Hi, all!

I've read all the posts and, being dumbass, I don't understand what you have to do. Do you just submit a track and list all the instruments you used to make it with?

Are you allowed to use sampler programs like Reason to make your track with or does it have to be real instruments?

As far as storing the tracks - why not Rapidshare? They host files for free - just shove 'em up there as .rars and list the download addys. You can do the same thing with Megaupload, Boxfile does it but has a dead tight file size limit and there's one or two others.

Yours with respect

ulrichburke

Hokay, I understand what's going on now! So ignore my last post apart from the Rapidshare/Megaupload bit, they're good storage sites.

Do you ever do competitions for people who use samples because they can't afford to spend hundreds on real instruments and even more on learning to play them?

Yours hopefully

ulrichburke

Quote SunShineState:

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you surely can't change the goalposts now - some of us have spent weeks on this and I'm seriously dying to hear other peoples versions of this great song!

Isn't it the case that if it's not for commercial gain then you dont have to pay a fee as long as you declare it to the relevant bodies?

cheers SSS

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hmmm .. I dont think so mate.

"Copy" right. Geddit ?

You may not have to pay a fee, depends on you negotiating skills, really (like they better be amazing, I'd have thought). I seriously doubt its a case of simply "declaring" anything.
(especially for an official compo' re-recording a Beatles track :-/)


Otherwise - whats to stop me doing a sh*thot remix of a major major tune from the past - & distributing for free (over the net say) securing 100,000 downloads and boosting my profile no end ?!

- maybe you'll be OK so long as no-one hears, but the judges ? -and maybe other competitors ?



Edited by blue manga (30/01/08 03:17 PM)

As I understand it, we would each own the copyright in our own physical recording and therefore be free to post it. The issue is the licensing of the cover of the Lennon/McCartney song which would be subject to the appropriate declaration and fee for PRS and possibly MCPS. This fee would be no more onerous for a L/M song than any other, but of course all this has to be completely above board and legit to be associated with a reputable mag like SoS - is anyone looking into what is required in terms of licensing, rather than just righting this off in a panic??

As a matter of interest mags like Guitarist regularly publish CDs with covers of well known songs to learn /play along to - so its obviously not an insurmountable problem - or is it??

Cheers

Quote SunShineState:

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As a matter of interest mags like Guitarist regularly publish CDs with covers of well known songs to learn /play along to - so its obviously not an insurmountable problem - or is it??

Cheers

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I'm pretty sure its an issue with them, I remember reading in a certain guitar mag that a G'n'R song needed arranging with their lawyers before they could transcribe it

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.

Sorry, haven't checked in on this one recently...

Have we sorted out the rules yet?

My trusty old Samson S11's starting to droop.....

Just a heads up for the legal side of things. Soundclick.com even has a cover song genre now.. Surely there's some way around the legalities.

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MYSPACE | MY NEW BAND SPACE

if Soundclick.com has a covers section why dont we all just post our entries there? Maybe its mp3 only but i guess that would be better than nothing?

The soundclick website says

Licensing of digital cover songs is an evolving issue. So all guidelines below are based on our best understanding of the current copyright law and is subject to change. Please note that our 'music submission agreement' requires you to take care of all required copyrights clearance and payments.
Having said that, cover songs can be posted legally. To post cover songs online you must agree to pay statutory royalty rates to the publisher of the original song.

An exception to this rule are songs in the Public Domain which don't require any royalty payments.

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Madman_Greg

The copyright issue is a stickler, and a bit of a bug-a-boo, and I am not sure why I didn't think about that sooner.

Also, are there going to be any issues of U.K. copyright vs. International copyright? I have no idea really. Since it is a U.K.-based publication, would it need to be cleared in the U.K. only, or does it need clearance in any contributor's home country as well?

These types of things are well beyond my level of expertise, but I think it is not too difficult to get the mechanical copyrights to a song if you release it on an album. You just need to pay per copy sold, and in the U.S. that is through the Harry Fox Agency (HarryFox.com). I have no idea where to begin in England, or anywhere else in the world.

The Harry Fox Agency has "Come Together" as one of its registered songs (C56400), and has a license program where you pay a small fee (US$15), plus 9.1 cents per song for between 25 and 2,500 copies.

So for 50 users, the cost would be about US$20.55 (a mere pittance) *if* they would consider each entry as a "copy". I doubt that however, and I think each entry is a unique entity that would have to be licensed separately. This fee would grant a mechanical license, which is for when you are planning on selling a version of the song on a CD. I have no idea if that covers our little contest idea, or even if *anything* is required in our case. If *everybody* in the contest needs an individual mechanical license, the cost would be US$17.27 for *each* contestant (that is for the 25 unit minimum at 9.1 cents, plus the $15 fee).

Once again, this is for the US only as far as I can tell!

I have no idea if this is even the correct type of license that would be required in this situation!

As you can see, I am sooooo far from an expert here, and I am probably not the one to do the research, especially since I am U.S.-based, and the magazine is published in England.

Is there anyone that is UK-based that is willing to take this on as a project (the research, I mean)?

Please let us know!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I think I may have the answer.

I got this from the PRS website. These are the people that deal with major UK artists and bands and indie bands such as mine. Basically these people are the experts and know more than any of us.

Below is a piece of text from their introduction in copyright.

Fair Dealing
Fair Dealing
The fair dealing exceptions are fairly limited and exist for the purposes of:
•
Non-commercial research and private study
•
Criticism and review
•
Reporting current events
Fair dealing acts differ from other exceptions to copyright in that these involve an assessment as to whether the dealing is fair.


I have always been under the impression that if you are not using a cover song to gain money then you are not infringing any rights.

Wouldn;t this exercise be for "Non-commercial research and private study" None of us would actaully make any money out of it and as long as SOS don't print web links in the mag to any actual audio then their write up would be for "Criticism and review", which is teh whole point of SOS.. is it not?


Here's the link to the full artical and website:

web page

web page

I hope this helps to clear up this matter. If the contest is to continue, please could we have an extended closing date because this copyright issue has thrown things a bit.

Take it easy

Paul

Just to add to my last post, here is another statement from the same website
_________________________________________________________
What if you are using your own recording?

If you have made your own recording of an existing musical composition, better known as a 'cover version', you are the sound recording owner and will only need to obtain an MCPS licence for any physical products you produce.
__________________________________________________________

An mp3 being submited for review is not a physical product and if it not for sale then technically it is not a product.

While I'm here, how about submitting entires as 320kps mp3's?

I know someone will have a pop at me that it's not as good quality as a wav. but if everyone submits their work like that then does it really make a difference???

Thanks for that research Paulos! Hopefully somebody can look into it, and get us an official response.

As far as WAV vs. MP3: We have already crossed this bridge. Since this is a "quality" contest rather than a composition contest, musical quality is of the utmost importance, and therefore it would be preferable that no compression of the final product take place.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

so is this going to happen now, will you and Zuk discuss the research with the mag and get approval? there seems to be lots of support for this and it will make a very interesting feature for the mag I think cheers

I emailed the people at the PRS / MCPS alliance on Monday outlining what we want to do and ask for clarification but have received no response so far.

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Madman_Greg

Quote Madman_Greg:

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I emailed the people at the PRS / MCPS alliance on Monday outlining what we want to do and ask for clarification but have received no response so far.

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I am already dealing directly with MCPS re this matter.

Thnx for trying.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Just to update you all:

I have contacted MCPS/PRS on behalf of Sos and DH and am awaiting their response.

I must say that this will take time and could be fruitless as the Beatles catalogue and rights are fiercely protected.

However, I might be pleasantly surprised, but without iron clad approval at no cost to Sos I cannot allow the content to be used in any shape or form.

I suggest, as I have to DH, and as a contingency back up, that you all consider using public domain material that has no protection and with available rights.
I leave this in the capable hands of DH.

An example of this might be recordings of a song from a member here etc..

This contest will be backed by Sos with prizes awarded to the winner/s so it is imperative that Sos' public profile is protected with all integrity.

This began as a forum suggestion and Ian took it onto himself selflessly to help make it both enjoyable and a little more 'weighty'. So we need to take this into account when dealing with content used etc.

We (moderators) have also discussed this at length and will probably form a small panel to judge the contest.

In light of enhancing community spirit I suggest that you all dialogue with DH via PMs so that I can then deal with one person directly with any queries raised.

Thank you

Zukan
Sos moderator

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Only prob I have with all that was that the contest was supposed to start in Jan and end at the end of Jan and I for one have already spent a lot of time finishing a recording of Come Together. Added to this this is a great song (and a great original recording) which everyone recognises, so it makes it much more meaningful judging peoples efforts against that - with all due respect to the members here I think recording an unknown song would greatly demean the competition, and if the original recording is not as good as Come Together (which is frankly doubtful to say the least) then there is no great benchmark to try to emulate!

Added to this the members song itself is subject to exactly the same copyright issues as a Beatles song!

We are not talking about piracy or sculduggery here but a bone fide licensed cover of a Beatles song - I'm sure this is not difficult or expensive for the mag to obtain cover for (and that's a challenge! ) as I've said above Guitarist mag regularly publishes a CD with covers of hit songs to play along to - surely SoS doesn't consider itself inferior to that publication!!

I produced a CD of well know high profile cover songs with my band a couple of years ago and getting the license agred with MCPS/PRS was straight forward and very cheap.

Come on guys - let's have no more talk about throwing the towell in and do what ever is necessary to make this great competition idea happen!! what do the rest of you entrants think??

As a back up track, could we not consider some old jazz standard that will be out of copyright now?

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Jazz whats that??? If you choose an old Jazz song I think you would get a very different subset of entrants from the ones that were attracted to doing Come Together! See my point above I believe there is absolutely no reason to back track on the original idea!! cheers

Quote Dave B:

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As a back up track, could we not consider some old jazz standard that will be out of copyright now?

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I really like that idea!!!

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[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

Quote Tootsweet:

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Quote Dave B:

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As a back up track, could we not consider some old jazz standard that will be out of copyright now?

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I really like that idea!!!

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Why not? Your finished result doesn't have to be jazz, it could be of any genre. Come together, which I suspect those who've already completed, have probably put their own style and genre to the song. There have been many jazz and country songs that have been updated and recorded as rock or pop, for example.

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Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

I would humbly suggest that we give the due process a chance to work before we "throw in the towel" as SSS suggests.

I also like the idea of doing a song that is recognizable by all rather than a member's original song, but I think if we are backed into a legal corner, then we can step back and look at "Plan B" and see what other options are available.

Thanks to everyone for their hard work on this, and to those of you who are anxiously waiting to submit their masterpieces, thanks for being patient!

We will get there, somehow!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

thats the spirit! I'm sure we can get there, the old jazz song can be the NEXT competition! cheers

(or what about blues???)

If we cannot get this sorted then something like a orginal 12 bar would be the obvious way to go (or something that is out of copyright blues wise).

I have not started yet so this delay is good for me. Had to order a guitar combo to comply with the miking requirement. Lets just say what should have arrived 2 weeks ago, has not...

I got a little marshall stack for christmas.

I think the drumkit for my birthday is a no go though

Quote Madman_Greg:

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If we cannot get this sorted then something like a orginal 12 bar would be the obvious way to go (or something that is out of copyright blues wise).

---

That is actually a pretty good idea... Some old blues standby that folks could have some fun putting their own spin on would be a cool idea... "Hoochie Kootchie Man" or something similar, for example, or even some old early rock I-IV-V song like "Maybelene".

I LIKE IT!!! Smart man you are Greg! This would give us the recognizability that we need, the ease of playing, and a chance to go deep into our skills to produce a very basic recording to convey our ideas.

If things fall through with the Beatles thing, I think Greg has something here...

What do you all think?

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Yes, good idea.

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Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

sounds good!

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I'm a student. Don't listen...

Unfortuately you will find a lot of old blue songs have had their copyright renewed over the years.

for example

Hoochie Coochie music By willie dixon, Copyright 1967 (renewed bmi)

especially where the old blues tunes have become popular, its going to be difficult to find something that people know as its probably been renewed if it is well known.

hence my suggestion of an original blues track

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Madman_Greg

Quote Paulos13:

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Just to add to my last post, here is another statement from the same website
_________________________________________________________
What if you are using your own recording?

If you have made your own recording of an existing musical composition, better known as a 'cover version', you are the sound recording owner and will only need to obtain an MCPS licence for any physical products you produce.
__________________________________________________________

An mp3 being submited for review is not a physical product and if it not for sale then technically it is not a product.

While I'm here, how about submitting entires as 320kps mp3's?

I know someone will have a pop at me that it's not as good quality as a wav. but if everyone submits their work like that then does it really make a difference???

---

if this copyright thing is such a problem and the competition is for technique rather than content why don't we just right our own songs based on a theme chosen by the organisers ie: blue cheese blues/ etc etc couple of verses chorus and a bit in the middle , got to be more fun t4tea

I've had a thought that may help, i'm not sure if it helps with tying into the mag atall.

But there a about brazillion cover versions on YouTube. I don't know if they are paying a blanket fee to the collections agencies or what? It's a pity our advisor on such matters isnt around.

But it would seen like a sinmple place to whack up a load of tunes. Even if they arent on a moving vid,it's not rocket science to slap your track on a pic and upload it, perhaps a single participant could open an account and then upload all the submissions...

Good fun too!

As a lot of people have already started or finished like...

Quote ==:

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It's a pity our advisor on such matters isnt around.

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- well u know where 2 find him !

Quote ==:

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But it would seen like a sinmple place to whack up a load of tunes. Even if they arent on a moving vid,it's not rocket science to slap your track on a pic and upload it, perhaps a single participant could open an account and then upload all the submissions...

Good fun too!

As a lot of people have already started or finished like...

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I'm not in the compo but I might aswell say it before anyone else does - it's about recording quality and fidelity etc, not something thats easily judged via a compressed youtube stream. Other than that, nice idea.

I'm not really using any more unpaid studio time for another choon!

whats going off then chaps? DH can you PM or email me the 'status'....

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www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

'Ok, current update re the 'Come Together' track by the Beatles:

I have spoken and had email dialogue with MCPS/PRS and this track seems to be a dead duck for a number of reasons, cost being the primary one and sheer obstacles to overcome being the other.

Additionally, we have to liaise between the Phonographic Performance Ltd, MCPS licencing dept and PRS (you'd think one body would handle these 2 entities huh?).

We would also have to have each and every entrant submit a licensing form.

It is both not commercially viable and a real bureaucratic hassle for a simple competition like this.

I suggest sourcing public domain material that is not licensed in such an iron clad nature, or member material that some have suggested. The Jazz suggestion also seems to be fine but we would have to investigate any restrictions there too.

Please dialogue with DH and I will try to help as much as I can in getting this off and running.'

Zukan
Sos moderator

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

This is a real bummer for those of us who've spent the time and already finished a recording of Come Together!

Couldn't we email, (or even post on CDR) an entry direct to the judge - surely an exchange of not for profit recordings between two people would not need licensing??

Anyways If anyone would like to hear my effort please PM me.

Cheers SSS

Well, I am pretty bummed out that we have to drop "Come Together" from the competition, but as I always say, "It is what it is".

So now, how do we want to proceed as a group? I think I have heard 3 options presented:

1) 12-bar blues or any I-IV-V R&R standard
2) Old jazz standard
3) User's original composition

(Did I miss something else?)

If we pick anything that is an official composition (such as "Hoochie Coochie Man") we are going to have face the same copyright hurdle that we faced with "Come Together.


SSS = I want to hear a copy of what you have done! Send it my way for sure!!!



I vote for Option #1

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

James, I've PM'd u the url cheers

Edited by SunShineState (10/02/08 08:10 PM)

Quote Doublehelix:

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I vote for Option #1

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Amen to that. Shame we had to drop the beatles, was well looking forward to it

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I'm a student. Don't listen...

ok I'm out people!

I have emailed you what I had done tho DH. helix studio email add.

Thanks

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www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Edited by fakiekid (11/02/08 12:01 AM)