Hello people, it's a shame my first post on here has to be on this thread!

I was just wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of getting refunds for unfulfilled orders. I know they have to prioritise all the parties owed money so where does this leave the customer?

cheers

Let me say this.
I will never that is NOT EVER buy anything from Dolphin as long as I live.

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A veteran performer, A novice composer.

You are just another creditor with no special rights... so pretty well out in the cold unfortunately.

If however you paid by credit card, contact your card issuer as then you will be covered by them.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I was talking to the area manager of Glasgow City SC last night.
He knew there were talks at HQ on Monday, but not what they were about.
He got a phone call on the Tuesday to let him know, but by the time he got to the store, the staff already knew.

I just hope Pat puts the golf clubs away long enough to make a full public explanation and an apology to SC staff.

I remember the last AGM circa 1990 vividly, when he promised the staff that they'd always be looked after so long as they stuck by SC.

Quote P.O:

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I was just wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of getting refunds for unfulfilled orders. I know they have to prioritise all the parties owed money so where does this leave the customer?

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At the very bottom of the list of creditors I think, with very little hope.

If you paid by credit card you should be OK. I suggest contacting your credit card company now if you paid this way.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

How long have SC been in trouble? I'm just astounded that, even with major financial issues, the Leeds City store moved before christmas to a brand new building, with to be honest, some very extensive works done inside. It must have cost the group a lot of money, money which they obviously didn't have.

The old site is being demolished to make way for a new tower block, so perhaps there was a decent cash sum for that, but you'd think that with financial issues and a second store already in the city, they'd just close Leeds City and pocket the cash.

C

Hope it's ok to do this here.
I've snipped out a few quotes from the Pat Kelly interview in the December 07 issue of Music Trade news;

Quote:

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So the internet isn't killing the business?
"No - we're killing the business, if it's being killed. You can't blame other people for it. The internets an opportunity."
But what about the small shop confronted with a potential buyer who says he can buy a strat for peanuts online? How can they possibly compete with that? And if they can't, what sort of future have they got?
"I remember something like this coming up at an MIA convention years ago, when someone came up with the same thing about chains. I made the point that we didn't wake up one day with 10 shops. We went out and did it. What has happened is that these guys have recognized a different route to market - a very efficient one - and it's up to the rest of us to cope with that. If we don't manage to do that, it's not going to be Gary Marshall's fault, or Hans Thomann's fault. It's our fault. Anybody whose business is being given a hard time has to look at their own business."
So does he believe the individual store stands a chance against the combined effects of chains, like his, and discounters like GAK, Dolphin and Thomann?
"In another life, or if things went bad, I could open a small music store - as could most people with the right smarts - and do very well, because that personal service is very valued by customers (snip)"

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Ooh the irony.
So Pat, when's your new music shop opening?

Quote Ray_Kemp:

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Let me say this.
I will never that is NOT EVER buy anything from Dolphin as long as I live.

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Really? I've always found them to be rather good.

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

So Monday of this week I placed an order for some Mackie Hr824'S from Sound Control cost of £850 on my credit card.
The money has already been taken, and after finally getting in touch with the store Ive been told the administrators have forbidden staff to release any goods, including my speakers. How can the creditors move in and BLATANTLY steal my money and refuse to release my goods? Am I done for?!!!

Quote John Willett:

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Quote P.O:

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I was just wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of getting refunds for unfulfilled orders. I know they have to prioritise all the parties owed money so where does this leave the customer?

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At the very bottom of the list of creditors I think, with very little hope.

If you paid by credit card you should be OK. I suggest contacting your credit card company now if you paid this way.

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ta for the reply. I thought as much. Complete nightmare!!

I think there's a lot of hypocrisy amongst some of those who laud the virtues of the small shop in comparison with the evils of a large chain. Especially when it comes from the proprietors of those small shops.

Let's be real. There really aren't all that many small shop owners who would turn down the opportunity to open a second branch if the business was there to make it viable. And then a third branch. A fourth branch. A few years later, they've got 26 and they're out of their depth.

It's happened in the music sector. It happens in every sector.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke

Quote cedd:

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How long have SC been in trouble? I'm just astounded that, even with major financial issues, the Leeds City store moved before christmas to a brand new building, with to be honest, some very extensive works done inside. It must have cost the group a lot of money, money which they obviously didn't have.

The old site is being demolished to make way for a new tower block, so perhaps there was a decent cash sum for that, but you'd think that with financial issues and a second store already in the city, they'd just close Leeds City and pocket the cash.

C

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Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...

Quote james10001:

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So Monday of this week I placed an order for some Mackie Hr824'S from Sound Control cost of £850 on my credit card.
The money has already been taken, and after finally getting in touch with the store I've been told the administrators have forbidden staff to release any goods, including my speakers. How can they steal my money and refuse to release my goods? Am I done for?!!!

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No, you are not done for, because you paid by credit card.

If SC don't supply or refund, the credit card company will.

I suggest contacting them (the credit card company) now and explaining the situation.

As some SC stores are still trading under the control of the administrators, you *may* actually get the goods.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote james10001:

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Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...

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Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.

Quote james10001:

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So Monday of this week I placed an order for some Mackie Hr824'S from Sound Control cost of £850 on my credit card.
The money has already been taken, and after finally getting in touch with the store Ive been told the administrators have forbidden staff to release any goods, including my speakers. How can they steal my money and refuse to release my goods? Am I done for?!!!

---

If it was definitely your credit card, as opposed to a debit card (such as Switch, Maestro, etc), then you should be covered by the card service provider. Get in touch with them asap.

Otherwise, I guess you'll be well down the lengthy queue of creditors. The ones who are already rich, such as the banks, get priority though.

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Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke

To all those of you who have placed orders I sincerely hope that you get your money back. As has been mentioned, credit card transactions usually carry an insurance for these situations so you should be okay.

On the subject of debtors ...

A few years ago I was working on some music for a large advertising agency here in London. I supplied the music, it was accepted, dubbed, and on air. I invoiced them for £15,000.00 and got a letter back saying the agency had gone into receivership and I was on a list. 3 years later I received £500.00 in final payment.

To add insult to injury the ad was on TV all the time, virtually every ad break. The agency must have known when they commissioned me to do the work that things were bad, indeed I am sure they must have known they were about to close. The first the staff heard of it was when they turned up for work one morning to find the doors chained up and burly security guards blocking their entry.

But the final straw was when one of the directors of the defunct agency called me a couple of weeks later from his new agency to do the music for another job!!!!!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

Quote The muso:

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Quote james10001:

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Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...

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Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.

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This is 100% correct. Do not blame Sound Control. The staff have been left to pick up the pieces and have had a TOTAL nightmare.
One staff member had just put a £2000 deposit down on a drum set, which is now evaporated. They have had to tell FUMING customers with store accounts/ credit that they have their money, but will not release any goods. As a result there has been verbal and physical abuse from disgruntled musicians, one store manager punched in the face, another store ram-raided and rioting even broke out somewhere down south. The manager I spoke to sounded like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Total carnage...
I am totalled f@c!ed off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.

Quote james10001:

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Quote The muso:

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Quote james10001:

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Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...

---

Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.

---

This is 100% correct. Do not blame Sound Control. Thbe staff have been left to pick up the pieces and have had a TOTAL nightmare. They have had to tell FUMING customers with store accounts/ credit that they have their money, but will not release any goods. As a result there has been verbal and physical abuse from disgruntled musicians, one store manager punched in the face, another store ram-raided and rioting even broke out somewhere down south.

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Bloomin Norah
The public make me sick at times.

Quote The muso:

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Quote james10001:

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Quote The muso:

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Quote james10001:

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Bank of Scotland foreclosed on them giving no notice. A member of SC staff told me the managing director was sacked on the spot by the administrators. Even he, apparently had no idea what was coming until the hour...

---

Absolutely.
I hope everyone takes this on board.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Bank.
They took the decision to lend.
They pulled the shutters down.
Now they're in a mad scramble to make sure that they get their money first and sod everybody else.

---

This is 100% correct. Do not blame Sound Control. The staff have been left to pick up the pieces and have had a TOTAL nightmare.
One staff member had just put a £2000 deposit down on a drum set, which is now evaporated. They have had to tell FUMING customers with store accounts/ credit that they have their money, but will not release any goods. As a result there has been verbal and physical abuse from disgruntled musicians, one store manager punched in the face, another store ram-raided and rioting even broke out somewhere down south. The manager I spoke to sounded like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Total carnage...
I am totalled [Email]f@c!ed[/Email] off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.

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Bloomin Norah
The public make me sick at times.

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No dont blame the public, blame the creditors.
Yes the public have overreacted badly but I can tell you that right now being just shy of £1000 down I am soo ready to kick off.
BIG TIME.

The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...

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nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

Quote Commander:

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I invoiced them for £15,000.00 and got a letter back saying the agency had gone into receivership and I was on a list. 3 years later I received £500.00 in final payment.

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Ouch

Quote:

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But the final straw was when one of the directors of the defunct agency called me a couple of weeks later from his new agency to do the music for another job!!!!!

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Did you do it?

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote Stevedog:

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The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...

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hmmmm... interesting. If they do get bought, that may be a glimmer of hope for refunds?

Quote P.O:

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Quote Stevedog:

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The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...

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hmmmm... interesting. If they do get bought, that may be a glimmer of hope for refunds?

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Maybe. But they should be docked 15 points at the start of next season.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke

Quote P.O:

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Quote Stevedog:

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The head honchos from a rather large German retial firm were in town yesterday...

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hmmmm... interesting. If they do get bought, that may be a glimmer of hope for refunds?

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Would be nice to think so but the way I heard it SC were on the verge of a BIG deal with aforementioned company when the plug was pulled leaving everyone high and dry.

Ugh.
The idea of the UK MI scene being dominated by Germany does not sit right with me.

several non uk companies have looked at buying SC (amongst other potential purchase options, or so I understand... )


there have been american as well as european parties , from the sounds of it, I'd surmise that at some stage or other they've all looked over the books and run a mile....

why buy a going concern with liabilities "issues" when you can wait for it to vaporise and simply move in on the turf, buying what you want from the liquidation proceedings.


???

not helpful , or cheerful perhaps... but a definite potential reality .

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Commander:

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But the final straw was when one of the directors of the defunct agency called me a couple of weeks later from his new agency to do the music for another job!!!!!

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You should have said:- "Yes, for £30,000, payable in advance"

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote The muso:

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Ugh.
The idea of the UK MI scene being dominated by Germany does not sit right with me.

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would you rather they only sold British products too?

Slim pickings.

Quote james10001:

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I am totalled [Email]f@c!ed[/Email] off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.

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Excuse me, but why is it the creditors' fault? It was the company, run by its directors, which took your money.

Creditors, like anyone else, have a right to say enough is enough (probably at the tail end of a long chain of broken promises). A bank can only intervene when (pre-agreed) banking covenants are breached, i.e. in accordance with the contract the company freely entered into with the bank (and then broke).

Taking deposits from members of the public for goods which are not delivered means the administrators MUST put in an adverse report (rather than a clean one) on directors' conduct, which the government's Insolvency Service will then consider with a view to determining whether to apply to the court for the directors to be disqualified from acting as company directors for a period of up to 15 years.

Directors run companies, not their creditors. And directors have a legal obligation to safeguard the interests of creditors, including you (or your credit card issuer who will claim in your place).

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Max!:

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Steve, many UK distribution operations, are independent of their relevant main corporation... and it's THEY that will bear any losses, NOT the "parent" corporation ....

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Roland UK have sent staff to every remaining SC store to make claim and mark each and every piece of equipment they own, from expensive workstations all the way down to leads connecting said equipment.

The idea that Roland UK will simply accept the losses, and that said losses will no effect on their overall status is considerably wide of the actual mark.

The administrators have also appointed 'security' for many of the remaining stores as they are expecting (and infact this has already happened) those that have lost out to visit those remaining stores to claim goods that they have already paid for.

Quote Monobass:

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Quote The muso:

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Ugh.
The idea of the UK MI scene being dominated by Germany does not sit right with me.

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would you rather they only sold British products too?

Slim pickings.

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It's not that mate.
I used to work for Telex when it was effectively being run by Germans.
A traumatic experience.

Quote Parker Fly:

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The idea that Roland UK will simply accept the losses, and that said losses will no effect on their overall status is considerably wide of the actual mark.

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Who said that?

If they've been advised by even half-competent lawyers all supplies will have been subject to industry-standard retention of title agreements conferring upon them the status of secured creditors (to the value of unsold stock supplied by them).

This has been well established law and practice for 30 years. They are just agreeing with the administrators what stock is involved. Nobody is suggesting they should give up any rights they have. Why on earth should they?

I simply said Roland Corporation is worth $789 million. They probably got there by not rolling over in these situations. Good for them.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (02/05/08 12:58 PM)

Quote Steve Hill:

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Quote james10001:

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I am totalled [Email]f@c!ed[/Email] off with these creditors who have used cloak and dagger tactics in a very sneaky way to ensure they get their hands on EVERYBODY'S loot.

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Excuse me, but why is it the creditors' fault? It was the company, run by its directors, which took your money.

Creditors, like anyone else, have a right to say enough is enough (probably at the tail end of a long chain of broken promises). A bank can only intervene when (pre-agreed) banking covenants are breached, i.e. in accordance with the contract the company freely entered into with the bank (and then broke).

Taking deposits from members of the public for goods which are not delivered means the administrators MUST put in an adverse report (rather than a clean one) on directors' conduct, which the government's Insolvency Service will then consider with a view to determining whether to apply to the court for the directors to be disqualified from acting as company directors for a period of up to 15 years.

Directors run companies, not their creditors. And directors have a legal obligation to safeguard the interests of creditors, including you (or your credit card issuer who will claim in your place).

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My apologies I feel I have used incorrect terminology. To be more precise I mean the administrators who have frozen transactions. They are the people who have stolen money from me, because they will not release goods that are rightfully mine having paid for them!
I do not accept it is Sound Controls fault as they did not want to stop trading.

I worked instore and in head office for a total of 7 years and although saddened by the news, I'm not totally surprised.

There's a combination of factors for the death of the company in my opinion, you can't blame the bank fully for their inevitable decision. SC had got too big too quickly, for years gross profit was decreasing while overheads were increasing, stock control was almost non existent, there were too many people in middle/senior management whose input to the company was questionable and considering how important internet sales is nowadays the website was an utter disgrace.

When I left head office in 2006, SC were on the brink of ordering the Legacy range of cheap Chinese garbage. This was a crude attempt to up their average gross profit to bring some value back to the company but it backfired. There have always been shoestring local shops selling that sort of tat - people would go to SC for the quality products which you didn't get in ye olde world music shops.

I heard from an ex colleague that SC are still in talks with the Norwegian company trying to hammer out a deal on the remaining shops. I reckon the deal will happen and the remaining shops will stay open under new management. It makes sense - the chain did make good money pre-AOS buyout days. It all went badly wrong from there and it's no coincidence that the vast majority of the stores to close were the ex AOS ones.

I feel sickened for all the hardworking and loyal staff out of a job though, especially Richard the manager in Southampton who's apparently on holiday and found out by phone call from his staff after they'd had their marching orders from the administrators...awful situation for all those involved

Quote Watty:

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there were too many people in middle/senior management whose input to the company was questionable

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One of em's now wrecking Gibson/Epiphone.

Quote:

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and considering how important internet sales is nowadays the website was an utter disgrace.

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Quoted for truth!

Quote comradec:

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If it was definitely your credit card, as opposed to a debit card (such as Switch, Maestro, etc), then you should be covered by the card service provider. Get in touch with them asap.

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I believe it is known as a Section 75 claim - because it is covered by section 75 of the consumer credit act.

Even if you paid by debit card you should still contact your bank as they have been known to issue refunds in other cases of companies going into liquidation. It might take a little persuasion though.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

To blame the banks is complete nonsense - there would be clear legal agreements in place which SC management would have freely entered into - the banks can only call in administrators if those agreements are breached. IF the company had been solvent the banks could not have moved in.

People saying that the senior managers knew nothing - of course they knew of the financial difficulties - they would not know of the administrators arrival cos that is done deliberately to avoid any malpractice.

To blithely say that SC control did not want to "stop trading" is meaningless in this context.

Other bidders (German Norgewgian or whatever) would have had to show "due care" and would not have bid for a company with huge commitments - who can blaim them for waiting until they can discuss with the administrators rather than with a management that had placed the firm the in the mess in the first place and there would be legally accurate information available from a firm like Deloitte.

There has to be a certain irony in the name - one thing is evident there was not "sound control" of the business.

Quote Tomadvent:

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To blame the banks is complete nonsense - there would be clear legal agreements in place which SC management would have freely entered into - the banks can only call in administrators if those agreements are breached. IF the company had been solvent the banks could not have moved in.

People saying that the senior managers knew nothing - of course they knew of the financial difficulties - they would not know of the administrators arrival cos that is done deliberately to avoid any malpractice.

To blithely say that SC control did not want to "stop trading" is meaningless in this context.

Other bidders (German Norgewgian or whatever) would have had to show "due care" and would not have bid for a company with huge commitments - who can blaim them for waiting until they can discuss with the administrators rather than with a management that had placed the firm the in the mess in the first place and there would be legally accurate information available from a firm like Deloitte.

There has to be a certain irony in the name - one thing is evident there was not "sound control" of the business.

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I can and will blame the administrators for the theft of my money because it is they who have forbidden sound control to release goods which i am entitled to, having already paid for them.

Quote james10001:

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To be more precise I mean the administrators who have frozen transactions. They are the people who have stolen money from me, because they will not release goods that are rightfully mine having paid for them!

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I'm sure Deloitte will understand it is only the emotions of the situation that lead you to charge them with theft!

The administrator has no option but to freeze the situation as he finds it, preserving equity between the creditors. How would you feel if, say, he paid off another creditor out of sympathy, reducing the pot of assets available in which you would share?

He can't do it. It's against the law. He'd lose his licence and be struck off. You're shooting the messenger. If you don't like the law take it up with your MP.

There are good questions to be asked about why the directors, knowing the precarious situation of the company, did not put customers' advance payments in a designated trust account (something like a solicitor's clients' account) which would have been immune to the claims of the administrators and could in due course have been unwound to give you a full refund. It is not at all unusual for companies in such a situation, if they seek expert advice, to be told that this is what they should be doing. Again, the failure to seek advice (or if they did, the failure to act on it) indicates culpability by the directors and no-one else.

Quote james10001:

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I do not accept it is Sound Controls fault as they did not want to stop trading.

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No company wants to go bust. That's one of the reasons why it is a criminal offence for directors to keep trading beyond the point where the directors knew or ought to have known that an insolvent liquidation was unavoidable.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (02/05/08 02:20 PM)

What a mess... ;(