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Mark Knutson
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Joined: 25/03/03
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Loc: Minnesota, USA
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548424 - 22/11/07 04:45 AM
Maybe this is understood, but waves is not treating its customers in contempt with the lawsuits and shakedowns. It is treating pirates with contempt.

Where waves treats its customers with contempt is with overpriced upgrade requirements and refusal to allow old products to be used without upgrade, and whatever else they have done to dick over those who forked over the bucks for their product.

Now, I have had temporary (like a week or so) problems with Native Instruments authentication scheme in Kontakt 3, but I am still able to use my old version of Kompakt and FM7 without paying a dime to upgrade. When I change hardware, I can go to their website or gadget, and get a new auth key.

So, waves got their last dollars from me some years ago, and I just bought Konkakt 2/3 because I felt they would stand behind their sale. Propellerhead is another good one.

Just because people like to hear me complain, I will also mention that I got stranded with a windows version of logic when they sold out to apple--but I was able to sell it and emagic assisted me in transferring the license to the new owner!


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5544
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548436 - 22/11/07 08:17 AM
Chaps,

A moment's googling show that 'ross' is actually from a 'Strategic Communications Firm' or PR company as is clarified later. (I like the use of the word 'Firm' - in the US this surely carries certain associations and it's not with reputable companies)

Therefore, he couldn't give a flying one as to what anyone here thinks. He has just come to spam the forum with a press release. Which is against forum policy IIRC. Mods - _please_ delete his post (or the wording - I don't care), if for no other reason than it reads like PR drivel!

Throughout this whole thread, and despite being completely anti-piracy, I have found it really hard to get behind Waves on this whole thing. And that has come as a real suprise to me as I usually have some sympathy for people trying to get what is rightfully theirs. But whatever shred of conceptual support I had has dwindled and now finally been blown away. We already have an example of them not playing by their own (very publicly stated) rules and if they have to spam fora just to try and bolster their position, then it is obvious that they aren't the kind of company / organisation that I can get behind. When you have to put spin on bad practice, then you don't deserve _anyone's_ support in my book.

And now I'm going to go away and try and work out just why this makes me so angry!



--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #548437 - 22/11/07 08:27 AM
Quote Mark Knutson:

Where waves treats its customers with contempt is with overpriced upgrade requirements and refusal to allow old products to be used without upgrade, and whatever else they have done to dick over those who forked over the bucks for their product.




Well that's part of the story too. This thread is getting like Groundhog Day in many respects but to reiterate: the Waves Mercury Bundle is £5,279 (pounds, not $), for the native version, and about 50% more for TDM.

Logic 8 - £319 - contains as many plug-ins and some of them will give Waves a run for their money straight out of the box.

The large studio market - the sort of people who would have paid Waves' prices without thinking about it - is essentially dead now. The rest of us are a damn site more price-sensitive. In simple economic terms I can't see Waves' business model lasting without a price reduction of 80% to 90% and a a concerted effort to reach out to the mass market of bedroom/project studios. [And meanwhile I repeat, it's wrong to steal it until they see sense!]

I spent most of my career as a bankruptcy partner in the world's largest accounting firm. I've got up close and personal experience of the sort of desperate actions companies take when the universe as they know it unexpectedly moves on. Litigating against your own actual or potential customer base is a classic symptom (you've reached the point where you realise you're never going to sell them anything else, so what the heck). Waves' current actions look professionally familiar to me.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dave B]
      #548438 - 22/11/07 08:31 AM
Quote Dave B:

Mods - _please_ delete his post (or the wording - I don't care), if for no other reason than it reads like PR drivel!




Oh, I don't think so. It's the closest we've got to a real statement of Waves' views and intentions from someone in their employ.

If someone at board level at Waves wants to come along and repudiate any or all of the aforesaid drivel, we'll make them equally welcome.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Owen_Stark



Joined: 28/05/06
Posts: 9
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #548488 - 22/11/07 10:15 AM
Though I'm not a Waves user, I'd have thought that there are people who may have downloaded the crack and enjoyed the software so much that they might have eventually bought the software properly? People who may never have dreamed of buying it before! I'm talking here about private, non commercial use. If this were the case, there could be benefits to Waves?

I still think its inexcusable in the commercial environment though - using stolen property to make yourself money is ethically wrong.


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_Nuno_



Joined: 20/05/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #548503 - 22/11/07 10:39 AM
Quote Mark Knutson:

Maybe this is understood, but waves is not treating its customers in contempt with the lawsuits and shakedowns. It is treating pirates with contempt.





Good point.

I found it very strange that a few people on this thread consider crack users costumers....


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The Red Bladder



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548505 - 22/11/07 10:41 AM
Quote ross johnson:

BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!


It’s been a year since BanPiracy, a company devoted to stopping piracy in the audio software industry, was formed. This is our report card to you, our cohorts in an industry that we love, but one that is also in serious trouble.

Has it been lonely walking the walk as one of the only groups willing to enforce copyright protection for our clients? Absolutely. Do we wish we had more support from audio software developers who are getting their software “cracked” and are afraid to stand up for their rights as businessmen? Most definitely. Are we going to stay the course in our battle with pirates who abuse international copyright protections? Bet on it!

This past year has been one of lessons learned. We learned to accept the harsh reality that the way our company was structured -- as a for-profit LLC which gets its operating income from the collection of fees from those who are unjustly enriching themselves by using unauthorized software – might be a tough sell to manufacturers accustomed to looking the other way when their copyrights were violated. We learned that those who’ve come to depend on “cracked” software see their illegal activity as an unalienable right to exploit the efforts of talented professionals who labored to author that software.

And we’ve learned that there are brave people that will not be cowed by the noise of the rabble who want to take what’s not legally theirs.

It is a tribute to our industry that it supports such ethical publications as Pro Sound News and its European counterpart, Pro Sound News Europe. Both publications in mid-November published extensively-researched stories about our enforcement efforts. The writers of these stories were not afraid to take their shots at what they perceived as our shortcomings, but they bent over backwards to get both sides of the story, and we at BanPiracy acknowledge their professionalism.

In a Pro Sound News story written by Christopher Walsh, Andrew Kirk of PACE Anti-Piracy Inc., the developer of the ILok and InterLok tools, noted the uneven history of audio software manufacturers fighting the pirates, and noted: “BanPiracy has a noble goal,” and added that the audio software markets “do need some enforcement – think about a society in where there was no enforcement of law.”

Another of our counterparts in the anti-piracy campaign is Ray Williams, director of the International Music Software Trade Association. We salute Mr. Williams for his efforts, which were heralded in the Pro Sound News story. “Our whole reason for being,” Mr. Williams told PSN, “is to try to have musicians respect the work of the companies who supply their software tools the same way they respect the makers of their hardware tools.”

We at BanPiracy also welcome the voluminous opinions on Internet message boards about out campaign. One of the most interesting challenges to what we’re doing was posted on Peter Kirn’s Create Digital Music website. In referring to the only client we’ve been able to sign for BanPiracy, Waves Audio, Mr. Kirn wrote, “Waves, I put the challenge to you: either demonstrate you have other developers onboard with you, or stop trying to convince people this is an effort on behalf of the industry.”

Mr. Kirn’s theory is that until Waves Audio, the initial client of BanPiracy, is joined by other software developers, any effort by Waves Audio to promote its involvement in BanPiracy is NOT a legitimate effort on behalf of the audio software industry.

A note to Mr. Kirn: The clients of BanPiracy are not asking your permission, or anyone else’s, to stand up to audio software copyright infringers. BanPiracy hopes that others will join Waves Audio in this fight, but the fight will go on as long as there is one man or woman willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Adrian Anders, who posted the following in a user forum on Mr. Kirn’s website on November 14, 2007.

“I think the studio owners were being very irresponsible to their paying customers,” Mr. Anders wrote in response to the many proponents of “cracked” software who frequent Mr. Kirn’s website. Mr. Anders then added:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”

Count on this, Mr. Anders: You’re not alone in this fight.

By Tomer Elbaz, BanPiracy COO and Michael T. David, BanPiracy CEO, Nov. 20,2007




That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.

The truth is that your one and only client Waves is coming in for FAR more attention on forums and similar for their dishonest business practises. For example here HERE

But I do not see you or your Wave paymasters raising their heads in those threads where clients complain about being cheated or about the abysmal quality of their products.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: _Nuno_]
      #548521 - 22/11/07 11:12 AM
Quote Nuno_:

Quote Mark Knutson:

Maybe this is understood, but waves is not treating its customers in contempt with the lawsuits and shakedowns. It is treating pirates with contempt.





Good point.

I found it very strange that a few people on this thread consider crack users costumers....




No, that's Waves' position, from the horse's mouth. There's even a section on the Banpiracy site enouraging you to put your hand up and go legit. See the "Go Legit" section here.

And they've said as much in e.g ProSound News articles.

If we are to believe what they say, they see the crack users as lost sheep who they are benignly helping to return to the fold and the path of righteousness.

While we're at it, I notice the Banpiracy site claims to be "contracted by many of the biggest names in the industry". It's a bit hard to square that with Mr Johnson's confirmation that they have - er - one client.

Quote The Red Bladder:

That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.




Red, he's a PR spokesman....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (22/11/07 11:15 AM)


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #548528 - 22/11/07 11:28 AM
Quote Steve Hill:


Quote The Red Bladder:

That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.




Red, he's a PR spokesman....






--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Tui
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548611 - 22/11/07 01:42 PM
Man... Waves first digs a big hole... And then jumps. As if they needed any more bad publicity. Their copy-protection schemes are quite possibly the most cumbersome in the industry, and many of their plugs are hopelessly overpriced. And now this.

I have a (legit, yes, thank you) copy of the Ren Maxx bundle, but I find I use it less and less... There is better stuff out there, some of it freeware. There is nothing special about Waves that would warrant the price tag.

To any Waves reps, know this: There is so much negative energy emanating from your company, and your latest initiative, that I wouldn't even consider buying from you again. Hounding some little project studio guy to make up for your doubtful standing in the industry and failed business model is not the way forward. You will fall flat on your face with this. You may not have noticed, but our industry requires a sense of trust, and a positive, creative atmosphere for it to function. If you start sending your secret software police around recording facilities, you soon will be as popular as bird flu.

It has been suggested before: Start treating your paying customers with respect, and offer quality products at a realistic price. Stop focussing on the losers who only use cracks, but invest in your legitimate user base instead.


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2318
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548708 - 22/11/07 04:53 PM
I now know who these two gentlemen really are.

BanPiracy as an independent company or society (or whatever they claim to be) does not exist. The address given is the regional address for the rather 'unusual' company called Allied National. It is a company in Nebraska that earns its money with the rather unsavoury practise of frightening people into paying for goods and services that, very often, they have not received.

Allied National specialise in getting funds out of people by threat. Buying up debt and frightening people into paying is known in the business as Credit Wrenching.

Stated bluntly, Allied National is a dodgy debt collection agency that works on a percentage. Mr David is the manager and Mr Elbaz is one of his employees, who set up the Washington office this March.

Here is their website http://www.andc.com/rates.htm

The trouble with Allied National is that it is a bit of a smoke and mirrors operation. It is also sometimes known as B2B Credit Reporting ( http://www.b2bcreditreporting.com/ )

In and around New York, they are represented by Maidenbaum & Associates also specialises in 'collecting bad debt' as they put it. They are even listed on the website creditwrenchadds - you don't get more blatant than that!

I have also found out a great deal more about all those involved in this little scheme, but I cannot post it here just yet for legal reasons.


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Doublehelix



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548711 - 22/11/07 05:01 PM
I have to echo Steve's comments that Wave's actions seem like those emanating from a dying business. They are desperate, and are willing to try anything. Unfortunately, their approach just serves to alienate their customers and potential customers even more.

I give them a year to either go under or be bought out.

They could abandon their plugin bundle policies and just start selling some of their plugs as one-offs. Much lower costs for end users, and we don't end up with a bunch of plugs that we don't even use.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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sharpeye



Joined: 21/12/04
Posts: 154
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548717 - 22/11/07 05:17 PM
Whatever your opinion, i must say it is good fun watching waves sh*ft themselves!!



oh, and good detective work Red

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth

Edited by sharpeye (22/11/07 05:18 PM)


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548718 - 22/11/07 05:20 PM
Amen to that.

BTW there is a discussion on Slashdot.org right now regarding music piracy and DRM, echoing most sentiments expressed here in this discussion. (surprisingly bs free, for slashdot...)


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: sharpeye]
      #548781 - 22/11/07 06:57 PM
Quote sharpeye:

oh, and good detective work Red




Thanks.

There's lots more to come. Watch this space!

At the moment I am waiting for conformation of a few things, in particular details of past actions by Maidenbaum.


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Paws
Blouse Wearing Nancy


Joined: 20/06/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549592 - 24/11/07 10:08 PM
Legally, piracy is not theft, it is breach of copyright law.

Fascism, however, is fascism, no matter how you bend it.

I personally think funding fascism is much, much worse than breaking copyright law.

(edit - sorry for digging this up, it was linked from another forum and I didn't check the dates)

--------------------
Signature (up to 200 characters). You may use UBBCode in your signature

Edited by Paws (24/11/07 10:11 PM)


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Tommy Tucker



Joined: 27/06/06
Posts: 35
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549594 - 24/11/07 10:35 PM
Re. the "BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!" statement detailed earlier in this thread... you know they're onto a loser when they try to turn this whole issue into an ethical "fight" - if they have a case, this should be a simple matter of legalities.

Waves can paint it any way they like, but to existing and potential customers it looks like they've "sent the boys round" in a desperate attempt to boost their bottom line. I'd sure think twice about blowing £5k on a major Waves bundle - they don't exactly project the image of a comfortably positioned business right now? They could do worse than take a lesson from Steve Massey - great plug-ins, great distribution model, dirt cheap and bucket loads of good customer vibes.

Waves have brought out some very cool plug-ins of late - what the hell are they playing at? Talk about p!ssing on your own doorstep..!?


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TTN



Joined: 14/11/04
Posts: 1087
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #549603 - 24/11/07 11:33 PM
Quote ross johnson:

One of the most interesting challenges to what we’re doing was posted on Peter Kirn’s Create Digital Music website. In referring to the only client we’ve been able to sign for BanPiracy, Waves Audio, Mr. Kirn wrote, “Waves, I put the challenge to you: either demonstrate you have other developers onboard with you, or stop trying to convince people this is an effort on behalf of the industry.”

Mr. Kirn’s theory is that until Waves Audio, the initial client of BanPiracy, is joined by other software developers, any effort by Waves Audio to promote its involvement in BanPiracy is NOT a legitimate effort on behalf of the audio software industry.




I concur. And a fresh challenge: until BanPiracy can demonstrate that is has the backing of respected bodies in the music industry, which ultimately its client(s?) relies upon for its income, it is not a beneficial entity within the music industry, of which the audio software industry is a very small part.

Quote ross johnson:


“... [Waves] software often causes severe problems in DAW environments...”





I think this has been covered in other threads on the forum. Until Waves can solve the problems consumers have with maintaining and upgrading their plugins, studio owners will look for workable ways around. And ultimately look for other plugins.
If Waves continue to use covert methods to open their own potential customer base to litigation, it's logical that they will destroy a large part of this potential customer base also.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Paws]
      #549607 - 25/11/07 12:16 AM
Paws, where have you been for god knows how long... first post in 19 months... we've missed you!

Edited by Steve Hill (25/11/07 12:19 AM)


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
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Loc: London
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: John Willett]
      #549615 - 25/11/07 02:49 AM
Quote John Willett:

Quote Steve Hill:


Quote The Red Bladder:

That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.




Red, he's a PR spokesman....









+1


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549685 - 25/11/07 01:25 PM
Before you read this, I must point out that my wife and I have every ethnic background (black, jews, jocks and even Sicilian Mafia - how cool is that!) in our blood - so to speak. Well, everything except Asian.

I must also point out that I have lived in Israel and still have friends there. You will see why I mention this later.

Here's some background -

All these Israeli companies that produce software for virtual worlds, audio etc., came out of the big push in the military to create a massive technical foundation for things like virtual battlefields, remote guidance, flight simulation and so on. This happened back in the 80's and is a matter of record. I know this because I was partially involved from the broadcast side of things. The technology had to be cleared by the military in both Israel and the US. All today's blue-screen stuff stems from that era.

This software has managed to earn the state of Israel a very large amount of revenue, especially in the military applications side of things.

So far, so good. Nothing illegal or underhand about any of that and the companies involved have always been very open about the military origins of their work.

Just about every Israeli has links to the US. This is the same as the way just about every Scotsman has links to New Zealand and Canada. All the players in this game are born of those links.

All these software companies realise that the software game can only be played so long and no longer. It is a game with a finite end. The time will come (obviously) when no more software can be sold. That means investing the profits of today in the businesses of tomorrow.

If you have been wondering why so little that is new comes out of these houses, wonder no more. Firstly, there is only so much you can produce that is genuinely new. But secondly, the name of the game right now is milk the cow and keep the cheese.

In other words, profit taking.

In the UK, we have more accountants per head of population than anywhere else on Earth. In the US, they have a surfeit of lawyers. Not all these lawyers can earn money through 'normal' channels, giving advice, preparing litigation, drafting contracts and all the other games they play.

It is in the nature of the beast, that they gravitate towards debt collection. After all, that is a large part of what a lawyer does anyway - litigate for bad debt.

In most countries, there are ethical and financial codes that prevent lawyers from becoming pure debt collectors. In Germany for example, you must behave in an ethical manner and you cannot inflate your costs, as every step of every process is governed by a code known as BRAGO. I assume that it is much the same in the UK and elsewhere.

No such impediment seems to exist in most US states. Lawyers can become 'credit wrenchers' pure and simple and even advertise as such.

It is also in the nature of the beast for software companies to have to use the services of lawyers more than most companies, as they are battling over the fraught field of intellectual property.

Software companies like Waves, Antares and others (or rather their owners) are investing in debt collection companies (as well as a host of other things, ranging from real-estate to food manufacture and retailing).

There is one aspect of credit wrenching however that is far from ethical or even legal.

Profiling.

What the Hell, you may ask, is profiling?

It is to treat people differently, according to social, financial and ethnic group. A polite word for discrimination.

One also profiles debt. Credit card? Overdraft? Mortgage? Commercial? Personal? What type of debt is it exactly? Nothing seems unethical or illegal about any of that, surely!

Well, no, until you lump the two together. Some types of debt are easier to collect than others. Some types of debt can be more easily 'rolled over' into a new financial package than others. Some types of debt can be 'reconstructed' into more profitable new debt than others. The star of the debt profile is medical debt.

Poor people in the US seldom have medical cover.

Poor people in the US are more likely to be black or Hispanic.

Poor people are easier to collect debt from and easier to have them 'reconstruct' their debt. Certain ethnic groups are harder to deal with. WASPs are difficult, as they have usually access to lawyers. Jews are very difficult. They very often have lawyers in the family. If you are a debt collector, you stay away from Jewish people, as you stand a very good chance of a counter claim and a complaint to the state Bar association for unethical behavior.

All debt collectors profile both the debt and the debtor.

It is of course illegal to target black people with medical debts, but if you are to make a Buck in the highly competitive World of credit wrangling, well . . . which file do you deal with first, Leroy Jackson or Mannie Cohen?

Which of those two accounts would you buy for 50 Cents on the Dollar?

Which of those two accounts is least likely to counter-sue for negligence or harrasment? Who of those two gentlemen is least likely to read the small print on a refinancing agreement?

You buy the debt for 50%, you refinance and even get a 5% commission and with a bit of luck, you get to buy the thing back when the new debt becomes delinquent once again.

I looked at the list of targeted studios. I noticed a pattern. Have a look. See if you see what I see!

(The New York list is Output Recording Studio, Jambox, Innovative Music, Mambo Recording Studios, M&I Recording, Explode Records, Skyline Recording Studio, Sweet Sound Studios, Uptime, B Reel Recording Studio and the Cutting Room.)

When he is not fight for freedom and justice for Waves Inc., Mr Maidenbaum specialises in medical debt.


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E D



Joined: 10/01/04
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Loc: London
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #549718 - 25/11/07 02:53 PM
Fantastic. I found it difficult on some to see who ran the places but If the point you are making is true then that becomes the Icing on the already cardboard cake!

Can this Ban Piracy venture become any more scandalous!?









Talk about unethical practices why don't you!


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549765 - 25/11/07 05:49 PM
Racial profiling by banpiracy? As detestable as they are, I will require more foundation before I give creedence to that notion. And the comments about the dept collection attributes of each ethnic group strike me as a tastelessly close to racial profiling in and of itself.


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #549768 - 25/11/07 05:54 PM
Quote Mark Knutson:

Racial profiling by banpiracy? As detestable as they are, I will require more foundation before I give creedence to that notion. And the comments about the dept collection attributes of each ethnic group strike me as a tastelessly close to racial profiling in and of itself.





As much as I love ya Andy, I had the same initial reaction as Mark. Sometimes these things are just reality and the numbers speak for themselves, but it just strikes a nerve somewhere to see it written like that.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1210
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #549778 - 25/11/07 06:17 PM
There are huge amounts of money at stake and history has shown us that ethics generally take a back seat to greed.


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Asiotrot



Joined: 24/10/07
Posts: 31
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #549804 - 25/11/07 07:36 PM
Quote:

(The New York list is Output Recording Studio, Jambox, Innovative Music, Mambo Recording Studios, M&I Recording, Explode Records, Skyline Recording Studio, Sweet Sound Studios, Uptime, B Reel Recording Studio and the Cutting Room.)





Is This your source for this list? It's identical to the one you posted. I accuse you of nothing at all, nor am I trying to imply anything. I'm just curious. You could have the same source as this blogger, or actually be him, and there's nothing wrong with using the blog as a source anyway. Just curious.

In any case, I would have to see evidence of these studios being the incapable of even reading the small print of a legal notice (as your post implies Waves might believe) before I'd believe that Waves is targeting them as a soft touch. That'sthe only way your agrument could work, if they actually were a very easy target. I imagine it's more likely these people can afford a lawyer of two, whether individually or as a group. And there is The EFF who apparently help with these things. I don't think there is a parallel between a group of recording studios and uninformed, perhaps ill-educated poor people, and I don't really think Waves do either.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549848 - 25/11/07 09:32 PM
Waves have issued no denials of the Future Music story. Ross's flowery press release praised ProSound News and makes no mention of other journals which have covered this story. I wonder why? (And PSN has, for the avoidance of doubt, been pretty balanced... just less than downright critical).

Like it or not, Waves' agents on both East and West coasts are, when all is said and done, a bunch of debt collectors paid on a no-win, no-fee basis. Some conclusions can be drawn from that. Some ethnicities might be under- or over-represented on their hit lists, to an extent which is not necessarily proportionate to the propensity of those groups to commit crimes.

I reckon Andy is to be praised for raising, at least for discussion purposes, and in a pretty sensitive way, a subject which might have something to do with Waves' actions.

And if Waves themselves find that an unacceptable notion, they only have to make a public statement backed up with some verifiable information. Court documents are a matter of public record, so who are they suing and in which courts, worldwide?

If they don't want to share that information with their actual and potential customer base, why not? Especially since their stated position seems to be supported by demonstrating to any enquiring public platform that they are getting tough with pirates and taking no prisoners.

And if they don't make such a statement, can they in such circumstances criticise people for drawing their own conclusions (rightly or wrongly) about what's going on?

No serious PR outfit (and I've personally worked with several including Lord Bell) would be playing it this badly... except with the objective of obfuscation. When your company is being roundly and noisily criticised all over the world, and literally hundreds of customers are publicly deserting you all over the internet, and influencing many thousands more, a bunker mentality of "no comment unless abolutely unavoidable" is frankly just stupid.

Every PR on the planet learned those lessons thirty years ago or more. Leave the bad gossip to fester and it will. If you've got a positive story, get it out. As loud as you can.

I am forced to the conclusion there is no positive story.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #549854 - 25/11/07 09:43 PM
Quote Doublehelix:

Quote Mark Knutson:

Racial profiling by banpiracy? As detestable as they are, I will require more foundation before I give creedence to that notion. And the comments about the dept collection attributes of each ethnic group strike me as a tastelessly close to racial profiling in and of itself.





As much as I love ya Andy, I had the same initial reaction as Mark. Sometimes these things are just reality and the numbers speak for themselves, but it just strikes a nerve somewhere to see it written like that.




Perhaps I didn't make myself clear on that point, but until I see the numbers, I don't consider it a fact that we are too polite to speak aloud, I consider it speculation or a rumor.


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Nathan]
      #549887 - 25/11/07 10:35 PM
Quote Nathan:

i feel i don't make ny headway with the youths i teach/help. it's fair game to them. you get funny looks if you suggest that they should buy software/music downloads.

even funnier looks if you ask them where they're taking their band/ DJ collective and how they were planning on making a living out of it.




Oh well, I guess I've just done myself out of a few bob, by copying one of my own CD's.
This industry is going mad, it started to alienate people in the 70's with its draconian cassette levies etc, when will the big companies recognise that they cant have there cake and eat it too, owning hardware and software, and controlling how we, the public consume both, it's megalomania gone mad. And before everyone starts bleating about royalties and making money from music, well,those days are over, and its about time we all moved on.

Take care,

Tony.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #549893 - 25/11/07 10:42 PM
Quote arpangel:

And before everyone starts bleating about royalties and making money from music, well,those days are over, and its about time we all moved on.




Moved on to the dole queue?

It's not actually an unreasonable aspiration for a professional musician to expect to be paid for his efforts, after probably years of study and practice.

I'd be interested to know what your Plan B is... although it's probably a different topic!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #549913 - 25/11/07 11:26 PM
Quote Steve Hill:



Moved on to the dole queue?

It's not actually an unreasonable aspiration for a professional musician to expect to be paid for his efforts, after probably years of study and practice.

I'd be interested to know what your Plan B is... although it's probably a different topic!




Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?
Also, I never had a plan A let alone a plan B !

Take care Steve,

Tony.


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Colin J Morris



Joined: 28/08/06
Posts: 883
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #549915 - 25/11/07 11:29 PM
Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?
Also, I never had a plan A let alone a plan B !

Take care Steve,

Tony.




The future is selling out. Flog your wares to the big corporations so they can sell their evil goods in advertisements!

Hey, I've gotta make a living somehow...

--------------------
=http://www.colinjmorris.com


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electrotimba



Joined: 03/09/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #549944 - 26/11/07 01:53 AM
Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: electrotimba]
      #549990 - 26/11/07 09:23 AM
Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.




Thats why I've actually started to make music that can be repeated ! live, a major sea change for me, and I guess that could be my plan B. The only trouble I have is that I'm not very attractive to the average punter, being fat and 50 doesn't go down too well on stage.

Take care,

Tony.


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Agamemnon
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #550002 - 26/11/07 09:59 AM
Fat and 50? Join the club, though I was still unattractive even when thin and 20. Seriously considering diet, makeover, gorilla suit etc.....


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The Red Bladder



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #550038 - 26/11/07 11:25 AM

I am not (for very obvious reasons) accusing Allied National or Mr David or My Maidenbaum of anything.

For the record, I am not some prat blogger, but a studio owner with absolutely no interest in any of this, other than as an observer. We only use Radar and R2R for tracking, so I do not even use Waves as we are 100% hardware based and, apart from the fact that I have looked at it at the AES and didn't like the reverbs much, that's it.

I can sympathise with Mr David and Mr Maidenbaum. I too have (in my youth) worked for a debt collection agency and as a businessman, I have had my fair share of delinquent debts. There's nothing quite like being a small PA company and have an agency go bankrupt, owing you £27,000 when you have staff to pay that week.

Today, I help ex-servicemen deal with their debts and that can be very frustrating. One gets to the point where one looses all sympathy for debtors. Boxes of final demands lie unopened, under the bed. With the bailiff at the door, credit cards are being still loaded up. Faced with eviction, the wife goes out and buys a new piano on credit.

But these are people who have ridden, full-tilt, into their own demise. The reasons for their debt are nearly always of their own making.

Medical debt is different. In Europe, medical debt is a very rare animal. In the UK, medical bills are picked up by the tax-payer, in mainland Europe, so-called social insurance is compulsory.

I regard debt collection of medical debt an unethical practise and those that specialise in medical 'credit wrenching' as unethical people, because -

1. Insurance companies do not pay on the Dollar. They discount the invoice and some pay as little as 60 Cents on the Dollar. The 'wrencher' however, seeks to collect the full amount, plus interest and process fees and penalty charges. Had the patient been insured, the health provider would have received only some of that amount. It is often the case that a $10,000 invoice (for which the provider would have received $8,000 tops) turns into a $25,000 debt.

2. I am a firm believer in universal health care. A moral and just society is a society that provides this care. For anybody to profit from the state's moral dereliction is despicable, in my opinion.

It is for these reasons that I have taken the time out to look upon the moral justifications of the BanPiracy claims and the business backgrounds of Mr David and Mr Maidenbaum.

That list of New York studios puzzles me.

We are talking about the music business and we are talking about New York here. Now go and take a look at the websites of these studios.

Let me put it this way -

When I lived in Israel, I learnt two things on the very first day.

1. Everybody is a politician.

2. Everybody has a mad aunt in New York. (Even I had a mad aunt in New York. She sent me cake and socks. I asked her why and she said it was special cake. I asked her what was so special about the cake - she said it was kosher!)


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steveman



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #550051 - 26/11/07 11:40 AM
Not directly related to waves but this seems familiar...


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Asiotrot



Joined: 24/10/07
Posts: 31
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #550056 - 26/11/07 11:48 AM
From This long news article, buried towards the end:

Quote:

In one case, a BSA raid on musical-instrument maker Ernie Ball Inc. cost the company $90,000 in a settlement. Soon after, Microsoft sent other businesses in his region a flyer offering discounts on software licenses, along with a reminder not to wind up like Ernie Ball.

Enraged, CEO Sterling Ball vowed never to use Microsoft software again, even if "we have to buy 10,000 abacuses." He shifted to open-source software, which lacks such legal entanglements because its underlying code is freely distributed.




And this from another article:

Quote:

The real motivation came when his company was busted in 2000 by the Business Software Alliance (BSA) for running pirated copies of software from Adobe Systems, Autodesk, FileMaker and Microsoft. After conducting an "unannounced software audit," the nonprofit trade group representing major software vendors, found that about 8 percent of the software used on Ernie Ball computers was illegally installed.





The article discusses the activities of the Business Software Alliance, who appear to have been on a Banpiracy trip since 1988. The anecdote took place in 2000. I wonder would Waves have been better off, as in kept a little more credibility by associating itself with someone like this, instead of creating their own front? The BSA appear to have the same despicable tactics as Waves, but with the added bonus of actually having some broad backing from the industry. Oh well, it's more than a little late now...

Edit: Link to the second article.

Edited by Asiotrot (26/11/07 11:54 AM)


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electrotimba



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 995
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #550059 - 26/11/07 11:51 AM
Quote arpangel:

Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.




Thats why I've actually started to make music that can be repeated ! live, a major sea change for me, and I guess that could be my plan B. The only trouble I have is that I'm not very attractive to the average punter, being fat and 50 doesn't go down too well on stage.

Take care,

Tony.



Again it can be to your advantage, same way that 14 year old girls identify with their skeleton looking heros and heroins ( I wont use the word artist to describe someone like Rihanna). Of course if you are aiming at under 16 audience, you have a problem.


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: electrotimba]
      #550516 - 27/11/07 10:56 AM
Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:

Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.




Thats why I've actually started to make music that can be repeated ! live, a major sea change for me, and I guess that could be my plan B. The only trouble I have is that I'm not very attractive to the average punter, being fat and 50 doesn't go down too well on stage.

Take care,

Tony.




Of course if you are aiming at under 16 audience, you have a problem.




I'm aiming at any audience, no mater what their age, as a matter of fact, I mugged a baby in the street the other day and forced him to buy one of my CD's, I said if he didn't I would throw his toys out of his pram......

Tony.


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