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Peter Conz Connelly
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Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon
      #637228 - 15/07/08 11:23 AM
My respect level has hit rock bottom with this geezer!!! Here are some quotes from a recent SOS interview with Demacio 'Demo' Castellon, the git!!!

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

"Of course it can cut the dynamics on some records, and you definitely get fatigue listening to records that loud for a long time. But it's what people want to hear."



Cheers,
Peter

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Freuman



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #637323 - 15/07/08 02:29 PM
What an arse!

When i first read this the word I used was much stronger...

but even if he started it...why did everybody follow??!!

...still...

--------------------
11011110110010101111 - 110000001111111111101110 - 101110101101
Hexadecimal binary coding anyone?


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The Korff
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Freuman]
      #637324 - 15/07/08 02:32 PM
Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...


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Parker Fly



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: The Korff]
      #637326 - 15/07/08 02:33 PM
Quote Korff:

Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...




As though splicing tape in the 60's wasn't?


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The Korff
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #637333 - 15/07/08 02:43 PM
I'm not saying it wasn't!

Just read the box-out and you'll see what I object to.


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Parker Fly



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: The Korff]
      #637335 - 15/07/08 02:45 PM
I'm simply making the point that what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.


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chris...
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #637376 - 15/07/08 04:41 PM
Quote Parker Fly:

what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.




Yep for autotune and splicing. Good stuff has been done with both.

But I wouldn't put loudness-maximizing nonsense in the same category.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #637383 - 15/07/08 05:08 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"




I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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desmond



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #637384 - 15/07/08 05:09 PM
And I thought it was Charles Dye...


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #637444 - 15/07/08 08:48 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"




I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!




Yep, it was at this point I couldn't be ar$ed to read any more! It really wound me up!!!

Although I like the track, I don't think the mix / production to "4 minutes" is that good. I'm confident I could achieve better results in my less spectacular and humble studio.

Cheers,
Peter

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Mixedup
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #637572 - 16/07/08 08:56 AM
Maybe we all need to shout a bit louder about the loudness wars to get our point heard...


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. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Mixedup]
      #637670 - 16/07/08 12:28 PM
lol

or should that be "chuckles quietly" , for more dynamic range?


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Jadoube
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #638162 - 17/07/08 03:57 PM
I just read the article. I don't agree with the sound, but these folks are clearly mixing for a certain market niche. As he correctly points out, not all music belongs in this style of bit shredding loudness. Why is there even a war anymore? It's about as loud as it can get isn't it? Just worry about making something good. Has anything suffered because it is NOT mixed to maximum warp? A good song NOT become a hit because it's too quiet? I am curious.
People need to get some perspective I think... probably starting with the "record company" folks who allegedly fuel the "war" part of the equation.

--------------------
David


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Len
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638170 - 17/07/08 04:25 PM
Sorry - but while I hate the loudness wars, you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?

But yes, if you ultra-compressed John Martyn's Solid Air or any Pink Floyd record I would be really bleedin' annoyed!

--------------------
www.youtube.com/leonardngmusic


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638193 - 17/07/08 05:41 PM
I'm all for compressing hip-hop to the max. That way, when you turn it down to an inaudible level, it stays turned down and doesn't jump up and bite you.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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bonde



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638212 - 17/07/08 06:17 PM
my first post on the forum

i also noticed that the guy described timbaland as the mozart of our times or something.

hes been very successful but i can think of other albums etc produced in recent years that to me, are far more unique and absorbing and still commercially popular.

im not rally a hip hop/r n b fan but to me - his stuff all sounds kinda the same to alot of other urban tracks.

--------------------
www.bondedeblog.blogspot.com
on mp3unsigned.com


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Gelled_Fringe



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638238 - 17/07/08 07:54 PM
every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638262 - 17/07/08 08:58 PM
That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Bradley Steenkamp
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638266 - 17/07/08 09:10 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it




Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind. Why should we all conform to the methods used by people such as timaland/kanye ect? The grandad comment is a little odd! I'm a 27 year old male with a passion for music of all types ranging from classical to metal, hard rock, girly pop and even the odd bit of timbaland!!!

Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!

I can't help wondering if all that expensive outboard gear is really needed. These highly paid mix guys claim it is but I have a sneaky feeling most people would struggle to tell the difference between the song mixed using high end outboard or a liquid mix/UAD in the box system! Especially when its all converted down to AAC and played back via the good old ipod!

--------------------
www.bradleysteenkamp.com


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Gelled_Fringe



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #638268 - 17/07/08 09:11 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.




it was indeed indisputably thoughtful, and was in no way offensive - grizzled knopfler wannabes have dealt with much worse in their time i'm sure


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Jadoube
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638274 - 17/07/08 09:37 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers ... just go and make music the way YOU want it




LMAO -- hah hah mike oldfield. Nasti!

I agree with your final conclusion... making music is what its about... or recordings of music in this context; "Sound on Sound"

But... it is a discussion... no harm in that. You have to know if you read a thread about "Loudness Wars", "Mac Vs PC", "Reaper Vs the world", "Analog Vs Digital", "ITB Vs a mixing desk" etc etc... it's going to be a mud fest to a certain degree. Why else would you look?

But I think Gelled_Fringe has a valid point; it's modern music and it's loud. You have to p**s off the previous generation somehow or you are not trying hard enough... Elvis and the Beatles etc were annoying travesties, an affront to real music.. blah blah blah.

The Mozart bit was a bit much... not a real comparison there if ya ask me!

--------------------
David


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adam miller



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Bradley Steenkamp]
      #638328 - 18/07/08 02:26 AM
Quote Bradley:


Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind.




That's the bit I find most at odds with the general opinion on these forums- where's the open mind with regards to loudness? Even the thread title reads like a Loudness War Neighbourhood Watch manifesto. 'Pointing the Finger at...' Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?

Edited by adam miller (18/07/08 02:27 AM)


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moo the magic cow



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: The Korff]
      #638329 - 18/07/08 02:56 AM
Quote Korff:

Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...




Is EQ? Reverb? There's nothing honest about records and there rarely has been.

Quote:

you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?




I am really wondering how you got from A to B here. Why should electronic music lack dynamics?

--------------------
gentle robot - chapel hill rock band


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A Non O Miss



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638332 - 18/07/08 03:11 AM
The more I think about it, the more the loudness war doesn't bother me. He is right, a lot of music and the simple age we are in kind of requires maxed masters. Accept it already.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638345 - 18/07/08 06:46 AM
Quote adam miller:

Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?




The Who were/are loud. Led Zeppelin were/are loud. Black Sabbath were/are loud. Jimi Hendrix was loud. I've seen all these guys live.

Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.

You might as well start with a thousand years of musical history and say hey, let's just do it all without using the black notes on the keyboard, that would be clever.

Club music is "loud" because it's shoved through big speakers. It is not loud in any recognisable musical sense.

In that sense, it is of course patently absurd to call it "loudness wars".

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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adam miller



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #638431 - 18/07/08 10:20 AM
Quote Steve Hill:


Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.




Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

I dislike inappropriately smashed records too- but 'loudness' has a place.


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onesecondglance



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638440 - 18/07/08 10:42 AM
Quote adam miller:

Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?




if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.

personally, i can't think of any instances where full on loudness is appropriate for more than three or four minutes at a time. and i'm into metal!

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #638443 - 18/07/08 10:56 AM
Quote onesecondglance:


if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.






I dont like over compressed records, but your argument isnt true. The voice complaining about it is tiny. Most people dont care.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638445 - 18/07/08 10:59 AM
I'd say most people don't understand. They find some music physically tiring to listen to but don't understand why. That's not the same as not caring.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #638453 - 18/07/08 11:15 AM
I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638456 - 18/07/08 11:23 AM
Quote snipsnip:

I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.




This is the most depressing thing I've read in such a long time, I don't know where to begin...

Somebody please shoot their mouth off so they can lock the thread!!!

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638458 - 18/07/08 11:32 AM
its just a state of fact. We dont need to turn this into another dull thread on the virtues of mp3's (or lack of), but I do stand by the point that a lot of people wont 'care' about music being compressed too much.

Im 24 and Im talking about people my age.

the generation below will presumably care even less as they have even less to compare it to?


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wave1



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638464 - 18/07/08 11:45 AM
Personally I think it's A+R and record companies that want loud records so that they jump out at you when they're on the radio. I think consumers are mostly indifferent.


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tomafd



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #638468 - 18/07/08 11:54 AM
Quote Steve Hill:


The Who were/are loud. Led Zeppelin were/are loud. Black Sabbath were/are loud. Jimi Hendrix was loud. I've seen all these guys live.







Indeed they were- and when I introduced my late teenage nephew to Led Zep's music (he'd been listening to a lot of later rock music but never heard them) his first comment (after sitting there in shock for a few moments) was

" [ ****** ] hell- the loud bits are really loud, aren't they ? Why don't modern bands sound like this ? It's AMAZING !"

So not all the younger generation are after heavily compressed music- and a lot of them have never really heard anything else, poor little things. And that's a shame...

--------------------
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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #638471 - 18/07/08 12:03 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

I'm all for compressing hip-hop to the max. That way, when you turn it down to an inaudible level, it stays turned down and doesn't jump up and bite you.







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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638475 - 18/07/08 12:13 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad!




You'd be surprised, most here don't care what spotty teenagers spend their pocket money on. At any rate, listening to over-compressed music is probably the least of their problems, compared with sensory numbness, social indifference and political apathy.


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ZukanModerator
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638479 - 18/07/08 12:27 PM
Quote snipsnip:

I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.




Sadly, if this is the case then there is no need to have a technical side for the audio industry.

Run it all through a comp/limiter and sod the dynamics.

The technology side of our industry strives to record and deliver music in a manner that is not just technically accurate but is conducive to the listener and provides interest and longevity.

Anything that is creative and regarded as art has a solid and technical foundation as it's basis. It then transgresses from there into an a piece of 'art'. Without the technical aspect of this the final product would be both inaccurate and aesthetically displeasing.

All the grand artists were extremely proficient at the technical side of their craft and without things like form, perception etc the piece of art would not induce any emotion or thought and would bore the viewer, much like music that is narrow banded and offers no dynamic range.

The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.

What is the point of using good musicians who have excellent and emotive playing skills and capturing those emotions both accurately and dynamically to then have it mauled to death?

Even with people using hip hop or dance as a premise for this form of compression and negating the use of professional musicians need to come up with a new excuse.

Some of today's hip hop uses some excellent musicians and even where it's simply been plug n' play compositions we are still afforded singers with excellent voices and delivery.

Why destroy that with stupid thinking?

Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.

Square wave compression is not about loudness and has no place in our industry.

Even the arguments for mp3, limited bandwidth streaming etc are weak. A piece of music that has been produced well with emphasis on maintaining the rich tapestry of dynamics will translate equally well across any mediums in any format.
Even with the limitations that exist today the music will still shine through and keep the listener interested.

If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Squiresy91



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638480 - 18/07/08 12:29 PM
It's like a snowball effect, if you want a chart topping hit in the current climate it has to sound as loud as the track it replaces. I got handed a demo the other day and it read (hand written!) on the sleeve please turn up and listen to this demo loud, it sounds better!


I dunno what point im trying to make here just thought i'd share!


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Zukan]
      #638501 - 18/07/08 01:07 PM
Quote Zukan:

Quote snipsnip:

If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.




Well put.

Someone can play about with crayons and a colouring book, and never understand what it is to stand humble before say some Monet water lilies.

But it's their loss if they choose to define their horizons and aspirations in those terms.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638512 - 18/07/08 01:23 PM
Well if your suggesting all music thats technically well produced is equivilent to a masterpiece then i guess your analogy has merit.

otherwise it sounds a little bit like the hyperbole you'd find in the mail....


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638513 - 18/07/08 01:25 PM
Quote snipsnip:

its just a state of fact. We dont need to turn this into another dull thread on the virtues of mp3's (or lack of), but I do stand by the point that a lot of people wont 'care' about music being compressed too much.

Im 24 and Im talking about people my age.

the generation below will presumably care even less as they have even less to compare it to?




Dude, I'm only 27, although like yourself, I guess, it's not the first time my opinions have been mistaken for being of the grandad camp...

I didn't mean to dismiss your post, I just really fear that you are probably right.

However, in the few years I've been a member of this forum, this is the bazillionth time this thread has happened...

Perhaps it would be better if we had a thread discussing what constructive things people can do so that production doesn't go down this hole, instead of endless threads arguing over who is to blame?

e.g.

Last time this discussion happened somebody linked to THIS

which I immediately submitted my own band's album to...

re: youtube,

time was not so long ago when streaming any music online was for the super rich - now I can do it through my phone on a boat in the Minch if I want. Why? cheap as chips bandwidth.

So maybe look back over how mp3 downloads pushed their way in... surely it won't be more than 5 years before you can do the same with 16 bit / 44.1 khz ?

Obviously, its not going to happen if nobody tries to make it happen, but a combination of persuading people why it would be worth it, and then making sure its there for people when they do want it ... well, it'll happen.

So, stop crying, I say. Just do it. (no Nike swoosh smiley, so y'all can imagine one..)

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Squiresy91]
      #638514 - 18/07/08 01:25 PM
Quote Squiresy91:

It's like a snowball effect, if you want a chart topping hit in the current climate it has to sound as loud as the track it replaces. I got handed a demo the other day and it read (hand written!) on the sleeve please turn up and listen to this demo loud, it sounds better!


I dunno what point im trying to make here just thought i'd share!




I suspect that they were trying to suggest that you 'rock out' to it rather than suggesting it actually sounds better loud. Bad choice of words I would say.
Regardless of the mastering rock music should be played loud. Isn't that the law or something?

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Edited by Handlestash (18/07/08 01:26 PM)


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638516 - 18/07/08 01:28 PM
although i'll hasten to add I agree with zukan.

the difference is im talking about the consumer. of course those of us who are passionate about music will always strive for quality, and rightly so IMO. But from my real world experience this doesnt translate down to your avaerage listener... at this juncture in time.


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Handlestash]
      #638518 - 18/07/08 01:35 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Isn't that the law or something?




It is the law, yes.

I'd always thought that brickwalling rock music was so that you could hear everything without having to turn it up loud, hence it being the production choice of your american 'rock dad' nickelback fan.

I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.

I hasten to refer you to my previous, more important, post.

H.

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638556 - 18/07/08 02:33 PM
I don't quite get how this has much to do with the "philosophy of recording", or something. Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638559 - 18/07/08 02:38 PM
times, they are a changing...


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Handlestash



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: molecular]
      #638565 - 18/07/08 02:53 PM
Quote molecular:



I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.






This is the funniest thing I've ever read on the forum! Spot on dude, spot on! What an image! A dinner party load of 40ish beige nigels discussing how 'rockin' the new Nickelback record is and putting it on during desert but just loud enough so it won't wake the spawn.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638569 - 18/07/08 02:59 PM
Is it really a war? really...?

Production varies for different music. Some music suits heavy compression, Waves L1 is a bread and butter tool for me at the moment. I sometimes use it on mix stems, and also the master bus as well. Because it suits the music I'm writing/producing at the moment.

This doesn't make me anti dynamics.

Often in this debate people seem to point a finger of blame at the end consumer, with their awful mp3's, computers, and other silicon based wizardry.

If anything a growing majority of consumers are better educated, and have a greater understanding of technology these days. I high quality VBR mp3 is clearly significantly better than your old walkman, and you regularly see people walking down the street listening to music on decent headphones such as HD25's.

The fact the music services such as iTunes now offer high quality downloads is a reflection of this.

I don't think people mind turning things up, nor do they mind dynamics.

I've got plenty of modern, well produced albums which have dynamics. No they probably aren't 'mainstream', I dread to think what a Coldplay album sounds like . With the internet, the amount of music available to us as consumers has hugely increased, its a huge ocean out there - most of it is pretty rubbish, but there's good stuff going on as well.

-

What does annoy me though, is 'remastered' recordings of 'classic' albums.

L

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638607 - 18/07/08 04:14 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers.




Decrepid? Mike Oldfield worshipper? lol. Tool... Don't log in if that is all you read... or grow up and accept that opinions are valid.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to...




I'm not a grandad and you don't know what type of music I listen to so stop making a fool of yourself by reacting as if you know me. I am heavily into the club scene, past and present, love RnB, etc, etc... blah de blah, but I simply do not like the fact that this loudness war is happening when it clearly isn't necessary. It's not down to a specific style of music, it's happening all over and getting out of hand.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it




I do make music how "I" want to, when I'm not producing it for other people. I am entitled to a moan or express an opinion but I certainly don't deserve a predujiced and arrogant fool blurting crap about me when he clearly knows sod all about who I am and what I do... and I'm not alone blaming Demo about this loudness wars, if you read the article... he admits he had something to do with it and also admits it becomes fatiguing to the ear, which clearly is unhealthy.

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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The Korff
Loose Cannon (Reviews Editor)


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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: PWGLE]
      #638611 - 18/07/08 04:21 PM
Quote PWGLE:


What does annoy me though, is 'remastered' recordings of 'classic' albums.






That annoys me also — but maybe, in ten years or so, they'll start releasing 'Digitally Remastered! Extended Dynamic Range!' versions of some of the perfectly good albums that have been completely ruined by unsympathetic mastering in the last few years?

Good grief... that might mean that a remastered version of, say, Californication might sound better than the original!



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Jadoube
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Handlestash]
      #638616 - 18/07/08 04:29 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote molecular:



I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.






This is the funniest thing I've ever read on the forum! Spot on dude, spot on! What an image! A dinner party load of 40ish beige nigels discussing how 'rockin' the new Nickelback record is and putting it on during desert but just loud enough so it won't wake the spawn.




LOL!! That is pretty good! Nickleback... why god why? Spot on! O how I loath that kind of crap


I found the link to http://www.turnmeup.org/ very interesting. Thanks for that... I'd forgotten about that site. I enjoyed all the technical links... I like to know what I am doing. Bob Katz rulz... again!

--------------------
David


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Jadoube]
      #638620 - 18/07/08 04:55 PM
I applied for some material to be certified by them, as to be honest what is 'loud' i was curious. Anyways they never got back to me.

L

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638623 - 18/07/08 05:03 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638630 - 18/07/08 05:22 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?




I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638643 - 18/07/08 06:06 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?




I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P




I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638650 - 18/07/08 06:18 PM
What actually is the matter with people, can everybody please take a chill pill, or something?

Thai and Cambodian soldiers were pointing guns at each other today, over a dispute concerning a Buddhist temple... Oh man.


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638666 - 18/07/08 07:02 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P




is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?




I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P




I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...




Bullying? LOL. You're the one with a chip on your shoulder. Grow up, boy

Anyhow, let's get back on topic, keep it on topic and prefereably friendly.

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #638667 - 18/07/08 07:03 PM
Quote Tui:

What actually is the matter with people, can everybody please take a chill pill, or something?




Yeah, I know it's flipping annoying. Some people just don't know how to behave and act maturely.

P

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Jim Y
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Joined: 30/03/04
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638680 - 18/07/08 07:40 PM
I stopped reading these "Recording of" articles years ago. My BS detector alarm sounds off to often. Waste of print all of them. Do some readers take it all in? Seriously?

I'm also having to take therapy for having seen Devo in those stupid hats all over again - thanks for nothing SoS.

Do an article on the Furby-gurdy, that's fun. Overly self-important producers polishing their little rockets in print is not.

Jim


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638683 - 18/07/08 08:04 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...




I think you're behaving like a spoilt child. You start randomly insulting people in a scattergun manner for no good reason and then feign surprise when they dare to defend themselves?

You don't have to stay here if you don't like it.

But it would probably be best if everyone calmed down (thank you, Tui).

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (18/07/08 08:06 PM)


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638689 - 18/07/08 08:15 PM
I openly apologise to everyone, including Mike Oldfield.


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adam miller



Joined: 02/08/06
Posts: 84
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Zukan]
      #638696 - 18/07/08 08:38 PM
Quote Zukan:


The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.




Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully. Compression and distortion of various types and implementations is instrumental to the sound of many musical genres- I just can't understand the sudden discontinuity that makes aggressive limiting unacceptable and other forms of distortion kosher.

Quote Zukan:


Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.




All those years that vinyl mastering engineers were trying to figure out the best way of cutting their records hotter than anyone else?

Quote Zukan:


If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.




With any luck, youngsters today can use their ears and decide for themselves! I doubt there's ever been such a concentration of literature, audio magazine and mainstream newspaper articles, online forum discussion, music technology lectures and 'pro-dynamics' groups as there is now to get the 'LOUDNESS IS BAD!!!' message across to potential young producers. I feel like the pro-dynamics lobby shout so loudly about the subject that it actually becomes impossible to have a reasoned, reasonable debate about the place of hard compression and limiting within popular music.

Quote Tui:

Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.




I think you should read some Adorno (the name should be unpleasantly familiar to anyone who's had to study him as part of a music degree!)- These exact sentiments, expressed 70+ years ago.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #638699 - 18/07/08 08:43 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

I openly apologise to everyone, including Mike Oldfield.




Including Mike Oldfield may be going too far!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638710 - 18/07/08 09:46 PM
Personally I love some of the modern club stuff that uses compression and loudness to the max. I think the stuff from Justice and Sebastien, and modern electro house records sound fantastic...put against some of the best records of the eighties and nineties they acheive levels of dancefloor devastation I would have thought where immpossible. I am not really a hip hop or pop fan, but I love the energy they have and sometimes I cant believe the fantasic full frequency range smack that comes out of my speakers...

I think unfortunately it is just a case of a 'young' trend being over-aped and abused.

However this happens all the time, perhaps anybody else here can remember when everyone went 'electric', then gawd 'elp us started using drum machines and synths. Remember the outrage the DX7 caused?

Anybody on here harking back to the good old days has simply forgotten the carnage 'new waves' in popular music create. I remember Keith Tippet in an interview recalling how he was forced to eat home grown potatoes after those fab four reduced music to four chords on a guitar.

--------------------



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Tímo



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Chaconne]
      #638732 - 19/07/08 12:16 AM
Poor thing is, it's pointless discussing it, as there's nothing you do to change the situation, unless they bring strict laws into force regulating RMS levels on a commercial CD master, which is about as likely as me getting a number 1 in the charts....

Waste of breath.

At least things can't get any LOUDER.

I think the digital revolution partly encouraged the loudness wars with its old flaws. A large proportion of people still wrongly aim to hit near 0dBFS at every stage (tracking, mixing, mastering).

--------------------
http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638748 - 19/07/08 05:22 AM
Quote adam miller:


Quote Tui:

Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.




I think you should read some Adorno (the name should be unpleasantly familiar to anyone who's had to study him as part of a music degree!)- These exact sentiments, expressed 70+ years ago.




I had to study Adorno at school, all I remember is that I was bored to tears (incidentally, my music degree involved, you know, learning how to play several instruments). However, if you think that Adorno was talking about dynamic and data reduction on digital media 70 years ago, I have to say, whatever it is you are smoking, it's working.


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Chaconne]
      #638749 - 19/07/08 05:29 AM
Quote Chaconne:

Remember the outrage the DX7 caused?





No, because there wasn't any. The DX7 was the first affordable and widely popular digital synth, and everybody loved it. For keyboard players, it was an absolute must-have item like no other synth before or since.


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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638753 - 19/07/08 06:10 AM
I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public. As with so many products, if they don't want something, then it won't be made.

Maybe this guy can take credit for setting the trend but he can hardly be held responsible for sustaining it.

ken

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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: ken long]
      #638760 - 19/07/08 07:06 AM
Quote Ken Long:

I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public.




Are you suggesting people pay for this stuff?

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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #638779 - 19/07/08 07:43 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote Ken Long:

I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public.




Are you suggesting people pay for this stuff?




How naive of me indeed

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Urthlupe
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638784 - 19/07/08 08:31 AM
As folks have pointed out much of the 'square-wave sound' is genre specific. What goes around comes around....

The youngsters in this house seem perfectly capable of identifying a squashed sound and appreciating it in context for what it is while fully enjoying other types of audio presentation.

Ride the wave fellas, be creative where you can, things will change.... quite possibly you could be the one to lead the way.....

Loopy


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onesecondglance



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #638815 - 19/07/08 10:32 AM
Quote snipsnip:

Quote onesecondglance:


if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.






I dont like over compressed records, but your argument isnt true. The voice complaining about it is tiny. Most people dont care.




my point exactly. the voices of the complainers are loudest because no one else understands the issue or cares enough to rebuff it (with the exception of this thread - this is pretty much the first time i've seen people defending hyper-limited music...)

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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638818 - 19/07/08 10:37 AM
Quote adam miller:

Quote Zukan:


The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.




Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully. Compression and distortion of various types and implementations is instrumental to the sound of many musical genres- I just can't understand the sudden discontinuity that makes aggressive limiting unacceptable and other forms of distortion kosher.






Square wave compression is a destructive process that cannot be compared in the slightest to applying distortion to a sound.
If you understood the dynamics and process then you would not make this remark.
We are not talking about compression in the analogue domain whereby the headroom can be compromised with harmonic distortion.
We are talking about the limits being exceeded in the digital domain, and there is nothing musical about exceeding this ceiling.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638819 - 19/07/08 10:40 AM
Quote Zukan:


Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.




All those years that vinyl mastering engineers were trying to figure out the best way of cutting their records hotter than anyone else?





But without compromising the headroom.

I think you are misunderstanding the differences between compression in an analogue domain and the finite restrictions of the digital domain.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting your mix as loud as possible.
But compromising the sonic integrity of the mix and narrow banding it till there is no dynamic movement is not technically or aurally sound.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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ZukanModerator
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638822 - 19/07/08 10:47 AM
Quote adam miller:



Quote Zukan:


If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.




With any luck, youngsters today can use their ears and decide for themselves! I doubt there's ever been such a concentration of literature, audio magazine and mainstream newspaper articles, online forum discussion, music technology lectures and 'pro-dynamics' groups as there is now to get the 'LOUDNESS IS BAD!!!' message across to potential young producers. I feel like the pro-dynamics lobby shout so loudly about the subject that it actually becomes impossible to have a reasoned, reasonable debate about the place of hard compression and limiting within popular music.





And exactly what is the place for exceeding the digital ceiling compression in any genre when clearly every single piece of data points to it being destructive, compromising all dynamics, narrow banding and tiring the listener?

This is a music tech forum. We try to educate here not misinform.
We try to give as much technical information as possible in the right context and help people who are trying to learn.

I would never in any of my classes teach my students that digital clipping, over compression within the digital domain and narrow banding dynamics is a good thing irrespective of whether it has genre merit.

You can deliver a loud and compressed mix without compromising any of the above and actually offer more to the listener than the square wave compressed version.

You also fail to realise that almost every argument for square wave digital compression comes from misinformed listeners or beginners to this industry.
Not from industry professionals.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Zukan]
      #638827 - 19/07/08 11:10 AM
There are those who think that creationism should be taught in schools, so that children are presented with a 'balanced debate'...

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http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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adam miller



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Zukan]
      #638835 - 19/07/08 11:27 AM
Quote Zukan:


Square wave compression is a destructive process that cannot be compared in the slightest to applying distortion to a sound.




For the sake of clarity, when you say 'square wave compression' I'm taking it to mean brickwall limiting and digital clipping- is this correct? These processes alter the dynamic envelope of the sound, distort the waveform and add additional harmonics. You might hate the sound it makes and the destructiveness of the process, but it is directly comparable to other forms of distortion!

Quote Zukan:


We are not talking about compression in the analogue domain whereby the headroom can be compromised with harmonic distortion.
We are talking about the limits being exceeded in the digital domain, and there is nothing musical about exceeding this ceiling.




That's entirely a matter of opinion, especially when the limits are being exceeded by a highly experienced mastering engineer working in sympathy with a production that's been planned with loudness in mind from the very start.


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adam miller



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638844 - 19/07/08 12:13 PM
Quote Zukan:


And exactly what is the place for exceeding the digital ceiling compression in any genre when clearly every single piece of data points to it being destructive, compromising all dynamics, narrow banding and tiring the listener?




Where is this data? Why is Radio 1 smashed to within an inch of its life, Radio 2 less so and 3+4 barely at all? Have you considered that different sounds appeal to different demographics and suit different musical contexts? My argument is that hard limiting and clipping can contribute towards the overall aesthetic of a record- it's not necessarily just a process that's slapped on at the end out of 'fashion' (although there are of course plenty of records where it is).

Quote Zukan:


You also fail to realise that almost every argument for square wave digital compression comes from misinformed listeners or beginners to this industry.
Not from industry professionals.




How about the legions of industry professionals making and releasing records covered with limiting and digital clipping? If they genuinely found it as offensive as you clearly do, why do many of the biggest industry players continue to put out loud, dynamically flattened records? I refuse to believe it's all down to mindless trend following and insecurity. If Rick Rubin decided he never wanted to release another clipped, limited record he could easily do so without having to answer to anyone else.


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Anonymous
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638845 - 19/07/08 12:18 PM
Quote adam miller:


Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully.



Not an unreasonable point, though I've yet to encounter a context where massively distorting an entire mix is successful as anything but a novelty/production trick for a single track on an otherwise well presented album. For that matter, yes, doing it well is difficult and if done appropriately and in a balanced context it does have its merits but therein lies the rub. The vast majority of brick wall limiting and extreme compression is apparently done by people lacking even the basic skills required to make the recording in the first place let alone the more advanced understanding needed to break with the conventions of 'good' sound in a way that sounds like anything other than crap.



The thing I find most amusing in that article (apart from the guy's incredible ..er...self confidence ) is that anyone would actually want to claim personal responsibility for starting one of the most musically destructive and technically flawed trends ever to hit popular music recording. It may say a lot about him as a producer but perhaps not what he'd like to think it says.


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Anonymous
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638851 - 19/07/08 12:48 PM
Quote adam miller:

records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?





By extension of that argument, could it be said that the now unfashionable and politically incorrect quick slap round the back of the head and a 'grow up halfwit' is more appropriate to the short attention span of most people these days, than a long, reasoned discussion about the pros and cons of different approaches?

(Not picking on you personally Adam, it applies on all sides of an argument, you just happened to make the point that got me thinking. )


There's so much more to the whole discussion of people's shortening attention span, 'dumbing down', devaluing of culture (and many other things) and disposability of just about every aspect of modern life and how they all affect music, art, culture, consumerism, manufacturing, design, etc., etc., than can ever be covered in one discussion, let alone in a single forum thread. The reasons for so many people perceiving music as free/disposable/valueless are far more wide ranging and complex than just simple stand alone things like generational differences, cost of manufacture/distribution, talent (or lack of), etc.. The whole loudness game and increasing disposability of music are just parts of the much wider changes in society/lifestyles. I don't like music becoming throwaway and the associated devaluing of the skills, talents and years of accumulated experience but I don't see any one person or group changing it no matter how loud they shout. Only time will tell which trends are with us to stay and whether listening to bursts of distortion and square waves will be an embarrassing blip in musical history or, depressingly, the shape of things to come.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638859 - 19/07/08 01:13 PM
Quote adam miller:

For the sake of clarity, when you say 'square wave compression' I'm taking it to mean brickwall limiting and digital clipping- is this correct?




Adam, he means what he says, not some alternative meaning you are trying to superimpose on his words.

I can compress the hell out of say a distorted guitar and record that sound and make it sound good in a record. All at the analogue stage. Analogue distortion in its place is harmonic, pleasing, and useful. Start doing that stuff after the A/D converters and it is brutal, ugly, noise.

As for pandering to short attention spans, until around the mid-1960s record labels seldom released any song exceeding about 2m 30s, believing nobody could listen to the stuff for much longer (and of course playing to a radio market).

Don't confuse radio compression for mastering compression/limiting. They are quite different. I could do a completely uncompressed master of a delicate acoustic number, and what radio 1 would do to it is make it sound as "loud" as the hip-hop number they played next to it... because they have to, to retain their audience in noisy cars on motorways etc. They will do this regardless of what the ME does, so a decent ME will serve the song, not the putative broadcaster. There's no such thing as a "radio-friendly mix".


There's quite a few people contributing to this thread who seriously know what they are talking about. You could learn a lot if you opened your mind and stopped trying to defend the indefensible from (as far as I can see) a position where your technical armoury in support of your case is non-existent... and always will be.

Edited by Steve Hill (19/07/08 01:20 PM)


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638860 - 19/07/08 01:15 PM
Quote adam miller:


Why is Radio 1 smashed to within an inch of its life, Radio 2 less so and 3+4 barely at all?




Where do most people listen to the radio? In the car, a noisy environment. So a decreased dynamic range makes sense for this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure if you transmit a signal which has a larger rms (louder) you don't need to use so many transmitters, and therefore save cost.

I've always thought this was the reason for Radio 3 having awful reception.

What really winds me up in classic fm listeners, they think they know classical music, but that station is just a pop channel really. The compression is ridiculous, dynamics in classical music are hugely important.

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: ]
      #638872 - 19/07/08 02:16 PM
Quote 0VU:


There's so much more to the whole discussion of people's shortening attention span, 'dumbing down', devaluing of culture (and many other things) and disposability of just about every aspect of modern life and how they all affect music, art, culture, consumerism, manufacturing, design, etc., etc., than can ever be covered in one discussion, let alone in a single forum thread. The reasons for so many people perceiving music as free/disposable/valueless are far more wide ranging and complex than just simple stand alone things like generational differences, cost of manufacture/distribution, talent (or lack of), etc.. The whole loudness game and increasing disposability of music are just parts of the much wider changes in society/lifestyles. I don't like music becoming throwaway and the associated devaluing of the skills, talents and years of accumulated experience but I don't see any one person or group changing it no matter how loud they shout.




You are absolutely correct. Singling out over-compression, and using it for a starting point for an entire argument about current popular music, is pretty futile. As we've seen, some people actually like that sound and find it aesthetically pleasing, and nothing is going to convince them otherwise. It all boils down to taste. Personally, I haven't bought a charts-topping album in a very long time, simply because there isn't anything around I haven't heard done better, 20 years ago. The fact that many modern productions sound harsh, scratchy and lack dynamics, fades into insignificance, given their apparent lack of artistic substance. I would include my own productions in this critique - I'm not sure I would pay money to listen to my own music either.


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Chaconne



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638885 - 19/07/08 03:20 PM
Every decade some spotty yoofs pick up the available technology - carefully engineered to produce a pristine sound - and say 'cant you make it louder / or you know 'less clean'?


"One can have to much of a good thing - still more a loud"

- on the reception of Beethovens Fifth symphony.

--------------------



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archdake mkII
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638890 - 19/07/08 03:30 PM
Then why 90% of the time I play a squashed to hell version of a mix side-by-side a logical RMS one to a band [played to equal levels of course] they choose the un-distorted one?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: archdake mkII]
      #638909 - 19/07/08 04:38 PM
Quote archdake mkII:

Then why 90% of the time I play a squashed to hell version of a mix side-by-side a logical RMS one to a band [played to equal levels of course] they choose the un-distorted one?




It's the 10% we're talking about - I think.

--------------------
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Sle



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638915 - 19/07/08 06:05 PM
Great the way that the boring old gits shouldered everyone who didn't agree with them out of this thread. Go moderators!

--------------------
Stuff what I done


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Anonymous
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #638920 - 19/07/08 06:37 PM
Quote Sle:

Great the way that the boring old gits shouldered everyone who didn't agree with them out of this thread. Go moderators!




Would you care to explain that remark? Preferably without resorting to any more insults.


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desmond



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #638929 - 19/07/08 06:56 PM
Quote Sle:

Great the way that the boring old gits shouldered everyone who didn't agree with them out of this thread. Go moderators!




I typed out a really witty response to this, but after re-reading it, on balance, I decided against posting it.

It was really quite funny though. And not even slightly boring...


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Sle



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638930 - 19/07/08 06:57 PM
If you read the first/second pages, Gelled_Fringe and a few others were making a case for the other side, and were basically shouldered unceremoniously out of the way.

If people take light-hearted ribbing like "Old git" and some references to prog-rock worship that seriously, it comes across as a bit odd to me.

I remember reading the review of the L3 in SOS http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug05/articles/wavesl3.htm , and while some doubts were expressed, objectivity was kept throughout..

That's just my opinion though, and clearly it seems I must apologise for my offensive remark.

EDIT: Review of the L3, I mean, not the L2..

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Edited by Sle (19/07/08 07:03 PM)


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #638936 - 19/07/08 07:24 PM
I see it as a case of people whose arguments were comprehensively demolished, and chose to stop posting.

Maybe you have some problem with other people contributing to a discussion who might have a different opinion to you?

--------------------
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SevenIndustries



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #638951 - 19/07/08 10:04 PM
Slightly on-topic..

My friend has recently been mastering some of his mixes for Myspace (for his clients) - and he was saying that he was getting his mixes up to 0db.

Surely he means Peak and not RMS?

I thought the average indy / modern rock band was around -6dB RMS - or have things got worse?

--------------------
Mac user; Logic and ProTools systems.


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adam miller



Joined: 02/08/06
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: ]
      #638954 - 19/07/08 10:18 PM
Quote 0VU:


There's so much more to the whole discussion of people's shortening attention span, 'dumbing down', devaluing of culture (and many other things) and disposability of just about every aspect of modern life and how they all affect music, art, culture, consumerism, manufacturing, design, etc., etc., than can ever be covered in one discussion, let alone in a single forum thread. The reasons for so many people perceiving music as free/disposable/valueless are far more wide ranging and complex than just simple stand alone things like generational differences, cost of manufacture/distribution, talent (or lack of), etc.. The whole loudness game and increasing disposability of music are just parts of the much wider changes in society/lifestyles. I don't like music becoming throwaway and the associated devaluing of the skills, talents and years of accumulated experience but I don't see any one person or group changing it no matter how loud they shout. Only time will tell which trends are with us to stay and whether listening to bursts of distortion and square waves will be an embarrassing blip in musical history or, depressingly, the shape of things to come.




This is precisely why I pointed Tui towards Adorno- people had the same concerns about the commodification of music, the decline in listening skills and the banality of modern music years ago. The scapegoats change (clearly Adorno wasn't talking about digital clipping), but the arguments remain startlingly similar.


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adam miller



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638960 - 19/07/08 10:57 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


Adam, he means what he says, not some alternative meaning you are trying to superimpose on his words.




Sorry Steve, I haven't come across the expression 'square wave compression' before- I'm not trying to superimpose anything on Zukan's words, just to ensure we're talking about the same thing.

Quote Steve Hill:


Analogue distortion in its place is harmonic, pleasing, and useful. Start doing that stuff after the A/D converters and it is brutal, ugly, noise.




What if the music I'm making is brutal, ugly and noisy? I'm familiar with the sound of these digital processes- i just believe that like analogue distortion, their use in the right context and in the right hands can work in sympathy with the aesthetic of certain productions (and in a way that can't be achieved in the analogue domain).

Quote Steve Hill:


I could do a completely uncompressed master of a delicate acoustic number, and what radio 1 would do to it is make it sound as "loud" as the hip-hop number they played next to it... because they have to, to retain their audience in noisy cars on motorways etc.




And Radio 2,3 etc don't? Broadcast multiband compression doesn't just make the thing louder, as I know you're well aware- in a critical listening environment I find it far more offensive than the digital limiting and clipping processes used in mastering. Different stations have a different sonic fingerprint to fit with the intended demographic- and the same is true of music mastering.

Quote Steve Hill:


There's quite a few people contributing to this thread who seriously know what they are talking about.




I completely appreciate this Steve, and believe it or not I agree with the majority of opinion that smashing the dynamics out of music for the sake of it is a mindless, negative thing to do. By the same stretch, I have to reconcile it with the fact that I love the sound of many records that have been smashed into the digital end stops- and I believe that they'd sound inferior for their intended purpose without having been through that process. Given the sound of a great swathe of current releases, I'd have to conclude that many engineers, producers, musicians and ordinary punters feel the same way.

Quote Steve Hill:


You could learn a lot if you opened your mind and stopped trying to defend the indefensible from (as far as I can see) a position where your technical armoury in support of your case is non-existent... and always will be.




I don't really see this as a technical issue, but an aesthetic one. My opinion might appear completely unpalatable to you, but if the sound of contemporary popular music is anything to go by, I'd hope it's not one I hold in isolation.


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Celsius
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: adam miller]
      #638988 - 20/07/08 12:44 AM
Quote adam miller:


I don't really see this as a technical issue, but an aesthetic one. My opinion might appear completely unpalatable to you, but if the sound of contemporary popular music is anything to go by, I'd hope it's not one I hold in isolation.




It's not. Without getting all worked up about other peoples preferences I share your sentiments about the aesthetics.

To me compression, limiting, distortion, MBC etc is more about a sound than perceived loudness and I'll put that in front of any technical issues anyday. On indivudual instruments as well as a full mix I'll sacrifice dynamics for energy,aggression and attitude anyday if I feel it gets me where I want to go.
Do I care about what others do? Not really. If I don't like it, I simply won't bother listening to it. Dynamics or not.
and I do believe the same goes for the average music listener. Fatigue? The average listener walks around with crappy earplugs and 128 Kb/s mp3s on full blast and they aren't exactly complaining are they? They either like it or they don't. Simple.

--------------------
Phatcat Studios--"I love the smell of Genelecs in the morning"


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PWGLE



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Celsius]
      #638992 - 20/07/08 03:03 AM
This thread is pointless, its argument and tension for the sake of it.

You would argue even if you agreed on some points.

Some people in this thread I've got a great deal of respect and time for, I'm more than happy to challenge their points of views and idea's, but I know they are built on a considerable amount of experience and expertise. At the end of the day, you can't argue about that. Some of these people have being doing this for quite a while.

As an observer I just think Its a bit sad to be honest,

Even if you don't agree with someone, you can always learn from them.

L

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PWGLE



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Celsius]
      #638993 - 20/07/08 03:06 AM
Quote Celsius:

28 Kb/s mp3s on full blast and they aren't exactly complaining are they? They either like it or they don't. Simple.




Odd how nearly all illegal downloads are via things like bit torrents; they are VBR 196kbps+ mp3s. The Digital to Analogue convertor is going to have a larger bearing on the sound than, the mp3 in question.

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Celsius
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: PWGLE]
      #638994 - 20/07/08 03:24 AM
Yup.I agree. Not much point in discussing personal preferences. As for myself I'm not really too concerned about arguing any "points".Certainly not the ones I agree with. Just my personal opinion based on my own experience and observation and last but not least, my own personal preferences.

What's sad? That people disagree? When it comes to music people will always disagree.

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Bertyjnr
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639068 - 20/07/08 03:05 PM
I think it's time everyone who's contributed to this thread so far gives the person sitting next to them a hearty slap on the back.

The last three pages have been great reading and show the intelligence (and entertainment value!) of some of those who frequent this forum.

WELL DONE YOU!

My small contribution is... look at all the kids playing music on their mobile phones on speaker-phone. Now apart from only not confiscating their phones because I like not being all stabbed, this shows how much of a minority issue the whole debate is. Despite my interest in music and recording, I know few people who place importance on a decent playback system. Maybe I should get new friends...


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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Celsius]
      #639070 - 20/07/08 03:16 PM
Quote Celsius:


What's sad? That people disagree? When it comes to music people will always disagree.




Agreed!

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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639072 - 20/07/08 03:34 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

My respect level has hit rock bottom with this geezer!!! Here are some quotes from a recent SOS interview with Demacio 'Demo' Castellon, the git!!!

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

"Of course it can cut the dynamics on some records, and you definitely get fatigue listening to records that loud for a long time. But it's what people want to hear."



Cheers,
Peter




It seems many are getting worked up about one production technique out of many. Anyone remember Hugh Padgham and the gated drums of the 80s? Never was my cup of tea but that was one style among many - and many engineers/producers used this technique. Gradually new innovations in technology and new production values meant there was no place for it anymore in most compositions or mixes.

I feel the same way about brickwall limiting but I think its important to keep the nature of contemporary music in context. Never has there been such a crossover of acts and fans from one genre to another. Sure, you still have you hardcore niches but there's also the kids who listen to Hip Hop as much as Rock as much as Dance. This is unprecedented and perhaps by increasing perceived volume, a degree of consistency can be maintained across the genre spectrum.

I myself despise it for all the reasons you mention but especially because I am often forced to use it when a client decides the mix isn't as loud as what's being played in the charts. And I do agree with some that compression and limiting can be used effectively as an effect but that's besides the point for me.

ken

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Sle



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639075 - 20/07/08 03:54 PM
Yeah, diversity of opinion isn't a strong point amongst the wielders of power here though, it has to be said. Other viewpoints, unless extremely eloquently and carefully put, are railroaded out of existence in a lot of cases.

The magazine itself does NOT fall into this trap at all, as demonstrated by the link in my previous post. People should be able to come here and debate, not fight against a prevailing mindset that represents none but a few "old hands".

Again, I must state that this is purely my own opinion and is not intended to cause offence..

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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #639079 - 20/07/08 04:19 PM
Ah yes, but with age comes experience (wisdom is debatable ). I'm very grateful the members of this forum are here to assist me when I have technical issues because I know many on here have been in the situation once, if not many times before. They will have troubleshot the problem to death and can therefore speak on authority.

If an argument gets heated, I just always try to remember to write as if I was there in the room with that person, asking them for their time.

ken

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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #639080 - 20/07/08 04:19 PM
Quote Sle:

Other viewpoints, unless extremely eloquently and carefully put, are railroaded out of existence in a lot of cases.




What's wrong with eloquence, or placing one's words carefully? How would you like it if, conversely, the "old hands" were to refer to the younger audience as "pea-brained, drugged-up yobos", and to budding electronic musicians as "Little losers who sit in their mum's basement and play around with cracked copies of Cubase on beige Pentium 4 boxes"? Would you like that better?


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Sle



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639084 - 20/07/08 04:32 PM
Read the start of the thread. Sychophancy is annoying at best.

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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #639087 - 20/07/08 04:42 PM
Quote Sle:

If you read the first/second pages, Gelled_Fringe and a few others were making a case for the other side, and were basically shouldered unceremoniously out of the way.




I have as you instructed reread the start of this post, and the first thing that struck me as anything other than either a joke or a well put point was this:

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad!




which is not exactly the way you quote him above.

This guy was clearly up for a barney, and I don't think you need to worry that he was 'shouldered out of the way'.

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Aural Reject



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639094 - 20/07/08 05:16 PM
The interesting thing is the body of work that's behind some of those who are voicing their opinions. Call it sycophantic if you will, but there are people here that have rather more experience in multiple genres rather than a Bebo or Myspace page and their work speaks volumes. It doesn't mean their opinion is worth more, but it's based on a solid foundation of dealing with the artists and labels that are possibly aspirational for at best for others.


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Sle



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639097 - 20/07/08 05:34 PM
"Body of work"

Come on then? What is it?

I'll stand by my music, though I don't try to tell other people I can produce theirs.

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Stuff what I done


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639099 - 20/07/08 05:43 PM
After posting 1040 posts, you still haven't noticed that some people here have sold millions of albums, of just about any genre, in just about any country? Blimey.


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Sle



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639100 - 20/07/08 05:47 PM
Quote Tui:

After posting 1040 posts, you still haven't noticed that some people here have sold millions of albums, of just about any genre, in just about any country? Blimey.




Excuse me, I think you're a little confused.

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Stuff what I done


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Aural Reject



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #639110 - 20/07/08 06:24 PM
Quote Sle:

Quote Tui:

After posting 1040 posts, you still haven't noticed that some people here have sold millions of albums, of just about any genre, in just about any country? Blimey.


Excuse me, I think you're a little confused.



No, he's not. Reading between the lines in posts by these people would give you an indication of the kinds of people / bands / labels they've worked with. A high post count would usually indicate that a user may have been around long enough to see some.


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Sle



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Aural Reject]
      #639112 - 20/07/08 06:29 PM
Quote Aural Reject:

Reading between the lines in posts by these people would give you an indication of the kinds of people / bands / labels they've worked with. A high post count would usually indicate that a user may have been around long enough to see some.




We are not worthy!

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Stuff what I done


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Celsius
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Aural Reject]
      #639140 - 20/07/08 07:58 PM
All well and good but it's still a matter of opinion and if body of work and merits should count as any kind of validation one need only look at the most successful releases and you have the same support for the opposite view. IOW it doesn't matter how many albums you've sold or how loud you shout. From a technical standpoint it's not rocket surgery either. It's pretty obvious what the brickwall limiting does to the signal. So you really don't need to be a platinum selling producer to understand it.
What's strange is the fact that some people find it difficult to accept that others are doing it by choice, and not because they have to.

There really is no point whatsoever throwing technical arguments on the table if someone is doing it for the sound.

Of course dynamics has it's place but it's only part of the picture. The way I see it, it's just the natural evolution as a consequence of new tools and new techniques like any other element in the production process.

--------------------
Phatcat Studios--"I love the smell of Genelecs in the morning"


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Aural Reject



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Celsius]
      #639144 - 20/07/08 08:16 PM
Quote Celsius:

All well and good but it's still a matter of opinion and if body of work and merits should count as any kind of validation one need only look at the most successful releases and you have the same support for the opposite view.




Absolutely.

The thing that irks me is the apparent post further up the thread that thinks this is all about old school tie and shouldering other perspectives out of the way...along with the (admittedly fairly mild) insult.

I have no problem with whichever side of the 'loudness argument' people want to sit - I like both 'loud' stuff and material that retains it's dynamic range, although my personal preference is very much in favour of the latter.

The thing I do have an issue with is an apparent lack of respect.

Quote:

What's strange is the fact that some people find it difficult to accept that others are doing it by choice, and not because they have to




Agreed again - it really depends on what it is you're doing.

Again, a lot of the people that have voiced opinions are involved in engineering or production projects for other people. It's a simple demarcation to make when you're doing things for yourself. You do what you want to do. If you're a paid employee, then you've two choices - you either do what people are asking you to do and pay the mortgage (which, of course, has two subdivisions in it viz you like it or you don't) or you vote with your feet and work for people who're more aligned with your own musical sensibilities.

Quote:

The way I see it, it's just the natural evolution as a consequence of new tools and new techniques like any other element in the production process.




IMO evolution isn't necessarily the right word as it implies a bettering by a natural selection process. It may be a consequence of said tools and techniques....but, as Darwin would've said, eventually it'll be down to the survival of the fittest

There's room for all of it, it just depends on how you like your tea.....


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onesecondglance



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Aural Reject]
      #639163 - 20/07/08 09:15 PM
Quote Aural Reject:

IMO evolution isn't necessarily the right word as it implies a bettering by a natural selection process. It may be a consequence of said tools and techniques....but, as Darwin would've said, eventually it'll be down to the survival of the fittest




totally OT i know, but evolution is nothing to do with survival of the fittest, and Darwin would have vehemently rebuked such a statement - it was coined by a publicist who knew nothing of the theory. evolution is a process of change - not toward any end other than more change.

i like being a pedant late on a Sunday night...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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Aural Reject



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #639165 - 20/07/08 09:22 PM
Quote onesecondglance:

Quote Aural Reject:

IMO evolution isn't necessarily the right word as it implies a bettering by a natural selection process. It may be a consequence of said tools and techniques....but, as Darwin would've said, eventually it'll be down to the survival of the fittest




totally OT i know, but evolution is nothing to do with survival of the fittest, and Darwin would have vehemently rebuked such a statement - it was coined by a publicist who knew nothing of the theory. evolution is a process of change - not toward any end other than more change.

i like being a pedant late on a Sunday night...






We could always add in the probability aspects that go with it...and if something evolves into something weak then it'll (usually) be fairly transient....not strictly Darwinian, it's true, but if something's crap eventually it'll run it's course and go away....


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Aural Reject



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Aural Reject]
      #639166 - 20/07/08 09:24 PM
...or gain a cult following


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639167 - 20/07/08 09:33 PM
Other moderators can speak for themselves, but I would say that this thread amply demonstrates that there is plenty of room for opinions and nobody need be afraid to express them.

I have waved a yellow card at one poster only, not for his opinions (which I respect) but for a combative stance which, arguably, was unnecessarily hostile and likely to get in the way of an interesting discussion. And he to his credit has apologised.

Apart from (possibly coincidentally and possibly unusually!) posting personal opinions which happen to be on the same "side" on this particular question, there's no "official moderator line" being taken here, no plan agreed behind closed doors, and no conspiracy. We have views too, and are entitled to post just as forum members. IF anyone posts in a moderator capacity it's usually evident.

On the narrow topic of this thread it is perhaps appropriate for one or two old lags to advise an audience including people starting out, or doing courses, that what is being commended (by some) is not good practice, or will lose you marks in an exam etc etc. There may be half a dozen people on the planet who can use the "effect" creatively; there are thousands who can't and the evidence is there for all to see.

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moo the magic cow



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: PWGLE]
      #639169 - 20/07/08 09:41 PM
Quote PWGLE:

Is it really a war?



The 'war' is between producers trying to make each record 'louder' than the other's.

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gentle robot - chapel hill rock band


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A Non O Miss



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: moo the magic cow]
      #639207 - 21/07/08 05:34 AM
I wonder if Demacio browses this forum??

In today's day and age it needs to be done and the "war" doesn't bother me. The bad thing is people who want it pushed far too much where it becomes noticeable to the average listener. If used properly you can limit it to a respectable comparable level to most commercial music and still have it sound really good. Just because most people on here are experts and have very good ears and great setups and can notice the effects and problems with it doesn't mean it is wrong. That also doesn't mean it is the right thing to do as far as quality goes because it isn't.

Music has changed and a lot of genres simply sound better with it and simply just need it, it has been started and is here to stay...at least for awhile. I mean if it isn't loud I crank it up to damaging levels anyway so the fatigue argument doesn't jive with me..when I don't want to listen to it loud, I turn it down to where it is not fatiguing.

Find the positive, if the trend goes the other way think of all the material that will need to be remastered and remixed. Lots of business. Problem is most if not all of you will be six feet under by then...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: A Non O Miss]
      #639208 - 21/07/08 06:27 AM
Quote A Non O' Miss:

The bad thing is people who want it pushed far too much where it becomes noticeable to the average listener. If used properly you can limit it to a respectable comparable level to most commercial music and still have it sound really good.




That's true... and to be clear I at least am not objecting to limiting at the mastering stage. People have been doing that for half a century. I object to (ab)using limiting to clip the entire mix.

Quote A Non O' Miss:

Find the positive, if the trend goes the other way think of all the material that will need to be remastered and remixed.




... and I object to the "remasters" of (many, not all) old classic albums being treated in the same way! There's an entire generation of people who have probably only listed to these versions of (say) Hotel California by the Eagles, as remastered for CD, then turned into mp3 for the download market, who simply don't know they are listening to the wrong, and vastly inferior, album. That's just deceptive.

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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Sle]
      #639233 - 21/07/08 08:22 AM
Quote Sle:

Gelled_Fringe and a few others were making a case for the other side, and were basically shouldered unceremoniously out of the way.




Sorry Sle, but Gelled_Fringe didn't present his case very well at all and all I got was a complete tosh of abuse. Just thought I'd point that out again before I'm accused, again, of being an old git... of which I am NOT

Cheers,
Peter

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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Aural Reject]
      #639236 - 21/07/08 08:27 AM
Quote Aural Reject:

[extreme limiting could die out]...or gain a cult following




you mean in thirty years when it's fashionable to have everything analogue and with 12dbfs headroom, some independent spirits - the Steve Albinis of their day - will be whacking everything through maxed out limiters?! they'll start comparing "vintage" limiters, to see which one has the most obvious clipping...

"it adds so much character, y'know? gotta get that '00 sound..."

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Humphreysbogort



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #639246 - 21/07/08 08:58 AM
I'm in my mid twenties.

I have something to confess.

I've started listening to radio 4 on my way home from work (bows head in shame)

When I listen to comercial 'pop radio stations such as radio 1, I can't seem to do it for more than 10 mins. It feels like someone is coming up to my ear and SHOUTING AT ME AS LOUD AS THEY CAN. The quality of the 'records' that they play is absolutely destroyed into a squashed mess of hi hat wash.

In contrast i find the smooth relaxed tones of radio 4...well just relaxing, shame they don't play records.

anyway...confession over...I feel so liberated!


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639247 - 21/07/08 08:59 AM
It's all down to taste. As with food, some people, given the choice between a proper meal and getting some grub from a fast-food chain, will still pick the fast-food...

However, what's been happening with popular music is that choice has been eradicated. To my ears, most popular music - whether from the States, Europe or Asia - sounds pretty much the same: Autotuned and Protooled to death, void of subtleties or dynamics. In a word: boring. Not to mention mind numbing one-chord/one-beat/one-bass line dance tracks. My parent's generation listened and danced to music by Glen Miller and Benny Goodman, which, by comparison, seems like classical symphony and opera. Talking about "evolution", in this context, has to be a sad joke.


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639277 - 21/07/08 10:15 AM
Radio 4 is don. Dont be ashamed.

If you want records theres always desert island discs. Plus kirsty youngs voice is nice.

win win.


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Handlestash



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639281 - 21/07/08 10:28 AM
It's not all doom and/or gloom though.
Has anyone heard Joan as police woman's first album: Real Life? Mmm... dynamic.
She has a new one out but I haven't heard it yet.

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audioartist



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Handlestash]
      #639298 - 21/07/08 11:28 AM
Quote Handlestash:

It's not all doom and/or gloom though.
Has anyone heard Joan as police woman's first album: Real Life? Mmm... dynamic.
She has a new one out but I haven't heard it yet.




yes! great album

go see her live, even more amazing


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onesecondglance



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: audioartist]
      #639305 - 21/07/08 11:42 AM
does anyone think it would be enlightening to make a poll to gauge the overall balance of opinion regarding "loudness" on this forum? or would it just be another battleground in the making?

i just wonder if we might be surprised at how many people say they are either not bothered by, or indeed enjoy extreme limited tracks. it wouldn't prove anything, of course, but might be interesting to see what sort of numbers come up. and voters wouldn't have to worry about starting any arguments or affecting their reps in the same way as posting in a thread like this.

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Edited by onesecondglance (21/07/08 11:45 AM)


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Zukan


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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #639322 - 21/07/08 12:13 PM
Quote onesecondglance:

does anyone think it would be enlightening to make a poll to gauge the overall balance of opinion regarding "loudness" on this forum? or would it just be another battleground in the making?





Not really onesecond, simply because there still seems to be some confusion between the concepts of loudness and square wave compression.

Having a mix loud can be achieved in a number of ways by a good ME without being destructive.

But narrow banding a mix is an entirely different subject and quite confusing for those who do not understand the technical process and side effects.

There also seems to be confusion, from reading these posts, about over compression being used in a musical context.
It seems that many are confusing over compression on individual sounds against over compression on an entire mix master.

Nothing at all wrong with narrow banding certain sounds in a mix but to narrow band a mix completely undermines the whole process and actually serves no useful purpose, both aurally and aesthetically, even for genre specific mixes.

Because of these confusions a poll would not really reflect a true result as the misunderstanding and confusion between the two is clearly evident in this thread.

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onesecondglance



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639324 - 21/07/08 12:20 PM
fair enough!

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JamesSimpson



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639334 - 21/07/08 12:54 PM
narpin dont be embarrassed im 19 and i hate the sound of radio 1. I also despise the idea that the "youth of today" are telling us what to listen to by the coolest guys around, two of which are zane lowe, and my personal favourite Tim public school westwood. If i wanted to know a 50 year olds opinion on the latest hip hop record id ask my dad.

This isnt a derision of age I actually prefer a lot of older records and prefer radio 2 over radio 1 if i have to listen to the radio. I just refuse to believe that Tim Westwood can be at all genuine.

If it gives anybody else a slither of satisfaction of hope, everybody i know who performs music hates radio 1 and the practise of super compressed music. If the next generation of music creators dislike this practise surely they wont allow it in their music and so the public will still buy that music as its the big new thing. I dont think the public would notice, the radio stations still have compressors, but if the artist persists especially with the breaking down of larger record labels power, hopefully in the future records will sound better.

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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #639371 - 21/07/08 02:52 PM
Radio 1 has been rubbish since 1967 when they kicked off with Flowers In The Rain by the Move, introduced by DJ Tony Blackburn. (Tragically, I remember where I was when I listened to this).

With rare honourable exceptions like John Peel they've always been middle-of-the-road, chart oriented pap. Exactly what you'd expect the Beeb to come up with as a tax-funded public service broadcaster tasked with doing something for "youth", and convening many committees of grey-haired old farts to consider what the brief actually meant.

If you scour the R1 playlists of the late 1960s you'll find little or no trace of Hendrix, Zeppelin, Floyd... no hope for anyone not issuing singles, and/or a bit "underground" (for which read inaccessible), or controversial. Setting fire to guitars = incitement to riot! Actually a plausible enough fear given the student riots of 68, Mao's Little Red Book, the cold war etc. I'm sure the Beeb felt it was their patriotic duty to keep the nation's youth on the straight and narrow.

Good job we had the pirates.

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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #639375 - 21/07/08 03:12 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

...convening many committees of grey-haired old farts to consider what the brief actually meant.





I thought we dispensed with the name calling .

Agreed about Peel though. He was the only one playing obscure music which would never have been heard were it not for his show. There was a lot of cr*p on there too but when it was good, it was great.

ken

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Handlestash



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639377 - 21/07/08 03:18 PM
There is 1, I repeat, 1 radio station in the whole of Ireland that is not shackled to the charts and that's Phantom 105.2 They have never played keaneplay or anyone of that ilk, not one R&B 'drop' from after 1990 nor Celien Dion. They play more Irish bands (signed or not) than any other station in the country ever has. They play current bands but have a good mix of old school stuff. They even have Bob Dylan's show on sunday evenings. They strive to offer fresh pregramming (their programme director 'fired himself' from doing the morning show this week because he felt they needed a change)
Does anybody listen to them?
Eh...
(I don't work for them by the way)

Biggest station in Dublin City? Spin. Text in shows, mid atlantic accents, cash givaways a fleet of pink Mini's and Fiddy Cent.

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A Non O Miss



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639427 - 21/07/08 06:13 PM
Quote:

To my ears, most popular music - whether from the States, Europe or Asia - sounds pretty much the same: Autotuned and Protooled to death, void of subtleties or dynamics. In a word: boring. Not to mention mind numbing one-chord/one-beat/one-bass line dance tracks. My parent's generation listened and danced to music by Glen Miller and Benny Goodman, which, by comparison, seems like classical symphony and opera. Talking about "evolution", in this context, has to be a sad joke.




I listen to old stuff and it has the same, as you call it, mind numbing boring backing tracks. Just because they are guitar or whatever doesn't make them any different. Simple is simple whether it be a heavily repeated hook from your favorite old school band or a repeated loop from your most hated new school performer.

You and I may be able to tell what is auto tuned and such, and when used over the top for effect I don't like it much either, but a subtle auto tune to help smooth everything out makes it sound a lot better to the average listener. I play stuff that has subtle auto tune and they don't sit back and start ranting and raving, it is limited and they don't sit back and start grumbling...They go "Wow this sounds really good, so professional and smooth". I play one that doesn't have it and I get.."Wow now I understand what mixing does". Everything in moderation..

Complain all you want don't forget that the customer is boss.


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: A Non O Miss]
      #639431 - 21/07/08 06:22 PM
Quote A Non O' Miss:

Complain all you want don't forget that the customer is boss.




That is a extremely valid and excellent point.

P

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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639470 - 21/07/08 08:21 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote A Non O' Miss:

Complain all you want don't forget that the customer is boss.




That is a extremely valid and excellent point.

P




What point? If they really could sing and play, all the autotuning and protooling wouldn't be necessary. Before those tools became available, artists either could sing and play, or they had no product. Simple. Nowadays, everybody seems to think they can skip the practising and rehearsing bit - never mind talent - fix it all in he mix, and Bob's your uncle. Result: Switch on the radio, go down to a club, watch xyz music programme on telly, and die of boredom.

Music was the same 20-30 years ago? Don't make me laugh. There were Bob Marley, Al Jarreau, Kate Bush, George Benson, Jethro Tull, Donald Fagen, Grace Jones, Tina Turner, Earth, Wind & Fire in the charts, to name but a few. All superb artists and totally original. Today you'd need a microscope to find artists of comparable calibre in the charts.


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639473 - 21/07/08 08:27 PM
Quote Tui:

Today you'd need a microscope to find artists of comparable calibre in the charts.




I would agree, but it depends what you're looking for. And its evident your not exactly open minded when it comes to music.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #639484 - 21/07/08 08:46 PM
Quote snipsnip:

Quote Tui:

Today you'd need a microscope to find artists of comparable calibre in the charts.




I would agree, but it depends what you're looking for. And its evident your not exactly open minded when it comes to music.




This really is not a generational thing however much people might wish it were. I have in the last 12 months worked with people up to 35 years younger than me (and some a bit older) and we get on fine. I know young musicians who squeeze every bit of wisdom they can out of say Beatles stuff to help them develop their songwriting craft. And that's good.

However, if we have to get "generational", I can't actually think of a period in my misspent youth where an entire body of music was ruthlessly, if entertainingly, dismissed by a serious national newspaper as "indie landfill".

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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639491 - 21/07/08 09:12 PM
I dont like that indie ish either mang, but its totally subjective at the end of the day.

plus I dont think referencing an article from the independent is exactly proof of anything.

That used to be a good paper but now it pumps out as much ish as the mail. Every other special feature is scare mongering about electro magnetic poisoning or some tosh.

Also, OF COURSE its generational. Everything is, its the nature of the beast that people 50 years younger than you are going to think differently. Theyve grown up in a totally different world.

You cant say kate bush is better than kano just because YOU think she's better. Theres a million people that disagree in each direction and trying to pretend that your inexorably right only makes people look stupid.


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A Non O Miss



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639496 - 21/07/08 09:26 PM
Quote:

What point? If they really could sing and play, all the autotuning and protooling wouldn't be necessary. Before those tools became available, artists either could sing and play, or they had no product. Simple. Nowadays, everybody seems to think they can skip the practising and rehearsing bit - never mind talent - fix it all in he mix, and Bob's your uncle. Result: Switch on the radio, go down to a club, watch xyz music programme on telly, and die of boredom.

Music was the same 20-30 years ago? Don't make me laugh. There were Bob Marley, Al Jarreau, Kate Bush, George Benson, Jethro Tull, Donald Fagen, Grace Jones, Tina Turner, Earth, Wind & Fire in the charts, to name but a few. All superb artists and totally original. Today you'd need a microscope to find artists of comparable calibre in the charts.




You're missing the point. Don't generalize something simply because of technology. Becoming lazy and or not being able to sing and overusing auto tuning is not good and I do not agree with it. However there are plenty of older records and artists that could have been a little better if subtle tuning was used. Not everyone "back in the day" was a perfect singer. The difference with today is the advancement of technology making it a lot easier to do these things and unfortunately a lot of artists simply rely on it.

Also the whole face of music is changing with labels not wanting to invest money to develop artists. This causes all artists to start off on an indie basis. Some are more serious than others and some take more care in their careers. With the advancement of technology however it allows everyone to give it a shot and the ones that are not serious help heap crap onto the pile making it harder to find comparable music. This is just the way it is. If only big studios could turn out records like the old days then obviously we wouldn't have so much garbage, but times have changed, deal with it. Not everyone can afford a million dollar budget on an indie level, but that doesn't mean that all indie music is garbage.

The old days are exactly that, OLD.

It would be nice if every person could sing perfect but just because I should be able to maintain the same speed on the highway doesn't mean I am not going to use the cruise control.


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639497 - 21/07/08 09:27 PM
Quote Tui:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote A Non O' Miss:

Complain all you want don't forget that the customer is boss.




That is a extremely valid and excellent point.

P




What point?




That more than often you have to bite your lip and deliver EXACTLY what THEY want, no matter how much you try and convince them it's not the way to go.

Cheers,
Peter

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #639502 - 21/07/08 09:35 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


However, if we have to get "generational", I can't actually think of a period in my misspent youth where an entire body of music was ruthlessly, if entertainingly, dismissed by a serious national newspaper as "indie landfill".




"I was in Gap a few weeks ago and there was some sort of generic indie music playing," he says. "I was with a friend who's a promoter and a bit younger than me. After about three or four tracks I asked him: 'Whose LP is this?' And he said, 'No, it's a compilation.' Every track sounded identical. The guitars, the production; all these bands sound like they're made in the same studio with the same producer. It's such a ball-less, soulless, generic whitewashed indie sound. You could probably take a member from each band and throw them together in a new group and no one would be able to tell the difference. They're completely interchangeable."

Exactly. And that's just one contemporary style of music, I could say the same about pretty much all of them. God, I have such a CRAVING for somebody exciting to come along and make me feel like the first time I watched Earth, Wind & Fire on TV - I will never forget the moment when my jaw dropped to the floor. Or Kate Bush when she did her Wuthering Heights - whether of not you like her voice, nobody had done anything similar before. Or Grace Jones' Slave to the Rhythm - music from another world. What happened to that kind of raw creativity, that sense of excitement, the push of boundaries beyond all conventions?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #639504 - 21/07/08 09:39 PM
Quote snipsnip:

Also, OF COURSE its generational. Everything is, its the nature of the beast that people 50 years younger than you are going to think differently. Theyve grown up in a totally different world.




Strange as it may seem, I happen to occupy the same world and keep reasonably apprised of what's going on in it. Possibly to a degree that the average young person might consider scary.

But it is the birthright of youth to use music as a cudgel with which to beat up their parents' generation because, obviously, their stuff is way cooler.

We all go through it. Eventually, if you are halfway serious about music, you spend a bit of time working out why say Nelson Riddle was such a good arranger of Sinatra's songs. Or how J S Bach modulated his key changes. Because it's vital information for your craft. It's rites of passage like this that stop you being a dilettante fan and start you being a serious professional. You either reject them or embrace them, and thus is your future as a musician determined.

The best musicians I've ever worked with learn something every day and are always listening to new (or old) stuff.

They might dislike it quickly, and move on. But they give it a go, just in case it offers something.

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Celsius
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639505 - 21/07/08 09:39 PM
Listening to 20 year old pop music and there are plenty of examples of popular artist in dire need of tuning.

Listing your own highly personal prefs seems slightly irrelevant btw.
In the end it just depends who you ask. The keyword is taste, and that differ as everyone know.
The artists might appear "superb" to you but keep in mind that it's s**t to others.

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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #639506 - 21/07/08 09:39 PM
Quote Steve Hill:


This really is not a generational thing however much people might wish it were.




Unfortunately, I think it is and here's why:

Quote Steve Hill:


I have in the last 12 months worked with people up to 35 years younger than me (and some a bit older) and we get on fine. I know young musicians who squeeze every bit of wisdom they can out of say Beatles stuff to help them develop their songwriting craft. And that's good.




And that's good? OK. Sometimes I'll admit.


Quote Steve Hill:

However, if we have to get "generational", I can't actually think of a period in my misspent youth where an entire body of music was ruthlessly, if entertainingly, dismissed by a serious national newspaper as "indie landfill".




Interesting article but it is using seriously commercial "indie bands" as its barometer of success.

ken

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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639507 - 21/07/08 09:43 PM
Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote Tui:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote A Non O' Miss:

Complain all you want don't forget that the customer is boss.




That is a extremely valid and excellent point.

P




What point?




That more than often you have to bite your lip and deliver EXACTLY what THEY want, no matter how much you try and convince them it's not the way to go.

Cheers,
Peter




I chose not to work with people who can't sing or play. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have to - it would drive me around the bend.


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Celsius
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #639508 - 21/07/08 09:44 PM
You just need to look a bit further back to find an entire genre dismissed by an entire generation.(with precious few exeptions).

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Steve Hill
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Celsius]
      #639509 - 21/07/08 09:45 PM
No truly great musician has ever dismissed anything without first giving it a fair, critical hearing, free from bias.

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PWGLE



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639511 - 21/07/08 09:47 PM
Although Radio1 is generally rubbish, I've got quite alot of time for Rob Bank, and Chris Coco. I've discovered some pretty decent stuff through them....

Shame you have to tune in at 2am or something silly like that!

L

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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639513 - 21/07/08 09:54 PM
Quote Tui:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote Tui:

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

Quote A Non O' Miss:

Complain all you want don't forget that the customer is boss.




That is a extremely valid and excellent point.

P




What point?




That more than often you have to bite your lip and deliver EXACTLY what THEY want, no matter how much you try and convince them it's not the way to go.

Cheers,
Peter




I chose not to work with people who can't sing or play. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have to - it would drive me around the bend.




If I was in a position to pick and chose, maybe I would turn down the more "involved" clients, so every little helps.

Cheers,
Peter

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Celsius
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #639519 - 21/07/08 10:20 PM
Nah. Musicians aren't exactly known for being open minded. Great or not. Most of them are perfectly capable of dismissing an entire genre without bothering to listen. They simply dismiss it as "the wrong genre". Some examples of this in this very thread too. Again it comes down to taste and, IMO, anyone claiming to have "better" taste than other really comes of as a snob(not directed at you), but it does become relevant when aesthetics are involved

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A Non O Miss



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #639526 - 21/07/08 10:39 PM
Quote:

No truly great musician has ever dismissed anything without first giving it a fair, critical hearing, free from bias.




I couldn't agree more with this statement. Any artist that is unable to listen to every artist in every genre and try and learn something from every one of them will never be the best they can be.

I'm no fan of Country music but I sure enjoy listening to it and have no hesitation of taking what I can from it. To me music is music no matter what genre or what generation you are talking about, if you are a music lover you will accept every genre from every generation, whether or not you will support that genre financially is another story.

This in itself doesn't make me great but hopefully it makes me as good as I can be. If I can add Country elements along with Rock and Techno in a pot with Hip-Hop hopefully I will not be generalized as mindless following by cynics like Tui


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: A Non O Miss]
      #639530 - 21/07/08 10:51 PM
Quote A Non O' Miss:

cynics like Tui




I'm no cynic. I love music, but I can't stand mediocrity dressed up as "art" and rolled out to global audiences as if it was God's gift to the world.


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Squiresy91



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639531 - 21/07/08 10:56 PM
I think its just a case of using the tools to do the job. I think if they had a autotune etc in the "old days" then they would have used just as much as the artists of today. Its just development in technology has made it easier, cheap and quicker to acheive results in the studio. I do however believe that song writing isn't as good as it is on "older" records, maybe its because you had to be a better musician before quantize etc but again thats only my view other folks may well disagree!

Also find myself agreeing with the "old gits" (as they have been refered to!)on here quiet often! hehe sorry couldn't resist!

And on the topic (how dare I?!) Im quite a fan of loud mastered tracks I like it when I heard a well produced Pop song doing its thing you might laugh but the 'Jordin Sparks No Air' is one that has been mastered really bloomin loud but its right for that song!

Anyhow peace my forum friends let there be harmony (haha see what i did there? ......................Ok so it wasn't funny ermm i'll get my coat!


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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #639532 - 21/07/08 10:59 PM
Quote Tui:

I love music




We all do. And its this passion that fuels these futile arguments over taste.

ken

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I'm All Ears.


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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Squiresy91]
      #639534 - 21/07/08 11:11 PM
Quote Squiresy91:

I think its just a case of using the tools to do the job. I think if they had a autotune etc in the "old days" then they would have used just as much as the artists of today.




Agreed. But artists in 'the past' have always been discovered on merit. More than often this means genuine talent - regardless of error correction.

Quote Squiresy91:


Its just development in technology has made it easier, cheap and quicker to acheive results in the studio. I do however believe that song writing isn't as good as it is on "older" records, maybe its because you had to be a better musician before quantize etc but again thats only my view other folks may well disagree!





I would agree with the first part of this statement but I can't agree with the second because I'm hearing a multitude of bands at the moment who are flipping the past on its head, all while retaining the integrity of good old fashioned song-writing.

ken

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I'm All Ears.


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Squiresy91



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639537 - 21/07/08 11:24 PM
I see your point with the song writting i just mean on a whole i don't think its as good. There are some amazing songs written these days don't get me wrong. I think your right about artists being found on merit way back when.


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ken long



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Squiresy91]
      #639542 - 21/07/08 11:41 PM
Quote Squiresy91:

I see your point with the song writting i just mean on a whole i don't think its as good.




Well sure. But considering their is no budget for song writers anymore, some of the songs being released today are quality - both musically and lyrically. Yes, they are very rare. However, I don't believe that song writing, as a profession, is dead. Look at people like Amanda Ghost for example. She's been writing for many international artists and her songs always do well... as in platinum.

But perhaps that still doesn't compare with the past?

ken

ken

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table for two
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639544 - 21/07/08 11:44 PM
Current trend of shouting (loudness) to try and sound important, when generally they have f*all to say.


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Squiresy91



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: ken long]
      #639548 - 22/07/08 12:07 AM
Umm her songs must be (Are) of good quality for sure and i don't for a second doubt peoples ability to create hits and multi selling record if i did i wouldn't write songs anymore myself.

Maybe its because I've grown up in showbiz enviroment around older performers i have the view, they've rubbed off on my haha.

Although I write and produce modern pop songs doesn't mean i should only listen to modern songwriting. like i said earlier its my view only and other may not agree.


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snipsnip



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Squiresy91]
      #639589 - 22/07/08 08:14 AM
Quote Squiresy91:

they've rubbed off on my haha.





am i the only one immature enough to think that sounds funny?


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Handlestash



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #639609 - 22/07/08 09:08 AM
Quote snipsnip:

Quote Squiresy91:

they've rubbed off on my haha.





am i the only one immature enough to think that sounds funny?




No, +1.

--------------------
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thomomatic



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #639642 - 22/07/08 10:19 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Radio 1 has been rubbish since 1967 when they kicked off with Flowers In The Rain by the Move, introduced by DJ Tony Blackburn. (Tragically, I remember where I was when I listened to this).

With rare honourable exceptions like John Peel they've always been middle-of-the-road, chart oriented pap. Exactly what you'd expect the Beeb to come up with as a tax-funded public service broadcaster tasked with doing something for "youth", and convening many committees of grey-haired old farts to consider what the brief actually meant.

If you scour the R1 playlists of the late 1960s you'll find little or no trace of Hendrix, Zeppelin, Floyd... no hope for anyone not issuing singles, and/or a bit "underground" (for which read inaccessible), or controversial. Setting fire to guitars = incitement to riot! Actually a plausible enough fear given the student riots of 68, Mao's Little Red Book, the cold war etc. I'm sure the Beeb felt it was their patriotic duty to keep the nation's youth on the straight and narrow.

Good job we had the pirates.




It is just like today then! Nothing changed much!

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Squiresy91



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: snipsnip]
      #639648 - 22/07/08 10:30 AM
Erm rubbed off on 'ME' gulp! How embarrassing!


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feline1
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Bradley Steenkamp]
      #639651 - 22/07/08 10:31 AM
Quote Bradley:


Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!





Perhaps he was getting confused between "Mozart" and "Falco"

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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Peter Conz Connelly
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: feline1]
      #639693 - 22/07/08 11:54 AM
Quote feline1:

Quote Bradley:


Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!





Perhaps he was getting confused between "Mozart" and "Falco"





LOL

--------------------
Composer, Songwriter, Producer, Sound Designer
www.peterconnelly.com


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Parker Fly



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: feline1]
      #639699 - 22/07/08 12:04 PM
Quote Bradley:


Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!





'Yesterday' vs 'A.N.Other symphony'

I'd say both were as difficult to write as each other.


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feline1
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #639812 - 22/07/08 04:55 PM
Quote Parker Fly:

Quote Bradley:


Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!





'Yesterday' vs 'A.N.Other symphony'

I'd say both were as difficult to write as each other.





Well, for instance, Tchaikovsky wrote more songs than he did symphonies! They were big hits in their day, but its his 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies that the crowds go wild for these days. Maybe in another 100 years, we'll all grove to his songs again.

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Parker Fly]
      #639816 - 22/07/08 05:18 PM
Quote Parker Fly:

Quote Bradley:


Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!





'Yesterday' vs 'A.N.Other symphony'

I'd say both were as difficult to write as each other.




well, I'm not sure if anyone woke up from a dream with a complete symphony running through their head... correct me if I'm wrong!

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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feline1
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639982 - 23/07/08 10:21 AM
you think not?
Symphonies only generally have 4 movements anyways
( = half a dozen actual tunes, the rest is all "orchestration" and texture, and would be scored out by the composer as bookwork)
i.e. what I'm saying is that if you wake up with half a dozen melodies and the ideas for texture in your head, you're about 80% of the way there
(sits back whilst dozens of proper classical musos spit their coffee over their screens)

Getting back to the loudness wars:
one f*cking annoying problem is that the EU have now put a cap on iPod output volumes, which means loudness-warred pop mixes are still easily audible,
but if I put a classical track on my iPod, even at full volume, I generally CANNOT HEAR the quiet bits if I'm outside with ordinary earbuds - I can't turn the iPod up loud enough.

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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R. Spisketts



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #639994 - 23/07/08 10:47 AM
Modern LOUD music is like fast food, high in sugar and calories, designed to give an instant fix but leave you feeling empty and craving for more an hour later. Makes perfect business sense: when you're already sitting on a goldmine of music from the 50's onwards, who is going to spend £££'s developing the next Beatles, Presley, Bowie, Madonna, Prince, Pink Floyd etc when there isn't one to be found? Focus instead on making what you have - an increasingly bland selection of musical landfill (to borrow that genius phrase) - as attractive as possible. Everything to the max, bikini clad nubiles grinding into the camera, chop it up into ringtones, sell some Pepsi, part the punters with their cash and move onto the next thing. WOOF!

--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump


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jrbcm



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #695267 - 07/01/09 11:49 PM
Ok, I just listened to the Justice album.

That is one UTTERLY RIDICULOUS level of compression.

It's like having your ears pulled from inside out of your own head.

Shame. Sorry if it's already been mentioned on this thread - don't have time to read it -but that album's a write-off IMO.


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Syncratic



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: jrbcm]
      #695288 - 08/01/09 02:08 AM
Quote jrbcm:

Ok, I just listened to the Justice album.

That is one UTTERLY RIDICULOUS level of compression.

It's like having your ears pulled from inside out of your own head.

Shame. Sorry if it's already been mentioned on this thread - don't have time to read it -but that album's a write-off IMO.




The compression on that album is part of it, heavily compressed synths being part of their unique sound. I love the album and the sound and don't find the compression annoying because it is used creatively. Almost like the increased use of distortion over the last 30(?) years as a means of creating something new. The production is blatent and brilliant IMO. Also, the album isn't stupidly hard limited and actually has a fair amount of dynamic range for a modern dance record. I haven't tired of it within the last year and a half.

That 'write-off' album is the most creative and successful dance releases of the last decade.


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IvanSC



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #695296 - 08/01/09 06:15 AM
but there again how old are you, Sincratik?

I am never sure why, but I seem to end up with very loud mixes compared to a lot of commercial stuff without relying on compression. Usually end up having to tame then down quite a bit, so it isnt simply a question of squeezing the last drop of volume out of the format, I think it is laziness on the part of engineers & producers/mastering engineers when told by the label "make it sound really loud on radio etc"

Part of it I think is down to choice of textures - I tend to use a lot of disparate, fairly cleanly-recorded sounds, so I would not be able to do the same with, say, a metal album.
Would imagine that this technique would translate well onto HipHop though, god help me!
No - forget I said that!
Off to ahve a lie down....

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Syncratic



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #695337 - 08/01/09 10:23 AM
I'm in the younger bracket of the community, why do you ask?

I don't find 'Cross' to be particularly loud, the compressors have been used for a different reason (for the most part).


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tomafd



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: jrbcm]
      #695356 - 08/01/09 11:00 AM
Quote jrbcm:



It's like having your ears pulled from inside out of your own head.

.




Interesting. I find listening to over compressed music is more like having my ears pushed inside my head to the point where they cross over and come out of the other side ...

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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jrbcm



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Syncratic]
      #695375 - 08/01/09 11:39 AM
Quote SyncratiK:



The compression on that album is part of it, heavily compressed synths being part of their unique sound. I love the album and the sound and don't find the compression annoying because it is used creatively. Almost like the increased use of distortion over the last 30(?) years as a means of creating something new. The production is blatent and brilliant IMO. Also, the album isn't stupidly hard limited and actually has a fair amount of dynamic range for a modern dance record. I haven't tired of it within the last year and a half.

That 'write-off' album is the most creative and successful dance releases of the last decade.




I hear what you're saying, and 'write-off' is probably a bit strong- I love alot of the music there too, but I still think there's enough else that's interesting about the production without squashing it so heavily - all it does is obscure what's there.

And as far as dynamic range goes, yep I've heard worse, but on my Central Station the meters never dip below about -2db. It's a square wave.


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MajorFubar69



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #695424 - 08/01/09 02:29 PM
Adopting my usual MOR stance, I don't think there's a real answer. When I was younger, I know of people who preferred the sound of a record after they'd "taped" it to cassette on their invariably lo-fi cheap cassette decks, packaged into cheap Japanese or Taiwanese "music centres" of highly dubious quality. Why? Because the voracious ALC (little more than a primitive, single-band compressor) turned up the quiet stuff and sat on the loud stuff to make the record sound more like they first heard it on (predominantly AM) radio. Of course I know that's analogue compression whereas what we're condemning here is wanton 'digital destruction', but the point I'm making (albeit long-windedly) is that "there's no accounting for taste".

--------------------
I'm a bedroom beatsmith in an 8x7 cell, writing trance dance and techno, and sometimes words as well...


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Michael Dow



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #695445 - 08/01/09 03:23 PM
edit cos i lost track of what the initial thread was about

--------------------
www.myspace.com/michaeldow www.myspace.com/portasoundband


Edited by Michael Dow (08/01/09 03:34 PM)


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Richard Graham



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: feline1]
      #695730 - 09/01/09 11:20 AM
Quote feline1:

you think not?
Symphonies only generally have 4 movements anyways
( = half a dozen actual tunes, the rest is all "orchestration" and texture, and would be scored out by the composer as bookwork)
i.e. what I'm saying is that if you wake up with half a dozen melodies and the ideas for texture in your head, you're about 80% of the way there
(sits back whilst dozens of proper classical musos spit their coffee over their screens)

Getting back to the loudness wars:
one f*cking annoying problem is that the EU have now put a cap on iPod output volumes, which means loudness-warred pop mixes are still easily audible,
but if I put a classical track on my iPod, even at full volume, I generally CANNOT HEAR the quiet bits if I'm outside with ordinary earbuds - I can't turn the iPod up loud enough.




Feline, this issue also affected Creative Nomad Jukeboxes (which I still, stubbornly, use): European ones were crippled with a horrible loudness limiter that also seemed to mangle the sound-quality.

The solution was to install the US firmware, which I did immediately. My Jukebox is now loud and clear. It also plays back CD quality WAVs. And has 2 line outs as well as the headphone out. The sound quality is great too.

The disadvantage is, since it's the size of a CD-walkman, using a Nomad 3 is the equivalent of having a 'brick' style mobile-phone. Maybe for classical stuff you could pick one up, though: or just find some US firmware for your iPod.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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IvanSC



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Syncratic]
      #695798 - 09/01/09 01:58 PM
Quote SyncratiK:

I'm in the younger bracket of the community, why do you ask?

I don't find 'Cross' to be particularly loud, the compressors have been used for a different reason (for the most part).



Because I have noticed that the younger members of our little group here seem to ahve more tolerance to mangled sound than us oldies who were brought up on stuff wot sounded close to real.

I have a real hard time listening to anything that has just had the sh1t squeezed out of everything indiscriminately to get it LOUD.
Some creative compression is fine, but there are limits and I think the majority of mixes I hear these days are well over that limit.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Syncratic



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #695807 - 09/01/09 02:18 PM
I agree, many dance mixes are certainly over done nowadays, there's an artist I really like who spoils their tracks with hard limiting, which bugs me. I suppose your right about being younger, I think I'm pretty tolerant, partly because I like mangled sounds and partly because my ears probably don't notice it as much.


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Chaconne



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696182 - 11/01/09 02:18 AM
Its just the same old story - youngsters see the medium and think of a way to max out the sound. Faced with perfect digital recording what else would you do?

The Justice album is a 21st century classic as far as I am concerned - made by people who just dont give a whatever about "analogue vs digital" or how things "used to be done".

Any more than than Ray Davies did when he played guitar through a broken speaker cone, or players started deliberately "distorting" these hand crafted tube amps.

Its easy to forget that craving for energy once you reach fourty - although you will continue to defend the young and hungry guys who offended your parents when you were young.

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Chaconne



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696183 - 11/01/09 02:20 AM
That sounded personal - It includes me - when I catch myself moaning about modern music!

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jrbcm



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Chaconne]
      #696210 - 11/01/09 10:38 AM
Quote Chaconne:

Its just the same old story - youngsters see the medium and think of a way to max out the sound. Faced with perfect digital recording what else would you do?

The Justice album is a 21st century classic as far as I am concerned - made by people who just dont give a whatever about "analogue vs digital" or how things "used to be done".

Any more than than Ray Davies did when he played guitar through a broken speaker cone, or players started deliberately "distorting" these hand crafted tube amps.

Its easy to forget that craving for energy once you reach fourty - although you will continue to defend the young and hungry guys who offended your parents when you were young.




Yeah, but you're forgetting that the vast majority of historical trends and experiments go in the bin. Or at least get refined. Personally speaking, the Justice compression is just too unsubtle- the whole track is just squashed to bu55ery, wheras other dance artists use compression really creatively, and it's not easy to do.

In fairness though, I think there's something quite specific going on here. The Justice type stuff would doubtless sound great in a club, and even sounds a zillion times better when you stand away from the speakers. It's really in a studio close monitoring environment that you get the full 'having your brains sucked out of your ears' feeling.


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696236 - 11/01/09 01:19 PM
99% of the contemporary pap, nobody is going to listen to, 5, 10 or 20 years from now. It won't stand the test of time. Want to make a bet?

There simply are no Jimmy Hendrixes, Bob Marleys and Miles Davises around anymore - leaders who moved music forward and beyond the prevalent stereotypes. That's the real problem with popular music. Over-compression and a generally crappy sound are only some of the symptoms, but not the causes for the disease.

I know that's a broad generalisation, but these days, younger audiences don't much appreciate class and originality. The record labels couldn't care less for "art" anymore either. Rather, they want to make a quick buck, and cater to the juvenile, instant-gratification crowd. Apparently, 14-year old girls are the demographic with the greatest buying power. Go figure.

Things will only change, if and when the global mindset changes. As long as we glorify consumerism and superficiality in all areas of life (of which music is a reflection), western popular music will remain on the downward trajectory that began in the mid 80s.


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #696240 - 11/01/09 01:45 PM
No one's going to take that bet Tui, because it's never been the case that much more than 1 or 2 per cent of any pop music would stand the test of time. even in The Sixties

I think I've raised this point before, but have you listened to Dale Winton's run downs (runs down?) of histories top twenties on Radio Two? There seems to have been at least as much samey guff swamping the charts as everyone competed to cash in on the sound of the latest beatles record or whatever.

I think the way that rubbish bands are able to market themselves now may be masking the difference between the good and the duff a wee bit. For example, if all you did was read reviews and check out listings and billing statuses, you would be excused for thinking that a bunch of lyrically artless joy division copycats that I don't even need to name are as good as a genuinely kicking and alive rock band like the Kings of Leon. You would also be excused for thinking that great and countryish songwriting from Midlake was some kind of weird art-music experiment.

For some reason, all I can see in my head is a room with lots of Crash magazine journalists on one side and lots of Mojo journalists on the other side, shouting at each other forever.

Which is not a vision I need haunting me on a sunday afternoon...

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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molecular
member


Joined: 13/12/03
Posts: 699
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: IvanSC]
      #696243 - 11/01/09 01:55 PM
Quote IvanSC:

us oldies who were brought up on stuff wot sounded close to real.




that might be more concise than you realise. I think there are actually plenty of people on this forum who think that 'sounding close to real' is still a goal for producers like yer Justice.

But it wasn't really a goal for Spector, and it wasn't a goal for Jack Nitszche a lot of the time, and it was even less of a goal for Moroder... I suppose it became fashionably relevant for a while in the nineties... but really, why sound real when you have an infinitude of other sounds to choose from?

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Tui
active member


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Loc: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: molecular]
      #696259 - 11/01/09 02:29 PM
Quote molecular:

it's never been the case that much more than 1 or 2 per cent of any pop music would stand the test of time. even in The Sixties




Not at all. A great number of CDs that still find buyers are derived from the enormous back-catalogue of the 50-70s. There are entire record labels, such as Rhino Records, that market nothing but reissued music.

Many young people wouldn't know about those record sales because they never buy music from that period.


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #696329 - 11/01/09 05:04 PM
It is indeed true that a great number of records from the past still sell today. My point was that this doesn't mean that a great *percentage* of the records from the past still sell today. Alongside all of those great records were a lot of s**t, frankly. It just gets forgotten about because nobody buys it anymore. Exactly the same will be true of today in years to come.

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696334 - 11/01/09 05:19 PM
I did get your point. However, my point is that the percentage of recent, contemporary music that will stand the test of time will be minuscule.

10 or 20 years from now, we will count the number of compilation albums featuring "That Great 90s Sound" or "That Great 00s Sound" by one finger of our hands.


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molecular
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Tui]
      #696352 - 11/01/09 06:07 PM
In that case, I accept your bet!

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Tui
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696358 - 11/01/09 06:26 PM


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696505 - 12/01/09 09:35 AM
Bets, bets..what happened to good old bartering?



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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Syncratic



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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696530 - 12/01/09 11:07 AM
Haha, any opportunity to use the new gif


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thejazzassassin



Joined: 11/04/06
Posts: 429
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696564 - 12/01/09 01:08 PM
Sorry to set off on a very slight jaunty tangent, but..

Quote JamesSimpson:



Tim public school westwood. If i wanted to know a 50 year olds opinion on the latest hip hop record id ask my dad.

I just refuse to believe that Tim Westwood can be at all genuine.




A lot of people forget (or perhaps just don't know) that Tim Westwood is one of the fathers of hip-hop in this country. During the mid eighties he was importing all the records he could, championing the fledgling British hip-hop scene and putting on legendary events such as his Sunday all-dayers up at Notting Hill. You may think he's 'public school' and irrelevant (you think Radiohead are irrelevant? Or insert any other of the many many excellent bands that have paid for their education) but he has certainly paid his dues. For someone to stay at the top of their field for over 20 years is someone you don't want to write off. I don't really like listening to his shows but I respect him for being, for want of a better word, a pioneer.


The crushing of dynamics in modern records is sad but it's in response to the downloading of music and the medium through which this music is played. Sadly 90% of people aren't aware of the difference in quality or sound of compromised downloads OR could not point out the differences between a Timbaland mix and an Everly Brothers mix. Radio plays a big part, no-one wants their song to be quieter than the next. Hip-hop and dance music are, on the whole, loud music meant to be played as loud as possible. Some producers have taken this to the next level and have lost some of the subtleties of a mix by squeezing the life out of everything.

Also don't forget that people seem so intent on making the vocal the loudest part of a track by a country mile. I know that 90% of people only listen to the vocals, but we're in danger of losing the intricacies and interplay of a great backing band / track.

There is no subtlety in smashing the bejesus out of everything, but it's what's in vogue at the moment - and hopefully in some far-off day it will end up sounding as out-of-place and 'naff' as some of the less desirable eighties production techniques do now.

--------------------
www.mikeandersonmusic.co.uk


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Chris No.1



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Posts: 232
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: feline1]
      #696684 - 12/01/09 07:23 PM
Quote feline1:

you think not?
Symphonies only generally have 4 movements anyways
( = half a dozen actual tunes, the rest is all "orchestration" and texture, and would be scored out by the composer as bookwork)
i.e. what I'm saying is that if you wake up with half a dozen melodies and the ideas for texture in your head, you're about 80% of the way there
(sits back whilst dozens of proper classical musos spit their coffee over their screens)

Getting back to the loudness wars:
one f*cking annoying problem is that the EU have now put a cap on iPod output volumes, which means loudness-warred pop mixes are still easily audible,
but if I put a classical track on my iPod, even at full volume, I generally CANNOT HEAR the quiet bits if I'm outside with ordinary earbuds - I can't turn the iPod up loud enough.




But then again making a decent symphony is something quite different. Any decent symphony from classical and romantic era's have long melodies barely ever repeating with lots of texturing

Really? There always was a limit but how much quieter are they now??

I have just purchased a new ipod from the UK and I have LOTS of classical and commercial stuff to go on.


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Chris No.1



Joined: 12/09/08
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Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696773 - 12/01/09 11:38 PM
Was listening to a 10 yo album in the car today

Turned on Radio 1 and WOOOO had to turn way down, for several reason,

1). Too loud
2). Annoying Music
3). AUTO CHOON!
4). Did I say it was annoying music?


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Stevedog



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 3002
Loc: Mercia
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #696836 - 13/01/09 05:26 AM
What the situation needs is, someone to slip through the loudness net that becomes the album that everyone wants to emulate and that isn't squashed to hell...

Iv'e always mixed pretty loud, but only on the loud bits....However, the levels used today, as an average, are just becoming ridiculous. To my ears there is an average rms level, which, if you push past it means you end up having to trade off part of the overall sound to allow the rest its head. In the pop field as already noted, it's the vocals that tend to sound way bigger than the backing. I listened to a, albeit nicely produced C & W album, the other day. The vocals and soundstaging just sounded ridiculous though. To achieve the requisite levels, it now sounds like the vocalist is singing out of the soundhole of the acoustic guitar. Overall, the EQ of the album hangs together well, but they have gone with so much upper mid, to up the volume level, that the imagery is completely screwed. The effect is, to my ears to totally destroy even the illusion of any sort of actual *performance*. The irony being , most of the backing was cut live...

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog


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The Dr.



Joined: 22/01/09
Posts: 4
Re: Loudness Wars - Pointing the Finger at Demacio 'Demo' Castellon new [Re: Peter Conz Connelly]
      #700634 - 22/01/09 09:01 PM
sigh......It's called Evolution. Just like everything else music Evolves. Once the people, there for the industry, gets tired of over compressed Music it will evolve into something else.

Not that there is anything "wrong" with Compressed Music. It's just that this seems to be the "trend" right now, and it tends to be how most mainline producers are producing there work.

It would be nice too see a nice happy medium. No over compression and not to have compression phased out to the point where the sounds are jumping out so much that it makes it almost impossible to find a comfortable volume setting.......The next evolution....

But what do I know I'm a newbie


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