Quote narcoman:

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- Massive attack have sold quite a lot of records I reckon (heh).... somewhat more than Mr Cobham.

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I guess that's where the disconnect lies. You talk about record sales, I talk about creativity. Sometimes the two meet, but not always.

Quote Richard Graham:

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have you checked out some of Billy's later solo albums (apart from Mahavishnu, which I also rate highly)... Spectrum is the most famous (why is that??), but Inner Conflicts, A Funky Thide of Sings, and Crosswinds, all contain fabulous music. I'm still a BC noob, really, but he is 'top boy' as far as I'm concerned.

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Yup, those albums (incl. 'Eclipse') were sensational at the time (I'm old enough to remember ). To this day, Inner Conflicts sounds to me as if it travelled back in time from our distant future, when we are going to be ruled by grey aliens and live in holographic underground cities.

Quote desmond:

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I personally am more interested in the debate about sampling, rather than the debate about Tui's opinions or the way he expresses them...

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Me too. I'm not that interested in my own opinions anyway.

Quote Ian Stewart:

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If I understand you correctly, its fine if I take a previous theme, provided it is written out and played by real musicians. However it is wrong to take a recording and transform it electronically. I obviously disagree with you on this.

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No, I think its objectionable to base your own success as an artist on someone else's work, a la Basic Attack/'Stratus'. Im not going to try to explain that again.

Quote Ian Stewart:

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However I do think you are categorically wrong in how much copying happens in classical music and hope I have shown this above.

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You have done no such thing. Read my posts again.

I really have nothing more to say, except maybe that, in a way, I feel a bit sorry for the OP for giving him such an earful. Nothing personal for sure, but sometimes I get bored with being politically correct all the time. Anyway...

Go forth and be happy.

Quote molecular:

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Quote Richard Graham:

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Is 'Don't Look Back in Anger' a terrible song, because the piano at the start sounds like Imagine?

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I feel this particular question is letting down an otherwise valid point...

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You could be right, my examples were a bit of a scattergun approach, and what's more, Tui didn't bite, either.

Actually, what am I on about, I like Don't Look Back In Anger!

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Richard Graham:

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Quote Darclinc:

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You know what, you're right, I can't really think of something more satisfying than people appreciating my music only when someone famous happens to sample it.

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Ignoring the sarcasm for a minute, why would recognition by one's peers through being sampled by them, be a worse way of being appreciated than having a DJ play your record on the radio?

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To be honest I wouldn't really see that as "recognition by my peers".

To me, personally, recognition would be for whoever to contact me and say "Hey guy, I liked so and so track, how about we collaborate on something because you've clearly got something special here and I like your skills."

But that's just my opinion.

Also, being sampled by someone and having your own stuff played on the radio clearly isn't even the same ballpark.

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

Quote Darclinc:

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Also, being sampled by someone and having your own stuff played on the radio clearly isn't even the same ballpark.

D.

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Could you explain why you think this? Presumably you think it's better to be played on the radio? I've only had one track I drummed on played by on Radio 1 by Peel (RIP), and obviously I was chuffed to bits. But if Shadow or Beck sampled the drums off the intro to that song, I think I'd be more chuffed, not less!

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

i dont think anyone i know would call massive attack hip hop.

its been said before.. theres a load of great MUSIC thats sample based. end of.

from grime to hip hop... im always going to relate to what these people are doing because these people arent self important, self indulgent elitists convinced that their way is the be all and end all.

theres also an argument that making music with samples only is more restrictive, because you have to find or manipulate a sound to work well.

I know a load of people who make sample based music who COULD get people in to play an inst, but would prefer to dg.

Im easy either way. anything goes for me as long as it sounds good. Some of my favourite ghostface tracks are almost entirley another song with a beat on start to finish and its ill cus hes amazing and its got panache.

I understand Tui perfectly, and I see no need for anyone to change their views other than simply being open minded. That is a personal issue though.

...and if I may add to the discussion a simple point - from the perspective of a DJ, he/she is already playing other peoples music and generally have a passion about other people's creations. To sample snippets/phrases out of them is a matter of liking what you're hearing and wanting to add to it, whether you are a musician in your own right or not.

There was a time when using a microphone was seen as a sign of weakness, that your voice would not carry on it's own in a live situation. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Quote snipsnip:

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i dont think anyone i know would call massive attack hip hop.

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If you're referring to my comment, then no, I wouldn't either. But Trip Hop, being the British (or Bristolish!) version of Hip Hop (in a basic sense) refers to Hip Hop as it's major influence - hence the inclusion of them under a broad umbrella, in the same way that cLOUDDED are.

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I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
Twitter

Quote Richard Graham:

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Could you explain why you think this? Presumably you think it's better to be played on the radio? I've only had one track I drummed on played by on Radio 1 by Peel (RIP), and obviously I was chuffed to bits. But if Shadow or Beck sampled the drums off the intro to that song, I think I'd be more chuffed, not less!

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Sure I could explain.

I do think it would be better to be played. Don't get me wrong, I would be "kind of flattered" if someone famous decided to sample one of my tracks. But still, at least I know that if I were played on the radio it was because I was selected based on my own merit, because it's me on there, my skills, not a very select part of my work that's been sampled by some famous guy and thus now "my work's getting recognition from my peers" because it's riding on the back of his fame. Ultimately I too will probably disappear into the crowd of other names that are credited on that album cover, if I am credited at all. What so great about being "famous" by association, kinda like that dirty slag, Paris Hilton ?

"Hey, did you know such and such got sampled by DJ Shadow on this record."

"Really ? Who is this guy ?"

"I've no idea ! But how about that DJ Shadow, he sure kicks ass, he's so talented, etc."

That doesn't mean anything to me as an artist striving for individuality, really, and it sure wouldn't feel like true recognition for all the years I've put in to get where I am today. True recognition would perhaps be to become famous for yourself and for who you are, wouldn't you agree ?

Just my view on the matter.

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

Valid point, Darclinc, but to add there is also the very possible chance of others tracking down your work because the particular sample they've heard sounds good to them, I do it constantly, almost obsessively actually. If I hear a sample in a tune, I usually want to hear and own the original (if it's a good 'sound'). In that respect, sampling can be mutually beneficial to each artist.

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I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
Twitter

I have no desire to be famous: I'd much rather be recognised by someone who knows, as being good at what I do. If Massive Attack, DJ Shadow, RZA or Beck sampled me, that would be proof, and a great honour. If that makes me a 'slag' like Paris Hilton, I your eyes, so be it.

An aside: I wonder how many people got into Cobham through hearing him on Blue Lines?

Tangent: is Cobham a slag because Massive Attack sampled him?

Incidentally: I've not used samples of records in my music for years and years, but only because I'm perverse like that. For me the DIY ethic is just that: Do It Yourself. But not everybody subscribes: and I wouldn't call out the RZA, MA, Beck, Shadow etc. These are all great talents.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote geefunk:

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Valid point, Darclinc, but to add there is also the very possible chance of others tracking down your work because the particular sample they've heard sounds good to them, I do it constantly, almost obsessively actually. If I hear a sample in a tune, I usually want to hear and own the original (if it's a good 'sound'). In that respect, sampling can be mutually beneficial to each artist.

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Fair enough, if it's mutually beneficial like that then I'm all for it. However, if I absolutely had to choose one or the other I'd choose to have my own stuff heard, personally.

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

Quote Richard Graham:

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I have no desire to be famous: I'd much rather be recognised by someone who knows, as being good at what I do. If Massive Attack, DJ Shadow, RZA or Beck sampled me, that would be proof, and a great honour.

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Are you saying that if you walked into the record store and picked up the latest Shadow album, listened to it and found one of your tastiest licks on there, you'd feel a sense of reward and recognition for your work ?

I'd feel ripped off, mate.

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

Quote Darclinc:

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I think most people's views on the rights and wrongs of sampling will change quite a bit if for example an Amon Tobin or DJ Shadow samples their work and makes a ton of money of it. Then we will see who truly approves and who doesn't ...

Personally I don't sample other people's work and I never will. Each to his own though.

D.

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Amon Tobin has sampled my work and I got paid very well - i've made FAR more dosh out of the sample use than the track ever made on its own. Publishing see.....

Quote Richard Graham:

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Quote molecular:

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Quote Richard Graham:

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Is 'Don't Look Back in Anger' a terrible song, because the piano at the start sounds like Imagine?

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I feel this particular question is letting down an otherwise valid point...

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You could be right, my examples were a bit of a scattergun approach, and what's more, Tui didn't bite, either.

Actually, what am I on about, I like Don't Look Back In Anger!

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oh well. each to their own, as someone said somewhere else in this thread. for what it's worth, I'm with you. I got embroiled in a long and painful thread here once because I was holding out that DJing and turntablism, if skillful and creative enough, could be considered musicianship. I was frankly appalled at the tunnel-vision of some the replies I got. Most of them turned out to be piggybacking a perfectly interesting discussion for the sake of having their bi-monthly rant on the cheap, so I stopped worrying about it...

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Hey T,

I only mentioned the record sales thing because you did - you know how I am on the whole artist first debate!!


edit - ah , it wasnt you. My apologies...

As for Massive Attack sampling instead of performing - that's not the point. Massive attack have a LOT of money - they could have hired the right players to do the job (they could have hired (**oops nearly gave the game away **) on drums for a start - leading session player and award winning jazzer extraordinaire). Sampling is an art like no other - it's a statement more than a skill. To you the statement is "i can't be bothered" but to others the statement can be taken as "[ ****** ] the system" "this is better" "my comment on the background of this" " an update to history " etc etc etc.... Same as choosing a Fender Twin over an Marshall JTM.....

Quote narcoman:

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Quote Darclinc:

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I think most people's views on the rights and wrongs of sampling will change quite a bit if for example an Amon Tobin or DJ Shadow samples their work and makes a ton of money of it. Then we will see who truly approves and who doesn't ...

Personally I don't sample other people's work and I never will. Each to his own though.

D.

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Amon Tobin has sampled my work and I got paid very well - i've made FAR more dosh out of the sample use than the track ever made on its own. Publishing see.....

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QED2.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote narcoman:

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Quote Darclinc:

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I think most people's views on the rights and wrongs of sampling will change quite a bit if for example an Amon Tobin or DJ Shadow samples their work and makes a ton of money of it. Then we will see who truly approves and who doesn't ...

Personally I don't sample other people's work and I never will. Each to his own though.

D.

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Amon Tobin has sampled my work and I got paid very well - i've made FAR more dosh out of the sample use than the track ever made on its own. Publishing see.....

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Yeah sure, but you got paid didn't you, which makes it a fair trade, obviously.

Although, if you didn't and he made a bunch of money of your work, would it still be OK ? Of course not. That's what all my posts have been based upon, clearly.

Furthermore, I wasn't referring to Amon Tobin directly, I merely used him as example of a artist that samples. I love Amon Tobin actually, he's one of my all time favorite artists.

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

but that would be illegal - no-one is talking about illegal sampling. Tui is opposed to sampling other peoples works whether cleared or not. VERY few records these days involve illegal sampling. Clearing it is easy and (usually ) cheaper in advance.

What's sampling? Is that where you steal someones compositional skill and recording session, along with their producer and very expensive hardware, import it into a £500 sampler and call it your own music? Ok, I use samples but I would'nt base my whole composition on a recognizable riff, surely it's better to express your own creativity than emulate someone elses but then I guess you have to cater for people who do'nt mind listening to 447 different versions of the same song!

Do'nt be so bloody lazy, write your own music!

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Rab

Edited by Rabid47 (13/05/08 05:08 PM)

Quote Rabid47:

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What's sampling? Is that where you steal someones compositional skill and recording session, along with their producer and very expensive hardware, import it into a £500 sampler and call it your own music?
...

Do'nt be so bloody lazy, write your own music!

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That's another way of putting it.

Quote narcoman:

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Tui is opposed to sampling other peoples works whether cleared or not.

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Oh, can't say I agree with that.

After all, it's your property, so you are free to do with it as you please, innit ?

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

One of my favourite albums is Dreadzone's Second Light which makes extensive use of sampling, both of speech from (old) films and of the music that the original music on the album is half in the style of.
Personally I think an assertion that any of the sampling on that album is not 100% artistically legitimate is a lunatic notion.

Use of samples can bring about a synergistic result of a nature that would not be possible without using those samples. Without the samples Second Light uses it would not be the, to me, the colossal pleasure to listen to that it is - I want those samples there and in that context. I listen to music for pleasure and if it is a pleasure to hear the samples used in the way that they are used on Second Light then that is all the reason they need to be there. If I watch A Canterbury Tale and see the scene of Eric Portman giving his 'follow the old road' speech then I can experience the type of pleasure one might from watching a film - I would take great issue with a person who said I was not able to hear that speech where it is used on Second Light giving the spine tingling effect that it does in that very different musical context.

Quote Rabid47:

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but then I guess you have to cater for people who do'nt mind listening to 447 different versions of the same song!

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I have no problem with that, just think of jazz standards, hundreds of versions of the same song. Because Julie Andrews recorded "My Favourite things" does that make the John Coltrane version unacceptable? I didn't realise I was not to take the Crosby, Stills Nash and Young or Matthew's Southern Comfort's versions of "Woodstock" seriously because Joni Mitchell had already done it.

Back to classical music, are you suggesting only one version of the "In Nomine" mass is acceptable, all the others must be rejected? After all they are all based on the same plainchant, which after all is a song, albeit a religious one.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote Rabid47:

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What's sampling? Is that where you steal someones compositional skill and recording session, along with their producer and very expensive hardware, import it into a £500 sampler and call it your own music?

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No. No it's not.

Quote Rabid47:

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Ok, I use samples but I would'nt base my whole composition on a recognizable riff

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Good for you.

Are we talking about sampling here, or about ripping people off? Anything from using a great single snare drum sound to programme with, to contorting some kind of chord sequence into something completely different is sampling. I think original question is being hijacked here... If all people want to do is proclaim that 'ice ice baby' sold us a pup, they needn't get so het up about it, I think we all know that...

My favourite music to sample from is mariachi bands!

let's hear it!

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Sampling is a valid art form. There is no doubt about that in my mind. I use (licensed) samples all the time, as well as sampling my own stuff. As has been said by others, there is a certain type of effect or sound that can only be rendered though sampling.

However, I think the OP was implying that he was simply going to rip some motown samples without having them cleared, which would be wrong. Using uncleared samples, whatever people think about its artistic validity, is illegal. Full stop.

If that's not what the OP was implying, and he is intent on clearing the samples for use, then I apologise in advance.

Quote Neil C:

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Use of samples can bring about a synergistic result of a nature that would not be possible without using those samples.

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So recorded music before samplers were invented obviously had no synergistic results? Makes you wonder why people bother to sample it. The original musicians used instruments to produce their music and while the occasional tape-loop might be used, I'm sure more skill was required to produce an album than simply chopping up audio, time-stretching, pitch-correcting etc. most of which is handled by software anyway, making sample-based composition a piece of p*ss, even for a dummy like me! Loop-based sampling seems to be geared towards those who can't or won't play their instruments and certainly won't make the effort to compose. I think it's funny when sample-based artists say that they're really pleased with their work when the only major work involved seems to be someone elses. You've only got to listen to Frank Zappa's Synclavier work to realize the full creative uses of sampling. No loops there! When people start using their samplers to compose, rather than copy, I'll be more inclined to think of the sampler as a musical instrument. I play bass, guitar, keyboards, drums and sax.....oh, I can also press buttons....


Certainly stirred up a hornets nest, here......

Good for me!

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Rab

Quote Ian Stewart:

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Because Julie Andrews recorded "My Favourite things" does that make the John Coltrane version unacceptable?

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No. It's the Julie Andrews version that's unacceptable. Would it have been any better if Julie Andrews had sampled the John Coltrane version?

(John Coltrane was talking to Miles Davis backstage before a gig and expressed concern that, no matter what his set list consisted of, every gig of a nine month tour seemed to evolve into yet another version of 'My Favourite Things' (sometimes, the whole gig) and he had a real problem of not being able to stop playing it. Mile's advice was short and to the point: 'Try taking the motherf***ing horn out of your mouth...'. What a pro!)


R-r-r-r-raindrops and r-r-r-r-roses..(in a Pentatonic scale!).


(You're not THE Ian Stewart, are you?).

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Rab

Quote Rabid47:

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(You're not THE Ian Stewart, are you?).

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There are several :

The keyboard player with the Rolling Stones - now dead.

The Neo-Nazi musician - now dead

The band leader who played with Carroll Gibbons at the Savoy (don't know if he is still alive).

The mathematician.

The excellent Canadian electro-acoustic composer.

I'm another one. My name is a real problem and as I lived in the Mediterraean and dealt with many Italian and German music organisations I got used to being called Jan. I nearly used that as a professional name but when I started out, thirty years ago, Jan was always a girl's name in the U.K. It would have been embarrassing because I did a lot of cocktail music and I didn't want people think they were booking a girl and I turned up. Especially as I had a girl's hairstyle at the time. The trouble is I don't like my first name and anyway I thought using three names was pretentious. With the Scottish diaspora there are going to be a lot more males with my name.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote Rabid47:

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Quote Neil C:

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Use of samples can bring about a synergistic result of a nature that would not be possible without using those samples.

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So recorded music before samplers were invented obviously had no synergistic results?

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he said 'OF A NATURE'. read the post, dude.

Quote Rabid47:

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...making sample-based composition a piece of p*ss, even for a dummy like me!

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It's only as easy as you make it. Yes - taking someone else's bass line and another someone else's drum loop and whacking them together is pretty much as easy as whacking two lego bricks together. However, if you want to make it difficult and rewarding and creative...

Quote Rabid47:

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When people start using their samplers to compose, rather than copy, I'll be more inclined to think of the sampler as a musical instrument.

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I've got one word for you: Squarepusher. And for everyone out there who is thinking of replying with a kind 'oh, he might be good but the general point remains true...' when you haven't heard any squarepusher (or similiar) - don't bother. Go and LISTEN to some ingenious and creative music created using samples. Then come back.

Everyone (including me...) is reeling off names that are either good (in defence of sampling) or rubbish (against sampling). Well, while some samplers are simply amazing, some people who make music using samples just have no dignity, self-esteem or work ethic. Given that y'all are engineers in one way or another, it can't have escaped your attention that the same is true of musicians...

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Frontier Psychaitrist by Avalanches, genious use of samples,
That horrid Suger Babes thing with the Gary Numan sample or the other girly band one with the Depeche sample, lazy song writing. Ready made hooks for kids with no taste who'll buy a record based purly on the music video. The girls are quite lovely though. Is it wrong to watch MTV bass with the sound off?
So like all musical genres some of it's total sh**e and some of it's amazing.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Tastes differ I guess, but the Sugababes' use of the Gary Numan sample sounds great to me. Also it reminds me, Gary Numan seemed to have great riffs falling out of his arse,if you'll pardon my turn of phrase.

OTOH I can't get away with Madonna sampling ABBA. It just sounds lazy to me, in a way that Sugababes doesn't.

DJ Shadow and Squarepusher use of sampling is something completely different from Sugababes or Madge though. You might as well compare Chesney Hawkes and Jimi Hendrix, because they both play(ed) guitars.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

to me the Sugababes examples are more "mashups" than sampling - they're taking an existing song and changing the vocals and beats, essentially. same thing with their Sting song.

there's a difference, i think.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote Richard Graham:

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Tastes differ I guess, but the Sugababes' use of the Gary Numan sample sounds great to me. Also it reminds me, Gary Numan seemed to have great riffs falling out of his arse,if you'll pardon my turn of phrase.

OTOH I can't get away with Madonna sampling ABBA. It just sounds lazy to me, in a way that Sugababes doesn't.

DJ Shadow and Squarepusher use of sampling is something completely different from Sugababes or Madge though. You might as well compare Chesney Hawkes and Jimi Hendrix, because they both play(ed) guitars.

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Well, being more than old enough to remember the original ABBA track I actually think Madonna's track is better. !! eek!

Quote narcoman:

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Well, being more than old enough to remember the original ABBA track I actually think Madonna's track is better. !! eek!

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Shhhhh, never admit things like this in a public forum.
I am still in my early twenties.


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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Mash-ups are different. However "I need a miracle" I thought was a brilliant mash-up, I bet most people thought it was just an ordinarily produced pop song. I also like "Take me to the cloud above".

I never knew Squarepusher used samples though.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote Darclinc:

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being sampled by someone and having your own stuff played on the radio clearly isn't even the same ballpark.

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It ain't even the same motherf***ing sport!

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Rab

Quote Ian Stewart:

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Mash-ups are different. However "I need a miracle" I thought was a brilliant mash-up, I bet most people thought it was just an ordinarily produced pop song. I also like "Take me to the cloud above".

I never knew Squarepusher used samples though.

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that was kind of a corollary point - using someone's snare drum, or a chord hit, or a slice of vocal from recycle - how would you know it was sampled? and what's the difference between sampling them yourself and using prerecorded drum hits from reason?

all a bit too vague to argue about if you ask me...

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

I read the post, dude. So what is 'of a nature?' Either they had synergistic results or they did'nt. I think you'll find synergistic results occur naturally as a result of combining two or more audio tracks.


Does using a drum machine make you a drummer?


I am not a Troll but can see the attraction.......

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Rab

Quote Rabid47:

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I am not a Troll but can see the attraction.......

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Forget it, mate... It seems, arguing the virtues of original song-writing here is akin to arguing the virtues of celibacy in a brothel.

A mash up is when you use the main elements of two existing songs to create a symbiotic track.
Writing a totally new song using somebody elses hook (not a small well chosen sample but the actual HOOK!) is sampeling, and lazy like larry the lazy lizard. Not that all sampeling is lazy, far from it (see my example of the avalanches)If you've written a new song you obviously have the ability to write a riff that fits it so why use such an obvious sample. Why not just do a sexy cover? Are friends electric would take on a whole new sexy meaning if Riaahannaa (is that how one spells it?) were to sing it. And imagine the video?

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/