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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9349
Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story
      #534523 - 16/10/07 03:00 PM


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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534548 - 16/10/07 03:29 PM
Funnily enough, just the other day these exact two geezers rolled up in a white van, got out, and said "Do you wanna buy some speakers..?"



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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534639 - 16/10/07 06:22 PM
Usual disclaimer: I'm totally against piracy.

So the guy on the left is a former director of Waves and "Waves is our initial client".

That's not exactly an impartial industry initiative is it?

As to the statement that "80% of European studios" are using pirated siftware - well possibly if you include every bedroom PC. I think that's a risible statemet and frankly defamatory to a (largely) honest and respectable industry - and not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.

And given the furore caused by Waves bullying tactics with their own "initiative", I'd be surprised if many other reputable industry players want to climb on this particular bandwagon only to see their own brands damaged by association.

Waves shot themselves in the foot bigtime (and possibly also the anti-piracy cause). It will be a rash company which rushes to do the same.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Henry-S
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534677 - 16/10/07 07:50 PM
What I don't understand is how they can enforce this??

They don't have any right to come into your studio (well to some people their home) and just say "oh excuse me I want to pop in look at all your computers and check what software you are using".

I just have no idea how they plan to do this and as for 80% of the software being cracked in europe are you having a laugh... so that means that all the companies are able to develop and release new products on 1/5 of what they should be making? I think Mr banpiracy plucked that figure out of the sky.

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There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky


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JamesSimpson



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Posts: 1081
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534700 - 16/10/07 08:27 PM
This is all well and good, but as far as i can tell. Anybody i know thats using waves software, if they have the cracked version. They wouldnt have bought it otherwise, anybody that really has the facilities and need to use it such as large studios, have actually paid for it.

If waves are expecting all the laptop bedroom producers to go out and buy their software cause of a threat that they might face legal action is just ludicrous, the most likely thing from a scare is that they will simply delete the software. Leading less people to go on and buy from waves when they can afford it.

I dont think this can be compared to illegal music filesharing as that is something that everybody can afford to buy but given the option 8/10 people are going to go for the option where they can get a £10 cd for free.

Meh i dont use waves anyway

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


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Colin J Morris



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534726 - 16/10/07 09:12 PM
I thought that was a washing machine in the background..

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=http://www.colinjmorris.com


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Kwackman



Joined: 07/11/02
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534732 - 16/10/07 09:36 PM
I'm a home studio, and all my software/plugins are legit and registered.

80% of European studios using cracks?
I smell marketing hype there.
Funny how they didn't name any other software companies other than Waves- I wonder if that means they don't have anyone else yet?
It'll be interesting to see how the first court cases they mention go.


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Dave B



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Loc: Maidenhead
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534737 - 16/10/07 09:50 PM
Erm ... obvious question : How do they identify the 'studios' that are using cracks? I'm missing something here.... or can anyone simply demand access to your work / home to perform an audit without question?

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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Dave B



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534741 - 16/10/07 09:54 PM
Just found their website and it has the following :

Quote:


Email us at report@banpiracy.com to report cases of illegal audio software usage.

Your anonymity will be completely protected.




hmmmmnnnnn..... anyone know the legal implications of a blind tip-off? Does it stand up in court?

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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Henry-S
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534754 - 16/10/07 10:15 PM
So basically they don't know any studios at all and this is a direct quote from their website

"It is very easy to trace the use of cracked software.
Today, BanPiracy is in the process of prosecuting hundreds
and hundreds of cases worldwide."

No what they mean is "its very easy, we get an email from anyone in the world telling us a studio is using cracks". clap clap banpiracy, your method of tracing cracked software sounds like the Trotters Independant Trading way of doing it

Seriously, so I email waves, say The Saw Mills (or any other studio Air, Abbey Road lol!) are using cracks and they send a guy round?? What dribble, a waste of money. If music software companies create good software at a competative price, users will buy it.



--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (16/10/07 10:18 PM)


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Jack Ruston



Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 4546
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534763 - 16/10/07 10:27 PM
Well I'm afraid you guys might be wrong about this...If I had a waves plug in for every time a producer has offered me the whole set 'cracked' I'd have the diamond bundle by now...honestly...I've not met anyone who's using the legit version I dont think...And quite frankly they're using them on everything. They consider them superior and they use them accordingly.

A lot of these people are making good money. Waves have EVERY right to do this, and if an independant body sets up to pursue people then so be it.

Guys...these people are using their extensive plug in lists to take work that might otherwise have come to you. You may not want to believe that but 'waves' is like 'pro tools' in a studio. Punters like it.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com


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MC Deli



Joined: 05/10/04
Posts: 494
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534765 - 16/10/07 10:36 PM
It is a bit odd that Waves are basically throwing themselves under this particular train. They will suffer long term, especially their brand. It is a big PR gamble. But I am surprised a software company has not taken this stance before.

What I find totally surreal is how I speak to friends of mine who are in the music business, and they are 'struggling'; desperate to get composing gigs, writing songs they hope others will license, praying that one of their releases or stock compostions on the shelf will be taken for a commercial or corporate; basically desperate for any kind of income from licensing their work - and then with the other hand they are on Bit Torrent downloading samples and cracked plug-ins!

...I am actually quite stupified the more I think about it...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Jack Ruston]
      #534775 - 16/10/07 10:51 PM
Jack - they have the right. It's the methods that suck, including barefaced entrapment (see previous threads e.g. the story about the guy who downloaded a demo to - er - demonstrate to the Waves mystery shopper, and confirmed if they booked the studio he'd buy it: they nicked him!).

Stories like this - which they don't even try to deny, but seek through legal spokesmen to justify as being a fair cop (!!!) are more than enough to ensure that I at least will never sully my studio with their rotten product in a million years.

If you know lots of producers using cracks, turn them in - they are unfair competition to you, and get no sympathy from me.

But on the basic economics of the thing - £7,500 for the Mercury Bundle? At Thomann prices? They are having a laugh. It's just not anywhere near that good.

No matter how hard you try, you can't spend a third of that on say four UAD cards and every bit of software available to run on them.

And that's Waves' problem. They are fighting the wrong war, because to admit their product is (at least) twice the price the market is prepared to pay will piss off a lot of stockholders. Tough. That's the business they're in.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Martin Robinson



Joined: 10/09/07
Posts: 124
Loc: Ireland
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534783 - 16/10/07 11:04 PM
I find it unlikely that they'll be turning users of pirated software into customers by levying "penalties" against them.


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Stevedog



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534793 - 16/10/07 11:45 PM
Well, i now know of 4 long established studios, including two very well known ones, who have been caught using Waves with no license . One of them told Waves. "Heres 500 quid, that's actually what it is worth, now go away"..

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog


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-=@(*_*)@=-
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534821 - 17/10/07 02:14 AM
That's what I think:

If you are making any money out of your music, you SHOULD not be forgiven if you are caught using software.

If you are a bed room musician hobbyist, and just try things out, maybe for fun, maybe you also know that you will never make it, therefore you are not taking it seriously, and most likely cannot afford the real price... That' s more understandable.

Further, I'll compare this to the great and fantastic:
http://www.jeroenwijering.com/
Thanks to the SOS member (forgot his/her name) who introduced me to him a while back.

Jeroen say: It's FREE to download and use. BUT, for commercial use, buy a license. As a side note, his products beat anything out there.

Now, you would have to be a big scum bag to make money out of Jeroen's products, and not pay him for a license, which is ridiculously cheap.

I am NOT saying that every companies should do the same, but this is a good example of how things could work in this world.

Once again, my problem is real Studios, or people making money with music, and use cracks, this is no good. Or, Mr big shot, who drives a big expensive car, latest mobile phone, high payed job - and use F***ing cracks!

I would NOT want to see a poor man with a GOOD heart being penalized because he uses cracks, because maybe, that' all he has got in his life, a computer and few software, and he/she cannot even afford the household bills.

This is my theory in this world. Probably many won't agree with me, but that's what I think.

What I hate, is the musician who's got a budget for a setup, spend all his/her money on the kit, then didn't save for software, and use cracks instead.

I like Robin Hood, I like Mother theresa, I like the REAL MAFIA back in Sicily, where they used to still from the rich, to give to the poor. Jesus said, men shouldn't be prosecuted if they still food because they are hungry. Today we live in abundance, we are spoiled, compare to our grand parents, and great grand parents. Food is more available, but poverty still exist, and the internet can help people, they can socialize more easily. So I compared the food with the plugins, while it's not quite the same, ok, but I would say, open your mind, and see the big picture. It's still a cruel world, indeed.

--------------------
-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/

Edited by lg (17/10/07 02:19 AM)


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Tim.



Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 2458
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #534834 - 17/10/07 07:07 AM
Quote:

But on the basic economics of the thing - £7,500 for the Mercury Bundle? At Thomann prices? They are having a laugh. It's just not anywhere near that good.




They aren’t having a laugh Steve; they have always had a plan.

Waves cynically raised their prices to such a ridiculous level knowing full well it would attract a lot of people… to use a crack… thereby creating a huge number of people they could go after for even larger sums of money.

What we are seeing is phase two of their plan swinging into action.

I’m not saying companies shouldn’t make a profit, of course they should. Companies have every right to protect their IP but Waves tactic seems such a transparent and cynical manipulation; a money making plan, nothing more, nothing less.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com


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phlebas



Joined: 28/11/06
Posts: 16
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534856 - 17/10/07 08:38 AM
i'm gonna go out on a limb and admit to using cracked software on a try-before-buy basis - where else in life would you spend a large sum of money without trying out the product first?

here's my question - why don't software companies generally lower their prices? While (for instance) Waves Diamond Bundle is £2000+, and crackable, of course even usually honest people are going to be tempted. if it cost 80% less, maybe those 80% of users would buy the software?

The other question of course is why they made their software crackable - you don't see people stealing copies of cubase 4 because the security is up to the job...

--------------------
the first of recording is, don't talk about recording...


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Martin Robinson



Joined: 10/09/07
Posts: 124
Loc: Ireland
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Tim.]
      #534857 - 17/10/07 08:38 AM
I think that might be a bit of a stretch, Tim. I think they're just trying to scare people into not using pirated copies of their software. I would contest however, that most people using pirated copies are not "studios"; they are people with a computer and a mic in their bedrooms. They'll happily use an expensive plugin bundle if they can get it for free, but they'd never pay thousands of pounds for one.

Now, I have no doubt that there are commercial enterprises who are using pirated copies; I hope it's these people who they are going to go after. But their 80% statistic would lead me to believe that they are including pretty much anyone with a copy of ProTools in their definition of a studio.


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sharpeye



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Posts: 154
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534858 - 17/10/07 08:41 AM
someone i know was caught out recently by a client visiting their studio, saying they wanted that 'waves sound' on a recording, so when the engineer (who wouldnt normally use waves) installed a crack - just for this project - a week later he gets a bill for £5,000.00 from waves to avoid legal action.

I dont agree with using pirated software, but i also strongly object to entrapment - the police cant do it - why should waves be able to get away with it?

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: sharpeye]
      #534864 - 17/10/07 09:09 AM
I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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_Nuno_



Joined: 20/05/06
Posts: 804
Loc: Cork, Ireland
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: phlebas]
      #534867 - 17/10/07 09:15 AM
Quote phlebas:

if it cost 80% less, maybe those 80% of users would buy the software?






While we're at it, why not for free? Or maybe everyone that works in waves should get whatever the minimum salary in Bangladesh is, as long as they can price their products to your convenience. Maybe 0.1 an hour would be good for you? A software engineer working for 6 months on a project at a 40 hour week would get a whooping 96 euros in those 6 months and thus the product could have an 80% price cut, or whatever percentage you decide to pull out of your ass.

Waves methods may not be nice, but people using cracked software for commercial purposes are parasites. Getting away with paying the normal price of the software is too little, in my opinion.


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Phil O
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534881 - 17/10/07 09:42 AM
+1 for the pro Waves camp here. As a legitimate user and supporter of the product, I support any initiatives to remove illegal users from the 'game'.
Yes, the 'Israeli' way might be seen as heavy handed but legitimate users have nothing to fear.

I actually wonder if Banpiracy is actually an attempt (by Waves) to distance the company from the enforcement activities.


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #534890 - 17/10/07 09:52 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!




I am just imagining this confrontation - wonderful.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Henry-S
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534896 - 17/10/07 10:03 AM
Nuno, the fact is that "their" product is not worth £7,500 I mean seriously, when you put Waves plugins into perspective...

a UAD Extreme costs £1299 - 32 plugins

buy another 3 UAD cards (3 x project pak) = £800

so you have spent £2099 and now have 4 dsp cards and 32 plugins. Ok so you fancy Altiverb because its probably the best verb on the planet... we are upto £2500 oh and then you can buy a Mac Book Pro Laptop (2.4gigs duo, 2 gigs memory, 160gig drive, 8 x double layer dvd drive and a 256 G force card) £1,799.00. So we are now upto £4299

Lets whack on a Fireface 800 for £770 and while we are here I will whack on a Mackie Control Universal Pro for £900 and we are upto £5969.

Oh and lets add in a Focusrite isa 428 £1200 so thats £7169 or you could go for a 828 for £1700 and be like £7650

So its either the Wave Mecury pack or

UAD Extreme Plugins Set
4 x UAD cards
Altiverb
Mac Book Pro Laptop (17 inch)
Mackie Control Universal Pro
RME Fireface 800
Focusrite 428/828 Preamp

I think I know which bundle I would choose and just think if you already have a good computer, you could spend the £1799 on a pair of 1k monitors and then spend the £800 on some acoustic panels I would never choose a studio on what plugins they have, you choose a studio because of the recording spaces and of course budget and a small thing called... The Engineer

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (17/10/07 10:08 AM)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Henry-S]
      #534919 - 17/10/07 10:56 AM
My point exactly. I was just too lazy to do the maths.

UAD can do say the Neve 88RS channel strip at $239. I doubt if the software engineers in California consider themselves underpaid. And probably nobody ever has to pay $239 because every three months or so UAD reward their loyal customers with some discount vouchers. (There's a $25 discount on it throughout October, and another $150 discount available if you buy another card before 31 December.)

Israeli corporate accountability is notoriously non-transparent (Swiss bank accounts are easier to penetrate), but someone is making unreasonable shed-loads of money here. And they're not having any of mine to add to their grubby profiteering little pile.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Jack Ruston



Joined: 21/12/05
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #534925 - 17/10/07 11:17 AM
Everything you're saying makes perfect sense...there are other equally good if not better options out there for the majority of the plug ins on offer and at a more attractive price...the consumer has choice...

BUT the real issue here is that people just don't see piracy as a 'proper crime' so accordingly, those who would NEVER steal a packet of sweets from a supermarket think it quite ok to use cracked plug ins...it probably falls into the 'little bit naughty but everyone does it' category for them. And as increasingly, our world goes from the tangible to the virtual, now is the time to stamp a value on these things, to draw a line with software and music and film and try to change people's attitudes to protect our livlihoods. So any new company that aims to enforce these copyrights and thereby change the way people percieve piracy is doing us all a favour...regardless of how we might feel about their previous employment.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com


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Doublehelix



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #534959 - 17/10/07 12:43 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Jack - they have the right. It's the methods that suck, including barefaced entrapment (see previous threads e.g. the story about the guy who downloaded a demo to - er - demonstrate to the Waves mystery shopper, and confirmed if they booked the studio he'd buy it: they nicked him!).





Steve, I have heard this story as well, and I find it a bit hard to believe that this is *exactly* the way it happened for several reasons:

1) If someone asked me about Waves plugs in my studio, the *last* thing I would think about doing is downloading *anything* to show them how the plugs worked. In the extreme, I might call up the Waves website to show them a few things, but this just seems a bit far-fetched and smells a bit funny...

2) If it really did happen as is claimed in the stories, this guy would have MORE THAN ENOUGH legal ground to stand on to fight this. Come on, a legit 14-day demo version and then a bill??? That just doesn't happen, I am sorry. Tons of folks download the Waves demos from the Waves site, use them for 14 days or less, and let them expire.

There is just something about this story that doesn't seem quite right, even though I have heard it repeated several times.

Maybe the guy actually downloaded a crack and not a demo? Maybe the guy already had it on his computer and then claimed that he "just downloaded it" to make his story sound better???

I am just guessing here...

First off, it is pretty well known around here that I am not a Waves fan, and no longer support them. I think there policies are crap, and this latest scheme of using entrapment tactics is stooping to a new low, but I still have to say that some of the stories, as Mr. Tolkien said, "Grew in the telling...".

I do believe that they are sending in their agents and working to coerce studios to show them their Waves plugins, and "encouraging" them to download cracks so they can bust them... that part I believe, but this part about getting busted for downloading a demo is a bit much.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #534971 - 17/10/07 01:16 PM
The license agreement you accept pre-install says you cannot use demos in a commercial environment.

So *technically*, even installing a demo and showing it to a client is breaking the terms of the license. Whether it's "illegal" or whatever, or would hold up in court is another matter entirely, but it would cost the user to find out...

I don't have a problem with companies taking a stand and willing to be the bad guy to fight abuse of their intellectual property. Mystery shopping doesn't qualify as entrapment either as I understand.

I am somewhat bemused at the "Waves, the big baddie going after us innocent studio owners" attitude that follows this story around. People running cracks don't really deserve any sympathy, *especially* in a commercial setting.

(The "demo" situation is a little different and understandable)

In short, if you have paid for all your software and have legitimate installs, you have nothing to worry about, even if Waves *do* decide to target you. It's not that much different to business software audits, and they are common in other industries.

I *do* think the whole Banpiracy organisation is trying to pretend to be a united front against piracy when all it looks like is a collection agency, but that's another matter. Their image problem is what may prevent other companies signing on with them, but in many ways I think it's good Waves took a stand and said "Ok, enough is enough, time to get a little more serious" - I'm sure many other software companies are watching the outcome of this *very* carefully...


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #535003 - 17/10/07 02:08 PM
Quote desmond:

The license agreement you accept pre-install says you cannot use demos in a commercial environment.

So *technically*, even installing a demo and showing it to a client is breaking the terms of the license. Whether it's "illegal" or whatever, or would hold up in court is another matter entirely, but it would cost the user to find out...

I don't have a problem with companies taking a stand and willing to be the bad guy to fight abuse of their intellectual property. Mystery shopping doesn't qualify as entrapment either as I understand.

I am somewhat bemused at the "Waves, the big baddie going after us innocent studio owners" attitude that follows this story around. People running cracks don't really deserve any sympathy, *especially* in a commercial setting.

(The "demo" situation is a little different and understandable)

In short, if you have paid for all your software and have legitimate installs, you have nothing to worry about, even if Waves *do* decide to target you. It's not that much different to business software audits, and they are common in other industries.

I *do* think the whole Banpiracy organisation is trying to pretend to be a united front against piracy when all it looks like is a collection agency, but that's another matter. Their image problem is what may prevent other companies signing on with them, but in many ways I think it's good Waves took a stand and said "Ok, enough is enough, time to get a little more serious" - I'm sure many other software companies are watching the outcome of this *very* carefully...




This might be true, however, if you are a commercial studio how do you use a demo in a non-commercial environment? This seems crazy and a good way to annoy alot of genuine customers.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #535016 - 17/10/07 02:26 PM
Presumably in off-hours, when the studio is closed and doesn't have paying clients in it, you check out the software for evaluation purposes only, you don't commit any processing to clients projects and you uninstall before the next session.

Dunno, I can't say I've ever read the license in full...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #535017 - 17/10/07 02:26 PM
Quote thenaturallevel:

This might be true, however, if you are a commercial studio how do you use a demo in a non-commercial environment? This seems crazy and a good way to annoy alot of genuine customers.




I might use a demo, in my own time, to learn a package and to decide whether to buy it for commercial exploitation.

There's lots of reasons why a commercial studio might want to try before they buy!

I agree with DH a bit though - there are a few stories surrounding this whole saga which add up to "methinks he doth protest too much". Pinches of salt required all round.

But it's still overpriced for what it is!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #535058 - 17/10/07 03:44 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

There's lots of reasons why a commercial studio might want to try before they buy!




Of course - but there's a difference between the owners/managers of a commercial studio demoing the product outside of a session to make a purchase decision, versus actually using demos on clients' projects during a paid session - and it's that Waves want to be firm on.


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Phil O
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #535061 - 17/10/07 03:46 PM
I agree with Steve and others that, in the current economic climate (particularly as regards the music industry), the software is overpriced. Many small and even medium sized concerns would struggle to justify the outlay.

In so far as the pricing policy does have an impact on whether users can justify the purchase, that is a legitimate point. I feel that less would be inclined to use illegal copies if there was a better perception of value for money. That said, this is, in fact a separate issue form enforcing IPR's.


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Henry-S
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #535079 - 17/10/07 04:30 PM
With Waves there is "no value for money" its a name which has become one that people pay for, just like pro tools and the problem is now.... people realise you can get the same products for less money.

The reason why 20% of people only buy is because the other 80% either download it and the other people go and buy other plugins which are a reasonable price. I mean don't get me wrong C4 and L2 are great plugins, but other that that nothing in the Waves range makes me go "oh woah I must have that".

Now yeah 2k for the Mercury bundle, thats looking more attractive (although still think the UAD/DSP would be my avenue) but they surely would notice the amount of cracked copies being used go down because it would actually be classed as "an afforadable" set of plugs.

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky


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_Nuno_



Joined: 20/05/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Henry-S]
      #535194 - 17/10/07 09:14 PM
Quote Henry-S:

Nuno, the fact is that "their" product is not worth £7,500 .....





Well, that is your opinion, and it may well be mine also, but I fail to see how the hell that serves as any justification to piracy.

And, while we're at it, every other month there's some big name producer featured in SOS that uses renEQ and RenComp, two plug ins that can be bought in a bundle for around 180 euros. How come that never gets mentioned in these threads? All people mention is one the top of the line biggest bundle that probably has many years of development behind it. Waves think that it has that value. Don't agree? There are many options available.

These threads all end up in people trying to blame waves for creating or at least encouraging piracy of their own software. Yet, all software is pirated, regardless of price. There's plenty of cracks and serial generators of voxengo, is that also because they're overpriced?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: _Nuno_]
      #535200 - 17/10/07 09:31 PM
I don't see a lot of people here trying to "justify piracy".

It's perfectly fair comment to discuss whether Waves' pricing (and indeed enforcement tactics) might be part of their problem, rather than a solution. As you say, it's a matter of opinion.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #535300 - 18/10/07 07:51 AM
I have followed this thread with interest as I have been tempted by Waves plugins in the past. I acted on my right as a consumer not to buy their product. Software piracy is theft simple as, however, as has been mentioned before Waves are not the only kid in town.


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Jez (mahoobley)
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #535308 - 18/10/07 08:04 AM
So are 'Banpiracy' (what kind of name is that anyway? Like piracy isn't already 'banned') going to go after people who crack any brand of audio software, or just Waves stuff?

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #535310 - 18/10/07 08:06 AM
Quote desmond:

Presumably in off-hours, when the studio is closed and doesn't have paying clients in it, you check out the software for evaluation purposes only, you don't commit any processing to clients projects and you uninstall before the next session.

Dunno, I can't say I've ever read the license in full...




I think their lawyers will look to enforce this as not to be used in a commercial studio at all, either during "working hours", or when it is closed. A lot of studios don't work "normal" 9-5 hours so this would be difficult to enforce. If it was me and I was looking to spend £7500 I would want to test it on a real project.


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Martin WalkerModerator
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Posts: 17585
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Jez (mahoobley)]
      #535464 - 18/10/07 01:53 PM
Quote Mahoobley:

So are 'Banpiracy' (what kind of name is that anyway? Like piracy isn't already 'banned') going to go after people who crack any brand of audio software, or just Waves stuff?




They imply in that interview that they only pursue on behalf of specific clients, Waves being the first one on their books.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic


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sharpeye



Joined: 21/12/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #535468 - 18/10/07 01:59 PM
I get the feeling that maybe waves are aware their products are overpriced in todays market, and this is a bit of a last stand to rake in as much cash as possible from non legit users - which is fair enough - before their sales dry up completely.

I also think that their statements re 80% of european studios using cracked software are fairly spurious and should be backed up, before Waves - and any other companies that join in with this witch hunt - lose their good reputations.

The only other thing i would say is that companies - both in the world of music and software - need to wise up to the digital age we live in, and sort out things like rights management and copy protection, as at present it is a bit of a shambles. If the product is so freely available, inevitably people will use it, whether right or wrong.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth


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djangodeadman
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #535469 - 18/10/07 02:01 PM
Quote thenaturallevel:

I have followed this thread with interest as I have been tempted by Waves plugins in the past. I acted on my right as a consumer not to buy their product. Software piracy is theft simple as, however, as has been mentioned before Waves are not the only kid in town.



Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: djangodeadman]
      #535486 - 18/10/07 02:39 PM
Yeah, I take this view.

The phrase "software piracy is theft" is a marketing term used by the copyright owners to help try and stop people using pirate software out of fear/guilt/morals/whatever.

Software piracy is copyright infringement, unauthorised and unlicensed use, and a whole bunch of other stuff depending on the intellectual property, terms of use, license restrictions and whatever else is valid.

However, it is not theft under any definition of the term, nor seen as such under most legal frameworks, as far as I understand...


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #535496 - 18/10/07 02:55 PM
Quote desmond:

Yeah, I take this view.

The phrase "software piracy is theft" is a marketing term used by the copyright owners to help try and stop people using pirate software out of fear/guilt/morals/whatever.

Software piracy is copyright infringement, unauthorised and unlicensed use, and a whole bunch of other stuff depending on the intellectual property, terms of use, license restrictions and whatever else is valid.

However, it is not theft under any definition of the term, nor seen as such under most legal frameworks, as far as I understand...




It can be labelled however you want legally, as far as I'm concerned obtaining software without paying for it (software which is not freeware that is) is theft. This is my own opinion and not marketing speak. This does not mean I agree with how Waves are trying to enforce their "copyright" if the story mentioned before is true of course.


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #535509 - 18/10/07 03:33 PM
Quote Martin Walker:

Quote Mahoobley:

So are 'Banpiracy' (what kind of name is that anyway? Like piracy isn't already 'banned') going to go after people who crack any brand of audio software, or just Waves stuff?




They imply in that interview that they only pursue on behalf of specific clients, Waves being the first one on their books.

Martin




I wonder if this guy, who was previously a Director at Waves, stepped down (or across) to set up this company. My opinion is that it was set up purposely & primarily to protect Waves (and is a Waves initiative), but have left it open to all companies to avoid a direct grilling towards themselves should it backfire and alienate its user base.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I perceive it.

Cheers,
Peter

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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thedogboy
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: -=@(*_*)@=-]
      #535547 - 18/10/07 04:33 PM
Quote lg:

That's what I think:

If you are making any money out of your music, you SHOULD not be forgiven if you are caught using software.




Mwhahahahahaha!

-n.


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Dennis Spank
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Joined: 01/02/03
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #535589 - 18/10/07 06:02 PM
The guy on the left is clearly a pretty f*cked up and angry little man. They've set themselves up as some kind of gestapo kickback merchants. And this "company" is a wretched operation - leeching off others. Nasty nasty nasty....

The best thing people can do is to totally avoid Waves' products whether legal or illegal.

Clearly, there's more bad karma involved in having anything to do with Waves than there is in using cracked sofwtare.

There are far superior products out there.

These wretched little toads are nasty little (little being the operative word) leeches.

Remember - BOYCOTT WAVES!

--------------------
Ouch!

Edited by Dennis Spank (18/10/07 06:07 PM)


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Checkonetwo



Joined: 29/07/07
Posts: 53
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #535606 - 18/10/07 07:11 PM
Check these mens shady vibe, to me that instantly
says don't give them money. The dude on the left looks
like he is ready to punch someone, filled with anger, this
video is damning and shows the real deal.

There are maybe 2 plugins that waves make that are ok and both can be surpassed in quality, functionality and value(by a large margin) by some of the smaller developers.

I know who's plug ins I will be buying and they will not be
from this company.

On the other hand it's a double edged sword and I appreciate
that for those using legit plugs it is grossly unfair that someone profits from cracks. It's a weird one and hard to be
totally polarized.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: djangodeadman]
      #536065 - 19/10/07 10:27 PM
Quote djangodeadman:

Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.




I gave up lawyering a few months ago, but yes, it is indeed theft.

That is not to say that there are not commercial reasons for pursuing civil remedies instead. That's up to the injured party (and the competence/resources of the police, but I digress...).

If I were to start selling Waves bundles on eBay for £30 in large quantities, I would not be at all surprised to end up facing criminal charges. It's a question of degree, and how much you are personally profiting from your theft, which appears to determine what remedies get pursued.

The technical definition of the offence is unchanged from teh Theft Act 1968 (in the UK) and is basically about appropriating another person's property. You don't own Waves copyright if you choose to steal it rather than buy a licence. QED.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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leafy productions
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Joined: 21/12/00
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #536148 - 20/10/07 09:58 AM

totally agree !waves is old.........

Quote Steve Hill:

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!




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Johnny Wrong



Joined: 21/04/07
Posts: 59
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #536313 - 20/10/07 09:01 PM
This just seems like Waves wanting to take the heat off themselves by starting up a company under a different name to carry on their draconian tactics without damaging their public image.......

Guy on the left looks and acts like he is barely controlling his rage!
He looks like a psycho ex-mossad operative who is going to assassinate anyone using pirated Waves stuff!


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InactiveX



Joined: 22/07/05
Posts: 331
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #536622 - 21/10/07 11:01 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!




You could always grass yourself up.

report@banpiracy.com

If you were to do such a thing, be sure to have a CCTV so we can all have a giggle.


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Tommy Tucker



Joined: 27/06/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Johnny Wrong]
      #536680 - 22/10/07 08:45 AM
Quote Johnny Wrong:

This just seems like Waves wanting to take the heat off themselves by starting up a company under a different name to carry on their draconian tactics without damaging their public image.......




You think they haven't done this already? Between this and WUP, they are seriously putting off customers. Their image is so bad right now, they should spend a bit of shareholders' money and get Max Clifford in to sort things out


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Joe_caithness



Joined: 30/07/06
Posts: 262
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #536714 - 22/10/07 10:40 AM
so this is how they are gonna spend the leftover money form their ridiculously expensive computer programs...


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Humphreysbogort



Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 313
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #536913 - 22/10/07 08:13 PM
Piracy will always happen if it is possible.

As Chris Rock says "a man is as faithful as his options"

If you remove the option of piracy then people will have to buy. this is what companys like Waves should put their money into rather than resorting to bully boy tactics.

The only option I can see is not actually providing the source code to the consumer. If the internet was fast enough then programs could run on a remote secure server which is tied to a particular hardware configuration. Very hard to crack, as the code never actauly reaches the public domain. I'm convinced this is the way things will go as soon as internet speeds catch up. We are already seeing the beginnings of it with google's online office applications.


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Dennis Spank
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Humphreysbogort]
      #536966 - 22/10/07 10:46 PM
Quote narpin99:

Piracy will always happen if it is possible.

As Chris Rock says "a man is as faithful as his options"

If you remove the option of piracy then people will have to buy. this is what companys like Waves should put their money into rather than resorting to bully boy tactics.

The only option I can see is not actually providing the source code to the consumer. If the internet was fast enough then programs could run on a remote secure server which is tied to a particular hardware configuration. Very hard to crack, as the code never actauly reaches the public domain. I'm convinced this is the way things will go as soon as internet speeds catch up. We are already seeing the beginnings of it with google's online office applications.




Er, no, no and no.

By "source code" you mean binaries. What you mean is a thin client / application server model. Not practical in a time-critical application. One glitch and bye bye customer...



--------------------
Ouch!


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #536985 - 23/10/07 01:08 AM
So, who's down for the Mercury bundle? The TDM is only $12,500. $7,500 native. By the time you convert that to Pounds, they're practically giving it away!

:evil:


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Humphreysbogort



Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 313
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dennis Spank]
      #537087 - 23/10/07 11:53 AM
Quote:


Piracy will always happen if it is possible.

As Chris Rock says "a man is as faithful as his options"

If you remove the option of piracy then people will have to buy. this is what companys like Waves should put their money into rather than resorting to bully boy tactics.

The only option I can see is not actually providing the source code to the consumer. If the internet was fast enough then programs could run on a remote secure server which is tied to a particular hardware configuration. Very hard to crack, as the code never actauly reaches the public domain. I'm convinced this is the way things will go as soon as internet speeds catch up. We are already seeing the beginnings of it with google's online office applications.

Er, no, no and no.

By "source code" you mean binaries. What you mean is a thin client / application server model. Not practical in a time-critical application. One glitch and bye bye customer...






I'm not sure how you can claim to know what technology will develop in the future?

I'm not saying it is possible now, or even in the next five years, but if the internet became as fast as a conventional hard drive (how do you know it won't? think how far it has come in 15 years!) then i can't see why it is not an option


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Mark Knutson
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Joined: 25/03/03
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #537141 - 23/10/07 01:46 PM
I agree that such real-time access can't be ruled out for the future.

I think the short term will bring us a commoditization of plug-ins. Waves got in early with some strong products, but now there are many strong competitors, and a number of viable free products.

The algorithms for this kind of processing are not that hard to develop, and some people are making freeware plugs as a hobby. Also, the built-in plugs are getting better. So, my forecast is continued pressure on prices.

On another forum, I have seen some very established professionals report that the eq and compressor that comes with pro tools are very nice now. Its reverb is kind of mediocre, but that may be addressed in future releases as well. A few versions ago, their plugs were not very good and a third party offering was more compelling than it is today.


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #537167 - 23/10/07 03:19 PM
Quote Mark Knutson:

On another forum, I have seen some very established professionals report that the eq and compressor that comes with pro tools are very nice now. Its reverb is kind of mediocre, but that may be addressed in future releases as well. A few versions ago, their plugs were not very good and a third party offering was more compelling than it is today.




Logic 8's new compressor is a killer, the Channel EQ is good-to-very-good, and the Space Designer is about as good as software reverbs get... and the whole package is £319!

I live in a rural village at the extreme range of the local telephone exchange. Broadband access is at best passable, and sometimes pretty intermittent. My guess is we are decades away from me being able to use remotely hosted software. It's not about a couple of boffins coming up with something clever in a garage - it's about ripping out the entire UK telecoms network and replacing it with something better.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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leafy productions
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Joined: 21/12/00
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #537209 - 23/10/07 05:43 PM
My guess is hat the software market for eq and fx will become saturated - totally , the only way forward will become better abd better sounding stuff and for the price take Uad card ?and plugs ? why would anyone pay $$$$$$ for waves when uad stuff is simply way better soundwise.Waves i am afraid are on the way down.

I personally now use Uad card and the Oxford native plugins and the rest are freeware weird stuff.There is simply no fx i any longer need.The uad cards blow away an hardware i owned so what is left for waves or others to sell me?

Running software on a daw via web / servers? my god ........i can see it happening but i persoanlly dont know one professional studio daw on the web !!!!!!! and i know abouyt 30 studio owners who all wine about dongle authentication which they have to do via office pcs and transfer over.......sensible people dony have their studio system online , a daw is for making music and so the oidea of running software ona system which each time needs server authetication is going to be like asking the user to phone the company everytime they wish to use th plugins ! its all so tedious......all about ££$£$ and whats going to happen is that these software developers will eventually saturate the market.......i know so many software users who noe Dont update....no longer buy new software etc.......they all say the same thing.......i have enough and all i need........


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nukegroup
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Joined: 13/03/02
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Loc: in the sweet spot.
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #537774 - 24/10/07 06:22 PM
I downloaded Waves plugins with absolutely no intention of buying the full versions, as I simply can't afford them!

I wanted to see just how much better the 'best' plugins were than my bargain basement and (mainly) free ones. My conclusion was that they're not that much better: even if I had thousands to invest in processing, I'd spend it on hardware, which I'd feel much more excited about forking out thousands for.

It's the same reason that I use Cubase (legitimately!) and not Nuendo: there really doesn't seem to be a justification for splashing so much on something that's only a little better. I'd get Sonar or a cheaper one if I wasn't a Cubase user from Atari days who can't handle other programs interfaces!

It also seems to be the reason so many people are moving to Reaper et al. I was interested to see that Logic is now a lot cheaper: obviously Apple have hardware-based reasons for that change, but it seems to me that if firms priced their software cheaper, they'd have more legitimate users and wouldn't lose the cash.

Most crack-users (software crack-users ) must feel the guilt and instability-fear of using them and would gladly 'go straight' if the products were in their financial reach. I doubt there are many studio owners who forgo paying for Waves bundles to buy Faberge eggs!

Think of how different the views of Waves expressed in this thread would be if it was about them slashing their prices, not initiating a scary secret-police-style fear campaign.


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an englishman in
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Joined: 14/11/07
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #545352 - 14/11/07 10:41 AM
i m one of those caught in the banpiracy initiative; we use all legal steinberg software, uad plugs and wanted to see how waves worked; tried to get a demo from our supplier; no chance; a friend offered us the plugs to try which we did on several personal, test projects; thought they were good but too expensive for us; and forget to erase them; now we were either denounced, which seems unlikely, since we hardly publicised the fact; or it appears that whoever is behind the initiative claimed that we advertised wavelab on our website, which is true, and that wavelab was a waves product, which is not, to get a court order to examine our computer; we are now facing lengthy costly proceedings, and a heavy fine, for a company that made less than 2500 profit last year; i make no excuses; just another side to the story


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Dave B



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Posts: 5661
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #545356 - 14/11/07 11:02 AM
If that's true, then wasn't the court order obtained illegally? I'm sure that that was a dodgy thing to do and sounds like a case of knowlingly providing false information to the court. That sould get them a good fine / legal kick up the backside, no?

The moral of the story here is to get hold of legit demos - your post is just another reason why cracks should be avoided like the plague.

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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_Nuno_



Joined: 20/05/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: nukegroup]
      #545475 - 14/11/07 04:10 PM
Quote nukegroup:




Most crack-users (software crack-users ) must feel the guilt and instability-fear of using them and would gladly 'go straight' if the products were in their financial reach.




That is crap.

There are plenty of software apps cracked out there that cost 20 and 30 USD and even less. Most crack users won't pay for software because they can get it free, it's that simple. They don't value the work put into it by the programmers at all and they don't see it as anything wrong.


I'm honestly getting fed up with people blaming companies and pricing policies for piracy.


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Neil C
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #545487 - 14/11/07 04:49 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote djangodeadman:

Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.




I gave up lawyering a few months ago, but yes, it is indeed theft.





'A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it'
This is quoted on several sites explaining the law.

Surely in the case of pirated software - the owner of the copyright is not being deprived of the software - they still have their copy (and rights over the software)?
I'm not a lawyer - I think it's the bit I put in bold that causes the confusion on this technically theft/not theft thing- can anyone explain?

This is a bit of a point of pendantry in relation to the main issues here, but I'd like to know.


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_Nuno_



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Neil C]
      #545493 - 14/11/07 04:57 PM
Quote Neil C:

Quote Steve Hill:

Quote djangodeadman:

Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.




I gave up lawyering a few months ago, but yes, it is indeed theft.





'A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it'
This is quoted on several sites explaining the law.

Surely in the case of copied software - the owner of the copyright is not being deprived of the software - they still have their copy?
I'm not a lawyer - I think it's the bit in bold that causes the confusion on this technically theft/not theft thing- can anyone explain?

This is a bit of a point of pendantry in relation to the main issues here, but I'd like to know.




They are being deprived of the license agreement at least, and of all rights they have over the intellectual property.


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Neil C
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #545495 - 14/11/07 05:06 PM
But they do still have their rights over the software. Hence they can sue.
And how can you steal an agreement? You can contravene one, but steal it?


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an englishman in
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Joined: 14/11/07
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #545497 - 14/11/07 05:14 PM
thanks dave b; you are right on every count; piracy is wrong; but in my neck of the woods a demo was not available; we feel we have been wrongly targeted, so do we spend lots of money we haven't got on legal fees to fight it; i'm reading here and on other forums that studios are taking up the option of buying the software, paying reduced legal fees as a "penalty", and thus end of story; not sure i agree with the ethics


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_Nuno_



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Neil C]
      #545498 - 14/11/07 05:23 PM
Quote Neil C:

But they do still have their rights over the software. Hence they can sue.
And how can you steal an agreement? You can contravene one, but steal it?




Well, it's a matter of opinion I guess.

I definitely see it as stealing, simply because you are taking something that does not belong to you without paying the price requested by the owner of that property. Of course you have to be able to recognize and value the concept of intellectual property in order to view it that way.

I suppose by your definition since no one is stealing an actual physical copy from someone or somewhere, like the shelves of a store or a warehouse then it's not stealing. I don't agree, and I see little point in discussing it, since any of these discussions hardly ever leads anywhere.


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Dave B



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #545520 - 14/11/07 06:14 PM
Englishman, I suppose that it would be worth the cost of a single consultation to see if what you think is true is in fact the case. If it is, then it might be worth giving it a punt. After all, if you don't have £1000 for legal fees then you don't have £100,000 either!

Are you here or in the 'States? If it's this side of the pond then there are people who might be able to give a more expert opinion on this.

Also, if it's not too forward, I'd be fascinated to know how much they are chasing you for.

On a general note to all and sundry, if anyone can't get hold of demo versions, then a post round these parts may be a way forward. Although it doesn't look it sometimes, we generally do support each other on these forums and a quick download, cd burn and jiffy bag might not be too much of a drag for some bored muso!

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: _Nuno_]
      #545548 - 14/11/07 07:23 PM
They have at least been deprived of the price of one sale. I call that theft, like I call nicking a Mars bar from a sweet shop theft. Sure, Mars can make lots more, for a fraction of the retail price....

If it's not a crime (but only liable to a civil recovery action) then the law is an ass (which it may be) as it is then "legal" for us all to pirate everything, and probably give or sell copies to others, calculating that the worst case scenario is we might get caught and have to pay for it.

The UK (unlike the US) will not entertain the concept of punitive damages - and a good thing too - so the worst you would be faced with in a UK court is having to pay for the software you "accidentally borrowed", plus maybe some adverse legal fees.

It would not be in the interests of Waves to bring such an action... which may be why they have launched 40 suits in California against studios who refused to settle but (to date) none outside the USA... where penal damages are (bizarrely) the norm.

To be clear: that's the civil law position. I also robustly and firmly believe that in the UK at least copyright theft is - er - theft, and a criminal offence.

The fact that the Crown Prosectuion Service seems reluctant or incapable of doing anything about it is a different debate. But the risk of a criminal conviction at least keeps this particular studio honest.

I also remain firmly of the view that this unashamed witch hunt by Waves will earn them no friends and is in every conceivable sense the worst possible strategic move they could have made for their business. It all has an aura of tragic desperation about it. There are no good guys in the whole sorry saga, just an assorted bunch of greedy bad guys on all sides - including lawyers - trying to empty each others' pockets. It's pretty sickening really, on a par with some of the more ludicrous excesses of Monster cables' litigation mania (trying to sue Disney for Monsters Inc , closing down a Monster seafood restaurant in Louisiana) etc etc.

I'm afraid I can only view companies like this with utter contempt, larded with a bit of pity, and a 110% personal commitment never to put myself in the slightest danger of having to contribute to their earnings.

But the market, not I, will decide whether this strategy leads to bankruptcy.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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babeleGrande
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #545585 - 14/11/07 09:04 PM
Waves could learn a lot from Universal Audio. UA's model of continuously giving away discounts supported by a healthy stream of plugin releases is managing to maintain some excitement in the platform -- meaning good sales. And as someone above said, i'm sure if UA can deliver awesome plugins for 300€, so can Waves.

Waves are arrogant. If you remove the bundle's price tag you're left with what i'd call a good bundle of plugins, but not fifteen times better than the competition.


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_Nuno_



Joined: 20/05/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: babeleGrande]
      #545594 - 14/11/07 09:35 PM
Quote babeleGrande:

Waves could learn a lot from Universal Audio. UA's model of continuously giving away discounts supported by a healthy stream of plugin releases is managing to maintain some excitement in the platform -- meaning good sales. And as someone above said, i'm sure if UA can deliver awesome plugins for 300€, so can Waves.






Then again UAD doesn't have to worry about piracy, do they? All the people using their plugins do give money to the company, don't they?


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GLENN



Joined: 24/10/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #545768 - 15/11/07 10:23 AM
While reading this thread I thought I would do a google experiment.
Im not going to reveal exactly what I typed into google but Waves need to clearly wake up.
I can obtain pretty much any of their software freely just by asking google a few questions!
I dare say so could anyone else.

I also know of someone who has been making a living from selling pirate software for the last 4 years and is a major link in the chain.
I have spoken to various software companies and none of them offered any incentive for my information.
I basically offered them security and they didnt want to spend on it and continue to loose or not perhaps!

At the end of the day we live in a digital world and security seems to always be low on the agenda and is often an after thought after the problem has arisen.

Its funny that the adult websites I instal security scripts for and audit are seeming to be spending more on security than music software companies!


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an englishman in
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Joined: 14/11/07
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dave B]
      #545806 - 15/11/07 11:50 AM
hello dave b; we are in europe, but not england; i'm being a little cagey because having been caught out once by the big bad wolf, i'm sharing our experience without publicising too much who we are in case we decide to fight it down the line; basically we are being asked, or rather the courts are being asked to force us, to pay 100,000 euros in damages to Waves, plus legal costs, estimated by the plaintiff as being 10000 euros; obviously this is meant to impress us, (which at first did!) plus a visit from a bailiff with a policeman and computer whizz in tow is never a pleasant experience; all this for software that costs less than 2000 euros;


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an englishman in
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: _Nuno_]
      #545811 - 15/11/07 12:02 PM
i presume your comments are ironic; the difference between UAD and waves plugs is that you need to have the UAD card fitted in your machine; their plugs are not stand alone;


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: an englishman in paris]
      #545832 - 15/11/07 12:55 PM
They are asking for £70,000!?!

So much for their video where they say "we're not trying to punish studios, we are just trying to get them to go legit". The implication being that they are basically going after the retail sale of those plugins, plus costs, so if you are found to have illegal stuff, they expect to chrge you the full price of their plugins (which will probably be the big £7K bundle, even if you only "demoed" one plugin) plus some overhead.

Or is it the case where they've basically said to you, for £8k (or whatever) you get a legit licensed bundle and we'll go away, but if you refuse, *then* we'll go after full damages in court?


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an englishman in
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #545915 - 15/11/07 03:29 PM
well in fact its the other way round; unlike what i understood happened in the states, we had no initial contact with an offer to go "legit"; the first we knew was the bailiff, then the court order, with the 100000 euros plus costs demanded; it was only afterwards via my software retailer that we found out about this whole banpiracy business, and this forum; so i have no idea as yet what will happen if we try to "negotiate"; and just an aside; i have been told by a very reliable source, i have no idea whether it is true, that "moles" who denounced people were being given software as a "reward"; great world we live in


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: an englishman in paris]
      #545946 - 15/11/07 04:43 PM
Quote an englishman in paris:

well in fact its the other way round; unlike what i understood happened in the states, we had no initial contact with an offer to go "legit"; the first we knew was the bailiff, then the court order, with the 100000 euros plus costs demanded;




Sounds well dodgy to me - they can't get a court order against you without you being given a chance to defend yourself.

If you had no prior warning - ie: letters sent in advance, I would be tempted to reply that this is an illegal scam to extort money with menaces.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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an englishman in
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: John Willett]
      #545986 - 15/11/07 06:11 PM
well we do have a chance to defend ourselves; maybe my translation of legal procedures here is not good; we have been summoned to go to court where we can defend ourselves; and even if we are found "guilty" there is obviously a reasonable chance that any "damages" will be much less than that demanded by the plaintiff; but to do this we need a lawyer; and we could counterattack because as i said from the beginning the court order was based on a false declaration; but we are a tiny company; and in the end it would cost less if we went "legit" and try to negotiate; even though it is not the "courageous" thing to do


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Dennis Spank
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #546005 - 15/11/07 06:52 PM
Clearly the lesson to be learned from this is that it is extremely BAD KARMA to use Waves Products either bought or not.

BOYCOTT WAVES!

Even the free EQ supplied with Cubase is better than the Waves crap.

--------------------
Ouch!


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desmond



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dennis Spank]
      #546033 - 15/11/07 08:14 PM
This thread is not about the quality of their products, it is about their business practices.

Englishman, your experience is counter to everything official they have said regarding the BanPiracy organisation, so any credibility they might have had has gone out the window in my book. It indeed looks to me like simply an attempt to forcibly extract as much money as they can...


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #546034 - 15/11/07 08:22 PM
Yep... BOYCOTT WAVES!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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an englishman in
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Joined: 14/11/07
Posts: 12
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #546058 - 15/11/07 10:20 PM
Quote desmond:

This thread is not about the quality of their products, it is about their business practices.

I agree 100%


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #546062 - 15/11/07 10:35 PM
Quote desmond:

It indeed looks to me like simply an attempt to forcibly extract as much money as they can...




Confirming the suspicions I voiced when this first hit the fan about 6 weeks ago.

I can't believe no-one from Waves is reading this thread.

Why are they so scared to respond publicly and on the record?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Dennis Spank
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #546071 - 15/11/07 11:27 PM
Easy maths:

Income from "questionable" tactics: $800,000

Expenses (lawyers, costs, etc): -$300,000

Gross profit: $500,000

Loss of income due to bad PR and karma: -$500,000

Net profit: NIL



*moderator edited. to make a point*

--------------------
Ouch!

Edited by Max! (17/11/07 12:33 AM)


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an englishman in
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dennis Spank]
      #546198 - 16/11/07 12:12 PM
sorry dennis; I am contributing to this forum to try and get some sense out of the situation; I welcome all support and solidarity; but I disassociate myself with your comments here; I don't think that it helps anyone to start insulting people and using racist remarks


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Dennis Spank
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: an englishman in paris]
      #546215 - 16/11/07 12:46 PM
Quote an englishman in paris:

sorry dennis; I am contributing to this forum to try and get some sense out of the situation; I welcome all support and solidarity; but I disassociate myself with your comments here; I don't think that it helps anyone to start insulting people and using racist remarks




Er, I think this thread was started before your contribution so please don't feel the need to disassociate yourself!

...I'm not insulting anyone or being "racist", merely stating the facts:

1. Waves is an Israeli compmany.
2. Their present tactics are heavy-handed and illegal - therefore "neo-Nazi" is an appropriate adjective that I think adds some colourful irony, just as one may refer to American foreign policy as "fascist".

Anyway, I don't do "PC" in any way, shape or form.


--------------------
Ouch!


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an englishman in
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dennis Spank]
      #546223 - 16/11/07 01:05 PM
ok dennis; we can still be friends;


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Dennis Spank
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: an englishman in paris]
      #546225 - 16/11/07 01:10 PM
Quote an englishman in paris:

ok dennis; we can still be friends;






--------------------
Ouch!


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Hol



Joined: 05/02/06
Posts: 293
Loc: England
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dennis Spank]
      #546483 - 16/11/07 11:39 PM
Quote Dennis Spank:

Easy maths:

Income from "Questionable" tactics: $800,000






Given the events of WWII and before, that's beyond crass, bordering on what ought to be actionable.




** Mod edited to maintain coherence in quotation***

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

Edited by Max! (17/11/07 12:37 AM)


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Dennis Spank
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Hol]
      #546488 - 16/11/07 11:56 PM
Quote Hol:

Quote Dennis Spank:

Easy maths:

Income from "Questionable" tactics: $800,000






Given the events of WWII and before, that's beyond crass, bordering on what ought to be actionable.




Tough. I say what I like. "Action" me darling.





" Mod Edited to maintain coherence"




--------------------
Ouch!

Edited by Max! (17/11/07 12:36 AM)


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dennis Spank]
      #546490 - 17/11/07 12:10 AM
Quote Dennis Spank:

Tough. I say what I like. "Action" me darling.





Personally, I do not care for your comments or your attitude either. You can say what you like, but I do not have to like what you say.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dennis Spank]
      #546494 - 17/11/07 12:31 AM
Dennis. you are politely requested to cease and desist upsetting those who may find your choice of phrase somewhat offensive.

While Waves may be accused of taking the extreme view... it's not entirely undeserved in many cases, and frankly it's about time some of the software industry stood up for it's right to earn a living, and indeed to make a profit for their investors... they're after all, in business, like everyone else.... to make money, in return for their investment of capital and time.


although some of their representatives would certainly appear to have been somewhat underhanded, this does NOT make them Neo-Nazi's .

given the history , and sociopolitical origin, it's an epithet you ought to apologise for.,

BE advised, you signed up to abide by the rules, terms and conditions of this forum , or you would be unable to post, it would appear this has slipped your mind.

Perhaps you should read them/.



regards
Max
SOS forum moderator.

(I'm not unknown for being blunt either.... but there ARE limits, and the ideal of complete free speech is, in practice, an urban myth. )

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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an englishman in
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #546619 - 17/11/07 02:27 PM
would like to get back to the problem in hand; if there is anyone out there who is in the same position as us, would welcome any advice, comments on how you have gone about or are thinking about going about resolving the problem; comments from french studios or users particularly welcome; in french if you like


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: an englishman in paris]
      #546626 - 17/11/07 02:51 PM
Given that the summons was apparently issued on a fallacious basis, I'd fight tooth and nail.....

While I'm in favour of developers sticking up for their rights, in this instance, I'm not keen on their methods , and where people HAVE a defensible case to argue, i think they should do so... after all, one supposes that if you win, you may be able to persuade the court to award you costs against the plaintiff , and perhaps punitive damages for wasting court time and your time... ??


it's worth at least looking in to with a serious intent.

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #546627 - 17/11/07 02:52 PM
but i'd concede that it's a bit of a scary "If" ....

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Stuart Dawson



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #546710 - 17/11/07 09:23 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

......To be clear: that's the civil law position. I also robustly and firmly believe that in the UK at least copyright theft is - er - theft, and a criminal offence.

The fact that the Crown Prosectuion Service seems reluctant or incapable of doing anything about it is a different debate. But the risk of a criminal conviction at least keeps this particular studio honest.






Good points. It is a criminal offence, and to be honest does it really matter which offence it is. As a matter of interest, generally people processed for this sort of thing, (usually dealt with by Trading Standards, FACT etc working with the Police) are charged with offences against the Copright, Design and Patents Act rather than the Theft Act. There are issues with whether it fits the description of 'Property' under the Theft Act.

The Crown Prosecution Service have a reasonably good record in prosecuting these types of offences, although compared to other offences they are relatively few. (And no I don't work for them) They don't do more because it's not a core Police responsibility, it's quite labour intensive, (FACT are not hugely staffed) it's also seen as not particularly victim heavy compared to other crimes. Most of all I would suggest, that there are an awful lot of other crime problems that are higher up on the priority list.


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jacqueslacouth



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #546711 - 17/11/07 09:24 PM
Oh FFS, Seriously Max, cease and desist notices on net forums. i guess it reflects to what extent we have had our cheeks parted and been well and truly rogered in lala land.

As for Waves strategies, i for one have had my mind made up by their tactics to take my business elsewhere. I would much prefer to see them spend their money on developing a more practical copy protection system (you know, like putting it together with some dedicated hardware, its not that revolutionary an idea ) At the price they charge, they could easily throw in a top notch control surface to unlock their plugins that would give serious tactile enjoyment. I just find the "we've caught you so buy it" attitude to reek of a Dingo's butthole. I think it would leave such a foul taste in your mouth that you would be loathed to use them....

But good to see that the music industry is still so supportive of big business' rights to make their living by screwing the plods over.


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: jacqueslacouth]
      #546721 - 17/11/07 10:32 PM
This is a moderated privately owned forum. open to the public.. subject to the terms and conditions.

read them.


other than that, i agree.... waves could have better ideas and policies.... I no longer use them myself... haven;t done for quite some time.... for all sorts of reasons... none of them political....

But i would point out that even Waves, do NOT qualify as "Big business"

it's just that kind of utter lack of reality interface that people like to hide behind when trying piteously to self justify theft of intellectual property.

The VAST majority of Developers are small businesses, and on the global "corporate" scale, TINY....

even comparative heavy weights in our , actually rather small industry, are bought and sold for what amounts to pocket change in corporate terms these days....

Emagic sold to apple? for about £16.5 million pounds.... (I recall the figure of 33 million dollars being mentioned)
Steinberg to Yamaha? was even less. so I hear... .

For a company with their track record and position in the industry, that figure ought perhaps to give some idea of how little a "big businmess" in our audio world is worth compared to the 10's or even 100's of BILLIONS that global corporations in other fields are valued at....

Like Apple with Emagic, AVID swallowed up M-audio without noticing...(fiscally at any rate)


There are developers out there going bankrupt on a weekly basis....

just who is getting bent over and shafted then?


As I've said before, I deplore the tactic, and would urge anyone unfairly clobbered with it to fight back... BUT the principle??

all in favour here.... I'd like to see the guys I know in the Music software , and sample/instrument development industry, actually be able to pay their mortgages from their software based income streams...

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Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #546729 - 17/11/07 11:09 PM
I agree with you Max.

And it is precisely and comprehensively because we are talking about cottage industry with a very limited potential consumer base that I believe Waves' strategy here is so demonstrably, pathetically, terminally wrong.

Nobody with any sort of musical soul beating in his heart could in all conscience buy any of their products, surely?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Stuart Dawson



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #546786 - 18/11/07 09:40 AM
More depressing than anything is the thought that the £7500 asking price is more than the total cost of my setup. (Very humble home studio, based around a couple of Yammy digi portastudios)!!

Probably won't be buying it, more for cost reasons tho!!


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jacqueslacouth



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #546896 - 18/11/07 06:25 PM
Quote Max!:



But i would point out that even Waves, do NOT qualify as "Big business"






Actually I wasn't referring to Waves, I was actually making a point about "privately owned and moderated (censored) forums" and before I get the cottage cheese again, prior to the internet bubble shite, SOS would easily qualify as big business on the net.

But please, don't let anything I have to say worry you. I understand that the world's first true socio-anarchic state (the net) has well and truly been invaded and conquered by the captains of capitalism.

Anyone else remember Winston Smith listening to the Proletarian woman singing a song written by robots and thinking that it sounded more beautiful than anything a machine could make? How prophetic.

And on that note my friends I bid you all adieu, my heart is no longer in this. Today I lay down my last guitar and I shall sing no more, for the world is no longer mine to sing to. It is time to pull on a cardigan and go plant some tomatoes.

BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


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Phil O
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: jacqueslacouth]
      #546928 - 18/11/07 07:43 PM
Quote jacqueslacouth:

Quote Max!:



But i would point out that even Waves, do NOT qualify as "Big business"






Actually I wasn't referring to Waves, I was actually making a point about "privately owned and moderated (censored) forums" and before I get the cottage cheese again, prior to the internet bubble shite, SOS would easily qualify as big business on the net.

But please, don't let anything I have to say worry you. I understand that the world's first true socio-anarchic state (the net) has well and truly been invaded and conquered by the captains of capitalism.

Anyone else remember Winston Smith listening to the Proletarian woman singing a song written by robots and thinking that it sounded more beautiful than anything a machine could make? How prophetic.

And on that note my friends I bid you all adieu, my heart is no longer in this. Today I lay down my last guitar and I shall sing no more, for the world is no longer mine to sing to. It is time to pull on a cardigan and go plant some tomatoes.

BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE




Jacques gets my vote for "most grand forum exit" 2007!


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E D



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547006 - 19/11/07 01:01 AM
I hope people read it and actually learn something though. He speaks good sense.


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Ari



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547015 - 19/11/07 02:56 AM
Waves have lost sight of their market. They don't seem to realize that todays music recording market is very different to that which they originally entered.
No longer dominated by large studios, the industry has changed alot, giving homestudio owners the ability to run anything a large studio can.

Some software companies have realized this, others have not. Some will survive, others should not...

The R&D cost is a one off cost for each version, just like for hardware. Manufacturing cost is negligable. This is unlike hardware units and should be reflected in the price of the products. Consumers know that and get annoyed if they feel they are being ripped off.

The key to getting people to pay for your product is having a quality product, good customer service and a decent upgrade policy. This is why Ableton and the Propellerheads seem to be doing ok. Their offers are always fair, and their copy protection mechanisms are lax enough that pirating their software is not very hard. A side effect is that after computer problems and re-installing (whether you have a legit version or not) all your stuff will work again. I had copied versions of their software. I now have legal versions. It's simple. They don't try to rip me off. I don't wan't to rip them off.

Enter Digidesign. Had it legal. Had to reinstall. Took a week to get everything running... I actually ended up using a cracked version because i had such problems with my legitimate version that I just said f*** that. How messed up is that? Having a proper serial nr. on my box and not using it because it was a hassle...
Then they made version 7. I hoped they would give decent ugrade deals, but no, not really. I wound up in bed with Ableton, turned out to be the prettiest girl at THAT dance. Oh, and digi hardware/software only works on some computer setups. Read through the compatibility lists to get a better idea. You have to know exactly which motherboard/CPU/chipset combo you have...
That's probably why they are the "industry leader"

Waves have to realize they are working a new market, with new market laws. If they price themselves ridiculously they will end up with an unsellable product. Their products are good, but not $7000 good.
And piracy is not equal to lost sales, neither in software nor music in general. Just ask Metallica who made their fame by distributing tapes of themselves. Or ask Radiohead. Or Propellerhead software. A download may lead to sales later. It all equals publicity.

Piracy is not equal to theft, either. Not according to law and not according to logic. Unless a correlation can be proven that a downloaded copy equals a lost sale AND that the artist (or copyright holder inc. more likely) is financially damaged by the download, then it is not theft. Sure, I'm just an amateur and only feel flattered if people download my stuff but we all have to realise that the market has changed, and we need to embrace it or abandon it. Fighting the change is not likely to work.
No musician wants their software so laced with copy protection mechanisms that it is unusable. Or have have calllouses on their sphincter from said softwares upgrade and/or pricing plans.
And no music lover wants their music crippled by horrible DRM that makes it work in someplaces on some devices sometimes.

And I am not saying piracy is right, but it is ubiquitous and here to stay. Business models need to adapt to reality, in pricing, distribution and service.


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: jacqueslacouth]
      #547017 - 19/11/07 03:50 AM
Quote jacqueslacouth:

...But please, don't let anything I have to say worry you. I understand that the world's first true socio-anarchic state (the net) has well and truly been invaded and conquered by the captains of capitalism....




Looks to me like you throw a tantrum whenever you don't get your way, but you try and dress it up with some trite "political" mutterings (and a fair amount of passive-agressive for good measure). Not to worry--the historical inevitability of the people's revolution will soon re-educate the running-dog capitalist elements like SOS magazine.

Edited by Mark Knutson (19/11/07 03:56 AM)


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thenaturallevel



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547032 - 19/11/07 08:47 AM
Quote Ari:


Piracy is not equal to theft, either. Not according to law and not according to logic. Unless a correlation can be proven that a downloaded copy equals a lost sale AND that the artist (or copyright holder inc. more likely) is financially damaged by the download, then it is not theft.




Ok. If I decide to buy a legitimate copy of the whole Waves bundle at £7500 and my friend decides to download the same bundle, cracked, for free - how does that not equal a lost sale? Forget about R&D costs, or whatever, at the very simplest level it constitutes theft. It is the electronic equivalent of walking into a shop, grabbing the software (in a box) shoving it in your coat and walking out. Just because the mechanics are different it doesn't alter the end result. You have acquired the software for free. If you dislike the price go buy something else. As has been said there is plenty of choice out there for alot loss money and of equal quality.

Edited by thenaturallevel (19/11/07 08:47 AM)


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Ari



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547094 - 19/11/07 11:21 AM
No, it isn't.

It's more akin to walking into a shop with your star trek replicator in your pocket, and saying "replicate that".
Why?
The company MAY(or may not) have lost a sale.
They did not, however lose an expensive package. Not the manufacturer and not the retailer.
Remember, if your product is good and priced according to quality then people who get it are in your likely customer pool. If it's not priced to sell, then that person was not a likely customer.
No property has been removed from them. That is how theft works.
Get annoyed over semantics all you want, but there is a reason for the language haveing words like copyright infringement, plagiarism and theft. They all mean something different.
The definition of "theft" is : the action of stealing.
The definition of "stealing" is (actually long but I'll take nr.1): 1[trans] take (abother person's property) without permission or legal rights and without intending to return it.

The legal system has more detailed definitions.

Remember, the media companies would call it stealing if they thought they could get away with it. Instead they refer to copyright infringement and "piracy" (I thought that would contain more raping, killing and pilfering...) which they made up to make it seem like a really serious crime.
Don't get me wrong, though. Ripping someones life work without him/her getting anything for it is not cool. There has to be easy access to fairly priced legal versions. If you're good, people will like it and buy it. People in general are pretty honest (even surprisingly so).
Remember a large study done recently by the culture ministry of Canada? It showed that the biggest music downloaders were also the biggest music purchasers. You're looking at the group that loves the stuff. DVD sales have risen every year, how come? More software companies sell more products than ever before.
As for video downloads, the only casualty I've seen is video rentals, which would have crashed anyway due to legal digital distribution models, just a few years later than they did. And anyway, the illegal distribution has pushed the legal distribution forward, forcing companies to see that they need t provide easy access to quality material, for a reasonable price.

Which is why I buy my software online. Companies such as Ableton and Propellerheads (and no, I don't work there, I just like their business practices) sell their products for a resonable price and give me easy access. If I go down to the local music store I see a price that is almost double what I pay online. Not because they're crazy, but because my country has a bunch of fun import duties, taxes and VAT on top of that. Then the retailer adds their fair share and, voila, there you have a lost sale. Ableton hasn't, though.

Anyways, remember you can be like Prince and be the laughing stock of the internet (and the world) or you can be like Radiohead and be the cool guys on the block (don't even particularly like them, but boy are they cool and have big veggie cojones)


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thenaturallevel



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547104 - 19/11/07 11:55 AM
Quote Ari:


The definition of "theft" is : the action of stealing.
The definition of "stealing" is (actually long but I'll take nr.1): 1[trans] take (abother person's property) without permission or legal rights and without intending to return it.




You're taking Waves property without their permission i.e. their Intellectual Property. Therefore, you are stealing it , ergo by your definition
theft. You're justification that it costs more than I believe I should pay for it, therefore, I will use it for free doesn't wash. Just don't use it - use something else.

Quote Ari:


Remember, the media companies would call it stealing if they thought they could get away with it. Instead they refer to copyright infringement and "piracy" (I thought that would contain more raping, killing and pilfering...) which they made up to make it seem like a really serious crime.




I don't think it's appropriate make to comparisions with rape or murder. This has nothing to do with violent crime.

Quote Ari:


Don't get me wrong, though. Ripping someones life work without him/her getting anything for it is not cool. There has to be easy access to fairly priced legal versions. If you're good, people will like it and buy it. People in general are pretty honest (even surprisingly so).
Remember a large study done recently by the culture ministry of Canada? It showed that the biggest music downloaders were also the biggest music purchasers. You're looking at the group that loves the stuff. DVD sales have risen every year, how come? More software companies sell more products than ever before.




What you're saying is because Waves choose to price their product out of your reach that gives you the right to use a cracked version?
The simple choice is don't use their product. As I said before there are plenty of alternatives, just as good, costing much less.

Quote Ari:


Which is why I buy my software online. Companies such as Ableton and Propellerheads (and no, I don't work there, I just like their business practices) sell their products for a resonable price and give me easy access. If I go down to the local music store I see a price that is almost double what I pay online. Not because they're crazy, but because my country has a bunch of fun import duties, taxes and VAT on top of that. Then the retailer adds their fair share and, voila, there you have a lost sale. Ableton hasn't, though.




Therefore, you have answered my argument. Purchase software that is reasonabled priced and that you can afford.
Don't use software illegally because you can't afford it or disagree with the price.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547110 - 19/11/07 12:07 PM
I know some people disagree with me, but have you actually read the posts in this thread?

It is theft.

I spent 30 years dealing with white collar crimes for a living, the last 6 of them at a boutique London law firm.

You're the one playing with "semantics", not the rest of the world.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Neil C
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #547115 - 19/11/07 12:14 PM
Oh yes it is, oh no it isn't...
It's behind you!


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_Nuno_



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547121 - 19/11/07 12:21 PM
Quote Ari:

No, it isn't.

It's more akin to walking into a shop with your star trek replicator in your pocket, and saying "replicate that".
Why?
The company MAY(or may not) have lost a sale.
They did not, however lose an expensive package. Not the manufacturer and not the retailer.




As i said before, it can only be considered theft by someone who actually understands the concept of intellectual property. You only seem to understand that of physical property.

The argument of not losing a sale so it makes it ok is completely retarded. Try stealing anything from a shop and try to tell the police that you never intended to buy it anyway so therefore the shop would never make any money out of it. And don't tell me that in that case the shop actually lost an item and the software developer didn't. The shop lost the cost of the item and their profit, like the seller of the software loses their profit also.


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Neil C
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547144 - 19/11/07 01:17 PM
Nuno-
I believe Ari in your quote of him is entirely accurate. I think you have not fully grasped him.
I think, though, it's important to point out that I don't think anybody in this thread, including Ari, has said that illegal copying is OK.


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547154 - 19/11/07 01:37 PM
I do understand IP (reasonable well, thank you very much) and do not think copyright infringements are right. I do think that they are inevitable because of market and distribution network changes.

OTOH, you are completely missing the point of market share and market penetration. And sales resulting of experience with the product or exposure to the product.

Think for a moment why companies like Adobe or Microsoft have not taken a hardline stance against piracy.
Everyone and their grandmother has Photoshop. Not all legal, for sure. Yet Adobe continues to make decent money from their products.

Passing something off as your own creation is Intellectual property theft (stealing even defines that).
Illegal copying or distribution is a different crime altogether, works differently, has different penalties and different consequences.

Notice that NOWHERE have I said anything like "victimless crime" and all that bull****. All I'm saying is that companies have to look to the market and play to the market. If your old business model starts breaking down then change it!
And never, ever try to force your customers into anything. If you are going to sue groups of potential customers, be damn sure that you do EVERYTHING right. As a company catering to a specialized market your every move will come under scrutiny. It's not enough to have the legal highground, you also have to have the moral highground EVERY STEP OF THE WAY!
If your company has been behaving like a small crime syndicate, you lose favor. If you lose favor you lose customers. It isn't rocket science.

Now let's look at the company in question.
They spent a lot of work on making a good product. Fairly probably similar amounts of work to most of the other companies in the same business. They priced their product as high as they could, as is expected. The market changed, not only with online copying but also in that the pool of customers got MUCH bigger but each has less money to spend.
They keep spending some money on maintaining a good product.
Now they face a choice. Continue selling to hundreds, even thousands of customers and maintain profits by jacking up the price, while trying to cut off easy access to their product by any means neccessary. Or LOWER the price and try to sell to hundreds of thousands of customers.
They seem to have made their choice.
Even Digidesign has made the other choice, although a bit belatedly, probably after seeing startups take a significant part of their market (well, actually, a NEW market)

Again, illegal copying is illegal. For a reason. People try to make a living making that stuff.
Buy stuff, don't pirate it.
And if you pirate it and continue using it, BUY the product.
Companies, please give us demos of your product that actually work, and are not so hamstrung by demo limitations that we cannot learn the program. Many download to see if the product is good. Some use the illegal version indefinitely. Others buy the proper version.

That's how you stamp out piracy. Not by locking your stuff up so badly that it becomes unusable and then suing anyone who violates that.

This is about the law, morals, business models and progress.
Technological progress has been fast (global networks, next day freight, telephone in my pocket etc.)
Public morals evolve pretty fast (with technological changes).
Business models have to adapt to the above.
The law will follow eventually.

That's how it was, and how it will be.
Artists decried the invention of the gramophone record, now ANYONE could just take the music all around and they themselves would become redundant. Many took advantage of the situation.
Then a new business model was invented.

VHS was thought (by the MPAA, Jack Valenti) to be the bane of the movie industry.
Then they made a new business model, selling prerecorded tapes. Profits soared. They still whined about the potential for copying.
Cassette tapes were thought to be another bane of music, easily copied and considered high quality reproductions.

..
..
..
Do you see where this is going?



As for the raping and pilfering, I was merely pointing out that this is a psychological trick using a word known for its connotations with violence, and making up a new meaning for it.
Piracy (as pertaining to copyright infringement) is a word coined by the american MPAA for use in their campaigns. Therefore I feel quite ok with using that example. That's the mental link they (not some unknown "they" but just corporate entities such as MPAA, RIAA and BPI) are trying to insinuate. It's called word association and is quite popular in advertising.
And for they record, I have no waves products at all. Partly because they are expensive, partly because they are too expensive for what they are but mostly because I try to give my money to companies that operate in a respectable manner and have some idea about who their customers are.


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Neil C
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547164 - 19/11/07 01:56 PM
Ari, I salute you.


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Ari



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547173 - 19/11/07 02:15 PM
And to clarify further. The definition game is VERY important as that is the basis of all our western laws and our written moral codes.

Re-attributing words like "piracy" only goes to show how big corporations are desperate to protect their set ways. It's hard to change the thinking of a multi billion dollar corp. and turning round takes time.
The law is also not working correctly in this matter. It's not protecting the large companies well, and it's most definitely not helping smaller companies or individuals holding IP.

The law question ultimately boils down to: is the law supposed to be for the good of the community or is it supposed to protect an outdated business model?
Of course it always turns into the need for balance, but it is neccessary for the law to change with the times, and be balanced. Not all out pro-consumer and not all out pro-corp. And it needs to have a way for the little guys (us) to make a living as well. Currently, if my songs get played on the radio, I don't get a penny. Why, you ask.
Because my countries royalty collection thingy is run by a group of old timers who don't include playlists from the rock/alternative stations. They have been offered the lists, but no, it's too complicated.
I would love to get royalty checks once in a while but I don't. And can't do anything about it (we've tried) except founding a competing royalty collection company. Which would turn out just as rotten pretty fast. That's where I stand. I know a bit about both sides f the table, yet I position myself firmly in the "the fixes need to run deeper than that" camp.

Nobody here is saying piracy is the right way to go, but I think most of us see the problems at hand. And that the solution is complicated and must start from the companies selling their products and services, including music and software.

Now, back to the Waves issue.
No matter whether their product is worth the price or not, their stance on the matter is counter-productive for them, and will be even worse in the long term. From what I hear, their stuff is pretty decent, but there are quite a few pretty decent products out there.
I'm definitely not saying that you should go out and steal all copies of their products from the shelves or that you should copy them illegally. I'm saying that they may have missed the boat, and are now trying to get back on board by drilling through the hull. Under the waterline.


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #547178 - 19/11/07 02:17 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

I know some people disagree with me, but have you actually read the posts in this thread?

It is theft.

I spent 30 years dealing with white collar crimes for a living, the last 6 of them at a boutique London law firm.

You're the one playing with "semantics", not the rest of the world.




There is no doubt that it meets statutory requirements for various crimes, but my own observation is that the vast majority of people I have encountered do not consider it morally on the same plane as taking something material from somebody. And judging by the admittedly dodgey statistics from the software industry, these are widely held views indeed.

People who pride themeselves on moral rectitude in matters of honesty, and would drive 10 miles to return a dollar they were accidentally overpaid by a cashier, pirate software without a second thought.

I think our cultural morality is simply not geared toward statutorily created intellectual property, and if one thinks about it, that's an interesting sociological phenomenen. Call it semantics if you like, but its a reality that cannot be changed with a few cleverly chosen words or a few new laws.

I think most people consider theft to be when something that a person had is missing, and that something has to be more material and concrete than the speculative notion of potential lost profits.

Edited by Mark Knutson (19/11/07 02:22 PM)


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547179 - 19/11/07 02:18 PM
Yes, I am overly verbose and opinionated, aren't I....
Maybe even dead wrong on some aspects, but such is life.
Anyone with a good feel for the subject matter (or just a strong opinion) SPEAK UP (even Nuno. Please read ALL the words, I haven't said anything about Waves being to expensive FOR me, at most I said it might be too expensive TO me, meaning that I could buy it if I wanted it, but don't want it because I might not find it worth the asking price, and before you try it, no, that doesn't mean I am telling you to copy it)

Edited by Ari (19/11/07 02:24 PM)


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9376
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #547181 - 19/11/07 02:22 PM
Quote Mark Knutson:

but my own observation is that the vast majority of people I have encountered do not consider it morally on the same plane as taking something material from somebody.

.




generally because they're not the ones having it taken !

ALL the Software and sample library developers I know , feel very much that it's theft, and that it's on the same plane... worse in some cases... after all, most retail outlets have insurance against theft.

you try getting insured against IP piracy.

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547191 - 19/11/07 02:46 PM
Quote Ari:

Yes, I am overly verbose and opinionated, aren't I....
Maybe even dead wrong on some aspects, but such is life.
Anyone with a good feel for the subject matter (or just a strong opinion) SPEAK UP (even Nuno. Please read ALL the words, I haven't said anything about Waves being to expensive FOR me, at most I said it might be too expensive TO me, meaning that I could buy it if I wanted it, but don't want it because I might not find it worth the asking price, and before you try it, no, that doesn't mean I am telling you to copy it)




I totally agree and this is my point. It's not worth the price. Therefore, rather than illegally copy it just don't buy it. Give your money to someone else - there is plenty of choice out there.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #547194 - 19/11/07 02:49 PM
Quote Max!:

ALL the Software and sample library developers I know , feel very much that it's theft, and that it's on the same plane... worse in some cases...



Damned right! Maybe not 'theft' of something physical in my possession but every illegal copy made of my sound lib represents a loss of 50 bucks to me and without wishing to put too fine a point on it, that can make the difference between the mortgage getting paid or not (and/or having me marked down on some credit rating list as a mortgage defaulter). That's not to mention me going cap in hand to the bank manager and asking for an extension on my overdraft with all the costs that will entail.

And I am a small player - others have premises, staff, sales and support teams, specialist programmers, etc., to pay for.

And I have no truck with the argument "I wouldn't have bought it anyway" - so why 'steal' it you f'ckwit?

As for the turgid argument "I never used it anyway" - if you get your collar felt for nicking a bag of apples from Sainsburys, stating as your defense that you didn't eat them is unlikely to garner any sympathy from the jury of your peers!!

That said, I am not sure that Waves' somewhat underhand 'entrapment' strategies are a good business model either ... but I can (sort of) understand why they have - out of desperation perhaps - resorted to them. It is VERY frustrating to know that others are benefitting commercially from using your products when you have received no remuneration whatsoever.

And BTW, the argument to make your products cheap/affordable is the way to generate sales is a misnomer - people will STILL use cracked, illegal, free versions. Fact!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2505
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547198 - 19/11/07 02:58 PM
But if we ALL copy plugins and samples illegally, then all the plugin companies like Waves will go out of business and there will no longer be any plugins or sample libraries.

No, sorry. I do not see a down-side.

And as for the idea that it is stealing, what about my industry? These bastards have stolen my industry and destroyed thousands of jobs around the World with their cheap tatt.

Now they know how it feels!

To Hell with them. Carry on!


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547213 - 19/11/07 03:37 PM
Hehe, good one.

But not as silly as it sounds. Waves took advantage of the rise of the computer studio. Now when another change looms, they don't seem ready to dominate there as well. IMO they could have, had they played the selling game well.

As I've said above, even Digidesign are trying to keep up, shifting parts of their focus to quality stuff for small time producers, aquiring other companies in the process. They are willing to change, and may survive because of that.

The old studios COULDN'T change, not through lack of effort. They just had too large overheads and too expensive equipment. Much of which can now be (almost) emulated on much cheaper hardware. Even with hindsight I don't see how they could have adapted. Sadly, the biggest loss from this all was that a lot of skilled people left the industry, leaving us with a bunch of home producers (such as myself) that are really not as good at it.

At least they didn't try to sue artists for doing the recording and mixing in smaller/home studios (you know, stealing revenue from them.
Yes I know it's not comparable, but I liked the sentence anyway)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Ari]
      #547243 - 19/11/07 04:40 PM
You make good points. Personally I think the difficulties (and cost!) of bringing criminal prosecutions are prohibitive and we need a better model. I don't know what that model is. Fixed penalties like speeding tickets if you get caught, maybe - payable to some industry-wide compensation fund? How about making parents legally responsible for the honesty of their kids' iPod contents?!?! (That's quite an interesting one, since large numbers of parents would just tell their kids they could not have mp3 players in order to manage the risk, which would hurt the industry....)

I do know, as I have said several times in this thread, that Waves' approach is wrong on so many levels - not least for their own business - that I hardly know where to start.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #547264 - 19/11/07 05:30 PM
I can't see a solution to the issues of piracy happening anytime soon, but we will see a gradually decrease of our freedoms and increasingly strong protection technologies employed by companies to protect their IP.

The Hollywood studios certainly aren't about to lose the control over their business that happened with the record companies.

Gradually, all our internet connections will be monitored and shaped more heavily, our computers will start coming with strong hardware identification, more and more software will require continual communication with remote servers, so it will get harder to acquire, install and use intellectual property illegally.

That's not to say it will be impossible, there will always be ways around things and the crackers enjoy the challenge. The only way piracy will be significantly reduced is where the effort of obtaining, cracking, copying and using illegal materials significantly outweighs the utility of the materials being pirated. Also, if society has a cultural shift to change our attitudes towards IP infringement - many people simply don't see software as "valuable", since they've never had the experience of paing out £600 on a software package - software is something that simply "comes on their computer". "Doesn't every PC have Word..?" etc

And that's not happening any time soon.


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topten



Joined: 24/07/07
Posts: 403
Loc: Dublin
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547278 - 19/11/07 05:55 PM
The law is never enough. If it was we'd have no locks on our homes.
The onus is on us to protect our own stuff.
Did you leave your keys in the car again Mr. Waves?
The law route is blunt and expensive. I doubt it will ever pay off for Waves.

my crack solution : put the software in a box with a firewire or usb connection. Add a few dials, a few lights and Bobs your uncle. Crack that!


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547288 - 19/11/07 06:23 PM
Agree with the above few posts.

As for locks on our doors, they are really only for show, more akin to propellerheads anti copying security. A moderately skilled burgler (i.e. not a crack addicted psycho) can open pretty much any door lock in less than 2 minutes. I saw a video of an 11 yr old girl being tought to pick a supposedly safe lock, and then open it in less than 5 minutes. She actually opened it in less than 30 seconds.
We can put more secure locks on our doors, but that hinders us in our daily lives and may be a safety issue in case of an emergency.
Same as with software, too draconian safety measures and it becomes unusable anyway.

As for the box with dials, I've mentioned digidesign a few times now, let me mention their products, the now unsupported Mbox and Protools le (of which I was the proud owner not too long ago) was basically a dongle for protools. The only drivers for protools le were for digidesign hardware. It got cracked anyway.
Meaning that it only meant that legit protools owners cannot use their program for mixing on the go, as they have to connect a big, powerhungry dongle to make it work, while the users of cracked versions can use the program in a convenient manner.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #547293 - 19/11/07 06:37 PM
Desmond - that's fine as far as it goes but not workable at the coalface. I am sat at my studio's first reserve computer - a decent dual G5 about three years old - but if my main Intel MacPro dies in the middle of a client session I want to be able to swap in the G5 in the time it takes to unplug a firewire cable or two.

I do not want to have to spend two days plus arsing about with software authorisations, which is what I had to do to move stuff off this G5 to the MacPro when I bought it a few months ago. My clients will have long gone by then.

I don't know the answer to this one! (As things stand I could get a 75% solution up and running quickly, and work around what's missing. This percentage will increase in time as I now consciously avoid buying products which are hard to transfer in a hurry.)

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5661
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547296 - 19/11/07 06:45 PM
Dammit! If only someone would build a box that ran on firewire, could be plugged and swapped quickly, had no real copy protection, ran really high quality emulations of good hardware (say .. eq and compressors), could process dozens of tracks and cost less than five hundred quid .......

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547309 - 19/11/07 07:01 PM
Waves are just pissed that they clearly no longer rule the roost with regards to audio plugins. Just about every tool they sell has a better or equal cheaper and sometimes free equivalent.

This makes me think of the debacle with the RIAA in the states, chasing down every last music lover as though they were criminals. If the music industry had listened to the tech savvy artists they would have introduced an open subscription system for music (download as much as you like for $xx a month) and a digital music 'buying' market would be vibrant possibility.

In Waves case they are victims of their own popularity, frankly with their prices the only custom they could have seriously expected was from professionals and studios, which in reality was probably only ever 10% of the ..ahem... 'userbase'. Criminalising everyone who uses your product is not the way to win favor, and like someone else said will probably result in not only illegitimate users deleting the plugins but quite possibly driving bonafide purchasers away.

I remember seeing a full set of Waves plugins in a mastering house and I couldn't believe the way there were so many variations on the same plugins that the Waves products effectively drowned out the competition in the plugin directory. I find it hard to believe that it was accidental when there were Mono Q1 EQ, Stereo Q1 EQ, Mono Q2 EQ, Stereo Q2 EQ, Mono Q3... ad finitum. Waves are clearly the Tesco of plugin developers, I wouldn't be surprised if they employed Shin Bet to 'disappear' their illegal fanboys and probably the competition too.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #547311 - 19/11/07 07:09 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Desmond - that's fine as far as it goes but not workable at the coalface.




I'm not saying it will happen overnight - I'm saying that over time, computing will move in that direction. The internet will be wireless and all-pervasive, all appliances will have a direct net connection.

There's no reason that companies won't allow you to move authorisations between machines, in a similar way that companies do now (my Live authorisations are tied to two machines, for instance.)

If all machines are on the internet (which will become as standard to computers as a mouse is now, because much software simply won't work without a net connection) these things should be relatively automatic, and hopefully painless to legit users - and hopefully more painful to non-legit users.

No, we don't have the infrastructure for this yet, and the social environment is not there yet, but it's im my view where we are heading. Personally, I'm not keen on these concepts but I'm reasonably sure that that is where these things are headed - how long it takes, whether it's ten years, twenty or more, is anyone's guess...


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Nathan



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #547412 - 19/11/07 11:07 PM
(well that's buggered me. my DAW is NOT connected to the internet because i can't be bothered with the intrusive nature of virus protection software...)

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


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hifistud2



Joined: 12/02/06
Posts: 795
Loc: Near Sunderland, UK
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #547445 - 20/11/07 12:07 AM
Interesting, all of this - but here's a twist. I have legitimate versions of all the software I use - and there's no Waves stuff in there (primarily because I consider it to be far too expensive for what it is).

So, if I download so-called cracks of all the software I'm licensed to use, have any of the developers lost a sale? I think that's a no!

Likewise, if I download a crack of a Waves bundle, but don't install it, has Waves lost a sale? Again, I'd suggest not. In neither case has a company suffered a loss.

If, on the other hand, I was to walk into a shop and take another box in which resided a further copy of everything I have lready bought, and left without paying, then the shop suffers a loss - and that is, plainly, theft.

But software houses count downloads, not installations. Some software houses make if extremely difficult to try their wares before you buy - they, effectively, are contributing to the problem.

Ari, I think, has very likely got it right.

--------------------
[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: hifistud2]
      #547512 - 20/11/07 09:03 AM
Quote hifistud2:


So, if I download so-called cracks of all the software I'm licensed to use, have any of the developers lost a sale? I think that's a no!




However, if you download a cracked version of the upgrade, for which said software house charge £50, then they have lost a sale.

Quote hifistud2:


Likewise, if I download a crack of a Waves bundle, but don't install it, has Waves lost a sale? Again, I'd suggest not. In neither case has a company suffered a loss.




A bit of a grey area this one as far as I'm concerned.
The act of downloading could be construed as intent to use or distribute.

Quote hifistud2:


If, on the other hand, I was to walk into a shop and take another box in which resided a further copy of everything I have lready bought, and left without paying, then the shop suffers a loss - and that is, plainly, theft.




Of course.

Quote hifistud2:


But software houses count downloads, not installations. Some software houses make if extremely difficult to try their wares before you buy - they, effectively, are contributing to the problem.

Ari, I think, has very likely got it right.




I'm not so sure it is as clear cut as that. As I said above intent to use or distribute could be one interpretation. I agree about some companies making it difficult to try their wares - that does annoy me.


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an englishman in
...




Joined: 14/11/07
Posts: 12
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547799 - 20/11/07 10:04 PM
and (your, my) god said
do not steal; do not copy a disc, whether cassette or cd, buy it; but maybe less serious to copy a U2 disc, because they are already rich, than a cd by bill and the billettes, who are trying to earn a living with their music; except if you copy U2 you may be in trouble, whereas Bill and the Billettes have no way of stopping you, (unless they live next door)

I am a composer of music; (as well as being a potential criminal); sound on sound is about music no? if someone wants to steal my music, I can't do much about it, (unless they live next door); except if a big star steals one of my songs, in fact I would be pleased; I can write another one and maybe next time I'll get paid;

now if I know/suspect someone has used something that in fact belongs to me, I think I would say, look, that's mine, if you want to use it, give me something in return, or stop using it; if s/he doesn't then, if I am U2 I send in the heavies, or if I am Bill and the Billettes, I grumble down the pub.

now someone gives me a U2 disc to listen to; I do; and decide I don't like it; I should have bought it, I should have thrown it away, but I didn't; and the U2 heavies arrive; (sorry U2 to use you as an example, but everyone has heard of U2; it's a compliment not a criticism)

and (your, my) god said, he's a thief, chop his hand off.

It's late (where I am); I've had a glass or two of wine; hence this ramble; but Mr Waves, if you had said to me, look, this programme is mine, if you like it, buy it, if you don't, throw it away; and if you don't, I will send in my heavies; then I would know where I stand; if you chop off my hand, I can't work anymore

but you didn't give me the chance to answer;


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Arpangel
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Joined: 12/07/03
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547803 - 20/11/07 10:10 PM
In the streets around my "hood" if your not using a cracked DAW you're a sissy.

Tony.


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an englishman in
...




Joined: 14/11/07
Posts: 12
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #547806 - 20/11/07 10:14 PM
but's that's like saying whether you are an united or a city fan; (manchester, for you southern folk)


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: an englishman in paris]
      #547807 - 20/11/07 10:18 PM
No it's not, what's football got to do with anything about illegal software ??

Take care,

Tony.


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Nathan



Joined: 13/09/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #547818 - 20/11/07 11:07 PM
i feel i don't make ny headway with the youths i teach/help. it's fair game to them. you get funny looks if you suggest that they should buy software/music downloads.

even funnier looks if you ask them where they're taking their band/ DJ collective and how they were planning on making a living out of it.

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #547850 - 21/11/07 12:14 AM
Quote Max!:

Quote Mark Knutson:

but my own observation is that the vast majority of people I have encountered do not consider it morally on the same plane as taking something material from somebody.

.




generally because they're not the ones having it taken !

ALL the Software and sample library developers I know , feel very much that it's theft, and that it's on the same plane... worse in some cases... after all, most retail outlets have insurance against theft.

you try getting insured against IP piracy.




I am a software vendor. However, I do feel free to make observations about the general state of human affairs.

As far as insurance, I suggest that IP piracy can't be insured due to the speculative nature of proving losses. At the risk of making light of a grave situation, would a piracy insurance policy pay according to replacement cost? I don't know if they have "replacement cost" riders in insurance policies in the land of our former colonial oppressor.

I have to assume that my own software (DoubleDawg) is pirated. Since I sell it cheaply, I chose not to try and incorporate some copy protection scheme which would cause me all sorts of support headaches--as well as more effort to program it. Also, how much effort ought a pirate expend to crack a $10 program with a pretty decent freeware version? Anyway, I have no basis for speculating on lost sales due to piracy for my own stuff, and I doubt that many companies do.

I will repeat my assertion that waves is probably waning due to the commoditizing of the plug-in market, and strong competitors entering the market weekly it seems. They can go after the scofflaws, but I suspect that is no substitute for the commanding market leadership they previously enjoyed.

I could get angry about piracy, but I prefer to get angry at my government instead as they remove far more of my wealth through taxation than the wildest dreams of any software pirates.

And, I will say that due to software piracy, I chose to limit my time and money investment in my software company. I make my living as an employee where the bucks are good and reliable, though the aleatory nature of product sales possibly leading to untold wealth is notably absent.

PS: If anyone can point to a bible verse dealing with intellectual property, I will eagerly study it. Software piracy is the creature of statutorially created intellectual property. Said statutes are for the sole purpose of encouraging authors to create content, and they are very much creatures of the democratic process (were it not governed completely by special interest money). So, I still maintain that software and other intellectual property is not on the exact same plane as those things which one no longer possesses once they get stolen.

For instance, as I pointed out earlier, I purchased Waves Reniassance Pack some years ago. I can no longer use it because waves requires me to upgrade in order to get a serial number for my new PC--and they don't offer that particular bundle anymore. This is in no way equivalent to a piece of hardware that I can possess for my life and pass on to my heirs if its still worth anything.

I feel I should have recourse against Waves for the loss of the use of my R-pack, but I have none. That's because buying sofware licenses is not really ownership in the traditional sense. The traditional sense that governs most people's idea of right and wrong. Its simply a different animal.

This is just one reason why I don't think the issue is as un-nuanced as many would suggest.

Edited by Mark Knutson (21/11/07 12:34 AM)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #547898 - 21/11/07 08:19 AM
Quote Mark Knutson:

I feel I should have recourse against Waves for the loss of the use of my R-pack, but I have none. That's because buying sofware licenses is not really ownership in the traditional sense. The traditional sense that governs most people's idea of right and wrong. Its simply a different animal.




Now that is a valid point. I too have been left stranded by developers abandoning me (the Logic-for-PC saga comes to mind, but also Mackie's abrupt ditching of the d8b desk and all its users. And Roger Nicholls overnight 400% price hike for Elemental Audio packages).

It is a bit hard for developers to bang on about "theft" when they reserve to themselves the right to steal it back from you on a whim, and at no notice.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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sharpeye



Joined: 21/12/04
Posts: 154
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547935 - 21/11/07 10:16 AM
counterfeiting, copying, pirating - it has been going on for years and will never be eradicated.

pirated software is no different to copied music. Someone buys an album, tells his mates how good it is, and gives a couple of them a copy, who then give a few other people a copy, and so it goes. Eventually, some of the people with a copy will either buy the original to replace their copy (having heard something they may not otherwise have bought) or will buy the next release by the artist - thus increasing sales.

As i said, the same happens with software. I started out using only cracked software. As time has gone on, i have selected the tools i use the most and have bought legit copies of them, discarding the ones i either never used or didnt like.

The end result - i have bought software and contributed to the industry - where as if i had never had the chance to play around i might not have purchased anything.

Crime will never be eradicated, and while i am not saying i agree with it, there are different levels. And i personally don't think that by trying to prosecute and penalise every person who eithers downloads/copies music or software you will make any difference at all.

No software house makes no money, otherwise they wouldnt be in business.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth


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Setter
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: sharpeye]
      #547949 - 21/11/07 10:59 AM
Quote sharpeye:


No software house makes no money, otherwise they wouldnt be in business.




Nonsense on many levels -

I will agree that no current software house has gone bankrupt yet (by definition). Lots of software houses have made no money and are now out of business.

Lots of small companies make no money and keep going because of the enthusiasm of their owners. (Same goes for studios)

J


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sharpeye



Joined: 21/12/04
Posts: 154
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547974 - 21/11/07 11:36 AM
Fair comment.

I think all i meant was that if a software house creates a good product they will sell it - and so shouldnt go out of business. The number of people illegally downloading it shouldnt make a difference.

A good example is Propellerhead Reason - loads of people run cracks of it but also loads of people buy it. Like i said, i am not saying this is fair or right, but it inevitably happens and so companies should build this into their business models.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth


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Agamemnon
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #547980 - 21/11/07 11:45 AM
Does anyone know if CPU-based encryption will be a reality in the (near) future?
(Software suppliers would issue encrypted binaries using an encryption key unique to each CPU, the CPU would decrypt the code internally, making cracking much more difficult).


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jrwaltb



Joined: 14/05/06
Posts: 2
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548245 - 21/11/07 07:23 PM
Waves give people the chance to buy the software and remain a customer. I can't see what's wrong with this.... Waves are still some of the best plug-in in the industry...Who care's if this is just a sales technique.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: jrwaltb]
      #548285 - 21/11/07 09:16 PM
Suing a studio for £70,000 for a non-offence is "just a sales technique"?

"Best" means five times the price of a fully loaded UAD1 card which in terms of sonic quality and options is at least as good, and additionally takes the load off your CPU?

And how long have you been employed by Waves exactly?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (21/11/07 09:19 PM)


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #548314 - 21/11/07 10:17 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

And how long have you been employed by Waves exactly?




Oh come on. "Accusing" someone as being a company stooge because they don't express the "popular" opinion is a rather childish stab.

I also personally believe Waves have the right to legally pursue intellectual property theft, even if I question or don't like the way they've chosen to enforce it.


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ross johnson



Joined: 21/11/07
Posts: 1
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548319 - 21/11/07 10:36 PM
BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!


It’s been a year since BanPiracy, a company devoted to stopping piracy in the audio software industry, was formed. This is our report card to you, our cohorts in an industry that we love, but one that is also in serious trouble.

Has it been lonely walking the walk as one of the only groups willing to enforce copyright protection for our clients? Absolutely. Do we wish we had more support from audio software developers who are getting their software “cracked” and are afraid to stand up for their rights as businessmen? Most definitely. Are we going to stay the course in our battle with pirates who abuse international copyright protections? Bet on it!

This past year has been one of lessons learned. We learned to accept the harsh reality that the way our company was structured -- as a for-profit LLC which gets its operating income from the collection of fees from those who are unjustly enriching themselves by using unauthorized software – might be a tough sell to manufacturers accustomed to looking the other way when their copyrights were violated. We learned that those who’ve come to depend on “cracked” software see their illegal activity as an unalienable right to exploit the efforts of talented professionals who labored to author that software.

And we’ve learned that there are brave people that will not be cowed by the noise of the rabble who want to take what’s not legally theirs.

It is a tribute to our industry that it supports such ethical publications as Pro Sound News and its European counterpart, Pro Sound News Europe. Both publications in mid-November published extensively-researched stories about our enforcement efforts. The writers of these stories were not afraid to take their shots at what they perceived as our shortcomings, but they bent over backwards to get both sides of the story, and we at BanPiracy acknowledge their professionalism.

In a Pro Sound News story written by Christopher Walsh, Andrew Kirk of PACE Anti-Piracy Inc., the developer of the ILok and InterLok tools, noted the uneven history of audio software manufacturers fighting the pirates, and noted: “BanPiracy has a noble goal,” and added that the audio software markets “do need some enforcement – think about a society in where there was no enforcement of law.”

Another of our counterparts in the anti-piracy campaign is Ray Williams, director of the International Music Software Trade Association. We salute Mr. Williams for his efforts, which were heralded in the Pro Sound News story. “Our whole reason for being,” Mr. Williams told PSN, “is to try to have musicians respect the work of the companies who supply their software tools the same way they respect the makers of their hardware tools.”

We at BanPiracy also welcome the voluminous opinions on Internet message boards about out campaign. One of the most interesting challenges to what we’re doing was posted on Peter Kirn’s Create Digital Music website. In referring to the only client we’ve been able to sign for BanPiracy, Waves Audio, Mr. Kirn wrote, “Waves, I put the challenge to you: either demonstrate you have other developers onboard with you, or stop trying to convince people this is an effort on behalf of the industry.”

Mr. Kirn’s theory is that until Waves Audio, the initial client of BanPiracy, is joined by other software developers, any effort by Waves Audio to promote its involvement in BanPiracy is NOT a legitimate effort on behalf of the audio software industry.

A note to Mr. Kirn: The clients of BanPiracy are not asking your permission, or anyone else’s, to stand up to audio software copyright infringers. BanPiracy hopes that others will join Waves Audio in this fight, but the fight will go on as long as there is one man or woman willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Adrian Anders, who posted the following in a user forum on Mr. Kirn’s website on November 14, 2007.

“I think the studio owners were being very irresponsible to their paying customers,” Mr. Anders wrote in response to the many proponents of “cracked” software who frequent Mr. Kirn’s website. Mr. Anders then added:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”

Count on this, Mr. Anders: You’re not alone in this fight.

By Tomer Elbaz, BanPiracy COO and Michael T. David, BanPiracy CEO, Nov. 20,2007

--------------------
Ross Johnson
Sitrick and Co.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #548330 - 21/11/07 10:52 PM
Quote desmond:

Quote Steve Hill:

And how long have you been employed by Waves exactly?




Oh come on. "Accusing" someone as being a company stooge because they don't express the "popular" opinion is a rather childish stab.

I also personally believe Waves have the right to legally pursue intellectual property theft, even if I question or don't like the way they've chosen to enforce it.




Oh come on.

I'm as hostile to theft as you are or moreso. But I'm not going to sit back an have Waves' actions described as a bloody marketing tool without a response!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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electrotimba



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 1010
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: jrwaltb]
      #548331 - 21/11/07 10:53 PM
Quote jrwaltb:

Waves give people the chance to buy the software and remain a customer. I can't see what's wrong with this.... Waves are still some of the best plug-in in the industry...Who care's if this is just a sales technique.



Wow,wow, wow! Here goes Waves - 2 post and "Waves Halleluya""
Quiz time - is it the left or right guy from the video?
I tip on the right one the "gentelman", the "mad mossad cap" would definitely go for some more nasty stuff.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548332 - 21/11/07 10:54 PM
Welcome to the forum, and thank you for putting your head above the parapet.

Thank you also for confirming that your salary depends on a percentage of the sums you extract from - er - defaulters. So you're a traffic warden, basically, paid on the number of parking tickets you issue - right?

Thank you also for the admission that Waves is your sole client. I note you hope to attract others.

Has it occurred to you that by your actions you have deterred any rational competitor of Waves from getting into bed with them?

Can you demonstrate in any meaningful way that you are anything but the paid mouthpiece of Waves? If not, don't you think you ought to stop lying by describing yourselves as representatives of "the industry" when, manifestly, after 12 months nobody else in the industry has shown the slightest interest in joining you? It makes as much sense as me calling myself a spokesman for the industry.

As far as I am concerned your credibility is non-existent. But thank you for confirming what I already suspected (see my post of 16 October at the top of this thread).

This stuff may play well where you come from, but in most of the developed world it kills your customer base stone dead. Your call though... I don't decry your right to self-destruct in any way that takes your fancy.

Edited by Steve Hill (21/11/07 11:30 PM)


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Setter
member


Joined: 06/11/02
Posts: 580
Loc: Tesside UK
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548335 - 21/11/07 11:05 PM
Quote ross johnson:

BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!


Etc etc.etc




I'm not sure I believed the stories of the unpleasantness of which Banpiracy / Waves were accused till I read this. It does come across as a bit ..well deranged really.

J

PS I don't condone the use of cracked / stolen / borrowed software at all. Makes my presbyterian conscience overreact.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #548338 - 21/11/07 11:11 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

But I'm not going to sit back an have Waves' actions described as a bloody marketing tool without a response!




That one, you'll notice, I didn't contradict you on...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548350 - 21/11/07 11:40 PM
Sorry, I can't resist this last bit -

Quote ross johnson:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”




Since I'm giving away no secrets by stating that the established Waves' crack is to keep changing the date on your computer so the demo period does not expire (as reported in the Pro Sound News articles you quote with approval), are you actually confirming that Waves' demo software, as issued to potential willing customers, is a threat to their IT systems?

I think we have a right to know.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Ari



Joined: 01/05/05
Posts: 66
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548404 - 22/11/07 02:03 AM
WOW, I don't know where to start.... lies, damn lies and politics!

The ONLY honest thing I saw there was that cracked DAWs may contain nasty stuff, yep, most assuredly. Except, as noted, if using the waves "crack". It doesn't really count as a crack though.

And a "noble goal"?? are you kidding me (3rd party description, but you choose to include it). And go on to explain how Banpiracy is a for profit organization. Noble would be not for profit, manned by volunteers, not for-profit getting paid for nabbing people. That does not serve anyones interest except your own. Even the staunchest anti-piracy people on this board will have issues with that post.

Fairness has to work both ways. No company can treat its customers with contempt without reaping the same.
Treat your customers with respect and you will get the same back. Respect from customers(in regards to business) usually means paying for the product and good word of mouth.
If a company screws up and treats its customers poorly only for a short while, they will need a much longer time to rebuild trust. If they try nastiness on customers and potential customers (and their friends, and the friends of their friends) they will get BAD word of mouth, declining sales and eventually close down.
That is business, in its purest form.

Software is business, all lessons learned from hundreds of years of market economy apply there, even more so than in most other markets due to the intangible nature of the product.

Mr. Johnson, your new version of economy will not work. The discussion on this thread has been interesting and looked at various issues. If I understand correctly most here agree that using illegal copies of software is bad, users and companies need to treat each other fairly, there are many issues to consider in the distribution models used (not complete agreement as to what the exact issues are) and that hardline tactics against the little guys (users) is probably the only thing that will definitely not work.

I could be misunderstanding....


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Stevedog



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 3002
Loc: Mercia
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548423 - 22/11/07 04:33 AM
Quote:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”





You opened a whole can of worms there. There several pieces of software that the crackers have stripped out the coding that hogs the system resources and causes crashes. You might not like to hear that, but experience tells many peoples that is true. Ergo, you have the most common situation with several pieces of software, wherebye, people buy the legimate version and then use the crack , because it works better..

No names no pack drill, but i can think of one piece of music software that never seemd to work with another companies software on the same machine. Unless, you used the crack. Strange that eh? Now of course i am absolutely positive that that was one of those unfortunate coincidences. How the hell would you ever prove otherwise?

My point being that, before you come over as the righteous voice of indignation it might be worth checking out the motives and history of a few of your present and prospective clients before donning the masks and charging off into town to sort the baddies out.

This doesn't just apply to music software. There are a whole rake of programmes that will not work on the same machine should you install both. I think you will find that if they are either accidentally, or deliberately encoding programmes like this, knowingly, they are breaching just about every anti monopoly law on the statute books.

If the software companies insist that i am buying a license. I cannot by defintion steal their software as the only physical copy that has ownership attached to it is the MAster they hold in their own offices. If someone uses a crack of said software , by defintion again, they cannot be stealing it. They are using an unlicensed copy. The reason people get cheesed off with companies like Waves is because they demand they have it always..

If waves crashes your system and wrecks your work. Well that's tough they don't owe you a penny they told you they can't be held responsible. Whereas, if my car crashed, because of an inherent design fault, the company who made have to accept responsibility. I hope you understand this concept that humans, by and large, dont like it when they are,told. it is your repsonsibility to jump through hoops to use our product but if our product fucks you up well sorry, tough luck...

If you do not own the software and can never actually own it, then legally, anyone using a crack can only ever be guilty of using an unlicensed copy it CANNOT be theft by definition. To call it theft is to and lets not mince words here, lie

In summary . If a company dsiplays a blatant "Give us your moeny and then [ ****** ] you" attitude it is only human nature that many people will say .."No i will use your software unlicensed and [ ****** ] you"...

There's an old saying, two wrongs don't make a right. As i said earlier, maybe it would be wise to check just who you are acting as enforcers for. Some of your clients may well love nothing more than to, effectively, "pirate", (that is, hijack another persons property to for their own use which is what piracy actually is, depsite peoples attempts to rebrand it as something totally different), peoples computers for their own gain at the expense of the competition.

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548424 - 22/11/07 04:45 AM
Maybe this is understood, but waves is not treating its customers in contempt with the lawsuits and shakedowns. It is treating pirates with contempt.

Where waves treats its customers with contempt is with overpriced upgrade requirements and refusal to allow old products to be used without upgrade, and whatever else they have done to dick over those who forked over the bucks for their product.

Now, I have had temporary (like a week or so) problems with Native Instruments authentication scheme in Kontakt 3, but I am still able to use my old version of Kompakt and FM7 without paying a dime to upgrade. When I change hardware, I can go to their website or gadget, and get a new auth key.

So, waves got their last dollars from me some years ago, and I just bought Konkakt 2/3 because I felt they would stand behind their sale. Propellerhead is another good one.

Just because people like to hear me complain, I will also mention that I got stranded with a windows version of logic when they sold out to apple--but I was able to sell it and emagic assisted me in transferring the license to the new owner!


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5661
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548436 - 22/11/07 08:17 AM
Chaps,

A moment's googling show that 'ross' is actually from a 'Strategic Communications Firm' or PR company as is clarified later. (I like the use of the word 'Firm' - in the US this surely carries certain associations and it's not with reputable companies)

Therefore, he couldn't give a flying one as to what anyone here thinks. He has just come to spam the forum with a press release. Which is against forum policy IIRC. Mods - _please_ delete his post (or the wording - I don't care), if for no other reason than it reads like PR drivel!

Throughout this whole thread, and despite being completely anti-piracy, I have found it really hard to get behind Waves on this whole thing. And that has come as a real suprise to me as I usually have some sympathy for people trying to get what is rightfully theirs. But whatever shred of conceptual support I had has dwindled and now finally been blown away. We already have an example of them not playing by their own (very publicly stated) rules and if they have to spam fora just to try and bolster their position, then it is obvious that they aren't the kind of company / organisation that I can get behind. When you have to put spin on bad practice, then you don't deserve _anyone's_ support in my book.

And now I'm going to go away and try and work out just why this makes me so angry!



--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #548437 - 22/11/07 08:27 AM
Quote Mark Knutson:

Where waves treats its customers with contempt is with overpriced upgrade requirements and refusal to allow old products to be used without upgrade, and whatever else they have done to dick over those who forked over the bucks for their product.




Well that's part of the story too. This thread is getting like Groundhog Day in many respects but to reiterate: the Waves Mercury Bundle is £5,279 (pounds, not $), for the native version, and about 50% more for TDM.

Logic 8 - £319 - contains as many plug-ins and some of them will give Waves a run for their money straight out of the box.

The large studio market - the sort of people who would have paid Waves' prices without thinking about it - is essentially dead now. The rest of us are a damn site more price-sensitive. In simple economic terms I can't see Waves' business model lasting without a price reduction of 80% to 90% and a a concerted effort to reach out to the mass market of bedroom/project studios. [And meanwhile I repeat, it's wrong to steal it until they see sense!]

I spent most of my career as a bankruptcy partner in the world's largest accounting firm. I've got up close and personal experience of the sort of desperate actions companies take when the universe as they know it unexpectedly moves on. Litigating against your own actual or potential customer base is a classic symptom (you've reached the point where you realise you're never going to sell them anything else, so what the heck). Waves' current actions look professionally familiar to me.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Dave B]
      #548438 - 22/11/07 08:31 AM
Quote Dave B:

Mods - _please_ delete his post (or the wording - I don't care), if for no other reason than it reads like PR drivel!




Oh, I don't think so. It's the closest we've got to a real statement of Waves' views and intentions from someone in their employ.

If someone at board level at Waves wants to come along and repudiate any or all of the aforesaid drivel, we'll make them equally welcome.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Owen_Stark



Joined: 28/05/06
Posts: 9
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #548488 - 22/11/07 10:15 AM
Though I'm not a Waves user, I'd have thought that there are people who may have downloaded the crack and enjoyed the software so much that they might have eventually bought the software properly? People who may never have dreamed of buying it before! I'm talking here about private, non commercial use. If this were the case, there could be benefits to Waves?

I still think its inexcusable in the commercial environment though - using stolen property to make yourself money is ethically wrong.


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_Nuno_



Joined: 20/05/06
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #548503 - 22/11/07 10:39 AM
Quote Mark Knutson:

Maybe this is understood, but waves is not treating its customers in contempt with the lawsuits and shakedowns. It is treating pirates with contempt.





Good point.

I found it very strange that a few people on this thread consider crack users costumers....


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2505
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #548505 - 22/11/07 10:41 AM
Quote ross johnson:

BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!


It’s been a year since BanPiracy, a company devoted to stopping piracy in the audio software industry, was formed. This is our report card to you, our cohorts in an industry that we love, but one that is also in serious trouble.

Has it been lonely walking the walk as one of the only groups willing to enforce copyright protection for our clients? Absolutely. Do we wish we had more support from audio software developers who are getting their software “cracked” and are afraid to stand up for their rights as businessmen? Most definitely. Are we going to stay the course in our battle with pirates who abuse international copyright protections? Bet on it!

This past year has been one of lessons learned. We learned to accept the harsh reality that the way our company was structured -- as a for-profit LLC which gets its operating income from the collection of fees from those who are unjustly enriching themselves by using unauthorized software – might be a tough sell to manufacturers accustomed to looking the other way when their copyrights were violated. We learned that those who’ve come to depend on “cracked” software see their illegal activity as an unalienable right to exploit the efforts of talented professionals who labored to author that software.

And we’ve learned that there are brave people that will not be cowed by the noise of the rabble who want to take what’s not legally theirs.

It is a tribute to our industry that it supports such ethical publications as Pro Sound News and its European counterpart, Pro Sound News Europe. Both publications in mid-November published extensively-researched stories about our enforcement efforts. The writers of these stories were not afraid to take their shots at what they perceived as our shortcomings, but they bent over backwards to get both sides of the story, and we at BanPiracy acknowledge their professionalism.

In a Pro Sound News story written by Christopher Walsh, Andrew Kirk of PACE Anti-Piracy Inc., the developer of the ILok and InterLok tools, noted the uneven history of audio software manufacturers fighting the pirates, and noted: “BanPiracy has a noble goal,” and added that the audio software markets “do need some enforcement – think about a society in where there was no enforcement of law.”

Another of our counterparts in the anti-piracy campaign is Ray Williams, director of the International Music Software Trade Association. We salute Mr. Williams for his efforts, which were heralded in the Pro Sound News story. “Our whole reason for being,” Mr. Williams told PSN, “is to try to have musicians respect the work of the companies who supply their software tools the same way they respect the makers of their hardware tools.”

We at BanPiracy also welcome the voluminous opinions on Internet message boards about out campaign. One of the most interesting challenges to what we’re doing was posted on Peter Kirn’s Create Digital Music website. In referring to the only client we’ve been able to sign for BanPiracy, Waves Audio, Mr. Kirn wrote, “Waves, I put the challenge to you: either demonstrate you have other developers onboard with you, or stop trying to convince people this is an effort on behalf of the industry.”

Mr. Kirn’s theory is that until Waves Audio, the initial client of BanPiracy, is joined by other software developers, any effort by Waves Audio to promote its involvement in BanPiracy is NOT a legitimate effort on behalf of the audio software industry.

A note to Mr. Kirn: The clients of BanPiracy are not asking your permission, or anyone else’s, to stand up to audio software copyright infringers. BanPiracy hopes that others will join Waves Audio in this fight, but the fight will go on as long as there is one man or woman willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Adrian Anders, who posted the following in a user forum on Mr. Kirn’s website on November 14, 2007.

“I think the studio owners were being very irresponsible to their paying customers,” Mr. Anders wrote in response to the many proponents of “cracked” software who frequent Mr. Kirn’s website. Mr. Anders then added:

“Cracked software often causes severe problems in DAW environments and may even contain trojans, viruses, and/or worms that could compromise the data of their clients. Beyond the moral obligation to buy the software they use, [the studio owners] violated the trust of their customers by having potentially damaging software on their machines.”

Count on this, Mr. Anders: You’re not alone in this fight.

By Tomer Elbaz, BanPiracy COO and Michael T. David, BanPiracy CEO, Nov. 20,2007




That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.

The truth is that your one and only client Waves is coming in for FAR more attention on forums and similar for their dishonest business practises. For example here HERE

But I do not see you or your Wave paymasters raising their heads in those threads where clients complain about being cheated or about the abysmal quality of their products.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: _Nuno_]
      #548521 - 22/11/07 11:12 AM
Quote Nuno_:

Quote Mark Knutson:

Maybe this is understood, but waves is not treating its customers in contempt with the lawsuits and shakedowns. It is treating pirates with contempt.





Good point.

I found it very strange that a few people on this thread consider crack users costumers....




No, that's Waves' position, from the horse's mouth. There's even a section on the Banpiracy site enouraging you to put your hand up and go legit. See the "Go Legit" section here.

And they've said as much in e.g ProSound News articles.

If we are to believe what they say, they see the crack users as lost sheep who they are benignly helping to return to the fold and the path of righteousness.

While we're at it, I notice the Banpiracy site claims to be "contracted by many of the biggest names in the industry". It's a bit hard to square that with Mr Johnson's confirmation that they have - er - one client.

Quote The Red Bladder:

That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.




Red, he's a PR spokesman....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (22/11/07 11:15 AM)


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #548528 - 22/11/07 11:28 AM
Quote Steve Hill:


Quote The Red Bladder:

That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.




Red, he's a PR spokesman....






--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Tui
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Joined: 02/09/02
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548611 - 22/11/07 01:42 PM
Man... Waves first digs a big hole... And then jumps. As if they needed any more bad publicity. Their copy-protection schemes are quite possibly the most cumbersome in the industry, and many of their plugs are hopelessly overpriced. And now this.

I have a (legit, yes, thank you) copy of the Ren Maxx bundle, but I find I use it less and less... There is better stuff out there, some of it freeware. There is nothing special about Waves that would warrant the price tag.

To any Waves reps, know this: There is so much negative energy emanating from your company, and your latest initiative, that I wouldn't even consider buying from you again. Hounding some little project studio guy to make up for your doubtful standing in the industry and failed business model is not the way forward. You will fall flat on your face with this. You may not have noticed, but our industry requires a sense of trust, and a positive, creative atmosphere for it to function. If you start sending your secret software police around recording facilities, you soon will be as popular as bird flu.

It has been suggested before: Start treating your paying customers with respect, and offer quality products at a realistic price. Stop focussing on the losers who only use cracks, but invest in your legitimate user base instead.


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The Red Bladder



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548708 - 22/11/07 04:53 PM
I now know who these two gentlemen really are.

BanPiracy as an independent company or society (or whatever they claim to be) does not exist. The address given is the regional address for the rather 'unusual' company called Allied National. It is a company in Nebraska that earns its money with the rather unsavoury practise of frightening people into paying for goods and services that, very often, they have not received.

Allied National specialise in getting funds out of people by threat. Buying up debt and frightening people into paying is known in the business as Credit Wrenching.

Stated bluntly, Allied National is a dodgy debt collection agency that works on a percentage. Mr David is the manager and Mr Elbaz is one of his employees, who set up the Washington office this March.

Here is their website http://www.andc.com/rates.htm

The trouble with Allied National is that it is a bit of a smoke and mirrors operation. It is also sometimes known as B2B Credit Reporting ( http://www.b2bcreditreporting.com/ )

In and around New York, they are represented by Maidenbaum & Associates also specialises in 'collecting bad debt' as they put it. They are even listed on the website creditwrenchadds - you don't get more blatant than that!

I have also found out a great deal more about all those involved in this little scheme, but I cannot post it here just yet for legal reasons.


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Doublehelix



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548711 - 22/11/07 05:01 PM
I have to echo Steve's comments that Wave's actions seem like those emanating from a dying business. They are desperate, and are willing to try anything. Unfortunately, their approach just serves to alienate their customers and potential customers even more.

I give them a year to either go under or be bought out.

They could abandon their plugin bundle policies and just start selling some of their plugs as one-offs. Much lower costs for end users, and we don't end up with a bunch of plugs that we don't even use.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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sharpeye



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548717 - 22/11/07 05:17 PM
Whatever your opinion, i must say it is good fun watching waves sh*ft themselves!!



oh, and good detective work Red

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth

Edited by sharpeye (22/11/07 05:18 PM)


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Ari



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #548718 - 22/11/07 05:20 PM
Amen to that.

BTW there is a discussion on Slashdot.org right now regarding music piracy and DRM, echoing most sentiments expressed here in this discussion. (surprisingly bs free, for slashdot...)


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The Red Bladder



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: sharpeye]
      #548781 - 22/11/07 06:57 PM
Quote sharpeye:

oh, and good detective work Red




Thanks.

There's lots more to come. Watch this space!

At the moment I am waiting for conformation of a few things, in particular details of past actions by Maidenbaum.


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Paws
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549592 - 24/11/07 10:08 PM
Legally, piracy is not theft, it is breach of copyright law.

Fascism, however, is fascism, no matter how you bend it.

I personally think funding fascism is much, much worse than breaking copyright law.

(edit - sorry for digging this up, it was linked from another forum and I didn't check the dates)

--------------------
Signature (up to 200 characters). You may use UBBCode in your signature

Edited by Paws (24/11/07 10:11 PM)


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Tommy Tucker



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549594 - 24/11/07 10:35 PM
Re. the "BanPiracy Says Thanks to the Brave Ones on Its Anniversary!" statement detailed earlier in this thread... you know they're onto a loser when they try to turn this whole issue into an ethical "fight" - if they have a case, this should be a simple matter of legalities.

Waves can paint it any way they like, but to existing and potential customers it looks like they've "sent the boys round" in a desperate attempt to boost their bottom line. I'd sure think twice about blowing £5k on a major Waves bundle - they don't exactly project the image of a comfortably positioned business right now? They could do worse than take a lesson from Steve Massey - great plug-ins, great distribution model, dirt cheap and bucket loads of good customer vibes.

Waves have brought out some very cool plug-ins of late - what the hell are they playing at? Talk about p!ssing on your own doorstep..!?


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TTN



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Posts: 1087
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: ross johnson]
      #549603 - 24/11/07 11:33 PM
Quote ross johnson:

One of the most interesting challenges to what we’re doing was posted on Peter Kirn’s Create Digital Music website. In referring to the only client we’ve been able to sign for BanPiracy, Waves Audio, Mr. Kirn wrote, “Waves, I put the challenge to you: either demonstrate you have other developers onboard with you, or stop trying to convince people this is an effort on behalf of the industry.”

Mr. Kirn’s theory is that until Waves Audio, the initial client of BanPiracy, is joined by other software developers, any effort by Waves Audio to promote its involvement in BanPiracy is NOT a legitimate effort on behalf of the audio software industry.




I concur. And a fresh challenge: until BanPiracy can demonstrate that is has the backing of respected bodies in the music industry, which ultimately its client(s?) relies upon for its income, it is not a beneficial entity within the music industry, of which the audio software industry is a very small part.

Quote ross johnson:


“... [Waves] software often causes severe problems in DAW environments...”





I think this has been covered in other threads on the forum. Until Waves can solve the problems consumers have with maintaining and upgrading their plugins, studio owners will look for workable ways around. And ultimately look for other plugins.
If Waves continue to use covert methods to open their own potential customer base to litigation, it's logical that they will destroy a large part of this potential customer base also.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Paws]
      #549607 - 25/11/07 12:16 AM
Paws, where have you been for god knows how long... first post in 19 months... we've missed you!

Edited by Steve Hill (25/11/07 12:19 AM)


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E D



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: John Willett]
      #549615 - 25/11/07 02:49 AM
Quote John Willett:

Quote Steve Hill:


Quote The Red Bladder:

That is the most disingenuous collection of lies, half-truths and distortion I have read on a forum anywhere.




Red, he's a PR spokesman....









+1


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The Red Bladder



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549685 - 25/11/07 01:25 PM
Before you read this, I must point out that my wife and I have every ethnic background (black, jews, jocks and even Sicilian Mafia - how cool is that!) in our blood - so to speak. Well, everything except Asian.

I must also point out that I have lived in Israel and still have friends there. You will see why I mention this later.

Here's some background -

All these Israeli companies that produce software for virtual worlds, audio etc., came out of the big push in the military to create a massive technical foundation for things like virtual battlefields, remote guidance, flight simulation and so on. This happened back in the 80's and is a matter of record. I know this because I was partially involved from the broadcast side of things. The technology had to be cleared by the military in both Israel and the US. All today's blue-screen stuff stems from that era.

This software has managed to earn the state of Israel a very large amount of revenue, especially in the military applications side of things.

So far, so good. Nothing illegal or underhand about any of that and the companies involved have always been very open about the military origins of their work.

Just about every Israeli has links to the US. This is the same as the way just about every Scotsman has links to New Zealand and Canada. All the players in this game are born of those links.

All these software companies realise that the software game can only be played so long and no longer. It is a game with a finite end. The time will come (obviously) when no more software can be sold. That means investing the profits of today in the businesses of tomorrow.

If you have been wondering why so little that is new comes out of these houses, wonder no more. Firstly, there is only so much you can produce that is genuinely new. But secondly, the name of the game right now is milk the cow and keep the cheese.

In other words, profit taking.

In the UK, we have more accountants per head of population than anywhere else on Earth. In the US, they have a surfeit of lawyers. Not all these lawyers can earn money through 'normal' channels, giving advice, preparing litigation, drafting contracts and all the other games they play.

It is in the nature of the beast, that they gravitate towards debt collection. After all, that is a large part of what a lawyer does anyway - litigate for bad debt.

In most countries, there are ethical and financial codes that prevent lawyers from becoming pure debt collectors. In Germany for example, you must behave in an ethical manner and you cannot inflate your costs, as every step of every process is governed by a code known as BRAGO. I assume that it is much the same in the UK and elsewhere.

No such impediment seems to exist in most US states. Lawyers can become 'credit wrenchers' pure and simple and even advertise as such.

It is also in the nature of the beast for software companies to have to use the services of lawyers more than most companies, as they are battling over the fraught field of intellectual property.

Software companies like Waves, Antares and others (or rather their owners) are investing in debt collection companies (as well as a host of other things, ranging from real-estate to food manufacture and retailing).

There is one aspect of credit wrenching however that is far from ethical or even legal.

Profiling.

What the Hell, you may ask, is profiling?

It is to treat people differently, according to social, financial and ethnic group. A polite word for discrimination.

One also profiles debt. Credit card? Overdraft? Mortgage? Commercial? Personal? What type of debt is it exactly? Nothing seems unethical or illegal about any of that, surely!

Well, no, until you lump the two together. Some types of debt are easier to collect than others. Some types of debt can be more easily 'rolled over' into a new financial package than others. Some types of debt can be 'reconstructed' into more profitable new debt than others. The star of the debt profile is medical debt.

Poor people in the US seldom have medical cover.

Poor people in the US are more likely to be black or Hispanic.

Poor people are easier to collect debt from and easier to have them 'reconstruct' their debt. Certain ethnic groups are harder to deal with. WASPs are difficult, as they have usually access to lawyers. Jews are very difficult. They very often have lawyers in the family. If you are a debt collector, you stay away from Jewish people, as you stand a very good chance of a counter claim and a complaint to the state Bar association for unethical behavior.

All debt collectors profile both the debt and the debtor.

It is of course illegal to target black people with medical debts, but if you are to make a Buck in the highly competitive World of credit wrangling, well . . . which file do you deal with first, Leroy Jackson or Mannie Cohen?

Which of those two accounts would you buy for 50 Cents on the Dollar?

Which of those two accounts is least likely to counter-sue for negligence or harrasment? Who of those two gentlemen is least likely to read the small print on a refinancing agreement?

You buy the debt for 50%, you refinance and even get a 5% commission and with a bit of luck, you get to buy the thing back when the new debt becomes delinquent once again.

I looked at the list of targeted studios. I noticed a pattern. Have a look. See if you see what I see!

(The New York list is Output Recording Studio, Jambox, Innovative Music, Mambo Recording Studios, M&I Recording, Explode Records, Skyline Recording Studio, Sweet Sound Studios, Uptime, B Reel Recording Studio and the Cutting Room.)

When he is not fight for freedom and justice for Waves Inc., Mr Maidenbaum specialises in medical debt.


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E D



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #549718 - 25/11/07 02:53 PM
Fantastic. I found it difficult on some to see who ran the places but If the point you are making is true then that becomes the Icing on the already cardboard cake!

Can this Ban Piracy venture become any more scandalous!?









Talk about unethical practices why don't you!


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549765 - 25/11/07 05:49 PM
Racial profiling by banpiracy? As detestable as they are, I will require more foundation before I give creedence to that notion. And the comments about the dept collection attributes of each ethnic group strike me as a tastelessly close to racial profiling in and of itself.


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Mark Knutson]
      #549768 - 25/11/07 05:54 PM
Quote Mark Knutson:

Racial profiling by banpiracy? As detestable as they are, I will require more foundation before I give creedence to that notion. And the comments about the dept collection attributes of each ethnic group strike me as a tastelessly close to racial profiling in and of itself.





As much as I love ya Andy, I had the same initial reaction as Mark. Sometimes these things are just reality and the numbers speak for themselves, but it just strikes a nerve somewhere to see it written like that.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #549778 - 25/11/07 06:17 PM
There are huge amounts of money at stake and history has shown us that ethics generally take a back seat to greed.


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Asiotrot



Joined: 24/10/07
Posts: 31
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #549804 - 25/11/07 07:36 PM
Quote:

(The New York list is Output Recording Studio, Jambox, Innovative Music, Mambo Recording Studios, M&I Recording, Explode Records, Skyline Recording Studio, Sweet Sound Studios, Uptime, B Reel Recording Studio and the Cutting Room.)





Is This your source for this list? It's identical to the one you posted. I accuse you of nothing at all, nor am I trying to imply anything. I'm just curious. You could have the same source as this blogger, or actually be him, and there's nothing wrong with using the blog as a source anyway. Just curious.

In any case, I would have to see evidence of these studios being the incapable of even reading the small print of a legal notice (as your post implies Waves might believe) before I'd believe that Waves is targeting them as a soft touch. That'sthe only way your agrument could work, if they actually were a very easy target. I imagine it's more likely these people can afford a lawyer of two, whether individually or as a group. And there is The EFF who apparently help with these things. I don't think there is a parallel between a group of recording studios and uninformed, perhaps ill-educated poor people, and I don't really think Waves do either.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #549848 - 25/11/07 09:32 PM
Waves have issued no denials of the Future Music story. Ross's flowery press release praised ProSound News and makes no mention of other journals which have covered this story. I wonder why? (And PSN has, for the avoidance of doubt, been pretty balanced... just less than downright critical).

Like it or not, Waves' agents on both East and West coasts are, when all is said and done, a bunch of debt collectors paid on a no-win, no-fee basis. Some conclusions can be drawn from that. Some ethnicities might be under- or over-represented on their hit lists, to an extent which is not necessarily proportionate to the propensity of those groups to commit crimes.

I reckon Andy is to be praised for raising, at least for discussion purposes, and in a pretty sensitive way, a subject which might have something to do with Waves' actions.

And if Waves themselves find that an unacceptable notion, they only have to make a public statement backed up with some verifiable information. Court documents are a matter of public record, so who are they suing and in which courts, worldwide?

If they don't want to share that information with their actual and potential customer base, why not? Especially since their stated position seems to be supported by demonstrating to any enquiring public platform that they are getting tough with pirates and taking no prisoners.

And if they don't make such a statement, can they in such circumstances criticise people for drawing their own conclusions (rightly or wrongly) about what's going on?

No serious PR outfit (and I've personally worked with several including Lord Bell) would be playing it this badly... except with the objective of obfuscation. When your company is being roundly and noisily criticised all over the world, and literally hundreds of customers are publicly deserting you all over the internet, and influencing many thousands more, a bunker mentality of "no comment unless abolutely unavoidable" is frankly just stupid.

Every PR on the planet learned those lessons thirty years ago or more. Leave the bad gossip to fester and it will. If you've got a positive story, get it out. As loud as you can.

I am forced to the conclusion there is no positive story.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Mark Knutson
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #549854 - 25/11/07 09:43 PM
Quote Doublehelix:

Quote Mark Knutson:

Racial profiling by banpiracy? As detestable as they are, I will require more foundation before I give creedence to that notion. And the comments about the dept collection attributes of each ethnic group strike me as a tastelessly close to racial profiling in and of itself.





As much as I love ya Andy, I had the same initial reaction as Mark. Sometimes these things are just reality and the numbers speak for themselves, but it just strikes a nerve somewhere to see it written like that.




Perhaps I didn't make myself clear on that point, but until I see the numbers, I don't consider it a fact that we are too polite to speak aloud, I consider it speculation or a rumor.


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Nathan]
      #549887 - 25/11/07 10:35 PM
Quote Nathan:

i feel i don't make ny headway with the youths i teach/help. it's fair game to them. you get funny looks if you suggest that they should buy software/music downloads.

even funnier looks if you ask them where they're taking their band/ DJ collective and how they were planning on making a living out of it.




Oh well, I guess I've just done myself out of a few bob, by copying one of my own CD's.
This industry is going mad, it started to alienate people in the 70's with its draconian cassette levies etc, when will the big companies recognise that they cant have there cake and eat it too, owning hardware and software, and controlling how we, the public consume both, it's megalomania gone mad. And before everyone starts bleating about royalties and making money from music, well,those days are over, and its about time we all moved on.

Take care,

Tony.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #549893 - 25/11/07 10:42 PM
Quote arpangel:

And before everyone starts bleating about royalties and making money from music, well,those days are over, and its about time we all moved on.




Moved on to the dole queue?

It's not actually an unreasonable aspiration for a professional musician to expect to be paid for his efforts, after probably years of study and practice.

I'd be interested to know what your Plan B is... although it's probably a different topic!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #549913 - 25/11/07 11:26 PM
Quote Steve Hill:



Moved on to the dole queue?

It's not actually an unreasonable aspiration for a professional musician to expect to be paid for his efforts, after probably years of study and practice.

I'd be interested to know what your Plan B is... although it's probably a different topic!




Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?
Also, I never had a plan A let alone a plan B !

Take care Steve,

Tony.


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Colin J Morris



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #549915 - 25/11/07 11:29 PM
Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?
Also, I never had a plan A let alone a plan B !

Take care Steve,

Tony.




The future is selling out. Flog your wares to the big corporations so they can sell their evil goods in advertisements!

Hey, I've gotta make a living somehow...

--------------------
=http://www.colinjmorris.com


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electrotimba



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #549944 - 26/11/07 01:53 AM
Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: electrotimba]
      #549990 - 26/11/07 09:23 AM
Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.




Thats why I've actually started to make music that can be repeated ! live, a major sea change for me, and I guess that could be my plan B. The only trouble I have is that I'm not very attractive to the average punter, being fat and 50 doesn't go down too well on stage.

Take care,

Tony.


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Agamemnon
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #550002 - 26/11/07 09:59 AM
Fat and 50? Join the club, though I was still unattractive even when thin and 20. Seriously considering diet, makeover, gorilla suit etc.....


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #550038 - 26/11/07 11:25 AM

I am not (for very obvious reasons) accusing Allied National or Mr David or My Maidenbaum of anything.

For the record, I am not some prat blogger, but a studio owner with absolutely no interest in any of this, other than as an observer. We only use Radar and R2R for tracking, so I do not even use Waves as we are 100% hardware based and, apart from the fact that I have looked at it at the AES and didn't like the reverbs much, that's it.

I can sympathise with Mr David and Mr Maidenbaum. I too have (in my youth) worked for a debt collection agency and as a businessman, I have had my fair share of delinquent debts. There's nothing quite like being a small PA company and have an agency go bankrupt, owing you £27,000 when you have staff to pay that week.

Today, I help ex-servicemen deal with their debts and that can be very frustrating. One gets to the point where one looses all sympathy for debtors. Boxes of final demands lie unopened, under the bed. With the bailiff at the door, credit cards are being still loaded up. Faced with eviction, the wife goes out and buys a new piano on credit.

But these are people who have ridden, full-tilt, into their own demise. The reasons for their debt are nearly always of their own making.

Medical debt is different. In Europe, medical debt is a very rare animal. In the UK, medical bills are picked up by the tax-payer, in mainland Europe, so-called social insurance is compulsory.

I regard debt collection of medical debt an unethical practise and those that specialise in medical 'credit wrenching' as unethical people, because -

1. Insurance companies do not pay on the Dollar. They discount the invoice and some pay as little as 60 Cents on the Dollar. The 'wrencher' however, seeks to collect the full amount, plus interest and process fees and penalty charges. Had the patient been insured, the health provider would have received only some of that amount. It is often the case that a $10,000 invoice (for which the provider would have received $8,000 tops) turns into a $25,000 debt.

2. I am a firm believer in universal health care. A moral and just society is a society that provides this care. For anybody to profit from the state's moral dereliction is despicable, in my opinion.

It is for these reasons that I have taken the time out to look upon the moral justifications of the BanPiracy claims and the business backgrounds of Mr David and Mr Maidenbaum.

That list of New York studios puzzles me.

We are talking about the music business and we are talking about New York here. Now go and take a look at the websites of these studios.

Let me put it this way -

When I lived in Israel, I learnt two things on the very first day.

1. Everybody is a politician.

2. Everybody has a mad aunt in New York. (Even I had a mad aunt in New York. She sent me cake and socks. I asked her why and she said it was special cake. I asked her what was so special about the cake - she said it was kosher!)


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steveman



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #550051 - 26/11/07 11:40 AM
Not directly related to waves but this seems familiar...


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Asiotrot



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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #550056 - 26/11/07 11:48 AM
From This long news article, buried towards the end:

Quote:

In one case, a BSA raid on musical-instrument maker Ernie Ball Inc. cost the company $90,000 in a settlement. Soon after, Microsoft sent other businesses in his region a flyer offering discounts on software licenses, along with a reminder not to wind up like Ernie Ball.

Enraged, CEO Sterling Ball vowed never to use Microsoft software again, even if "we have to buy 10,000 abacuses." He shifted to open-source software, which lacks such legal entanglements because its underlying code is freely distributed.




And this from another article:

Quote:

The real motivation came when his company was busted in 2000 by the Business Software Alliance (BSA) for running pirated copies of software from Adobe Systems, Autodesk, FileMaker and Microsoft. After conducting an "unannounced software audit," the nonprofit trade group representing major software vendors, found that about 8 percent of the software used on Ernie Ball computers was illegally installed.





The article discusses the activities of the Business Software Alliance, who appear to have been on a Banpiracy trip since 1988. The anecdote took place in 2000. I wonder would Waves have been better off, as in kept a little more credibility by associating itself with someone like this, instead of creating their own front? The BSA appear to have the same despicable tactics as Waves, but with the added bonus of actually having some broad backing from the industry. Oh well, it's more than a little late now...

Edit: Link to the second article.

Edited by Asiotrot (26/11/07 11:54 AM)


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electrotimba



Joined: 03/09/04
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Arpangel]
      #550059 - 26/11/07 11:51 AM
Quote arpangel:

Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.




Thats why I've actually started to make music that can be repeated ! live, a major sea change for me, and I guess that could be my plan B. The only trouble I have is that I'm not very attractive to the average punter, being fat and 50 doesn't go down too well on stage.

Take care,

Tony.



Again it can be to your advantage, same way that 14 year old girls identify with their skeleton looking heros and heroins ( I wont use the word artist to describe someone like Rihanna). Of course if you are aiming at under 16 audience, you have a problem.


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Arpangel
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: electrotimba]
      #550516 - 27/11/07 10:56 AM
Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:

Quote electrotimba:

Quote arpangel:



Yes, I guess my view is a bit negative, but what is the future for musicians, in the traditional sense ? ?






That is the positive part - playing live, at the moment the only profitable option. The best part, no need of any waves for it.




Thats why I've actually started to make music that can be repeated ! live, a major sea change for me, and I guess that could be my plan B. The only trouble I have is that I'm not very attractive to the average punter, being fat and 50 doesn't go down too well on stage.

Take care,

Tony.




Of course if you are aiming at under 16 audience, you have a problem.




I'm aiming at any audience, no mater what their age, as a matter of fact, I mugged a baby in the street the other day and forced him to buy one of my CD's, I said if he didn't I would throw his toys out of his pram......

Tony.


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Tui
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #550938 - 28/11/07 08:10 AM
BTW, thanks to Andy for all the background information. In particular the stuff about the history of virtual reality software and the links to military applications is not something that gets talked about a great deal.

Furthermore, racial profiling is a reality, whether we like it or not. Debt collection agencies will target those debtors first that appear to be the easiest targets. There is nothing racist about acknowledging this fact.

Bottom line:

Waves = Capable products & atrocious management.


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Jez (mahoobley)
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #566487 - 12/01/08 02:07 PM
Don't know if anyone mentioned this previously in this thread, but I just noticed this:

http://www.imsta.org/imsta_notes.html

IMSTA sound like an organsiation I can respect. Non profit, non agressive. IMSTA represent over 80 different companies. Banpiracy appear still to exclusively represent Waves.

I must admit I'm surprised I had never heard of IMSTA before.

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk


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Steve Hill
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Jez (mahoobley)]
      #566493 - 12/01/08 02:33 PM
Many thanks for the link, and it's good to see that IMSTA - which genuinely represents a cross section of the industry rather than a morally bankrupt, aggressive, bunch of shysters -

"do not favor, nor would we ever participate in prosecution or any similarly aggressive methods."

It's fun to watch Waves execute one of the longest suicide notes in history though.

It looks like anyone genuinely concerned about this issue might be better off in the IMSTA camp. From some past professional experience of political lobbying etc, I know who I would rather listen to if I were a legislator.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (12/01/08 02:34 PM)


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9130
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #566528 - 12/01/08 04:22 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

It's fun to watch Waves execute one of the longest suicide notes in history though.




I dunno, it seems this has mostly blown over. There's the usual Waves-hate of course, but I can see a huge amount of talk about banpiracy any more after the initial wave of outrage...


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Tui
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Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: Zukan]
      #566562 - 12/01/08 05:21 PM
Well, what are they doing then? Do they still send their software Gestapo around?


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Tommy Tucker



Joined: 27/06/06
Posts: 35
Re: Banpiracy................Further to the Waves story new [Re: desmond]
      #566727 - 13/01/08 11:56 AM
Quote desmond:

I dunno, it seems this has mostly blown over...




Don't know about that. I was chatting about banpiracy with a mate of mine who works in retail and he says he hasn't sold a Waves plug-in for over a year. Their products come with so much baggage at the moment (anybody out there had fun with WUP?), I don't think a lot of potential customers can simply be arsed? I know I can't...


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