is too low, much of the information is contradictory and is thinly spread and hard to find."

I understand that is WHY she posted the request on this forum. Whether she SHOULD have done so is a different matter.

"Yes, I know plenty of people who have contributed to journals and books in my field, for free. These are smart guys at the top of their game, happy to share much more than is being asked here."

OK I accept that. If a friend or acquaintance asked me the same, I'd probably be happy to oblige. But a total stranger working for Virgin Publishing? Not so much...

"Clearly you feel differently, or understand the book project differently, or both. Perhaps you could give an example of something you might contribute to such a book, and why, if you did so, you would be a mug?"

As I understand it, this is a commercial venture through which both the author and publisher hope to make a profit. There is nothing altruistic about it. To exploit the altruistic nature of this forum and its members is abusive.

Finally, I daresay there are indeed a number of ways in which I could contribute to the book if I wished. However, I would be a mug to do so as I don't know Nicola Slade, nor do I owe Virgin Publishing any favours. No payment is being offered, and I'm not a teenager excited by the prospect of seeing my name in print.

Contributing to this business venture just reinforces the idea that musicians should be REALLY NICE GUYS desperately eager to do stuff for nothing. Virgin could easily pay a proper music tech writer to write the book. Sod them.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Evie. In another life I have been/am cited in lots of peoples publications without ever having been paid and do you know what - I don't give a toss? I am actually proud to have been made one of only 8 ever honorary life members of a particular worldwide professional association as a thank-you for some stuff I did.

Money did not enter into it. Doing something worthwhile did.

If you are only prepared to get out of bed in the morning if someone pays to do so that's your choice. But don't expect me to sympathise with your f***ed up value system - it stinks.

---

Money does enter into it - that's the whole point. She's getting paid, Virgin make a profit.

What's so terribly worthwhile about another book on home recording? It's not saving the world.

Finally, I get out of bed for nothing most of the time... Objecting to this request for the reasons stated does not make me a breadhead, man.

Dear me! What a kerfuffle (as Nicola put it)!

It's been said before but bears repeating - if you're offended by Nicola's post, ignore it. Otherwise drop her a line and contribute if you feel so inclined.

I am not sure that *I* will as I am not sure I have much to contribute.... but not because I am offended or insulted by Nicola's post. In fact, she was very upfront about it and could just as easily sneaked in anonymously pretending to be something she isn't to get what she wanted and then buggered off to take all the glory.

Many things are created through altruistic contribution. In my line of the business (sound library development), people do favours for each other all the time, even between rival companies. SOS have been in touch with me about some letter/email they've received from a reader about Akai gear and I give my time and knowledge freely to help both the mag and the user. The music biz (and most others) work on this basis. I also get loads of email asking something about synths or sampling, whatever - should I tell 'em to fck off or send 'em an invoice with my reply? If the enquirer is a real scrote, I just ignore them and delete and move on.

Many, many books, biographies, newspaper and magazine articles, etc., are written this way as RobC pointed out and contributors often receive nothing more than a namecheck - it's standard practice in publishing. I have written many an article for SOS and I call up people all the time for their opinion, experience, whatever - they don't get all arsey on me and ask "What's it worth to me?". They give their time generously. And likewise, people call me up and I do the same. It's how it works. Get over it!

The bottom line here though as I see it is that Nicola was totally upfront (and why should she reveal her contractual and financial arrangements with Virgin for all to see - I'll bet it won't buy her a Ferrari ... or even a second-hand Ford Focus!). If you're not happy with her approach, ignore it else choose to join in or not as you choose.

I happen to think that the shoddy treatment she has received here will do a disservice to the recording community if it inclines Nicola to take advice from other forums populated by numpty 'yoofs' with cracked software. A book written with contributions from some of the major players that hang out here here would be something worth having and may well help and inspire people to dive in and get recording ... which will, in turn, be good for the industry which in turn helps those who contribute.... and those that didn't!

I just hope Nicola's not put off by what I consider to be a rather uncharacteristic display of bad manners here by some and I hope that she does get some help and support from those who would rather spend their time contributing to her book in a meaningful way than wittering on at length and attempting to justify their outrage at the audacity of her (IMO) innocent request.

And I wish Nicola good luck in her venture - it would be good to maybe see a 'definitive' book on the the processes on the shelves of mainstream bookshops, something that the weight of Virgin publishing could achieve.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Some of this thread is absolutely disgraceful!! I feel shame has been brought upon us all.

As has been said already, If you want to help her out, email her. If you don't, I for one do not want to hear your rants! THIS THREAD IS GOING NOWHERE FAST! I think it would be a good idea to put this to bed and lock it. MODS??

Quote Steve Hill:

---

...I am actually proud to have been made one of only 8 ever honorary life members of a particular worldwide professional association as a thank-you for some stuff I did.

Money did not enter into it. Doing something worthwhile did.

If you are only prepared to get out of bed in the morning if someone pays to do so that's your choice. But don't expect me to sympathise with your f***ed up value system - it stinks.

---

I must say I'm surprised and disappointed that a "moderator" on this forum is allowed to say my "worldview stinks"...

Then again, you have been "made one of only 8 ever honorary life members of a particular worldwide professional association as a thank-you for some stuff you did". So obviously you're a REALLY NICE GUY.

Presumably this qualifies you to say my worldview stinks. I thought we merely held different opinions.

The ironic thing is that on the other thread (Apology to Nicolas Slade) I posted saying I couldn't understand why they locked this thread, as did others. Consequently it was unlocked. I now see that in fact locking it, was the most sensible thing to do and would have saved all this angst. Apologies Frank Eleveld, you were right and we were wrong!!

In life there are givers and there are takers. The really worrying thing is that there seem to be a lot of takers on this forum. If someone comes in and asks for a bit of help with a recording project he/she is doing, (for which they may be getting paid) do we tell them to get stuffed because there is nothing in it for us?

I would love to be able to be in the position of answering some of these posts or replying to Nicola with one of her questionaires, but I don't have the expertise, I am more likely to be the one asking the questions. It seems that unlike some people here, I actually quite like helping people do things, I even get a little kick out of it if we are totally honest.

Quote:

---

What's so terribly worthwhile about another book on home recording? It's not saving the world.

---

I don't quite think he was referring to this particular book, more his life membership of a professional association. And no, it's not saving the world, it's probably not necessary and nothing would happen if it wasn't written. That is beside the point. Between her and Virgin they have decided to write and publish it. So what if there are 200 other books on the same subject? Have you seen how many books there are on Windows XP!!!

So what if Paul White has done better, if she doesn't have the expertise, if she won't tell us how much she is being paid. To be honest none of that is our business. If she wants to write it she can. If it's crap then it's crap. Big deal! This forum is not the thought Police. Let people do what they want.

Some of the posts though...God! Metal Slug got banned for less, and seems tame in comparison.

I was trying to recall a similar thread where a newcomer to the Forum ended up creating a kerfuffle such as this. Reminds me ever so slightly of the Arby Studios thread a couple of years ago!

Quote Evie McCreevie:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

---

I must say I'm surprised and disappointed that a "moderator" on this forum is allowed to say my "worldview stinks"...

---

To be fair, on rereading your posts, you do come across as being a little bit mercenary. Go back and read them all, it can be quite instructive and you may well be surprised.

Quote S2:

---

To be fair, on rereading your posts, you do come across as being a little bit mercenary.

---

I was just trying to distinguish between sharing info with fellow musos who are trying to make music, and sharing info with "outsiders' who are trying to make a buck.

I think it's really sad that once "money" and "musician" appear in the same sentence, accusations of being mercenary and of having a stinky worldview soon follow.

To share with fellow musos is to be generous. To share with Virgin Publishing is to be exploited.

Surely the above statement - which is the gist of my argument - is clear, understandable and reasonable?

Oh for Chrissake...

Help Nicola out or not - your choice. Revel in the prospect of a namecheck in in a book ... or not ... your choice ... simple as that.

If you think you can do better, then sell your idea to a major publisher and get the thing published and reap the rewards yourself (you won't get much in such a niche market).

Else just knock it off and let Nicola get on with her research. She came here looking for informed opinion - instead, she was berated and insulted by some. And shame on those people,

I cannot begin to imagine what Nicola must be thinking now from the response she received from some forum members here.

Many of us have had heated run-ins in the OFF TOPIC forum but surely we're above petty squabbling elsewhere - such as here. It's pointless.

Bottom line? If you want to help Nicola and maybe get a namecheck in her book, PM her. Else just ignore it and move on and stop grinding blunt axes.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Dan LB:

---

As has been said already, If you want to help her out, email her. If you don't, I for one do not want to hear your rants! THIS THREAD IS GOING NOWHERE FAST! I think it would be a good idea to put this to bed and lock it. MODS??

---

I'm inclined to lock it again. Originally I felt unsure about the self-promotion part in Nicola's first post, but after some talking with Steve Hill I felt it was ok to unlock it.

However, it has spun into nothing but mudslinging, includes sexist remarks, etc. It's still going downhill and there's enough justification to lock it permanently simply because it's getting out of hand.

This posting serves as a last warning, if the bickering continues, me or some other mod will be locking or removing this and the other topic regarding Nicola's book. That would be a pity for Nicola, and I think it doesn't do justice to a forum that's generally a nice place to be.

Frank Eleveld

--------------------
Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

Actually i have a story about Virgin and an advert they broadcast some time ago, i think it was for mobiles...

Well years ago when mr's ow and me came back from a long stint in scotland, we were staying in a guest house near Gatwick while we looked for a new gaff.

It was supposed to be for a couple of weeks but ended up being a couple of months...

Anyway it was a big guest house, more of a small hotel, but it was run by this little old couple - really loveley people. It was a good place, they had a small restraunt bit and a proper kitchen, great food, we were happy.

But they also had a big laundry room with four washing machine / tumble dryer combos, ironing board or two and so on.

We got on really well with the old couple, became friends being there for so long and everything. They were sweet people, untouched by life it seemed and stuck in R4 land, sunday morning church, the lot.

One day mr's ow said to me "can you do some washing"? so i took our dirty clothes down to the laundry room, stuch eme in one of the washing machines and went back to the room.

A couple of hours later mr's ow said to me "i bet that washings done by now". So agreeing i went down to the laundry room, opened the machine and took out the clothes.

On removing the clothes i noticed they seemed particularly dry, and i thought to myself "you daft bugger, you didnt switch the machine on, these clothes are still dirty".

(Funny how your life can swerve with the tiniest of events...)

...and just to check, i took a pair of mr's ow's panties out of the basket and just gave the crutch a very quick little sniff, just to see if the clothes had indeed gone through the wash cycle, but as i did this i turned my head and there in the doorway of the laundry room was little old lady of little old couple fame. And our eyes met and i had a pair of panties on my face and was frozen with embarassment.

She looked at me asif i was the devil himself and never spoke to me again, and always treated mr's ow with that 'you poor thing' style done best by little old ladies.

I told that story a few times, and near to Virgins HQ in bars around Gatwick.... Then one day, there it was reinacted with a small change in personnel on a Virgin tv ad.. and did they pay me? NO!

Quote Steve Hill:

---

In any event, consider this a formal warning: any repetition and you get banned.

And that goes for anyone else who thinks such conduct is an appropriate way to welcome a new forum contributor. She's a respected music journalist and published author and, I would once have imagined, might have been welcomed to this forum with open arms.

---

Evie. What part of my post yesterday, quoted above do you not understand? And the similar warning posted by Tim Rainey? Are you exempt from the term "anyone else"? You are just continuing to insult Nicola, who you don't know, by making wild (and essentially unfounded) assumptions about her motives etc.

How do you think she feels reading all this? I know from exchanges with her in the last day or two that she has found a lot of this stuff upsetting.

Locking ths thread, yet again, is an option the mods are currently considering. Personally I lean to leaving it open as most forum members seem happy to take Nicola's motives at face value and help out. But I'll go with the flow.

Another option, which I am currently straining hard to resist, is ban Evie or anyone else who continues to use this forum as a platform to fling insults at Nicola.

You had a "final" warning yesterday.

This. Nonsense. Stops. Now.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

I'd suggest - given the amount of dust thrown up in these threads and its low value to the world - both threads could safely be trashed and replaced by a locked sticky for those who want to contact Nicola. It wouldn't be forever...

Those who want to impugne Virgin for being a commercial publisher could perhaps spend their effort on some other site a long way away.

Sorted.

And thanks to ow for the light relief... I larfed like a drain.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Thread degenerated! Response to Rob obliterated!

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Edited by Richard Graham (10/05/07 08:34 AM)

Quote Richard Graham:

---

Why would you assume that 'women are unusual in my world', and what would this mean anyway (that there aren't any, or that the ones there are are malformed in some way)?

---

I said perhaps they were...

Quote Richard Graham:

---

And how would this affect my point of view?

---

...because you seem to think gender is more of an issue than simple humanity and respect between individuals.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

I think gender has been an issue on this thread for a while now!

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Aural Reject:

---

I don't get paid (extra) when my name appears on a scientific publication or patent.....to which I'll have had significant input, nor do I get citation fees (more's the pity ) which is the equivalent to the book contribution.

---

AR - Although I'm more than happy for Nicola to post on this forum and I have already offerd my services to her, I don't think you can compare getting your name on a Science paper (unpaid) to getting quoted in a book (unpaid).

As I understood Science, getting your name on papers is the building block for your career and effects your future funding - I expect you'd put a lot more work into a paper than any of us would put into this book, and although you say it is unpaid, you personally get a lot more out of it


Just a thought...

--------------------
www.myspace.com/wapskallionremixes

Speaking as a newbie and as a hobbyist I'm so glad that this thread went on as long as it did. I hope that it made some of the "regulars" consider how they reply to some of our questions, as well as how they reacted to "Nicola".

I'm sure that this topic has touched a lot of nerves, especially with us on the lower end of the musical food chain. I think the motto "If you don't want to spend time with this thread, don't post" could be adopted more often.

I must admit that, as an ignorant beginner, you do have to put up with quite a lot of put-downs and condescending comments from some (I emphasise the word "some") of the regulars who seem more intent on promoting themselves than helping others, but you get enough help from the "good guys" to enable you to tolerate the ego-boosters.

Food for thought for some people, I hope.

--------------------
"Nice microphone... Now get it out of shot!"

Quote Richard Graham:

---

I think gender has been an issue on this thread for a while now!

---

One poster made some sexist remarks, for which he has since apologised. Aside from that particular nadir, gender is not a major theme in this thread.

--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump

Quote Wapskallion:

---

Quote Aural Reject:

---

I don't get paid (extra) when my name appears on a scientific publication or patent.....to which I'll have had significant input, nor do I get citation fees (more's the pity ) which is the equivalent to the book contribution.

---

AR - Although I'm more than happy for Nicola to post on this forum and I have already offerd my services to her, I don't think you can compare getting your name on a Science paper (unpaid) to getting quoted in a book (unpaid).

As I understood Science, getting your name on papers is the building block for your career and effects your future funding - I expect you'd put a lot more work into a paper than any of us would put into this book, and although you say it is unpaid, you personally get a lot more out of it


Just a thought...

---

It was more the citation thing I was trying to get at - rather badly admittedly - that work that I do (hence my analogy to providing hints / tips / ways of working to the author) can be contained within anyone else's work on the basis of a reference only...and the citation can be as important as the original paper.

Which (even though I've probably still not explained myself properly) puts me down firmly on the side of the OP.

(Incidentally, I'm not an academic scientist - I'm in industry, so the number of publications I'm on has no effect on my funding I don't even tend to write them myself - I'm just a contributing author in the fact that someone else includes stuff that I've done)

AR - well that's fair enough - so the moral is that we're all wonderful people (apart fro the horrible ones)... and what goes round comes around?

Amen

--------------------
www.myspace.com/wapskallionremixes

Quote Wapskallion:

---

AR - well that's fair enough - so the moral is that we're all wonderful people (apart fro the horrible ones)... and what goes round comes around?

Amen

---

Pretty much

I have a reputation, fairly earned, for blunt speaking.... and occasional brusqueness .

The reaction to Nicola and some of the more extreme responses actually make me ashamed to be a member here, never mind a moderator...

Grow up, get lives, and move on.


I may be occasionally rough, but generally fair with Homework queries, but this wasn't one of them..... a genuine and up front request , deserving of a lot more respect than it got.

and i DO earn my living from knowing the answers....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote ECC83:

---

Quote Richard Graham:

---

I think gender has been an issue on this thread for a while now!

---

One poster made some sexist remarks, for which he has since apologised. Aside from that particular nadir, gender is not a major theme in this thread.

---

I can't help thinking Barish has been admonished so strongly (fairly or not) mostly because the remarks he made were to or about a lady. Likewise, I think that's why so many people have felt a need to leap to her defense. I could be wrong. Perhaps everyone acts so disgusted every time a new visitor comes on and gets slapped down for asking for help.

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Seriously, why isn't this thread just locked its pretty much run its course of doom.

Its a shame to see people really destroying what was probably just an honest request for some information. I literally think about it like this.

SOS do reviews on products and they actually list the pros and cons of a product, they even suggest ways for a programmer or hardware creator to make it "better". Infact many company has taken on the views of SOS reviews and has implemented features highlighted in reviews. Does this suddenly mean that the reviewers are going to be on the phone to Mackie saying "erm, are you going to pay me for that suggestion then?"

This thread should be locked and Nicola be asked to post again. 3 pages of arguments for a simple question which is
"I am writing a book, I would like any suggestions of things you feel should be in it".

The amount of cash I must have saved on this forum for tech support is not even worth counting. I really hope the people who made the nasty comments look back at their past forum posts and think, when you had a problem, was someone asking for an engineering credit on your cd because they helped you sort out your drum mix?

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (10/05/07 12:35 PM)

Quote Richard Graham:

---

I can't help thinking Barish has been admonished so strongly (fairly or not) mostly because the remarks he made were to or about a lady.

---

If you re-read the thread you will see I was asking everyone to lighten up and treat Nicola with some basic respect long before Barish entered the fray at all. The very first respones to her, as a new member, were on the lines of it's all been done before so don't bother, or what's in it for us. Whether that was at all related to her being a woman I could not possibly say.

Also, if you re-read the thread, you will be a pretty sad person and possibly need to get out more!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

The very first respones to her, as a new member, were on the lines of it's all been done before so don't bother, or what's in it for us.

---

Not all the very first responses Steve.

Henry,

The best way to let this thread die is to not post any more.

I think this has been debated to death and some valuable lessons have been learned.

But it is time to move on. The constructive suggestions have now diminished and debating forum etiquette has run it's course.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note