Quote hifistud2:

---

Look at the difference - it's $2892.05, or 1,426.13048 British pounds - and even if you ship it over at a cost of £500 (highly unlikely), you're still a grand into pocket.

Go figure.

---

Maybe they've got a warehouse of the things and are pricing them to sell and clear space? Who knows. The add says the list prices is 10299 and they are already offering a 10% discount.

You also need to be sure what accessories are included in the price. The meterbridge is an option, as are the side cheeks and interface cards. This may not be the case with the UK pricing -- some retailers are including these things (particualrly the meterbridge) as standard.

It is certainly a frightening price differential, I grant you, but we are still not in possession of all the facts. Are other US retailers selling the 02R96 for the same kind of price differential?

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote markhodges:

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A sort of 02R96 index?

Going on the prices from dv247 and sweetwater (and adding a made-up 10% sales tax to make it fairer ) the average wage here is about 3.25 02R96 p.a. wheras in the states it's closer to 3.7

---

Hmmm.. latest NAW for the USA I can find is $38,651.41
and latest UK at £23764, which gives

USA - 4.156 02R/annum and UK at 3.301 02R/annum - so, yes, they get it much cheaper!

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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It is certainly a frightening price differential, I grant you, but we are still not in possession of all the facts. Are other US retailers selling the 02R96 for the same kind of price differential?

Hugh

---

8th street music at $9999.00
Front end audio $9299.00 - as are Music 123 and cascio state...

In other words, looks like 8th street are a tad expensive - the going price seems to be 9299.00.

So the answer is yes, Hugh... there's that horrific price differential fairly uniformly.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote hifistud2:

---

Hmmm.. latest NAW for the USA I can find is $38,651.41
and latest UK at £23764, which gives

USA - 4.156 02R/annum and UK at 3.301 02R/annum - so, yes, they get it much cheaper!

---

We need to consider the taxes in both countries. AFAIK US business have to pay the sales tax (typically about 9%), whereas UK business can reclaim the VAT. This means that for a business (which is probably the target market for the 02R96) it works out almost exactly the same.

US = $9299 * 1.09 = $10135 = 3.8 per average pay packet
UK = £6126 ex vat = 3.8 per average pay packet

As a 'normal' consumer we are worse off becuase of the VAT, but if we buy an 01V96 instead we can have 16 a year as opposed to 14 in the US.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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That's fine, but in that saving you haven't costed the time spent organising it, or the cost of any phone calls (if there were any) or of the running costs of you internet provision, computer, office space, heat and light, and all the myriad of other things that a commercial business has to fund.

---

And that vthey have to fund no matter where they're buying from - as indeed, does an individual - these are incidental costs of any transaction.

Quote:

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As a one off personal import, yes, I'm sure the savings make it seem attractive. I don't think the same is true of someone running a business that way. If it were, then high street retailers up and down the land would be grey-important from the US all the time, and I don't think they are...

---

Maybe not now, but a great many car dealers have made a very lucrative business on grey imports - and the model is very easily transportable. Once UK retaillers cotton on to the fact that they can sell cehaper and still make a decent marginon grey imports, they'll very quickly adopt the model themselves - and if the Monopolies folks get wind of the price fixing that goes on, they'll get in on the act too.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote Robin Lemaire:

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I think maybe this thread should be moved to OT.

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Quote grahawk:

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Quote Robin Lemaire:

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I think maybe this thread should be moved to OT.

---

---

I can't think of anything more on-topic than the pricing strategies of MRT equipment!



hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

The one result of chasing the cheapest price above all else is the large number of fakes appearing all over the internet.



--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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You'll note that the majority of the developmetns I've listed above have come from the 'traditional' manufacturers you dismiss so quickly!

Hugh

---

And you selectively quoted me!

I made due allowance in my post for innovations in digital, surround and binaural - and am happy to concede there are other innovations.

I also know that most people here would kill to get a 1940s vintage U47 tube mic in good condition at a decent price, and in quality terms you won't find a whole lot of more modern, R&D-soaked stuff to touch it. You will get lower noise floors, often, but that's not always what you want: "character" counts too. Do we have to revisit Neumann's negligence in binning the KM84 in favour of the "better" (namely quieter, character-free) KM184 to prove the point?

I know R&D is not free. It's a shame it doesn't always result in a better product (but by then everyone up to the CEO has invested personal capital in the new baby and nobody dares say it's a lemon or they all look stupid).

Nor does it warrant charging £40 for a plastic moulded mic clip, or £250 for a wire basket and a couple of rubber bands. And as long as people think that sort of business practice is entertaining, I'll continue to rant about it all over the internet!

How many decades ago do you think it was that Neumann broke even on U87 shockmounts' R&D costs?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

To John W, Hugh etc who make the point that UK dealers/distributors have a higher cost base....

You say this as if that makes everything all right!

It doesn't. I don't care if the reason is EU employement law or local taxes or national taxes or what. The fact is that they are failing to compete in global terms.

As a buyer, I want to exercise my right to shop around. Not the two music shops in Banbury or the 12 in Denmark Street London W1 or whatever, but anywhere I choose.

If that means every single UK distributor and retail outlet goes bankrupt (which for the avoidance of doubt it does not), I will shed no tears whatsoever. Nobody has a "right" to be protected against competition. (In fact the EU has laws against it, and I've been wondering during this thread just how many of them might be routinely breached in this little industry of ours.)

It's a competitive market and I, personally, am globalised!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Sorry, i was under the impression you got upset when people didn't give you the support level you require.

Now, do you want to be able to get John Willet out tomorrow with spares or replacements, or do you want to wait 12 weeks for them to ship from germany to the US, and then back to the UK? AFTER you'ver already spent a week shipping your broken one to the US dealer?


just as an off the top of one's head example.

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

To John W, Hugh etc who make the point that UK dealers/distributors have a higher cost base....

You say this as if that makes everything all right!

It doesn't. I don't care if the reason is EU employement law or local taxes or national taxes or what. The fact is that they are failing to compete in global terms.

---

They may be failing to compete, however thats not quite the same as ripping people off, which seems to be the general accusation being levelled at them. The point of the "cost base" argument is that the reason for that failure isn't simple greed.

It would seem that, for whatever reasons, the UK retail industry just can't compete with US one on price in a lot of situaitons, a fact which holds true for an enormous range of goods.

Our car and steel industries responded to similar pressures by failing in the mass-market and succeeding in the niches, and I suspect the audio retail industry will go the same way. You'll have overseas box shifters, amazon and ebay shipping firewire interfaces and plastic controller keyboards to the masses and a few specialists handling big consoles and £4000 pre-amps that the box shifters won't touch.

Quote markhodges:

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We need to consider the taxes in both countries. AFAIK US business have to pay the sales tax (typically about 9%), whereas UK business can reclaim the VAT. This means that for a business (which is probably the target market for the 02R96) it works out almost exactly the same.

US = $9299 * 1.09 = $10135 = 3.8 per average pay packet
UK = £6126 ex vat = 3.8 per average pay packet

As a 'normal' consumer we are worse off becuase of the VAT, but if we buy an 01V96 instead we can have 16 a year as opposed to 14 in the US.

---

Over there, I beieve, they can reclaim when they do their tax returns - we get ours back at VAT return time...

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote hifistud2:

---

Quote markhodges:

---

We need to consider the taxes in both countries. AFAIK US business have to pay the sales tax (typically about 9%), whereas UK business can reclaim the VAT. This means that for a business (which is probably the target market for the 02R96) it works out almost exactly the same.

US = $9299 * 1.09 = $10135 = 3.8 per average pay packet
UK = £6126 ex vat = 3.8 per average pay packet

As a 'normal' consumer we are worse off becuase of the VAT, but if we buy an 01V96 instead we can have 16 a year as opposed to 14 in the US.

---

Over there, I beieve, they can reclaim when they do their tax returns - we get ours back at VAT return time...

---

I'm not convinced they can. I checked out the sales tax return for NY state and the only mention of reclaiming is to avoid double taxation. For example, if they buy something out of state and have paid sales tax there at a lower rate they claim back the tax they have already paid when they pay the higher rate local tax. But apart from that, it's all bad for them

http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/2008/st/st100i_308.pdf
http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/2008/st/st100_308.pdf

Edit: why am I reading american tax returns at 2am?

Edited by markhodges (11/12/07 02:12 AM)

Quote Max!:

---

Now, do you want to be able to get John Willet out tomorrow with spares or replacements, or do you want to wait 12 weeks for them to ship from germany to the US, and then back to the UK? AFTER you'ver already spent a week shipping your broken one to the US dealer?

---

Max, I've never tried to get John out in such circumstances (although I might make an exception in your case, as you know! )

You're in the business of providing paid-for studio support. That's my whole argument. If you want goods cheap, you have to accept that ongoing support is not free.

On the several occasions I've had Neumann/Sennheiser mics serviced or repaired, I've shipped (or taken them) to John's premises in High Wycombe and waited a week or two for the job to be done. I carry enough mics in the studio to ensure we function OK if one or two are out of service. If lack of a praticular item on a praticular day was a dealbreaker for a client, I'd hire - it would be here in a matter of hours.

I agree with Mark: the UK will (probably) have to surrender the mass market and compete at the boutique/premium end of the market, which is actually our strength (Neve, SSL, Cadac and all that stuff). You can make a similar argument for say F1 racing cars: with the exception of Ferrari virtually all the R&D and engineering is taking place within a few miles of you and me (including "French" Renault, "Japanese" Honda etc). We're good at that stuff. That does not mean Britain can, or should, have a competitive mass market offering for hatchbacks.

When a massive market realignment is taking place - and it is, despite a few of the King Canute persuasion round here - the end result is that markets usually end up doing what they do best and obtaining the rest in other markets.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Steve, My point, was that for there to be ANY direct manufacturer sponsored support, there must be a distribution operation of some sort on a local (Uk/Europe/Africa/US/Asia kind of local , not Gloucestershire kind of local) basis.

and in the truest sense of the words, it's NOT free..

you pay for it by means of allowing that support business to run at a moderate profit.

which means accepting costs incurred by all sorts of things, local government restrictions to business, like tax, VAT, import duty, the need to pay one's staff, a sensible living wage.... marketing costs, overheads of space required for storage and distribution of spares and transient stock and so on.

you may not have asked John to do something like that, but the point is that with UK based support, alongside distribution, it's possible to do so.

if everyone goes down the "googlenomics" route you espouse, that will cease, and a whole heap of other related things will too.

Certainly I'd no longer be able to give relevant advice on the basis that I'd heard stuff you haven't because I cannot afford to go to the US for 6 months a year just to hear everything... I rely on UK distributors, and in some cases, retailers, to keep me so well informed, by loaning me stuff, or by keeping me abreast of where I can pop in to try stuff when they're demoing it....

your model of the market precludes any of that.

and the same will apply to most of the other jobbing engineers in the UK... we ALL rely on local support and distribution contacts to be able to stay current.....


frankly, I'm shocked and appalled, especially given your experience and history, that it appears all you can currently see, is the "headline" bottom line.

and none of the fringe benefits, or territorial differentials in incurred costs as relevant.

and as for several people's complete disallowance of economies of scale factors.... what economics planet are some of you people on?? coz it aint this one.


World wide communications may be virtually instantaneous, but the physical reality is NOT.

and you have the Canute reference backwards.

Canute's point was the physical reality of the world ignored men's petty socio-economic & political hierarchy and structure.

as is the case here.

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

This is all very depressing.

As Steve says, the market is changing. I happen to disagree with him about whether allowing markets to go their natural way is a good thing. They are by nature completely amoral, chaotic (in the mathematical sense) and by and large they favour those with wealth/power at the expense of the rest. They will tend to favour the most efficient but will also lead to a dumming down of everything to suit the manistream. The weaker ones at the margins always suffer (but I'm not sure who they are in this case)

Whether there is anything we can do about is a moot point - (let's all form a fare trade campaign for the music business?).

J

Quote Setter:

---

Whether there is anything we can do about is a moot point - (let's all form a fare trade campaign for the music business?).

---

You could always set up a Gear Sluts Buyers Cooperative...

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TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME

Quote Max!:

---

you pay for it by means of allowing that support business to run at a moderate profit.

which means accepting costs incurred by all sorts of things, local government restrictions to business, like tax, VAT, import duty, the need to pay one's staff, a sensible living wage.... marketing costs, overheads of space required for storage and distribution of spares and transient stock and so on.

---

I don't think anyone has a problem accepting overheads - my business has overheads, some of which I can't control - VAT, corporation tax and and so on - and some I can - like location, rent, decor, wages and so on.

Yes, there's a need for a local presence if you want support - but when that local presence is "protected" (read price fixed) the end user suffers. That Yamaha seems to be fixing prices at what the market will bear rather than applying a fixed markup globally is what's getting everyone's goat.

I have no problem with paying a fair price for anything - if it's within my budget - but I do object to paying over the odds. When there's a £1500 differential between the price of a bit of kit here and in the US, I find it very difficult to believe the overheads justification - it smacks rather more of profiteering.

In my own business, the price is what it is - even though I could very easily charge more to certain classes of client, who are used to paying rather more for the services we provide. That incudes American bands!

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Okay then.... I think we've now been around this argument and covered every angle.

There are clearly two entrenched views -- each with their own merits -- and I doubt we will ever reach a unanimous agreement.

Shall we now draw this to a close before we risk entering O-T forum levels of animosity?

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote markhodges:

---

[
I'm not convinced they can. I checked out the sales tax return for NY state and the only mention of reclaiming is to avoid double taxation. For example, if they buy something out of state and have paid sales tax there at a lower rate they claim back the tax they have already paid when they pay the higher rate local tax. But apart from that, it's all bad for them

http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/2008/st/st100i_308.pdf
http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/2008/st/st100_308.pdf

Edit: why am I reading american tax returns at 2am?

---

Check out step 16 - if it's bought for business use, you can claim a credit for it.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Okay then.... I think we've now been around this argument and covered every angle.

There are clearly two entrenched views -- each with their own merits -- and I doubt we will ever reach a unanimous agreement.

Shall we now draw this to a close before we risk entering O-T forum levels of animosity?

Hugh

---

Actually, Hugh, I'm pleasantly surprised at how civil everyone's been - in other places a flame war would have erupted by now.

However, I reckon this is a topic that SOS could very easily and usefully cover - investigative journalism at its best, you might say. Some searches at Companies House would bear fruit, I'm sure.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote hifistud2:

---

Quote markhodges:

---

[
I'm not convinced they can. I checked out the sales tax return for NY state and the only mention of reclaiming is to avoid double taxation. For example, if they buy something out of state and have paid sales tax there at a lower rate they claim back the tax they have already paid when they pay the higher rate local tax. But apart from that, it's all bad for them

http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/2008/st/st100i_308.pdf
http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/2008/st/st100_308.pdf

Edit: why am I reading american tax returns at 2am?

---

Check out step 16 - if it's bought for business use, you can claim a credit for it.

---

The credits mentioned in that section are for previous overpayments or sales tax already paid in another jurisdiction. In step 9 they have to declare out-of-state purchases and pay the higher rate local tax on it, so the tax already paid is reclaimed in step 16 to avoid double taxing.

Edit: it's good to know that their tax system is nearly as barmy as ours

Edited by markhodges (11/12/07 11:31 AM)

Quote hifistud2:

---

Actually, Hugh, I'm pleasantly surprised at how civil everyone's been - in other places a flame war would have erupted by now.

---

I'm inclined to agree. It's been a very enlightening discussion with people on both sides of the fence making cogent arguments and none of the usual internet forum nastiness.

Quote markhodges:

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I'm inclined to agree. It's been a very enlightening discussion with people on both sides of the fence making cogent arguments and none of the usual internet forum nastiness.

---

Absolutely -- it's the way forums should always be. I think what we have seen is a great example of intelligent people making intelligent aruguments while always respecting the point of view of others. As you say, very educational and thought provoking.

But I do think we have now fully explored the subject adn from here on the positions can only become more entrenched, which probably isn't a good thing.

I also agree that it would make an interesting topic for some investigative journalism. Now if only we could find some journalists to do it...

I'll suggest it at the next planning meeting.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Now if only we could find some journalists to do it...
Hugh

---

<< cough >>

just a thought


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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Edited by hifistud2 (11/12/07 02:51 PM)

And now for something completely different.

What about products where there is no regionalised distribution and support, in particular for less physically tangible products such as software. And especially in particular where such software is sold direct - as a download from the manufacturers website?

Here such arguments about local support are moot. So, how is it (just for example) Adobe sell a piece of software for download from their website for $99 (£48) if you are based in the US, whereas if you are based in the UK it costs £83 ($178)?

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote Mahoobley:

---

Here such arguments about local support are moot. So, how is it (just for example) Adobe sell a piece of software for download from their website for $99 (£48) if you are based in the US, whereas if you are based in the UK it costs £83 ($178)?

---

I think you can guess what my feelings are....

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

never mind that, what about when it's actually MORE expensive to buy the download than to buy the Boxed product, shipped to your door, manuals and all.

and that's DIRECT from the Supplier-developer

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

All down to overheads, Max - has to be... What other explanation could there possibly be?

That they're greedy and taking advantage of the fact that somebody needs something now...?

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote Mahoobley:

---

And now for something completely different.

What about products where there is no regionalised distribution and support, in particular for less physically tangible products such as software. And especially in particular where such software is sold direct - as a download from the manufacturers website?

Here such arguments about local support are moot. So, how is it (just for example) Adobe sell a piece of software for download from their website for $99 (£48) if you are based in the US, whereas if you are based in the UK it costs £83 ($178)?

---

Where there really is no local operation I'd agree there is no reason for a price differential.

However in this example, Adobe do offer local support, also the UK price includes VAT, while the US one excludes sales taxes of typically 9-10%.

Quote Max!:

---

never mind that, what about when it's actually MORE expensive to buy the download than to buy the Boxed product, shipped to your door, manuals and all.

and that's DIRECT from the Supplier-developer

---

And as soon as it arrives the first thing you do is download the updates

Quote Max!:

---

never mind that, what about when it's actually MORE expensive to buy the download than to buy the Boxed product, shipped to your door, manuals and all.

and that's DIRECT from the Supplier-developer

---

That's usually down to high street price wars, which the supplier doesn't have to get involved with. This is why it all needs to be properly regulated.

I queried this with Sony Media a little while back as some stores were selling Soundforge cheaper than Sony's online store, PLUS the high street stores were giving away bundled plugins (Sony Plugins, that is), which Sony weren't. Sony were pretty firm on their online price and told me that they had no control over how much it was being sold for (and with) by their distributors.

Cheers,
Peter

--------------------
Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

... actually, I ordered a packaged version of Vegas 8 Pro, direct from Sony, not too long ago, rather than doing the usual online upgrade and when it arrived it came without a box. The 'package' only contained the box contents. The reason I ordered a packaged version was so I could line up the box with my other s/w in my studio.

However though, they have said I can order a box but would need to pay the shipping. I'm about to upgrade to SF9 so will request a box for both in the same consignment, at no extra charge.

It was only $10 more + Shipping for the packaged version, so wasn't too bad. This was direct from the US and when purchasing online, you ONLY have the option to buy from the US and, for some reason, they didn't charge me more for being a UK resident

P

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Mark, check out CS3.
the pricing at the point of origin, the developer, is cheaper for the boxed version delivered to your door, than the download version.


THAT's what I was referring to.... nothing to do with PC world and high street price wars.

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Conz:

---

It was only $10 more + Shipping for the packaged version, so wasn't too bad. This was direct from the US and when purchasing online, you ONLY have the option to buy from the US and, for some reason, they didn't charge me more for being a UK resident

P

---

This is probably because sony creative software is a US company. Technically you are liable for VAT as you've imported it. I queried this with HMRC a while ago, apparently if you had bought a download version no VAT is due as there is no physical movement of goods, but for physical media the standard 17.5% rate applies.

Quote markhodges:

---

Quote Conz:

---

It was only $10 more + Shipping for the packaged version, so wasn't too bad. This was direct from the US and when purchasing online, you ONLY have the option to buy from the US and, for some reason, they didn't charge me more for being a UK resident

P

---

This is probably because sony creative software is a US company. Technically you are liable for VAT as you've imported it. I queried this with HMRC a while ago, apparently if you had bought a download version no VAT is due as there is no physical movement of goods, but for physical media the standard 17.5% rate applies.

---

Are you 100% on this? I was charged local VAT when downloading upgrades from Sony at checkout, which is why I also decided I might as well get the packaged versions this time round.

P

--------------------
Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

... which brings me onto another question... When I purchased EWQLSO from Sounds Online Europe, I was charged 19% European Tax. Is this correct?

P

--------------------
Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote markhodges:

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This is probably because sony creative software is a US company.

---

So how come NI, who are a European company, charge me astronomically more for the same product in my country, than a distributor in the US?

Cheers,
Peter

--------------------
Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Max!:

---

Mark, check out CS3.
the pricing at the point of origin, the developer, is cheaper for the boxed version delivered to your door, than the download version.


THAT's what I was referring to.... nothing to do with PC world and high street price wars.

---

Agreed.

Last year I sat a course at the local Uni for Web Development and my tutor could not believe the price variances for Dreamweaver US/UK. He even complained to them asking repeatedly what justified the price variances.

They never responded to him and this is a Uni lecturer who bulk buys licences for the courses.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note