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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547179 - 19/11/07 02:18 PM
Yes, I am overly verbose and opinionated, aren't I....
Maybe even dead wrong on some aspects, but such is life.
Anyone with a good feel for the subject matter (or just a strong opinion) SPEAK UP (even Nuno. Please read ALL the words, I haven't said anything about Waves being to expensive FOR me, at most I said it might be too expensive TO me, meaning that I could buy it if I wanted it, but don't want it because I might not find it worth the asking price, and before you try it, no, that doesn't mean I am telling you to copy it)

Edited by Ari (19/11/07 02:24 PM)


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9386
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #547181 - 19/11/07 02:22 PM
Quote Mark Knutson:

but my own observation is that the vast majority of people I have encountered do not consider it morally on the same plane as taking something material from somebody.

.




generally because they're not the ones having it taken !

ALL the Software and sample library developers I know , feel very much that it's theft, and that it's on the same plane... worse in some cases... after all, most retail outlets have insurance against theft.

you try getting insured against IP piracy.

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547191 - 19/11/07 02:46 PM
Quote Ari:

Yes, I am overly verbose and opinionated, aren't I....
Maybe even dead wrong on some aspects, but such is life.
Anyone with a good feel for the subject matter (or just a strong opinion) SPEAK UP (even Nuno. Please read ALL the words, I haven't said anything about Waves being to expensive FOR me, at most I said it might be too expensive TO me, meaning that I could buy it if I wanted it, but don't want it because I might not find it worth the asking price, and before you try it, no, that doesn't mean I am telling you to copy it)




I totally agree and this is my point. It's not worth the price. Therefore, rather than illegally copy it just don't buy it. Give your money to someone else - there is plenty of choice out there.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #547194 - 19/11/07 02:49 PM
Quote Max!:

ALL the Software and sample library developers I know , feel very much that it's theft, and that it's on the same plane... worse in some cases...



Damned right! Maybe not 'theft' of something physical in my possession but every illegal copy made of my sound lib represents a loss of 50 bucks to me and without wishing to put too fine a point on it, that can make the difference between the mortgage getting paid or not (and/or having me marked down on some credit rating list as a mortgage defaulter). That's not to mention me going cap in hand to the bank manager and asking for an extension on my overdraft with all the costs that will entail.

And I am a small player - others have premises, staff, sales and support teams, specialist programmers, etc., to pay for.

And I have no truck with the argument "I wouldn't have bought it anyway" - so why 'steal' it you f'ckwit?

As for the turgid argument "I never used it anyway" - if you get your collar felt for nicking a bag of apples from Sainsburys, stating as your defense that you didn't eat them is unlikely to garner any sympathy from the jury of your peers!!

That said, I am not sure that Waves' somewhat underhand 'entrapment' strategies are a good business model either ... but I can (sort of) understand why they have - out of desperation perhaps - resorted to them. It is VERY frustrating to know that others are benefitting commercially from using your products when you have received no remuneration whatsoever.

And BTW, the argument to make your products cheap/affordable is the way to generate sales is a misnomer - people will STILL use cracked, illegal, free versions. Fact!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2524
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547198 - 19/11/07 02:58 PM
But if we ALL copy plugins and samples illegally, then all the plugin companies like Waves will go out of business and there will no longer be any plugins or sample libraries.

No, sorry. I do not see a down-side.

And as for the idea that it is stealing, what about my industry? These bastards have stolen my industry and destroyed thousands of jobs around the World with their cheap tatt.

Now they know how it feels!

To Hell with them. Carry on!


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547213 - 19/11/07 03:37 PM
Hehe, good one.

But not as silly as it sounds. Waves took advantage of the rise of the computer studio. Now when another change looms, they don't seem ready to dominate there as well. IMO they could have, had they played the selling game well.

As I've said above, even Digidesign are trying to keep up, shifting parts of their focus to quality stuff for small time producers, aquiring other companies in the process. They are willing to change, and may survive because of that.

The old studios COULDN'T change, not through lack of effort. They just had too large overheads and too expensive equipment. Much of which can now be (almost) emulated on much cheaper hardware. Even with hindsight I don't see how they could have adapted. Sadly, the biggest loss from this all was that a lot of skilled people left the industry, leaving us with a bunch of home producers (such as myself) that are really not as good at it.

At least they didn't try to sue artists for doing the recording and mixing in smaller/home studios (you know, stealing revenue from them.
Yes I know it's not comparable, but I liked the sentence anyway)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547243 - 19/11/07 04:40 PM
You make good points. Personally I think the difficulties (and cost!) of bringing criminal prosecutions are prohibitive and we need a better model. I don't know what that model is. Fixed penalties like speeding tickets if you get caught, maybe - payable to some industry-wide compensation fund? How about making parents legally responsible for the honesty of their kids' iPod contents?!?! (That's quite an interesting one, since large numbers of parents would just tell their kids they could not have mp3 players in order to manage the risk, which would hurt the industry....)

I do know, as I have said several times in this thread, that Waves' approach is wrong on so many levels - not least for their own business - that I hardly know where to start.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9168
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #547264 - 19/11/07 05:30 PM
I can't see a solution to the issues of piracy happening anytime soon, but we will see a gradually decrease of our freedoms and increasingly strong protection technologies employed by companies to protect their IP.

The Hollywood studios certainly aren't about to lose the control over their business that happened with the record companies.

Gradually, all our internet connections will be monitored and shaped more heavily, our computers will start coming with strong hardware identification, more and more software will require continual communication with remote servers, so it will get harder to acquire, install and use intellectual property illegally.

That's not to say it will be impossible, there will always be ways around things and the crackers enjoy the challenge. The only way piracy will be significantly reduced is where the effort of obtaining, cracking, copying and using illegal materials significantly outweighs the utility of the materials being pirated. Also, if society has a cultural shift to change our attitudes towards IP infringement - many people simply don't see software as "valuable", since they've never had the experience of paing out £600 on a software package - software is something that simply "comes on their computer". "Doesn't every PC have Word..?" etc

And that's not happening any time soon.


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topten



Joined: 24/07/07
Posts: 403
Loc: Dublin
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547278 - 19/11/07 05:55 PM
The law is never enough. If it was we'd have no locks on our homes.
The onus is on us to protect our own stuff.
Did you leave your keys in the car again Mr. Waves?
The law route is blunt and expensive. I doubt it will ever pay off for Waves.

my crack solution : put the software in a box with a firewire or usb connection. Add a few dials, a few lights and Bobs your uncle. Crack that!


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547288 - 19/11/07 06:23 PM
Agree with the above few posts.

As for locks on our doors, they are really only for show, more akin to propellerheads anti copying security. A moderately skilled burgler (i.e. not a crack addicted psycho) can open pretty much any door lock in less than 2 minutes. I saw a video of an 11 yr old girl being tought to pick a supposedly safe lock, and then open it in less than 5 minutes. She actually opened it in less than 30 seconds.
We can put more secure locks on our doors, but that hinders us in our daily lives and may be a safety issue in case of an emergency.
Same as with software, too draconian safety measures and it becomes unusable anyway.

As for the box with dials, I've mentioned digidesign a few times now, let me mention their products, the now unsupported Mbox and Protools le (of which I was the proud owner not too long ago) was basically a dongle for protools. The only drivers for protools le were for digidesign hardware. It got cracked anyway.
Meaning that it only meant that legit protools owners cannot use their program for mixing on the go, as they have to connect a big, powerhungry dongle to make it work, while the users of cracked versions can use the program in a convenient manner.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #547293 - 19/11/07 06:37 PM
Desmond - that's fine as far as it goes but not workable at the coalface. I am sat at my studio's first reserve computer - a decent dual G5 about three years old - but if my main Intel MacPro dies in the middle of a client session I want to be able to swap in the G5 in the time it takes to unplug a firewire cable or two.

I do not want to have to spend two days plus arsing about with software authorisations, which is what I had to do to move stuff off this G5 to the MacPro when I bought it a few months ago. My clients will have long gone by then.

I don't know the answer to this one! (As things stand I could get a 75% solution up and running quickly, and work around what's missing. This percentage will increase in time as I now consciously avoid buying products which are hard to transfer in a hurry.)

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5671
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547296 - 19/11/07 06:45 PM
Dammit! If only someone would build a box that ran on firewire, could be plugged and swapped quickly, had no real copy protection, ran really high quality emulations of good hardware (say .. eq and compressors), could process dozens of tracks and cost less than five hundred quid .......

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547309 - 19/11/07 07:01 PM
Waves are just pissed that they clearly no longer rule the roost with regards to audio plugins. Just about every tool they sell has a better or equal cheaper and sometimes free equivalent.

This makes me think of the debacle with the RIAA in the states, chasing down every last music lover as though they were criminals. If the music industry had listened to the tech savvy artists they would have introduced an open subscription system for music (download as much as you like for $xx a month) and a digital music 'buying' market would be vibrant possibility.

In Waves case they are victims of their own popularity, frankly with their prices the only custom they could have seriously expected was from professionals and studios, which in reality was probably only ever 10% of the ..ahem... 'userbase'. Criminalising everyone who uses your product is not the way to win favor, and like someone else said will probably result in not only illegitimate users deleting the plugins but quite possibly driving bonafide purchasers away.

I remember seeing a full set of Waves plugins in a mastering house and I couldn't believe the way there were so many variations on the same plugins that the Waves products effectively drowned out the competition in the plugin directory. I find it hard to believe that it was accidental when there were Mono Q1 EQ, Stereo Q1 EQ, Mono Q2 EQ, Stereo Q2 EQ, Mono Q3... ad finitum. Waves are clearly the Tesco of plugin developers, I wouldn't be surprised if they employed Shin Bet to 'disappear' their illegal fanboys and probably the competition too.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9168
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #547311 - 19/11/07 07:09 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Desmond - that's fine as far as it goes but not workable at the coalface.




I'm not saying it will happen overnight - I'm saying that over time, computing will move in that direction. The internet will be wireless and all-pervasive, all appliances will have a direct net connection.

There's no reason that companies won't allow you to move authorisations between machines, in a similar way that companies do now (my Live authorisations are tied to two machines, for instance.)

If all machines are on the internet (which will become as standard to computers as a mouse is now, because much software simply won't work without a net connection) these things should be relatively automatic, and hopefully painless to legit users - and hopefully more painful to non-legit users.

No, we don't have the infrastructure for this yet, and the social environment is not there yet, but it's im my view where we are heading. Personally, I'm not keen on these concepts but I'm reasonably sure that that is where these things are headed - how long it takes, whether it's ten years, twenty or more, is anyone's guess...


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Nathan



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #547412 - 19/11/07 11:07 PM
(well that's buggered me. my DAW is NOT connected to the internet because i can't be bothered with the intrusive nature of virus protection software...)

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


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hifistud2



Joined: 12/02/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #547445 - 20/11/07 12:07 AM
Interesting, all of this - but here's a twist. I have legitimate versions of all the software I use - and there's no Waves stuff in there (primarily because I consider it to be far too expensive for what it is).

So, if I download so-called cracks of all the software I'm licensed to use, have any of the developers lost a sale? I think that's a no!

Likewise, if I download a crack of a Waves bundle, but don't install it, has Waves lost a sale? Again, I'd suggest not. In neither case has a company suffered a loss.

If, on the other hand, I was to walk into a shop and take another box in which resided a further copy of everything I have lready bought, and left without paying, then the shop suffers a loss - and that is, plainly, theft.

But software houses count downloads, not installations. Some software houses make if extremely difficult to try their wares before you buy - they, effectively, are contributing to the problem.

Ari, I think, has very likely got it right.

--------------------
[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: hifistud2]
      #547512 - 20/11/07 09:03 AM
Quote hifistud2:


So, if I download so-called cracks of all the software I'm licensed to use, have any of the developers lost a sale? I think that's a no!




However, if you download a cracked version of the upgrade, for which said software house charge £50, then they have lost a sale.

Quote hifistud2:


Likewise, if I download a crack of a Waves bundle, but don't install it, has Waves lost a sale? Again, I'd suggest not. In neither case has a company suffered a loss.




A bit of a grey area this one as far as I'm concerned.
The act of downloading could be construed as intent to use or distribute.

Quote hifistud2:


If, on the other hand, I was to walk into a shop and take another box in which resided a further copy of everything I have lready bought, and left without paying, then the shop suffers a loss - and that is, plainly, theft.




Of course.

Quote hifistud2:


But software houses count downloads, not installations. Some software houses make if extremely difficult to try their wares before you buy - they, effectively, are contributing to the problem.

Ari, I think, has very likely got it right.




I'm not so sure it is as clear cut as that. As I said above intent to use or distribute could be one interpretation. I agree about some companies making it difficult to try their wares - that does annoy me.


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an englishman in
...




Joined: 14/11/07
Posts: 12
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547799 - 20/11/07 10:04 PM
and (your, my) god said
do not steal; do not copy a disc, whether cassette or cd, buy it; but maybe less serious to copy a U2 disc, because they are already rich, than a cd by bill and the billettes, who are trying to earn a living with their music; except if you copy U2 you may be in trouble, whereas Bill and the Billettes have no way of stopping you, (unless they live next door)

I am a composer of music; (as well as being a potential criminal); sound on sound is about music no? if someone wants to steal my music, I can't do much about it, (unless they live next door); except if a big star steals one of my songs, in fact I would be pleased; I can write another one and maybe next time I'll get paid;

now if I know/suspect someone has used something that in fact belongs to me, I think I would say, look, that's mine, if you want to use it, give me something in return, or stop using it; if s/he doesn't then, if I am U2 I send in the heavies, or if I am Bill and the Billettes, I grumble down the pub.

now someone gives me a U2 disc to listen to; I do; and decide I don't like it; I should have bought it, I should have thrown it away, but I didn't; and the U2 heavies arrive; (sorry U2 to use you as an example, but everyone has heard of U2; it's a compliment not a criticism)

and (your, my) god said, he's a thief, chop his hand off.

It's late (where I am); I've had a glass or two of wine; hence this ramble; but Mr Waves, if you had said to me, look, this programme is mine, if you like it, buy it, if you don't, throw it away; and if you don't, I will send in my heavies; then I would know where I stand; if you chop off my hand, I can't work anymore

but you didn't give me the chance to answer;


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547803 - 20/11/07 10:10 PM
In the streets around my "hood" if your not using a cracked DAW you're a sissy.

Tony.


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an englishman in
...




Joined: 14/11/07
Posts: 12
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #547806 - 20/11/07 10:14 PM
but's that's like saying whether you are an united or a city fan; (manchester, for you southern folk)


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: an englishman in paris]
      #547807 - 20/11/07 10:18 PM
No it's not, what's football got to do with anything about illegal software ??

Take care,

Tony.


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Nathan



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #547818 - 20/11/07 11:07 PM
i feel i don't make ny headway with the youths i teach/help. it's fair game to them. you get funny looks if you suggest that they should buy software/music downloads.

even funnier looks if you ask them where they're taking their band/ DJ collective and how they were planning on making a living out of it.

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #547850 - 21/11/07 12:14 AM
Quote Max!:

Quote Mark Knutson:

but my own observation is that the vast majority of people I have encountered do not consider it morally on the same plane as taking something material from somebody.

.




generally because they're not the ones having it taken !

ALL the Software and sample library developers I know , feel very much that it's theft, and that it's on the same plane... worse in some cases... after all, most retail outlets have insurance against theft.

you try getting insured against IP piracy.




I am a software vendor. However, I do feel free to make observations about the general state of human affairs.

As far as insurance, I suggest that IP piracy can't be insured due to the speculative nature of proving losses. At the risk of making light of a grave situation, would a piracy insurance policy pay according to replacement cost? I don't know if they have "replacement cost" riders in insurance policies in the land of our former colonial oppressor.

I have to assume that my own software (DoubleDawg) is pirated. Since I sell it cheaply, I chose not to try and incorporate some copy protection scheme which would cause me all sorts of support headaches--as well as more effort to program it. Also, how much effort ought a pirate expend to crack a $10 program with a pretty decent freeware version? Anyway, I have no basis for speculating on lost sales due to piracy for my own stuff, and I doubt that many companies do.

I will repeat my assertion that waves is probably waning due to the commoditizing of the plug-in market, and strong competitors entering the market weekly it seems. They can go after the scofflaws, but I suspect that is no substitute for the commanding market leadership they previously enjoyed.

I could get angry about piracy, but I prefer to get angry at my government instead as they remove far more of my wealth through taxation than the wildest dreams of any software pirates.

And, I will say that due to software piracy, I chose to limit my time and money investment in my software company. I make my living as an employee where the bucks are good and reliable, though the aleatory nature of product sales possibly leading to untold wealth is notably absent.

PS: If anyone can point to a bible verse dealing with intellectual property, I will eagerly study it. Software piracy is the creature of statutorially created intellectual property. Said statutes are for the sole purpose of encouraging authors to create content, and they are very much creatures of the democratic process (were it not governed completely by special interest money). So, I still maintain that software and other intellectual property is not on the exact same plane as those things which one no longer possesses once they get stolen.

For instance, as I pointed out earlier, I purchased Waves Reniassance Pack some years ago. I can no longer use it because waves requires me to upgrade in order to get a serial number for my new PC--and they don't offer that particular bundle anymore. This is in no way equivalent to a piece of hardware that I can possess for my life and pass on to my heirs if its still worth anything.

I feel I should have recourse against Waves for the loss of the use of my R-pack, but I have none. That's because buying sofware licenses is not really ownership in the traditional sense. The traditional sense that governs most people's idea of right and wrong. Its simply a different animal.

This is just one reason why I don't think the issue is as un-nuanced as many would suggest.

Edited by Mark Knutson (21/11/07 12:34 AM)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #547898 - 21/11/07 08:19 AM
Quote Mark Knutson:

I feel I should have recourse against Waves for the loss of the use of my R-pack, but I have none. That's because buying sofware licenses is not really ownership in the traditional sense. The traditional sense that governs most people's idea of right and wrong. Its simply a different animal.




Now that is a valid point. I too have been left stranded by developers abandoning me (the Logic-for-PC saga comes to mind, but also Mackie's abrupt ditching of the d8b desk and all its users. And Roger Nicholls overnight 400% price hike for Elemental Audio packages).

It is a bit hard for developers to bang on about "theft" when they reserve to themselves the right to steal it back from you on a whim, and at no notice.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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sharpeye



Joined: 21/12/04
Posts: 154
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547935 - 21/11/07 10:16 AM
counterfeiting, copying, pirating - it has been going on for years and will never be eradicated.

pirated software is no different to copied music. Someone buys an album, tells his mates how good it is, and gives a couple of them a copy, who then give a few other people a copy, and so it goes. Eventually, some of the people with a copy will either buy the original to replace their copy (having heard something they may not otherwise have bought) or will buy the next release by the artist - thus increasing sales.

As i said, the same happens with software. I started out using only cracked software. As time has gone on, i have selected the tools i use the most and have bought legit copies of them, discarding the ones i either never used or didnt like.

The end result - i have bought software and contributed to the industry - where as if i had never had the chance to play around i might not have purchased anything.

Crime will never be eradicated, and while i am not saying i agree with it, there are different levels. And i personally don't think that by trying to prosecute and penalise every person who eithers downloads/copies music or software you will make any difference at all.

No software house makes no money, otherwise they wouldnt be in business.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth


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Setter
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: sharpeye]
      #547949 - 21/11/07 10:59 AM
Quote sharpeye:


No software house makes no money, otherwise they wouldnt be in business.




Nonsense on many levels -

I will agree that no current software house has gone bankrupt yet (by definition). Lots of software houses have made no money and are now out of business.

Lots of small companies make no money and keep going because of the enthusiasm of their owners. (Same goes for studios)

J


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sharpeye



Joined: 21/12/04
Posts: 154
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547974 - 21/11/07 11:36 AM
Fair comment.

I think all i meant was that if a software house creates a good product they will sell it - and so shouldnt go out of business. The number of people illegally downloading it shouldnt make a difference.

A good example is Propellerhead Reason - loads of people run cracks of it but also loads of people buy it. Like i said, i am not saying this is fair or right, but it inevitably happens and so companies should build this into their business models.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth


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Agamemnon
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547980 - 21/11/07 11:45 AM
Does anyone know if CPU-based encryption will be a reality in the (near) future?
(Software suppliers would issue encrypted binaries using an encryption key unique to each CPU, the CPU would decrypt the code internally, making cracking much more difficult).


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jrwaltb



Joined: 14/05/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548245 - 21/11/07 07:23 PM
Waves give people the chance to buy the software and remain a customer. I can't see what's wrong with this.... Waves are still some of the best plug-in in the industry...Who care's if this is just a sales technique.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: jrwaltb]
      #548285 - 21/11/07 09:16 PM
Suing a studio for £70,000 for a non-offence is "just a sales technique"?

"Best" means five times the price of a fully loaded UAD1 card which in terms of sonic quality and options is at least as good, and additionally takes the load off your CPU?

And how long have you been employed by Waves exactly?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (21/11/07 09:19 PM)


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9168
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #548314 - 21/11/07 10:17 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

And how long have you been employed by Waves exactly?




Oh come on. "Accusing" someone as being a company stooge because they don't express the "popular" opinion is a rather childish stab.

I also personally believe Waves have the right to legally pursue intellectual property theft, even if I question or don't like the way they've chosen to enforce it.


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ross johnson



Joined: 21/11/07
Posts: 1
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548319 - 21/11/07 10:36 PM
BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!


It’s been a year since BanPiracy, a company devoted to stopping piracy in the audio software industry, was formed. This is our report card to you, our cohorts in an industry that we love, but one that is also in serious trouble.

Has it been lonely walking the walk as one of the only groups willing to enforce copyright protection for our clients? Absolutely. Do we wish we had more support from audio software developers who are getting their software “cracked” and are afraid to stand up for their rights as businessmen? Most definitely. Are we going to stay the course in our battle with pirates who abuse international copyright protections? Bet on it!

This past year has been one of lessons learned. We learned to accept the harsh reality that the way our company was structured -- as a for-profit LLC which gets its operating income from the collection of fees from those who are unjustly enriching themselves by using unauthorized software – might be a tough sell to manufacturers accustomed to looking the other way when their copyrights were violated. We learned that those who’ve come to depend on “cracked” software see their illegal activity as an unalienable right to exploit the efforts of talented professionals who labored to author that software.

And we’ve learned that there are brave people that will not be cowed by the noise of the rabble who want to take what’s not legally theirs.

It is a tribute to our industry that it supports such ethical publications as Pro Sound News and its European counterpart, Pro Sound News Europe. Both publications in mid-November published extensively-researched stories about our enforcement efforts. The writers of these stories were not afraid to take their shots at what they perceived as our shortcomings, but they bent over backwards to get both sides of the story, and we at BanPiracy acknowledge their professionalism.

In a Pro Sound News story written by Christopher Walsh, Andrew Kirk of PACE Anti-Piracy Inc., the developer of the ILok and InterLok tools, noted the uneven history of audio software manufacturers fighting the pirates, and noted: “BanPiracy has a noble goal,” and added that the audio software markets “do need some enforcement – think about a society in where there was no enforcement of law.”

Another of our counterparts in the anti-piracy campaign is Ray Williams, director of the International Music Software Trade Association. We salute Mr. Williams for his efforts, which were heralded in the Pro Sound News story. “Our whole reason for being,” Mr. Williams told PSN, “is to try to have musicians respect the work of the companies who supply their software tools the same way they respect the makers of their hardware tools.”

We at BanPiracy also welcome the voluminous opinions on Internet message boards about out campaign. One of the most interesting challenges to what we’re doing was posted on Peter Kirn’s Create Digital Music website. In referring to the only client we’ve been able to sign for BanPiracy, Waves Audio, Mr. Kirn wrote, “Waves, I put the challenge to you: either demonstrate you have other developers onboard with you, or stop trying to convince people this is an effort on behalf of the industry.”

Mr. Kirn’s theory is that until Waves Audio, the initial client of BanPiracy, is joined by other software developers, any effort by Waves Audio to promote its involvement in BanPiracy is NOT a legitimate effort on behalf of the audio software industry.

A note to Mr. Kirn: The clients of BanPiracy are not asking your permission, or anyone else’s, to stand up to audio software copyright infringers. BanPiracy hopes that others will join Waves Audio in this fight, but the fight will go on as long as there is one man or woman willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Adrian Anders, who posted the following in a user forum on Mr. Kirn’s website on November 14, 2007.

“I think the studio owners were being very irresponsible to their paying customers,” Mr. Anders wrote in response to the many proponents of “cracked” software who frequent Mr. Kirn’s website. Mr. Anders then added:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”

Count on this, Mr. Anders: You’re not alone in this fight.

By Tomer Elbaz, BanPiracy COO and Michael T. David, BanPiracy CEO, Nov. 20,2007

--------------------
Ross Johnson
Sitrick and Co.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #548330 - 21/11/07 10:52 PM
Quote desmond:

Quote Steve Hill:

And how long have you been employed by Waves exactly?




Oh come on. "Accusing" someone as being a company stooge because they don't express the "popular" opinion is a rather childish stab.

I also personally believe Waves have the right to legally pursue intellectual property theft, even if I question or don't like the way they've chosen to enforce it.




Oh come on.

I'm as hostile to theft as you are or moreso. But I'm not going to sit back an have Waves' actions described as a bloody marketing tool without a response!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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electrotimba



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 1011
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: jrwaltb]
      #548331 - 21/11/07 10:53 PM
Quote jrwaltb:

Waves give people the chance to buy the software and remain a customer. I can't see what's wrong with this.... Waves are still some of the best plug-in in the industry...Who care's if this is just a sales technique.



Wow,wow, wow! Here goes Waves - 2 post and "Waves Halleluya""
Quiz time - is it the left or right guy from the video?
I tip on the right one the "gentelman", the "mad mossad cap" would definitely go for some more nasty stuff.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548332 - 21/11/07 10:54 PM
Welcome to the forum, and thank you for putting your head above the parapet.

Thank you also for confirming that your salary depends on a percentage of the sums you extract from - er - defaulters. So you're a traffic warden, basically, paid on the number of parking tickets you issue - right?

Thank you also for the admission that Waves is your sole client. I note you hope to attract others.

Has it occurred to you that by your actions you have deterred any rational competitor of Waves from getting into bed with them?

Can you demonstrate in any meaningful way that you are anything but the paid mouthpiece of Waves? If not, don't you think you ought to stop lying by describing yourselves as representatives of "the industry" when, manifestly, after 12 months nobody else in the industry has shown the slightest interest in joining you? It makes as much sense as me calling myself a spokesman for the industry.

As far as I am concerned your credibility is non-existent. But thank you for confirming what I already suspected (see my post of 16 October at the top of this thread).

This stuff may play well where you come from, but in most of the developed world it kills your customer base stone dead. Your call though... I don't decry your right to self-destruct in any way that takes your fancy.

Edited by Steve Hill (21/11/07 11:30 PM)


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Setter
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548335 - 21/11/07 11:05 PM
Quote ross johnson:

BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!


Etc etc.etc




I'm not sure I believed the stories of the unpleasantness of which Banpiracy / Waves were accused till I read this. It does come across as a bit ..well deranged really.

J

PS I don't condone the use of cracked / stolen / borrowed software at all. Makes my presbyterian conscience overreact.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9168
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #548338 - 21/11/07 11:11 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

But I'm not going to sit back an have Waves' actions described as a bloody marketing tool without a response!




That one, you'll notice, I didn't contradict you on...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548350 - 21/11/07 11:40 PM
Sorry, I can't resist this last bit -

Quote ross johnson:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”




Since I'm giving away no secrets by stating that the established Waves' crack is to keep changing the date on your computer so the demo period does not expire (as reported in the Pro Sound News articles you quote with approval), are you actually confirming that Waves' demo software, as issued to potential willing customers, is a threat to their IT systems?

I think we have a right to know.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548404 - 22/11/07 02:03 AM
WOW, I don't know where to start.... lies, damn lies and politics!

The ONLY honest thing I saw there was that cracked DAWs may contain nasty stuff, yep, most assuredly. Except, as noted, if using the waves "crack". It doesn't really count as a crack though.

And a "noble goal"?? are you kidding me (3rd party description, but you choose to include it). And go on to explain how Banpiracy is a for profit organization. Noble would be not for profit, manned by volunteers, not for-profit getting paid for nabbing people. That does not serve anyones interest except your own. Even the staunchest anti-piracy people on this board will have issues with that post.

Fairness has to work both ways. No company can treat its customers with contempt without reaping the same.
Treat your customers with respect and you will get the same back. Respect from customers(in regards to business) usually means paying for the product and good word of mouth.
If a company screws up and treats its customers poorly only for a short while, they will need a much longer time to rebuild trust. If they try nastiness on customers and potential customers (and their friends, and the friends of their friends) they will get BAD word of mouth, declining sales and eventually close down.
That is business, in its purest form.

Software is business, all lessons learned from hundreds of years of market economy apply there, even more so than in most other markets due to the intangible nature of the product.

Mr. Johnson, your new version of economy will not work. The discussion on this thread has been interesting and looked at various issues. If I understand correctly most here agree that using illegal copies of software is bad, users and companies need to treat each other fairly, there are many issues to consider in the distribution models used (not complete agreement as to what the exact issues are) and that hardline tactics against the little guys (users) is probably the only thing that will definitely not work.

I could be misunderstanding....


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Stevedog



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 3002
Loc: Mercia
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548423 - 22/11/07 04:33 AM
Quote:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”





You opened a whole can of worms there. There several pieces of software that the crackers have stripped out the coding that hogs the system resources and causes crashes. You might not like to hear that, but experience tells many peoples that is true. Ergo, you have the most common situation with several pieces of software, wherebye, people buy the legimate version and then use the crack , because it works better..

No names no pack drill, but i can think of one piece of music software that never seemd to work with another companies software on the same machine. Unless, you used the crack. Strange that eh? Now of course i am absolutely positive that that was one of those unfortunate coincidences. How the hell would you ever prove otherwise?

My point being that, before you come over as the righteous voice of indignation it might be worth checking out the motives and history of a few of your present and prospective clients before donning the masks and charging off into town to sort the baddies out.

This doesn't just apply to music software. There are a whole rake of programmes that will not work on the same machine should you install both. I think you will find that if they are either accidentally, or deliberately encoding programmes like this, knowingly, they are breaching just about every anti monopoly law on the statute books.

If the software companies insist that i am buying a license. I cannot by defintion steal their software as the only physical copy that has ownership attached to it is the MAster they hold in their own offices. If someone uses a crack of said software , by defintion again, they cannot be stealing it. They are using an unlicensed copy. The reason people get cheesed off with companies like Waves is because they demand they have it always..

If waves crashes your system and wrecks your work. Well that's tough they don't owe you a penny they told you they can't be held responsible. Whereas, if my car crashed, because of an inherent design fault, the company who made have to accept responsibility. I hope you understand this concept that humans, by and large, dont like it when they are,told. it is your repsonsibility to jump through hoops to use our product but if our product fucks you up well sorry, tough luck...

If you do not own the software and can never actually own it, then legally, anyone using a crack can only ever be guilty of using an unlicensed copy it CANNOT be theft by definition. To call it theft is to and lets not mince words here, lie

In summary . If a company dsiplays a blatant "Give us your moeny and then [ ****** ] you" attitude it is only human nature that many people will say .."No i will use your software unlicensed and [ ****** ] you"...

There's an old saying, two wrongs don't make a right. As i said earlier, maybe it would be wise to check just who you are acting as enforcers for. Some of your clients may well love nothing more than to, effectively, "pirate", (that is, hijack another persons property to for their own use which is what piracy actually is, depsite peoples attempts to rebrand it as something totally different), peoples computers for their own gain at the expense of the competition.

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog


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