Slightly off topic.... so apologies... However, i'd love top know how Howlett got that Bass sound on the Gong "You" album...

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nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

Quote Stevedog:

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Slightly off topic.... so apologies... However, i'd love top know how Howlett got that Bass sound on the Gong "You" album...

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I'd like to know too - but it wouldn't surprise me if Mr Howletts sound was 99% due to technique. P Bass, flatwound strings, finger picked & DI'd I'm guessing.

Jim

You know I recently forgave Collins.
I cut my hair after ten years and smartened up in the eighties as well, and I honestly like cheap pop as much as prog rock - artists dont have to take you with them I guess.
Also, I saw a clip of them doing Abacab on youtube, and even that 'low' would shame most of todays A bands.

Anyone who contributed to those fantastic set of albums up to ...Three / Duke (choose your own drop of point) can do what they like now as far as I am concerned!

Mind you I worried about Tony Banks using some horrible pre-set workstation thing on that recent tour that was on telly over chrimbo - some of those sounds were a bit "off".

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Quote Chaconne:

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Mind you I worried about Tony Banks using some horrible pre-set workstation thing on that recent tour that was on telly over chrimbo - some of those sounds were a bit "off".

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That was a Korg Oasys and a Korg Wavestation ... he seemed to use the Wavestation mostly.

I've always been at odds with Banks and his choice of keyboards and stuff.

The Tron, for example, was a trademark sound of the band, especially in the early days, and he hated it (having owned a Tron, I can understand that) and has always sought ways to get rid of it! I mean, replacing a Tron with a Roland Vocoder+ to replace the Tron choir on 'Seconds Out'???!!! He used to have no hesitation in trying to distance himself from the Tron for some reason.

Now he has a Korg Triton and could take a very realistic, sampled Tron with him but chooses to use preset strings and choirs!!

He's had one of the best analogue synths ever, an ARP2600, and only managed to coax some (IMO) pretty pedestrian sounds out of it.

He's had some of the crappiest keyboards ever (RMI ElectraPiano, ARP Quadra and PolyMoog).

He hardly ever (if ever) used a Leslie with his Hammond.

I guess some of these gave him a unique and original 'sound' unlike, say, Wakeman's or Emerson's or other prog keyboardists but they just seem odd choices... to me at least.

And to be fair, the other band members had some pretty non-standard instrument setups.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Chaconne:

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Mind you I worried about Tony Banks using some horrible pre-set workstation thing on that recent tour that was on telly over chrimbo - some of those sounds were a bit "off".

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That was a Korg Oasys and a Korg Wavestation ... he seemed to use the Wavestation mostly.

I've always been at odds with Banks and his choice of keyboards and stuff.

The Tron, for example, was a trademark sound of the band, especially in the early days, and he hated it (having owned a Tron, I can understand that) and has always sought ways to get rid of it! I mean, replacing a Tron with a Roland Vocoder+ to replace the Tron choir on 'Seconds Out'???!!! He used to have no hesitation in trying to distance himself from the Tron for some reason.

Now he has a Korg Triton and could take a very realistic, sampled Tron with him but chooses to use preset strings and choirs!!

He's had one of the best analogue synths ever, an ARP2600, and only managed to coax some (IMO) pretty pedestrian sounds out of it.

He's had some of the crappiest keyboards ever (RMI ElectraPiano, ARP Quadra and PolyMoog).

He hardly ever (if ever) used a Leslie with his Hammond.

I guess some of these gave him a unique and original 'sound' unlike, say, Wakeman's or Emerson's or other prog keyboardists but they just seem odd choices... to me at least.

And to be fair, the other band members had some pretty non-standard instrument setups.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

It stands repeating

Yep, agree with most of that. I don't understand why Tony doesn't just use 'real' Mellotron sounds now he has machines capable of it. The string, choir and Hammond sounds on the last tour were so 'nice' - ugh! Bring back the grit, Tony, you're still the man!

I did actually prefer his MXR Phase 100/Boss CE1-ized Hammond sound to the real Leslie. He obviously went for it as a matter of practicality, but that sound really does have a magic to it. To be honest there are not many sounds to which that combination of pedals can't add magic!

One of my favourite sounds *ever* - RMI piano => Fender Blender fuzz => MXR Phase 100. Think 'Dance on a Volcano' ("Through a crack in Mother Earth..."). Slurp!

I'm working with a 'no synths, please, we're metal' band for the next 6 weeks. But the vocalist wants to try some keyboard sounds. They think synths all sound 'nice' - wait until they hear what I have lined up for them... Hwaah, hwaah, hwaah, hwaawwww!

(And yes, I have the rest of 'Cinema Show' nailed (every single patch change and control tweak), but that 4-octave run baffles me - there's just no time in there to cleanly flick the octave switch! Arrgh! )

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote hollowsun:

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That was a Korg Oasys and a Korg Wavestation ... he seemed to use the Wavestation mostly.

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For the 2007 tour, 90% of the keyboard sounds came from the Oasys. The rest came from some customised Emu Proteus' in a rack behind Tony.

The Wavestation was just a dumb 61 note controller.
This was proved at one gig where it rained so hard, the Wavestation failed and was replaced mid-gig with an 01w/FD.

I think Banks missed some of the point of that tour. It was nostalgia. Nothing they played was less than 15 years old. The fans wanted to hear the trademark songs, but likewise the trademark sounds. He may of hated the sound of the Mellotron, but he turned it into one of the bands signature sounds. Watcher Of The Skies doesn't sound right on any other sound. OK, so they didn't play that, but you know what I mean.

Even Mike Rutherford dusted off his Taurus pedals. Although in order to keep a working set on the stage for the gig, they had to have 5 sets of them in various stages of repeair throughout the tour!

But then again there's the practical element to it. Look at the 'keyboard castles' he's gone on the road with before.
Dream setup, but a nightmare for the keyboard tech.
The 2007 setup was a quick and easy solution; which kind of sums up the tour. Get in quick , get out quick and take the money...

Stu.

P.S. Mind you, Nick Magnus' review of the new MTron Pro in this months magazine manages to nto mentioned Tony Banks, Genesis or Watcher Of The Skies. That takes some doing...!

Quote The Elf:

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Well, given that this thread is back up and running...

Here's something that's puzzled me for ages!

In 'Cinema Show', during the synth solo there's a rising triad arpeggio section near the end that spans more than the width of the keyboard of the Pro-Soloist. At first I thought it was maybe just a studio splice, but Tony plays it live too (and I have many bootlegs that prove it). I can't see how he could be using the octave switch, because it's way too quick to catch.

Anyone know how it's done?

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The Pro-Soloist had an octave switcher (you can hear it do that best on live versions of Suppers Ready just before the 'today's the day to celebrate' line where he switches it down 4 octaves), so for the Cinema Show run he plays the first octave of the run, then his fingers jump down an octave as he moves the octave switch up an octave. If that didn't make any sense then post on this topic again and I'll try and explain it in better English! It's hard but not impossible, but I bet he was happy when he got the Quadra and didn't have to muck about like that anymore!

Quote sadsongco:

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Quote The Elf:

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Well, given that this thread is back up and running...

Here's something that's puzzled me for ages!

In 'Cinema Show', during the synth solo there's a rising triad arpeggio section near the end that spans more than the width of the keyboard of the Pro-Soloist. At first I thought it was maybe just a studio splice, but Tony plays it live too (and I have many bootlegs that prove it). I can't see how he could be using the octave switch, because it's way too quick to catch.

Anyone know how it's done?

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The Pro-Soloist had an octave switcher (you can hear it do that best on live versions of Suppers Ready just before the 'today's the day to celebrate' line where he switches it down 4 octaves), so for the Cinema Show run he plays the first octave of the run, then his fingers jump down an octave as he moves the octave switch up an octave. If that didn't make any sense then post on this topic again and I'll try and explain it in better English! It's hard but not impossible, but I bet he was happy when he got the Quadra and didn't have to muck about like that anymore!

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No, that makes perfect sense, and it is the method I have tried... and tried... and tried...

Thanks for the help though!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote mpostor:

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But then again there's the practical element to it. Look at the 'keyboard castles' he's gone on the road with before.
Dream setup, but a nightmare for the keyboard tech.

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He could have bought my Mellotron sampling CD (Jeeez - I'd *give* HIM a copy) and taken (effectively) a 'real' Tron on the road in his Oasys that would be indistinguishable from the real thing. No excuse really.

I'd have given him a copy of my CP70 sample CD as well to load into his Oasys for those songs of theirs that featured that instrument

Quote mpostor:

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P.S. Mind you, Nick Magnus' review of the new MTron Pro in this months magazine manages to not mentioned Tony Banks, Genesis or Watcher Of The Skies. That takes some doing...!

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Even more so when you consider Nick used to play keys with Steve Hackett!!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Now he has a Korg Triton

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Correction....

Now he has a Korg OASYS

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote The Elf:

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I did actually prefer his MXR Phase 100/Boss CE1-ized Hammond sound to the real Leslie. He obviously went for it as a matter of practicality, but that sound really does have a magic to it.

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I do agree with that

Quote The Elf:

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One of my favourite sounds *ever* - RMI piano => Fender Blender fuzz => MXR Phase 100. Think 'Dance on a Volcano' ("Through a crack in Mother Earth..."). Slurp!

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Haven't tried that combination but the sound of the raw ElectraPiano is pretty naff.

That said, 'Carpet Crawlers' wouldn't be the same without it.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Great reading guys - great insights.

Its odd isn't is when as a hobbyist you can quite easily set up a virtual keyboard bank from heaven to emulate your favourite album sounds/ players - then the artists themselves seam less obsessed with the 'authenticity'?

Maybe its like Dave Gilmour says when he wishes he could be one of the those that have actually heard Dark Side of the Moon, rather than have been involved in the complexities, stresses and technical hurdles of making the thing. Sometimes I think most of what are classic sounds for us, at the time for the artists represented compromises and making the best of what was around - rather than laying down the history of great sound!

I dunno - interesting though.

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Quote hollowsun:

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Steve had an massive pedal board made for him by Pete Cornish who built all his pedals into it, one of which was a Colorsound Octave Splitter. I imagine it's that.

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Cheers hollowsun, could be that, but if you listen to the last note of the octave jumping section in Moonlit Knight (a low A) there's a definite resonant filter thing going on with it - does the colorsound do that?

Quote The Elf:

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Quote sadsongco:

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Quote The Elf:

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Well, given that this thread is back up and running...

Here's something that's puzzled me for ages!

In 'Cinema Show', during the synth solo there's a rising triad arpeggio section near the end that spans more than the width of the keyboard of the Pro-Soloist. At first I thought it was maybe just a studio splice, but Tony plays it live too (and I have many bootlegs that prove it). I can't see how he could be using the octave switch, because it's way too quick to catch.

Anyone know how it's done?

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The Pro-Soloist had an octave switcher (you can hear it do that best on live versions of Suppers Ready just before the 'today's the day to celebrate' line where he switches it down 4 octaves), so for the Cinema Show run he plays the first octave of the run, then his fingers jump down an octave as he moves the octave switch up an octave. If that didn't make any sense then post on this topic again and I'll try and explain it in better English! It's hard but not impossible, but I bet he was happy when he got the Quadra and didn't have to muck about like that anymore!

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No, that makes perfect sense, and it is the method I have tried... and tried... and tried...

Thanks for the help though!

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Good luck! I've practised it on a Korg Prophecy (same problem, only 3 octave keyboard), got it to the point where it was accurate about 20% of the time, which was enough for me to feel proud!

Quote sadsongco:

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Quote hollowsun:

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Steve had an massive pedal board made for him by Pete Cornish who built all his pedals into it, one of which was a Colorsound Octave Splitter. I imagine it's that.

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Cheers hollowsun, could be that, but if you listen to the last note of the octave jumping section in Moonlit Knight (a low A) there's a definite resonant filter thing going on with it - does the colorsound do that?

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I've often wondered about this! It almost sounds as if Steve has a 'rocker' type pedal which is controlling the octave jumps. Does the Colorsound Octave Splitter use one? I've not been able to find anything about this pedal on the net...if anyone has a pic, it would be terrificly appreciated!

The live version(s) I've heard from that time (including the one on the 1998 boxed set) really exploit the up-down-up octave switches (the last note (low A) is often going up-down-up-down as it sustains), and, as it happens quite smoothly, it sounds more like a pot than a switch controlling the change.

I've come a little late to this thread,
but I don't believe y'all ever actually answered the original question: namely, about Mike Rutherford's fuzz bass!

One of the best examples is "The Knife" on Trespass - it's very distorted, but it's also very tight and defined and has loads of bottom end - he plays some quite wiggly riffs with it but its not messy.... maybe it was some studio trick of John Anthony's, because its noticably absent from the live version of The Knife on 'Genesis Live'.

The fuzz on songs like "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" and "lillywhite lilleth" is a lot more trebbly.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

As for Tony Banks - his latterday taste in sonics does p1ss me off! lol

Like, have you heard the 2007 stereo and 5.1 remixes that he oversaw?
I kinda "had" to get them for the way they let you hear so many extra details of the arrangements, but there's many key moments when I just think "Oi!! Tony Banks! NOOOOOO!!"

Like for instance, in the instrumental bit in the middle of Can-utility & the Coastliners: Banks plays a mellotron 3 violins solo over a big thundering low D bass pedal.... he's totally emaciated the bass pedal in his new mixes! The fule!

There were also several points where Steve Hackett's guitar could've been allowed to be much more prominent in the 5.1, but Banksy was having none of it :/

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Edited by feline1 (17/12/11 11:55 PM)

Quote feline1:

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One of the best examples is "The Knife" on Trespass - it's very distorted, but it's also very tight and defined and has loads of bottom end - he plays some quite wiggly riffs with it but its not messy....

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Rutherford is long underrated as a bass player. He's one of the best (as well as being a damned good 12-string pluckist and a dab hand/foot with the bass pedals). A very talented and modest chap - damned good writer as well. Overlooked too often. Him and Collins were as tight as a duck's chuffer and even when they did that recent big tour, those oldies put the bright young things to shame.

But mention prog bassists and it'll always be Chris Squire and Greg Lake that spring to mind. Brash amateurs compared with Rutherford's subtle dexterity.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Well, this has all been said before many times by all and sundry, but the key difference between Genesis and a many of their other prog contemporaries (e.g. Yes) is that Genesis put the songs first, rather than their playing.
Whilst there was a lot of fancy playing in Genesis' songs, but it was pretty much always in the the service of the songs. The songs were crafted to deliver emotional impact, not to provide a vehicle to showcase someone's virtuosity.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Back on OT.

I notice that Mike Rutherfords sound shares a lot of common features with other players, almost as if every 'prog' player had a similar set up. Whoever played in Renasissance had a similar sound, and sounds a bit like Chris Squire.

One really good proponent of this sound is John Wetton. His sound on the first Asia album is a great example of a well defined, distorted but deep sound. I used to think it was a Rickenbaker thing but I dont think it is, but its begining to bug me.

All have similar properties - distorted, but still bassy. Trebly and piano like, yet solid and nicely articluated. I can get sort of close with a Sansamp, but it seams that the answer to this question is just 'use a distortion pedal'. I think new strings is sometimes useful, as is a blend of tones a little compression, and good acurate articulation with a pick - but I still feel I am missing a big trick because I cant get it completely right - not sounding just like Mr Rutherford, or Squire, but getting that sound common to a lot of players of the period.

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I'm pretty certain I read years a go that in the early days Mike's bass was going through a Watkins guitar amp and not a bass amp at all.

And I know for sure that Chris's tone comes in no small part from him having his twin Ampeg SVTs and a marshall valve head feeding a 4x12 cab - it's the combination of that clean and punchy ampeg sound with the overdriven guitar amp that gives both the distortion and the definition.

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

Would I be dissapointed with a Bass POD or somesuch in order to experiment futher?

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