My respect level has hit rock bottom with this geezer!!! Here are some quotes from a recent SOS interview with Demacio 'Demo' Castellon, the git!!!

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

"Of course it can cut the dynamics on some records, and you definitely get fatigue listening to records that loud for a long time. But it's what people want to hear."



Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

What an arse!

When i first read this the word I used was much stronger...

but even if he started it...why did everybody follow??!!

...still...

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11011110110010101111 - 110000001111111111101110 - 101110101101
Hexadecimal binary coding anyone?

Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...

Quote Korff:

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Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...

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As though splicing tape in the 60's wasn't?

I'm not saying it wasn't!

Just read the box-out and you'll see what I object to.

I'm simply making the point that what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.

Quote Parker Fly:

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what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.

---

Yep for autotune and splicing. Good stuff has been done with both.

But I wouldn't put loudness-maximizing nonsense in the same category.

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

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I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

And I thought it was Charles Dye...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

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I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!

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Yep, it was at this point I couldn't be ar$ed to read any more! It really wound me up!!!

Although I like the track, I don't think the mix / production to "4 minutes" is that good. I'm confident I could achieve better results in my less spectacular and humble studio.

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Maybe we all need to shout a bit louder about the loudness wars to get our point heard...

lol

or should that be "chuckles quietly" , for more dynamic range?

I just read the article. I don't agree with the sound, but these folks are clearly mixing for a certain market niche. As he correctly points out, not all music belongs in this style of bit shredding loudness. Why is there even a war anymore? It's about as loud as it can get isn't it? Just worry about making something good. Has anything suffered because it is NOT mixed to maximum warp? A good song NOT become a hit because it's too quiet? I am curious.
People need to get some perspective I think... probably starting with the "record company" folks who allegedly fuel the "war" part of the equation.

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David

Sorry - but while I hate the loudness wars, you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?

But yes, if you ultra-compressed John Martyn's Solid Air or any Pink Floyd record I would be really bleedin' annoyed!

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www.youtube.com/leonardngmusic

I'm all for compressing hip-hop to the max. That way, when you turn it down to an inaudible level, it stays turned down and doesn't jump up and bite you.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

my first post on the forum

i also noticed that the guy described timbaland as the mozart of our times or something.

hes been very successful but i can think of other albums etc produced in recent years that to me, are far more unique and absorbing and still commercially popular.

im not rally a hip hop/r n b fan but to me - his stuff all sounds kinda the same to alot of other urban tracks.

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www.bondedeblog.blogspot.com
on mp3unsigned.com

every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it

That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it

---

Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind. Why should we all conform to the methods used by people such as timaland/kanye ect? The grandad comment is a little odd! I'm a 27 year old male with a passion for music of all types ranging from classical to metal, hard rock, girly pop and even the odd bit of timbaland!!!

Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!

I can't help wondering if all that expensive outboard gear is really needed. These highly paid mix guys claim it is but I have a sneaky feeling most people would struggle to tell the difference between the song mixed using high end outboard or a liquid mix/UAD in the box system! Especially when its all converted down to AAC and played back via the good old ipod!

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www.bradleysteenkamp.com

Quote Steve Hill:

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That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.

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it was indeed indisputably thoughtful, and was in no way offensive - grizzled knopfler wannabes have dealt with much worse in their time i'm sure

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers ... just go and make music the way YOU want it

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LMAO -- hah hah mike oldfield. Nasti!

I agree with your final conclusion... making music is what its about... or recordings of music in this context; "Sound on Sound"

But... it is a discussion... no harm in that. You have to know if you read a thread about "Loudness Wars", "Mac Vs PC", "Reaper Vs the world", "Analog Vs Digital", "ITB Vs a mixing desk" etc etc... it's going to be a mud fest to a certain degree. Why else would you look?

But I think Gelled_Fringe has a valid point; it's modern music and it's loud. You have to p**s off the previous generation somehow or you are not trying hard enough... Elvis and the Beatles etc were annoying travesties, an affront to real music.. blah blah blah.

The Mozart bit was a bit much... not a real comparison there if ya ask me!

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David

Quote Bradley:

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Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind.

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That's the bit I find most at odds with the general opinion on these forums- where's the open mind with regards to loudness? Even the thread title reads like a Loudness War Neighbourhood Watch manifesto. 'Pointing the Finger at...' Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?

Edited by adam miller (18/07/08 02:27 AM)

Quote Korff:

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Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...

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Is EQ? Reverb? There's nothing honest about records and there rarely has been.

Quote:

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you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?

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I am really wondering how you got from A to B here. Why should electronic music lack dynamics?

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gentle robot - chapel hill rock band

The more I think about it, the more the loudness war doesn't bother me. He is right, a lot of music and the simple age we are in kind of requires maxed masters. Accept it already.

Quote adam miller:

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Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?

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The Who were/are loud. Led Zeppelin were/are loud. Black Sabbath were/are loud. Jimi Hendrix was loud. I've seen all these guys live.

Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.

You might as well start with a thousand years of musical history and say hey, let's just do it all without using the black notes on the keyboard, that would be clever.

Club music is "loud" because it's shoved through big speakers. It is not loud in any recognisable musical sense.

In that sense, it is of course patently absurd to call it "loudness wars".

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.

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Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

I dislike inappropriately smashed records too- but 'loudness' has a place.

Quote adam miller:

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Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

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if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.

personally, i can't think of any instances where full on loudness is appropriate for more than three or four minutes at a time. and i'm into metal!

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

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if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.

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I dont like over compressed records, but your argument isnt true. The voice complaining about it is tiny. Most people dont care.

I'd say most people don't understand. They find some music physically tiring to listen to but don't understand why. That's not the same as not caring.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.

Quote snipsnip:

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I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.

---

This is the most depressing thing I've read in such a long time, I don't know where to begin...

Somebody please shoot their mouth off so they can lock the thread!!!

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

its just a state of fact. We dont need to turn this into another dull thread on the virtues of mp3's (or lack of), but I do stand by the point that a lot of people wont 'care' about music being compressed too much.

Im 24 and Im talking about people my age.

the generation below will presumably care even less as they have even less to compare it to?

Personally I think it's A+R and record companies that want loud records so that they jump out at you when they're on the radio. I think consumers are mostly indifferent.

Quote Steve Hill:

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The Who were/are loud. Led Zeppelin were/are loud. Black Sabbath were/are loud. Jimi Hendrix was loud. I've seen all these guys live.

---

Indeed they were- and when I introduced my late teenage nephew to Led Zep's music (he'd been listening to a lot of later rock music but never heard them) his first comment (after sitting there in shock for a few moments) was

" [ ****** ] hell- the loud bits are really loud, aren't they ? Why don't modern bands sound like this ? It's AMAZING !"

So not all the younger generation are after heavily compressed music- and a lot of them have never really heard anything else, poor little things. And that's a shame...

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote Steve Hill:

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I'm all for compressing hip-hop to the max. That way, when you turn it down to an inaudible level, it stays turned down and doesn't jump up and bite you.

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Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad!

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You'd be surprised, most here don't care what spotty teenagers spend their pocket money on. At any rate, listening to over-compressed music is probably the least of their problems, compared with sensory numbness, social indifference and political apathy.

Quote snipsnip:

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I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.

---

Sadly, if this is the case then there is no need to have a technical side for the audio industry.

Run it all through a comp/limiter and sod the dynamics.

The technology side of our industry strives to record and deliver music in a manner that is not just technically accurate but is conducive to the listener and provides interest and longevity.

Anything that is creative and regarded as art has a solid and technical foundation as it's basis. It then transgresses from there into an a piece of 'art'. Without the technical aspect of this the final product would be both inaccurate and aesthetically displeasing.

All the grand artists were extremely proficient at the technical side of their craft and without things like form, perception etc the piece of art would not induce any emotion or thought and would bore the viewer, much like music that is narrow banded and offers no dynamic range.

The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.

What is the point of using good musicians who have excellent and emotive playing skills and capturing those emotions both accurately and dynamically to then have it mauled to death?

Even with people using hip hop or dance as a premise for this form of compression and negating the use of professional musicians need to come up with a new excuse.

Some of today's hip hop uses some excellent musicians and even where it's simply been plug n' play compositions we are still afforded singers with excellent voices and delivery.

Why destroy that with stupid thinking?

Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.

Square wave compression is not about loudness and has no place in our industry.

Even the arguments for mp3, limited bandwidth streaming etc are weak. A piece of music that has been produced well with emphasis on maintaining the rich tapestry of dynamics will translate equally well across any mediums in any format.
Even with the limitations that exist today the music will still shine through and keep the listener interested.

If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

It's like a snowball effect, if you want a chart topping hit in the current climate it has to sound as loud as the track it replaces. I got handed a demo the other day and it read (hand written!) on the sleeve please turn up and listen to this demo loud, it sounds better!


I dunno what point im trying to make here just thought i'd share!

Quote Zukan:

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Quote snipsnip:

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If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.

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Well put.

Someone can play about with crayons and a colouring book, and never understand what it is to stand humble before say some Monet water lilies.

But it's their loss if they choose to define their horizons and aspirations in those terms.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Well if your suggesting all music thats technically well produced is equivilent to a masterpiece then i guess your analogy has merit.

otherwise it sounds a little bit like the hyperbole you'd find in the mail....

Quote snipsnip:

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its just a state of fact. We dont need to turn this into another dull thread on the virtues of mp3's (or lack of), but I do stand by the point that a lot of people wont 'care' about music being compressed too much.

Im 24 and Im talking about people my age.

the generation below will presumably care even less as they have even less to compare it to?

---

Dude, I'm only 27, although like yourself, I guess, it's not the first time my opinions have been mistaken for being of the grandad camp...

I didn't mean to dismiss your post, I just really fear that you are probably right.

However, in the few years I've been a member of this forum, this is the bazillionth time this thread has happened...

Perhaps it would be better if we had a thread discussing what constructive things people can do so that production doesn't go down this hole, instead of endless threads arguing over who is to blame?

e.g.

Last time this discussion happened somebody linked to THIS

which I immediately submitted my own band's album to...

re: youtube,

time was not so long ago when streaming any music online was for the super rich - now I can do it through my phone on a boat in the Minch if I want. Why? cheap as chips bandwidth.

So maybe look back over how mp3 downloads pushed their way in... surely it won't be more than 5 years before you can do the same with 16 bit / 44.1 khz ?

Obviously, its not going to happen if nobody tries to make it happen, but a combination of persuading people why it would be worth it, and then making sure its there for people when they do want it ... well, it'll happen.

So, stop crying, I say. Just do it. (no Nike swoosh smiley, so y'all can imagine one..)

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote Squiresy91:

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It's like a snowball effect, if you want a chart topping hit in the current climate it has to sound as loud as the track it replaces. I got handed a demo the other day and it read (hand written!) on the sleeve please turn up and listen to this demo loud, it sounds better!


I dunno what point im trying to make here just thought i'd share!

---

I suspect that they were trying to suggest that you 'rock out' to it rather than suggesting it actually sounds better loud. Bad choice of words I would say.
Regardless of the mastering rock music should be played loud. Isn't that the law or something?

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Edited by Handlestash (18/07/08 01:26 PM)

although i'll hasten to add I agree with zukan.

the difference is im talking about the consumer. of course those of us who are passionate about music will always strive for quality, and rightly so IMO. But from my real world experience this doesnt translate down to your avaerage listener... at this juncture in time.

Quote Handlestash:

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Isn't that the law or something?

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It is the law, yes.

I'd always thought that brickwalling rock music was so that you could hear everything without having to turn it up loud, hence it being the production choice of your american 'rock dad' nickelback fan.

I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.

I hasten to refer you to my previous, more important, post.

H.

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

I don't quite get how this has much to do with the "philosophy of recording", or something. Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.

times, they are a changing...

Quote molecular:

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I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.

---

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on the forum! Spot on dude, spot on! What an image! A dinner party load of 40ish beige nigels discussing how 'rockin' the new Nickelback record is and putting it on during desert but just loud enough so it won't wake the spawn.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Is it really a war? really...?

Production varies for different music. Some music suits heavy compression, Waves L1 is a bread and butter tool for me at the moment. I sometimes use it on mix stems, and also the master bus as well. Because it suits the music I'm writing/producing at the moment.

This doesn't make me anti dynamics.

Often in this debate people seem to point a finger of blame at the end consumer, with their awful mp3's, computers, and other silicon based wizardry.

If anything a growing majority of consumers are better educated, and have a greater understanding of technology these days. I high quality VBR mp3 is clearly significantly better than your old walkman, and you regularly see people walking down the street listening to music on decent headphones such as HD25's.

The fact the music services such as iTunes now offer high quality downloads is a reflection of this.

I don't think people mind turning things up, nor do they mind dynamics.

I've got plenty of modern, well produced albums which have dynamics. No they probably aren't 'mainstream', I dread to think what a Coldplay album sounds like . With the internet, the amount of music available to us as consumers has hugely increased, its a huge ocean out there - most of it is pretty rubbish, but there's good stuff going on as well.

-

What does annoy me though, is 'remastered' recordings of 'classic' albums.

L

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P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers.

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Decrepid? Mike Oldfield worshipper? lol. Tool... Don't log in if that is all you read... or grow up and accept that opinions are valid.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to...

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I'm not a grandad and you don't know what type of music I listen to so stop making a fool of yourself by reacting as if you know me. I am heavily into the club scene, past and present, love RnB, etc, etc... blah de blah, but I simply do not like the fact that this loudness war is happening when it clearly isn't necessary. It's not down to a specific style of music, it's happening all over and getting out of hand.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it

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I do make music how "I" want to, when I'm not producing it for other people. I am entitled to a moan or express an opinion but I certainly don't deserve a predujiced and arrogant fool blurting crap about me when he clearly knows sod all about who I am and what I do... and I'm not alone blaming Demo about this loudness wars, if you read the article... he admits he had something to do with it and also admits it becomes fatiguing to the ear, which clearly is unhealthy.

If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote PWGLE:

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What does annoy me though, is 'remastered' recordings of 'classic' albums.

---

That annoys me also — but maybe, in ten years or so, they'll start releasing 'Digitally Remastered! Extended Dynamic Range!' versions of some of the perfectly good albums that have been completely ruined by unsympathetic mastering in the last few years?

Good grief... that might mean that a remastered version of, say, Californication might sound better than the original!

Quote Handlestash:

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Quote molecular:

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I divert the finger of blame away from us youngsters, we just turn it up on the hi-fi 'cause we is rebels and doesn't care about the neighbours!!!! It's the 'slippers and Q magazine' crowd that want to feel like they're rocking out even when they're not.

---

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on the forum! Spot on dude, spot on! What an image! A dinner party load of 40ish beige nigels discussing how 'rockin' the new Nickelback record is and putting it on during desert but just loud enough so it won't wake the spawn.

---

LOL!! That is pretty good! Nickleback... why god why? Spot on! O how I loath that kind of crap


I found the link to http://www.turnmeup.org/ very interesting. Thanks for that... I'd forgotten about that site. I enjoyed all the technical links... I like to know what I am doing. Bob Katz rulz... again!

--------------------
David

I applied for some material to be certified by them, as to be honest what is 'loud' i was curious. Anyways they never got back to me.

L

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P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P

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is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P

---

is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?

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I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P

---

is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?

---

I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P

---

I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...

What actually is the matter with people, can everybody please take a chill pill, or something?

Thai and Cambodian soldiers were pointing guns at each other today, over a dispute concerning a Buddhist temple... Oh man.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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If this wasn't a respectable forum, you'd be in trouble lad!!!!

P

---

is that a threat? on a public forum? you are threatening me?

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I don't threat, I tell and react as it is. What sort of response did you expect to your aggressive attack and abuse?

If someone spoke to me like you did face to face, I doubt very much I'd respond politely and quietly move on. Unless you have an anger management problem, you just don't speak to people in that way... it's not right!

P

---

I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...

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Bullying? LOL. You're the one with a chip on your shoulder. Grow up, boy

Anyhow, let's get back on topic, keep it on topic and prefereably friendly.

P

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Quote Tui:

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What actually is the matter with people, can everybody please take a chill pill, or something?

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Yeah, I know it's flipping annoying. Some people just don't know how to behave and act maturely.

P

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

I stopped reading these "Recording of" articles years ago. My BS detector alarm sounds off to often. Waste of print all of them. Do some readers take it all in? Seriously?

I'm also having to take therapy for having seen Devo in those stupid hats all over again - thanks for nothing SoS.

Do an article on the Furby-gurdy, that's fun. Overly self-important producers polishing their little rockets in print is not.

Jim

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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I think this is outrageous. Someone of your years should know better than to resort to bullying tactics on an open forum. I wonder what Steve Hill will make of all this...

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I think you're behaving like a spoilt child. You start randomly insulting people in a scattergun manner for no good reason and then feign surprise when they dare to defend themselves?

You don't have to stay here if you don't like it.

But it would probably be best if everyone calmed down (thank you, Tui).

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (18/07/08 08:06 PM)

I openly apologise to everyone, including Mike Oldfield.

Quote Zukan:

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The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.

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Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully. Compression and distortion of various types and implementations is instrumental to the sound of many musical genres- I just can't understand the sudden discontinuity that makes aggressive limiting unacceptable and other forms of distortion kosher.

Quote Zukan:

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Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.

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All those years that vinyl mastering engineers were trying to figure out the best way of cutting their records hotter than anyone else?

Quote Zukan:

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If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.

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With any luck, youngsters today can use their ears and decide for themselves! I doubt there's ever been such a concentration of literature, audio magazine and mainstream newspaper articles, online forum discussion, music technology lectures and 'pro-dynamics' groups as there is now to get the 'LOUDNESS IS BAD!!!' message across to potential young producers. I feel like the pro-dynamics lobby shout so loudly about the subject that it actually becomes impossible to have a reasoned, reasonable debate about the place of hard compression and limiting within popular music.

Quote Tui:

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Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.

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I think you should read some Adorno (the name should be unpleasantly familiar to anyone who's had to study him as part of a music degree!)- These exact sentiments, expressed 70+ years ago.

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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I openly apologise to everyone, including Mike Oldfield.

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Including Mike Oldfield may be going too far!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Personally I love some of the modern club stuff that uses compression and loudness to the max. I think the stuff from Justice and Sebastien, and modern electro house records sound fantastic...put against some of the best records of the eighties and nineties they acheive levels of dancefloor devastation I would have thought where immpossible. I am not really a hip hop or pop fan, but I love the energy they have and sometimes I cant believe the fantasic full frequency range smack that comes out of my speakers...

I think unfortunately it is just a case of a 'young' trend being over-aped and abused.

However this happens all the time, perhaps anybody else here can remember when everyone went 'electric', then gawd 'elp us started using drum machines and synths. Remember the outrage the DX7 caused?

Anybody on here harking back to the good old days has simply forgotten the carnage 'new waves' in popular music create. I remember Keith Tippet in an interview recalling how he was forced to eat home grown potatoes after those fab four reduced music to four chords on a guitar.

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Poor thing is, it's pointless discussing it, as there's nothing you do to change the situation, unless they bring strict laws into force regulating RMS levels on a commercial CD master, which is about as likely as me getting a number 1 in the charts....

Waste of breath.

At least things can't get any LOUDER.

I think the digital revolution partly encouraged the loudness wars with its old flaws. A large proportion of people still wrongly aim to hit near 0dBFS at every stage (tracking, mixing, mastering).

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http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community

Quote adam miller:

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Quote Tui:

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Over-compression is just another byproduct of the commodification of music, along with data compression, simplified and relentlessly repetitive rhythms, melodies and harmonic structures. Music has become the ultimate throwaway, consumerist, meaningless product. How meaningless you know when you listen to the majority of kids who seem to think that recorded music should be free.

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I think you should read some Adorno (the name should be unpleasantly familiar to anyone who's had to study him as part of a music degree!)- These exact sentiments, expressed 70+ years ago.

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I had to study Adorno at school, all I remember is that I was bored to tears (incidentally, my music degree involved, you know, learning how to play several instruments). However, if you think that Adorno was talking about dynamic and data reduction on digital media 70 years ago, I have to say, whatever it is you are smoking, it's working.

Quote Chaconne:

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Remember the outrage the DX7 caused?

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No, because there wasn't any. The DX7 was the first affordable and widely popular digital synth, and everybody loved it. For keyboard players, it was an absolute must-have item like no other synth before or since.

I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public. As with so many products, if they don't want something, then it won't be made.

Maybe this guy can take credit for setting the trend but he can hardly be held responsible for sustaining it.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Ken Long:

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I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public.

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Are you suggesting people pay for this stuff?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Quote Ken Long:

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I think the only culprit you can realistically point the finger at is the buying public.

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Are you suggesting people pay for this stuff?

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How naive of me indeed

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I'm All Ears.

As folks have pointed out much of the 'square-wave sound' is genre specific. What goes around comes around....

The youngsters in this house seem perfectly capable of identifying a squashed sound and appreciating it in context for what it is while fully enjoying other types of audio presentation.

Ride the wave fellas, be creative where you can, things will change.... quite possibly you could be the one to lead the way.....

Loopy

Quote snipsnip:

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Quote onesecondglance:

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if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.

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I dont like over compressed records, but your argument isnt true. The voice complaining about it is tiny. Most people dont care.

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my point exactly. the voices of the complainers are loudest because no one else understands the issue or cares enough to rebuff it (with the exception of this thread - this is pretty much the first time i've seen people defending hyper-limited music...)

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote adam miller:

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Quote Zukan:

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The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.

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Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully. Compression and distortion of various types and implementations is instrumental to the sound of many musical genres- I just can't understand the sudden discontinuity that makes aggressive limiting unacceptable and other forms of distortion kosher.

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Square wave compression is a destructive process that cannot be compared in the slightest to applying distortion to a sound.
If you understood the dynamics and process then you would not make this remark.
We are not talking about compression in the analogue domain whereby the headroom can be compromised with harmonic distortion.
We are talking about the limits being exceeded in the digital domain, and there is nothing musical about exceeding this ceiling.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

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Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.

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All those years that vinyl mastering engineers were trying to figure out the best way of cutting their records hotter than anyone else?

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But without compromising the headroom.

I think you are misunderstanding the differences between compression in an analogue domain and the finite restrictions of the digital domain.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting your mix as loud as possible.
But compromising the sonic integrity of the mix and narrow banding it till there is no dynamic movement is not technically or aurally sound.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote adam miller:

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Quote Zukan:

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If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.

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With any luck, youngsters today can use their ears and decide for themselves! I doubt there's ever been such a concentration of literature, audio magazine and mainstream newspaper articles, online forum discussion, music technology lectures and 'pro-dynamics' groups as there is now to get the 'LOUDNESS IS BAD!!!' message across to potential young producers. I feel like the pro-dynamics lobby shout so loudly about the subject that it actually becomes impossible to have a reasoned, reasonable debate about the place of hard compression and limiting within popular music.

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And exactly what is the place for exceeding the digital ceiling compression in any genre when clearly every single piece of data points to it being destructive, compromising all dynamics, narrow banding and tiring the listener?

This is a music tech forum. We try to educate here not misinform.
We try to give as much technical information as possible in the right context and help people who are trying to learn.

I would never in any of my classes teach my students that digital clipping, over compression within the digital domain and narrow banding dynamics is a good thing irrespective of whether it has genre merit.

You can deliver a loud and compressed mix without compromising any of the above and actually offer more to the listener than the square wave compressed version.

You also fail to realise that almost every argument for square wave digital compression comes from misinformed listeners or beginners to this industry.
Not from industry professionals.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

There are those who think that creationism should be taught in schools, so that children are presented with a 'balanced debate'...

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote Zukan:

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Square wave compression is a destructive process that cannot be compared in the slightest to applying distortion to a sound.

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For the sake of clarity, when you say 'square wave compression' I'm taking it to mean brickwall limiting and digital clipping- is this correct? These processes alter the dynamic envelope of the sound, distort the waveform and add additional harmonics. You might hate the sound it makes and the destructiveness of the process, but it is directly comparable to other forms of distortion!

Quote Zukan:

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We are not talking about compression in the analogue domain whereby the headroom can be compromised with harmonic distortion.
We are talking about the limits being exceeded in the digital domain, and there is nothing musical about exceeding this ceiling.

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That's entirely a matter of opinion, especially when the limits are being exceeded by a highly experienced mastering engineer working in sympathy with a production that's been planned with loudness in mind from the very start.

Quote Zukan:

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And exactly what is the place for exceeding the digital ceiling compression in any genre when clearly every single piece of data points to it being destructive, compromising all dynamics, narrow banding and tiring the listener?

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Where is this data? Why is Radio 1 smashed to within an inch of its life, Radio 2 less so and 3+4 barely at all? Have you considered that different sounds appeal to different demographics and suit different musical contexts? My argument is that hard limiting and clipping can contribute towards the overall aesthetic of a record- it's not necessarily just a process that's slapped on at the end out of 'fashion' (although there are of course plenty of records where it is).

Quote Zukan:

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You also fail to realise that almost every argument for square wave digital compression comes from misinformed listeners or beginners to this industry.
Not from industry professionals.

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How about the legions of industry professionals making and releasing records covered with limiting and digital clipping? If they genuinely found it as offensive as you clearly do, why do many of the biggest industry players continue to put out loud, dynamically flattened records? I refuse to believe it's all down to mindless trend following and insecurity. If Rick Rubin decided he never wanted to release another clipped, limited record he could easily do so without having to answer to anyone else.

Quote adam miller:

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Er, how about- 'square wave compression can sound exciting and engaging in the right context'?- and in actual fact takes a great deal of technical skill at both the mixing and mastering stage to pull off successfully.

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Not an unreasonable point, though I've yet to encounter a context where massively distorting an entire mix is successful as anything but a novelty/production trick for a single track on an otherwise well presented album. For that matter, yes, doing it well is difficult and if done appropriately and in a balanced context it does have its merits but therein lies the rub. The vast majority of brick wall limiting and extreme compression is apparently done by people lacking even the basic skills required to make the recording in the first place let alone the more advanced understanding needed to break with the conventions of 'good' sound in a way that sounds like anything other than crap.



The thing I find most amusing in that article (apart from the guy's incredible ..er...self confidence ) is that anyone would actually want to claim personal responsibility for starting one of the most musically destructive and technically flawed trends ever to hit popular music recording. It may say a lot about him as a producer but perhaps not what he'd like to think it says.

Quote adam miller:

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records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

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By extension of that argument, could it be said that the now unfashionable and politically incorrect quick slap round the back of the head and a 'grow up halfwit' is more appropriate to the short attention span of most people these days, than a long, reasoned discussion about the pros and cons of different approaches?

(Not picking on you personally Adam, it applies on all sides of an argument, you just happened to make the point that got me thinking. )


There's so much more to the whole discussion of people's shortening attention span, 'dumbing down', devaluing of culture (and many other things) and disposability of just about every aspect of modern life and how they all affect music, art, culture, consumerism, manufacturing, design, etc., etc., than can ever be covered in one discussion, let alone in a single forum thread. The reasons for so many people perceiving music as free/disposable/valueless are far more wide ranging and complex than just simple stand alone things like generational differences, cost of manufacture/distribution, talent (or lack of), etc.. The whole loudness game and increasing disposability of music are just parts of the much wider changes in society/lifestyles. I don't like music becoming throwaway and the associated devaluing of the skills, talents and years of accumulated experience but I don't see any one person or group changing it no matter how loud they shout. Only time will tell which trends are with us to stay and whether listening to bursts of distortion and square waves will be an embarrassing blip in musical history or, depressingly, the shape of things to come.

Quote adam miller:

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For the sake of clarity, when you say 'square wave compression' I'm taking it to mean brickwall limiting and digital clipping- is this correct?

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Adam, he means what he says, not some alternative meaning you are trying to superimpose on his words.

I can compress the hell out of say a distorted guitar and record that sound and make it sound good in a record. All at the analogue stage. Analogue distortion in its place is harmonic, pleasing, and useful. Start doing that stuff after the A/D converters and it is brutal, ugly, noise.

As for pandering to short attention spans, until around the mid-1960s record labels seldom released any song exceeding about 2m 30s, believing nobody could listen to the stuff for much longer (and of course playing to a radio market).

Don't confuse radio compression for mastering compression/limiting. They are quite different. I could do a completely uncompressed master of a delicate acoustic number, and what radio 1 would do to it is make it sound as "loud" as the hip-hop number they played next to it... because they have to, to retain their audience in noisy cars on motorways etc. They will do this regardless of what the ME does, so a decent ME will serve the song, not the putative broadcaster. There's no such thing as a "radio-friendly mix".


There's quite a few people contributing to this thread who seriously know what they are talking about. You could learn a lot if you opened your mind and stopped trying to defend the indefensible from (as far as I can see) a position where your technical armoury in support of your case is non-existent... and always will be.

Edited by Steve Hill (19/07/08 01:20 PM)

Quote adam miller:

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Why is Radio 1 smashed to within an inch of its life, Radio 2 less so and 3+4 barely at all?

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Where do most people listen to the radio? In the car, a noisy environment. So a decreased dynamic range makes sense for this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure if you transmit a signal which has a larger rms (louder) you don't need to use so many transmitters, and therefore save cost.

I've always thought this was the reason for Radio 3 having awful reception.

What really winds me up in classic fm listeners, they think they know classical music, but that station is just a pop channel really. The compression is ridiculous, dynamics in classical music are hugely important.

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P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Quote 0VU:

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There's so much more to the whole discussion of people's shortening attention span, 'dumbing down', devaluing of culture (and many other things) and disposability of just about every aspect of modern life and how they all affect music, art, culture, consumerism, manufacturing, design, etc., etc., than can ever be covered in one discussion, let alone in a single forum thread. The reasons for so many people perceiving music as free/disposable/valueless are far more wide ranging and complex than just simple stand alone things like generational differences, cost of manufacture/distribution, talent (or lack of), etc.. The whole loudness game and increasing disposability of music are just parts of the much wider changes in society/lifestyles. I don't like music becoming throwaway and the associated devaluing of the skills, talents and years of accumulated experience but I don't see any one person or group changing it no matter how loud they shout.

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You are absolutely correct. Singling out over-compression, and using it for a starting point for an entire argument about current popular music, is pretty futile. As we've seen, some people actually like that sound and find it aesthetically pleasing, and nothing is going to convince them otherwise. It all boils down to taste. Personally, I haven't bought a charts-topping album in a very long time, simply because there isn't anything around I haven't heard done better, 20 years ago. The fact that many modern productions sound harsh, scratchy and lack dynamics, fades into insignificance, given their apparent lack of artistic substance. I would include my own productions in this critique - I'm not sure I would pay money to listen to my own music either.

Every decade some spotty yoofs pick up the available technology - carefully engineered to produce a pristine sound - and say 'cant you make it louder / or you know 'less clean'?


"One can have to much of a good thing - still more a loud"

- on the reception of Beethovens Fifth symphony.

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Then why 90% of the time I play a squashed to hell version of a mix side-by-side a logical RMS one to a band [played to equal levels of course] they choose the un-distorted one?

Quote archdake mkII:

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Then why 90% of the time I play a squashed to hell version of a mix side-by-side a logical RMS one to a band [played to equal levels of course] they choose the un-distorted one?

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It's the 10% we're talking about - I think.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Great the way that the boring old gits shouldered everyone who didn't agree with them out of this thread. Go moderators!

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Stuff what I done

Quote Sle:

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Great the way that the boring old gits shouldered everyone who didn't agree with them out of this thread. Go moderators!

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Would you care to explain that remark? Preferably without resorting to any more insults.

Quote Sle:

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Great the way that the boring old gits shouldered everyone who didn't agree with them out of this thread. Go moderators!

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I typed out a really witty response to this, but after re-reading it, on balance, I decided against posting it.

It was really quite funny though. And not even slightly boring...

If you read the first/second pages, Gelled_Fringe and a few others were making a case for the other side, and were basically shouldered unceremoniously out of the way.

If people take light-hearted ribbing like "Old git" and some references to prog-rock worship that seriously, it comes across as a bit odd to me.

I remember reading the review of the L3 in SOS http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug05/articles/wavesl3.htm , and while some doubts were expressed, objectivity was kept throughout..

That's just my opinion though, and clearly it seems I must apologise for my offensive remark.

EDIT: Review of the L3, I mean, not the L2..

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Stuff what I done

Edited by Sle (19/07/08 07:03 PM)

I see it as a case of people whose arguments were comprehensively demolished, and chose to stop posting.

Maybe you have some problem with other people contributing to a discussion who might have a different opinion to you?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Slightly on-topic..

My friend has recently been mastering some of his mixes for Myspace (for his clients) - and he was saying that he was getting his mixes up to 0db.

Surely he means Peak and not RMS?

I thought the average indy / modern rock band was around -6dB RMS - or have things got worse?

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Mac user; Logic and ProTools systems.

Quote 0VU:

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There's so much more to the whole discussion of people's shortening attention span, 'dumbing down', devaluing of culture (and many other things) and disposability of just about every aspect of modern life and how they all affect music, art, culture, consumerism, manufacturing, design, etc., etc., than can ever be covered in one discussion, let alone in a single forum thread. The reasons for so many people perceiving music as free/disposable/valueless are far more wide ranging and complex than just simple stand alone things like generational differences, cost of manufacture/distribution, talent (or lack of), etc.. The whole loudness game and increasing disposability of music are just parts of the much wider changes in society/lifestyles. I don't like music becoming throwaway and the associated devaluing of the skills, talents and years of accumulated experience but I don't see any one person or group changing it no matter how loud they shout. Only time will tell which trends are with us to stay and whether listening to bursts of distortion and square waves will be an embarrassing blip in musical history or, depressingly, the shape of things to come.

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This is precisely why I pointed Tui towards Adorno- people had the same concerns about the commodification of music, the decline in listening skills and the banality of modern music years ago. The scapegoats change (clearly Adorno wasn't talking about digital clipping), but the arguments remain startlingly similar.

Quote Steve Hill:

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Adam, he means what he says, not some alternative meaning you are trying to superimpose on his words.

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Sorry Steve, I haven't come across the expression 'square wave compression' before- I'm not trying to superimpose anything on Zukan's words, just to ensure we're talking about the same thing.

Quote Steve Hill:

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Analogue distortion in its place is harmonic, pleasing, and useful. Start doing that stuff after the A/D converters and it is brutal, ugly, noise.

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What if the music I'm making is brutal, ugly and noisy? I'm familiar with the sound of these digital processes- i just believe that like analogue distortion, their use in the right context and in the right hands can work in sympathy with the aesthetic of certain productions (and in a way that can't be achieved in the analogue domain).

Quote Steve Hill:

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I could do a completely uncompressed master of a delicate acoustic number, and what radio 1 would do to it is make it sound as "loud" as the hip-hop number they played next to it... because they have to, to retain their audience in noisy cars on motorways etc.

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And Radio 2,3 etc don't? Broadcast multiband compression doesn't just make the thing louder, as I know you're well aware- in a critical listening environment I find it far more offensive than the digital limiting and clipping processes used in mastering. Different stations have a different sonic fingerprint to fit with the intended demographic- and the same is true of music mastering.

Quote Steve Hill:

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There's quite a few people contributing to this thread who seriously know what they are talking about.

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I completely appreciate this Steve, and believe it or not I agree with the majority of opinion that smashing the dynamics out of music for the sake of it is a mindless, negative thing to do. By the same stretch, I have to reconcile it with the fact that I love the sound of many records that have been smashed into the digital end stops- and I believe that they'd sound inferior for their intended purpose without having been through that process. Given the sound of a great swathe of current releases, I'd have to conclude that many engineers, producers, musicians and ordinary punters feel the same way.

Quote Steve Hill:

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You could learn a lot if you opened your mind and stopped trying to defend the indefensible from (as far as I can see) a position where your technical armoury in support of your case is non-existent... and always will be.

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I don't really see this as a technical issue, but an aesthetic one. My opinion might appear completely unpalatable to you, but if the sound of contemporary popular music is anything to go by, I'd hope it's not one I hold in isolation.

Quote adam miller:

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I don't really see this as a technical issue, but an aesthetic one. My opinion might appear completely unpalatable to you, but if the sound of contemporary popular music is anything to go by, I'd hope it's not one I hold in isolation.

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It's not. Without getting all worked up about other peoples preferences I share your sentiments about the aesthetics.

To me compression, limiting, distortion, MBC etc is more about a sound than perceived loudness and I'll put that in front of any technical issues anyday. On indivudual instruments as well as a full mix I'll sacrifice dynamics for energy,aggression and attitude anyday if I feel it gets me where I want to go.
Do I care about what others do? Not really. If I don't like it, I simply won't bother listening to it. Dynamics or not.
and I do believe the same goes for the average music listener. Fatigue? The average listener walks around with crappy earplugs and 128 Kb/s mp3s on full blast and they aren't exactly complaining are they? They either like it or they don't. Simple.

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Phatcat Studios--"I love the smell of Genelecs in the morning"

This thread is pointless, its argument and tension for the sake of it.

You would argue even if you agreed on some points.

Some people in this thread I've got a great deal of respect and time for, I'm more than happy to challenge their points of views and idea's, but I know they are built on a considerable amount of experience and expertise. At the end of the day, you can't argue about that. Some of these people have being doing this for quite a while.

As an observer I just think Its a bit sad to be honest,

Even if you don't agree with someone, you can always learn from them.

L

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P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Quote Celsius:

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28 Kb/s mp3s on full blast and they aren't exactly complaining are they? They either like it or they don't. Simple.

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Odd how nearly all illegal downloads are via things like bit torrents; they are VBR 196kbps+ mp3s. The Digital to Analogue convertor is going to have a larger bearing on the sound than, the mp3 in question.

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P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Yup.I agree. Not much point in discussing personal preferences. As for myself I'm not really too concerned about arguing any "points".Certainly not the ones I agree with. Just my personal opinion based on my own experience and observation and last but not least, my own personal preferences.

What's sad? That people disagree? When it comes to music people will always disagree.

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Phatcat Studios--"I love the smell of Genelecs in the morning"

I think it's time everyone who's contributed to this thread so far gives the person sitting next to them a hearty slap on the back.

The last three pages have been great reading and show the intelligence (and entertainment value!) of some of those who frequent this forum.

WELL DONE YOU!

My small contribution is... look at all the kids playing music on their mobile phones on speaker-phone. Now apart from only not confiscating their phones because I like not being all stabbed, this shows how much of a minority issue the whole debate is. Despite my interest in music and recording, I know few people who place importance on a decent playback system. Maybe I should get new friends...

Quote Celsius:

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What's sad? That people disagree? When it comes to music people will always disagree.

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Agreed!

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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My respect level has hit rock bottom with this geezer!!! Here are some quotes from a recent SOS interview with Demacio 'Demo' Castellon, the git!!!

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

"Of course it can cut the dynamics on some records, and you definitely get fatigue listening to records that loud for a long time. But it's what people want to hear."



Cheers,
Peter

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It seems many are getting worked up about one production technique out of many. Anyone remember Hugh Padgham and the gated drums of the 80s? Never was my cup of tea but that was one style among many - and many engineers/producers used this technique. Gradually new innovations in technology and new production values meant there was no place for it anymore in most compositions or mixes.

I feel the same way about brickwall limiting but I think its important to keep the nature of contemporary music in context. Never has there been such a crossover of acts and fans from one genre to another. Sure, you still have you hardcore niches but there's also the kids who listen to Hip Hop as much as Rock as much as Dance. This is unprecedented and perhaps by increasing perceived volume, a degree of consistency can be maintained across the genre spectrum.

I myself despise it for all the reasons you mention but especially because I am often forced to use it when a client decides the mix isn't as loud as what's being played in the charts. And I do agree with some that compression and limiting can be used effectively as an effect but that's besides the point for me.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Yeah, diversity of opinion isn't a strong point amongst the wielders of power here though, it has to be said. Other viewpoints, unless extremely eloquently and carefully put, are railroaded out of existence in a lot of cases.

The magazine itself does NOT fall into this trap at all, as demonstrated by the link in my previous post. People should be able to come here and debate, not fight against a prevailing mindset that represents none but a few "old hands".

Again, I must state that this is purely my own opinion and is not intended to cause offence..

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Stuff what I done

Ah yes, but with age comes experience (wisdom is debatable ). I'm very grateful the members of this forum are here to assist me when I have technical issues because I know many on here have been in the situation once, if not many times before. They will have troubleshot the problem to death and can therefore speak on authority.

If an argument gets heated, I just always try to remember to write as if I was there in the room with that person, asking them for their time.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Sle:

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Other viewpoints, unless extremely eloquently and carefully put, are railroaded out of existence in a lot of cases.

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What's wrong with eloquence, or placing one's words carefully? How would you like it if, conversely, the "old hands" were to refer to the younger audience as "pea-brained, drugged-up yobos", and to budding electronic musicians as "Little losers who sit in their mum's basement and play around with cracked copies of Cubase on beige Pentium 4 boxes"? Would you like that better?

Read the start of the thread. Sychophancy is annoying at best.

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Stuff what I done

Quote Sle:

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If you read the first/second pages, Gelled_Fringe and a few others were making a case for the other side, and were basically shouldered unceremoniously out of the way.

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I have as you instructed reread the start of this post, and the first thing that struck me as anything other than either a joke or a well put point was this:

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad!

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which is not exactly the way you quote him above.

This guy was clearly up for a barney, and I don't think you need to worry that he was 'shouldered out of the way'.

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

The interesting thing is the body of work that's behind some of those who are voicing their opinions. Call it sycophantic if you will, but there are people here that have rather more experience in multiple genres rather than a Bebo or Myspace page and their work speaks volumes. It doesn't mean their opinion is worth more, but it's based on a solid foundation of dealing with the artists and labels that are possibly aspirational for at best for others.

"Body of work"

Come on then? What is it?

I'll stand by my music, though I don't try to tell other people I can produce theirs.

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Stuff what I done

After posting 1040 posts, you still haven't noticed that some people here have sold millions of albums, of just about any genre, in just about any country? Blimey.

Quote Tui:

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After posting 1040 posts, you still haven't noticed that some people here have sold millions of albums, of just about any genre, in just about any country? Blimey.

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Excuse me, I think you're a little confused.

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Stuff what I done

Quote Sle:

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Quote Tui:

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After posting 1040 posts, you still haven't noticed that some people here have sold millions of albums, of just about any genre, in just about any country? Blimey.

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Excuse me, I think you're a little confused.

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No, he's not. Reading between the lines in posts by these people would give you an indication of the kinds of people / bands / labels they've worked with. A high post count would usually indicate that a user may have been around long enough to see some.