Good grief,
I guess the SoS forum will be half empty now, as nobody will be able to start threads every month berating Turnkey any more!


--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote Seye:

---

I was until this morning an employee of Sound Control in Salford..............

The main remaining stores (that I can remember) are...
Manchester Salford 0161 877 6262
Leeds East 0113 245 6415
London Oxford Rd (0207) 631 4200
Turnkey (see website)
Birmingham (0121) 248 5868
Southampton (02380) 829 189

---

My deepest sympathy Seye, i've had great dealings with SC, in particular both Leeds stores. Always had some good deals and some pretty knowledgeable guys there too, i even considered applying for a job at one time.

Having rung Leeds City SC today, it would appear that Leeds East is the one that's shut. That's not a correction for the sake of feeling good or looking like i know something, simply in case people round here are heading to the wrong one, apparently the shutters are down at Leeds East.

I know lots of the staff at Leeds city have gone as well, they're down to minimum staffing.

Sad day

Quote Yago:

---

Hey Smokey , if you gonna flame or bait on an internet forum ....
Might not be a good idea to put your full name in your public profile :P

---

Are you saying Andrew Obal is not his name?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/05/08 04:40 PM)

When I was in SC Oxford Street and Turnkey earlier this month, I got the feeling something was not right, I could not put my finger on it at the time, but now things make sense, My thoughts are with all those that are now out of jobs and hope something comes along for you.

it also may explain why Turnkey did not want to sort out Commander's Access Virus.

Simon

--------------------
www.sounds-and-images.co.uk
http://twitter.com/soundsandimages

In fairness they did sort out his Virus, despite having lost the distribution rights to Virus some time earlier.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Another question...........

Music Live

Isn't this a Sound Control Show?

Will it happen?

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Yago,

Nice pic. eh?

Thanks for your concern but I never say or write anything anonymously. You either agree or disagree.

saye

Sorry. missed out helped on that post...hope it makes sense now?

Oh well, if everyone on here is convinced it's a sad day for the music industry then I guess it must be!

Quote SMOKYB3:

---

Put it this way, when a Sound Control director told me last year how much stuff went "missing" every month via staff I was staggered!

---

There was a shortfall of £1m, but that was based upon the ordering system and the fact that special orders were not correctly attributed to their relevant client accounts.

There will always be theft, in any business, but to attribute this to a company as a whole is both disrespectful and extremely unwise given the litigious nature of said comment.

Quote Seye:

---

Quote SMOKYB3:

---

As for the young kids of the last few years? Put it this way, when a Sound Control director told me last year how much stuff went "missing" every month via staff I was staggered! They will pick up jobs np problem!

---

This is just ignorant, untrue and possibly slanderous. These are decent hard working people who are now looking for work. Please show some respect for their situation.

---

that's a rather naive position....

ALL retail operations suffer some loss to internal theft.... and the bigger the operation, the harder it is to tie down ....

I've been there, done that..... as manager , and as owner of MI retail operations... it adds up very quickly....

My Wife is now a manager at a Wilkinson's store... (one of several hundred stores... they're rather larger than SC were ) they're currently spending MILLIONS on internal security across the company to try and reduce the problem... hidden cameras , randomised (by automated selection process) full searches on exit , and all sorts of other measures... they mentioned a budget of 5.5 million on these security measures... reckoning if they managed to cut the loss rate by just 20% they'll make it all back in under 6 months.



in an MI retail store of 10 people on staff... if each one pockets just a plectrum a day... accidentally or otherwise... over an operation of 25 stores that's £39,000 a year in lost revenue.

lest say 2 in ten are less than entirely scruple free, and have a set of strings every couple of weeks.... that's another 10 grand.... 50 grand a year for just those..... then there's the odd patch cord, maybe a mic lead, a couple of jack plugs , a few drum skins.... the odd pedal battery, bridge pin, and so on... just based on that model , it could easily be more than £100K per year...


..... now then, that's for 250 staff in total.... SC had rather more....


and by some standards, THAT model was actually rather light weight and an example of someone doing reasonably well in this respect... i've known cases where staff have been known to have (but not proven at the time) walked off with entire bloody instruments....

usually the "excuse" is that the pay is so piss poor they make it up by having "perks"



i'm not implying the majority of staff at SC were especially dishonest , but there will always be SOME who aren't angels... and only a very few would really go for the big stuff (they're usually the stupid ones and get caught very quickly) but internal losses happen everywhere... it's a reality and to deny it is simply sticking a head in a bucket of sand.




I do however feel for those who've just been dumped on their asses, and those likely to be in about 90 days....


i was rather fortunate , in that when a former (MI Retail) employer went under, with Bailiffs turning up at each store... I had already left and gone freelance.... and was just helping out part time, as required... (at my own hourly rate.,.. not theirs.... ) But I had some PA stuff in storage at one store.... and I had the devils own time getting it back... proving it was MINE and not the company's ... and many friends lost their jobs, and a lot more besides.....

Shortly afterwards we opened our own store... 5 doors down from the old one..... with the majority of the staff from the old place..... I sold up in about 2000 , to concentrate on live and studio engineering, and raising 5 kids as a single parent;... running the shop as well as the studio and pa hire stuff was too much to cope with after I became a single dad...

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Well , go for it Smokey , pyromania ftw , not what I would choose .
It is a sad day , the staff at the Man city branch were always cool to me , especially Graig , who sourced my A7's at a very nice price .
As I said before , we seem to get stiffed on price with audio equipment in UK , and I can only see this making things worse .

Quote Max!:

---

last I heard, the outstanding Yamaha balance was in excess of 5 million... and i've heard indications that the Roland one was of similar magnitude...

---

You're not far off, but I think the figure will probably rise further as there is still a considerable amount of Roland/Yamaha stock still in the 26 stores.

Without prejudice, there is approximately £250k of stock in the Birmingham store alone, all of which belongs to the relevant supplier, and I would expect the larger suppliers to attempt forced lien to recover that stock.

Quote Max!:

---

i've known cases where staff have been known to have (but not proven at the time) walked off with entire bloody instruments....

usually the "excuse" is that the pay is so piss poor they make it up by having "perks"

i'm not implying the majority of staff at SC were especially dishonest , but there will always be SOME who aren't angels... and only a very few would really go for the big stuff (they're usually the stupid ones and get caught very quickly) but internal losses happen everywhere... it's a reality and to deny it is simply sticking a head in a bucket of sand.

---

Nobody would deny that this happens, however, I would not be so bold to openly state this to be the case unless I was in full receipt of the facts.

PF my understanding on the Yamaha figure is that approximately £5.5m was outstanding on the account, if they manage to recover some unsold stock then that balance will reduce..... but not by all that much in relative terms....

I may not work in the retail sector any more.... But i still have fingers in pies.

There's whole heaps of ramifications to the likely state of the UK MI retail market in the near future.. I'm supposed to be doing some work right now... so I'll hold off a 10 page epic for now.....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Max

Good post.

To quote the director "They never seem to buy guitar strings which sesms strange when we employ so many guitarists".
I'm sorry if the earlier post upset some but I know it was of great concern and was not a minor problem.

I always liked Pat & Ray, we had some good times together. But I have to say in very recent years Pat was, well I think the article quoted earlier from MI Pro say's it all. Ray in my humble opinion is still a top man!

Quote Parker Fly:

---

[
Nobody would deny that this happens,

---

I think you'll find Saye did exactly that.....


I'm fully conversant with the reality ....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Max!:

---

PF my understanding on the Yamaha figure is that approximately £5.5m was outstanding on the account, if they manage to recover some unsold stock then that balance will reduce..... but not by all that much in relative terms....

---

Hence I said you weren't far off; even for Yamaha and Roland UK this will have a serious effect on their position.

Quote Max!:

---

Quote Parker Fly:

---

[
Nobody would deny that this happens,

---

I think you'll find Saye did exactly that.....


I'm fully conversant with the reality ....

---

My mistake, I thought you had post to the contrary.

Yago,

You may well feel that you are "getting stuffed" on UK prices, but it sure isn't from retailers. Margins are far, far lower than in the US for instance.

It's too early to speculate on suppliers losses. Most will have Retention of Title on all the unsold stock. Of course some may have supplied substantial loan stock which may have already been sold and of course some suppliers have put a small fortune shopfitting the stores for Sound Control. I really hope that not too many customers paid in advance or made cash deposits for unfullfilled orders.

At Digital Village we are saddened to hear that many of our music industry colleagues have been made redundant.

If you have been made redundant from Turnkey or Sound Control and either live or are prepared to move to the London area, please e-mail jobs@digitalvillage.co.uk as we are currently recruiting.

Jeremy Lumsden
Digital Village

http://www.dv247.com/

Edited by Jezphonic (01/05/08 06:29 PM)

I just found about about this and I'm quite shocked and saddened. Most of the gear I've bought during the last few years was from Turnkey (because of their competitive prices) and Sound Control (because of the very convenient location of their Leeds City store within walking distance of the station). While neither company was 'perfect' I was always pleased with the deals that TK had to offer and by the friendly and enthusiastic staff that I met at SC. I was looking forward to doing more business with both companies.

My feelings go out to those staff who are now without employment and those who will spend the next 12 weeks wondering what will happen to their jobs. The problem with some companies is that they get too big because they are run by people who are purely in it for business and money and have no passion for the thing that the business is about. Maybe a group of SC and TK staff could get together, acquire one of the former SC/TK sites, and create a music gear business which is directed by people who are passionate about what they are selling rather than merely what is going into the till. I'm sure between them they will have experience of running a store, dealing with manufacturers/suppliers, etc. If they stayed small and focused on the most important things - music, musicians and gear - they could make a real success of it. It's just a thought.

Quote SMOKYB3:

---

I really hope that not too many customers paid in advance or made cash deposits for unfullfilled orders.

---

Interesting point. I enquired a few months ago with my local Sound Control about the Arturia V Collection and was told there were none in stock and that I'd have to pay up front in full for them to order one as they didn't want to be left with a piece of superfluous stock if I changed my mind. I declined on the grounds that the last item I'd ordered from them had taken ages to arrive and, while I understood their point, I also felt that I should have the right to go elsewhere if they couldn't deliver within a reasonable timeframe. Once bitten, and all that! Obviously this would be a difficult right to exercise if I'd already paid them in full and had to extract my money from them in the event of the order not being filled within a reasonable time... so I hope there aren't too many 'unsecured creditors' out there.

--------------------
www.mitchthompson.co.uk

At no-one special...

It's really unhelpful to start speculating about how this minor ripple in a tiny teacup might "damage" the likes of Yamaha or Roland or whoever, possibly damaging forum members' confidence in those companies.

Sound Control was a small company which went under with debts of maybe £30 million (mostly owed to the bank), or the price of a decent house in Mayfair.

Yamaha is a Fortune 500 global company. They could probably swallow ALL of Sound Control's total liabilities to everyone out of a week's profits and not notice.

There may (or may not... I'm not willing to join in the speculation-fest) be a bit more pain at say the UK distributor level, but I'd be surprised if a company like Yamaha did not see a lot of upside in supporting their trading partners in a situation like this.

Roland posted record turnover (Y95 billion) and record profits in 2007. It has assets of US$789 million.

Let's try to stay grounded in reality, shall we?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Steve, many UK distribution operations, are independent of their relevant main corporation... and it's THEY that will bear any losses, NOT the "parent" corporation ....

in such a case, if there were uninsured losses . then it's the UK operation that suffers, because the global corp won't "let them off" the costs of the stock supplied....


Several UK MI distribution companies in the past have folded in similar circumstances... not necessarily instantly immediately after the collapse of a single large retailer, but the retail collapses definitely contributed to the end result... had they not happened, there would have been no real problem for the distributors...

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Max, I know that. And I'm saying ill-informed idle speculation founded on no facts whatsoever can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I saw a major UK PLC construction company forced into (unwarranted) insolvency because they were (wrongly) assumed to have lost a lot of money when Canary Wharf went bust. And many similar cases. Careless talk costs livelihoods.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/05/08 07:18 PM)

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I'm saying ill-informed idle speculation founded on no facts whatsoever can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

---

Agreed. Unsubstantiated internet forum wibble, speculation, rumours and Chinese whispers can be EXTREMELY damaging to manufacturers and/or distributors in this small business of ours ... I can vouch for that.

It spreads like wildfire from forum to forum like a rash getting exaggerated almost exponentially such that it wouldn't surprise me if we don't soon see a forum thread headline somewhere soon of "Sell your Motifs - Yamaha bankrupt!!!" on the basis of what's been discussed here

My every sympathy to all who have been left so suddenly unemployed by this. I've been in the same situation myself and can totally empathise with the anguish and other emotions you must be feeling. Good luck and my very best wishes to you all and to your families who are also caught up in this.


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

i used to work in the man city store... feel shat on, i found out whilst lay in bed on my day off!!! Hope all the staff find bigger and better things! much love to all!

Quote hollowsun:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I'm saying ill-informed idle speculation founded on no facts whatsoever can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

---

Agreed. Unsubstantiated internet forum wibble, speculation, rumours and Chinese whispers can be EXTREMELY damaging to manufacturers and/or distributors in this small business of ours ... I can vouch for that.

It spreads like wildfire from forum to forum like a rash getting exaggerated almost exponentially such that it wouldn't surprise me if we don't soon see a forum thread headline somewhere soon of "Sell your Motifs - Yamaha bankrupt!!!" on the basis of what's been discussed here

Steve

---

Agreed, and therefore doesn't it also follow that the generally bad reputation that(e.g.)Turnkey had on this forum, and others, may have contributed to their downfall?

Whether the reputation is deserved or not, can retailers, manufacturers etc continue to largely ignore sustained criticism on this, and other forums? I cannot recall seeing an 'effective' response from Turnkey to any criticism. I, for one, have avoided purchasing from Turnkey in the past, probably based on what I have read on this and other forums, and despite personally having only one minor bad experience, .

Whereas, if I had a problem with a Sennheiser product, I feel confident that a criticism posted here would solicit a helpful, constuctive response.

I'd say you can't ignore repeated requests for customer service. And maybe centralising all decision-making in Dunfermline when most of your customers are on the Charing Cross Road is also questionable.

But as long as customers insist on paying internet prices whilst "someone" funds a shop with knowledgeable helpful staff for them to try thing out in, something has to give, doesn't it?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

But as long as customers insist on paying internet prices whilst "someone" funds a shop with knowledgeable helpful staff for them to try thing out in, something has to give, doesn't it?

---

And that's the crux of the matter.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote Steve Hill:

---

At no-one special...

It's really unhelpful to start speculating about how this minor ripple in a tiny teacup might "damage" the likes of Yamaha or Roland or whoever, possibly damaging forum members' confidence in those companies.

.................

Let's try to stay grounded in reality, shall we?

---

Exactly. As a fan of Seth Godin, and as referred to in another post, the web, particularly forums such as this one, means we are now all critics. One post by one of us can get more attention than an article in an obscure music or finance magazine. Particularly with Google, where throw away comments can come top of a search. With this freedom and open platform for our opinions, comes responsibility.
Rightly or wrongly I pay more attention to what SH, JW, HRJ and PW say because the use their reals names, so they are implicitly committed to their post. They are admittedly expressing opinions but the implication is they are committed to those opinions.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.

i know where you're coming from, Ian, though i would dispute the implication that using a pseudonym makes you any less "committed" to your opinions - you could be a complete troll and still use your real name (anyone see peterjkirk on the REAPER forums recently?!).

this forum is actually quite different in that respect to other places i frequent - there are far more people here using "real names" than "handles"... i'd like to think that the validity of someone's comments can be adjudged not just by reputation or username, but by each reader applying a little bit of common sense. we're all capable of recognising bullsh*t when we see it.

but you are fundamentally correct. it's far easier to express an extreme opinion on the internet than a moderated one (i hate this - i love this). i would hope, though, that people can see these as they are - i.e. opinions - and not gospel truth. ymmv...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I'd say you can't ignore repeated requests for customer service.

---

Turnkey had a reputation for being very poor on this front for a number of years. The shopping experience there was always a painful one with emphasis being place on shifting boxes rather than offering the customer the best product.
I perservered with Turnkey because it was in my locality but I knew many people who chose out of principle to not go there because the service was so so poor.
I can't speak for the rest of the stores in the UK but it was very visible on the shop floors in London that the business was managed badly.
Last time I went to Turnkey they had stripped it of all the demonstration equipment and boxes were randomly strewn across the floor in a very untidy fashion.
What's the point in paying high street rents if you're not going to put on a decent shopping environment that customers want to visit? I hope someone sets up another store because we need a Music tech shop in Central London, othwerwise its a long trip to DV in Barnet for me.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I saw a major UK PLC construction company forced into (unwarranted) insolvency because they were (wrongly) assumed to have lost a lot of money when Canary Wharf went bust. And many similar cases. Careless talk costs livelihoods.

---

A company that has balanced assets with liabilities and, most importantly, has balanced liquifiable assets with short-term liabilities cannot be forced into insolvency.

A company that steps up to the plate and answers critics and deals with problems head-on, does not suffer careless talk.

Insolvency is not an accident. It is not some nasty misfortune that could happen to anyone. It is a clear state of affairs that is brought about by allowing liabilities to exceed assets.

A company becomes insolvent through dishonesty or incompetence. Or a mixture of both. Construction companies in particular have got into the deadly habit of taking on huge projects without proper financial regulation, such as backing from the banks and / or continued and regulated payment as a project progresses.

Too many retailers and wholesalers in the UK are running their companies as a kind of smoke and mirrors operation.

One European manufacturer told me that his UK distributor told him that he was going to expand his business by remortgaging his house.

"Are these people crazy, or just stupid?" he exclaimed "The slightest thing happens and he will have no house, no business, nothing. I cannot put my company and the 24 people working for me, in danger by dealing with people like that!"

I do find it rather amusing that all of a sudden most of turdkey's staff are on this forum .......

Amazing considering how they manage to keep their heads down so well when people here have had a complaint or problem with the store or web service in the past.

Treat your customers like crap, and well ............

--------------------
www.BandSoundHire.com
PA Hire in Brighton, Sussex, Surrey and Kent.

Probably because they were in no position to speak for their company? Now they are out of a job they can speak freely. Before they might risk a bollocking, or worse.

At least that's why I didn't when I worked for Sound Control a couple of years back.

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote Steve Hill:

---

In fairness they did sort out his Virus, despite having lost the distribution rights to Virus some time earlier.

---

They did sort me out, and rather professionally and efficiently in the end.

I've been thinking about this though and things do make sense now. Initially when I called Turnkey to have my Virus repaired I was told that they were no longer the distributor and that they had no new units in stock for me to borrow. However, when I spoke to the chap in the Turnkey repairs dept he told me that he would send me over a PSU from one of the new units in the stockroom! This suggests to me that somebody upstairs knew something was about to happen and was winding things down.

Turnkey was not a shop I frequented - I used to deal with Media Tools upstairs. I didn't like it as a shop and on the rare occassions I did go in I found it slapdash and disorganised. I do feel sorry for the staff that no longer have a job however, and we shouldn't forget the very human outcome of this company going down.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

There is another definition of insolvency: inability to pay debts when due.

If you own say real estate worth £1,000,000 which is not easily saleable owing to say sluggish market conditions, and you cannot pay your fuel bill of £1,000 without selling, the fuel supplier can bankrupt you. This happened to tens of thousands of people in the 1990s recession when they were simple unable to sell properties in certain areas, at any price. They eventually paid their debts in full, but an insolvency procedure was part of the mechanism by which they did so.

I can recall an awful lot of people and companies in the early 1990s who tried to discuss (often sensible) rescue plans with their banks to no avail. The response was, basically, forget it, we've had enough, we want our money back. Right now, banks are moving back into that mindset.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Hmmm... well I do know that certain reps are running around the country doing stock checks on their kit, which is obviously still legally theirs to claw back - so how much of it the administrators will be able to sell is moot.

One would assume that they need to be able to account to the administrators just how much is legally the suppliers' and how much SC has already paid for.

It's a sad state of affairs, though.

--------------------
[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

There are clearly a number of contributing factors to this particular administration.

But there is a fundamental mindset which has contributed over the years to the core problem - that is the obsession with "growth" which leads to poor internal communications and in turn to staff being unable to offer good personal service.

The problem with Soundcontrol/Turnkey type company is that even committed and knowledgeable staff (and there were some) were not permitted to make decisions, or respond to problems which had to be referred to Head Office.

When I read staff claiming that the collapse came as a shock I am just astonished - to an outside it was obvious that the group was in major problems - poor and out-of-date websites - none existent stock control - some very shabby shops - and key suppliers refusing to allow them to stock their goods. The opening of new superstores such as Leeds City could not disguise these basic problems

My most recent experience of this was demonstrated by Dolphin who took my money and then failed to deliver the goods (be warned they always charge you credit card when you place the order and justify this by saying that they need to "charge on order" for cash flow purposes - let the alarm bells start ringing folks)- I phoned the mail order department from the Huddersfield shop where the item was in stock in front of my very eyes) and was told that they had not got it stock in any store so they could not fulfill the order.


That is now why I deal with only those retailers who concentrate on good personal service and know what it happening in their own company - they may not be big, or growing or winning dubious Government awards for being the fastest growing company, but they count.

Serious and professional musicians who want good products and good service should decide to support these retailers and shops - and as people like Andertons in Guildford demonstrate they need not be more expensive.

There is a lesson for us all from the Sound Control experience and we have a choice whether we make it or not.

Quote Mahoobley:

---

Probably because they were in no position to speak for their company? Now they are out of a job they can speak freely. Before they might risk a bollocking, or worse.

---

That's absolutely right. You can only speak for a company in a public forum if the company authorises you to do so. Otherwise, you'll be sacked. End of story.

Reading other contributors' comments about the poor impression they'd formed during recent visit to Sound Control-owned stores, I too felt that something was missing when I'd been in my local branch in recent months. There was, for example, still an awful lot of old software around for products that I knew had been updated. There was also less initiative than was previously the case to recommend products not currently in stock but which could normally be ordered in pretty easily.

Maybe this reflected the state of staff morale and the likelihood that they'd have had problems ordering new items?

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke