Mash-ups? Don't get them started!

My favourite mash-up is Gay Paranoia. I'm not sure who did it, but it samples (or mashes up) Black Sabbath and Electric Six.

Another great Sabbath quote is on the intro to an Ice-T record (I think it's Freedom of Speech... Just Watch What You Say)... Jello Biafra ranting like a fascist over the introductory passage of the Sabs 1st album.

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote molecular:

---

when you haven't heard any squarepusher (or similiar) - don't bother.

---

Ok, you convinced me. I won't bother!

--------------------
Rab

I think the term gets bandied about by people trying to validate their mediocrity (as songwriters). Actual mash-ups can be clever and interesting though.
Just my opinion.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Edited by Handlestash (14/05/08 01:01 PM)

Quote Tui:

---

Quote Rabid47:

---

I am not a Troll but can see the attraction.......

---

Forget it, mate... It seems, arguing the virtues of original song-writing here is akin to arguing the virtues of celibacy in a brothel.

---

Quote Ian Stewart:

---

Quote Rabid47:

---

(You're not THE Ian Stewart, are you?).

---

There are several :

The keyboard player with the Rolling Stones - now dead.

---

Ian Stewart's (Stones) dead? Jeezus, sorry to hear that. When did that happen?


You'll be telling me next that Brian Jones is too......


ps. Ian's a fine name. Wright? ....................(not a Gooner, actually WHUFC)

Quote Tui:

---

Quote Rabid47:

---

I am not a Troll but can see the attraction.......

---

Forget it, mate... It seems, arguing the virtues of original song-writing here is akin to arguing the virtues of celibacy in a brothel.

---

THAT's what I mean Tui - that kind of inflammatory statement (okay, I note you put smilies in there)..... in my career so far I've created Hip Hop work (as a producer not a writer) with samples, I've written a couple of hit (rock)records, written for orchestra and written or produced countless other album works earning my publisher and me a pretty packet....now because I chose to use some samples for their sonic, political and vibe value doesnt make me any less a writer..... I can assure you on both a commercial and artistic level.....chosing your tools is the key.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to make generic factual statements about what is art (okay - maybe I'll let Aqua of off this line etc).....you can have opinion sure - but there is no fact. I'm a better musician than Noel Gallagher on a technical level. I absolutely know my way around theory MUCH more than him and I'm certainly a better guitarist....that DOES NOT undermine his creative ability as an artist. Sure - I don't like his work, but he can play guitar and he's strung some chords and lines together (ahem) to make it work.
"not good enough - he's shoddy" I hear you cry.

Okay - I reckon I can outstrip Sean Callery in knowledge and most definitely on body of work..... Am I better than him? Dunno - he won the Emmy even though I recorded and produced ! I'm that kind of producer - I'm SUPPOSED to know more than the people I work with - otherwise what would be the point....

Right let's move on - what about Vaughan Williams? I'd be an idiot to even remotely think I'm anywhere near his league.....what about Frank Zappa? What about John Lennon? okay - what about Snoop Dogg ? higher or lower? alright - Ron Grainer....?.... It's very very easy to look down ones nose at those with lesser technical skills and idolise those with more....I do neither. I look at the work and see if I think it is good - does it sound good, does it communicate. If it doesn't - then in my opinion it's [ ****** ]...whether done by Aqua, Radiohead or Debussy. Opinion is ALL that it is. I am willing to bet that you CAN"T (even if you wanted to, which I'm sure you don't !!)) put together an RnB or hip hop sample based track that fans of that genre would accept. It's out of your ability's jurisdiction!

..... The point being? cleverness, success even genius - it's awarded TO one not a given based on learning. Einsteins mathematics isn't/wasn't significantly better than mine - there are no concepts in his math work that I cannot grasp and dance with. The genius came with his creativity - and so it is with music, whether it be sample based or paper and pencil.

Jesus Christ dude...

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Handlestash:

---

Jesus Christ dude...

---

a fine harmonica player....

Quote Tui:

---

Quote Rabid47:

---

I am not a Troll but can see the attraction.......

---

Forget it, mate... It seems, arguing the virtues of original song-writing here is akin to arguing the virtues of celibacy in a brothel.

---

You can call it 'original song-writing' if you like, Tui: I call it what it is: ripping off an overused VCVCBVC musical format and just slapping a few new chord progressions, riffs and words in!

The truth is, if you can't invent an entire new genre every time you sit down to write, you are talentless pond-life.

And that is a fact, no matter what clever arguments you come up with, because I AM NOT LISTENING!

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I prefer his early stuff!

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Handlestash:

---

I prefer his early stuff!

---

that has the more "carpenter" vibe they used to go on about.

It's more 'stable' than his come back.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Handlestash:

---

It's more 'stable' than his come back.

---

yes.... he can be a bit wooden....

Quote Rabid47:

---

ps. Ian's a fine name. Wright? ....................(not a Gooner, actually WHUFC)

---

Ian is not my first name, its my second. Its not uncommon in Scotland to put the name you are called by before your surname.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.

Edited by Ian Stewart (14/05/08 02:35 PM)

Jesus Christ, Buddha, and who else is listening... narcoman, calm down and have a cuppa. You see, where we differ is that I'm not even remotely as judgemental as you are. Who am I to run around and compare myself to anybody - whether famous artist, or busker? It wouldn't even occur to me, except perhaps when I marvel at the amazing talent and skills that some artists have, and I might get a little jealous. But I'm definitely not in the habit of looking down on people. Life's too short for that. When I said I reckon wholesale sampling a la Massive Attack is "low", I meant it in the way as anyone would feel who had their work taken away (think patents, for example) and watch somebody else make a fortune on the back of it. It isn't far from stealing (notwithstanding paying royalties). So, if I were to call out a regular thief, would you also say I'm 'elitist', or 'look down on someone'? I hope not, because I'm only calling it for what it is.

Obviously, there are shades of grey. If someone sticks a little sample with some sonic textures from a CD into his own compositions, I don't have such a big problem with that - I'd still ask, though, why didn't they try to recreate that texture with their own means? He/she would have learned something in the process, and be better off for it. Simply copying something teaches you nothing.

However, let's remember what this thread is all about: The OP told us he likes to sample Motown records, i.e. hit records from 40 years ago, and not some obscure sonic texture from an unknown artist. Then we talked about Stratus and Massive Attack, a perfect example for riding on the back of musical geniuses (not only Cobham, but Jan Hammer, Tommy Bolin and Lee Sklar). So, let's keep this in perspective.

I'm just amazed at what people will do to score a hit record - and the general public appears to be sufficiently dumbed down to not care either way.

This is an almost interesting thread (one that we have caned endlessly before) and I want to keep it going but it is getting to the 'waste of bandwidth' stage and my finger is twitching.

Guys/gals, just beg to differ, keep it impersonal and move on.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Rabid47:

---

I read the post, dude. So what is 'of a nature?' Either they had synergistic results or they did'nt. I think you'll find synergistic results occur naturally as a result of combining two or more audio tracks.


Does using a drum machine make you a drummer?

---

I think it would be fair to say that whatever was meant by 'synergistic results' would come in different types - different results with different qualities...

Some of those qualities are

a. synergistic

b. only attainable by using sampling to mimic a type of music that probably has those qualities because of the limitations of the technology used at the time. e.g. trying to get that chopped-up 'three feet high and rising' feel.


I am a drummer, and no, programming drums does not make you a drummer. But if you do it well, it makes you a good drum programmer. Personally, I can't programme drums for s**t, and love the sound of it done well. I respect people who can as musicians - I see no reason to expect them to be able to play a kit, and have never met one who claimed to be able to drum... unless they actually could.

Where did these programmed drum sounds come from. at the end of the day, sampling of one sort or another. There are people out there who will get an 808, sample the goddam drum sounds, and then programme them using something else more flexible.

There's just no place for the kind of generalisations that are going on here.

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote Richard Graham:

---

The truth is, if you can't invent an entire new genre every time you sit down to write, you are talentless pond-life.

And that is a fact, no matter what clever arguments you come up with, because I AM NOT LISTENING!

---

I sure hope you wrote that in jest..?

Tui,

I just can't believe that you discount all music that uses samples. There's SO much of it and a lot of it's great.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Tui:

---

Forget it, mate... It seems, arguing the virtues of original song-writing here is akin to arguing the virtues of celibacy in a brothel.

---

You know what this is, don't you Tui.......this is the Generation Gap in action! Lazy buggers....

--------------------
Rab

Quote Handlestash:

---

Tui,

I just can't believe that you discount all music that uses samples. There's SO much of it and a lot of it's great.

---

I use samples all the time - tons of them, believe me. But I pay for them, I don't cull them from CDs. Neither do I use cut-and-paste, ready made drum loops, bass- or melody-lines. Where would be the fun in doing that? Besides, I don't even have enough time to arrange and produce all the tunes that are flying around in my head, some of them for years.

Quote Tui:

---

Jesus Christ, Buddha, and who else is listening... narcoman, calm down and have a cuppa. You see, where we differ is that I'm not even remotely as judgemental as you are. Who am I to run around and compare myself to anybody - whether famous artist, or busker? It wouldn't even occur to me, except perhaps when I marvel at the amazing talent and skills that some artists have, and I might get a little jealous. But I'm definitely not in the habit of looking down on people. Life's too short for that. When I said I reckon wholesale sampling a la Massive Attack is "low", I meant it in the way as anyone would feel who had their work taken away (think patents, for example) and watch somebody else make a fortune on the back of it. It isn't far from stealing (notwithstanding paying royalties). So, if I were to call out a regular thief, would you also say I'm 'elitist', or 'look down on someone'? I hope not, because I'm only calling it for what it is.

Obviously, there are shades of grey. If someone sticks a little sample with some sonic textures from a CD into his own compositions, I don't have such a big problem with that - I'd still ask, though, why didn't they try to recreate that texture with their own means? He/she would have learned something in the process, and be better off for it. Simply copying something teaches you nothing.

However, let's remember what this thread is all about: The OP told us he likes to sample Motown records, i.e. hit records from 40 years ago, and not some obscure sonic texture from an unknown artist. Then we talked about Stratus and Massive Attack, a perfect example for riding on the back of musical geniuses (not only Cobham, but Jan Hammer, Tommy Bolin and Lee Sklar). So, let's keep this in perspective.

I'm just amazed at what people will do to score a hit record - and the general public appears to be sufficiently dumbed down to not care either way.

---

my dear love -

eh? Calm down? You're the one who gets irate - i'm just sitting here typing bro'! Not a snitch of animosity - i'm enjoying the debate! As for judgemental - now that's just bizarre - I'm the one asking you not to be judgemental - I reckon you ought to re-read your posts. My whole point is NOT about judging ! Methinks you're doing too many bananas.


....most Motown records ARE unknown - I've got stacks of Motown records that went nowhere - they put out a lot. Same is true of Stax.

Back on track - I know you keep going on about "playing a similar thing themselves from scratch" but it never achieves the same result, I've doen LOADS of these - and pastiches of famous tracks. They're never the same. Y'see - recording is as much about capturing the moment on the day as it is recording a piece. I've heard great versions and poor versions of the same tracks by various people/bands//orchestras etc. The performance itself "on the day" lends certain qualities to things. Sampling a record isn't about using the chords and harmonic sturcture of the piece alone - it's about the sound it has too - the actual exact way it is performed.

I'll give you an example - I worked on a record in 1997 that used a sample of Pink Floyd, from the Meddle album. Floyds (quite rightly ) wanted 50% onpublishing and an advance for the recording sample. The label asked if a re-record would be acceptable - Floyd said - "go ahead". We tried for 7 days to get the same sound, the EXACT sound - it HAD to be rifght, the EXACT same groove too. We got painfully close - when we put the two up next to each other they sounded very very very similar. But in the context of the track being built? We'd wasted £10k of time (we'd used Abbey Road studio 2 for three days - it's where the original was done) including tape cost. We ended up going for the sample..... the track wanted what the track wanted!

I am totally opposed to uncredited sampling. I won't work with people who won't clear samples (I have a part of my company geared up for such clearings) - so the idea of someone making money off your work without your permission doesnt come into it for me. You need writers permission to use a sample. All of my comments centre around cleared samples only.

I'm gonna get on with some work ....

Quote Rabid47:

---

Quote Tui:

---

Forget it, mate... It seems, arguing the virtues of original song-writing here is akin to arguing the virtues of celibacy in a brothel.

---

You know what this is, don't you Tui.......this is the Generation Gap in action! Lazy buggers....

---

apart from he's only a teeny bit older than me.....

Quote Rabid47:

---

I read the post, dude. So what is 'of a nature?' Either they had synergistic results or they did'nt. I think you'll find synergistic results occur naturally as a result of combining two or more audio tracks.

Does using a drum machine make you a drummer?

---

This is like me saying that no instrument has the nuance of sound that a harpsichord has and someone coming back and saying - were there no instruments with a nuance of sound before that?

There is an artistic effect, of say, a sample of speech, used in a musical context that is an effect particular to that speech in that work of music. Putting a recording that sounds different, sounds like it is of a different place and time to the accompanying music to me can have an effect not like anything else.

But that's not really my main point.

Quote Rabid47:

---

Does using a drum machine make you a drummer?

---

Does Dreadzone sampling a 1940's actor make them an actor in the 1940's? No, and neither are they trying to be. Does it sound bloody great in the context they put it and contribute to a new work of a different nature from which it came? Yes it does.
And who goes around claiming they are a drummer because they use a drum machine?

Quote Rabid47:

---

You know what this is, don't you Tui.......this is the Generation Gap in action! Lazy buggers....

---

Well yeah, in a way. Although, we learned that quite a few of our fellow old farts (who should know better ) also think that sampling finished recordings is legit. This tells me two things:

1. Technology corrupts - if it's there, people will use it.
2. We live at a bad time for creativity and originality. The old guard has run out of steam, and the young one's haven't got much to say to begin with. George Duke once noted that there are no more leaders around - he said (I paraphrase) "I don't see too many Miles Davises today".

Quote narcoman:

---

Methinks you're doing too many bananas.

---

Not bananas. Watermelon/pineapple smoothies. Yum!

Quote Tui:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

Methinks you're doing too many bananas.

---

Not bananas. Watermelon/pineapple smoothies. Yum!

---

GOOD COMBO !!!

Quote narcoman:

---

GOOD COMBO !!!

---

does that count as consensus? can we close the topic now?!

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote narcoman:

---

I know you keep going on about "playing a similar thing themselves from scratch" but it never achieves the same result, I've doen LOADS of these - and pastiches of famous tracks. They're never the same. Y'see - recording is as much about capturing the moment on the day as it is recording a piece. I've heard great versions and poor versions of the same tracks by various people/bands//orchestras etc. The performance itself "on the day" lends certain qualities to things. Sampling a record isn't about using the chords and harmonic sturcture of the piece alone - it's about the sound it has too - the actual exact way it is performed.

---

For exactly those reasons am I sceptical of wholesale sampling of recording sessions. As Rabid47 described it: You steal someone's talent, their recording studio including engineer and producer, and release a bastardised version of the tune under your own name. You also steal the unique atmosphere of the recording session, and everything else that made it great. You waste no time with writing a tune, hiring a studio, and creating a special atmosphere, but take the easiest, least creative route possible. Neither do you re-record the tune, in order to give it a different slant and add something new and fresh to the world of music.

If we all were to think and act this way, music would stagnate and eventually die out completely. Can't you see that?

Quote molecular:

---

There's just no place for the kind of generalisations that are going on here.

---

But surely, sampling is the King of generalisation? People have given various reasons for using samples but as far as I can see, it's a matter of convenience: it's far easier to layer sounds together using a sampler, to come up with a specific sound, than it is to recreate the same sound using traditional instrumentation and recording techniques. It's probably more cost-effective too. I'm not against sampling at all, I've got a Disposable Heroes of HipHoprisy album, what I am against is the 'slap a drum-loop on and warble over the top of it' brigade who seem to consistently make vast amounts of money for no amount of original work while the major record companies decide who the next big thing will be. There's plagarism and there's sampling and while using a sample in homage to an artist seems acceptable to me, I find it difficult to condone wholesale theft of another artist's material in order to pass it off as an original composition simply cos' it had been time-stretched etc. This is always going to be a hot topic, for sure, so let's just agree to disagree. No hard feelings.


(Quote Richard Graham).....Pond life?.....That's just nasty, mate. Let's keep it civil, eh?


If the forums of ancient Rome were half as vicious as this one, I'm suprised the Empire even got started.

--------------------
Rab

Edited by Rabid47 (14/05/08 04:54 PM)

Quote onesecondglance:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

GOOD COMBO !!!

---

does that count as consensus? can we close the topic now?!

---

You can always close it yourself!

--------------------
Rab

Quote Tui:

---

If we all were to think and act this way, music would stagnate and eventually die out completely. Can't you see that?

---

Aah, I never said I didn't understand your point....I just think that music any music is judged on what it sounds like - not how hard it was to make or write. If it's got a Matt Bianco (ho ho ho) sample in it and it sounds good, then it is good! It doesnt bother me one bit whether its played or sampled. My personal preference is for orchestral recordings or (the polar opposite since it revolves around being out of tune and scrappy) garage rock. I don't love hip hop or RnB - but I can totally spot a good tune from a bad one - whether there is sampling or not. Milkshake - from Kelis - is a great track. Lots of sampled beats in there. Beyonces "Crazy in Love" uses a sample from the Chi-lites "Are you my woman" - and it's a MUCH better track!

There will be no stagnation - by the way - the next generation always hates what the one before liked..... that's why most of the kids these days can't stand electronic music.... but their kids will love it.....

Quote Neil C:

---

Does Dreadzone sampling a 1940's actor make them an actor in the 1940's? No, and neither are they trying to be.?

---

No, he's not an actor but he did'nt mind using an actors performance on his track.

Quote Neil C:

---

Does it sound bloody great in the context they put it and contribute to a new work of a different nature from which it came? Yes it does.

---

I love evocative music and the use of a well-placed one-shot can make a track but one-shots are'nt the issue....

Quote Neil C:

---

And who goes around claiming they are a drummer because they use a drum machine?

---

Phil Collins.

(I'm trying to bait him into a new Brand X album!)

Sorry Neil, could'nt help responding to this. It's been a pleasure debating with you and please forgive me if I've repeated myself but I guess that's just the nature of sampling forums!

--------------------
Rab

Quote Narcoman:....yes.... he can be a bit wooden....


Does he still bite his nails?

Quote Narcoman:.....I am willing to bet that you CAN"T (even if you wanted to, which I'm sure you don't !!)) put together an RnB or hip hop sample based track that fans of that genre would accept. It's out of your ability's jurisdiction!

And I'm more than willing to take that bet. What stakes did you have in mind?

--------------------
Rab

Quote Rabid47:

---

Quote Narcoman:....yes.... he can be a bit wooden....


Does he still bite his nails?

---

ouch! Best not print that in a Danish newspaper.....

Quote:

---

but I can totally spot a good tune from a bad one

---

Umm I'm not so sure about that...

Quote:

---

Milkshake - from Kelis - is a great track

---

You can't be serious...Are you talking strictly on instrumental merits here or the whole track?? That is possibly one of the worst songs I have ever heard and only contributes to the pile of garbage out there. The only thing worse is her follow up single with Too Short whatever that was called.

Narcoman I used to have faith in your posts and what you said, now I am starting to question everything...haha JK Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however that is not one I would be openly admitting to if I were you...lol

I was taught how to use a sampler in school:

"I will not make off-topic remarks in class again.
I will not make off-topic remarks in class again.
I will not make off-topic remarks in class again.
I will not make off-topic remarks in class again.
I will not make off-topic remarks in class again.
I will not make off-topic remarks in class again.
I will not make off-topic remarks in class again. ..."

Etc.

Edited by Muied Lumens (14/05/08 09:04 PM)

Sampling is OK (i.e. it has some artistic merit) provided only that it is not also theft. By which I mean that the original artist not only gets paid but, ideally, also gets to consent to the use of his prior art.

Where I struggle is with those who claim the original artist has no such rights (or should not have such rights in an ideal world). That's just taking the piss.

As is, in my view, sampling say a kick drum hit because you're too lazy to get a decent sound yourself. And that (IMO) is what a hell of a lot of this so-called debate is really about: a bunch of lazy gits legitimising to themselves the right to continue to be lazy, uninspired, uninventive, pathetic apologies for musicians on the grounds that a handful or really talented people once did something creative with sampling, and thereafter anything goes.

There's nothing new in that. A million people in the 1960s wrote three-chord protest songs on acoustic guitars. Somehow they never got the respect (or sales volumes) of Dylan or Baez etc. Now there's a surprise.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote narcoman:

---

....Beyonces "Crazy in Love" uses a sample from the Chi-lites "Are you my woman" - and it's a MUCH better track!

---

Yeah, but they compress the P%ss out of it!

--------------------
Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it