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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638513 - 18/07/08 01:25 PM
Quote snipsnip:

its just a state of fact. We dont need to turn this into another dull thread on the virtues of mp3's (or lack of), but I do stand by the point that a lot of people wont 'care' about music being compressed too much.

Im 24 and Im talking about people my age.

the generation below will presumably care even less as they have even less to compare it to?




Dude, I'm only 27, although like yourself, I guess, it's not the first time my opinions have been mistaken for being of the grandad camp...

I didn't mean to dismiss your post, I just really fear that you are probably right.

However, in the few years I've been a member of this forum, this is the bazillionth time this thread has happened...

Perhaps it would be better if we had a thread discussing what constructive things people can do so that production doesn't go down this hole, instead of endless threads arguing over who is to blame?

e.g.

Last time this discussion happened somebody linked to THIS

which I immediately submitted my own band's album to...

re: youtube,

time was not so long ago when streaming any music online was for the super rich - now I can do it through my phone on a boat in the Minch if I want. Why? cheap as chips bandwidth.

So maybe look back over how mp3 downloads pushed their way in... surely it won't be more than 5 years before you can do the same with 16 bit / 44.1 khz ?

Obviously, its not going to happen if nobody tries to make it happen, but a combination of persuading people why it would be worth it, and then making sure its there for people when they do want it ... well, it'll happen.

So, stop crying, I say. Just do it. (no Nike swoosh smiley, so y'all can imagine one..)

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Handlestash



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Squiresy91]
      #638514 - 18/07/08 01:25 PM
Quote Squiresy91:

It's like a snowball effect, if you want a chart topping hit in the current climate it has to sound as loud as the track it replaces. I got handed a demo the other day and it read (hand written!) on the sleeve please turn up and listen to this demo loud, it sounds better!


I dunno what point im trying to make here just thought i'd share!




I suspect that they were trying to suggest that you 'rock out' to it rather than suggesting it actually sounds better loud. Bad choice of words I would say.
Regardless of the mastering rock music should be played loud. Isn't that the law or something?

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Edited by Handlestash (18/07/08 01:26 PM)


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638516 - 18/07/08 01:28 PM
although i'll hasten to add I agree with zukan.

the difference is im talking about the consumer. of course those of us who are passionate about music will always strive for quality, and rightly so IMO. But from my real world experience this doesnt translate down to your avaerage listener... at this juncture in time.


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Handlestash]
      #638518 - 18/07/08 01:35 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Isn't that the law or something?




It is the law, yes.

I'd always thought that brickwalling rock music was so that you could hear everything without having to turn it up loud, hence it being the production choice of your american 'rock dad' nickelback fan.

I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.

I hasten to refer you to my previous, more important, post.

H.

--------------------
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http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638556 - 18/07/08 02:33 PM
I don't quite get how this has much to do with the "philosophy of recording", or something. Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638559 - 18/07/08 02:38 PM
times, they are a changing...


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Handlestash



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: molecular]
      #638565 - 18/07/08 02:53 PM
Quote molecular:



I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.






This is the funniest thing I've ever read on the forum! Spot on dude, spot on! What an image! A dinner party load of 40ish beige nigels discussing how 'rockin' the new Nickelback record is and putting it on during desert but just loud enough so it won't wake the spawn.

--------------------
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PWGLE



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638569 - 18/07/08 02:59 PM
Is it really a war? really...?

Production varies for different music. Some music suits heavy compression, Waves L1 is a bread and butter tool for me at the moment. I sometimes use it on mix stems, and also the master bus as well. Because it suits the music I'm writing/producing at the moment.

This doesn't make me anti dynamics.

Often in this debate people seem to point a finger of blame at the end consumer, with their awful mp3's, computers, and other silicon based wizardry.

If anything a growing majority of consumers are better educated, and have a greater understanding of technology these days. I high quality VBR mp3 is clearly significantly better than your old walkman, and you regularly see people walking down the street listening to music on decent headphones such as HD25's.

The fact the music services such as iTunes now offer high quality downloads is a reflection of this.

I don't think people mind turning things up, nor do they mind dynamics.

I've got plenty of modern, well produced albums which have dynamics. No they probably aren't 'mainstream', I dread to think what a Coldplay album sounds like . With the internet, the amount of music available to us as consumers has hugely increased, its a huge ocean out there - most of it is pretty rubbish, but there's good stuff going on as well.

-

What does annoy me though, is 'remastered' recordings of 'classic' albums.

L

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638607 - 18/07/08 04:14 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers.




Decrepid? Mike Oldfield worshipper? lol. Tool... Don't log in if that is all you read... or grow up and accept that opinions are valid.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to...




I'm not a grandad and you don't know what type of music I listen to so stop making a fool of yourself by reacting as if you know me. I am heavily into the club scene, past and present, love RnB, etc, etc... blah de blah, but I simply do not like the fact that this loudness war is happening when it clearly isn't necessary. It's not down to a specific style of music, it's happening all over and getting out of hand.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it




I do make music how "I" want to, when I'm not producing it for other people. I am entitled to a moan or express an opinion but I certainly don't deserve a predujiced and arrogant fool blurting crap about me when he clearly knows sod all about who I am and what I do... and I'm not alone blaming Demo about this loudness wars, if you read the article... he admits he had something to do with it and also admits it becomes fatiguing to the ear, which clearly is unhealthy.

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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The Korff
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: PWGLE]
      #638611 - 18/07/08 04:21 PM
Quote PWGLE:


What does annoy me though, is 'remastered' recordings of 'classic' albums.






That annoys me also — but maybe, in ten years or so, they'll start releasing 'Digitally Remastered! Extended Dynamic Range!' versions of some of the perfectly good albums that have been completely ruined by unsympathetic mastering in the last few years?

Good grief... that might mean that a remastered version of, say, Californication might sound better than the original!



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Jadoube
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Handlestash]
      #638616 - 18/07/08 04:29 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote molecular:



I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.






This is the funniest thing I've ever read on the forum! Spot on dude, spot on! What an image! A dinner party load of 40ish beige nigels discussing how 'rockin' the new Nickelback record is and putting it on during desert but just loud enough so it won't wake the spawn.




LOL!! That is pretty good! Nickleback... why god why? Spot on! O how I loath that kind of crap


I found the link to http://www.turnmeup.org/ very interesting. Thanks for that... I'd forgotten about that site. I enjoyed all the technical links... I like to know what I am doing. Bob Katz rulz... again!

--------------------
David


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PWGLE



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Jadoube]
      #638620 - 18/07/08 04:55 PM
I applied for some material to be certified by them, as to be honest what is 'loud' i was curious. Anyways they never got back to me.

L

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Gelled_Fringe



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638623 - 18/07/08 05:03 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638630 - 18/07/08 05:22 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?




I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Gelled_Fringe



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638643 - 18/07/08 06:06 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?




I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P




I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638650 - 18/07/08 06:18 PM
What actually is the matter with people, can everybody please take a chill pill, or something?

Thai and Cambodian soldiers were pointing guns at each other today, over a dispute concerning a Buddhist temple... Oh man.


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638666 - 18/07/08 07:02 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?




I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P




I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...




Bullying? LOL. You're the one with a chip on your shoulder. Grow up, boy

Anyhow, let's get back on topic, keep it on topic and prefereably friendly.

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #638667 - 18/07/08 07:03 PM
Quote Tui:

What actually is the matter with people, can everybody please take a chill pill, or something?




Yeah, I know it's flipping annoying. Some people just don't know how to behave and act maturely.

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Jim Y
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638680 - 18/07/08 07:40 PM
I stopped reading these "Recording of" articles years ago. My BS detector alarm sounds off to often. Waste of print all of them. Do some readers take it all in? Seriously?

I'm also having to take therapy for having seen Devo in those stupid hats all over again - thanks for nothing SoS.

Do an article on the Furby-gurdy, that's fun. Overly self-important producers polishing their little rockets in print is not.

Jim


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638683 - 18/07/08 08:04 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...




I think you're behaving like a spoilt child. You start randomly insulting people in a scattergun manner for no good reason and then feign surprise when they dare to defend themselves?

You don't have to stay here if you don't like it.

But it would probably be best if everyone calmed down (thank you, Tui).

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (18/07/08 08:06 PM)


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638689 - 18/07/08 08:15 PM
I openly apologise to everyone, including Mike Oldfield.


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adam miller



Joined: 02/08/06
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Zukan]
      #638696 - 18/07/08 08:38 PM
Quote Zukan:


The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.




Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully. Compression and distortion of various types and implementations is instrumental to the sound of many musical genres- I just can't understand the sudden discontinuity that makes aggressive limiting unacceptable and other forms of distortion kosher.

Quote Zukan:


Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.




All those years that vinyl mastering engineers were trying to figure out the best way of cutting their records hotter than anyone else?

Quote Zukan:


If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.




With any luck, youngsters today can use their ears and decide for themselves! I doubt there's ever been such a concentration of literature, audio magazine and mainstream newspaper articles, online forum discussion, music technology lectures and 'pro-dynamics' groups as there is now to get the 'LOUDNESS IS BAD!!!' message across to potential young producers. I feel like the pro-dynamics lobby shout so loudly about the subject that it actually becomes impossible to have a reasoned, reasonable debate about the place of hard compression and limiting within popular music.

Quote Tui:

Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.




I think you should read some Adorno (the name should be unpleasantly familiar to anyone who's had to study him as part of a music degree!)- These exact sentiments, expressed 70+ years ago.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638699 - 18/07/08 08:43 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

I openly apologise to everyone, including Mike Oldfield.




Including Mike Oldfield may be going too far!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Chaconne



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638710 - 18/07/08 09:46 PM
Personally I love some of the modern club stuff that uses compression and loudness to the max. I think the stuff from Justice and Sebastien, and modern electro house records sound fantastic...put against some of the best records of the eighties and nineties they acheive levels of dancefloor devastation I would have thought where immpossible. I am not really a hip hop or pop fan, but I love the energy they have and sometimes I cant believe the fantasic full frequency range smack that comes out of my speakers...

I think unfortunately it is just a case of a 'young' trend being over-aped and abused.

However this happens all the time, perhaps anybody else here can remember when everyone went 'electric', then gawd 'elp us started using drum machines and synths. Remember the outrage the DX7 caused?

Anybody on here harking back to the good old days has simply forgotten the carnage 'new waves' in popular music create. I remember Keith Tippet in an interview recalling how he was forced to eat home grown potatoes after those fab four reduced music to four chords on a guitar.

--------------------



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Tímo



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Chaconne]
      #638732 - 19/07/08 12:16 AM
Poor thing is, it's pointless discussing it, as there's nothing you do to change the situation, unless they bring strict laws into force regulating RMS levels on a commercial CD master, which is about as likely as me getting a number 1 in the charts....

Waste of breath.

At least things can't get any LOUDER.

I think the digital revolution partly encouraged the loudness wars with its old flaws. A large proportion of people still wrongly aim to hit near 0dBFS at every stage (tracking, mixing, mastering).

--------------------
http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638748 - 19/07/08 05:22 AM
Quote adam miller:


Quote Tui:

Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.




I think you should read some Adorno (the name should be unpleasantly familiar to anyone who's had to study him as part of a music degree!)- These exact sentiments, expressed 70+ years ago.




I had to study Adorno at school, all I remember is that I was bored to tears (incidentally, my music degree involved, you know, learning how to play several instruments). However, if you think that Adorno was talking about dynamic and data reduction on digital media 70 years ago, I have to say, whatever it is you are smoking, it's working.


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Chaconne]
      #638749 - 19/07/08 05:29 AM
Quote Chaconne:

Remember the outrage the DX7 caused?





No, because there wasn't any. The DX7 was the first affordable and widely popular digital synth, and everybody loved it. For keyboard players, it was an absolute must-have item like no other synth before or since.


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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638753 - 19/07/08 06:10 AM
I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public. As with so many products, if they don't want something, then it won't be made.

Maybe this guy can take credit for setting the trend but he can hardly be held responsible for sustaining it.

ken

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I'm All Ears.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: ken long]
      #638760 - 19/07/08 07:06 AM
Quote Ken Long:

I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public.




Are you suggesting people pay for this stuff?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #638779 - 19/07/08 07:43 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote Ken Long:

I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public.




Are you suggesting people pay for this stuff?




How naive of me indeed

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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Urthlupe
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638784 - 19/07/08 08:31 AM
As folks have pointed out much of the 'square-wave sound' is genre specific. What goes around comes around....

The youngsters in this house seem perfectly capable of identifying a squashed sound and appreciating it in context for what it is while fully enjoying other types of audio presentation.

Ride the wave fellas, be creative where you can, things will change.... quite possibly you could be the one to lead the way.....

Loopy


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638815 - 19/07/08 10:32 AM
Quote snipsnip:

Quote onesecondglance:


if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.






I dont like over compressed records, but your argument isnt true. The voice complaining about it is tiny. Most people dont care.




my point exactly. the voices of the complainers are loudest because no one else understands the issue or cares enough to rebuff it (with the exception of this thread - this is pretty much the first time i've seen people defending hyper-limited music...)

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9298
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638818 - 19/07/08 10:37 AM
Quote adam miller:

Quote Zukan:


The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.




Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully. Compression and distortion of various types and implementations is instrumental to the sound of many musical genres- I just can't understand the sudden discontinuity that makes aggressive limiting unacceptable and other forms of distortion kosher.






Square wave compression is a destructive process that cannot be compared in the slightest to applying distortion to a sound.
If you understood the dynamics and process then you would not make this remark.
We are not talking about compression in the analogue domain whereby the headroom can be compromised with harmonic distortion.
We are talking about the limits being exceeded in the digital domain, and there is nothing musical about exceeding this ceiling.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9298
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638819 - 19/07/08 10:40 AM
Quote Zukan:


Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.




All those years that vinyl mastering engineers were trying to figure out the best way of cutting their records hotter than anyone else?





But without compromising the headroom.

I think you are misunderstanding the differences between compression in an analogue domain and the finite restrictions of the digital domain.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting your mix as loud as possible.
But compromising the sonic integrity of the mix and narrow banding it till there is no dynamic movement is not technically or aurally sound.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9298
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638822 - 19/07/08 10:47 AM
Quote adam miller:



Quote Zukan:


If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.




With any luck, youngsters today can use their ears and decide for themselves! I doubt there's ever been such a concentration of literature, audio magazine and mainstream newspaper articles, online forum discussion, music technology lectures and 'pro-dynamics' groups as there is now to get the 'LOUDNESS IS BAD!!!' message across to potential young producers. I feel like the pro-dynamics lobby shout so loudly about the subject that it actually becomes impossible to have a reasoned, reasonable debate about the place of hard compression and limiting within popular music.





And exactly what is the place for exceeding the digital ceiling compression in any genre when clearly every single piece of data points to it being destructive, compromising all dynamics, narrow banding and tiring the listener?

This is a music tech forum. We try to educate here not misinform.
We try to give as much technical information as possible in the right context and help people who are trying to learn.

I would never in any of my classes teach my students that digital clipping, over compression within the digital domain and narrow banding dynamics is a good thing irrespective of whether it has genre merit.

You can deliver a loud and compressed mix without compromising any of the above and actually offer more to the listener than the square wave compressed version.

You also fail to realise that almost every argument for square wave digital compression comes from misinformed listeners or beginners to this industry.
Not from industry professionals.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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molecular
member


Joined: 13/12/03
Posts: 699
Loc: north a bit, west a bit
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Zukan]
      #638827 - 19/07/08 11:10 AM
There are those who think that creationism should be taught in schools, so that children are presented with a 'balanced debate'...

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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adam miller



Joined: 02/08/06
Posts: 84
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Zukan]
      #638835 - 19/07/08 11:27 AM
Quote Zukan:


Square wave compression is a destructive process that cannot be compared in the slightest to applying distortion to a sound.




For the sake of clarity, when you say 'square wave compression' I'm taking it to mean brickwall limiting and digital clipping- is this correct? These processes alter the dynamic envelope of the sound, distort the waveform and add additional harmonics. You might hate the sound it makes and the destructiveness of the process, but it is directly comparable to other forms of distortion!

Quote Zukan:


We are not talking about compression in the analogue domain whereby the headroom can be compromised with harmonic distortion.
We are talking about the limits being exceeded in the digital domain, and there is nothing musical about exceeding this ceiling.




That's entirely a matter of opinion, especially when the limits are being exceeded by a highly experienced mastering engineer working in sympathy with a production that's been planned with loudness in mind from the very start.


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adam miller



Joined: 02/08/06
Posts: 84
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638844 - 19/07/08 12:13 PM
Quote Zukan:


And exactly what is the place for exceeding the digital ceiling compression in any genre when clearly every single piece of data points to it being destructive, compromising all dynamics, narrow banding and tiring the listener?




Where is this data? Why is Radio 1 smashed to within an inch of its life, Radio 2 less so and 3+4 barely at all? Have you considered that different sounds appeal to different demographics and suit different musical contexts? My argument is that hard limiting and clipping can contribute towards the overall aesthetic of a record- it's not necessarily just a process that's slapped on at the end out of 'fashion' (although there are of course plenty of records where it is).

Quote Zukan:


You also fail to realise that almost every argument for square wave digital compression comes from misinformed listeners or beginners to this industry.
Not from industry professionals.




How about the legions of industry professionals making and releasing records covered with limiting and digital clipping? If they genuinely found it as offensive as you clearly do, why do many of the biggest industry players continue to put out loud, dynamically flattened records? I refuse to believe it's all down to mindless trend following and insecurity. If Rick Rubin decided he never wanted to release another clipped, limited record he could easily do so without having to answer to anyone else.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638845 - 19/07/08 12:18 PM
Quote adam miller:


Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully.



Not an unreasonable point, though I've yet to encounter a context where massively distorting an entire mix is successful as anything but a novelty/production trick for a single track on an otherwise well presented album. For that matter, yes, doing it well is difficult and if done appropriately and in a balanced context it does have its merits but therein lies the rub. The vast majority of brick wall limiting and extreme compression is apparently done by people lacking even the basic skills required to make the recording in the first place let alone the more advanced understanding needed to break with the conventions of 'good' sound in a way that sounds like anything other than crap.



The thing I find most amusing in that article (apart from the guy's incredible ..er...self confidence ) is that anyone would actually want to claim personal responsibility for starting one of the most musically destructive and technically flawed trends ever to hit popular music recording. It may say a lot about him as a producer but perhaps not what he'd like to think it says.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638851 - 19/07/08 12:48 PM
Quote adam miller:

records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?





By extension of that argument, could it be said that the now unfashionable and politically incorrect quick slap round the back of the head and a 'grow up halfwit' is more appropriate to the short attention span of most people these days, than a long, reasoned discussion about the pros and cons of different approaches?

(Not picking on you personally Adam, it applies on all sides of an argument, you just happened to make the point that got me thinking. )


There's so much more to the whole discussion of people's shortening attention span, 'dumbing down', devaluing of culture (and many other things) and disposability of just about every aspect of modern life and how they all affect music, art, culture, consumerism, manufacturing, design, etc., etc., than can ever be covered in one discussion, let alone in a single forum thread. The reasons for so many people perceiving music as free/disposable/valueless are far more wide ranging and complex than just simple stand alone things like generational differences, cost of manufacture/distribution, talent (or lack of), etc.. The whole loudness game and increasing disposability of music are just parts of the much wider changes in society/lifestyles. I don't like music becoming throwaway and the associated devaluing of the skills, talents and years of accumulated experience but I don't see any one person or group changing it no matter how loud they shout. Only time will tell which trends are with us to stay and whether listening to bursts of distortion and square waves will be an embarrassing blip in musical history or, depressingly, the shape of things to come.


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