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Ben



Joined: 27/06/03
Posts: 1887
Loc: Oxford
Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration...
      #610239 - 30/04/08 06:46 PM
Just heard about this -

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/news_story/a/news_id/e/2112


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Rockrooms



Joined: 06/12/05
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610241 - 30/04/08 06:52 PM
Quote Ben:

Just heard about this -

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/news_story/a/news_id/e/2112



Just seen this to, though the website seems to up as normal, still seems unbelievable, very very sad as I've always had good service from them and the folk were fairly knowledgeable and helpful.

- Joe -
Rockrooms Studio


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Tomadvent
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610242 - 30/04/08 06:53 PM
This should be a headline feature please SOS - the websites are still working - and it will save people much angst if they don't place orders now.

No surprise that the supermarket approach to music retailing did not work for Sound Control - poor product range and staff knowledge etc - and Turnkey have been in turmoil for about 18 months.

Hopefully this will convince people that there is no future in turning music sales in leisure retailing - and focus everyone back on the real music shops.

Over 100+ jobs however have gone - many of whom will be working musicians as well which is very sad and worrying for all involved and their families.


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crofter
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610243 - 30/04/08 06:54 PM
That's coffin chasing in the extreme, Dolphin should be ashamed.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: crofter]
      #610246 - 30/04/08 07:04 PM
Quote crofter:

That's coffin chasing in the extreme, Dolphin should be ashamed.




That's business! And being slightly pedantic, but it is relevant, Sound Control are legally obliged to disclose the fact of the administration, and give the administrators' names and addresses, on their website from the moment of appointment.

OK, it's day one, and it take a little time to make these things happen... but I can also say with 100% confidence that if you place an order today (and if the goods are available) the administrators - not the previous management - will honour it. Or they will give you your money back. There's no way a company like Deloitte wants to be accused of defrauding customers in these situations. They've spent 200 years building up a reputation for honesty and trustworthiness, and they only need to trash it once.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610248 - 30/04/08 07:07 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote crofter:

That's business! And being slightly pedantic, but it is relevant, Sound Control are legally obliged to disclose the fact of the administration, and give the administrators' names and addresses, on their website from the moment of appointment.




Their web-site is a different legal entity, that aspect of their business was kept quite separate from Most Modern.


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hogberto
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610249 - 30/04/08 07:11 PM
there's a bit of discussion about it here:

http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/29485/BREAKING-NEWS-Sound-Control-files-for-a dministration


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #610251 - 30/04/08 07:14 PM
Well it's the directors' choice if they want to henceforth trade with unlimited personal liability contrary to sections 216 and 217 of the Insolvency Act 1986 by muddying the waters as to which entity anyone is dealing with. I'm sure it will count enormously in their favour when the administrators file their reports on directors' conduct under the Company Directors Disqualification Act.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Tomadvent
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610252 - 30/04/08 07:16 PM
What ever the legal ins-and outs of the separate operations under the same name (do any of us have any real idea how the different operations are linked to each other?) - simple common sense (given how bad their respective customer services are/were) would suggest to me that this is NOT a good time to place an order at any of the sites. They may technically be legally and financially seperate but it is hard to believe that the staff will be focusing on the job in hand.


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philetaylor
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610256 - 30/04/08 07:23 PM
Hi.

Does anybody know which stores have closed and which are staying open?

Phil


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Monobass
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610258 - 30/04/08 07:29 PM
It's not a good situation for the employees.

On the other hand, at a personal level over 15 years I've found everyone I had to deal with at Turnkey to either be rude or clueless.

Pretty opportunistic response from Dolphin... but I've never had a bad experience with Dolphin's direct customer service, maybe they learnt their lessons from their own experiences as customers at Turnkey... although to be fair Dolphins website is pretty useless... i just ring them up.

The people I feel sorry for are those small companies whose products were distributed exclusively through Turnkey in the UK like Dave Smith Instruments. I picked up a Prophet Module from Turnkey recently because I had no other choice as to where to buy it from. I even considered buying it direct from Dave Smith to avoid Turnkey, but they recommended I used Turnkey for various reasons.

Turnkey won't be missed, lets hope the decent products find another home.

Edited by Monobass (30/04/08 07:30 PM)


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nathanscribe



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610259 - 30/04/08 07:29 PM
SC only just opened a big new store in Leeds, where I've spent more time than I should have mucking around on their P08...

Intriguingly, Turnkey were the sole UK importers of DSI and Moog, or so I heard. Wonder who'd take that mantle on now? And what that will do to the prices...

EDIT: whoops, Monobass just mentioned this while i was typing. Still, I agree - although i have to say there was one extremely helpful guy at SC leeds who was never less than brilliant. Sorry to see them go. There's nowhere else convenient for me to try stuff out before I buy it.

--------------------
my nerdy synth tech blog

Edited by nathanscribe (30/04/08 07:32 PM)


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~Paul



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610260 - 30/04/08 07:30 PM
Surprised it didnt happen years ago to be honest. Rarely had good service out of Turnkey, and they had enough time to get their act together.
Roll on the clear out sale!

Paul

--------------------
Paul


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Parker Fly



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610263 - 30/04/08 07:34 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Well it's the directors' choice if they want to henceforth trade with unlimited personal liability contrary to sections 216 and 217 of the Insolvency Act 1986 by muddying the waters as to which entity anyone is dealing with. I'm sure it will count enormously in their favour when the administrators file their reports on directors' conduct under the Company Directors Disqualification Act.




It wouldn't be unreasonable for a wholly separate company to make use of a trading style, i.e. a franchisee, and legally the franchisee would not be liable for the debts of the parent company save for those duly noted in their contract. It is also quite acceptable for a franchisee to be partly or wholly connected to the franchise in terms of those involved.


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Monobass
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: nathanscribe]
      #610266 - 30/04/08 07:36 PM
Quote nathanscribe:

whoops, Monobass just mentioned this while i was typing. Still, I agree - although i have to say there was one extremely helpful guy at SC leeds who was never less than brilliant. Sorry to see them go. There's nowhere else convenient for me to try stuff out before I buy it.




Yeah I guess I should have pointed out i'm only talking about Turnkey in London.


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Seaforth
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610268 - 30/04/08 07:39 PM
Regarding Dophin - well, why shouldn't they be opportunistic? It isn't going to do the newly unemployed any good if they say nothing about it for a respectful period. It's a business opportunity, they're a business.

I've bought from them quite a few times and they've always been very good. I hope that they don't try to take too much on and go downhill but that said- good luck to them.

I'm interested to know what the poster above found so poor about their website - I've never had a problem with it, including finding specific gauges of guitar string for a matter of pence, right up to the stuff costing hundreds or thousands. Never had anything coming in as in stock when it wasn't etc etc.

Only visited Turnkey once - a thoroughly miserable and depressing experience.

Just thought I'd get my oar in.

Over and out.


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Parker Fly



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Tomadvent]
      #610269 - 30/04/08 07:40 PM
Quote Tomadvent:

(do any of us have any real idea how the different operations are linked to each other?)




A tenner spent at Companies House will go some way to making things clearer.


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oggyb



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Monobass]
      #610270 - 30/04/08 07:41 PM
Quote Monobass:

Quote nathanscribe:

whoops, Monobass just mentioned this while i was typing. Still, I agree - although i have to say there was one extremely helpful guy at SC leeds who was never less than brilliant. Sorry to see them go. There's nowhere else convenient for me to try stuff out before I buy it.




Yeah I guess I should have pointed out i'm only talking about Turnkey in London.




Are we certain the Leeds branches are closing? That will be a shame, if so.

There was one guy at kirkstall who commented on my skill with the roland V-Synth GT tone pad when we were last round there. I blushed.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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Monobass
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seaforth]
      #610272 - 30/04/08 07:44 PM
Quote Seaforth:

I'm interested to know what the poster above found so poor about their website - I've never had a problem with it, including finding specific gauges of guitar string for a matter of pence, right up to the stuff costing hundreds or thousands. Never had anything coming in as in stock when it wasn't etc etc.




Certain items just don't turn up in searches even when you enter very specific terms (on products which you can still access via browsing).

Mention it to Dolphin on the phone and they are very frank about the problems they have... I get the impression their system just can't handle the amount of products they carry.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610274 - 30/04/08 07:48 PM
Something resembling an official press release from www.creditman.biz...

Sound Control Group appoints adminstrators

Apr 30 2008
John Reid and Bill Dawson of Deloitte, the business advisory firm, have been appointed Administrators of Sound Control Holdings Limited (“Holdings”) and certain of its subsidiaries (“the Group”) following applications to the courts by the Group’s Directors.

The Group operates from 26 stores across the UK, under the brand names Sound Control, Media Tools, Turnkey and Soho Sound House, and is the largest musical instrument retailer in the UK. It has a turnover of £50m and 338 employees nationwide.

The Group has been impacted by increased competition from the internet and the directors had been pursuing a strategy to sell the business. This did not prove successful and accordingly they sought the appointment of John Reid and Bill Dawson as Administrators.

John Reid said: “Following a review of the Group’s operations the Administrators have today made the difficult decision to close 10 of the Group’s trading locations and bring to an end its telesales and internet sales activities. These changes to the Group’s operations have resulted in 163 redundancies with immediate effect.

“The Administrators welcome interest in the business and assets of the Group and are already in discussions with a number of interested parties to explore a possible sale.

“However, at the same time as they explore sale options, the Administrator will continue to trade the remaining 16 stores, selling high quality musical instruments to the public.”

The Group's head office is based in Dunfermline and has various trading locations throughout the UK."


Note the reference to the administrators' decision to terminate internet operations with immediate effect.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Seaforth
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Monobass]
      #610276 - 30/04/08 07:51 PM
Quote Monobass:

Quote Seaforth:

... I get the impression their system just can't handle the amount of products they carry.




Oh, that's a shame. Perhaps I've just been lucky so far then. Sounds like they're already suffering from a touch of "aagghh - it's all going too fast" - itis then. Let's hope they manage to keep their feet on the ground through all this disruption.


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Tomadvent
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #610278 - 30/04/08 07:53 PM
My keyboard playing accountant tells me that it wouldn't "necessarily" because with the same basic directors, and uncertainty what security has been offered to fund the huge Bank of Scotland loan - even apparently solvent sub=companies could be taken down.

So in a recent group of local building companies it was companies a and b which went into administration - and subsequently clear that the premises owned by company c had been used as bank security by the shared directors so company c went as well.

As it is according to the Company information it is the Holdings company (ie the group company) which has gone into liquidation.

In terms of purchases unless you are in the shop and get the product then I would be cautious about placing an order on line.


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philetaylor
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: oggyb]
      #610282 - 30/04/08 08:11 PM
As I have a companies house direct account I just had a look and their latest filed accounts are only up to April 2006 and show a 2M loss for that year and 1.1M the year before.

As of then, the group comprised of:

Sound Control Modern Music Stores Limited
Media Tools Holding Limited
Greenwood Leisure Limited (formerlly Academy of Sound and Carlsbro Sound Centres (Derby/Leicester) Ltd.

As their accounts are overdue there isn't much newer information, one interesting thing is that 3 directors resigned on 09/02/08, Raymond Miller and Alan Gavin who both held 45000 shares. Also Grahame Burgess who was their chartered management accountant and holder of 22143 shares resigned.

Cheers

Phil


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Imran500



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610283 - 30/04/08 08:17 PM
A bit sad but I had mixed experiences with them. One time they advertised a piece of software, took money from me and then failed to inform me it was discontinued.

Another time (I reported on this board) they told me the Rode NTK was in stock, my brother went to collect it, when he arrived they told him it was discontinued (incorrectly as it turns out).

Another recent experience - phoned up about the Line 6 Gearbox Silver, they said it was in stock, I asked them to double check (knowing what they're like) and lo and behold it wasn't. Phoned up Digital Village and it was in my hands the next day.

On the other hand some staff have gone out of their way to be really helpful and given some great advice.

The last time I went in there was to get a Rode NT2000 - I noticed the back area where all the synths and monitors were was all ripped out and I thought it was to refurbish the place.

I'd say overall due to their bad service they've probably lost about £500 of my business over the years - not a massively efficient operation in my experience.

Edited by Imran500 (30/04/08 08:21 PM)


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desmond



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Imran500]
      #610286 - 30/04/08 08:30 PM
It's a shame - every time I went into Sound Control in London the people I dealt with were helpful, intelligent, fairly clued up, and nice chaps.

As for Turnkey, they never lived up to the service they gave when they were Soho Soundhouse in Soho Square (they were excellent back then) and I always found going into Turnkey a rather depressing experience...

But it's bad news for the industry as a whole.


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610287 - 30/04/08 08:35 PM
Its a shame I know a few guys who work there. I'm not surprised though, you can only go so long selling nothing but Behringer and Roland before people stop shopping there.


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hogberto
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610289 - 30/04/08 08:40 PM
the last time i tried ordering something online it turned out of course that the item wasn't in stock. this was a few months ago.

the guy on the phone apologetically explained that the website couldn't display what was in stock but that they were working on a new one which would.

in the meantime i guess the world simply went off to use websites elsewhere...


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Tímo



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #610290 - 30/04/08 08:41 PM
Must have a knock-on effect on SoS somewhat, due to the hole created regard advertising revenue? Turnkey were always big (literally) on many-multiple-page-pullouts and stuff. =/

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http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community


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SecretSam
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610314 - 30/04/08 09:34 PM
Steve

"There's no way a company like Deloitte wants to be accused of defrauding customers in these situations. They've spent 200 years building up a reputation for honesty and trustworthiness, and they only need to trash it once."

I have two words for you:

"Arthur"

and

"Andersen"

:-)

--------------------
Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.


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nathanscribe



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: oggyb]
      #610316 - 30/04/08 09:37 PM
Quote oggyb:

Are we certain the Leeds branches are closing? That will be a shame, if so.




I'm over there tomorrow so I can find out. I think the only other place round here is Dolphin's Huddersfield shop, but it's a bit far out. Other than that it's what, Sheffield? I hope they can sort this out, retain a core of usefully spread retail outlets and improve their ordering system.

Seems odd they'd remove the online ordering though, I'd have though that would a cheap way of selling.

--------------------
my nerdy synth tech blog


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--
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: nathanscribe]
      #610319 - 30/04/08 09:45 PM
Where would they get their stock from? As previously mentioned in this thread, they have no way of displaying on-line stock levels and their system has previously seemed geared up to just taking all orders and either supplyng from stock or getting a supplier to deliver it at some later date.

With no means of getting stock from suppliers (unless they paid cash up front - and if they had the cash they wouldn't be broke), they would be trading illegally if they sold something they didn't have or couldn't get. So the only choice they have is to keep selling what they physicaly have in stock in the shops and their warehouses. They had to shut the website down.


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mcguirk



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610325 - 30/04/08 10:04 PM
Funny... I emailed their sales people today to get a contact for their education sales people. They replied promptly, with the contact details.


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Armadillo
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610327 - 30/04/08 10:08 PM
Turnkey AND Sound control. That leaves just about no electonic music instrument stores in London. Rose morris are not clued up on DAW stuff at all and the Digital village shop in Acton is so tiny; they never have the goods I want.
Yes, Turnkey staff is also not clued up and are very disorganized but at least they have a shed load of hardware and software synths. I mean, does any other shop in London even know who Native instruments are

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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Tímo]
      #610330 - 30/04/08 10:10 PM
I guess there will be ramifications for some UK-based music industry manufacturers too. Carillon seem the most obvious example. They produce music computer systems and a range of MIDI controllers, and Sound Control and associates appeared to be their main retail outlet in this country.

I notice that their website appears to be down tonight. A coincidence, I hope.

--------------------
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http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610334 - 30/04/08 10:15 PM
I doubt it, they were AFAIK owned by Turnkey....


Bye bye Carillion as well I'd imagine.

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #610337 - 30/04/08 10:19 PM
That would explain it then.

I wondered why they were so tied into Turnkey and Sound Control.

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Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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Tomadvent
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610356 - 30/04/08 10:55 PM
Carillon are part of the same group of companies. There are reports around on the MI site that a Norwegian buyer was in place for Sound Control Holdings, but pulled out because of the unprofitability of some of the stores.

There would be nothing to stop them know negotiating with the Administrators for the bits they do want - including Carillon, the profitable stores etc. With the level of debt that SC were carrying and no published accounts since 2006 the whole group would have been a huge risk for any investor - now there is the prospect of something rising from the collapse.

Then they need to sort out the staff knowledge ( sadly often poor), stock control, and customer care which has been of the pace for ages and left them competing with Thomann etc, rather than the better retail stores such as Andertons and Coda.

There were staff around in Sound Control and Turnkey who knew what was happening and what needed doing, but the Directors just kept on growing the company.

There is a moral here for the other growing companies such as Dolphin. Informed service which convinces professional customers is the key - and critically how do you react when things go wrong for a customer - do you make excuses or do you sort it. Studiospares and Andertons etc don't often make mistakes - and when they do they are small enough care and offer personal service to get it sorted.


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RegressiveRock
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Tomadvent]
      #610362 - 30/04/08 11:04 PM
Well I probably should have guessed when I walked in there around a month ago and found precious little stock on offer and mostly low end stuff at that!

Turnkey, despite their detractors, had some pretty high standards in staff training. I did a secret shopper gig there for mikes and had some great fun popping in with a lavalier and a minidisc hidden about my person testing the level of knowledge of the staffers on some Neumann products. The people on test, whilst they didn't get everything right straight away, checked out well on the whole and had specs up online, discussed ordering information and offered to set up a test session (when you could easily do that for mikes) very quickly.

It's a shame.

Reg


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Monobass
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: desmond]
      #610363 - 30/04/08 11:08 PM
Quote desmond:

But it's bad news for the industry as a whole.




Why? Sure it might be a signifier of the recession but I don't think anyone didn't see that coming of late.

They were a lousy company who did nothing to maintain any kind of good relationship with their customers.

To just assume it's specifically bad news for the industry rather than the economy as a whole is the same as the major record labels crying 'told you so' when some old Dinosaur like EMI goes down.

People with enough money aren't going to stop wanting Moogs and Prophets anymore than they are going to stop wanting Radiohead CDs. There'll be a few months of hard times ahead for those directly involved but it's hardly going to bring the industry down. The sub-prime and buy-to-let mortgages will see to that!


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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
Posts: 8
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610368 - 30/04/08 11:16 PM
I was until this morning an employee of Sound Control in Salford.

I can probably fill in some details for people and will be happy to provide any info that I know.

So far...

This morning 14 (or possibly 12 - its been a long day!) of the 26 Sound Control stores were closed and the permanently locked. The stock from these stores is apparently being moved to the remaining stores for sorting.

ALL of the staff at these stores were made redundant.

Then at the remaining stores (I'll try to get a list for everyone tomorrow) the staff were randomly selected for redundancy or to stay (I was one of the unlucky ones). Everyone at head office has been made redundant. This apparently totalled 166 staff laid off at the last count.

Before there are any more posts bad mouthing the stores / staff please think about the fact that we're not getting paid the money that we are owed, and as was quoted by a colleague of mine "we're just as pissed off as you are!".
This is not the fault of the shop staff, please dont take any of it out on them. They didnt know this was coming.

Anyway, we were informed that the remaining stores will be open for the next 12 weeks. During this time the administrators will try to find a buyer for the company. If this does not happen the remaining stores will cease trading at the end of this period.

For now the remaining stores will continue to trade existing stock as normally as they can. Feel free to go in if you are concerned. As far as I am aware warranties are with the manufacturer not the shop so they will still be valid (though I'm not entirely sure how)

The main remaining stores (that I can remember) are...

Manchester Salford 0161 877 6262
Leeds East 0113 245 6415
London Oxford Rd (0207) 631 4200
Turnkey (see website)
Birmingham (0121) 248 5868
Southampton (02380) 829 189

Please spare a thought for the people that have lost their jobs and for those who still face losing theirs. If staff dont seem receptive please understand why.


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comradec
active member


Joined: 21/09/03
Posts: 1609
Loc: Stockton-on-Tees, UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610371 - 30/04/08 11:24 PM
Well said, Seye. It's the fat cats at the top of the company and in the banking sector who are responsible for this problem, not the ordinary workers on the shop floor.

I'm facing redundancy myself during the summer and it's not a good situation to be in, but at least I know I'll get paid for the work I do in the time I have left.

When we complain about the service we get from individual staff at music outlets, we don't always know what stresses they're under, how often they've been denied opportunities for training to get the knowledge we expect of them, the pressures on them to close the deal, and so on.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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hogberto
new member


Joined: 02/09/02
Posts: 430
Loc: scotland
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610372 - 30/04/08 11:25 PM
seye.

thanks for posting here.

hope things work out for you.

where's head office? it was originally in dunfermline, but i'm not sure whether they shifted it down south when they expanded out of scotland.

surely the vacuum will be filled in due course - central scotland could be left with very little indeed in the way of MI retailers - but it may take some time.

i suppose it's easy for the directors at times like this to blame the credit crunch, the impending recession etc. but as often as not it's just good old-fashioned bad management.


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Gary M
Audio Technica


Joined: 18/04/01
Posts: 985
Loc: Northwood, London
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Monobass]
      #610373 - 30/04/08 11:30 PM
best of luck to all the staff that have lost their jobs. No mater what you thought of the service this is peoples lives and i hope they have no trouble in finding work.

I think this will have a massive impact on the industry, Many people knew something was brewing its just a shame that it had to go like this. I suppose as they say 'watch this space'

p.s. surprised its not in SOS news.


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Jamus



Joined: 17/02/08
Posts: 20
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610377 - 30/04/08 11:41 PM
Hey dude

Sorry to hear you lost your job.

I work for Sound Control too and was one of the lucky ones. Although none of us who are left are not out the woods yet. After the company or shop is sold we could still be out.

This whole thing sucks bug style. Anyhoo just to add to what you were saying, the following scottish stores are still open:

Edinburgh
Glasgow City
Dunfermline

We lost a few stores up here.

I hope you guys take heed of what my man ubove said. Folks have lost there jobs. Folks with families and mortgages.

And whether you liked the stores or not, the UK has a lot less music retailers in it now.

An spare a thought for Pat Kelly, who started up Sound control with his mate and built it up from a small store to the UK largest music retailer........

He was told to clear out his desk and get out!!!!!


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Jamus



Joined: 17/02/08
Posts: 20
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610378 - 30/04/08 11:43 PM
Quote comradec:

Well said, Seye. It's the fat cats at the top of the company and in the banking sector who are responsible for this problem, not the ordinary workers on the shop floor.






Actually the bank pulled the plug on Sound Control. The directors were trying to get private investment in to save jobs but the Bank of Scotland pulled the plug on them before they could


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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
Posts: 8
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610380 - 30/04/08 11:47 PM
Thanks guys.

The head office is still in dunfirmline but is now shut.

The administrators will be setting up the contact points tommorrow (apparently).

comradec - sorry to hear about your situation.

I'd like to defend the staff. A lot of them are very knowledgable. We actually used to recieve a lot of email commendations from customers who were extremely happy with the service. Unfortunately people tend to remember the one bad member of staff in a store rather than the 10 good ones.
Some of us were active in the industry and knew the products because we used them every day outside of the stores. In our store alone we had 2 recording engineers, 2 live engineers, 2 DJ's and several musicians.

We were always under a lot of stress, our jobs entailed far more than any other I've come across in the retail sector. These are not just monkeys stcking shelves. When you place an order they usually have to chase it through every stage from getting a price to arranging delivery.

Jamus - Good luck mate. Not much more I can say.


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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
Posts: 8
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Jamus]
      #610383 - 30/04/08 11:55 PM
Quote Jamus:

Quote comradec:

Well said, Seye. It's the fat cats at the top of the company and in the banking sector who are responsible for this problem, not the ordinary workers on the shop floor.






Actually the bank pulled the plug on Sound Control. The directors were trying to get private investment in to save jobs but the Bank of Scotland pulled the plug on them before they could



In all fairness I think all of us inside the company know exactly where people should be pointing fingers. I wish there was a way of punishing people for corporate negligence leading to the collapse of a company.

We all knew where the company was haemmorraging money. We kept saying it but no one listened. There was no excuse for things getting this bad.

Its a bit late for that now though. I cant see the point in dwelling on it.

As I say, I'd just like people to spare a thought for all those who have been made redundant with no notice.


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leslawrenson



Joined: 14/03/06
Posts: 2509
Loc: Outside Mothercare
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610392 - 01/05/08 12:15 AM
This is all very sad indeed.

I, too, got one of those "poaching" emails from Dolphin. It does seem a little insensitive but, as Steve says, that's business!

It would be nice to think that Dolphin will employ some of those who have lost their jobs.


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Jamus



Joined: 17/02/08
Posts: 20
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610394 - 01/05/08 12:21 AM
Quote Seye:


In all fairness I think all of us inside the company know exactly where people should be pointing fingers. I wish there was a way of punishing people for corporate negligence leading to the collapse of a company.

We all knew where the company was haemmorraging money. We kept saying it but no one listened. There was no excuse for things getting this bad.

Its a bit late for that now though. I cant see the point in dwelling on it.

As I say, I'd just like people to spare a thought for all those who have been made redundant with no notice.




Yup a whole load of bad decisions!!!!

And as an in joke... the legand continues!!!!!

That was a joke bringing that stuff in. and so many other stuff.

Cheers Paul!!!!


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Jamus



Joined: 17/02/08
Posts: 20
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610395 - 01/05/08 12:21 AM
And yeah


the main thing is the staff, the families and anyone else effected.

Spare a thought


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colink



Joined: 30/01/07
Posts: 8
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610396 - 01/05/08 12:42 AM
I'm very sad to read this. I've never had less than exceptional service from Turnkey via mail order, or Sound Control in person. Dolphin have been terrible.

I've been using SC in Edinburgh since the mid 80s and before it arrived here had been over at the Dunfermline store. The staff have always been friendly and helpful with a willingness to do deals to match online prices.

For anyone who doesn't know, or who would be interested, Pat Kelly worked with the Skids and it was the lack of a decent guitar and tech shop that led to Sound Control coming about. Set up to fill a hole in the market and did so exceptionally well.

Edinburgh has just lost one guitar shop, Live Music, in the last few weeks along with a great guitar tech guy so I am hoping SC hangs in in Edinburgh. Other than that we've got precious little left. An end of an era if they go and I'm not about to start buying guitars over the internet that I can't try out in person first so no idea what I'll do.


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13140
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610411 - 01/05/08 06:40 AM
Quote comradec:

Well said, Seye. It's the fat cats at the top of the company and in the banking sector who are responsible for this problem, not the ordinary workers on the shop floor.




Possibly, but the CEO also lent the company £5 million of his own money at a derisory 2% to try to keep it going. He'll have lost that (as well as his job).

But yes, all the employees deserve some respect and sympathy: even those not made redundant must be in a very uncertain position.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Boston Green



Joined: 21/09/07
Posts: 408
Loc: East Sussex
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610413 - 01/05/08 07:15 AM
I've had various crap experiences with Turnkey, I won't go into them again.

Over the last month though i've had to do alot of equipment purchasing for my new PA Hire company, I spread it around to save some ££'s here and there, and because of stock I ended up making quite a few purchases from Turnkey (despite my better judgement).

I have to say, all these recent web-buys went very well. A few glitches ...

Ordered a couple of sm58's (with switches), they only had one ..... so didnt send any. I phoned and the web order guy was very helpful, understood my frustration, agreed that the warehouse should of at lease sent the one. They ended up sending one with and one without the switch, and some Neutrik XLR as compo - sorted.

Ordered a 4u Gator case, they emailed me to say it was out of stock, they sent me a 6u as replacement at no extra charge - sorted.

I have to say the web order staff have been very helpful in dealing my recent purchases and problems ......

Hehe, and sounds like I got lucky, as the last web order item I was waiting on (my comp/gate/limiter) arrived yesterday

Can I claim a prize for the last box Turnkey Web shifted ?

--------------------
www.BandSoundHire.com
PA Hire in Brighton, Sussex, Surrey and Kent.


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
Posts: 558
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: philetaylor]
      #610417 - 01/05/08 07:49 AM
Quote philetaylor:

one interesting thing is that 3 directors resigned on 09/02/08, Raymond Miller and Alan Gavin who both held 45000 shares. Also Grahame Burgess who was their chartered management accountant and holder of 22143 shares resigned.




There is a considerable mileage in that fact, not least that Ray Miller is now running Gibson UK.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610423 - 01/05/08 08:12 AM
I always got good service from Turnkey but have not bought anything in the last three years or so.

For me it was never so good after the renovation. It did look like one of the old electrical spare parts workshops of previous decades but it seemed to work.

It seems to me that so many companies start small, expand at a fast rate and then collapse. What is wrong with starting small and staying small?

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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Brian Moynihan
member


Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 677
Loc: Boston
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #610432 - 01/05/08 08:37 AM
Quote Ian Stewart:


It seems to me that so many companies start small, expand at a fast rate and then collapse. What is wrong with starting small and staying small?




I've though about this too, I think the whole nature of business education in the Western world teaches the ideal of ever expanding business. You are a failure if you simply 'maintain' a set size and service level. I guess it's connected to how the measure of success used by industry and the government is solely profit, but never anything like a greater social value or the happiness, security and job satisfaction of the staff at the business!

A funny story about 15 years ago I was working in a small office of a huge pharmaceutical company, my job was somewhere between 2 and 3 on a rung of janitor (1) to CEO (10). Me and my office pal used to talk about the company circulars they sent out every month, it seemed they were buying this company, expanding here, swallowing up this contractor here, expanding into Malaysia etc etc Even though we were small fish, we used to both say that the place only had a few years left before it went bust, because it was expanding like a balloon, even though all the announcements kept saying how good the business was doing. About 4 years later we'd both left for other places, but I couldn't help but chuckle when I received legal documents to sign for cashing in my shares as the company was being dissolved by the administrators.


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Paradigm X
member


Joined: 25/01/04
Posts: 260
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610437 - 01/05/08 08:55 AM
For those of those made redundant, you have my sympathies.

It happened to me once, literally turn up to work one day and found out company bust, no job.

You can talk to the department of trade and industry (DTI). I managed to get a months wages (or most of it, was a while ago now) from them due to the circumstances, and a tax/NI break too. Have a look on their website or ring them up.

Hope thats useful.


Regards

Ben

--------------------
http://www.paradigmx.com


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13140
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610441 - 01/05/08 09:03 AM
For employees, start here , although the administrators should have dished out the usual (and actually quite helpful) government leaflets.

Subject to the £330p.w. limit, employees' claims (including any arrears of holiday pay etc) are guaranteed by the government.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Mike Craig
member


Joined: 05/10/03
Posts: 592
Loc: Norwich (A Fine City)
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610442 - 01/05/08 09:07 AM
From Turnkey's website....

_________________________________

Apr 30 2008

No orders can be placed on this website.



Please note:

John Reid and Bill Dawson of Deloitte, the business advisory firm, have been appointed Administrators of Sound Control Holdings Limited (“Holdings”) and certain of its subsidiaries (“the Group”) following applications to the courts by the Group’s Directors.


The joint administrators manage the affairs, business, and property of the company, for the duration of the administration.

The joint administrators act as agents of the company, and do not personally adopt any contracts that may have been entered into by the company, prior to their appointment.


The Group operates from 26 stores across the UK, under the brand names Sound Control, Media Tools, Turnkey and Soho Sound House.


The Group has been impacted by increased competition from the internet, and the directors had been pursuing a strategy to sell the business. This did not prove successful and accordingly they sought the appointment of John Reid and Bill Dawson as Administrators.

Following a review of the Group’s operations the Administrators have made the difficult decision to close 10 of the Group’s trading locations and bring to an end its telesales and internet sales activities.

“The Administrators welcome interest in the business and assets of the Group and are already in discussions with a number of interested parties to explore a possible sale.

The Administrator will continue to trade the remaining 16 stores, selling high quality musical instruments to the public.


The Group's head office is based in Dunfermline and has various trading locations throughout the UK.


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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
Posts: 8
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610451 - 01/05/08 09:27 AM
Thanks for all the info and good wishes

From Turnkey...
Turnkey store, and the following Sound Control stores remain open for business:

Birmingham
Bristol
Edinburgh
Glasgow City
Leicester
London
Manchester Salford
Norwich
Sheffield
Dundee
Newcastle
Stockton
Stoke
Dunfermline



Unfortunately the following stores are now closed.

Derby
Glasgow West
Hull
Kirkcaldy
Leeds East
Manchester City
Milton Keynes
Nottingham
Preston
Southampton

However I'm pretty sure that Newcastle is shut though so that might not be quite right.


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Jez (mahoobley)
monkey


Joined: 21/03/03
Posts: 2212
Loc: East Midlands
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610452 - 01/05/08 09:31 AM
Wow, this is a shock.

I worked for Sound Control on Oxford Street for almost a year up until about two years ago. It was weird going back a few months ago to find most of my friends who had worked there had all left rather suddenly due to some rather odd changes. I was also a bit surprised when calling my local store recently to order something to find they couldn't transfer stock from other stores any more!

I'm glad to hear the people I got on with most there have already managed to find new jobs before this all happened. I just hope the two old bosses of mine who moved over to Turnkey get out of this ok.

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk


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Skyline
member


Joined: 05/09/02
Posts: 345
Loc: UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610455 - 01/05/08 09:45 AM
Quote:

In all fairness I think all of us inside the company know exactly where people should be pointing fingers. I wish there was a way of punishing people for corporate negligence leading to the collapse of a company.

We all knew where the company was haemmorraging money. We kept saying it but no one listened. There was no excuse for things getting this bad.





As a matter of interest, what was the problem do you think? I'm a Chartered Accountant and have a good understanding of these things, and curious as to how an organisation can collapse when the market was ok, e.g. guitar sales have been enjoying a boom the like of which no one has seen in decades.

Corporate collapse is often the result of many factors but often with one big one sticking out from the rest. Examples:

(i) Over-trading, i.e. expanding by acquisitions funded from large bank loans, and if sales take a slight downturn cash flow slows and can't service the loan repayments.
(ii) Owners taking too much out of the company in the form of salaries, cars, dividends.
(iii) Poor buying decisions with stock then having to be chopped out at inadequate margins.
(iv)Poor and/or late management information leading the owners to not understand that gross profits are not covering ballooning overheads.

Personally I never used Sound Control because whenever I read their mags/flyers the prices always seemed a tad high to me.

As for Dolphin, yes I've had the email which is fair enough, but I stopped using them as I bought from them on two occasions and on each occasion my credit card was defrauded shortly after and I had to have new ones. I'm not saying it was anything to do with them but I'm not taking the chance again.


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13140
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Mike Craig]
      #610471 - 01/05/08 10:32 AM
Mike - that's the standard bumph which ought to be on the website (and every invoice, order, blah blah blah). The Turnkey site makes clear they are not accepting online orders.

I'm wondering why it's not repeated on Sound Control's site, which appears in all respects to be in "business as usual" mode at the moment (although I have not tried placing an order to test this theory!). The Deloitte press release says they are suspending internet sales.

The Carillon site is still down.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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pazzle



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 1
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610476 - 01/05/08 10:46 AM
Firstly, my sympathies to those left out of a job...I've worked in music retail for ten years. This situation has been on the cards for years though. The 21st century business model of box-shifting massive quantities on tiny margins was never sustainable. The 'Tesco mentality', driven by a desire to capture the whole market, is destructive and in the long term, bad for consumers. It damages the business infrastructure established over many years of local music retailers, who offer close-to-home service and advice. I wonder how much advice I've given, how many demos that I have personally done, have resulted in a sale for Sound Control or Turnkey. (Try asking a website twenty questions to identify which product is right for you.)
We have long suspected that certain individuals at the top of these companies are willfully running their businesses into the ground, knowing that in many cases their liability will be 'limited'. The knock-on effect of this particular event will be significant, for consumers, retailers and suppliers.
Suppliers may not be able to recoup what they are owed, and this might be passed on to the rest of the industry. Customers who have recently purchased from Sound Control or Turnkey, or those who do so in the next three months, may find themselves having to deal directly with the manufacturer if they have problems with their goods.
If people use small independent retailers the money they spend stays in the local economy and circulates, benefiting everyone in the community. Buying from large corporate organisations benefits a very small number of fat cats.
Considering the current economic climate, I fear that other companies operating similar business models could soon suffer the same fate as Sound Control.


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2310
Loc: . ...
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610479 - 01/05/08 10:49 AM
A company is insolvent if liabilities (excluding equity capital) exceeds its assets.

Knowing what those liabilities and assets are from day-to-day and keeping them in healthy balance, is one of the core tasks of management.

There has been a trend in the UK for quite some time, for the more 'creative' of accountants to be able to take a generous view of what could constitute an asset and an ever narrower view of what is and is not a liability.

At the same time, management of UK and US companies have lost sight of the classical goals of the firm, seeking to expand their corporations, at the cost of making a profit. (Galbraith 'The New Industrial State').

The usual method for growth has been to raise new equity capital by issuing shares. In exchange, the new shareholders want to see either an increase in the value of their shares, or a return on their investment in the form of dividends. If the company has a track record of diluting the value of individual shares by the issuance of more and more stock and it also cannot pay dividends because it has chosen growth over profit, investors are unlikely to be banging down the door, chequebooks in hand.

To get around this, UK companies have been turning to the banks for credit. This of course, has the very obvious effect of reducing profit even more.

The demise of Sound Control is a classical example of a small company seeking to grow in an already overcrowded market, where potential for growth is just not there. To do this through debt is to make your demise inevitable.

The price sensitivity (technically known as price elasticity of demand) for MI is about 2. That is to say, a 1% increase in price leads to a 2% decrease in sales.

The bad news is that most turnover is being made with digital equipment and software and here price sensitivity is far greater and can in some sectors be as high as ten. Rather like fuel, you only have to be slightly more expensive to sell almost nothing.

The competition to UK MI retailers is no longer the other guy on the High Street, but eBay, Dolphin, Music Store and Thomann. Here is where the price is set and it is pretty much set in stone for the retailer. To charge more is to sell nothing.

If the price is a given, then the only way to generate more profit is to cut costs.

This is done, firstly, by buying directly in Shanghai and Taiwan from the manufacturer and also buying directly from US, UK and German manufacturers.

Secondly, all costs such as wages, credit, rents, etc., have to be parred to the very bone.

In the UK, retailers of all types have relied too long on high mark-ups in rented shops by publicly owned companies, loaded with debt. In food retailing, the UK has been a very happy hunting ground for Lidl and Aldi, both totally private businesses, using low mark-up and always owning their shops outright.

Both Lidl and Aldi have been growing slowly across Europe for the past 50 years. You cannot become a shareholder in these companies, because they are owned outright by one person. The same applies to Music Store and Thomann. Each is owned by one person.

The owner of Music Store even had an Aldi sign in his office. That was his business model. Once when accused of being a box-shifter, he laughed and said "Well, do you expect me to not shift them then!"

Sound Control seemed to abuse the all the rules of business and therefore the market is healthier and better off without it.


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Legacy..F.Yeah!



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 3
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610481 - 01/05/08 11:08 AM
I was, up until yesterday, Administrator for Soundcontrol [Forum Admin: for clarification, this poster is NOT to be confused with the offically appointed Administrator for Sound Control, which is Deloitte] and I have to say it was the toughest challenge i've ever faced.
Because everything was controlled by the Head Office in Dunfirmlaine who were quite often incompetent it was very difficult to correct mistakes that were being made, our Management were constantly battling to get the Stocks required, customers were being let down because Orders werent being placed or Transfered quick enough to the Customer.
I feel (to blow my own trumpet) that they just made the one person that gave it all the Customer Service/ discipline needed, the Boot...it goes to show that they really do not have a clue what they are doing, I have to point out that Sound Control Staff go outside the Boundaries to help the Customer whilst being paid a very small amount in doing so so they are not to be blamed.

Even the Location Managers have no choices as far as i'm concerned, the whole thing is doomed from today..which is a shame for the customer as prices will now increase!

In the meantime I may lose my flat & was due to be married whilst some big boss is escaping all this on a golfing holiday..think on and here's hope for the small business!

Edited by Forum Admin (03/05/08 12:27 PM)


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pups



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 1
Loc: uk
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610482 - 01/05/08 11:15 AM
They were contempories of ours at TSC/Computerwarehouse for 21years sad to see them go.

We are currently recruiting for our music division so if there are any product specialists/sales people looking for jobs please contact

Mark Mccormack on 0208 400 4327 or send cv's to

mark.mccormack@computerwarehouse.co.u k


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Legacy..F.Yeah!]
      #610484 - 01/05/08 11:21 AM
I assume you don't mean you are/were the court-appointed administrator from Deloitte (!). Commiserations anyway. But retail prices will not go up, especially on the edge of a recession with retailers in all sectors reporting reduced sales. We're just seeing a shake-out, which happens in straitened economic times, and the ones with the weaker business models fail first.

There's some sort of Darwinian logic about it, which leaves the sector as a whole stronger and more competitive. It was ever thus. That's not to take away anything from the victims in these situations.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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directresolution.com



Joined: 13/09/06
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610486 - 01/05/08 11:28 AM
Quote Steve Hill:



There's some sort of Darwinian logic about it, which leaves the sector as a whole stronger and more competitive. It was ever thus. That's not to take away anything from the victims in these situations.




I thought the goverment (tax payer)comes in and start throwing money at you

I too am an ex staff member (who isn't) mixed feelings. Quite a shock though.

--------------------
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home of the DARC audio computer


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The Bunk



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610491 - 01/05/08 11:33 AM
First of all, my sympathy and best wishes for all the staff that may lose out on this.

A great deal of what's been said above has talked about the figures, the numbers, the accountants...and a little, but not enough IMO, about the people, particularly front-of-house. And that seems sadly typical of a way a lot of businesses are run today, despite what various company "mission statements" may say. My experiences in Turnkey, whilst never unpleasant, usually deterred me from going there; I'm a bit of a musical novice and always felt uncomfortable in there. That is not necessarily the fault of the staff in there. It is a management training issue.

Sound Control was generally better but whenever I went in there, it was like a new set of faces every time. So there was, I presume, high staff turnover. That's not a good sign, but my guess is that accountants (and no offence intended to any here who are) ain't looking at staff turnover, they're looking at bottom lines.

The store that I go to to buy my gear now is probably overstaffed; it almost certainly is if you go by the accountant's preferred ratio of wages being 50% of turnover. However, in the several years I've been going there, I see pretty much the same faces, always get served promptly and without any condescension whatsoever. I might pay slightly more than elsewhere, but I'll go back, time and time again. Because I like the people there and shopping is a pleasant experience.

I work in a customer-focused industry (health and fitness), and if accountants started running the place, we'd soon fail. Our particular strength is our staff, especially front-of-house and front line staff; our wage bill is over the top, but we make a profit, hit budgets, and keep the punters coming back. There's a perfectly adequately equipped competitor down the road from us; people choose to stay with us because of our staff.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a go at accountants!! But, personally, while the financiers obviously have their place, there is too much reliance on them. We are fast forgetting that people really can make a difference. Look at Terminal 5; the whole fiasco started because they forgot the most important resource they had - their staff - couldn't get into the damn building in the first place on the first morning. They just hadn't thought that far down the chain.

It really is time we stopped talking numbers and talked people.

Edited by HandM (01/05/08 11:36 AM)


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Imran500



Joined: 25/03/08
Posts: 1038
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Legacy..F.Yeah!]
      #610495 - 01/05/08 11:45 AM
Quote Legacy..F.Yeah!:

I was, up until yesterday, Administrator for Soundcontrol and I have to say it was the toughest challenge i've ever faced.
Because everything was controlled by the Head Office in Dunfirmlaine who were quite often incompetent it was very difficult to correct mistakes that were being made, our Management were constantly battling to get the Stocks required, customers were being let down because Orders werent being placed or Transfered quick enough to the Customer.






I totally believe that somewhere higher up there was some serious incompetence. If you are working on the frontline you are bound to be giving loads of feedback on stock problems - after that it's up to the bods in charge to sort it.

I was a bit harsh on them in my earlier post, but to re-iterate most of the staff were really helpful and knew exactly what they were talking about. It's clearly not an average retail job and they needed to know a fair deal to offer a good service.

The reason I used to go back there despite the problems I encountered was because it's nice to pop up to Denmark St and potter around the music shops as well pick up your gear.

The Rose Morris Pro Audio shop isn't bad but Turnkey had loads of staff all over the place, plus their starting prices were always lower than Rose Morris as well


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Skyline
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Legacy..F.Yeah!]
      #610496 - 01/05/08 11:45 AM
Quote Legacy..F.Yeah!:

I was, up until yesterday, Administrator for Soundcontrol and I have to say it was the toughest challenge i've ever faced.
Because everything was controlled by the Head Office in Dunfirmlaine who were quite often incompetent it was very difficult to correct mistakes that were being made, our Management were constantly battling to get the Stocks required, customers were being let down because Orders werent being placed or Transfered quick enough to the Customer.
I feel (to blow my own trumpet) that they just made the one person that gave it all the Customer Service/ discipline needed, the Boot...it goes to show that they really do not have a clue what they are doing, I have to point out that Sound Control Staff go outside the Boundaries to help the Customer whilst being paid a very small amount in doing so so they are not to be blamed.

Even the Location Managers have no choices as far as i'm concerned, the whole thing is doomed from today..which is a shame for the customer as prices will now increase!

In the meantime I may lose my flat & was due to be married whilst some big boss is escaping all this on a golfing holiday..think on and here's hope for the small business!




My deepest sympathies. The fallout from these things is very real to employees who tried hard to serve their customers despite admin issues.

It sounds like the catastrophe was not so much about a flawed business model as a dash for growth that ruptured the systems and internal communication processes that made the initial simple growth possible. One shop clones its successful model to make two, three, etc. until a step change is needed in terms of financing, IT systems, HR, etc. Many small, ambitious firms fall over at this point; when the owners and/or managers simply don't have the skills to scale all the processes up at the same pace as the growth in their personal ambitions.

One of the most crucial hurdles in rapid growth is to implement the economies of scale that come with centralising many processes to a head office, leaving the shops to perform only those tasks essential to front-end customer service, whilst at the same time retaining the 'good bits' and the spirit of the old, smaller (but no longer feasible) structure.

I hope things work out for you in new endeavours.


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Kwaidan
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610505 - 01/05/08 12:00 PM
What a sad loss for Sound Control, I know Dave Hopkins and the staff at Dunfermline, they've always been great, i'm glad that store is still open, because Sound Control is the only stockist in the UK of Elektron gear, and i always get great deals too. My nearest store was Kirkcaldy and that's shut, so it's a trip to Dunfermline for me next time round when i require gear etc.


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The Bunk]
      #610511 - 01/05/08 12:12 PM
Quote HandM:


It really is time we stopped talking numbers and talked people.




Excellent post HandM.

I also worked freelance for a company that stopped treating people well, with good fees, but instead brought in a tough director who bullied and insulted people into doing more work for less money, while saying she could loose all the staff and the company wouldn't suffer at all. Only the artistic director was important. She also pointed out that it was inappropriate for staff to even comment on management decisions. The company has attracted nearly a million pounds of lottery money but can't get anyone to work for them. They are also considered a company that does substandard work and few people use them.
Compare that with a company my wife has just done consultancy work with. They pay well over the rates so they get good staff and keep them.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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hogberto
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610526 - 01/05/08 12:52 PM
this has made the bbc news now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7377203.stm


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Forum AdminAdministrator



Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 2311
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Gary M]
      #610528 - 01/05/08 12:53 PM
Quote Gary M:

best of luck to all the staff that have lost their jobs. No mater what you thought of the service this is peoples lives and i hope they have no trouble in finding work.




All at SOS sympathise with SC staff who have been adversely affected by this recent event. That's why we are not removing the TSC job advert post from this thread, in case it helps some of you find employment.

Quote:

I think this will have a massive impact on the industry...




It WILL.

Quote:

p.s. surprised its not in SOS news.




It is now - until there was an official Administrator's press release available, it would have been wrong of us to speculate. The SOS news story is here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=10049

Ian G

--------------------
SOS Gear Videos now screening on Sound On Sound TV


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ellenne



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 1
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: oggyb]
      #610535 - 01/05/08 01:08 PM
Quote:

Are we certain the Leeds branches are closing? That will be a shame, if so.




Leeds City branch on Kirkstall Road is still trading, I rang them to check.

It won't help in any practical way but I'd just like to say how sorry I am to hear about all this, and particularly for those who have lost their jobs. I've bought quite a few things from SC over the years and have always found them friendly and helpful, as well as generally willing to match internet prices if asked. Until it moved to its present site a few months ago, SC Leeds City was 5 minutes' walk from my office and so was effectively my local music shop!

I hope something can be salvaged from it.


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Legacy..F.Yeah!



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 3
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610542 - 01/05/08 01:25 PM
I assume you don't mean you are/were the court-appointed administrator from Deloitte

God no!

And whether or not Prices go up or down doesn't really matter to me anyway..but they will go up! haha!

Anyway big thanks to all of you who do show sympathy to us who lost our jobs I certainly appreciate it so thanks


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JonR
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610545 - 01/05/08 01:32 PM
I just wanted to express my sympathy for those who are now out of work.

I have been buying kit from the Glasgow city branch for decades now and the staff were always helpful and friendly, in particular the guy who runs the bass department is a top bloke who made each visit to the store a pleasure.

John


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Kwackman



Joined: 07/11/02
Posts: 1338
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: JonR]
      #610561 - 01/05/08 02:05 PM
As others have said, sympathies to those of you out of work.

I remember when Thatched Cottage Audio went bust years ago.
In the days before emails and internet (at least for us ordiary folks) they were sending out leaflets explaining multitrack recordings etc. I'd used them for years by mail order building up my home studio. They were always great on the phone and very helpful.
After months of hard thinking, I rang to order my first 8track machine, costing £1500 which was a fortune to me back then (Still is!). I rang back the next day and got no reply. I kept ringing and eventually someone answered. It was the guy who'd taken my order, and he was now telling me they'd gone bust and he was just clearing out the office of personal stuff. But, on the previous day when I placed my order, he thought something was going wrong, and God bless him, he hadn't put my order through (and hadn't taken the money) just in case. I was SO grateful the someone about to lose their job was kind enough to think of the plight of a small customer.


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Legacy..F.Yeah!



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 3
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610570 - 01/05/08 02:16 PM
with us, nobody knew until yesterday I swear (well maybe one person did be he claims he did not)


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thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610578 - 01/05/08 02:42 PM
Quote Seye:

Quote Jamus:

Quote comradec:

Well said, Seye. It's the fat cats at the top of the company and in the banking sector who are responsible for this problem, not the ordinary workers on the shop floor.






Actually the bank pulled the plug on Sound Control. The directors were trying to get private investment in to save jobs but the Bank of Scotland pulled the plug on them before they could



In all fairness I think all of us inside the company know exactly where people should be pointing fingers. I wish there was a way of punishing people for corporate negligence leading to the collapse of a company.

We all knew where the company was haemmorraging money. We kept saying it but no one listened. There was no excuse for things getting this bad.

Its a bit late for that now though. I cant see the point in dwelling on it.

As I say, I'd just like people to spare a thought for all those who have been made redundant with no notice.



at cats at the top of the company and in the banking sector who are responsible for this problem, not the ordinary workers on the shop floor.
the irony is that those fat cats on the top they will be awarded some award or another for their services in finance sector and the growth of UK economy at some point, regardless of the billions of money and they thousands of jobs that deliberately lost...remember me!

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... *DELETED* new [Re: Ben]
      #610580 - 01/05/08 02:49 PM
Advertising and self promotion breach, and just generally in bad taste bearing the nature of this thread.

Take this as a warning..................and I never give two.

Post deleted by Zukan

Edited by Zukan (01/05/08 04:33 PM)


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comradec
active member


Joined: 21/09/03
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610584 - 01/05/08 02:53 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:


You could go to Dolphin Music but better still pick up the 'phone and dial ***** ****** for **********! They will accept any Sound Control money off vouchers you may have AND give you 10 months interest free credit with the backing of The Arts Council!





This, from someone who has never posted before, is just exploitative advertising.

And when did the Arts Council start backing interest free credit schemes? Bullshit.




Edited to remove self promotional contact details from the quote.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke

Edited by 0VU (01/05/08 04:53 PM)


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Skyline]
      #610585 - 01/05/08 02:58 PM
Skyline....2 words...BROADBAND INTERNET!


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610588 - 01/05/08 02:59 PM
TAKE IT AWAY SCHEME....Look it up!


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610589 - 01/05/08 03:02 PM
Quote comradec:



And when did the Arts Council start backing interest free credit schemes? Bullshit.




Its here Arts council scheme

This is for information only - I am not going off topic and explain why I really dislike the Arts council.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610591 - 01/05/08 03:03 PM
I don't think we should give too much sympathy to the directors....they never did when they destroyed local music stores when they were flush with RBS's money!


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610593 - 01/05/08 03:06 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:

TAKE IT AWAY SCHEME....Look it up!




this does not excuse the fact that it is, as was pointed out, a post designed to capitalise on another company's misfortune.

most of the people here have been well-mannered enough to think first of the employees who have been affected by this before their profit margins. it's a shame you clearly can't.

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610596 - 01/05/08 03:10 PM
There are enough emotions around at the moment so I'm assuming SmokyB3 as a new member is not familiar with the rules on advertising here (which he signed up to a few minutes ago...) and will instead just extend a warm welcome.

As a generality, all posters can assume that all forum members can find alternative suppliers for their needs in future, in the unlikely event that they were not already aware of several!

And actually that Arts Council deal probably is worth a bit of a mention... I had not heard of that particular use of taxpayers' funds before now.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/05/08 03:11 PM)


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #610597 - 01/05/08 03:12 PM
No...I'm with Dolphin on this one. Business is business.
And I certainly shan't shed any tears over Sound Controls downfall! They won't be the last this year that's for sure!


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comradec
active member


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610602 - 01/05/08 03:18 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:

No...I'm with Dolphin on this one. Business is business.
And I certainly shan't shed any tears over Sound Controls downfall! They won't be the last this year that's for sure!




In which case I hope you're the next one.

Business is business, that's true, but this is not a forum for advertising.

The tears to be shed are for the many workers who've been thrown out of work by this debacle, not for the company as such. Lots of families will be badly affected by this, but all you can think about is the potential for personal/business gain.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610603 - 01/05/08 03:22 PM
Quote comradec:

Lots of families will be badly affected by this, but all you can think about is the potential for personal/business gain.




well said.

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9165
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610604 - 01/05/08 03:22 PM
more to the point, advertising and self promotion are specifically prohibited in the forum rules to which each member has to actively agree prior to being able to post here.

as such..... any retailers seeking to make capital out of the unfortunate demise of the markets largest player, by posting here, and in these threads specifically, is going to do nowt but earn the despite of many users hereabouts.... NOT a clever plan...


(and one that will very quickly lead to being banned form the site)

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 131
Loc: Scotland
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610607 - 01/05/08 03:24 PM
Musicworld just made it onto my list of people never to buy anything from.
Good job SmokyB3.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #610608 - 01/05/08 03:31 PM
Comradec,

As has already been said many times it IS a shame for the employees as is always the case. But I didn't see any sympathy for the thousands of employees that were laid off because of Sound Controls ruthless aggresion with RBS's money! Not to mention music store owners who lost literally everything when a Sound Control put them out of business!


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #610609 - 01/05/08 03:32 PM
I always found Sound Control staff to be excellent when I went over to various branches to do training.

I wish them all the best in the world - I was in the same boat myself in the '80's when REW closed.

This is a sad day for the industry.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #610611 - 01/05/08 03:35 PM
John,

As I was in the 70's....but thankfully employees are better protected these days!


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610613 - 01/05/08 03:41 PM
Comradec

Good, now we have got the introductions out the way do you or other muso's think this may be the beginning of the end of supermarket, one size fits all, corprate music retailing?


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directresolution.com



Joined: 13/09/06
Posts: 594
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610614 - 01/05/08 03:43 PM
no

--------------------
www.directresolution.com
home of the DARC audio computer


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 131
Loc: Scotland
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610615 - 01/05/08 03:45 PM
Putting things in perspective;
I worked for Sound Control for 8 & 1/2 years.
Fortunately, I moved on to other things.
Unfortunately, others did not.
In glasgow alone, I can think of three guys who've been with the company 20 years or more.
Colin down in Manchester (Salford)is another 'lifer'.
These are people with kids, mortgages and no great expectancy of walking straight in to another job.

While the casualties contain many 'minimum wage' kids, they'll be ok.

My thoughts are with Big Al, Martin, Kenny G, Paul R, Danny P, John B, Ollie, Sandy, Andy G, Paul G, Jamie C.
All people who put SC on the map.

Thoughts also turn to some of the distributors who may have overextended, themselves by sending goods on credit.
I hope no-one undeserving goes bust as a result.
I know of one small amp manufacturer who's chasing £40,000, while rumours put the debt to Yamaha & Roland in the £millions.

Edited by The muso (01/05/08 03:47 PM)


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #610617 - 01/05/08 03:49 PM
John

A sad day for employees of Sound Control?...definitely...For suppliers?...a bloody disaster most likely, and don't forget THEIR employees, for musicians?...probably not in the longer term, for the music industry as a whole?...I think not!


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Parker Fly



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #610622 - 01/05/08 03:57 PM
Quote The muso:

Putting things in perspective;
I worked for Sound Control for 8 & 1/2 years.
Fortunately, I moved on to other things.
Unfortunately, others did not.
In glasgow alone, I can think of three guys who've been with the company 20 years or more.




Gaz Morris in Birmingham has done 25 years, exactly half of his life! A very sad day.


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Parker Fly



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #610623 - 01/05/08 03:58 PM
Quote The muso:

I know of one small amp manufacturer who's chasing £40,000, while rumours put the debt to Yamaha & Roland in the £millions.




The total debt is approximately £30m.


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jrbcm



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610624 - 01/05/08 04:00 PM
Anyone been to/had any contact with Turnkey today? I haven't been able to get through and no sign of the item I ordered yesterday. Are they still trading, and is the shop actually open?


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #610626 - 01/05/08 04:02 PM
last I heard, the outstanding Yamaha balance was in excess of 5 million... and i've heard indications that the Roland one was of similar magnitude...


the only word that comes readily to mind is OUCH!

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #610628 - 01/05/08 04:04 PM
Muso
You have put it into perspective perfectly!

The long term employees like the ones you have mentioned, who helped build the company from the beginning and are now of a certain age and with commitments this will be a terrible time for them.

As for the young kids of the last few years? Put it this way, when a Sound Control director told me last year how much stuff went "missing" every month via staff I was staggered! They will pick up jobs np problem!

Suppliers? I think Yamaha will be okay...thet were always wary of geeting "too much into bed" with Sound Control. Roland? Could be big problems there I fancy!

But the smaller suppliers and distributors might have real problems. Sound Control were not afraid to use their clout to put them into uncomfortable situations. I hope they will be okay but I suspect that some of them won't. And that will be a GENUINLY bad day for the industry!


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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610631 - 01/05/08 04:05 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:

Comradec

Good, now we have got the introductions out the way do you or other muso's think this may be the beginning of the end of supermarket, one size fits all, corprate music retailing?



From the last few posts you appear to be a small man with a big chip on his shoulder.

I hope your gloating makes you happy.
I certainly will never use MusicWorld now.

Muso - Colin was my boss until yesterday. He and the rest of the staff just looked broken when it happened. At least they get a bit of warning though. The manager at the Man City store had been (apparently) working there for nearly 20 yrs. He'd seen it be A1, Academy of Sound and then Sound Control. (Ironically it now has "A1 Locksmiths" posted on the door)
Everyone in that store was just turfed out and told that they were no longer needed.


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
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Loc: Scotland
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610633 - 01/05/08 04:11 PM
Quote Seye:





Muso - Colin was my boss until yesterday. He and the rest of the staff just looked broken when it happened.



I bet.
Were you there when the store got raided by blokes weilding machete?


Quote:

Everyone in that store was just turfed out and told that they were no longer needed.



Somewhere among the posts on the MI Pro article, someone said they are starting an action against SC over this kind of thing.
You should point them there;
http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/29485/BREAKING-NEWS-Sound-Control-files-for-a dministration?comment=100#comments

My comment there;
Quote:

For those who are, or are about to be made redundant, take heart.
Many former Sound Control employee's went on to do bigger and better things.
Andy Haldane started Merchant City Music.
Kip started Guitar Guitar
Eric Joseph started Mediaspec
David Brockett plays with Gary Mullen
Davy Robertson now tours with Bryan Adams.
The list is endless, but I've seen so many people waste their lives and potential because it's 'cool' to work in a music shop', going from 16 y/o to 40 in a heartbeat.
Don't mull over the past, go chase the dream

As regards the impact of SC's demise, to me, it was better the Devil you knew, than the Devil you didn't.

Someone once asked me "What is the secret of Sound Controls success", to which I replied "It's not the they're better than everyone else, it's that they're not quite as bad".

That pretty much sums up MI for the last 25 years, but times, they are a changing.

For a chuckle though, I'd be interested to see MI Pro doing another interview with Pat Kelly and raising some of the points he made in the previous one, about how he'd open a small store and do very well offering service, or what he said about those moaning about hardship should take a look at their 'own' buinesses.
All somewhat ironic considering.




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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610634 - 01/05/08 04:11 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:

As for the young kids of the last few years? Put it this way, when a Sound Control director told me last year how much stuff went "missing" every month via staff I was staggered! They will pick up jobs np problem!



This is just ignorant, untrue and possibly slanderous. These are decent hard working people who are now looking for work. Please show some respect for their situation.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610635 - 01/05/08 04:13 PM
Seye

At least I'm not a hypocrite by saying "this is a sad day for the industry". I don't think you will find many industry figures (outside of creditors) crying into their beer tonight!


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Wurlitzer
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #610637 - 01/05/08 04:14 PM
Quote Pete Standing Alone:

Quote Ian Stewart:


It seems to me that so many companies start small, expand at a fast rate and then collapse. What is wrong with starting small and staying small?




I've though about this too, I think the whole nature of business education in the Western world teaches the ideal of ever expanding business. You are a failure if you simply 'maintain' a set size and service level. I guess it's connected to how the measure of success used by industry and the government is solely profit, but never anything like a greater social value or the happiness, security and job satisfaction of the staff at the business!




Actually if the measure of success were solely profit, things like this might happen a good deal less.

I think it's more to do with the fact that since the dotcom boom, people have gotten accustomed to thinking of the measure of success purely in terms of market share. It doesn't matter HOW much money you're losing, as long as you're seen to be getting bigger, even if only on debt. All you need is some woolly way of indicating that business is bound to be profitable "one day", as long as it's big enough.

True, this worked for Amazon and Google. But then there are several thousand failed dotcom startups that it didn't work for.

Expanding is fine, as long as your expansion is based on something real. There's a lot to be said for just continuing to turn over a healthy profit day to day. God knows that's hard enough a lot of the time.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610639 - 01/05/08 04:19 PM
Saye,

It was one hell of a "shrinkage" figure that's for sure! And it certainly cannot have Sound Control to turn a profit!


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610641 - 01/05/08 04:21 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:

At least I'm not a hypocrite by saying "this is a sad day for the industry". I don't think you will find many industry figures (outside of creditors) crying into their beer tonight!




Nothing hypocritical by saying "this is a sad day for the industry"

It's a sad day for the staff and a sad day for the creditors and a sad day for the industry as a whole that another retailer goes to the wall.

In the ever extending search for the lowest price the retailers are going to the wall and everything will be on the internet only.

No-one is prepared to pay for service and fakes are getting more and more.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Wurlitzer]
      #610642 - 01/05/08 04:21 PM
Wurlitzer

I totally agree!


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Yago
Nice bloke


Joined: 16/10/07
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610643 - 01/05/08 04:23 PM
Hey Smokey , if you gonna flame or bait on an internet forum ....
Might not be a good idea to put your full name in your public profile :P


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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
Posts: 8
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Yago]
      #610645 - 01/05/08 04:28 PM
Yeah it means people can find pictures like this...


Smokey is on the left.



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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610646 - 01/05/08 04:29 PM
SMOKYB3,

You've quite possibly managed to come across as the least likeable contributor ever in this forum. Not only are you dancing on the grave of Sound Control - which is probably forgiveable - but you're almost relishing the misfortune of the people who've lost their livelihoods as a result of this corporate failure. And then you throw in unsubstantiated accusations that those former SC employees who are now looking for work are an untrustworthy, thieving lot.

What's worse, you've done so in the name of your business, which I hope we'll all remember in future so as to avoid making any purchases there.

My advice to you would be to stop digging. You're not doing your company any favours.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #610647 - 01/05/08 04:30 PM
John

Now there is an interesting discussion subject.

But Wurlitzers comments were spot on. Sound Control's business model was all about market share with the full backing of the RBS! I disagree, this is NOT a sad day for the industry when a banking corporation that tries to buy the music market gets a bloody nose and backs off the music industry.


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Seye



Joined: 30/04/08
Posts: 8
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610648 - 01/05/08 04:31 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:

Saye,

It was one hell of a "shrinkage" figure that's for sure! And it certainly cannot have Sound Control to turn a profit!



Please stop posting in here. That didn't even make sense. I don't think anyone wants an argument and you are certainly not making yourself any friends.


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feline1
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610649 - 01/05/08 04:31 PM
Good grief,
I guess the SoS forum will be half empty now, as nobody will be able to start threads every month berating Turnkey any more!


--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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cedd



Joined: 26/07/06
Posts: 471
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610654 - 01/05/08 04:39 PM
Quote Seye:

I was until this morning an employee of Sound Control in Salford..............

The main remaining stores (that I can remember) are...
Manchester Salford 0161 877 6262
Leeds East 0113 245 6415
London Oxford Rd (0207) 631 4200
Turnkey (see website)
Birmingham (0121) 248 5868
Southampton (02380) 829 189




My deepest sympathy Seye, i've had great dealings with SC, in particular both Leeds stores. Always had some good deals and some pretty knowledgeable guys there too, i even considered applying for a job at one time.

Having rung Leeds City SC today, it would appear that Leeds East is the one that's shut. That's not a correction for the sake of feeling good or looking like i know something, simply in case people round here are heading to the wrong one, apparently the shutters are down at Leeds East.

I know lots of the staff at Leeds city have gone as well, they're down to minimum staffing.

Sad day


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Steve Hill
member


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Yago]
      #610655 - 01/05/08 04:40 PM
Quote Yago:

Hey Smokey , if you gonna flame or bait on an internet forum ....
Might not be a good idea to put your full name in your public profile :P




Are you saying Andrew Obal is not his name?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/05/08 04:40 PM)


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Sounds-and-images
active member


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Posts: 1449
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610656 - 01/05/08 04:43 PM
When I was in SC Oxford Street and Turnkey earlier this month, I got the feeling something was not right, I could not put my finger on it at the time, but now things make sense, My thoughts are with all those that are now out of jobs and hope something comes along for you.

it also may explain why Turnkey did not want to sort out Commander's Access Virus.

Simon

--------------------
www.sounds-and-images.co.uk
http://twitter.com/soundsandimages


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Sounds-and-images]
      #610657 - 01/05/08 04:44 PM
In fairness they did sort out his Virus, despite having lost the distribution rights to Virus some time earlier.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610659 - 01/05/08 04:46 PM
Another question...........

Music Live

Isn't this a Sound Control Show?

Will it happen?

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Yago]
      #610661 - 01/05/08 04:48 PM
Yago,

Nice pic. eh?

Thanks for your concern but I never say or write anything anonymously. You either agree or disagree.

saye

Sorry. missed out helped on that post...hope it makes sense now?

Oh well, if everyone on here is convinced it's a sad day for the music industry then I guess it must be!


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
Posts: 558
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610663 - 01/05/08 04:52 PM
Quote SMOKYB3:

Put it this way, when a Sound Control director told me last year how much stuff went "missing" every month via staff I was staggered!




There was a shortfall of £1m, but that was based upon the ordering system and the fact that special orders were not correctly attributed to their relevant client accounts.

There will always be theft, in any business, but to attribute this to a company as a whole is both disrespectful and extremely unwise given the litigious nature of said comment.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9165
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Seye]
      #610665 - 01/05/08 04:56 PM
Quote Seye:

Quote SMOKYB3:

As for the young kids of the last few years? Put it this way, when a Sound Control director told me last year how much stuff went "missing" every month via staff I was staggered! They will pick up jobs np problem!



This is just ignorant, untrue and possibly slanderous. These are decent hard working people who are now looking for work. Please show some respect for their situation.




that's a rather naive position....

ALL retail operations suffer some loss to internal theft.... and the bigger the operation, the harder it is to tie down ....

I've been there, done that..... as manager , and as owner of MI retail operations... it adds up very quickly....

My Wife is now a manager at a Wilkinson's store... (one of several hundred stores... they're rather larger than SC were ) they're currently spending MILLIONS on internal security across the company to try and reduce the problem... hidden cameras , randomised (by automated selection process) full searches on exit , and all sorts of other measures... they mentioned a budget of 5.5 million on these security measures... reckoning if they managed to cut the loss rate by just 20% they'll make it all back in under 6 months.



in an MI retail store of 10 people on staff... if each one pockets just a plectrum a day... accidentally or otherwise... over an operation of 25 stores that's £39,000 a year in lost revenue.

lest say 2 in ten are less than entirely scruple free, and have a set of strings every couple of weeks.... that's another 10 grand.... 50 grand a year for just those..... then there's the odd patch cord, maybe a mic lead, a couple of jack plugs , a few drum skins.... the odd pedal battery, bridge pin, and so on... just based on that model , it could easily be more than £100K per year...


..... now then, that's for 250 staff in total.... SC had rather more....


and by some standards, THAT model was actually rather light weight and an example of someone doing reasonably well in this respect... i've known cases where staff have been known to have (but not proven at the time) walked off with entire bloody instruments....

usually the "excuse" is that the pay is so piss poor they make it up by having "perks"



i'm not implying the majority of staff at SC were especially dishonest , but there will always be SOME who aren't angels... and only a very few would really go for the big stuff (they're usually the stupid ones and get caught very quickly) but internal losses happen everywhere... it's a reality and to deny it is simply sticking a head in a bucket of sand.




I do however feel for those who've just been dumped on their asses, and those likely to be in about 90 days....


i was rather fortunate , in that when a former (MI Retail) employer went under, with Bailiffs turning up at each store... I had already left and gone freelance.... and was just helping out part time, as required... (at my own hourly rate.,.. not theirs.... ) But I had some PA stuff in storage at one store.... and I had the devils own time getting it back... proving it was MINE and not the company's ... and many friends lost their jobs, and a lot more besides.....

Shortly afterwards we opened our own store... 5 doors down from the old one..... with the majority of the staff from the old place..... I sold up in about 2000 , to concentrate on live and studio engineering, and raising 5 kids as a single parent;... running the shop as well as the studio and pa hire stuff was too much to cope with after I became a single dad...

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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Yago
Nice bloke


Joined: 16/10/07
Posts: 557
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #610666 - 01/05/08 04:58 PM
Well , go for it Smokey , pyromania ftw , not what I would choose .
It is a sad day , the staff at the Man city branch were always cool to me , especially Graig , who sourced my A7's at a very nice price .
As I said before , we seem to get stiffed on price with audio equipment in UK , and I can only see this making things worse .


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
Posts: 558
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #610668 - 01/05/08 05:03 PM
Quote Max!:

last I heard, the outstanding Yamaha balance was in excess of 5 million... and i've heard indications that the Roland one was of similar magnitude...




You're not far off, but I think the figure will probably rise further as there is still a considerable amount of Roland/Yamaha stock still in the 26 stores.

Without prejudice, there is approximately £250k of stock in the Birmingham store alone, all of which belongs to the relevant supplier, and I would expect the larger suppliers to attempt forced lien to recover that stock.


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
Posts: 558
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #610669 - 01/05/08 05:07 PM
Quote Max!:

i've known cases where staff have been known to have (but not proven at the time) walked off with entire bloody instruments....

usually the "excuse" is that the pay is so piss poor they make it up by having "perks"

i'm not implying the majority of staff at SC were especially dishonest , but there will always be SOME who aren't angels... and only a very few would really go for the big stuff (they're usually the stupid ones and get caught very quickly) but internal losses happen everywhere... it's a reality and to deny it is simply sticking a head in a bucket of sand.




Nobody would deny that this happens, however, I would not be so bold to openly state this to be the case unless I was in full receipt of the facts.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9165
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #610673 - 01/05/08 05:12 PM
PF my understanding on the Yamaha figure is that approximately £5.5m was outstanding on the account, if they manage to recover some unsold stock then that balance will reduce..... but not by all that much in relative terms....

I may not work in the retail sector any more.... But i still have fingers in pies.

There's whole heaps of ramifications to the likely state of the UK MI retail market in the near future.. I'm supposed to be doing some work right now... so I'll hold off a 10 page epic for now.....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #610674 - 01/05/08 05:13 PM
Max

Good post.

To quote the director "They never seem to buy guitar strings which sesms strange when we employ so many guitarists".
I'm sorry if the earlier post upset some but I know it was of great concern and was not a minor problem.

I always liked Pat & Ray, we had some good times together. But I have to say in very recent years Pat was, well I think the article quoted earlier from MI Pro say's it all. Ray in my humble opinion is still a top man!


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9165
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #610675 - 01/05/08 05:15 PM
Quote Parker Fly:

[
Nobody would deny that this happens,





I think you'll find Saye did exactly that.....


I'm fully conversant with the reality ....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
Posts: 558
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #610679 - 01/05/08 05:19 PM
Quote Max!:

PF my understanding on the Yamaha figure is that approximately £5.5m was outstanding on the account, if they manage to recover some unsold stock then that balance will reduce..... but not by all that much in relative terms....




Hence I said you weren't far off; even for Yamaha and Roland UK this will have a serious effect on their position.


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #610681 - 01/05/08 05:20 PM
Quote Max!:

Quote Parker Fly:

[
Nobody would deny that this happens,





I think you'll find Saye did exactly that.....


I'm fully conversant with the reality ....




My mistake, I thought you had post to the contrary.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Yago]
      #610682 - 01/05/08 05:24 PM
Yago,

You may well feel that you are "getting stuffed" on UK prices, but it sure isn't from retailers. Margins are far, far lower than in the US for instance.


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SMOKYB3



Joined: 01/05/08
Posts: 18
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610687 - 01/05/08 05:39 PM
It's too early to speculate on suppliers losses. Most will have Retention of Title on all the unsold stock. Of course some may have supplied substantial loan stock which may have already been sold and of course some suppliers have put a small fortune shopfitting the stores for Sound Control. I really hope that not too many customers paid in advance or made cash deposits for unfullfilled orders.


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Jezphonic



Joined: 06/03/07
Posts: 5
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610699 - 01/05/08 06:12 PM
At Digital Village we are saddened to hear that many of our music industry colleagues have been made redundant.

If you have been made redundant from Turnkey or Sound Control and either live or are prepared to move to the London area, please e-mail jobs@digitalvillage.co.uk as we are currently recruiting.

Jeremy Lumsden
Digital Village

http://www.dv247.com/

Edited by Jezphonic (01/05/08 06:29 PM)


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MitchT



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: SMOKYB3]
      #610703 - 01/05/08 06:33 PM
I just found about about this and I'm quite shocked and saddened. Most of the gear I've bought during the last few years was from Turnkey (because of their competitive prices) and Sound Control (because of the very convenient location of their Leeds City store within walking distance of the station). While neither company was 'perfect' I was always pleased with the deals that TK had to offer and by the friendly and enthusiastic staff that I met at SC. I was looking forward to doing more business with both companies.

My feelings go out to those staff who are now without employment and those who will spend the next 12 weeks wondering what will happen to their jobs. The problem with some companies is that they get too big because they are run by people who are purely in it for business and money and have no passion for the thing that the business is about. Maybe a group of SC and TK staff could get together, acquire one of the former SC/TK sites, and create a music gear business which is directed by people who are passionate about what they are selling rather than merely what is going into the till. I'm sure between them they will have experience of running a store, dealing with manufacturers/suppliers, etc. If they stayed small and focused on the most important things - music, musicians and gear - they could make a real success of it. It's just a thought.

Quote SMOKYB3:

I really hope that not too many customers paid in advance or made cash deposits for unfullfilled orders.



Interesting point. I enquired a few months ago with my local Sound Control about the Arturia V Collection and was told there were none in stock and that I'd have to pay up front in full for them to order one as they didn't want to be left with a piece of superfluous stock if I changed my mind. I declined on the grounds that the last item I'd ordered from them had taken ages to arrive and, while I understood their point, I also felt that I should have the right to go elsewhere if they couldn't deliver within a reasonable timeframe. Once bitten, and all that! Obviously this would be a difficult right to exercise if I'd already paid them in full and had to extract my money from them in the event of the order not being filled within a reasonable time... so I hope there aren't too many 'unsecured creditors' out there.

--------------------
www.mitchthompson.co.uk


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610717 - 01/05/08 06:57 PM
At no-one special...

It's really unhelpful to start speculating about how this minor ripple in a tiny teacup might "damage" the likes of Yamaha or Roland or whoever, possibly damaging forum members' confidence in those companies.

Sound Control was a small company which went under with debts of maybe £30 million (mostly owed to the bank), or the price of a decent house in Mayfair.

Yamaha is a Fortune 500 global company. They could probably swallow ALL of Sound Control's total liabilities to everyone out of a week's profits and not notice.

There may (or may not... I'm not willing to join in the speculation-fest) be a bit more pain at say the UK distributor level, but I'd be surprised if a company like Yamaha did not see a lot of upside in supporting their trading partners in a situation like this.

Roland posted record turnover (Y95 billion) and record profits in 2007. It has assets of US$789 million.

Let's try to stay grounded in reality, shall we?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610725 - 01/05/08 07:10 PM
Steve, many UK distribution operations, are independent of their relevant main corporation... and it's THEY that will bear any losses, NOT the "parent" corporation ....

in such a case, if there were uninsured losses . then it's the UK operation that suffers, because the global corp won't "let them off" the costs of the stock supplied....


Several UK MI distribution companies in the past have folded in similar circumstances... not necessarily instantly immediately after the collapse of a single large retailer, but the retail collapses definitely contributed to the end result... had they not happened, there would have been no real problem for the distributors...

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #610730 - 01/05/08 07:16 PM
Max, I know that. And I'm saying ill-informed idle speculation founded on no facts whatsoever can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I saw a major UK PLC construction company forced into (unwarranted) insolvency because they were (wrongly) assumed to have lost a lot of money when Canary Wharf went bust. And many similar cases. Careless talk costs livelihoods.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/05/08 07:18 PM)


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610767 - 01/05/08 08:58 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

I'm saying ill-informed idle speculation founded on no facts whatsoever can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.



Agreed. Unsubstantiated internet forum wibble, speculation, rumours and Chinese whispers can be EXTREMELY damaging to manufacturers and/or distributors in this small business of ours ... I can vouch for that.

It spreads like wildfire from forum to forum like a rash getting exaggerated almost exponentially such that it wouldn't surprise me if we don't soon see a forum thread headline somewhere soon of "Sell your Motifs - Yamaha bankrupt!!!" on the basis of what's been discussed here

My every sympathy to all who have been left so suddenly unemployed by this. I've been in the same situation myself and can totally empathise with the anguish and other emotions you must be feeling. Good luck and my very best wishes to you all and to your families who are also caught up in this.


Steve

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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leeoversby



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 1
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610841 - 02/05/08 01:13 AM
i used to work in the man city store... feel shat on, i found out whilst lay in bed on my day off!!! Hope all the staff find bigger and better things! much love to all!


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Agamemnon
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: hollowsun]
      #610853 - 02/05/08 06:19 AM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote Steve Hill:

I'm saying ill-informed idle speculation founded on no facts whatsoever can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy.



Agreed. Unsubstantiated internet forum wibble, speculation, rumours and Chinese whispers can be EXTREMELY damaging to manufacturers and/or distributors in this small business of ours ... I can vouch for that.

It spreads like wildfire from forum to forum like a rash getting exaggerated almost exponentially such that it wouldn't surprise me if we don't soon see a forum thread headline somewhere soon of "Sell your Motifs - Yamaha bankrupt!!!" on the basis of what's been discussed here

Steve




Agreed, and therefore doesn't it also follow that the generally bad reputation that(e.g.)Turnkey had on this forum, and others, may have contributed to their downfall?

Whether the reputation is deserved or not, can retailers, manufacturers etc continue to largely ignore sustained criticism on this, and other forums? I cannot recall seeing an 'effective' response from Turnkey to any criticism. I, for one, have avoided purchasing from Turnkey in the past, probably based on what I have read on this and other forums, and despite personally having only one minor bad experience, .

Whereas, if I had a problem with a Sennheiser product, I feel confident that a criticism posted here would solicit a helpful, constuctive response.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610855 - 02/05/08 07:09 AM
I'd say you can't ignore repeated requests for customer service. And maybe centralising all decision-making in Dunfermline when most of your customers are on the Charing Cross Road is also questionable.

But as long as customers insist on paying internet prices whilst "someone" funds a shop with knowledgeable helpful staff for them to try thing out in, something has to give, doesn't it?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610858 - 02/05/08 07:17 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

But as long as customers insist on paying internet prices whilst "someone" funds a shop with knowledgeable helpful staff for them to try thing out in, something has to give, doesn't it?




And that's the crux of the matter.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Ian Stewart



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610859 - 02/05/08 07:21 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

At no-one special...

It's really unhelpful to start speculating about how this minor ripple in a tiny teacup might "damage" the likes of Yamaha or Roland or whoever, possibly damaging forum members' confidence in those companies.

.................

Let's try to stay grounded in reality, shall we?




Exactly. As a fan of Seth Godin, and as referred to in another post, the web, particularly forums such as this one, means we are now all critics. One post by one of us can get more attention than an article in an obscure music or finance magazine. Particularly with Google, where throw away comments can come top of a search. With this freedom and open platform for our opinions, comes responsibility.
Rightly or wrongly I pay more attention to what SH, JW, HRJ and PW say because the use their reals names, so they are implicitly committed to their post. They are admittedly expressing opinions but the implication is they are committed to those opinions.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #610870 - 02/05/08 07:55 AM
i know where you're coming from, Ian, though i would dispute the implication that using a pseudonym makes you any less "committed" to your opinions - you could be a complete troll and still use your real name (anyone see peterjkirk on the REAPER forums recently?!).

this forum is actually quite different in that respect to other places i frequent - there are far more people here using "real names" than "handles"... i'd like to think that the validity of someone's comments can be adjudged not just by reputation or username, but by each reader applying a little bit of common sense. we're all capable of recognising bullsh*t when we see it.

but you are fundamentally correct. it's far easier to express an extreme opinion on the internet than a moderated one (i hate this - i love this). i would hope, though, that people can see these as they are - i.e. opinions - and not gospel truth. ymmv...

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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CrunchyPunch
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610875 - 02/05/08 08:00 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

I'd say you can't ignore repeated requests for customer service.





Turnkey had a reputation for being very poor on this front for a number of years. The shopping experience there was always a painful one with emphasis being place on shifting boxes rather than offering the customer the best product.
I perservered with Turnkey because it was in my locality but I knew many people who chose out of principle to not go there because the service was so so poor.
I can't speak for the rest of the stores in the UK but it was very visible on the shop floors in London that the business was managed badly.
Last time I went to Turnkey they had stripped it of all the demonstration equipment and boxes were randomly strewn across the floor in a very untidy fashion.
What's the point in paying high street rents if you're not going to put on a decent shopping environment that customers want to visit? I hope someone sets up another store because we need a Music tech shop in Central London, othwerwise its a long trip to DV in Barnet for me.


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The Red Bladder



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610883 - 02/05/08 08:19 AM
Quote Steve Hill:


I saw a major UK PLC construction company forced into (unwarranted) insolvency because they were (wrongly) assumed to have lost a lot of money when Canary Wharf went bust. And many similar cases. Careless talk costs livelihoods.




A company that has balanced assets with liabilities and, most importantly, has balanced liquifiable assets with short-term liabilities cannot be forced into insolvency.

A company that steps up to the plate and answers critics and deals with problems head-on, does not suffer careless talk.

Insolvency is not an accident. It is not some nasty misfortune that could happen to anyone. It is a clear state of affairs that is brought about by allowing liabilities to exceed assets.

A company becomes insolvent through dishonesty or incompetence. Or a mixture of both. Construction companies in particular have got into the deadly habit of taking on huge projects without proper financial regulation, such as backing from the banks and / or continued and regulated payment as a project progresses.

Too many retailers and wholesalers in the UK are running their companies as a kind of smoke and mirrors operation.

One European manufacturer told me that his UK distributor told him that he was going to expand his business by remortgaging his house.

"Are these people crazy, or just stupid?" he exclaimed "The slightest thing happens and he will have no house, no business, nothing. I cannot put my company and the 24 people working for me, in danger by dealing with people like that!"


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Boston Green



Joined: 21/09/07
Posts: 408
Loc: East Sussex
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610885 - 02/05/08 08:24 AM
I do find it rather amusing that all of a sudden most of turdkey's staff are on this forum .......

Amazing considering how they manage to keep their heads down so well when people here have had a complaint or problem with the store or web service in the past.

Treat your customers like crap, and well ............

--------------------
www.BandSoundHire.com
PA Hire in Brighton, Sussex, Surrey and Kent.


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Jez (mahoobley)
monkey


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610887 - 02/05/08 08:34 AM
Probably because they were in no position to speak for their company? Now they are out of a job they can speak freely. Before they might risk a bollocking, or worse.

At least that's why I didn't when I worked for Sound Control a couple of years back.

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #610893 - 02/05/08 08:56 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

In fairness they did sort out his Virus, despite having lost the distribution rights to Virus some time earlier.




They did sort me out, and rather professionally and efficiently in the end.

I've been thinking about this though and things do make sense now. Initially when I called Turnkey to have my Virus repaired I was told that they were no longer the distributor and that they had no new units in stock for me to borrow. However, when I spoke to the chap in the Turnkey repairs dept he told me that he would send me over a PSU from one of the new units in the stockroom! This suggests to me that somebody upstairs knew something was about to happen and was winding things down.

Turnkey was not a shop I frequented - I used to deal with Media Tools upstairs. I didn't like it as a shop and on the rare occassions I did go in I found it slapdash and disorganised. I do feel sorry for the staff that no longer have a job however, and we shouldn't forget the very human outcome of this company going down.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #610896 - 02/05/08 09:00 AM
There is another definition of insolvency: inability to pay debts when due.

If you own say real estate worth £1,000,000 which is not easily saleable owing to say sluggish market conditions, and you cannot pay your fuel bill of £1,000 without selling, the fuel supplier can bankrupt you. This happened to tens of thousands of people in the 1990s recession when they were simple unable to sell properties in certain areas, at any price. They eventually paid their debts in full, but an insolvency procedure was part of the mechanism by which they did so.

I can recall an awful lot of people and companies in the early 1990s who tried to discuss (often sensible) rescue plans with their banks to no avail. The response was, basically, forget it, we've had enough, we want our money back. Right now, banks are moving back into that mindset.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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hifistud2



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: hollowsun]
      #610916 - 02/05/08 09:40 AM
Hmmm... well I do know that certain reps are running around the country doing stock checks on their kit, which is obviously still legally theirs to claw back - so how much of it the administrators will be able to sell is moot.

One would assume that they need to be able to account to the administrators just how much is legally the suppliers' and how much SC has already paid for.

It's a sad state of affairs, though.

--------------------
[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]


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Tomadvent
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610937 - 02/05/08 10:15 AM
There are clearly a number of contributing factors to this particular administration.

But there is a fundamental mindset which has contributed over the years to the core problem - that is the obsession with "growth" which leads to poor internal communications and in turn to staff being unable to offer good personal service.

The problem with Soundcontrol/Turnkey type company is that even committed and knowledgeable staff (and there were some) were not permitted to make decisions, or respond to problems which had to be referred to Head Office.

When I read staff claiming that the collapse came as a shock I am just astonished - to an outside it was obvious that the group was in major problems - poor and out-of-date websites - none existent stock control - some very shabby shops - and key suppliers refusing to allow them to stock their goods. The opening of new superstores such as Leeds City could not disguise these basic problems

My most recent experience of this was demonstrated by Dolphin who took my money and then failed to deliver the goods (be warned they always charge you credit card when you place the order and justify this by saying that they need to "charge on order" for cash flow purposes - let the alarm bells start ringing folks)- I phoned the mail order department from the Huddersfield shop where the item was in stock in front of my very eyes) and was told that they had not got it stock in any store so they could not fulfill the order.


That is now why I deal with only those retailers who concentrate on good personal service and know what it happening in their own company - they may not be big, or growing or winning dubious Government awards for being the fastest growing company, but they count.

Serious and professional musicians who want good products and good service should decide to support these retailers and shops - and as people like Andertons in Guildford demonstrate they need not be more expensive.

There is a lesson for us all from the Sound Control experience and we have a choice whether we make it or not.


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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Jez (mahoobley)]
      #610942 - 02/05/08 10:21 AM
Quote Mahoobley:

Probably because they were in no position to speak for their company? Now they are out of a job they can speak freely. Before they might risk a bollocking, or worse.




That's absolutely right. You can only speak for a company in a public forum if the company authorises you to do so. Otherwise, you'll be sacked. End of story.

Reading other contributors' comments about the poor impression they'd formed during recent visit to Sound Control-owned stores, I too felt that something was missing when I'd been in my local branch in recent months. There was, for example, still an awful lot of old software around for products that I knew had been updated. There was also less initiative than was previously the case to recommend products not currently in stock but which could normally be ordered in pretty easily.

Maybe this reflected the state of staff morale and the likelihood that they'd have had problems ordering new items?

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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P.O



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 5
Loc: Newcastle
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610946 - 02/05/08 10:25 AM
Hello people, it's a shame my first post on here has to be on this thread!

I was just wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of getting refunds for unfulfilled orders. I know they have to prioritise all the parties owed money so where does this leave the customer?

cheers


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Ray_Kemp



Joined: 29/08/04
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610953 - 02/05/08 10:34 AM
Let me say this.
I will never that is NOT EVER buy anything from Dolphin as long as I live.

--------------------
A veteran performer, A novice composer.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: P.O]
      #610954 - 02/05/08 10:35 AM
You are just another creditor with no special rights... so pretty well out in the cold unfortunately.

If however you paid by credit card, contact your card issuer as then you will be covered by them.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610962 - 02/05/08 10:48 AM
I was talking to the area manager of Glasgow City SC last night.
He knew there were talks at HQ on Monday, but not what they were about.
He got a phone call on the Tuesday to let him know, but by the time he got to the store, the staff already knew.

I just hope Pat puts the golf clubs away long enough to make a full public explanation and an apology to SC staff.

I remember the last AGM circa 1990 vividly, when he promised the staff that they'd always be looked after so long as they stuck by SC.


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: P.O]
      #610968 - 02/05/08 10:53 AM
Quote P.O:

I was just wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of getting refunds for unfulfilled orders. I know they have to prioritise all the parties owed money so where does this leave the customer?




At the very bottom of the list of creditors I think, with very little hope.

If you paid by credit card you should be OK. I suggest contacting your credit card company now if you paid this way.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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cedd



Joined: 26/07/06
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #610980 - 02/05/08 11:11 AM
How long have SC been in trouble? I'm just astounded that, even with major financial issues, the Leeds City store moved before christmas to a brand new building, with to be honest, some very extensive works done inside. It must have cost the group a lot of money, money which they obviously didn't have.

The old site is being demolished to make way for a new tower block, so perhaps there was a decent cash sum for that, but you'd think that with financial issues and a second store already in the city, they'd just close Leeds City and pocket the cash.

C


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611000 - 02/05/08 11:33 AM
Hope it's ok to do this here.
I've snipped out a few quotes from the Pat Kelly interview in the December 07 issue of Music Trade news;

Quote:

So the internet isn't killing the business?
"No - we're killing the business, if it's being killed. You can't blame other people for it. The internets an opportunity."
But what about the small shop confronted with a potential buyer who says he can buy a strat for peanuts online? How can they possibly compete with that? And if they can't, what sort of future have they got?
"I remember something like this coming up at an MIA convention years ago, when someone came up with the same thing about chains. I made the point that we didn't wake up one day with 10 shops. We went out and did it. What has happened is that these guys have recognized a different route to market - a very efficient one - and it's up to the rest of us to cope with that. If we don't manage to do that, it's not going to be Gary Marshall's fault, or Hans Thomann's fault. It's our fault. Anybody whose business is being given a hard time has to look at their own business."
So does he believe the individual store stands a chance against the combined effects of chains, like his, and discounters like GAK, Dolphin and Thomann?
"In another life, or if things went bad, I could open a small music store - as could most people with the right smarts - and do very well, because that personal service is very valued by customers (snip)"




Ooh the irony.
So Pat, when's your new music shop opening?


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Commander



Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3896
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ray_Kemp]
      #611005 - 02/05/08 11:44 AM
Quote Ray_Kemp:

Let me say this.
I will never that is NOT EVER buy anything from Dolphin as long as I live.




Really? I've always found them to be rather good.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611008 - 02/05/08 11:46 AM
So Monday of this week I placed an order for some Mackie Hr824'S from Sound Control cost of £850 on my credit card.
The money has already been taken, and after finally getting in touch with the store Ive been told the administrators have forbidden staff to release any goods, including my speakers. How can the creditors move in and BLATANTLY steal my money and refuse to release my goods? Am I done for?!!!


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P.O



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 5
Loc: Newcastle
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #611009 - 02/05/08 11:46 AM
Quote John Willett:

Quote P.O:

I was just wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of getting refunds for unfulfilled orders. I know they have to prioritise all the parties owed money so where does this leave the customer?




At the very bottom of the list of creditors I think, with very little hope.

If you paid by credit card you should be OK. I suggest contacting your credit card company now if you paid this way.




ta for the reply. I thought as much. Complete nightmare!!


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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #611010 - 02/05/08 11:49 AM
I think there's a lot of hypocrisy amongst some of those who laud the virtues of the small shop in comparison with the evils of a large chain. Especially when it comes from the proprietors of those small shops.

Let's be real. There really aren't all that many small shop owners who would turn down the opportunity to open a second branch if the business was there to make it viable. And then a third branch. A fourth branch. A few years later, they've got 26 and they're out of their depth.

It's happened in the music sector. It happens in every sector.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: cedd]
      #611012 - 02/05/08 11:50 AM
Quote cedd:

How long have SC been in trouble? I'm just astounded that, even with major financial issues, the Leeds City store moved before christmas to a brand new building, with to be honest, some very extensive works done inside. It must have cost the group a lot of money, money which they obviously didn't have.

The old site is being demolished to make way for a new tower block, so perhaps there was a decent cash sum for that, but you'd think that with financial issues and a second store already in the city, they'd just close Leeds City and pocket the cash.

C




Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...


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John Willett
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611015 - 02/05/08 11:53 AM
Quote james10001:

So Monday of this week I placed an order for some Mackie Hr824'S from Sound Control cost of £850 on my credit card.
The money has already been taken, and after finally getting in touch with the store I've been told the administrators have forbidden staff to release any goods, including my speakers. How can they steal my money and refuse to release my goods? Am I done for?!!!




No, you are not done for, because you paid by credit card.

If SC don't supply or refund, the credit card company will.

I suggest contacting them (the credit card company) now and explaining the situation.

As some SC stores are still trading under the control of the administrators, you *may* actually get the goods.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611016 - 02/05/08 11:54 AM
Quote james10001:



Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...



Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.


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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611017 - 02/05/08 11:55 AM
Quote james10001:

So Monday of this week I placed an order for some Mackie Hr824'S from Sound Control cost of £850 on my credit card.
The money has already been taken, and after finally getting in touch with the store Ive been told the administrators have forbidden staff to release any goods, including my speakers. How can they steal my money and refuse to release my goods? Am I done for?!!!




If it was definitely your credit card, as opposed to a debit card (such as Switch, Maestro, etc), then you should be covered by the card service provider. Get in touch with them asap.

Otherwise, I guess you'll be well down the lengthy queue of creditors. The ones who are already rich, such as the banks, get priority though.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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Commander



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611018 - 02/05/08 11:55 AM
To all those of you who have placed orders I sincerely hope that you get your money back. As has been mentioned, credit card transactions usually carry an insurance for these situations so you should be okay.

On the subject of debtors ...

A few years ago I was working on some music for a large advertising agency here in London. I supplied the music, it was accepted, dubbed, and on air. I invoiced them for £15,000.00 and got a letter back saying the agency had gone into receivership and I was on a list. 3 years later I received £500.00 in final payment.

To add insult to injury the ad was on TV all the time, virtually every ad break. The agency must have known when they commissioned me to do the work that things were bad, indeed I am sure they must have known they were about to close. The first the staff heard of it was when they turned up for work one morning to find the doors chained up and burly security guards blocking their entry.

But the final straw was when one of the directors of the defunct agency called me a couple of weeks later from his new agency to do the music for another job!!!!!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #611021 - 02/05/08 12:00 PM
Quote The muso:

Quote james10001:



Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...



Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.



This is 100% correct. Do not blame Sound Control. The staff have been left to pick up the pieces and have had a TOTAL nightmare.
One staff member had just put a £2000 deposit down on a drum set, which is now evaporated. They have had to tell FUMING customers with store accounts/ credit that they have their money, but will not release any goods. As a result there has been verbal and physical abuse from disgruntled musicians, one store manager punched in the face, another store ram-raided and rioting even broke out somewhere down south. The manager I spoke to sounded like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Total carnage...
I am totalled f@c!ed off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 131
Loc: Scotland
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611022 - 02/05/08 12:02 PM
Quote james10001:

Quote The muso:

Quote james10001:



Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...



Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.



This is 100% correct. Do not blame Sound Control. Thbe staff have been left to pick up the pieces and have had a TOTAL nightmare. They have had to tell FUMING customers with store accounts/ credit that they have their money, but will not release any goods. As a result there has been verbal and physical abuse from disgruntled musicians, one store manager punched in the face, another store ram-raided and rioting even broke out somewhere down south.




Bloomin Norah
The public make me sick at times.


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #611023 - 02/05/08 12:08 PM
Quote The muso:

Quote james10001:

Quote The muso:

Quote james10001:



Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...



Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.



This is 100% correct. Do not blame Sound Control. The staff have been left to pick up the pieces and have had a TOTAL nightmare.
One staff member had just put a £2000 deposit down on a drum set, which is now evaporated. They have had to tell FUMING customers with store accounts/ credit that they have their money, but will not release any goods. As a result there has been verbal and physical abuse from disgruntled musicians, one store manager punched in the face, another store ram-raided and rioting even broke out somewhere down south. The manager I spoke to sounded like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Total carnage...
I am totalled [Email]f@c!ed[/Email] off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.





Bloomin Norah
The public make me sick at times.




No dont blame the public, blame the creditors.
Yes the public have overreacted badly but I can tell you that right now being just shy of £1000 down I am soo ready to kick off.
BIG TIME.


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Stevedog



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611029 - 02/05/08 12:19 PM
The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog


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jellyjim
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Commander]
      #611036 - 02/05/08 12:25 PM
Quote Commander:

I invoiced them for £15,000.00 and got a letter back saying the agency had gone into receivership and I was on a list. 3 years later I received £500.00 in final payment.




Ouch

Quote:

But the final straw was when one of the directors of the defunct agency called me a couple of weeks later from his new agency to do the music for another job!!!!!




Did you do it?

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com


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P.O



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 5
Loc: Newcastle
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Stevedog]
      #611037 - 02/05/08 12:25 PM
Quote Stevedog:

The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...




hmmmm... interesting. If they do get bought, that may be a glimmer of hope for refunds?


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comradec
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Posts: 1609
Loc: Stockton-on-Tees, UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: P.O]
      #611038 - 02/05/08 12:27 PM
Quote P.O:

Quote Stevedog:

The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...




hmmmm... interesting. If they do get bought, that may be a glimmer of hope for refunds?




Maybe. But they should be docked 15 points at the start of next season.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: P.O]
      #611039 - 02/05/08 12:28 PM
Quote P.O:

Quote Stevedog:

The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...




hmmmm... interesting. If they do get bought, that may be a glimmer of hope for refunds?



Would be nice to think so but the way I heard it SC were on the verge of a BIG deal with aforementioned company when the plug was pulled leaving everyone high and dry.


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 131
Loc: Scotland
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611043 - 02/05/08 12:34 PM
Ugh.
The idea of the UK MI scene being dominated by Germany does not sit right with me.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9165
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611045 - 02/05/08 12:38 PM
several non uk companies have looked at buying SC (amongst other potential purchase options, or so I understand... )


there have been american as well as european parties , from the sounds of it, I'd surmise that at some stage or other they've all looked over the books and run a mile....

why buy a going concern with liabilities "issues" when you can wait for it to vaporise and simply move in on the turf, buying what you want from the liquidation proceedings.


???

not helpful , or cheerful perhaps... but a definite potential reality .

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Commander]
      #611048 - 02/05/08 12:40 PM
Quote Commander:

But the final straw was when one of the directors of the defunct agency called me a couple of weeks later from his new agency to do the music for another job!!!!!




You should have said:- "Yes, for £30,000, payable in advance"

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Monobass
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: The muso]
      #611049 - 02/05/08 12:44 PM
Quote The muso:

Ugh.
The idea of the UK MI scene being dominated by Germany does not sit right with me.




would you rather they only sold British products too?

Slim pickings.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611053 - 02/05/08 12:46 PM
Quote james10001:

I am totalled [Email]f@c!ed[/Email] off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.




Excuse me, but why is it the creditors' fault? It was the company, run by its directors, which took your money.

Creditors, like anyone else, have a right to say enough is enough (probably at the tail end of a long chain of broken promises). A bank can only intervene when (pre-agreed) banking covenants are breached, i.e. in accordance with the contract the company freely entered into with the bank (and then broke).

Taking deposits from members of the public for goods which are not delivered means the administrators MUST put in an adverse report (rather than a clean one) on directors' conduct, which the government's Insolvency Service will then consider with a view to determining whether to apply to the court for the directors to be disqualified from acting as company directors for a period of up to 15 years.

Directors run companies, not their creditors. And directors have a legal obligation to safeguard the interests of creditors, including you (or your credit card issuer who will claim in your place).

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
Posts: 558
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #611054 - 02/05/08 12:49 PM
Quote Max!:

Steve, many UK distribution operations, are independent of their relevant main corporation... and it's THEY that will bear any losses, NOT the "parent" corporation ....




Roland UK have sent staff to every remaining SC store to make claim and mark each and every piece of equipment they own, from expensive workstations all the way down to leads connecting said equipment.

The idea that Roland UK will simply accept the losses, and that said losses will no effect on their overall status is considerably wide of the actual mark.

The administrators have also appointed 'security' for many of the remaining stores as they are expecting (and infact this has already happened) those that have lost out to visit those remaining stores to claim goods that they have already paid for.


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 131
Loc: Scotland
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Monobass]
      #611060 - 02/05/08 12:53 PM
Quote Monobass:

Quote The muso:

Ugh.
The idea of the UK MI scene being dominated by Germany does not sit right with me.




would you rather they only sold British products too?

Slim pickings.



It's not that mate.
I used to work for Telex when it was effectively being run by Germans.
A traumatic experience.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #611064 - 02/05/08 12:55 PM
Quote Parker Fly:

The idea that Roland UK will simply accept the losses, and that said losses will no effect on their overall status is considerably wide of the actual mark.




Who said that?

If they've been advised by even half-competent lawyers all supplies will have been subject to industry-standard retention of title agreements conferring upon them the status of secured creditors (to the value of unsold stock supplied by them).

This has been well established law and practice for 30 years. They are just agreeing with the administrators what stock is involved. Nobody is suggesting they should give up any rights they have. Why on earth should they?

I simply said Roland Corporation is worth $789 million. They probably got there by not rolling over in these situations. Good for them.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (02/05/08 12:58 PM)


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #611070 - 02/05/08 01:10 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote james10001:

I am totalled [Email]f@c!ed[/Email] off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.




Excuse me, but why is it the creditors' fault? It was the company, run by its directors, which took your money.

Creditors, like anyone else, have a right to say enough is enough (probably at the tail end of a long chain of broken promises). A bank can only intervene when (pre-agreed) banking covenants are breached, i.e. in accordance with the contract the company freely entered into with the bank (and then broke).

Taking deposits from members of the public for goods which are not delivered means the administrators MUST put in an adverse report (rather than a clean one) on directors' conduct, which the government's Insolvency Service will then consider with a view to determining whether to apply to the court for the directors to be disqualified from acting as company directors for a period of up to 15 years.

Directors run companies, not their creditors. And directors have a legal obligation to safeguard the interests of creditors, including you (or your credit card issuer who will claim in your place).




My apologies I feel I have used incorrect terminology. To be more precise I mean the administrators who have frozen transactions. They are the people who have stolen money from me, because they will not release goods that are rightfully mine having paid for them!
I do not accept it is Sound Controls fault as they did not want to stop trading.


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Watty
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Joined: 23/06/02
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration.. new [Re: james10001]
      #611072 - 02/05/08 01:16 PM
I worked instore and in head office for a total of 7 years and although saddened by the news, I'm not totally surprised.

There's a combination of factors for the death of the company in my opinion, you can't blame the bank fully for their inevitable decision. SC had got too big too quickly, for years gross profit was decreasing while overheads were increasing, stock control was almost non existent, there were too many people in middle/senior management whose input to the company was questionable and considering how important internet sales is nowadays the website was an utter disgrace.

When I left head office in 2006, SC were on the brink of ordering the Legacy range of cheap Chinese garbage. This was a crude attempt to up their average gross profit to bring some value back to the company but it backfired. There have always been shoestring local shops selling that sort of tat - people would go to SC for the quality products which you didn't get in ye olde world music shops.

I heard from an ex colleague that SC are still in talks with the Norwegian company trying to hammer out a deal on the remaining shops. I reckon the deal will happen and the remaining shops will stay open under new management. It makes sense - the chain did make good money pre-AOS buyout days. It all went badly wrong from there and it's no coincidence that the vast majority of the stores to close were the ex AOS ones.

I feel sickened for all the hardworking and loyal staff out of a job though, especially Richard the manager in Southampton who's apparently on holiday and found out by phone call from his staff after they'd had their marching orders from the administrators...awful situation for all those involved


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 131
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration.. new [Re: Watty]
      #611073 - 02/05/08 01:23 PM
Quote Watty:

there were too many people in middle/senior management whose input to the company was questionable



One of em's now wrecking Gibson/Epiphone.

Quote:

and considering how important internet sales is nowadays the website was an utter disgrace.





Quoted for truth!


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10443
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #611079 - 02/05/08 01:46 PM
Quote comradec:



If it was definitely your credit card, as opposed to a debit card (such as Switch, Maestro, etc), then you should be covered by the card service provider. Get in touch with them asap.





I believe it is known as a Section 75 claim - because it is covered by section 75 of the consumer credit act.

Even if you paid by debit card you should still contact your bank as they have been known to issue refunds in other cases of companies going into liquidation. It might take a little persuasion though.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Tomadvent
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Joined: 19/04/02
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611081 - 02/05/08 01:57 PM
To blame the banks is complete nonsense - there would be clear legal agreements in place which SC management would have freely entered into - the banks can only call in administrators if those agreements are breached. IF the company had been solvent the banks could not have moved in.

People saying that the senior managers knew nothing - of course they knew of the financial difficulties - they would not know of the administrators arrival cos that is done deliberately to avoid any malpractice.

To blithely say that SC control did not want to "stop trading" is meaningless in this context.

Other bidders (German Norgewgian or whatever) would have had to show "due care" and would not have bid for a company with huge commitments - who can blaim them for waiting until they can discuss with the administrators rather than with a management that had placed the firm the in the mess in the first place and there would be legally accurate information available from a firm like Deloitte.

There has to be a certain irony in the name - one thing is evident there was not "sound control" of the business.


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Tomadvent]
      #611088 - 02/05/08 02:11 PM
Quote Tomadvent:

To blame the banks is complete nonsense - there would be clear legal agreements in place which SC management would have freely entered into - the banks can only call in administrators if those agreements are breached. IF the company had been solvent the banks could not have moved in.

People saying that the senior managers knew nothing - of course they knew of the financial difficulties - they would not know of the administrators arrival cos that is done deliberately to avoid any malpractice.

To blithely say that SC control did not want to "stop trading" is meaningless in this context.

Other bidders (German Norgewgian or whatever) would have had to show "due care" and would not have bid for a company with huge commitments - who can blaim them for waiting until they can discuss with the administrators rather than with a management that had placed the firm the in the mess in the first place and there would be legally accurate information available from a firm like Deloitte.

There has to be a certain irony in the name - one thing is evident there was not "sound control" of the business.




I can and will blame the administrators for the theft of my money because it is they who have forbidden sound control to release goods which i am entitled to, having already paid for them.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611091 - 02/05/08 02:17 PM
Quote james10001:

To be more precise I mean the administrators who have frozen transactions. They are the people who have stolen money from me, because they will not release goods that are rightfully mine having paid for them!




I'm sure Deloitte will understand it is only the emotions of the situation that lead you to charge them with theft!

The administrator has no option but to freeze the situation as he finds it, preserving equity between the creditors. How would you feel if, say, he paid off another creditor out of sympathy, reducing the pot of assets available in which you would share?

He can't do it. It's against the law. He'd lose his licence and be struck off. You're shooting the messenger. If you don't like the law take it up with your MP.

There are good questions to be asked about why the directors, knowing the precarious situation of the company, did not put customers' advance payments in a designated trust account (something like a solicitor's clients' account) which would have been immune to the claims of the administrators and could in due course have been unwound to give you a full refund. It is not at all unusual for companies in such a situation, if they seek expert advice, to be told that this is what they should be doing. Again, the failure to seek advice (or if they did, the failure to act on it) indicates culpability by the directors and no-one else.

Quote james10001:

I do not accept it is Sound Controls fault as they did not want to stop trading.




No company wants to go bust. That's one of the reasons why it is a criminal offence for directors to keep trading beyond the point where the directors knew or ought to have known that an insolvent liquidation was unavoidable.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (02/05/08 02:20 PM)


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 8619
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611092 - 02/05/08 02:17 PM
What a mess... ;(


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Tomadvent
member


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #611094 - 02/05/08 02:19 PM
Actually I think there are plenty of individual shop owners who have the business sense to stick with what they know and can make a good living out offering personal service - on a single site.

That's what makes them such a better place to deal with - and some of them have a better choice of stock than the average Sound Control shop so there are not "small" shops just more customer focused.

Ironically from the quote given above it seems that the boss of Sound Control learnt the lesson - if he is not banned as a Director then he may reappear with a single shop.

If the chains could duplicate the individual shop experience (with locally accountable managers and well paid and trained staff) then I would have no qualms in buying from a chain.

There is nothing hypocritical in suggesting that as purchasers we have a choice - and in the end we get the shops our choices deserve.


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directresolution.com



Joined: 13/09/06
Posts: 594
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611095 - 02/05/08 02:20 PM
Quote james10001:



I can and will blame the administrators for the theft of my money because it is they who have forbidden sound control to release goods which i am entitled to, having already paid for them.




Your grief has to be directed at the company really. If you brought a stolen car but didn't know it at the time you wouldn't be angry at the police for giving it back to the person who owned it.


Now of course it isn't quite like that (or that simple) but that is kind of what the administrators are doing.

--------------------
www.directresolution.com
home of the DARC audio computer


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jrbcm



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 941
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611096 - 02/05/08 02:22 PM
Quote james10001:


I can and will blame the administrators for the theft of my money because it is they who have forbidden sound control to release goods which i am entitled to, having already paid for them.




Yes, I agree. I still don't fully understand - am I right in saying some staff are still at shops which are trading?? I certainly can't get through to Turnkey on the phone.

BTW, as James Perret pointed out above, it's worth ringing your bank re- having paid with debit card. And it's worth ringing several times, speaking to different people. I tried once with no luck, but with a second call, I was told I could contest the payment with a good chance of getting the dosh back.


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611097 - 02/05/08 02:23 PM
Quote james10001:

I can and will blame the administrators for the theft of my money because it is they who have forbidden sound control to release goods which i am entitled to, having already paid for them.




It may be that Sound Control had *not* paid for them and the goods legally belong to the manufacturer/distributor of the goods and not to Sound Control.

In this case the administrators are well within their rights to stop despatch.

I know that various stock checks are going on to determine which of the stock belongs to Sound Control (ie: paid for) and what belongs to the suppliers (ie: *not* paid for).

Only when this is done will thay know what can be sold.

That's why I always pay by credit card, even if I can afford cash, as I get the protection. If you paid by credit card you are covered and will get your money back.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #611098 - 02/05/08 02:24 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote james10001:

To be more precise I mean the administrators who have frozen transactions. They are the people who have stolen money from me, because they will not release goods that are rightfully mine having paid for them!




I'm sure Deloitte will understand it is only the emotions of the situation that lead you to charge them with theft!

The administrator has no option but to freeze the situation as he finds it, preserving equity between the creditors. How would you feel if, say, he paid off another creditor out of sympathy, reducing the pot of assets available in which you would share?

He can't do it. It's against the law. He'd lose his licence and be struck off. You're shooting the messenger.

There are good questions to be asked about why the directors, knowing the precarious situation of the company, did not put customers' advance payments in a designated trust account (something like a solicitor's clients' account) which would have been immune to the claims of the administrators and could in due course have been unwound to give you a full refund. It is not at all unusual for companies in such a situation, if they seek expert advice, to be told that this is what they should be doing. Again, the failure to seek advice (or if they did, the failure to act on it) indicates culpability by the directors and no-one else.

Quote james10001:

I do not accept it is Sound Controls fault as they did not want to stop trading.




No company wants to go bust. That's one of the reasons why it is a criminal offence for directors to keep trading beyond the point where the directors knew or ought to have known that an insolvent liquidation was unavoidable.




Maybe I am just shooting the messenger, Im no expert.
Im just severely annoyed that the bottom line is I have just "donated" a large sum of money to the administrators and who they represent.
When it comes to handing out MY money I know full well that I will be at the back of the queue. I cant afford to be lining other peoples pockets, especially when their income in 1 month is probably more than mine in a year...


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John Willett
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611102 - 02/05/08 02:27 PM
Quote james10001:

Im just severely annoyed that the bottom line is I have just "donated" a large sum of money to the administrators and who they represent.




I thought it was illegal to take money from a credit / debit card before despatch of the goods.

If they took the money and did not despatch, it is illegal.

Maybe Steve Hill can comment on this????

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #611104 - 02/05/08 02:32 PM
Quote John Willett:

Quote james10001:

Im just severely annoyed that the bottom line is I have just "donated" a large sum of money to the administrators and who they represent.




I thought it was illegal to take money from a credit / debit card before despatch of the goods.

If they took the money and did not despatch, it is illegal.

Maybe Steve Hill can comment on this????



Well the goods were apparently en route. That said they mustv been going via Timbuktu.
All being well it will be covered by the credit card (although I dont see why Barclaycard should have to foot the bill either- sounds like the bank offloading its problems on to a 3rd party), its just a worrying time right now, and not just for me, but especially for the people who didnt pay by card.


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: jrbcm]
      #611108 - 02/05/08 02:47 PM
Quote jrbcm:

Quote james10001:


Yes, I agree. I still don't fully understand - am I right in saying some staff are still at shops which are trading?? I certainly can't get through to Turnkey on the phone.






Here is a clip from a sound control employees post:

The main remaining stores (that I can remember) are...

Manchester Salford 0161 877 6262
Leeds East 0113 245 6415
London Oxford Rd (0207) 631 4200
Turnkey (see website)
Birmingham (0121) 248 5868
Southampton (02380) 829 189


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611135 - 02/05/08 03:30 PM
If you paid by credit card (and not a debt card like Switch or Maestro) you WILL be repaid by Barclaycard. It's one of the benefits of having such a card and may on a good day justify the punitive rates of interest they charge! They are required to pay up under the Consumer Credit Act, and are unlikely to haggle.

Get on to their HQ (in Northampton I think). They've probably already got a couple of people assigned to "the Sound Control issue" handling claims.

John: there are lots of things companies and their directors should not do once they are insolvent, but making something illegal doesn't always stop it happening. Ask Bob Maxwell's ghost.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611137 - 02/05/08 03:34 PM
Everyones input here has been good. I have learnt much from this tragic situation.

I agree that banks must safeguard interests.
However, banks are a business, and businesses are in place to make profit. Where there is profit there is risk.

Customers are not making profit, and therefore should not be exposed to risk.
There should be legislation in place that protects customers, ensuring they are compensated first, not last.

Yes, very naive I know, but just my conclusion.


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Tomadvent
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #611138 - 02/05/08 03:34 PM
Quote John Willett:

Quote james10001:

Im just severely annoyed that the bottom line is I have just "donated" a large sum of money to the administrators and who they represent.




I thought it was illegal to take money from a credit / debit card before despatch of the goods.

If they took the money and did not despatch, it is illegal.

Maybe Steve Hill can comment on this????




No it is not apparently legal as long as they tell you that they are going to do it in their "terms and conditions" - it is for that reason that I do not order from Dolphin anymore who charge the card as soon as they receive the order even if they have not got the item in stock. Imagine the casualty list if they go into administration and they are currently being funded by the same bank as Sound Control.


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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611143 - 02/05/08 03:41 PM
Quote james10001:

Everyones input here has been good. I have learnt much from this tragic situation.

I agree that banks must safeguard interests.
However, banks are a business, and businesses are in place to make profit. Where there is profit there is risk.

Customers are not making profit, and therefore should not be exposed to risk.




Well, actually, some customers are making profits, or at least trying to. I don't expect that the people on this forum who run professional recording studios do so primarily as an act of charity; they're trying to run profit-making businesses, albeit in an area of work that they love. Those people are customers of retailers like Sound Control.

Customers also expose retailers to some risk, especially if they're buying items on the never-never. Or they order an out-of-stock item having paid only a deposit (or not even that) and then don't pay up when the item arrives.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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John Willett
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611146 - 02/05/08 03:46 PM
Quote james10001:

There should be legislation in place that protects customers, ensuring they are compensated first, not last.




I think the staff are very high on the list - maybe even before the bank (but I can't be certain about that).

Certainly, as far as I am aware, staff wages are paid before the other creditors.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #611149 - 02/05/08 03:50 PM
Quote:


Well, actually, some customers are making profits, or at least trying to. I don't expect that the people on this forum who run professional recording studios do so primarily as an act of charity; they're trying to run profit-making businesses, albeit in an area of work that they love. Those people are customers of retailers like Sound Control.





Im referring more to the real-time transaction taking place between shop and customer.
The shop stands to profit, not the customer. Yes the customer may ultimately profit from his purchase, (though not likely if im the customer) but that is outside of the scope implied.

Edited by Forum Admin (02/05/08 05:06 PM)


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #611150 - 02/05/08 03:54 PM
Quote John Willett:

Quote james10001:

There should be legislation in place that protects customers, ensuring they are compensated first, not last.




I think the staff are very high on the list - maybe even before the bank (but I can't be certain about that).

Certainly, as far as I am aware, staff wages are paid before the other creditors.



1st-customers
2nd-staff
3rd-suppliers
4th-administrators
5th-bank/lender
6th-taxes

in my dreams...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #611151 - 02/05/08 03:56 PM
Quote comradec:

I don't expect that the people on this forum who run professional recording studios do so primarily as an act of charity.




That's a large assumption!

There have over the years been a few serious attempts (Private Members Bills in Parliament etc) to give customers who have paid deposits some kind of priority, but they have all foundered. Mainly because favouring one creditor means picking the pocket of another. And you can't always differentiate between "the public" and "trade", and (arguably) why should you? And what if even after you've given them a higher priority there are just not enough assets left to meet those claims? Should the government then pick up the bill? If so, why? Etc.

Paying by credit card is the safest option.

There are special protections (basically government guarantees) in place if banks or insurance companies go bust. I linked some posts back to information about the special priority for employees, again government guaranteed. That's an EU obligation.

As a taxpayer, I'd probably say I'm guaranteeing enough already!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611156 - 02/05/08 03:59 PM
Quote james10001:


1st-customers
2nd-staff
3rd-suppliers
4th-administrators
5th-bank/lender
6th-taxes

in my dreams...




I think it's more like:-

1st - administrators
2nd - taxes
3rd - staff
4th - bank
5th - suppliers
6th - customers

(3rd and 4th may be reversed - I'm not sure).

Ahhh well

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #611167 - 02/05/08 04:14 PM
Quote John Willett:


1st - administrators
2nd - taxes
3rd - staff
4th - bank
5th - suppliers
6th - customers

(3rd and 4th may be reversed - I'm not sure).

Ahhh well




From memory the actual order is ...

1.= Bank - fixed charge (they own these assets e.g. they hold the equivalent of a mortgage on a house). The bank will usually agree to the administrator being paid a fee for helping realise these assets. But only within pre-agreed limits.

1.= Any other creditor with a claim on a specific asset e.g. the provider of a leased vehicle or equipment owns that asset. Also creditors who have provided stock subject to reservation of title ("it's ours till it's paid for").

2. Administrator for other costs incurred.

3. Preferential creditors. These include some but not all employee rights (although the employee will have various claims covered by the government anyway so he doesn't care about being in this box or not). There are no longer any preferential rights for taxes (since 2000).

4. Bank - "floating charge". Usually a sweep-up where all of the company's assets not otherwise mortgaged to the bank are, well, mortgaged to the bank. BUT a "prescribed part" of this pot - around 10% (but actually subject to a complex sliding scale and capping mechanisms in large cases) must go to...

5. Ordinary creditors - taxes, suppliers, customers, directors' loans, non-preferential employee claims etc all rank equally.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Setter
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Joined: 06/11/02
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Tomadvent]
      #611176 - 02/05/08 04:20 PM
Quote Tomadvent:

To blame the banks is complete nonsense - there would be clear legal agreements in place which SC management would have freely entered into -






Well I think the banks (and the person who manages the SC account in particular) can take a bit of the blame.

No one is saying that the banks are responsible for the ongoing losses of the Sound Control business but it was a bank decision ie. choice to pull the plug .

Provided the banks apply the same rules in a consistent fashion there is no blame to be attached to them. I'll bet however that the decision by someone at the bank to pull the plug was driven by short term considerations such as the current liquidity problems (and who is to blame for that?)and a bit of gesture politics by someone wanting to appear 'steely'. Decisions in banks are made by people too and are driven by their own ambitions and greed.

Quote Tomadvent:

,
the banks can only call in administrators if those agreements are breached. IF the company had been solvent the banks could not have moved in.






I thought the banks pulled the plug on the credit line leaving SC with no option but to call the administrators in. Presumably the people in the bank acted in their own interest (to protect themselves, their career and lastly the bank) and I'll bet have little concern for the fallout among other creditors.

I guess the moral for me is that you should never get into the position of being at the mercy of a bank.

J


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Lifer
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611177 - 02/05/08 04:20 PM
Hmm..they (Manchester) still have my Triton Extreme and a Pro Tools HD AD card i took in for repair!! Anyone any ideas what i do about that??

Edited by Lifer (02/05/08 04:22 PM)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Lifer]
      #611181 - 02/05/08 04:26 PM
Contact the administrator. They are your goods. (I hope you have a receipt).

The administrator is entitled to ask for any proper costs incurred in repairing the goods, assuming it's not a warranty claim.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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can7ona



Joined: 20/05/05
Posts: 43
Loc: UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611194 - 02/05/08 04:52 PM
Firstly, I'd like to offer my best wishes to all the staff affected by this - I hope you all land on your feet.

Secondly, I'd like to comment on the general slating of Turnkey's staff. I worked there for a couple of months a few years back and in my experience the training was pretty much non-existent (so how could we ever become experts?), I think, due to the abnormally high staff turnover rate, and the conditions in which we had to work were awful (relatively speaking - I know there are worse jobs out there)

I very much doubt there's any point in going into details but I can assure you that most of the people that worked at Turnkey while I was there did everything they could for customers but were let down by other departments who never had to face the customers. Yes there were some "bad apples" there but that's true of any company.

I don't know what the implications of this will be for the industry as a whole, but I know I feel very sad about this.

Also, the Turnkey website now appears to be down.

--------------------
Sham
www.soulchefs.co.uk


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Forum AdminAdministrator



Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 2311
Loc: Cambridge
Re: Sound Control : Roland gear warranties new [Re: Ben]
      #611197 - 02/05/08 04:57 PM
Just received a Roland newsletter about Sound Control so for the benefit of those not on the mailing list, I feel it suitable to quote the relevant info below:

[snip...]

We at Roland UK are very disappointed by this turn of events, as Sound Control has been an accredited supplier of our equipment for almost two decades.

As an independent company operating separately from Sound Control, Roland UK would like to assure everyone that has purchased one of our products that the warranties on your product(s) are unaffected.

If you have ordered one of our products through Sound Control and they are unable to fulfil that order then please visit one of our other accredited suppliers to discuss your purchase.


Roland dealers may be located here

Ian G

--------------------
SOS Gear Videos now screening on Sound On Sound TV


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comradec
active member


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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: can7ona]
      #611199 - 02/05/08 05:01 PM
Quote can7ona:

Also, the Turnkey website now appears to be down.




It's working for me and a note has been added referring to the administration situation and specifying which Sound Control group stores are still trading.

I notice, however, that the Sound Control website hasn't been changed to reflect the new circumstances. Maybe they've laid off the webmasters and can't access it now?

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #611204 - 02/05/08 05:07 PM
Quote comradec:

Quote can7ona:

Also, the Turnkey website now appears to be down.




It's working for me and a note has been added referring to the administration situation and specifying which Sound Control group stores are still trading.

I notice, however, that the Sound Control website hasn't been changed to reflect the new circumstances. Maybe they've laid off the webmasters and can't access it now?



Does this mean people caught unaware could still purchase??!!! -Yes it does I just tried and orders are STILL going through.

Will the administrators immediately refund or will they take the stance lets just get as much cash in as possible?
If they wont release goods ALREADY paid for, what chance have new customers got?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611209 - 02/05/08 05:17 PM
The administrators have said they were stopping online sales immediately. The fact that a website is apparently still working does not mean that a card will be debited.

That said, 16 stores are trading and if you want to walk in and buy goods they'll take your money. They are trying to keep a business alive for the benefit of a potential purchaser of the business.

But there's a clear cut-off between pre-administration sales (where, if the transaction is not completed, it isn't now likely to be) and post-administration sales where (I grossly simplify here) you are essentially buying from Deloitte and they will honour that contract.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Forum AdminAdministrator



Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 2311
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: John Willett]
      #611210 - 02/05/08 05:18 PM
Quote John Willett:

Another question...........

Music Live

Isn't this a Sound Control Show?

Will it happen?




The organisers (NEC) are rumoured to be in discussion with another retail chain in that neck of the woods...

--------------------
SOS Gear Videos now screening on Sound On Sound TV


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #611213 - 02/05/08 05:21 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

The administrators have said they were stopping online sales immediately. The fact that a website is apparently still working does not mean that a card will be debited.

That said, 16 stores are trading and if you want to walk in and buy goods they'll take your money. They are trying to keep a business alive for the benefit of a potential purchaser of the business.

But there's a clear cut-off between pre-administration sales (where, if the transaction is not completed, it isn't now likely to be) and post-administration sales where (I grossly simplify here) you are essentially buying from Deloitte and they will honour that contract.




So in a nutshell if youve already handed over cash and are waiting for goods you can forget it.

Does this mean that an administrator could happily sell my speakers which I have already paid for to somebody else if they are willing to buy them?

PLEASE dont say yes because if you do then this is CRIMINAL!

Edited by Forum Admin (03/05/08 01:05 PM)


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Forum AdminAdministrator



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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: jrbcm]
      #611215 - 02/05/08 05:26 PM
Quote jrbcm:



I still don't fully understand - am I right in saying some staff are still at shops which are trading??




Yes, allegedly there are still several SC stores around the UK open for business to customers who walk in off the street, though I would imagine the administrators have to check if the goods in the SC shop's backroom store are paid for and thus are permitted to be sold to the public. There could well be goods in each store that are legally still owned by the supplier/distributor/manufacturer, because the invoice has not necessarily been paid yet for those products.

Has anyone out there in readerland actually been inside any SC store today or yesterday? If so, tell us about it please.

--------------------
SOS Gear Videos now screening on Sound On Sound TV


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611217 - 02/05/08 05:28 PM
Yes.

The speakers never were yours. You have lent money to a company in the hope that they might supply you with some some speakers. They didn't. They may not have speakers to sell you anyway, because they may (and probably do) belong to a supplier who has not been paid. That's why the administrator can't sell them to you.

This is complex stuff but whilst money clearly passed from you to them, title to speakers never passed in the other direction.

It's not criminal. It's the risk you take buying by mail order.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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can7ona



Joined: 20/05/05
Posts: 43
Loc: UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: comradec]
      #611224 - 02/05/08 05:34 PM
Quote comradec:

Quote can7ona:

Also, the Turnkey website now appears to be down.




It's working for me and a note has been added referring to the administration situation and specifying which Sound Control group stores are still trading.

I notice, however, that the Sound Control website hasn't been changed to reflect the new circumstances. Maybe they've laid off the webmasters and can't access it now?




Hmm... that's odd - I swear the site seemed down earlier on today (asked my friend to check from his office as well)... oh well... apologies for the mistake!

--------------------
Sham
www.soulchefs.co.uk


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #611226 - 02/05/08 05:35 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Yes.

The speakers never were yours. You have lent money to a company in the hope that they might supply you with some some speakers. They didn't. They may not have speakers to sell you anyway, because they may (and probably do) belong to a supplier who has not been paid. That's why the administrator can't sell them to you.

This is complex stuff but whilst money clearly passed from you to them, title to speakers never passed in the other direction.

It's not criminal. It's the risk you take buying by mail order.




Nah Im not having that. Its bang out of order. If I try and sell my car to two dfferent people its fraud how is this any different?

Hope a free lifetime supply of Horlicks comes with that job...

For the record I purchased in store there and then to have them ship to my home address. I was told the speakers were in stock at another branch, so at that point they were mine. I really dont believe you can say I "lent" money to sound control. That would make me a bank, and if I was a bank, I may go down to sound control, relieve everybody of their posts, change the locks and then help myself to my goods, and everybody elses for that matter.


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Parker Fly



Joined: 24/02/08
Posts: 558
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Forum Admin]
      #611236 - 02/05/08 05:51 PM
Quote Forum Admin:

Has anyone out there in readerland actually been inside any SC store today or yesterday? If so, tell us about it please.




Yes, I was in Birmingham today in a professional capacity.

Most of the stock items have been marked by their respective owners (trade suppliers), although some have chosen not to attend; I know not why some have declined to attend. There is a considerable amount of stock that remains unlabelled.

The shop was trading as normal, although in my 30 minute visit I did not see any credit cards being taken, nor did I see anyone leave with any substantial purchase. It is my educated guess, although without prejudice, that the traditional stock/till system was not operational (I can offer no explanation as to why) as hand-written receipts were being issued. If said stock/till system wasn't operational, there would be no way of aligning a receipt to an actual item, which I duly noted.

Security is in place for the deluge of customers that are expected to travel to Birmingham (being the largest store) to claim goods that they have paid for.


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Watty
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #611240 - 02/05/08 05:59 PM
Myriad the till system's server is in Dunfermline at head office and if if HQ is shut down, Myriad won't work.

--------------------

<a href="http://www.myspace.com/seagatestudio">The Seagate Studio Myspace</a>


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611248 - 02/05/08 06:21 PM
Quote james10001:

I really dont believe you can say I "lent" money to sound control.




That's pretty much the only relationship the law recognises here. If I send money to John Lewis, or Amazon, in the hope of receiving some goods, I've lent them money till the goods arrive. If I walk into Land of Leather and put a deposit on a sofa which they tell me will be made to order and available in 12 weeks, I've lent them money. It's not relevant whether I mail the money, give a card number over the phone/web, or walk into a store, give them cash, and leave without anything more than a promise. I've lent them money.

If an administrator is appointed before the promise is honoured, I'm just as stuffed as any other creditor.

What you feel your position to be in your own mind does not matter. Only your legal status matters.

All subject to your additional rights if you pay by credit card.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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comradec
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #611252 - 02/05/08 06:26 PM
Strictly speaking, any money is a loan. That's why there's a promise to pay the bearer on demand on every note.

The trouble with promises, of course, is that sometimes they're broken.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke


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markhodges



Joined: 07/01/07
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Forum Admin]
      #611256 - 02/05/08 06:31 PM
Quote Forum Admin:


Has anyone out there in readerland actually been inside any SC store today or yesterday? If so, tell us about it please.




I poppod into the oxford circus SC earlier, they were still open and selling some things but all the roland / boss gear had a sticker on it that said 'property of roland UK - not for sale' and the 'main' roland area was shut off and full of boxes. A few other displays had been cleared out / had everything removed. I overheard a rep who'd turned up in order to do a stocktake, the gist of the reply was 'no problem, everyones doing one'.

Turnkey seemed more or less the same as it has for a few weeks i.e. half the store is closed and there is very little demo gear, although they seemed to have even less stock on the shelves.

I shall miss them. I've made a lot of impulse buys (most of my gear ) from those two over the years, not to mention having fond memories of popping into turnkey on a saturday afternoon to play on the synths during my teenage years.


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Kwackman



Joined: 07/11/02
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611267 - 02/05/08 06:59 PM
Quote james10001:

Nah Im not having that. Its bang out of order.




James,
I understand your frustration, but if you decide the advice you have been given is wrong, then fine. Prove it in court.
Steve is pretty hot on legal stuff, he's telling you how he sees it.
Just because you declare something a crime, doesn't make it so.
Feel free to fight your battles, but perhaps joining a forum just to rant and ignore other (learned) advice, is not going to help you.
I can see why your very angry, and I sympathise with you.
Don't get me wrong, I really hope you get your money back, or even get your speakers.

Good luck.

--------------------
Cubase, guitars.


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MitchT



Joined: 12/11/04
Posts: 130
Loc: Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611273 - 02/05/08 07:13 PM
As a slight aside, does anyone know where one will now be able to buy Dave Smith and Moog products from?

--------------------
www.mitchthompson.co.uk


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Casiokeys



Joined: 02/08/07
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Loc: Nottingham, UK
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611285 - 02/05/08 08:07 PM
Last I heard, Fender was looking to buy out Sound Control...

--------------------
"How many drummers do you know of that kick their drums?!"


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Aftertouch
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Casiokeys]
      #611315 - 02/05/08 10:17 PM
Quote Casiokeys:

Last I heard, Fender was looking to buy out Sound Control...




You sure?

That would put them (a manufacturer) in direct competition with their retailers. Not unheard of, but can be a risky strategy.

My money is on Thomann. They have a very good reputation in the UK, although I have long suspected that they would open a very large retail park store in Lakeside or somewhere.

Time will tell I guess.

One thing is for sure, I feel sorry for any company relying on retail sales alone - whilst they may gain in the short term from this situation, I bet they are looking over their shoulder for the guys in smart suits from Canary Wharf.

Dolphin is another one to watch, whilst they are unlikely to be in a position to buy the group, I think they will benefit hugely from this. They are already one of the UK's fastest growing companies across all sectors. I bet they will think twice though about plans to open retail stores across the UK.


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Andy Cobley
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Forum Admin]
      #611329 - 02/05/08 11:20 PM
Quote Forum Admin:

Has anyone out there in readerland actually been inside any SC store today or yesterday? If so, tell us about it please.




I was briefly in the Dundee store on Thursday. It still looked like a normal trading store.

I do feel sorry for the guys working there, I've had nothing but good service and advice from them. I'll miss the store if it has to close. Tell me, where is the nearest place I can try out Roland, Korg and Yahama keyboards if it does shut ?

Andy

--------------------
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rtwoproject


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Lifer
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #611333 - 02/05/08 11:39 PM
No..sadly no reciept..the goods were warrantied..and i knew most of the staff well since i had been buying there (including my hd system) for 10 years..they just wrote it down in the book and that was that..i expected to go and pick up my repaired stuff as usual..silly me
Anyone know who to get in touch with about this..administrators etc..?


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Watty
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Lifer]
      #611357 - 03/05/08 01:58 AM
If they just "wrote it in the book" as you say then they were seriously lazy staff members. I know that from the start of this year staff had been told from high up that repairs were to be logged in Myriad (possibly the high ups wanted to have an electronic record to protect customers in the event of administration - who knows) but at the very least, you should have been furnished with the top copy of a service report sheet which every shop had in abundance.

Which Manchester shop was it? Salford might be able to help you if the stuff is instore and you know the guys well.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Lifer]
      #611366 - 03/05/08 06:53 AM
If it's "in a book" there should be some kind of record... it's not as if the administrators won't know there are customer goods in for repair. Call the local office of Deloitte, they'll sort you out from there.

The lack of issuing receipts is breathtakingly shocking though!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Kwackman]
      #611414 - 03/05/08 09:46 AM
Quote Lime ZRX:

Quote james10001:

Nah Im not having that. Its bang out of order.




James,
I understand your frustration, but if you decide the advice you have been given is wrong, then fine. Prove it in court.
Steve is pretty hot on legal stuff, he's telling you how he sees it.
Just because you declare something a crime, doesn't make it so.
Feel free to fight your battles, but perhaps joining a forum just to rant and ignore other (learned) advice, is not going to help you.
I can see why your very angry, and I sympathise with you.
Don't get me wrong, I really hope you get your money back, or even get your speakers.

Good luck.




I know what your saying and I appreciate the advice. I also knew that Steve was right, I just found it hard to swallow.
I guess I have just been very naive because I never in a million years realised anything like this could happen. I will be much more careful in future.
Also just to clarify, when I use the word criminal Im not suggesting the administrators are operating outside the law (obviously they are not), rather that it just seems very wrong indeed to me that they wont honour existing transactions, preferring to sell an item twice.
Like I say- a lesson learnt.


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robinv



Joined: 31/08/04
Posts: 733
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Andy Cobley]
      #611424 - 03/05/08 10:30 AM
Quote Andy Cobley:

Tell me, where is the nearest place I can try out Roland, Korg and Yahama keyboards if it does shut ?





Aha! That's the whole thing with this industry - we want to try stuff out and expect shops to have everything on display and yet want to pay internet prices..... Maybe in a few years all we'll have for hands-on demos is shows.

Edited by robinv (03/05/08 10:36 AM)


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The muso



Joined: 11/12/07
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: robinv]
      #611427 - 03/05/08 10:56 AM
Quote robinv:

Quote Andy Cobley:

Tell me, where is the nearest place I can try out Roland, Korg and Yahama keyboards if it does shut ?





Aha! That's the whole thing with this industry - we want to try stuff out and expect shops to have everything on display and yet want to pay internet prices..... Maybe in a few years all we'll have for hands-on demos is shows.



Just want to say something in Sound Controls defence here, speaking as a former employee back in it's more innovative days.
We had a "Take his money" policy, which is to say; 'Don't let the customer walk out the door with a price. If he's there to buy, do the deal!"

You know why the internets such a big problem for retail?
It's cos nobody seems to know how to 'sell' in this industry!
At the end of the day, if the store can't add any value to the product, qualify the customer and close the deal, then they don't deserve to be in business.
Before the internet, there was Music Mart.
There's never been a shortage of people trading on Low Margin.

If someone comes into your store and says " Joe Bloggs music is doing their midi dildo for £510, how much will you do it for?" and you instantly get the calculator out, then you are 'serving', not 'selling'.
The customer is in control.

It's time for all the small independants to grow some balls, get out on the shop floor and tackle the customer head on.

It's also time for the distributors, to stop counting their beans, to listen to the guys on the ground (the sales reps) and get behind the retailers who are genuinely backing their products, not just shifting boxes.

Tonight, we march!!!


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10443
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Aftertouch]
      #611462 - 03/05/08 01:02 PM
Quote Aftertouch:

Quote Casiokeys:

Last I heard, Fender was looking to buy out Sound Control...




You sure?

That would put them (a manufacturer) in direct competition with their retailers. Not unheard of, but can be a risky strategy.






In the case of Turnkey/Soho Soundhouse it would just put them back to where they were before becoming part of Sound Control. If I remember correctly they were owned by Arbiter who were the UK distributors for Fender.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Peter2
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Joined: 13/12/03
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Monobass]
      #611475 - 03/05/08 01:43 PM
Let's hope this whole sorry business acts as a wake up call to an industry where ignorance of the product and a bit of an attitude are only too common. How difficult can it be to:
1. Politely take the order.
2. Answer any questions patiently or find someone who can.(Yes I know that we're all convinced that we are designed for a higher purpose but in the mean time perhaps it could be enough to do the job in front of you well. It's all good practice).
3. Send the item promptly and well packaged, so it doesn't get destroyed in the post.
DV et al please take note. I'm not buying a fridge freezer from Comet.
I sympathise with the people who have lost their job but in my experience if you're any good you'll soon find work because if Turnkey were anything to go by, there's a real shortage of the right people.


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Watty
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Peter2]
      #611480 - 03/05/08 02:15 PM
Before this degenerates into a staff bashing thread, bear in mind it was market forces and bad management which caused SC's downfall. Laying the blame with the sales staff is misguided.


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simonstock
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611501 - 03/05/08 03:01 PM
Quote james10001:


Customers are not making profit, and therefore should not be exposed to risk.
There should be legislation in place that protects customers, ensuring they are compensated first, not last.




I agree with you wholeheartedly. When one of the large furniture retailers went into administration fairly recently the issue of customers losing their deposits was highlighted in the national media reports; it's disappointing that there has been no political response so far.

--------------------
Musictrack Ltd. - UK/Eire Distributor for MOTU


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Tomadvent
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Watty]
      #611507 - 03/05/08 03:15 PM
Quote Watty:

Before this degenerates into a staff bashing thread, bear in mind it was market forces and bad management which caused SC's downfall. Laying the blame with the sales staff is misguided.




Sadly I shared Peter experience - it was face-to-face staff "attitudes" which meant that I cease buying at SC in early 2007, and their "ignorance" which caused me not to recommend SC or Turnkey to clients anymore (combined purchase value in 2007/8 £20,000).

I spoke with senior managers about this at the time - but was simply told that they were struggling with "recruitment issues"

The world has changed and there are some excellent informed staff around in other retailers and SC could not compete.

If this crucial lesson is not learnt then others will follow SC into this horrendous mess


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mikcee



Joined: 26/03/08
Posts: 10
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611526 - 03/05/08 03:52 PM
I've just been informed by the Edinburgh Sound Control, that an order I had placed, and paid for, for a Focusrite Octopre Adat Card, will not be fulfilled. He gave me the number of the head office, to ask the Administrators for my money back, but they're not answering the phone today.

I'll keep you posted as to the outcome.

Mike


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Watty
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Tomadvent]
      #611542 - 03/05/08 04:41 PM
Quote Tomadvent:

The world has changed and there are some excellent informed staff around in other retailers and SC could not compete.





Writing off a whole company of over 300 employees based on one bad buying experience is very naive and simplistic. There were 26 shops, I dealt with all of them at my time there and the majority were a very knowledgable and helpful bunch. There were a few useless folk there too but that's life, these people are everywhere.

However, put yourself in the shoes of a salesman with ever increasing targets who repeatedly has to waste half his day with with those who use the shop as a personal demo facility to save pennies buying online and you might understand the frustration involved in working in high street MI sales.


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Watty]
      #611550 - 03/05/08 05:32 PM
True. While I can relate to the frustrations of dealing with clueless and ignorant staff in shops from time to time, it has to be said that working *in* those shops, you also see a fair few clueless members of the public too - it works both ways.

I can forgive lack of knowledge in a salesperson if they have a good attitude and want to try to help. I suspect that in many cases management pressures for sales reduce the shop staff to the point where it's really difficult to be helpful, because the sales staff sit in the middle of "what's best for the shop/their job" and "what's best for the customer". Sometimes those things coincide, and often they don't.

I remember from my days in shops, I'd (personally) far rather steer a customer off something they wanted if I genuinely thought they would be wasting their money, rather than make the sale knowing the customer is going to realise the mistake they made. But obviously management didn't exactly approve of that, even if you build up a relationship with customers so they would always want to buy from you when they did want to part with their money.

Also, another part of the equation is that customers in general always want the lowest possible price. Understandable, but it gets ridiculous. For example, someone would come in, interested in Product A, for one thousand pounds. I give the demo etc, they say thanks, and leave. Then then walk to the other end of town, and do the same thing at another shop, and wanting them to beat the price. They shave say five pounds off the price. They'd then come back, trying to shave another few pounds of the previous quote.

FFS, I'd have spent the extra tenner just to avoid a hour of running back and forth up the high street..! Crazy...

Some people also have the attitude that "paying ticket price" is unnaceptable, so they always have to "get a deal" even if it's only one pound, to feel like they've made a worthwhile purchase.

All the time the customer behaves in this way, retailers are going to have a hard time, with increasingly shaved margins.

Personally, I'd be happy to pay a bit more and go to someplace where I like and respect the staff, and the purchase experience is pleasant and I can build a relationship, than to get as cheap as you like from somewhere where I feel like I'm getting glared at and resented as soon as I enter the shop.

However, much as I'd like to support my local music shops, when they are overpriced, understocked, *and* full of clueless and ignorant staff who glare at you when you walk in, then gorram it, I'm ordering online, and putting up with the delivery hassles...


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james10001



Joined: 02/05/08
Posts: 24
Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: mikcee]
      #611552 - 03/05/08 05:37 PM
Quote mikcee:

I've just been informed by the Edinburgh Sound Control, that an order I had placed, and paid for, for a Focusrite Octopre Adat Card, will not be fulfilled. He gave me the number of the head office, to ask the Administrators for my money back, but they're not answering the phone today.

I'll keep you posted as to the outcome.

Mike



Mike
I will cascade the advice Ive been given onto you.

1st - administrators
2nd - taxes
3rd - staff
4th - bank
5th - suppliers
6th - customers

is the order in which any monies will be distributed. You may have a long wait and if you get any money back it will most likely be a small percentage of the initial investment.

Some good news though- It looks as thought purchases made by credit card will be covered by the card company.
Do you fall into this category?


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Seaforth
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611571 - 03/05/08 07:12 PM
I must say that in my experience (not vast but enough to get a reasonable feel for things, I reckon)what Peter politely terms "a bit of an attitude" pre-dated internet selling by decades. (Including places where those with said attitude were the owners/ managers).

I'll leave it at that.


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Seaforth
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: Ben]
      #611575 - 03/05/08 07:20 PM
Actually, I won't quite leave it at that. I completely agree that all the running round - be it literal or figurative - from place to place shaving a bit off the price when you could be earning twice as much in the same time does seem daft.

However - perhaps at least some of the blame for that could be laid with the people whose adverts invariably have "ring us" where the price should be and whose response to the question "how much is it?" is always "what have you been quoted?"

I know that once one or two start doing it it's difficult for others not to but it does rather encourage the sense that the whole thing is a bazaar rather than Marks and Sparks, don't you reckon?

Now I really am going to shut up.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Sound Control + Turnkey go into administration... new [Re: james10001]
      #611576 - 03/05/08 07:21 PM