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Darclinc



Joined: 04/08/03
Posts: 1942
Loc: Earth
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: tomafd]
      #501128 - 13/08/07 01:10 PM
I've sampled stuff before ( mostly voice samples from movies etc ), but I don't / haven't sampled anything for many years. I've also never used my synths' preset patches or any drum loops / prefabricated groove libraries. I do this because it's a lot more challenging this way, and when I go to bed at night, at least I am content in knowing that what I've created is mine and that I alone conceived all creative aspects of its being, which, at the end of the day, should be an infinitely more satisfying process and result for any self respecting musician.

At least it is that way for me. Each to his own, I suppose.

Why would you want to use other people's work / parts thereof anyway ?

D.

--------------------
www.thirdfloormusic.com


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Rob C



Joined: 10/02/03
Posts: 8434
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Neil C]
      #501223 - 13/08/07 03:16 PM
Quote Neil C:

To the extent that it's a breach of copyright to play a CD from your computer drive. Because the data gets copied into a buffer - it breaches the no copying part of the law (at least this was the case a couple of years ago, I don't think it's changed).




There is now a specific exception for this kind of copy.

Quote Neil C:

It's also in the UK, against copyright law to tape a CD you have bought so you can play it in your car for your own personal listening. I believe the USA has an ammendment to allow this (again from what I was told a couple of years ago).




That is still the case.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
Posts: 12507
Loc: Oxfordshire UK
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Rob C]
      #501239 - 13/08/07 03:28 PM
Quote Neil C:

It's also in the UK, against copyright law to tape a CD you have bought so you can play it in your car for your own personal listening. I believe the USA has an ammendment to allow this (again from what I was told a couple of years ago).




Although illegal, most people would see this as fair use if you already own the CD and I don't know anyone prosecuted for doing this.

On the other hand sampling is copying for commercial gain.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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MD_BANNED



Joined: 08/08/07
Posts: 202
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: John Willett]
      #501307 - 13/08/07 04:38 PM
Quote John Willett:

Quote Neil C:

It's also in the UK, against copyright law to tape a CD you have bought so you can play it in your car for your own personal listening. I believe the USA has an ammendment to allow this (again from what I was told a couple of years ago).




Although illegal, most people would see this as fair use if you already own the CD and I don't know anyone prosecuted for doing this.

On the other hand sampling is copying for commercial gain.




Playing devil's advocate for a second here...

Some particulary narrow minded people will argue though, that you are depriving the artist of the right to profit from selling casette copies (or whatever other format it is being copied to). Sure, there is a difference in that making a cassette or minidisk copy is not for profit when compared with sampling, but it is still depriving the artist of income.

A twat could even make the case for the moral rights of the artist: what if they don't want their music to be heard on a sonically inferior format? Perhaps they only want to release their records on vinyl - shouldn't that individual right be protected too?!

This is a perfect example of where the copyright interests of individuals have been restricted to protect the wider public interest, at least in the US. Over here, as you point out, the fact that it's illegal to make cassette copies is thankfully ignored.


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: uk
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: MD_BANNED]
      #501324 - 13/08/07 05:00 PM
Quote Happyandbored:


Some particulary narrow minded people will argue though, that you are depriving the artist of the right to profit from selling casette copies (or whatever other format it is being copied to). Sure, there is a difference in that making a cassette or minidisk copy is not for profit when compared with sampling, but it is still depriving the artist of income.

A twat could even make the case for the moral rights of the artist: what if they don't want their music to be heard on a sonically inferior format? Perhaps they only want to release their records on vinyl - shouldn't that individual right be protected too?!

This is a perfect example of where the copyright interests of individuals have been restricted to protect the wider public interest, at least in the US. Over here, as you point out, the fact that it's illegal to make cassette copies is thankfully ignored.





Most of those issues are between the artist and any record company they're dealing with- and I know quite a few artists (including me on one occasion) who had to fight quite hard just to be able to buy their own CDs off the company, at distributor price, to be able to sell them at full retail at gigs, etc. This is because the record company owns the masters, and once you've signed that deal, they own the recordings and therefore can do what they like with them, unless you and your lawyer get the right clauses in... I also had to fight pretty hard just to make sure that I do actually get the final veto on whether a tune gets used, or not, to advertise products or services i find objectionable. Same thing for the sampling issue- I'd rather not have my music used on tunes with rampantly misogynistic or homophobic lyrics, thank you, but it took a fair amount of arm twisting before they'd agree to let me have the final word.

As far as I know, most artists with 'standard' deals are not allowed to make cassette (or any format) copies of their own recordings if the mechanical rights in the original recording have been assigned to the record company, and there's no clause in the deal that specifically allows the artist to do it.

Same thing with the format the music is released on- if the artist only wants it released on vinyl, they'll have to get the record company to agree to that before release- and only the smallest and most laid-back record company is likely to agree to that !

Easiest way round all this, of course, is be the record company yourself- it's easy enough to find a bigger company to licence the tunes, should good things happen and you find you can't cope with demand- and in that situation you end up with all the best cards and can usually broker a deal that works well for you.

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
Posts: 12507
Loc: Oxfordshire UK
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: MD_BANNED]
      #501325 - 13/08/07 05:00 PM
Quote Happyandbored:

Playing devil's advocate for a second here...

Some particularly narrow minded people will argue though, that you are depriving the artist of the right to profit from selling cassette copies (or whatever other format it is being copied to). Sure, there is a difference in that making a cassette or minidisk copy is not for profit when compared with sampling, but it is still depriving the artist of income.




Yes and no - and only in the same way as you deprive a software company of income by making a safety backup of the software CD.

If the cassette copy for the car law was enforced, people would not buy two copies, they would either buy a cassette to play in the car and home or get a CD player for the car - either case they would only buy one copy. No revenue lost at all.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Steve House



Joined: 25/06/06
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Rob C]
      #501326 - 13/08/07 05:00 PM
AFAIK, both here in Canada and in the US, it is legal to personally make a copy for your own private use of a copyrightable work that you own. You're allowed to copy a CD from disk onto your mp3 player, for example, or make a copy of a CD that you own so you don't have to risk loss or damage of your expensive original when you want to play it in your car on your next road trip. But that's a different thing altogether from making a copy to incorporate into another work that you're then going to publish publically.


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John Willett
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Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Steve House]
      #501329 - 13/08/07 05:03 PM
Quote Steve House:

AFAIK, both here in Canada and in the US, it is legal to personally make a copy for your own private use of a copyrightable work that you own. You're allowed to copy a CD from disk onto your mp3 player, for example, or make a copy of a CD that you own so you don't have to risk loss or damage of your expensive original when you want to play it in your car on your next road trip. But that's a different thing altogether from making a copy to incorporate into another work that you're then going to publish publicly.




Agreed.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: leslawrenson]
      #501350 - 13/08/07 06:05 PM
Quote leslawrenson:

I am grateful to the moderators for having the courage to let it run its course.




You've got to be a very brave (or bored) moderator to read this far, Les.

Seriously, it's an interesting topic but would benefit from fewer debates on the lines of did/didn't/did so/did not...

Unless everyone has really run out of things to say.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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MD_BANNED



Joined: 08/08/07
Posts: 202
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #501369 - 13/08/07 06:43 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote leslawrenson:

I am grateful to the moderators for having the courage to let it run its course.




You've got to be a very brave (or bored) moderator to read this far, Les.





So now they've gone to sleep, let's talk about... software piracy.

[runs and hides]


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #501370 - 13/08/07 06:43 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

...You've got to be a very brave (or bored) moderator to read this far...




Oh no you havnt!


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kubrick2001



Joined: 23/06/05
Posts: 67
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: leslawrenson]
      #501372 - 13/08/07 06:45 PM
Here are the masters of sampling, i love them:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MJPdVVOmbz4


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topten



Joined: 24/07/07
Posts: 403
Loc: Dublin
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: leslawrenson]
      #501393 - 13/08/07 07:09 PM
Theft or creative re-use?

IMO, theft only comes into it when the money changes hands.
Mashing or remixing for fun... I see no harm in it. Messing with Ableton and the like to create party/club mixes never hurt anyone.

As an artist I use sampling. I sample my grooves, my grooves. I also sample machines and stuff. Sampling liberates! I'm a player and as a player I can not bring myself to EVER sample someone elces recorded work. It would seem disrespectful to the artist and bound to bring shame and bad karma to myself.
I'm not odd. I imagine most players would feel the same.


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
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Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: topten]
      #501402 - 13/08/07 07:16 PM
Quote topten:

IMO, theft only comes into it when the money changes hands.




Actually, theft only comes into it when money doesn't change hands.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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topten



Joined: 24/07/07
Posts: 403
Loc: Dublin
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: John Willett]
      #501412 - 13/08/07 07:27 PM
Property is theft.
i think Groucho Marx said that.


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leslawrenson



Joined: 14/03/06
Posts: 2509
Loc: Outside Mothercare
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: kubrick2001]
      #501414 - 13/08/07 07:29 PM
Quote kubrick2001:

Here are the masters of sampling, i love them:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MJPdVVOmbz4





These are nothing but remixes, though, aren't they?

And presumably Daft Punk got clearance on the material they used? It's all too easy to spot the samples they use.


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Bob Bickerton
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Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: leslawrenson]
      #501503 - 13/08/07 10:25 PM
Haven't read the whole thread (got a life you know) but thought I'd share a incident which demonstrates that the legal and appropriate use of samples (which I support) can have its downsides.

I was scheduled to perform in a school in front of two hundred kids when the teacher came up to me and said the kids had all learned the song I had recorded on the latest 'Kiwi Kids Song Series' (a CD resource given to schools in New Zealand to help kids learn new songs). I said I hadn't recorded anything for the Kiwi Kids Song Series, but the teacher insisted I had.

It turned out that the engineer who had sampled my uilleann pipes (with permission) had used them on a song and credited me for use of the samples. The teacher had assumed I'd recorded the song in person and would know it!

Anyway I had a listen and gave it a bash....wasn't too bad

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #501520 - 13/08/07 11:04 PM
You're a real trouper Bob. Not a lot of people admit to beng known for playing uilleann pipes.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Bob Bickerton
active member


Joined: 20/12/02
Posts: 3198
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #501530 - 13/08/07 11:34 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

You're a real trouper Bob. Not a lot of people admit to beng known for playing uilleann pipes.




We all have our crosses to bear....

Cheers

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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Sir George Martian



Joined: 04/08/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Cyberville
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #501539 - 14/08/07 12:02 AM
Why have you accredited this quote to me?

That's a very good question. I think the answer is that I haven't figured out how to get the quotes mechanism right yet. I was aiming at the other chap. I don't even know who you are.



Who are you?


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MD_BANNED



Joined: 08/08/07
Posts: 202
Re: Sampling - theft or creative re-use? new [Re: Sir George Martian]
      #501744 - 14/08/07 11:47 AM
Quote Sir George Martian:

Why have you accredited this quote to me?

That's a very good question. I think the answer is that I haven't figured out how to get the quotes mechanism right yet. I was aiming at the other chap. I don't even know who you are.



Who are you?




[happyandbored pops up from bunker...]

More evidence that some people haven't been reading the thread before posting!



[...then runs and hides again.]


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