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Quote markhodges:

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It was only $10 more + Shipping for the packaged version, so wasn't too bad. This was direct from the US and when purchasing online, you ONLY have the option to buy from the US and, for some reason, they didn't charge me more for being a UK resident

P

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This is probably because sony creative software is a US company. Technically you are liable for VAT as you've imported it. I queried this with HMRC a while ago, apparently if you had bought a download version no VAT is due as there is no physical movement of goods, but for physical media the standard 17.5% rate applies.

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Are you 100% on this? I was charged local VAT when downloading upgrades from Sony at checkout, which is why I also decided I might as well get the packaged versions this time round.

P

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99.9%. I've bought a couple of things as downloads for work recently so I phoned HMRC to check and thats what they told me.

It's a bit confusing to say the least. VMWare, for example, collect VAT on a download sale unless you give them an EU VAT number. If they had charged VAT I could claim it back anyway, so I'm not sure exactly what the point is, other than keeping tax accountants in business.

Edit: I've done some more digging, apparently a physical medium is treated as "goods". Where there is no physical medium the software is treated as a service, and the collection or otherwise of VAT depends on the place of supply.

Edited by markhodges (12/12/07 01:34 PM)

Zuke, that's less to do with regional variances, more to do with how manufacturers in general see the education sector - as a cash cow. I once spoke to some guys running the Ealing studios of TVU and found that they were paying RRP less a small amount for a certain brand of DAW hardware/software when the price on the street was a fraction of the RRP. And they couldn't nip out and just pay cash down the local DV - they'd checked and found that they were locked in to that pricing structure!

Bogus

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

I hear you pal, but I am not talking about student pricing.

If you go to Adobe's website and check the pricing for CS3 and then check their US site for the same, you sill see how scary it is.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote mahoobley:

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Here such arguments about local support are moot. So, how is it (just for example) Adobe sell a piece of software for download from their website for $99 (£48) if you are based in the US, whereas if you are based in the UK it costs £83 ($178)?

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Quote Max!:

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never mind that, what about when it's actually MORE expensive to buy the download than to buy the Boxed product, shipped to your door, manuals and all.

and that's DIRECT from the Supplier-developer

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The boxed version costs £81

Absolutely f***ing absurd.

I recall there was a massive uproar amongst the 'creative community' when Adobe CS3 came out, and plans for a boycott. Not sure how that worked out

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http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote Mahoobley:

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I recall there was a massive uproar amongst the 'creative community' when Adobe CS3 came out, and plans for a boycott. Not sure how that worked out

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Probably the same as when the UK talked about boycotting petrol stations. All talk, little action. That was an absolute let down, that was. Massive hype, shite all done and the prices are still climbing

P

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote markhodges:

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Quote markhodges:

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Quote Conz:

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It was only $10 more + Shipping for the packaged version, so wasn't too bad. This was direct from the US and when purchasing online, you ONLY have the option to buy from the US and, for some reason, they didn't charge me more for being a UK resident

P

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This is probably because sony creative software is a US company. Technically you are liable for VAT as you've imported it. I queried this with HMRC a while ago, apparently if you had bought a download version no VAT is due as there is no physical movement of goods, but for physical media the standard 17.5% rate applies.

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Are you 100% on this? I was charged local VAT when downloading upgrades from Sony at checkout, which is why I also decided I might as well get the packaged versions this time round.

P

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99.9%. I've bought a couple of things as downloads for work recently so I phoned HMRC to check and thats what they told me.

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OK, here's the other 0.1%. I knew it was too good to be true.

For a consumer, the reason no *extra* VAT is due on a download (as it would be on a box bought from sweetwater) is because the seller, even a US based one, has to register for and charge VAT.

If you are a business with a VAT number, the seller doesn't need to charge you VAT and no VAT or duty is due on the "import", you do however need to employ some barmy accounting scheme whereby you charge yourself the VAT and claim it back resulting in a net payment of nothing.

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... which brings me onto another question... When I purchased EWQLSO from Sounds Online Europe, I was charged 19% European Tax. Is this correct?

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Yes, you pay the VAT of the country of origin, normally.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I'm fast coming to the conclusion that this thread ought to be made required reading for vendors the world over. It's becoming increasingly obvious that a large chunk of the MRT community is, if not price sensitive, sensitive to all too obvious price differentials and seemingly nonsensical pricing structures.

I'd certainly like to see representatives from the likes of Adobe and Yamaha come here and comment on what they read - and even though Steve Parker of Arbiter has shown his face (so to speak) there are still questions unanswered that I feel he could address.

The point made re how VAT works with regard to media/downloads is interesting, though. It's yet another hook for vendors to hang their corporate hats on - because if we, as the consumers, are baffled by it, any old BS by way of "explanation" of price differentials will suffice - or so it would seem they think.

But any company crass enough to charge different prices for a download in diffrerent territories is asking for a kicking - and to come up with an explanation for them being more expensive than their high-street sellers that's as crass as the one being offered earlier is just crazy.

I can see the point of fixing your online price at RRP - that way you can't be accused of stealing business from dealers - effectively guiding customers gently towards the dealer network. But to expect anyone googling for prices not to check out all of your top level domains is being naiive in the extreme. Which, in its own way, is kinda worrying - if they haven't worked that out, just how bug-free is their software?!?!?! :-)

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote John Willett:

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... which brings me onto another question... When I purchased EWQLSO from Sounds Online Europe, I was charged 19% European Tax. Is this correct?

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Yes, you pay the VAT of the country of origin, normally.

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Hi John,

Hmmm, this isn't the case for THOMANN, who are based in Germany. The bottom of this link clearly states 17.5% British Tax and, to be honest, the 19% VAT charge recently is the first time I have came across this during a purchase made within Europe.

Although you do say "normally". Maybe I've just been lucky to have been charged at UK VAT, if you can ironically call this lucky.

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Conz:

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Quote John Willett:

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Yes, you pay the VAT of the country of origin, normally.

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Hmmm, this isn't the case for THOMANN, who are based in Germany.

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I think there was a test case recently - I know about Thomann - it may be that as they have different departments selling to different European countries their VAT office allows VAT of the country of destination.

I have certainly paid VAT country od origin several times.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Can I just throw into the mix instances where I have been left dangling by major name manufacturers (who are still in business, in a big way), who have "moved on" and discontinued support for, well, me - and anyone else who has not been similarly motivated to trash an existing significant investment and "move on" at the same time as they did?

Apple dumping Logic PC users is clearly a classic. We can also talk about Roger Nicholls' takeover of Elemental Audio and his "imaginative" overnight price hikes with no notice, or Mackie's contemptible treatment of d8b users, in their hell-in-a-handcart enthusiasm to launch the hopelessly doomed dXb. And we can all think of more such examples, such as owners of "old" Joe Meek gear being told they are not the responsibility of the current owners of the brand name....

Someone please tell me what these expensively maintained support networks in different jurisdictions are for, if they don't want to know you when you really need them?

What additional trust do I gain from paying over the odds against that sort of background?

When they want to shaft me, they will. All of them.

Edited by Steve Hill (12/12/07 07:14 PM)

I think that within the EU it depends on whether the company your buying from has registered for VAT in the UK or not. You can see why e.g. thomann would do this to allow them to offer a lower price.

It's different again for a business.

I should have been an accountant

Quote Steve Hill:

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Can I just throw into the mix instances where I have been left dangling by major name manufacturers (who are still in business, in a big way), who have "moved on" and discontinued support for, well, me - and anyone else who has not been similarly motivated to trash an existing significant investment and "move on" at the same time as they did?

Apple dumping Logic PC users is clearly a classic. We can also talk about Roger Nicholls' takeover of Elemental Audio and his "imaginative" overnight price hikes with no notice, or Mackie's contemptible treatment of d8b users, in their hell-in-a-handcart enthusiasm to launch the hopelessly doomed dXb. And we can all think of more such examples, such as owners of "old" Joe Meek gear being told they are not the responsibility of the current owners of the brand name....

Someone please tell me what these expensively maintained support networks in different jurisdictions are for, if they don't want to know you when you really need them?

What additional trust do I gain from paying over the odds against that sort of background?

When they want to shaft me, they will. All of them.

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Yep, agreed... Not quite as dramatic as some instances, but:

Cubase SX 3.1, which is clearly an unfinished product has been discontinued (although we were promised of an upgrade to iron out major bugs and finish off 'features' that weren't quite working as advertised), the Midex 8 (of which I have 2) is discontinued (i.e. no 64 bit drivers, which would've seen this hardware through for many years to come) and I recall owners of Houston being especially narked about what they believed to be a long-term investment. Steinberg have a knack of doing this, time and time again.

The life cycle of a product is becoming smaller and smaller.

Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

QUICK UPDATE - Ref: Purchases Outside UK Territory

I just received my Kore 1 and Komplete 5 Bundle (from the US) and just got it installed last night.

I had problems activating Komplete 5 (Kore activated fine) and started to get concnerned as it's been stated the extra UK costs are partially to do with Support, which I understood I don't get for buying outside of the UK, only getting support from where I bought the goods. Thinking I was stuffed, I called NI (Berlin) direct, using their Registration Support telephone number and crossed my fingers... ... ...

My problem was solved in under 1 minute. Gave my serial number, registration details, they typed it in and bingo... all was activated.

It was just one of them minor hickups why it didn't do it using the Service Centre, but we're passsed that now and I now realise I can rely on NI (either by phone or using their email Ticket Number support) regardless where I purchased my goods. Their level of professionalism was superb and the guy I spoke to was top notch. A pleasure to deal with!!!

Oh, and how much did I save, in total buying from the US I hear you ask? >>> a tad under £200 (Import Tax, Duty and US Shipping by UPS all taken into account) for EXACTLY the same outfit from the cheapest I could find here.

It is a shame we have to shop elsewhere, but I am not prepared to pay such excess amount for exactly the same goods AND service elsewhere!

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Conz:

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It was just one of them minor hickups why it didn't do it using the Service Centre, but we're passsed that now and I now realise I can rely on NI (either by phone or using their email Ticket Number support) regardless where I purchased my goods. Their level of professionalism was superb and the guy I spoke to was top notch. A pleasure to deal with!!!

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Their phone support is very good and the only way to go. It takes about 2 weeks to get a reply to an email so phone is really the only option if you're in trouble.

Hi Peter (Conz) - just a quick one regarding the price on the Kore 1 and Komplete bundle you purchased from the US - it's available in the UK at the moment for £599 so are you saying you bought it for around £399?

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group

Edited by Stephen Parker (19/12/07 04:53 PM)

Hi Stephen,

I bought Komplete 5 + Kore 1 (FREE upgrade to Kore 2) for $899 + $150 for shipping, tax and duty. So, all in all, $1049 USD (which is approx £525). This is £175 cheaper than any UK supplier could sell it to me for when I ordered and I tried just about everywhere I could think of.

Digital Village had Komplete 4 + Kore 1 (free upgrade to K5) for £599, which is what I was originally wanting, but they wouldn't accept AmEx (hence start of this thread). Others, who were doing it for the same price as DV, that accepted AmEx had no stock of the K4 Bundle.

Again though, I could get K4 + K1 for approximately the same saving in the US.

Cheers,
Peter

p.s. Just done a quick scan on DV's site and I see they're doing a Bundle (that equals the same goodies as K5) for £599 with Kore. Unfortunately, this deal is about 2 weeks too late for my custom and I've still saved nearly £100 (if we take P&P into consideration) on this new offer. Getting better though, just a shame this deal wan't offered earlier as I might have been more tempted, assuming they took AmEx of course, but that's another story.

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Thanks Peter - I just wanted to make sure we weren't miles off with the pricing.

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group

Quote Stephen Parker:

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Thanks Peter - I just wanted to make sure we weren't miles off with the pricing.

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group

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Hi Stephen, it's not that far off now... Looking a lot better and certainly more tempting to me, who's a typical tight northern git

Out of curiousity, when did this deal become available?

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Conz:

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Quote Stephen Parker:

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Thanks Peter - I just wanted to make sure we weren't miles off with the pricing.

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group

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Hi Stephen, it's not that far off now... Looking a lot better and certainly more tempting to me, who's a typical tight northern git

Out of curiousity, when did this deal become available?

Cheers,
Peter

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I bought mine from DV for 599 I think about 6 weeks ago. Very happy with it, great deal for a ridiculous amount of very good sounds.

I think DV have been offering the Kore 1 & Komp 4 deal for a good few months (you get the free updates on registering to Kore 2 software and Komp 5). They ran out of Komp 4 Upgrades a little while ago (I think) so they bought Komp 5 upgrades instead and I think their description changed recently.

Kore 1's are almost all gone now..

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group

Eitehr way, it's a GREAT product. I bought Komplete 2 for a games company I worked for a few years ago. Loved it then as I love K5 now. Not dabbled too much with Kore just yet, but I'm hearing positive vibes about it. Build quality is awesome. TBH, I was expecting tacky plastic, but it's rock solid.

Right... Next... I want to order Cubase C4.1 upgrade (from SX3)

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Conz:

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Eitehr way, it's a GREAT product. I bought Komplete 2 for a games company I worked for a few years ago. Loved it then as I love K5 now. Not dabbled too much with Kore just yet, but I'm hearing positive vibes about it. Build quality is awesome. TBH, I was expecting tacky plastic, but it's rock solid.

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Do give it ago, but don't bother with Kore 1 software go straight to Kore 2. Once you get used to just browsing your sound search results using Kore, you won't go back to using a mouse. I have mine sitting on top of my Fusion 8HD and I love it. Also great to control effects.

Also, if you like Hammonds, get the free 57 organ Kore soundpack. It's very good.

Great package, even with the problems it sometimes causes (Kore crashing and not restarting again, etc) I still can't speak enough good things about it!

Make sure you get all the updates also, there's quite a few...

Quote Nuno_:

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Quote Conz:

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Eitehr way, it's a GREAT product. I bought Komplete 2 for a games company I worked for a few years ago. Loved it then as I love K5 now. Not dabbled too much with Kore just yet, but I'm hearing positive vibes about it. Build quality is awesome. TBH, I was expecting tacky plastic, but it's rock solid.

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Do give it ago, but don't bother with Kore 1 software go straight to Kore 2. Once you get used to just browsing your sound search results using Kore, you won't go back to using a mouse. I have mine sitting on top of my Fusion 8HD and I love it. Also great to control effects.

Also, if you like Hammonds, get the free 57 organ Kore soundpack. It's very good.

Great package, even with the problems it sometimes causes (Kore crashing and not restarting again, etc) I still can't speak enough good things about it!

Make sure you get all the updates also, there's quite a few...

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Hi Nuno_,

I've not yet got the Kore 2 upgrade, probably after the New Year now, NI say, with the holidays n that. I did all the other updates earlier, so s/w wise I'm bang up to date

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Stephen Parker:

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Thanks Peter - I just wanted to make sure we weren't miles off with the pricing.

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group

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Grrrrrrrrrrr... you don't take Amex either! I just called to order a Cubase 4 upgrade

Damn! Looks like Thomann is my best bet this time round.

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com