--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Funnily enough, just the other day these exact two geezers rolled up in a white van, got out, and said "Do you wanna buy some speakers..?"

Usual disclaimer: I'm totally against piracy.

So the guy on the left is a former director of Waves and "Waves is our initial client".

That's not exactly an impartial industry initiative is it?

As to the statement that "80% of European studios" are using pirated siftware - well possibly if you include every bedroom PC. I think that's a risible statemet and frankly defamatory to a (largely) honest and respectable industry - and not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.

And given the furore caused by Waves bullying tactics with their own "initiative", I'd be surprised if many other reputable industry players want to climb on this particular bandwagon only to see their own brands damaged by association.

Waves shot themselves in the foot bigtime (and possibly also the anti-piracy cause). It will be a rash company which rushes to do the same.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

What I don't understand is how they can enforce this??

They don't have any right to come into your studio (well to some people their home) and just say "oh excuse me I want to pop in look at all your computers and check what software you are using".

I just have no idea how they plan to do this and as for 80% of the software being cracked in europe are you having a laugh... so that means that all the companies are able to develop and release new products on 1/5 of what they should be making? I think Mr banpiracy plucked that figure out of the sky.

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

This is all well and good, but as far as i can tell. Anybody i know thats using waves software, if they have the cracked version. They wouldnt have bought it otherwise, anybody that really has the facilities and need to use it such as large studios, have actually paid for it.

If waves are expecting all the laptop bedroom producers to go out and buy their software cause of a threat that they might face legal action is just ludicrous, the most likely thing from a scare is that they will simply delete the software. Leading less people to go on and buy from waves when they can afford it.

I dont think this can be compared to illegal music filesharing as that is something that everybody can afford to buy but given the option 8/10 people are going to go for the option where they can get a £10 cd for free.

Meh i dont use waves anyway

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

I thought that was a washing machine in the background..

--------------------
[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

I'm a home studio, and all my software/plugins are legit and registered.

80% of European studios using cracks?
I smell marketing hype there.
Funny how they didn't name any other software companies other than Waves- I wonder if that means they don't have anyone else yet?
It'll be interesting to see how the first court cases they mention go.

Erm ... obvious question : How do they identify the 'studios' that are using cracks? I'm missing something here.... or can anyone simply demand access to your work / home to perform an audit without question?

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Just found their website and it has the following :

Quote:

---

Email us at report@banpiracy.com to report cases of illegal audio software usage.

Your anonymity will be completely protected.

---

hmmmmnnnnn..... anyone know the legal implications of a blind tip-off? Does it stand up in court?

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

So basically they don't know any studios at all and this is a direct quote from their website

"It is very easy to trace the use of cracked software.
Today, BanPiracy is in the process of prosecuting hundreds
and hundreds of cases worldwide."

No what they mean is "its very easy, we get an email from anyone in the world telling us a studio is using cracks". clap clap banpiracy, your method of tracing cracked software sounds like the Trotters Independant Trading way of doing it

Seriously, so I email waves, say The Saw Mills (or any other studio Air, Abbey Road lol!) are using cracks and they send a guy round?? What dribble, a waste of money. If music software companies create good software at a competative price, users will buy it.



--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (16/10/07 10:18 PM)

Well I'm afraid you guys might be wrong about this...If I had a waves plug in for every time a producer has offered me the whole set 'cracked' I'd have the diamond bundle by now...honestly...I've not met anyone who's using the legit version I dont think...And quite frankly they're using them on everything. They consider them superior and they use them accordingly.

A lot of these people are making good money. Waves have EVERY right to do this, and if an independant body sets up to pursue people then so be it.

Guys...these people are using their extensive plug in lists to take work that might otherwise have come to you. You may not want to believe that but 'waves' is like 'pro tools' in a studio. Punters like it.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

It is a bit odd that Waves are basically throwing themselves under this particular train. They will suffer long term, especially their brand. It is a big PR gamble. But I am surprised a software company has not taken this stance before.

What I find totally surreal is how I speak to friends of mine who are in the music business, and they are 'struggling'; desperate to get composing gigs, writing songs they hope others will license, praying that one of their releases or stock compostions on the shelf will be taken for a commercial or corporate; basically desperate for any kind of income from licensing their work - and then with the other hand they are on Bit Torrent downloading samples and cracked plug-ins!

...I am actually quite stupified the more I think about it...

Jack - they have the right. It's the methods that suck, including barefaced entrapment (see previous threads e.g. the story about the guy who downloaded a demo to - er - demonstrate to the Waves mystery shopper, and confirmed if they booked the studio he'd buy it: they nicked him!).

Stories like this - which they don't even try to deny, but seek through legal spokesmen to justify as being a fair cop (!!!) are more than enough to ensure that I at least will never sully my studio with their rotten product in a million years.

If you know lots of producers using cracks, turn them in - they are unfair competition to you, and get no sympathy from me.

But on the basic economics of the thing - £7,500 for the Mercury Bundle? At Thomann prices? They are having a laugh. It's just not anywhere near that good.

No matter how hard you try, you can't spend a third of that on say four UAD cards and every bit of software available to run on them.

And that's Waves' problem. They are fighting the wrong war, because to admit their product is (at least) twice the price the market is prepared to pay will piss off a lot of stockholders. Tough. That's the business they're in.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

I find it unlikely that they'll be turning users of pirated software into customers by levying "penalties" against them.

Well, i now know of 4 long established studios, including two very well known ones, who have been caught using Waves with no license . One of them told Waves. "Heres 500 quid, that's actually what it is worth, now go away"..

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

That's what I think:

If you are making any money out of your music, you SHOULD not be forgiven if you are caught using software.

If you are a bed room musician hobbyist, and just try things out, maybe for fun, maybe you also know that you will never make it, therefore you are not taking it seriously, and most likely cannot afford the real price... That' s more understandable.

Further, I'll compare this to the great and fantastic:
http://www.jeroenwijering.com/
Thanks to the SOS member (forgot his/her name) who introduced me to him a while back.

Jeroen say: It's FREE to download and use. BUT, for commercial use, buy a license. As a side note, his products beat anything out there.

Now, you would have to be a big scum bag to make money out of Jeroen's products, and not pay him for a license, which is ridiculously cheap.

I am NOT saying that every companies should do the same, but this is a good example of how things could work in this world.

Once again, my problem is real Studios, or people making money with music, and use cracks, this is no good. Or, Mr big shot, who drives a big expensive car, latest mobile phone, high payed job - and use F***ing cracks!

I would NOT want to see a poor man with a GOOD heart being penalized because he uses cracks, because maybe, that' all he has got in his life, a computer and few software, and he/she cannot even afford the household bills.

This is my theory in this world. Probably many won't agree with me, but that's what I think.

What I hate, is the musician who's got a budget for a setup, spend all his/her money on the kit, then didn't save for software, and use cracks instead.

I like Robin Hood, I like Mother theresa, I like the REAL MAFIA back in Sicily, where they used to still from the rich, to give to the poor. Jesus said, men shouldn't be prosecuted if they still food because they are hungry. Today we live in abundance, we are spoiled, compare to our grand parents, and great grand parents. Food is more available, but poverty still exist, and the internet can help people, they can socialize more easily. So I compared the food with the plugins, while it's not quite the same, ok, but I would say, open your mind, and see the big picture. It's still a cruel world, indeed.

--------------------
-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/

Edited by lg (17/10/07 02:19 AM)

Quote:

---

But on the basic economics of the thing - £7,500 for the Mercury Bundle? At Thomann prices? They are having a laugh. It's just not anywhere near that good.

---

They aren’t having a laugh Steve; they have always had a plan.

Waves cynically raised their prices to such a ridiculous level knowing full well it would attract a lot of people… to use a crack… thereby creating a huge number of people they could go after for even larger sums of money.

What we are seeing is phase two of their plan swinging into action.

I’m not saying companies shouldn’t make a profit, of course they should. Companies have every right to protect their IP but Waves tactic seems such a transparent and cynical manipulation; a money making plan, nothing more, nothing less.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

i'm gonna go out on a limb and admit to using cracked software on a try-before-buy basis - where else in life would you spend a large sum of money without trying out the product first?

here's my question - why don't software companies generally lower their prices? While (for instance) Waves Diamond Bundle is £2000+, and crackable, of course even usually honest people are going to be tempted. if it cost 80% less, maybe those 80% of users would buy the software?

The other question of course is why they made their software crackable - you don't see people stealing copies of cubase 4 because the security is up to the job...

--------------------
the first of recording is, don't talk about recording...

I think that might be a bit of a stretch, Tim. I think they're just trying to scare people into not using pirated copies of their software. I would contest however, that most people using pirated copies are not "studios"; they are people with a computer and a mic in their bedrooms. They'll happily use an expensive plugin bundle if they can get it for free, but they'd never pay thousands of pounds for one.

Now, I have no doubt that there are commercial enterprises who are using pirated copies; I hope it's these people who they are going to go after. But their 80% statistic would lead me to believe that they are including pretty much anyone with a copy of ProTools in their definition of a studio.

someone i know was caught out recently by a client visiting their studio, saying they wanted that 'waves sound' on a recording, so when the engineer (who wouldnt normally use waves) installed a crack - just for this project - a week later he gets a bill for £5,000.00 from waves to avoid legal action.

I dont agree with using pirated software, but i also strongly object to entrapment - the police cant do it - why should waves be able to get away with it?

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote phlebas:

---

if it cost 80% less, maybe those 80% of users would buy the software?

---

While we're at it, why not for free? Or maybe everyone that works in waves should get whatever the minimum salary in Bangladesh is, as long as they can price their products to your convenience. Maybe 0.1 an hour would be good for you? A software engineer working for 6 months on a project at a 40 hour week would get a whooping 96 euros in those 6 months and thus the product could have an 80% price cut, or whatever percentage you decide to pull out of your ass.

Waves methods may not be nice, but people using cracked software for commercial purposes are parasites. Getting away with paying the normal price of the software is too little, in my opinion.

+1 for the pro Waves camp here. As a legitimate user and supporter of the product, I support any initiatives to remove illegal users from the 'game'.
Yes, the 'Israeli' way might be seen as heavy handed but legitimate users have nothing to fear.

I actually wonder if Banpiracy is actually an attempt (by Waves) to distance the company from the enforcement activities.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!

---

I am just imagining this confrontation - wonderful.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Nuno, the fact is that "their" product is not worth £7,500 I mean seriously, when you put Waves plugins into perspective...

a UAD Extreme costs £1299 - 32 plugins

buy another 3 UAD cards (3 x project pak) = £800

so you have spent £2099 and now have 4 dsp cards and 32 plugins. Ok so you fancy Altiverb because its probably the best verb on the planet... we are upto £2500 oh and then you can buy a Mac Book Pro Laptop (2.4gigs duo, 2 gigs memory, 160gig drive, 8 x double layer dvd drive and a 256 G force card) £1,799.00. So we are now upto £4299

Lets whack on a Fireface 800 for £770 and while we are here I will whack on a Mackie Control Universal Pro for £900 and we are upto £5969.

Oh and lets add in a Focusrite isa 428 £1200 so thats £7169 or you could go for a 828 for £1700 and be like £7650

So its either the Wave Mecury pack or

UAD Extreme Plugins Set
4 x UAD cards
Altiverb
Mac Book Pro Laptop (17 inch)
Mackie Control Universal Pro
RME Fireface 800
Focusrite 428/828 Preamp

I think I know which bundle I would choose and just think if you already have a good computer, you could spend the £1799 on a pair of 1k monitors and then spend the £800 on some acoustic panels I would never choose a studio on what plugins they have, you choose a studio because of the recording spaces and of course budget and a small thing called... The Engineer

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Edited by Henry-S (17/10/07 10:08 AM)

My point exactly. I was just too lazy to do the maths.

UAD can do say the Neve 88RS channel strip at $239. I doubt if the software engineers in California consider themselves underpaid. And probably nobody ever has to pay $239 because every three months or so UAD reward their loyal customers with some discount vouchers. (There's a $25 discount on it throughout October, and another $150 discount available if you buy another card before 31 December.)

Israeli corporate accountability is notoriously non-transparent (Swiss bank accounts are easier to penetrate), but someone is making unreasonable shed-loads of money here. And they're not having any of mine to add to their grubby profiteering little pile.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Everything you're saying makes perfect sense...there are other equally good if not better options out there for the majority of the plug ins on offer and at a more attractive price...the consumer has choice...

BUT the real issue here is that people just don't see piracy as a 'proper crime' so accordingly, those who would NEVER steal a packet of sweets from a supermarket think it quite ok to use cracked plug ins...it probably falls into the 'little bit naughty but everyone does it' category for them. And as increasingly, our world goes from the tangible to the virtual, now is the time to stamp a value on these things, to draw a line with software and music and film and try to change people's attitudes to protect our livlihoods. So any new company that aims to enforce these copyrights and thereby change the way people percieve piracy is doing us all a favour...regardless of how we might feel about their previous employment.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Jack - they have the right. It's the methods that suck, including barefaced entrapment (see previous threads e.g. the story about the guy who downloaded a demo to - er - demonstrate to the Waves mystery shopper, and confirmed if they booked the studio he'd buy it: they nicked him!).

---

Steve, I have heard this story as well, and I find it a bit hard to believe that this is *exactly* the way it happened for several reasons:

1) If someone asked me about Waves plugs in my studio, the *last* thing I would think about doing is downloading *anything* to show them how the plugs worked. In the extreme, I might call up the Waves website to show them a few things, but this just seems a bit far-fetched and smells a bit funny...

2) If it really did happen as is claimed in the stories, this guy would have MORE THAN ENOUGH legal ground to stand on to fight this. Come on, a legit 14-day demo version and then a bill??? That just doesn't happen, I am sorry. Tons of folks download the Waves demos from the Waves site, use them for 14 days or less, and let them expire.

There is just something about this story that doesn't seem quite right, even though I have heard it repeated several times.

Maybe the guy actually downloaded a crack and not a demo? Maybe the guy already had it on his computer and then claimed that he "just downloaded it" to make his story sound better???

I am just guessing here...

First off, it is pretty well known around here that I am not a Waves fan, and no longer support them. I think there policies are crap, and this latest scheme of using entrapment tactics is stooping to a new low, but I still have to say that some of the stories, as Mr. Tolkien said, "Grew in the telling...".

I do believe that they are sending in their agents and working to coerce studios to show them their Waves plugins, and "encouraging" them to download cracks so they can bust them... that part I believe, but this part about getting busted for downloading a demo is a bit much.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

The license agreement you accept pre-install says you cannot use demos in a commercial environment.

So *technically*, even installing a demo and showing it to a client is breaking the terms of the license. Whether it's "illegal" or whatever, or would hold up in court is another matter entirely, but it would cost the user to find out...

I don't have a problem with companies taking a stand and willing to be the bad guy to fight abuse of their intellectual property. Mystery shopping doesn't qualify as entrapment either as I understand.

I am somewhat bemused at the "Waves, the big baddie going after us innocent studio owners" attitude that follows this story around. People running cracks don't really deserve any sympathy, *especially* in a commercial setting.

(The "demo" situation is a little different and understandable)

In short, if you have paid for all your software and have legitimate installs, you have nothing to worry about, even if Waves *do* decide to target you. It's not that much different to business software audits, and they are common in other industries.

I *do* think the whole Banpiracy organisation is trying to pretend to be a united front against piracy when all it looks like is a collection agency, but that's another matter. Their image problem is what may prevent other companies signing on with them, but in many ways I think it's good Waves took a stand and said "Ok, enough is enough, time to get a little more serious" - I'm sure many other software companies are watching the outcome of this *very* carefully...

Quote desmond:

---

The license agreement you accept pre-install says you cannot use demos in a commercial environment.

So *technically*, even installing a demo and showing it to a client is breaking the terms of the license. Whether it's "illegal" or whatever, or would hold up in court is another matter entirely, but it would cost the user to find out...

I don't have a problem with companies taking a stand and willing to be the bad guy to fight abuse of their intellectual property. Mystery shopping doesn't qualify as entrapment either as I understand.

I am somewhat bemused at the "Waves, the big baddie going after us innocent studio owners" attitude that follows this story around. People running cracks don't really deserve any sympathy, *especially* in a commercial setting.

(The "demo" situation is a little different and understandable)

In short, if you have paid for all your software and have legitimate installs, you have nothing to worry about, even if Waves *do* decide to target you. It's not that much different to business software audits, and they are common in other industries.

I *do* think the whole Banpiracy organisation is trying to pretend to be a united front against piracy when all it looks like is a collection agency, but that's another matter. Their image problem is what may prevent other companies signing on with them, but in many ways I think it's good Waves took a stand and said "Ok, enough is enough, time to get a little more serious" - I'm sure many other software companies are watching the outcome of this *very* carefully...

---

This might be true, however, if you are a commercial studio how do you use a demo in a non-commercial environment? This seems crazy and a good way to annoy alot of genuine customers.

Presumably in off-hours, when the studio is closed and doesn't have paying clients in it, you check out the software for evaluation purposes only, you don't commit any processing to clients projects and you uninstall before the next session.

Dunno, I can't say I've ever read the license in full...

Quote thenaturallevel:

---

This might be true, however, if you are a commercial studio how do you use a demo in a non-commercial environment? This seems crazy and a good way to annoy alot of genuine customers.

---

I might use a demo, in my own time, to learn a package and to decide whether to buy it for commercial exploitation.

There's lots of reasons why a commercial studio might want to try before they buy!

I agree with DH a bit though - there are a few stories surrounding this whole saga which add up to "methinks he doth protest too much". Pinches of salt required all round.

But it's still overpriced for what it is!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There's lots of reasons why a commercial studio might want to try before they buy!

---

Of course - but there's a difference between the owners/managers of a commercial studio demoing the product outside of a session to make a purchase decision, versus actually using demos on clients' projects during a paid session - and it's that Waves want to be firm on.

I agree with Steve and others that, in the current economic climate (particularly as regards the music industry), the software is overpriced. Many small and even medium sized concerns would struggle to justify the outlay.

In so far as the pricing policy does have an impact on whether users can justify the purchase, that is a legitimate point. I feel that less would be inclined to use illegal copies if there was a better perception of value for money. That said, this is, in fact a separate issue form enforcing IPR's.

With Waves there is "no value for money" its a name which has become one that people pay for, just like pro tools and the problem is now.... people realise you can get the same products for less money.

The reason why 20% of people only buy is because the other 80% either download it and the other people go and buy other plugins which are a reasonable price. I mean don't get me wrong C4 and L2 are great plugins, but other that that nothing in the Waves range makes me go "oh woah I must have that".

Now yeah 2k for the Mercury bundle, thats looking more attractive (although still think the UAD/DSP would be my avenue) but they surely would notice the amount of cracked copies being used go down because it would actually be classed as "an afforadable" set of plugs.

--------------------
There is nothing Grim about this Reaper
We Fell From The Sky

Quote Henry-S:

---

Nuno, the fact is that "their" product is not worth £7,500 .....

---

Well, that is your opinion, and it may well be mine also, but I fail to see how the hell that serves as any justification to piracy.

And, while we're at it, every other month there's some big name producer featured in SOS that uses renEQ and RenComp, two plug ins that can be bought in a bundle for around 180 euros. How come that never gets mentioned in these threads? All people mention is one the top of the line biggest bundle that probably has many years of development behind it. Waves think that it has that value. Don't agree? There are many options available.

These threads all end up in people trying to blame waves for creating or at least encouraging piracy of their own software. Yet, all software is pirated, regardless of price. There's plenty of cracks and serial generators of voxengo, is that also because they're overpriced?

I don't see a lot of people here trying to "justify piracy".

It's perfectly fair comment to discuss whether Waves' pricing (and indeed enforcement tactics) might be part of their problem, rather than a solution. As you say, it's a matter of opinion.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

I have followed this thread with interest as I have been tempted by Waves plugins in the past. I acted on my right as a consumer not to buy their product. Software piracy is theft simple as, however, as has been mentioned before Waves are not the only kid in town.

So are 'Banpiracy' (what kind of name is that anyway? Like piracy isn't already 'banned') going to go after people who crack any brand of audio software, or just Waves stuff?

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote desmond:

---

Presumably in off-hours, when the studio is closed and doesn't have paying clients in it, you check out the software for evaluation purposes only, you don't commit any processing to clients projects and you uninstall before the next session.

Dunno, I can't say I've ever read the license in full...

---

I think their lawyers will look to enforce this as not to be used in a commercial studio at all, either during "working hours", or when it is closed. A lot of studios don't work "normal" 9-5 hours so this would be difficult to enforce. If it was me and I was looking to spend £7500 I would want to test it on a real project.

Quote Mahoobley:

---

So are 'Banpiracy' (what kind of name is that anyway? Like piracy isn't already 'banned') going to go after people who crack any brand of audio software, or just Waves stuff?

---

They imply in that interview that they only pursue on behalf of specific clients, Waves being the first one on their books.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

I get the feeling that maybe waves are aware their products are overpriced in todays market, and this is a bit of a last stand to rake in as much cash as possible from non legit users - which is fair enough - before their sales dry up completely.

I also think that their statements re 80% of european studios using cracked software are fairly spurious and should be backed up, before Waves - and any other companies that join in with this witch hunt - lose their good reputations.

The only other thing i would say is that companies - both in the world of music and software - need to wise up to the digital age we live in, and sort out things like rights management and copy protection, as at present it is a bit of a shambles. If the product is so freely available, inevitably people will use it, whether right or wrong.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/dapperyouth

Quote thenaturallevel:

---

I have followed this thread with interest as I have been tempted by Waves plugins in the past. I acted on my right as a consumer not to buy their product. Software piracy is theft simple as, however, as has been mentioned before Waves are not the only kid in town.

---

Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.

Yeah, I take this view.

The phrase "software piracy is theft" is a marketing term used by the copyright owners to help try and stop people using pirate software out of fear/guilt/morals/whatever.

Software piracy is copyright infringement, unauthorised and unlicensed use, and a whole bunch of other stuff depending on the intellectual property, terms of use, license restrictions and whatever else is valid.

However, it is not theft under any definition of the term, nor seen as such under most legal frameworks, as far as I understand...

Quote desmond:

---

Yeah, I take this view.

The phrase "software piracy is theft" is a marketing term used by the copyright owners to help try and stop people using pirate software out of fear/guilt/morals/whatever.

Software piracy is copyright infringement, unauthorised and unlicensed use, and a whole bunch of other stuff depending on the intellectual property, terms of use, license restrictions and whatever else is valid.

However, it is not theft under any definition of the term, nor seen as such under most legal frameworks, as far as I understand...

---

It can be labelled however you want legally, as far as I'm concerned obtaining software without paying for it (software which is not freeware that is) is theft. This is my own opinion and not marketing speak. This does not mean I agree with how Waves are trying to enforce their "copyright" if the story mentioned before is true of course.

Quote Martin Walker:

---

Quote Mahoobley:

---

So are 'Banpiracy' (what kind of name is that anyway? Like piracy isn't already 'banned') going to go after people who crack any brand of audio software, or just Waves stuff?

---

They imply in that interview that they only pursue on behalf of specific clients, Waves being the first one on their books.

Martin

---

I wonder if this guy, who was previously a Director at Waves, stepped down (or across) to set up this company. My opinion is that it was set up purposely & primarily to protect Waves (and is a Waves initiative), but have left it open to all companies to avoid a direct grilling towards themselves should it backfire and alienate its user base.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I perceive it.

Cheers,
Peter

--------------------
Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote lg:

---

That's what I think:

If you are making any money out of your music, you SHOULD not be forgiven if you are caught using software.

---

Mwhahahahahaha!

-n.

The guy on the left is clearly a pretty f*cked up and angry little man. They've set themselves up as some kind of gestapo kickback merchants. And this "company" is a wretched operation - leeching off others. Nasty nasty nasty....

The best thing people can do is to totally avoid Waves' products whether legal or illegal.

Clearly, there's more bad karma involved in having anything to do with Waves than there is in using cracked sofwtare.

There are far superior products out there.

These wretched little toads are nasty little (little being the operative word) leeches.

Remember - BOYCOTT WAVES!

--------------------
Ouch!

Edited by Dennis Spank (18/10/07 06:07 PM)

Check these mens shady vibe, to me that instantly
says don't give them money. The dude on the left looks
like he is ready to punch someone, filled with anger, this
video is damning and shows the real deal.

There are maybe 2 plugins that waves make that are ok and both can be surpassed in quality, functionality and value(by a large margin) by some of the smaller developers.

I know who's plug ins I will be buying and they will not be
from this company.

On the other hand it's a double edged sword and I appreciate
that for those using legit plugs it is grossly unfair that someone profits from cracks. It's a weird one and hard to be
totally polarized.

Quote djangodeadman:

---

Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.

---

I gave up lawyering a few months ago, but yes, it is indeed theft.

That is not to say that there are not commercial reasons for pursuing civil remedies instead. That's up to the injured party (and the competence/resources of the police, but I digress...).

If I were to start selling Waves bundles on eBay for £30 in large quantities, I would not be at all surprised to end up facing criminal charges. It's a question of degree, and how much you are personally profiting from your theft, which appears to determine what remedies get pursued.

The technical definition of the offence is unchanged from teh Theft Act 1968 (in the UK) and is basically about appropriating another person's property. You don't own Waves copyright if you choose to steal it rather than buy a licence. QED.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

totally agree !waves is old.........

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!

---

This just seems like Waves wanting to take the heat off themselves by starting up a company under a different name to carry on their draconian tactics without damaging their public image.......

Guy on the left looks and acts like he is barely controlling his rage!
He looks like a psycho ex-mossad operative who is going to assassinate anyone using pirated Waves stuff!

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I very much look forward to the mystery shopper visiting my studio, when I will happily expound at interminable length why I would not have the product in my studio, why several cheaper products will do an equal or better job, why "that Waves sound" is so last year it has become a commercial cliche which nobody who is really innovative is using any longer, and why if they are sure they know better than me they had better go elsewhere!

---

You could always grass yourself up.

report@banpiracy.com

If you were to do such a thing, be sure to have a CCTV so we can all have a giggle.

Quote Johnny Wrong:

---

This just seems like Waves wanting to take the heat off themselves by starting up a company under a different name to carry on their draconian tactics without damaging their public image.......

---

You think they haven't done this already? Between this and WUP, they are seriously putting off customers. Their image is so bad right now, they should spend a bit of shareholders' money and get Max Clifford in to sort things out

so this is how they are gonna spend the leftover money form their ridiculously expensive computer programs...

Piracy will always happen if it is possible.

As Chris Rock says "a man is as faithful as his options"

If you remove the option of piracy then people will have to buy. this is what companys like Waves should put their money into rather than resorting to bully boy tactics.

The only option I can see is not actually providing the source code to the consumer. If the internet was fast enough then programs could run on a remote secure server which is tied to a particular hardware configuration. Very hard to crack, as the code never actauly reaches the public domain. I'm convinced this is the way things will go as soon as internet speeds catch up. We are already seeing the beginnings of it with google's online office applications.

Quote narpin99:

---

Piracy will always happen if it is possible.

As Chris Rock says "a man is as faithful as his options"

If you remove the option of piracy then people will have to buy. this is what companys like Waves should put their money into rather than resorting to bully boy tactics.

The only option I can see is not actually providing the source code to the consumer. If the internet was fast enough then programs could run on a remote secure server which is tied to a particular hardware configuration. Very hard to crack, as the code never actauly reaches the public domain. I'm convinced this is the way things will go as soon as internet speeds catch up. We are already seeing the beginnings of it with google's online office applications.

---

Er, no, no and no.

By "source code" you mean binaries. What you mean is a thin client / application server model. Not practical in a time-critical application. One glitch and bye bye customer...



--------------------
Ouch!

So, who's down for the Mercury bundle? The TDM is only $12,500. $7,500 native. By the time you convert that to Pounds, they're practically giving it away!

:evil:

Quote:

---

Piracy will always happen if it is possible.

As Chris Rock says "a man is as faithful as his options"

If you remove the option of piracy then people will have to buy. this is what companys like Waves should put their money into rather than resorting to bully boy tactics.

The only option I can see is not actually providing the source code to the consumer. If the internet was fast enough then programs could run on a remote secure server which is tied to a particular hardware configuration. Very hard to crack, as the code never actauly reaches the public domain. I'm convinced this is the way things will go as soon as internet speeds catch up. We are already seeing the beginnings of it with google's online office applications.

Er, no, no and no.

By "source code" you mean binaries. What you mean is a thin client / application server model. Not practical in a time-critical application. One glitch and bye bye customer...

---

I'm not sure how you can claim to know what technology will develop in the future?

I'm not saying it is possible now, or even in the next five years, but if the internet became as fast as a conventional hard drive (how do you know it won't? think how far it has come in 15 years!) then i can't see why it is not an option

I agree that such real-time access can't be ruled out for the future.

I think the short term will bring us a commoditization of plug-ins. Waves got in early with some strong products, but now there are many strong competitors, and a number of viable free products.

The algorithms for this kind of processing are not that hard to develop, and some people are making freeware plugs as a hobby. Also, the built-in plugs are getting better. So, my forecast is continued pressure on prices.

On another forum, I have seen some very established professionals report that the eq and compressor that comes with pro tools are very nice now. Its reverb is kind of mediocre, but that may be addressed in future releases as well. A few versions ago, their plugs were not very good and a third party offering was more compelling than it is today.

Quote Mark Knutson:

---

On another forum, I have seen some very established professionals report that the eq and compressor that comes with pro tools are very nice now. Its reverb is kind of mediocre, but that may be addressed in future releases as well. A few versions ago, their plugs were not very good and a third party offering was more compelling than it is today.

---

Logic 8's new compressor is a killer, the Channel EQ is good-to-very-good, and the Space Designer is about as good as software reverbs get... and the whole package is £319!

I live in a rural village at the extreme range of the local telephone exchange. Broadband access is at best passable, and sometimes pretty intermittent. My guess is we are decades away from me being able to use remotely hosted software. It's not about a couple of boffins coming up with something clever in a garage - it's about ripping out the entire UK telecoms network and replacing it with something better.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

My guess is hat the software market for eq and fx will become saturated - totally , the only way forward will become better abd better sounding stuff and for the price take Uad card ?and plugs ? why would anyone pay $$$$$$ for waves when uad stuff is simply way better soundwise.Waves i am afraid are on the way down.

I personally now use Uad card and the Oxford native plugins and the rest are freeware weird stuff.There is simply no fx i any longer need.The uad cards blow away an hardware i owned so what is left for waves or others to sell me?

Running software on a daw via web / servers? my god ........i can see it happening but i persoanlly dont know one professional studio daw on the web !!!!!!! and i know abouyt 30 studio owners who all wine about dongle authentication which they have to do via office pcs and transfer over.......sensible people dony have their studio system online , a daw is for making music and so the oidea of running software ona system which each time needs server authetication is going to be like asking the user to phone the company everytime they wish to use th plugins ! its all so tedious......all about ££$£$ and whats going to happen is that these software developers will eventually saturate the market.......i know so many software users who noe Dont update....no longer buy new software etc.......they all say the same thing.......i have enough and all i need........

I downloaded Waves plugins with absolutely no intention of buying the full versions, as I simply can't afford them!

I wanted to see just how much better the 'best' plugins were than my bargain basement and (mainly) free ones. My conclusion was that they're not that much better: even if I had thousands to invest in processing, I'd spend it on hardware, which I'd feel much more excited about forking out thousands for.

It's the same reason that I use Cubase (legitimately!) and not Nuendo: there really doesn't seem to be a justification for splashing so much on something that's only a little better. I'd get Sonar or a cheaper one if I wasn't a Cubase user from Atari days who can't handle other programs interfaces!

It also seems to be the reason so many people are moving to Reaper et al. I was interested to see that Logic is now a lot cheaper: obviously Apple have hardware-based reasons for that change, but it seems to me that if firms priced their software cheaper, they'd have more legitimate users and wouldn't lose the cash.

Most crack-users (software crack-users ) must feel the guilt and instability-fear of using them and would gladly 'go straight' if the products were in their financial reach. I doubt there are many studio owners who forgo paying for Waves bundles to buy Faberge eggs!

Think of how different the views of Waves expressed in this thread would be if it was about them slashing their prices, not initiating a scary secret-police-style fear campaign.

i m one of those caught in the banpiracy initiative; we use all legal steinberg software, uad plugs and wanted to see how waves worked; tried to get a demo from our supplier; no chance; a friend offered us the plugs to try which we did on several personal, test projects; thought they were good but too expensive for us; and forget to erase them; now we were either denounced, which seems unlikely, since we hardly publicised the fact; or it appears that whoever is behind the initiative claimed that we advertised wavelab on our website, which is true, and that wavelab was a waves product, which is not, to get a court order to examine our computer; we are now facing lengthy costly proceedings, and a heavy fine, for a company that made less than 2500 profit last year; i make no excuses; just another side to the story

If that's true, then wasn't the court order obtained illegally? I'm sure that that was a dodgy thing to do and sounds like a case of knowlingly providing false information to the court. That sould get them a good fine / legal kick up the backside, no?

The moral of the story here is to get hold of legit demos - your post is just another reason why cracks should be avoided like the plague.

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote nukegroup:

---

Most crack-users (software crack-users ) must feel the guilt and instability-fear of using them and would gladly 'go straight' if the products were in their financial reach.

---

That is crap.

There are plenty of software apps cracked out there that cost 20 and 30 USD and even less. Most crack users won't pay for software because they can get it free, it's that simple. They don't value the work put into it by the programmers at all and they don't see it as anything wrong.


I'm honestly getting fed up with people blaming companies and pricing policies for piracy.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Quote djangodeadman:

---

Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.

---

I gave up lawyering a few months ago, but yes, it is indeed theft.

---

'A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it'
This is quoted on several sites explaining the law.

Surely in the case of pirated software - the owner of the copyright is not being deprived of the software - they still have their copy (and rights over the software)?
I'm not a lawyer - I think it's the bit I put in bold that causes the confusion on this technically theft/not theft thing- can anyone explain?

This is a bit of a point of pendantry in relation to the main issues here, but I'd like to know.

Quote Neil C:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Quote djangodeadman:

---

Software piracy is not theft; if it was, you could go to prison for it. It is breach of copyright, which leaves you open to a claim for (theoretically unlimited) damages.

---

I gave up lawyering a few months ago, but yes, it is indeed theft.

---

'A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it'
This is quoted on several sites explaining the law.

Surely in the case of copied software - the owner of the copyright is not being deprived of the software - they still have their copy?
I'm not a lawyer - I think it's the bit in bold that causes the confusion on this technically theft/not theft thing- can anyone explain?

This is a bit of a point of pendantry in relation to the main issues here, but I'd like to know.

---

They are being deprived of the license agreement at least, and of all rights they have over the intellectual property.

But they do still have their rights over the software. Hence they can sue.
And how can you steal an agreement? You can contravene one, but steal it?

thanks dave b; you are right on every count; piracy is wrong; but in my neck of the woods a demo was not available; we feel we have been wrongly targeted, so do we spend lots of money we haven't got on legal fees to fight it; i'm reading here and on other forums that studios are taking up the option of buying the software, paying reduced legal fees as a "penalty", and thus end of story; not sure i agree with the ethics

Quote Neil C:

---

But they do still have their rights over the software. Hence they can sue.
And how can you steal an agreement? You can contravene one, but steal it?

---

Well, it's a matter of opinion I guess.

I definitely see it as stealing, simply because you are taking something that does not belong to you without paying the price requested by the owner of that property. Of course you have to be able to recognize and value the concept of intellectual property in order to view it that way.

I suppose by your definition since no one is stealing an actual physical copy from someone or somewhere, like the shelves of a store or a warehouse then it's not stealing. I don't agree, and I see little point in discussing it, since any of these discussions hardly ever leads anywhere.

Englishman, I suppose that it would be worth the cost of a single consultation to see if what you think is true is in fact the case. If it is, then it might be worth giving it a punt. After all, if you don't have £1000 for legal fees then you don't have £100,000 either!

Are you here or in the 'States? If it's this side of the pond then there are people who might be able to give a more expert opinion on this.

Also, if it's not too forward, I'd be fascinated to know how much they are chasing you for.

On a general note to all and sundry, if anyone can't get hold of demo versions, then a post round these parts may be a way forward. Although it doesn't look it sometimes, we generally do support each other on these forums and a quick download, cd burn and jiffy bag might not be too much of a drag for some bored muso!

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

They have at least been deprived of the price of one sale. I call that theft, like I call nicking a Mars bar from a sweet shop theft. Sure, Mars can make lots more, for a fraction of the retail price....

If it's not a crime (but only liable to a civil recovery action) then the law is an ass (which it may be) as it is then "legal" for us all to pirate everything, and probably give or sell copies to others, calculating that the worst case scenario is we might get caught and have to pay for it.

The UK (unlike the US) will not entertain the concept of punitive damages - and a good thing too - so the worst you would be faced with in a UK court is having to pay for the software you "accidentally borrowed", plus maybe some adverse legal fees.

It would not be in the interests of Waves to bring such an action... which may be why they have launched 40 suits in California against studios who refused to settle but (to date) none outside the USA... where penal damages are (bizarrely) the norm.

To be clear: that's the civil law position. I also robustly and firmly believe that in the UK at least copyright theft is - er - theft, and a criminal offence.

The fact that the Crown Prosectuion Service seems reluctant or incapable of doing anything about it is a different debate. But the risk of a criminal conviction at least keeps this particular studio honest.

I also remain firmly of the view that this unashamed witch hunt by Waves will earn them no friends and is in every conceivable sense the worst possible strategic move they could have made for their business. It all has an aura of tragic desperation about it. There are no good guys in the whole sorry saga, just an assorted bunch of greedy bad guys on all sides - including lawyers - trying to empty each others' pockets. It's pretty sickening really, on a par with some of the more ludicrous excesses of Monster cables' litigation mania (trying to sue Disney for Monsters Inc , closing down a Monster seafood restaurant in Louisiana) etc etc.

I'm afraid I can only view companies like this with utter contempt, larded with a bit of pity, and a 110% personal commitment never to put myself in the slightest danger of having to contribute to their earnings.

But the market, not I, will decide whether this strategy leads to bankruptcy.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Waves could learn a lot from Universal Audio. UA's model of continuously giving away discounts supported by a healthy stream of plugin releases is managing to maintain some excitement in the platform -- meaning good sales. And as someone above said, i'm sure if UA can deliver awesome plugins for 300€, so can Waves.

Waves are arrogant. If you remove the bundle's price tag you're left with what i'd call a good bundle of plugins, but not fifteen times better than the competition.

Quote babeleGrande:

---

Waves could learn a lot from Universal Audio. UA's model of continuously giving away discounts supported by a healthy stream of plugin releases is managing to maintain some excitement in the platform -- meaning good sales. And as someone above said, i'm sure if UA can deliver awesome plugins for 300€, so can Waves.

---

Then again UAD doesn't have to worry about piracy, do they? All the people using their plugins do give money to the company, don't they?

While reading this thread I thought I would do a google experiment.
Im not going to reveal exactly what I typed into google but Waves need to clearly wake up.
I can obtain pretty much any of their software freely just by asking google a few questions!
I dare say so could anyone else.

I also know of someone who has been making a living from selling pirate software for the last 4 years and is a major link in the chain.
I have spoken to various software companies and none of them offered any incentive for my information.
I basically offered them security and they didnt want to spend on it and continue to loose or not perhaps!

At the end of the day we live in a digital world and security seems to always be low on the agenda and is often an after thought after the problem has arisen.

Its funny that the adult websites I instal security scripts for and audit are seeming to be spending more on security than music software companies!

hello dave b; we are in europe, but not england; i'm being a little cagey because having been caught out once by the big bad wolf, i'm sharing our experience without publicising too much who we are in case we decide to fight it down the line; basically we are being asked, or rather the courts are being asked to force us, to pay 100,000 euros in damages to Waves, plus legal costs, estimated by the plaintiff as being 10000 euros; obviously this is meant to impress us, (which at first did!) plus a visit from a bailiff with a policeman and computer whizz in tow is never a pleasant experience; all this for software that costs less than 2000 euros;

i presume your comments are ironic; the difference between UAD and waves plugs is that you need to have the UAD card fitted in your machine; their plugs are not stand alone;

They are asking for £70,000!?!

So much for their video where they say "we're not trying to punish studios, we are just trying to get them to go legit". The implication being that they are basically going after the retail sale of those plugins, plus costs, so if you are found to have illegal stuff, they expect to chrge you the full price of their plugins (which will probably be the big £7K bundle, even if you only "demoed" one plugin) plus some overhead.

Or is it the case where they've basically said to you, for £8k (or whatever) you get a legit licensed bundle and we'll go away, but if you refuse, *then* we'll go after full damages in court?

well in fact its the other way round; unlike what i understood happened in the states, we had no initial contact with an offer to go "legit"; the first we knew was the bailiff, then the court order, with the 100000 euros plus costs demanded; it was only afterwards via my software retailer that we found out about this whole banpiracy business, and this forum; so i have no idea as yet what will happen if we try to "negotiate"; and just an aside; i have been told by a very reliable source, i have no idea whether it is true, that "moles" who denounced people were being given software as a "reward"; great world we live in

Quote an englishman in paris:

---

well in fact its the other way round; unlike what i understood happened in the states, we had no initial contact with an offer to go "legit"; the first we knew was the bailiff, then the court order, with the 100000 euros plus costs demanded;

---

Sounds well dodgy to me - they can't get a court order against you without you being given a chance to defend yourself.

If you had no prior warning - ie: letters sent in advance, I would be tempted to reply that this is an illegal scam to extort money with menaces.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

well we do have a chance to defend ourselves; maybe my translation of legal procedures here is not good; we have been summoned to go to court where we can defend ourselves; and even if we are found "guilty" there is obviously a reasonable chance that any "damages" will be much less than that demanded by the plaintiff; but to do this we need a lawyer; and we could counterattack because as i said from the beginning the court order was based on a false declaration; but we are a tiny company; and in the end it would cost less if we went "legit" and try to negotiate; even though it is not the "courageous" thing to do

Clearly the lesson to be learned from this is that it is extremely BAD KARMA to use Waves Products either bought or not.

BOYCOTT WAVES!

Even the free EQ supplied with Cubase is better than the Waves crap.

--------------------
Ouch!

This thread is not about the quality of their products, it is about their business practices.

Englishman, your experience is counter to everything official they have said regarding the BanPiracy organisation, so any credibility they might have had has gone out the window in my book. It indeed looks to me like simply an attempt to forcibly extract as much money as they can...

Yep... BOYCOTT WAVES!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote desmond:

---

This thread is not about the quality of their products, it is about their business practices.

I agree 100%

Quote desmond:

---

It indeed looks to me like simply an attempt to forcibly extract as much money as they can...

---

Confirming the suspicions I voiced when this first hit the fan about 6 weeks ago.

I can't believe no-one from Waves is reading this thread.

Why are they so scared to respond publicly and on the record?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Easy maths:

Income from "questionable" tactics: $800,000

Expenses (lawyers, costs, etc): -$300,000

Gross profit: $500,000

Loss of income due to bad PR and karma: -$500,000

Net profit: NIL



*moderator edited. to make a point*

--------------------
Ouch!

Edited by Max! (17/11/07 12:33 AM)

sorry dennis; I am contributing to this forum to try and get some sense out of the situation; I welcome all support and solidarity; but I disassociate myself with your comments here; I don't think that it helps anyone to start insulting people and using racist remarks

Quote an englishman in paris:

---

sorry dennis; I am contributing to this forum to try and get some sense out of the situation; I welcome all support and solidarity; but I disassociate myself with your comments here; I don't think that it helps anyone to start insulting people and using racist remarks

---

Er, I think this thread was started before your contribution so please don't feel the need to disassociate yourself!

...I'm not insulting anyone or being "racist", merely stating the facts:

1. Waves is an Israeli compmany.
2. Their present tactics are heavy-handed and illegal - therefore "neo-Nazi" is an appropriate adjective that I think adds some colourful irony, just as one may refer to American foreign policy as "fascist".

Anyway, I don't do "PC" in any way, shape or form.


--------------------
Ouch!

ok dennis; we can still be friends;

Quote an englishman in paris:

---

ok dennis; we can still be friends;

---

--------------------
Ouch!

Quote Dennis Spank:

---

Easy maths:

Income from "Questionable" tactics: $800,000

---

Given the events of WWII and before, that's beyond crass, bordering on what ought to be actionable.




** Mod edited to maintain coherence in quotation***

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

Edited by Max! (17/11/07 12:37 AM)

Quote Hol:

---

Quote Dennis Spank:

---

Easy maths:

Income from "Questionable" tactics: $800,000

---

Given the events of WWII and before, that's beyond crass, bordering on what ought to be actionable.

---

Tough. I say what I like. "Action" me darling.





" Mod Edited to maintain coherence"




--------------------
Ouch!

Edited by Max! (17/11/07 12:36 AM)

Quote Dennis Spank:

---

Tough. I say what I like. "Action" me darling.

---

Personally, I do not care for your comments or your attitude either. You can say what you like, but I do not have to like what you say.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Dennis. you are politely requested to cease and desist upsetting those who may find your choice of phrase somewhat offensive.

While Waves may be accused of taking the extreme view... it's not entirely undeserved in many cases, and frankly it's about time some of the software industry stood up for it's right to earn a living, and indeed to make a profit for their investors... they're after all, in business, like everyone else.... to make money, in return for their investment of capital and time.


although some of their representatives would certainly appear to have been somewhat underhanded, this does NOT make them Neo-Nazi's .

given the history , and sociopolitical origin, it's an epithet you ought to apologise for.,

BE advised, you signed up to abide by the rules, terms and conditions of this forum , or you would be unable to post, it would appear this has slipped your mind.

Perhaps you should read them/.



regards
Max
SOS forum moderator.

(I'm not unknown for being blunt either.... but there ARE limits, and the ideal of complete free speech is, in practice, an urban myth. )

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

would like to get back to the problem in hand; if there is anyone out there who is in the same position as us, would welcome any advice, comments on how you have gone about or are thinking about going about resolving the problem; comments from french studios or users particularly welcome; in french if you like

Given that the summons was apparently issued on a fallacious basis, I'd fight tooth and nail.....

While I'm in favour of developers sticking up for their rights, in this instance, I'm not keen on their methods , and where people HAVE a defensible case to argue, i think they should do so... after all, one supposes that if you win, you may be able to persuade the court to award you costs against the plaintiff , and perhaps punitive damages for wasting court time and your time... ??


it's worth at least looking in to with a serious intent.

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

but i'd concede that it's a bit of a scary "If" ....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

......To be clear: that's the civil law position. I also robustly and firmly believe that in the UK at least copyright theft is - er - theft, and a criminal offence.

The fact that the Crown Prosectuion Service seems reluctant or incapable of doing anything about it is a different debate. But the risk of a criminal conviction at least keeps this particular studio honest.

---

Good points. It is a criminal offence, and to be honest does it really matter which offence it is. As a matter of interest, generally people processed for this sort of thing, (usually dealt with by Trading Standards, FACT etc working with the Police) are charged with offences against the Copright, Design and Patents Act rather than the Theft Act. There are issues with whether it fits the description of 'Property' under the Theft Act.

The Crown Prosecution Service have a reasonably good record in prosecuting these types of offences, although compared to other offences they are relatively few. (And no I don't work for them) They don't do more because it's not a core Police responsibility, it's quite labour intensive, (FACT are not hugely staffed) it's also seen as not particularly victim heavy compared to other crimes. Most of all I would suggest, that there are an awful lot of other crime problems that are higher up on the priority list.

Oh FFS, Seriously Max, cease and desist notices on net forums. i guess it reflects to what extent we have had our cheeks parted and been well and truly rogered in lala land.

As for Waves strategies, i for one have had my mind made up by their tactics to take my business elsewhere. I would much prefer to see them spend their money on developing a more practical copy protection system (you know, like putting it together with some dedicated hardware, its not that revolutionary an idea ) At the price they charge, they could easily throw in a top notch control surface to unlock their plugins that would give serious tactile enjoyment. I just find the "we've caught you so buy it" attitude to reek of a Dingo's butthole. I think it would leave such a foul taste in your mouth that you would be loathed to use them....

But good to see that the music industry is still so supportive of big business' rights to make their living by screwing the plods over.

This is a moderated privately owned forum. open to the public.. subject to the terms and conditions.

read them.


other than that, i agree.... waves could have better ideas and policies.... I no longer use them myself... haven;t done for quite some time.... for all sorts of reasons... none of them political....

But i would point out that even Waves, do NOT qualify as "Big business"

it's just that kind of utter lack of reality interface that people like to hide behind when trying piteously to self justify theft of intellectual property.

The VAST majority of Developers are small businesses, and on the global "corporate" scale, TINY....

even comparative heavy weights in our , actually rather small industry, are bought and sold for what amounts to pocket change in corporate terms these days....

Emagic sold to apple? for about £16.5 million pounds.... (I recall the figure of 33 million dollars being mentioned)
Steinberg to Yamaha? was even less. so I hear... .

For a company with their track record and position in the industry, that figure ought perhaps to give some idea of how little a "big businmess" in our audio world is worth compared to the 10's or even 100's of BILLIONS that global corporations in other fields are valued at....

Like Apple with Emagic, AVID swallowed up M-audio without noticing...(fiscally at any rate)


There are developers out there going bankrupt on a weekly basis....

just who is getting bent over and shafted then?


As I've said before, I deplore the tactic, and would urge anyone unfairly clobbered with it to fight back... BUT the principle??

all in favour here.... I'd like to see the guys I know in the Music software , and sample/instrument development industry, actually be able to pay their mortgages from their software based income streams...

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

I agree with you Max.

And it is precisely and comprehensively because we are talking about cottage industry with a very limited potential consumer base that I believe Waves' strategy here is so demonstrably, pathetically, terminally wrong.

Nobody with any sort of musical soul beating in his heart could in all conscience buy any of their products, surely?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

More depressing than anything is the thought that the £7500 asking price is more than the total cost of my setup. (Very humble home studio, based around a couple of Yammy digi portastudios)!!

Probably won't be buying it, more for cost reasons tho!!

Quote Max!:

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But i would point out that even Waves, do NOT qualify as "Big business"

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Actually I wasn't referring to Waves, I was actually making a point about "privately owned and moderated (censored) forums" and before I get the cottage cheese again, prior to the internet bubble shite, SOS would easily qualify as big business on the net.

But please, don't let anything I have to say worry you. I understand that the world's first true socio-anarchic state (the net) has well and truly been invaded and conquered by the captains of capitalism.

Anyone else remember Winston Smith listening to the Proletarian woman singing a song written by robots and thinking that it sounded more beautiful than anything a machine could make? How prophetic.

And on that note my friends I bid you all adieu, my heart is no longer in this. Today I lay down my last guitar and I shall sing no more, for the world is no longer mine to sing to. It is time to pull on a cardigan and go plant some tomatoes.

BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Quote jacqueslacouth:

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Quote Max!:

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But i would point out that even Waves, do NOT qualify as "Big business"

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Actually I wasn't referring to Waves, I was actually making a point about "privately owned and moderated (censored) forums" and before I get the cottage cheese again, prior to the internet bubble shite, SOS would easily qualify as big business on the net.

But please, don't let anything I have to say worry you. I understand that the world's first true socio-anarchic state (the net) has well and truly been invaded and conquered by the captains of capitalism.

Anyone else remember Winston Smith listening to the Proletarian woman singing a song written by robots and thinking that it sounded more beautiful than anything a machine could make? How prophetic.

And on that note my friends I bid you all adieu, my heart is no longer in this. Today I lay down my last guitar and I shall sing no more, for the world is no longer mine to sing to. It is time to pull on a cardigan and go plant some tomatoes.

BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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Jacques gets my vote for "most grand forum exit" 2007!

I hope people read it and actually learn something though. He speaks good sense.

Waves have lost sight of their market. They don't seem to realize that todays music recording market is very different to that which they originally entered.
No longer dominated by large studios, the industry has changed alot, giving homestudio owners the ability to run anything a large studio can.

Some software companies have realized this, others have not. Some will survive, others should not...

The R&D cost is a one off cost for each version, just like for hardware. Manufacturing cost is negligable. This is unlike hardware units and should be reflected in the price of the products. Consumers know that and get annoyed if they feel they are being ripped off.

The key to getting people to pay for your product is having a quality product, good customer service and a decent upgrade policy. This is why Ableton and the Propellerheads seem to be doing ok. Their offers are always fair, and their copy protection mechanisms are lax enough that pirating their software is not very hard. A side effect is that after computer problems and re-installing (whether you have a legit version or not) all your stuff will work again. I had copied versions of their software. I now have legal versions. It's simple. They don't try to rip me off. I don't wan't to rip them off.

Enter Digidesign. Had it legal. Had to reinstall. Took a week to get everything running... I actually ended up using a cracked version because i had such problems with my legitimate version that I just said f*** that. How messed up is that? Having a proper serial nr. on my box and not using it because it was a hassle...
Then they made version 7. I hoped they would give decent ugrade deals, but no, not really. I wound up in bed with Ableton, turned out to be the prettiest girl at THAT dance. Oh, and digi hardware/software only works on some computer setups. Read through the compatibility lists to get a better idea. You have to know exactly which motherboard/CPU/chipset combo you have...
That's probably why they are the "industry leader"

Waves have to realize they are working a new market, with new market laws. If they price themselves ridiculously they will end up with an unsellable product. Their products are good, but not $7000 good.
And piracy is not equal to lost sales, neither in software nor music in general. Just ask Metallica who made their fame by distributing tapes of themselves. Or ask Radiohead. Or Propellerhead software. A download may lead to sales later. It all equals publicity.

Piracy is not equal to theft, either. Not according to law and not according to logic. Unless a correlation can be proven that a downloaded copy equals a lost sale AND that the artist (or copyright holder inc. more likely) is financially damaged by the download, then it is not theft. Sure, I'm just an amateur and only feel flattered if people download my stuff but we all have to realise that the market has changed, and we need to embrace it or abandon it. Fighting the change is not likely to work.
No musician wants their software so laced with copy protection mechanisms that it is unusable. Or have have calllouses on their sphincter from said softwares upgrade and/or pricing plans.
And no music lover wants their music crippled by horrible DRM that makes it work in someplaces on some devices sometimes.

And I am not saying piracy is right, but it is ubiquitous and here to stay. Business models need to adapt to reality, in pricing, distribution and service.

Quote jacqueslacouth:

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...But please, don't let anything I have to say worry you. I understand that the world's first true socio-anarchic state (the net) has well and truly been invaded and conquered by the captains of capitalism....

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Looks to me like you throw a tantrum whenever you don't get your way, but you try and dress it up with some trite "political" mutterings (and a fair amount of passive-agressive for good measure). Not to worry--the historical inevitability of the people's revolution will soon re-educate the running-dog capitalist elements like SOS magazine.

Edited by Mark Knutson (19/11/07 03:56 AM)

Quote Ari:

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Piracy is not equal to theft, either. Not according to law and not according to logic. Unless a correlation can be proven that a downloaded copy equals a lost sale AND that the artist (or copyright holder inc. more likely) is financially damaged by the download, then it is not theft.

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Ok. If I decide to buy a legitimate copy of the whole Waves bundle at £7500 and my friend decides to download the same bundle, cracked, for free - how does that not equal a lost sale? Forget about R&D costs, or whatever, at the very simplest level it constitutes theft. It is the electronic equivalent of walking into a shop, grabbing the software (in a box) shoving it in your coat and walking out. Just because the mechanics are different it doesn't alter the end result. You have acquired the software for free. If you dislike the price go buy something else. As has been said there is plenty of choice out there for alot loss money and of equal quality.

Edited by thenaturallevel (19/11/07 08:47 AM)

No, it isn't.

It's more akin to walking into a shop with your star trek replicator in your pocket, and saying "replicate that".
Why?
The company MAY(or may not) have lost a sale.
They did not, however lose an expensive package. Not the manufacturer and not the retailer.
Remember, if your product is good and priced according to quality then people who get it are in your likely customer pool. If it's not priced to sell, then that person was not a likely customer.
No property has been removed from them. That is how theft works.
Get annoyed over semantics all you want, but there is a reason for the language haveing words like copyright infringement, plagiarism and theft. They all mean something different.
The definition of "theft" is : the action of stealing.
The definition of "stealing" is (actually long but I'll take nr.1): 1[trans] take (abother person's property) without permission or legal rights and without intending to return it.

The legal system has more detailed definitions.

Remember, the media companies would call it stealing if they thought they could get away with it. Instead they refer to copyright infringement and "piracy" (I thought that would contain more raping, killing and pilfering...) which they made up to make it seem like a really serious crime.
Don't get me wrong, though. Ripping someones life work without him/her getting anything for it is not cool. There has to be easy access to fairly priced legal versions. If you're good, people will like it and buy it. People in general are pretty honest (even surprisingly so).
Remember a large study done recently by the culture ministry of Canada? It showed that the biggest music downloaders were also the biggest music purchasers. You're looking at the group that loves the stuff. DVD sales have risen every year, how come? More software companies sell more products than ever before.
As for video downloads, the only casualty I've seen is video rentals, which would have crashed anyway due to legal digital distribution models, just a few years later than they did. And anyway, the illegal distribution has pushed the legal distribution forward, forcing companies to see that they need t provide easy access to quality material, for a reasonable price.

Which is why I buy my software online. Companies such as Ableton and Propellerheads (and no, I don't work there, I just like their business practices) sell their products for a resonable price and give me easy access. If I go down to the local music store I see a price that is almost double what I pay online. Not because they're crazy, but because my country has a bunch of fun import duties, taxes and VAT on top of that. Then the retailer adds their fair share and, voila, there you have a lost sale. Ableton hasn't, though.

Anyways, remember you can be like Prince and be the laughing stock of the internet (and the world) or you can be like Radiohead and be the cool guys on the block (don't even particularly like them, but boy are they cool and have big veggie cojones)

Quote Ari:

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The definition of "theft" is : the action of stealing.
The definition of "stealing" is (actually long but I'll take nr.1): 1[trans] take (abother person's property) without permission or legal rights and without intending to return it.

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You're taking Waves property without their permission i.e. their Intellectual Property. Therefore, you are stealing it , ergo by your definition
theft. You're justification that it costs more than I believe I should pay for it, therefore, I will use it for free doesn't wash. Just don't use it - use something else.

Quote Ari:

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Remember, the media companies would call it stealing if they thought they could get away with it. Instead they refer to copyright infringement and "piracy" (I thought that would contain more raping, killing and pilfering...) which they made up to make it seem like a really serious crime.

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I don't think it's appropriate make to comparisions with rape or murder. This has nothing to do with violent crime.

Quote Ari:

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Don't get me wrong, though. Ripping someones life work without him/her getting anything for it is not cool. There has to be easy access to fairly priced legal versions. If you're good, people will like it and buy it. People in general are pretty honest (even surprisingly so).
Remember a large study done recently by the culture ministry of Canada? It showed that the biggest music downloaders were also the biggest music purchasers. You're looking at the group that loves the stuff. DVD sales have risen every year, how come? More software companies sell more products than ever before.

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What you're saying is because Waves choose to price their product out of your reach that gives you the right to use a cracked version?
The simple choice is don't use their product. As I said before there are plenty of alternatives, just as good, costing much less.

Quote Ari:

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Which is why I buy my software online. Companies such as Ableton and Propellerheads (and no, I don't work there, I just like their business practices) sell their products for a resonable price and give me easy access. If I go down to the local music store I see a price that is almost double what I pay online. Not because they're crazy, but because my country has a bunch of fun import duties, taxes and VAT on top of that. Then the retailer adds their fair share and, voila, there you have a lost sale. Ableton hasn't, though.

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Therefore, you have answered my argument. Purchase software that is reasonabled priced and that you can afford.
Don't use software illegally because you can't afford it or disagree with the price.

I know some people disagree with me, but have you actually read the posts in this thread?

It is theft.

I spent 30 years dealing with white collar crimes for a living, the last 6 of them at a boutique London law firm.

You're the one playing with "semantics", not the rest of the world.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Oh yes it is, oh no it isn't...
It's behind you!

Quote Ari:

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No, it isn't.

It's more akin to walking into a shop with your star trek replicator in your pocket, and saying "replicate that".
Why?
The company MAY(or may not) have lost a sale.
They did not, however lose an expensive package. Not the manufacturer and not the retailer.

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As i said before, it can only be considered theft by someone who actually understands the concept of intellectual property. You only seem to understand that of physical property.

The argument of not losing a sale so it makes it ok is completely retarded. Try stealing anything from a shop and try to tell the police that you never intended to buy it anyway so therefore the shop would never make any money out of it. And don't tell me that in that case the shop actually lost an item and the software developer didn't. The shop lost the cost of the item and their profit, like the seller of the software loses their profit also.