--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Funnily enough, just the other day these exact two geezers rolled up in a white van, got out, and said "Do you wanna buy some speakers..?"

Usual disclaimer: I'm totally against piracy.

So the guy on the left is a former director of Waves and "Waves is our initial client".

That's not exactly an impartial industry initiative is it?

As to the statement that "80% of European studios" are using pirated siftware - well possibly if you include every bedroom PC. I think that's a risible statemet and frankly defamatory to a (largely) honest and respectable industry - and not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.

And given the furore caused by Waves bullying tactics with their own "initiative", I'd be surprised if many other reputable industry players want to climb on this particular bandwagon only to see their own brands damaged by association.

Waves shot themselves in the foot bigtime (and possibly also the anti-piracy cause). It will be a rash company which rushes to do the same.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

What I don't understand is how they can enforce this??

They don't have any right to come into your studio (well to some people their home) and just say "oh excuse me I want to pop in look at all your computers and check what software you are using".

I just have no idea how they plan to do this and as for 80% of the software being cracked in europe are you having a laugh... so that means that all the companies are able to develop and release new products on 1/5 of what they should be making? I think Mr banpiracy plucked that figure out of the sky.

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There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

This is all well and good, but as far as i can tell. Anybody i know thats using waves software, if they have the cracked version. They wouldnt have bought it otherwise, anybody that really has the facilities and need to use it such as large studios, have actually paid for it.

If waves are expecting all the laptop bedroom producers to go out and buy their software cause of a threat that they might face legal action is just ludicrous, the most likely thing from a scare is that they will simply delete the software. Leading less people to go on and buy from waves when they can afford it.

I dont think this can be compared to illegal music filesharing as that is something that everybody can afford to buy but given the option 8/10 people are going to go for the option where they can get a £10 cd for free.

Meh i dont use waves anyway

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

I thought that was a washing machine in the background..

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[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

I'm a home studio, and all my software/plugins are legit and registered.

80% of European studios using cracks?
I smell marketing hype there.
Funny how they didn't name any other software companies other than Waves- I wonder if that means they don't have anyone else yet?
It'll be interesting to see how the first court cases they mention go.

Erm ... obvious question : How do they identify the 'studios' that are using cracks? I'm missing something here.... or can anyone simply demand access to your work / home to perform an audit without question?

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Just found their website and it has the following :

Quote:

---

Email us at report@banpiracy.com to report cases of illegal audio software usage.

Your anonymity will be completely protected.

---

hmmmmnnnnn..... anyone know the legal implications of a blind tip-off? Does it stand up in court?

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

So basically they don't know any studios at all and this is a direct quote from their website

"It is very easy to trace the use of cracked software.
Today, BanPiracy is in the process of prosecuting hundreds
and hundreds of cases worldwide."

No what they mean is "its very easy, we get an email from anyone in the world telling us a studio is using cracks". clap clap banpiracy, your method of tracing cracked software sounds like the Trotters Independant Trading way of doing it

Seriously, so I email waves, say The Saw Mills (or any other studio Air, Abbey Road lol!) are using cracks and they send a guy round?? What dribble, a waste of money. If music software companies create good software at a competative price, users will buy it.



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There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (16/10/07 10:18 PM)

Well I'm afraid you guys might be wrong about this...If I had a waves plug in for every time a producer has offered me the whole set 'cracked' I'd have the diamond bundle by now...honestly...I've not met anyone who's using the legit version I dont think...And quite frankly they're using them on everything. They consider them superior and they use them accordingly.

A lot of these people are making good money. Waves have EVERY right to do this, and if an independant body sets up to pursue people then so be it.

Guys...these people are using their extensive plug in lists to take work that might otherwise have come to you. You may not want to believe that but 'waves' is like 'pro tools' in a studio. Punters like it.

J

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www.jackruston.com

It is a bit odd that Waves are basically throwing themselves under this particular train. They will suffer long term, especially their brand. It is a big PR gamble. But I am surprised a software company has not taken this stance before.

What I find totally surreal is how I speak to friends of mine who are in the music business, and they are 'struggling'; desperate to get composing gigs, writing songs they hope others will license, praying that one of their releases or stock compostions on the shelf will be taken for a commercial or corporate; basically desperate for any kind of income from licensing their work - and then with the other hand they are on Bit Torrent downloading samples and cracked plug-ins!

...I am actually quite stupified the more I think about it...

Jack - they have the right. It's the methods that suck, including barefaced entrapment (see previous threads e.g. the story about the guy who downloaded a demo to - er - demonstrate to the Waves mystery shopper, and confirmed if they booked the studio he'd buy it: they nicked him!).

Stories like this - which they don't even try to deny, but seek through legal spokesmen to justify as being a fair cop (!!!) are more than enough to ensure that I at least will never sully my studio with their rotten product in a million years.

If you know lots of producers using cracks, turn them in - they are unfair competition to you, and get no sympathy from me.

But on the basic economics of the thing - £7,500 for the Mercury Bundle? At Thomann prices? They are having a laugh. It's just not anywhere near that good.

No matter how hard you try, you can't spend a third of that on say four UAD cards and every bit of software available to run on them.

And that's Waves' problem. They are fighting the wrong war, because to admit their product is (at least) twice the price the market is prepared to pay will piss off a lot of stockholders. Tough. That's the business they're in.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I find it unlikely that they'll be turning users of pirated software into customers by levying "penalties" against them.

Well, i now know of 4 long established studios, including two very well known ones, who have been caught using Waves with no license . One of them told Waves. "Heres 500 quid, that's actually what it is worth, now go away"..

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nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

That's what I think:

If you are making any money out of your music, you SHOULD not be forgiven if you are caught using software.

If you are a bed room musician hobbyist, and just try things out, maybe for fun, maybe you also know that you will never make it, therefore you are not taking it seriously, and most likely cannot afford the real price... That' s more understandable.

Further, I'll compare this to the great and fantastic:
http://www.jeroenwijering.com/
Thanks to the SOS member (forgot his/her name) who introduced me to him a while back.

Jeroen say: It's FREE to download and use. BUT, for commercial use, buy a license. As a side note, his products beat anything out there.

Now, you would have to be a big scum bag to make money out of Jeroen's products, and not pay him for a license, which is ridiculously cheap.

I am NOT saying that every companies should do the same, but this is a good example of how things could work in this world.

Once again, my problem is real Studios, or people making money with music, and use cracks, this is no good. Or, Mr big shot, who drives a big expensive car, latest mobile phone, high payed job - and use F***ing cracks!

I would NOT want to see a poor man with a GOOD heart being penalized because he uses cracks, because maybe, that' all he has got in his life, a computer and few software, and he/she cannot even afford the household bills.

This is my theory in this world. Probably many won't agree with me, but that's what I think.

What I hate, is the musician who's got a budget for a setup, spend all his/her money on the kit, then didn't save for software, and use cracks instead.

I like Robin Hood, I like Mother theresa, I like the REAL MAFIA back in Sicily, where they used to still from the rich, to give to the poor. Jesus said, men shouldn't be prosecuted if they still food because they are hungry. Today we live in abundance, we are spoiled, compare to our grand parents, and great grand parents. Food is more available, but poverty still exist, and the internet can help people, they can socialize more easily. So I compared the food with the plugins, while it's not quite the same, ok, but I would say, open your mind, and see the big picture. It's still a cruel world, indeed.

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-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/

Edited by lg (17/10/07 02:19 AM)

Quote:

---

But on the basic economics of the thing - £7,500 for the Mercury Bundle? At Thomann prices? They are having a laugh. It's just not anywhere near that good.

---

They aren’t having a laugh Steve; they have always had a plan.

Waves cynically raised their prices to such a ridiculous level knowing full well it would attract a lot of people… to use a crack… thereby creating a huge number of people they could go after for even larger sums of money.

What we are seeing is phase two of their plan swinging into action.

I’m not saying companies shouldn’t make a profit, of course they should. Companies have every right to protect their IP but Waves tactic seems such a transparent and cynical manipulation; a money making plan, nothing more, nothing less.

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

i'm gonna go out on a limb and admit to using cracked software on a try-before-buy basis - where else in life would you spend a large sum of money without trying out the product first?

here's my question - why don't software companies generally lower their prices? While (for instance) Waves Diamond Bundle is £2000+, and crackable, of course even usually honest people are going to be tempted. if it cost 80% less, maybe those 80% of users would buy the software?

The other question of course is why they made their software crackable - you don't see people stealing copies of cubase 4 because the security is up to the job...

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the first of recording is, don't talk about recording...

I think that might be a bit of a stretch, Tim. I think they're just trying to scare people into not using pirated copies of their software. I would contest however, that most people using pirated copies are not "studios"; they are people with a computer and a mic in their bedrooms. They'll happily use an expensive plugin bundle if they can get it for free, but they'd never pay thousands of pounds for one.

Now, I have no doubt that there are commercial enterprises who are using pirated copies; I hope it's these people who they are going to go after. But their 80% statistic would lead me to believe that they are including pretty much anyone with a copy of ProTools in their definition of a studio.

someone i know was caught out recently by a client visiting their studio, saying they wanted that 'waves sound' on a recording, so when the engineer (who wouldnt normally use waves) installed a crack - just for this project - a week later he gets a bill for £5,000.00 from waves to avoid legal action.

I dont agree with using pirated software, but i also strongly object to entrapment - the police cant do it - why should waves be able to get away with it?

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www.myspace.com/dapperyouth

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote phlebas:

---

if it cost 80% less, maybe those 80% of users would buy the software?

---

While we're at it, why not for free? Or maybe everyone that works in waves should get whatever the minimum salary in Bangladesh is, as long as they can price their products to your convenience. Maybe 0.1 an hour would be good for you? A software engineer working for 6 months on a project at a 40 hour week would get a whooping 96 euros in those 6 months and thus the product could have an 80% price cut, or whatever percentage you decide to pull out of your ass.

Waves methods may not be nice, but people using cracked software for commercial purposes are parasites. Getting away with paying the normal price of the software is too little, in my opinion.

+1 for the pro Waves camp here. As a legitimate user and supporter of the product, I support any initiatives to remove illegal users from the 'game'.
Yes, the 'Israeli' way might be seen as heavy handed but legitimate users have nothing to fear.

I actually wonder if Banpiracy is actually an attempt (by Waves) to distance the company from the enforcement activities.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!

---

I am just imagining this confrontation - wonderful.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Nuno, the fact is that "their" product is not worth £7,500 I mean seriously, when you put Waves plugins into perspective...

a UAD Extreme costs £1299 - 32 plugins

buy another 3 UAD cards (3 x project pak) = £800

so you have spent £2099 and now have 4 dsp cards and 32 plugins. Ok so you fancy Altiverb because its probably the best verb on the planet... we are upto £2500 oh and then you can buy a Mac Book Pro Laptop (2.4gigs duo, 2 gigs memory, 160gig drive, 8 x double layer dvd drive and a 256 G force card) £1,799.00. So we are now upto £4299

Lets whack on a Fireface 800 for £770 and while we are here I will whack on a Mackie Control Universal Pro for £900 and we are upto £5969.

Oh and lets add in a Focusrite isa 428 £1200 so thats £7169 or you could go for a 828 for £1700 and be like £7650

So its either the Wave Mecury pack or

UAD Extreme Plugins Set
4 x UAD cards
Altiverb
Mac Book Pro Laptop (17 inch)
Mackie Control Universal Pro
RME Fireface 800
Focusrite 428/828 Preamp

I think I know which bundle I would choose and just think if you already have a good computer, you could spend the £1799 on a pair of 1k monitors and then spend the £800 on some acoustic panels I would never choose a studio on what plugins they have, you choose a studio because of the recording spaces and of course budget and a small thing called... The Engineer

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There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (17/10/07 10:08 AM)

My point exactly. I was just too lazy to do the maths.

UAD can do say the Neve 88RS channel strip at $239. I doubt if the software engineers in California consider themselves underpaid. And probably nobody ever has to pay $239 because every three months or so UAD reward their loyal customers with some discount vouchers. (There's a $25 discount on it throughout October, and another $150 discount available if you buy another card before 31 December.)

Israeli corporate accountability is notoriously non-transparent (Swiss bank accounts are easier to penetrate), but someone is making unreasonable shed-loads of money here. And they're not having any of mine to add to their grubby profiteering little pile.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Everything you're saying makes perfect sense...there are other equally good if not better options out there for the majority of the plug ins on offer and at a more attractive price...the consumer has choice...

BUT the real issue here is that people just don't see piracy as a 'proper crime' so accordingly, those who would NEVER steal a packet of sweets from a supermarket think it quite ok to use cracked plug ins...it probably falls into the 'little bit naughty but everyone does it' category for them. And as increasingly, our world goes from the tangible to the virtual, now is the time to stamp a value on these things, to draw a line with software and music and film and try to change people's attitudes to protect our livlihoods. So any new company that aims to enforce these copyrights and thereby change the way people percieve piracy is doing us all a favour...regardless of how we might feel about their previous employment.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Jack - they have the right. It's the methods that suck, including barefaced entrapment (see previous threads e.g. the story about the guy who downloaded a demo to - er - demonstrate to the Waves mystery shopper, and confirmed if they booked the studio he'd buy it: they nicked him!).

---

Steve, I have heard this story as well, and I find it a bit hard to believe that this is *exactly* the way it happened for several reasons:

1) If someone asked me about Waves plugs in my studio, the *last* thing I would think about doing is downloading *anything* to show them how the plugs worked. In the extreme, I might call up the Waves website to show them a few things, but this just seems a bit far-fetched and smells a bit funny...

2) If it really did happen as is claimed in the stories, this guy would have MORE THAN ENOUGH legal ground to stand on to fight this. Come on, a legit 14-day demo version and then a bill??? That just doesn't happen, I am sorry. Tons of folks download the Waves demos from the Waves site, use them for 14 days or less, and let them expire.

There is just something about this story that doesn't seem quite right, even though I have heard it repeated several times.

Maybe the guy actually downloaded a crack and not a demo? Maybe the guy already had it on his computer and then claimed that he "just downloaded it" to make his story sound better???

I am just guessing here...

First off, it is pretty well known around here that I am not a Waves fan, and no longer support them. I think there policies are crap, and this latest scheme of using entrapment tactics is stooping to a new low, but I still have to say that some of the stories, as Mr. Tolkien said, "Grew in the telling...".

I do believe that they are sending in their agents and working to coerce studios to show them their Waves plugins, and "encouraging" them to download cracks so they can bust them... that part I believe, but this part about getting busted for downloading a demo is a bit much.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

The license agreement you accept pre-install says you cannot use demos in a commercial environment.

So *technically*, even installing a demo and showing it to a client is breaking the terms of the license. Whether it's "illegal" or whatever, or would hold up in court is another matter entirely, but it would cost the user to find out...

I don't have a problem with companies taking a stand and willing to be the bad guy to fight abuse of their intellectual property. Mystery shopping doesn't qualify as entrapment either as I understand.

I am somewhat bemused at the "Waves, the big baddie going after us innocent studio owners" attitude that follows this story around. People running cracks don't really deserve any sympathy, *especially* in a commercial setting.

(The "demo" situation is a little different and understandable)

In short, if you have paid for all your software and have legitimate installs, you have nothing to worry about, even if Waves *do* decide to target you. It's not that much different to business software audits, and they are common in other industries.

I *do* think the whole Banpiracy organisation is trying to pretend to be a united front against piracy when all it looks like is a collection agency, but that's another matter. Their image problem is what may prevent other companies signing on with them, but in many ways I think it's good Waves took a stand and said "Ok, enough is enough, time to get a little more serious" - I'm sure many other software companies are watching the outcome of this *very* carefully...

Quote desmond:

---

The license agreement you accept pre-install says you cannot use demos in a commercial environment.

So *technically*, even installing a demo and showing it to a client is breaking the terms of the license. Whether it's "illegal" or whatever, or would hold up in court is another matter entirely, but it would cost the user to find out...

I don't have a problem with companies taking a stand and willing to be the bad guy to fight abuse of their intellectual property. Mystery shopping doesn't qualify as entrapment either as I understand.

I am somewhat bemused at the "Waves, the big baddie going after us innocent studio owners" attitude that follows this story around. People running cracks don't really deserve any sympathy, *especially* in a commercial setting.

(The "demo" situation is a little different and understandable)

In short, if you have paid for all your software and have legitimate installs, you have nothing to worry about, even if Waves *do* decide to target you. It's not that much different to business software audits, and they are common in other industries.

I *do* think the whole Banpiracy organisation is trying to pretend to be a united front against piracy when all it looks like is a collection agency, but that's another matter. Their image problem is what may prevent other companies signing on with them, but in many ways I think it's good Waves took a stand and said "Ok, enough is enough, time to get a little more serious" - I'm sure many other software companies are watching the outcome of this *very* carefully...

---

This might be true, however, if you are a commercial studio how do you use a demo in a non-commercial environment? This seems crazy and a good way to annoy alot of genuine customers.

Presumably in off-hours, when the studio is closed and doesn't have paying clients in it, you check out the software for evaluation purposes only, you don't commit any processing to clients projects and you uninstall before the next session.

Dunno, I can't say I've ever read the license in full...

Quote thenaturallevel:

---

This might be true, however, if you are a commercial studio how do you use a demo in a non-commercial environment? This seems crazy and a good way to annoy alot of genuine customers.

---

I might use a demo, in my own time, to learn a package and to decide whether to buy it for commercial exploitation.

There's lots of reasons why a commercial studio might want to try before they buy!

I agree with DH a bit though - there are a few stories surrounding this whole saga which add up to "methinks he doth protest too much". Pinches of salt required all round.

But it's still overpriced for what it is!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There's lots of reasons why a commercial studio might want to try before they buy!

---

Of course - but there's a difference between the owners/managers of a commercial studio demoing the product outside of a session to make a purchase decision, versus actually using demos on clients' projects during a paid session - and it's that Waves want to be firm on.

I agree with Steve and others that, in the current economic climate (particularly as regards the music industry), the software is overpriced. Many small and even medium sized concerns would struggle to justify the outlay.

In so far as the pricing policy does have an impact on whether users can justify the purchase, that is a legitimate point. I feel that less would be inclined to use illegal copies if there was a better perception of value for money. That said, this is, in fact a separate issue form enforcing IPR's.

With Waves there is "no value for money" its a name which has become one that people pay for, just like pro tools and the problem is now.... people realise you can get the same products for less money.

The reason why 20% of people only buy is because the other 80% either download it and the other people go and buy other plugins which are a reasonable price. I mean don't get me wrong C4 and L2 are great plugins, but other that that nothing in the Waves range makes me go "oh woah I must have that".

Now yeah 2k for the Mercury bundle, thats looking more attractive (although still think the UAD/DSP would be my avenue) but they surely would notice the amount of cracked copies being used go down because it would actually be classed as "an afforadable" set of plugs.

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There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Quote Henry-S:

---

Nuno, the fact is that "their" product is not worth £7,500 .....

---

Well, that is your opinion, and it may well be mine also, but I fail to see how the hell that serves as any justification to piracy.

And, while we're at it, every other month there's some big name producer featured in SOS that uses renEQ and RenComp, two plug ins that can be bought in a bundle for around 180 euros. How come that never gets mentioned in these threads? All people mention is one the top of the line biggest bundle that probably has many years of development behind it. Waves think that it has that value. Don't agree? There are many options available.

These threads all end up in people trying to blame waves for creating or at least encouraging piracy of their own software. Yet, all software is pirated, regardless of price. There's plenty of cracks and serial generators of voxengo, is that also because they're overpriced?

I don't see a lot of people here trying to "justify piracy".

It's perfectly fair comment to discuss whether Waves' pricing (and indeed enforcement tactics) might be part of their problem, rather than a solution. As you say, it's a matter of opinion.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I have followed this thread with interest as I have been tempted by Waves plugins in the past. I acted on my right as a consumer not to buy their product. Software piracy is theft simple as, however, as has been mentioned before Waves are not the only kid in town.

So are 'Banpiracy' (what kind of name is that anyway? Like piracy isn't already 'banned') going to go after people who crack any brand of audio software, or just Waves stuff?

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote desmond:

---

Presumably in off-hours, when the studio is closed and doesn't have paying clients in it, you check out the software for evaluation purposes only, you don't commit any processing to clients projects and you uninstall before the next session.

Dunno, I can't say I've ever read the license in full...

---

I think their lawyers will look to enforce this as not to be used in a commercial studio at all, either during "working hours", or when it is closed. A lot of studios don't work "normal" 9-5 hours so this would be difficult to enforce. If it was me and I was looking to spend £7500 I would want to test it on a real project.