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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #651461 - 29/08/08 11:45 AM
Quote Handlestash:

Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway?



It's a long standing myth probably stemming from seeing some engineers hanging around with top players and artists in plush, moodily-lit studios.

For the rest of us, however, 90% of the time (or more) is spent in less salubrious premises having to be nice and friendly to talentless tosspots who are blaming their lack of playing ability, songwriting skills and total lack of rehearsal on you for making them sound like shite (which will invariably be followed by a dispute over the bill!). That was my experience when I ran a studio a few hundred years ago and which was why I got out of it. Even when working in 'top' studios, it wasn't that different - just nicer gear and surroundings ... and worse tea!

Same doing live mixing - mixing a band at the dingy 'Dog and Duck' is a far cry from Wembley!!

Doing what I do now is highly enjoyable (if a bit mundane sometimes) ... for a certain percentage of time. A lot of it is filling out spreadsheets, etc., documenting what my client is getting. Hardly rock and roll!!!

--------------------
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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #651462 - 29/08/08 11:52 AM
Quote Handlestash:

Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway? Particularly in regard to modern music and the kids who listen to it.




i should think they assume that "sound engineer" is a fancy name for producer (= Dr Dre).

plus for those of us who failed miserably as a creative part of the industry - whether through laziness, or otherwise (was always my achilles heel) - the idea of just being in a studio all day sounds better than working in an office.

i count myself lucky that i posted here regarding the issue before i paid a vast sum for a recording course. sure, it would have been fun, and i would have been able to run Pro-tools at the end of it, but it wouldn't have gotten me a job. because there aren't any jobs out there.

maybe we should put a big notice up on all the forums saying to do a search before posting? it would avoid having the same old bunfight again and again and again...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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TurboD



Joined: 22/06/07
Posts: 271
Loc: UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #651565 - 29/08/08 05:35 PM
Quote onesecondglance:


i count myself lucky that i posted here regarding the issue before i paid a vast sum for a recording course. sure, it would have been fun, and i would have been able to run Pro-tools at the end of it, but it wouldn't have gotten me a job. because there aren't any jobs out there.




May I repeat; I am on a course, and I have a very good job in a very reputable studio. There are always jobs there if you're open-minded, good at what you do and very hard-working - even if it's not in a recording studio. Surprisingly, not everybody on a sound technology course wants to be holed up recording bands.

My course has taught me an awful lot of theoretical background that I would not have learned in a studio. Yes, it may not be immediately relevant, but I feel much more informed and more confident in the studio environment for knowing these things. It also means I can fix things.

However, even more important than that is that I have gained literally hundreds of contacts through the institute, many of which have led to paid work which gives me not only experience but reputation. I also have the option of working in a whole bunch of different fields.

I DO understand why going straight into a studio at 16 is a very good idea and that learning through experience is the best way forward. So why can't you do both; a University education with its benefits, accompanied by work between times?

--------------------
"He that hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." - Robert Browning


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coojuice



Joined: 29/10/07
Posts: 371
Loc: Scotland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: TurboD]
      #651614 - 29/08/08 09:23 PM
I really cant believe that there is such negativity towards the courses and learning methods mentioned in this post, especially as this is the SOS forum we are on is it not?

If all of these courses are of no use or a complete waste of time then why do they exist?

And more importantly, if indeed they would be of no advantage to anyone why would the SOS magazine include 10 pages of tuition/programming and course adverts within their magazine each month?

I think what we all need to consider here is that it's 2008 and the industry doesn't work like it used to. Yes maybe 10 or 20 years ago it was advisable to dedicate your time to an employer as the "Gofur" in the hope of getting somewhere but times have changed and technology is evolving rapidly so modern music making techniques now require people that can carry out these processes both quickly and efficiently. That is why these courses exist.

And from an employers point of view today you can't seriously say that if they were to advertise for a job vacancy that they would offer the job to the person without the grades over the one with? That's not business like at all. We all know a bit of paper is worth nothing but the stuff printed on it is the currency of ANY job in todays world, that's just the way it is now!

The simple fact is that anyone wanting to learn how to become a producer, engineer etc needs somewhere to learn. If there were no courses where would people learn? At a studio? This I find very hard to believe. Studio time is precious enough to anyone involved so the last thing anyone wants is to spend more time on a project than is needed, time is money.

I'm currently doing an HND in Sound Production at College and can honestly say that it's the most fun and interesting thing I have ever studied. I've been introduced to multitrack recording, sequencing, mixing, editing and live recording, most of which i've never tried before. Aside from the hands on stuff i've also been learning about acoustics and working within the creative industry which i've found extremly interesting. One thing I would also like to add here is that not once has anyone at College told me that there are lots of job opportunities for you once you complete your course, infact it's quite the opposite. Most of my lecturers have said, yes, there are jobs within the industry but it's up to YOU to find these jobs, they don't come looking for you.

I never went into my course under the illusion that it would guarantee me a job in the industry once I complete it. It's the same with any course, this only gives you a helping hand to obtain skills required for working within a given area. The only reason I went into my course was actually to learn these different techniques so that I could try my hand at producing some tracks of my own. If anything I would say College has opened a whole lot of opportunities for me as it's introduced me to more options avaliable to me than I thought. I can also honestly say it's not been a waste of money either. My course tuition fees are funded by the SAAS so i'm actually getting all this knowledge for free! You can't get much better than that folks! Being a student also lets you get a discount from various studio equipment manufacturers and companies so this again has saved me money for creating my own little studio which I was going to do anyway.

Anyways, this post is getting long. I thought I would just give an honest opinion as i'm currently a student myself. I must add that i'm not a typical student, for one i'm probably a bit old...

I'm a 27 year old married home owner who is a Mechanical Engineer to trade with a part time project worker job just now.

Infact looking over that in writing i'm probably the complete opposite of a typical student! Who cares? I'm doing this because I enjoy it and if I make some cash then that's a bonus.

My main objective is to create a few dance tracks that I can play when i'm djing and have at least one person dance to one of them. I'm easily pleased!

Each to their own and feel free to correct anything i've said, I don't hurt easily

--------------------
easily pleased...


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651618 - 29/08/08 09:37 PM
fun and interesting maybe.

THERE IS NO WORK. As is said countless times - how many people do we need to run the 30 or so full time professional studios in this country?

You CANNOT earn £25K in the music industry unless you have a great CV. Heck, if I only earned £25K, with my mortgage and outgoings, I'd go back to maths.

There isnt work for 4000 grads per year....

Please read some of the previous posts thoroughly. I'm an employer - and I (obviously) work in the industry. Music tech grads are of no use to me. And Abbey Road. And Carling Academy live venues. etc etc etc. Protools isnt hard to use. Neither is RADAR. Or Cubase/Logic. Or an SSL. OR an 88R. Or a ruddy AWS. And as I've said before - it isn't even really the quality - its the shear numbers of you.

The courses exist to make money - not produce useful sound engineers etc etc. Crikey - we just don't need 50,000 unemployed graduates of music tech. The qualifications are of no use whatsoever. The PEOPLE are what is useful.

I just had a brief interview with a young lad today about doing freelance work for me. He seems a great guy. Did a degree in architecture. I liked him, seems like a people person.

Thats is what matters. The skills are piss easy to learn .... this is not a difficult job - (neither for the most part is it glamourous).

Forget it - I'm clearly floggin a dead horse here....

Don't do music tech courses if you want a job in music. Do them because you wan to. Fine - no worries. But don't be under any illusions of what they can do for you - they can do nothing.


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* User requested
...




Joined: 15/02/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #651622 - 29/08/08 09:45 PM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

Yes maybe 10 or 20 years ago it was advisable to dedicate your time to an employer as the "Gofur" in the hope of getting somewhere....




Is a 'gofur' a bit like a gimp, but in a bear suit?


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jellyjim
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651628 - 29/08/08 09:59 PM
this thread again, so repetitive, but of course .. we have hopes and dreams

but surely it is obvious, more graduates than jobs

.

but here's an original contribution to these threads ...

given the bashing that the tech courses get let's hear one of the institutions defend themselves? perhaps even in a formal way, a SOS article or something ... come on tech course leaders, your courses get an absolute drubbing here from industry professionals, ex-students and amateurs alike

so, defend yourselves .. or is it all indefensible as some suggest?

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Edited by jellyjim (29/08/08 09:59 PM)


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Aural Reject



Joined: 02/05/03
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Loc: Lancashire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #651634 - 29/08/08 10:05 PM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

And more importantly, if indeed they would be of no advantage to anyone why would the SOS magazine include 10 pages of tuition/programming and course adverts within their magazine each month?





Um, because it's a business and the advertising revenue is important?


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651644 - 29/08/08 10:22 PM
"If all of these courses are of no use or a complete waste of time then why do they exist? "

A very good question. Not that long ago, before music tech courses even existed as higher education, only about 10% of people went to university in the UK. Some pure music degrees had a small technical content, and things like the Surrey Tonmeister course evolved.

Tony Blair then decided everyone shall have medals. Or, specifically, decreed that 50% of people will go to uni. A-level grades were diluted to achieve this (such that many unis no longer regard A-levels as trustworthy). Money was thrown at the (largely imagined) "problem" in the name of education, education, education.

People did not want to read serious academic subjects. They needed the bribe of fun (as well as time-honoured perks like sex and drink) to turn up. Otherwise targets would not be met.

What were once vocational subjects, learned on the job (and therefore dependent on employers recruiting only enough people to fulfil expected future demand) were academic-ised. Who cares if there are no jobs, we'll hit the targets!

And then there was money. To attract state funding, students had to be attracted. More boxes with flashing lights were bought. Commerical colleges also sprouted all over the place. Nobody was doing a whole lot throughout this period of fervent activity to train competent lecturers, although there are some.

Booting failing students off courses, especially foreign ones who pay higher fees, became taboo. Lose a student, and you lose some state funding. Honest academics who tried to do this got themselves overruled by byzantine university politics. All Will Have Prizes: the government has spoken. And therefore you have to do something really spectacular not to get a degree. Hence employers treat all such degrees with contempt, however hard you worked for it. The currency has been devalued, in Zimbabwean proportions.

So money, basically. And too many people with vested interests unwilling to point out the blindingly obvious fact that the emperor has no clothes.

Sadly this phenomenon is by no means confined to music tech courses...

Why should an SOS website host this debate? Well I didn't start it, and anyway I am no more SOS than 99.9999% of forum members. SOS gives us a space to exchange views, and I'm not aware that its advertisers have ever sought to stop us doing that.

But if I had anything to do with SOS editorial policy, I'd probably be broadly in favour of giving people reasonably honest, accurate information before they made decisions which could cost them thousands of pounds and maybe waste years of their lives, all based on false hopes.

I genuinely think what is happening is a national scandal.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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coojuice



Joined: 29/10/07
Posts: 371
Loc: Scotland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: jellyjim]
      #651647 - 29/08/08 10:31 PM
I know a lot of more experienced people here have a different opinion than mine and that's perfectly alright with me. You obviously did things differently to get where you are today and fair play to you.

I'm just giving a point of view from someone on a course just now and I personally have found it to be of great use to me and not a waste of my time or effort. I may have different expectations from others who join courses but I can't speak for them.

I think jellyjim's idea could finally put this debate to an end...

Quote jellyjim:



given the bashing that the tech courses get let's hear one of the institutions defend themselves? perhaps even in a formal way, a SOS article or something ... come on tech course leaders, your courses get an absolute drubbing here from industry professionals, ex-students and amateurs alike

so, defend yourselves .. or is it all indefensible as some suggest?




This would make this topic more of a learning curve for us all

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easily pleased...


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molecular
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651657 - 29/08/08 11:32 PM
Quote narcoman:

The skills are piss easy to learn .... this is not a difficult job








--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651658 - 29/08/08 11:37 PM
I'm not sure it will - there are a few academics who usually chime in on these discussions, but maybe they too are wearying of it all now.

It's good you enjoy your course, but let's be clear: there's a shedload of public money going into teaching people how to have an interesting and rewarding hobby, in nearly all cases.

If I proposed setting up an Oxford degree course in railway modelling with public funds, how far do you think I would get? I could possibly credibly argue that 0.5% of graduates might, like Eric Marshall, end up with a viable tourist attraction for their efforts and this could make a valuable contribution to our "heritage industry". Do you think this would work?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5640
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #651661 - 29/08/08 11:48 PM
Steve, you may jape about these things ... but after a long chat with a very stressed sister of mine who is on the accreditation board for a certain well-known west London uni, you might stop making jokes like that and just weep for the future instead ...

Back on topic and responding to the original post, it sort of _has_ to be the old guard who are 'anti-course' as they are the last few people who had formal engineering education and can make the correct assessments. THAT's the whole point!

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


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A Non O Miss



Joined: 07/02/08
Posts: 927
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dave B]
      #651665 - 30/08/08 12:23 AM
The "old guard" is mumbo jumbo. I agree with all of them and I'm in my 20's and had no formal training once so ever in music. However I have been through Uni and can say that pretty much regardless the course it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Good life experience, but a lot of money to learn things usually easier and better learned on your own.

Everyone is getting upset at their stance and how passionate they are in their opinions. What people are failing to realize is that they are the ones showing the most concern and care for the younger generation. Somehow a lot of people have this belief that it is the other way around, that instead they are fearing their jobs or positions?? HAHAHA

The schools and government want money, so they are not going to paint the full picture or overly emphasize the poor state and really nor should we expect them to. The educated people here are trying to make it blatantly obvious to anyone who may be browsing these forums of all the risks associated with these courses just to make sure they understand what they are getting into. These are important life decisions that can waste many years and lots of money that can be better put towards other things. That is all that can be done. They can warn and offer advice and then hope that smart decisions are being made.

What we shouldn't do is look upon them as the "old guard" or miserable old gits who are more concerned about protecting their buts. We should thank them for their candor and bluntness and put extra weight in their words.

If you don't like what they say then simply use it as motivation to prove them wrong. But be prepared for the old I told you so if it doesn't turn out.

People get warned all the time about smoking, the only benefit is early death. Yet there is money to be made so cigarettes are still produced and people still smoke them. This is the World we live in.

Edited by A Non O' Miss (30/08/08 12:58 AM)


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1615
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651674 - 30/08/08 03:32 AM
If the Old Guard, as so eloquently put, have their traditional formal education and experience to draw from, then they are entitled to make an informed argument. But students should also be allowed to make their informed arguments without being basically called hobbyists.

People rattle on about human skills, and how they're much more important than the degree. Well, I can say quite truthfully that for most people at uni, the degree is for 90% of the time the lowest priority. This is even true on an academic music course as much as a limp-wristed media studies course.

What's more, aside from the solid theory that one (should) leave with, my insitution allowed its students to become fluent in complex bartering for equipment, appeasement of staff members, bureaucracy and trouble-shooting. Furthermore, some of the limitations induced levels of creativity of epic proportions. It took me over three months to arrange for a 24-channel live recording system for use over last christmas, which involved insurance, transport, booking (read: bartering), purchase-orders, repair, failsafing and not a few gentlemen's agreements. Another student managed to get his recreation (score/foley/dialogue and all) of a Hollywood battle-scene into the office of its Hollywood composer!

In the above respect, it is not at all what the institution teaches, but in what the student does for himself, in his own time, with good intentions and with the support of like-minded peers. That is what going to a good institution is about.

It would not have made any difference if my tutor hadn't worked with Abba, Culture Club or the Beach Boys. The same few people would have done their exciting things regardless.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651707 - 30/08/08 09:11 AM
I know no-one who's priority at Uni wqs nothing other than getting their degree. Those that didn't place it high on importance failed in the first year. I guess that's where the money grabbing Uni's have changed. It is no longer about education - none of this is the students fault. It's the way of the west.


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1615
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651729 - 30/08/08 11:09 AM
You miss the point, narc. The teaching was there for those that needed it. For entry into the second and third levels of tech, for instance, there was an mandatory introductory theory course. I got 87% coz I did my research at A level, but those who didn't have the theory on entry had that resource to improve.

My real point was the great things that happen when creative people get other people and things to play with, which, let's face it, you could not get on your own for the cost of a bachelor's degree.

(Nevertheless, it would be wrong for me to comment on the suitability of some students for any course)

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dave B]
      #651733 - 30/08/08 11:42 AM
Quote Dave B:

Back on topic and responding to the original post, it sort of _has_ to be the old guard who are 'anti-course' as they are the last few people who had formal engineering education and can make the correct assessments. THAT's the whole point!



I can't speak for the other old gits here but I haven't had ANY formal training.

What started off as an interest as a young teenager became a passion and later a career decision. Although I had a place at the Welsh College of Music and Drama, I turned it down to go down the road I had chosen because I knew that a formal qualification would be of no use whatsoever. Since that time, I have been in bands, done live PA work mixing for local bands, owned a professional studio, recorded crappy local bands, 'produced' demos, singles and albums for some promising and/or established local bands, written music for TV, done local session work for no-name bands, done London session work for some serious name artists (including playing on some successful singles and albums), written for SOS, taught at Gateway (RIP), designed the UIs for some fairly major products (that you have maybe bought/used), written their manuals and developed sound library for most of the major manufacturers. My current clients are nearly all major American manufacturers.

NOT ONE of these jobs in over 30 years has required me to show my qualifications ... EVER!! Which is just as well ... I don't have any!!

Edited by hollowsun (30/08/08 11:44 AM)


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #651753 - 30/08/08 03:25 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Since that time, I have .....



I should also add...

I started off with a basic knowledge, basic principles I'd learnt from books, magazines (such as they were back then - NOTHING like SOS existed ... neither did the internet of course) or catalogues and brochures, just looking at photos of front panels and figuring out how stuff worked and what the controls were for and/or just fiddling around with gear (sometimes in shops) ... then I acquired further knowledge through experience, watching (or working out) how others did it, through making mistakes (lots of them!!), through working with crappy gear and making the most of it and so on.

And this gradual acquisition of knowledge and the basic concepts over time and a broad range of gear and experiences gave me a more solid foundation than cramming it all at once because I had a chance to put each little nugget of knowledge into practice slowly and surely.

That's MY history - I am pretty sure the other old gits here have similar (maybe identical) experiences.

I think part of the problem these days is that some people want to know everything about everything instantly and look to courses to provide that. It doesn't work like that. You can pretty much learn how a car works in an afternoon but it doesn't mean you can drive one! Similarly, someone can tell you how a compressor works in an hour or less but it doesn't mean you could do a session and record a prima donna vocalist whose dynamics are all over the place (in that situation, a compressor may not be the answer - a diplomatic approach to dealing with the singer's performance technique might be a more appropriate solution!!). EQ is a simple concept as well - doesn't mean you can apply it tastefully. These all take time and experience to know. And even WITH years of experience, you're always winging it and adapting what you know - and sometimes breaking the rules - to suit any given situation.

--------------------
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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651768 - 30/08/08 04:51 PM
Quote thomomatic:

Red Bladder,

I like people with strong opinions and i don't have a problem discussing but i think you are very strongly opinionated in one side only. And nothing we say/ discuss/ argue in this thread will make you change your mind. If you think that there are plenty of jobs but not for the people who do sound engineering courses fine, be like that, i don't mind.





why the hell would he change his mind?? he's pretty much right.....


he's not ALWAYS right.... but in this matter his thinking has always been bang on the money.....

I have a PGCE cert ed.

i don't use it . I stopped teaching M-tech to students 7-8 years ago... when all that this thread is covering became blatantly readily apparent to me from that side of the lectern.


some jobs are just too hard to ethically self justify....


it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.




(oh , and this particular member of the old guard studied Electronics and Physics (B.Eng & B.Sc) in between abusing assorted instruments, gigging live, on both sides of the desk, working in assorted studio and broadcast situations , building the odd studio or three, working for various manufacturers, running MI retail operations, and doing a lot of other stuff besides..... even found time to get married and have 5 kids...)


max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #651772 - 30/08/08 05:21 PM
Quote Max!:

it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.



Ah! The mark of a true gentleman!!!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651776 - 30/08/08 05:45 PM
Hi Max!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #651785 - 30/08/08 06:47 PM
watchya daddyo...

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1615
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #651787 - 30/08/08 06:57 PM
Quote Max!:

it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.




Poetry.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9305
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #651877 - 31/08/08 09:45 AM
Quote hollowsun:


I can't speak for the other old gits here but I haven't had ANY formal training.





Yes, but you arrived here in some kind of a pod from Krypton.
I've seen you wearing the 'attire' so don't deny it.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651930 - 31/08/08 12:34 PM
Ok, guys i think you pretty much covered everything, but "the old guard" certainly know their stuff, have vast experience and i never disagreed on that respect. Also some of you studied as well, maths, physics, electronics. all good. i did study electronic engineering, but i was interested in recording bands and making every possible music, and i didn't have any clue about mixing desks, microphones, live sound, frequencies, principles of mixing, compression, reverb and the lot...And old enough not to be able to get a job as a teaboy in a studio...so what were my options? I love music and recording/ mixing so i wanted to pursue this career -even if it is difficult and not well paid at all, who cares- its what i wanted to do! (the only thing that should stop me is my talent or the lack of it, for pursuing this career path) and not some people engineers or not saying "no jobs! bad education go and be a boring accountant, that's what you deserve to be! " that's not the attitude guys!

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


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seejazz1



Joined: 05/05/06
Posts: 19
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651940 - 31/08/08 01:10 PM
I strongly agree with steve hill's earlier comment about 'we can all go to university'! As a secondary music teacher this is the bottom line - 'bums on seats to bring in the dough'. Just think about all the other dubious courses out there in 'universities' up and down the land. Tertiary education has been diluted for a political reason. I believe (some) music tech courses are a part of this.


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thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651945 - 31/08/08 01:23 PM
Also, knowledge and learning it is a continuous procedure, never ends. I would never claim that a graduate of any degree, academic or private, the best or the worst (SAE in my opinion) once he graduates, he knows everything! Certainly not. Every day i learn. the fact is that doing a degree helps you understand certain things and digest information about acoustics, electronics, and all that, like maths and physics that without a degree i would not be able to understand. even if i was reading magazines and books and everything else. We cannot dismiss education completely, simply in the basis that a certain government that was supposed to be "Labour" with social politics, in fact sells out on every aspect of our life! health, education, housing, everything is part of money making procedure and profit! we cannot simply say to people don't study its a waste of time. If we dont like it, we have the option to leave the country, start an armed revolution, or vote someone else that we think we trust. Steve Hill's post certainly is right 100% thats what happened to universities, from this government. It would have happened with any other government as well. But its all part of the problems of modern life and politics...

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651961 - 31/08/08 02:23 PM
Quote Zukan:

Yes, but you arrived here in some kind of a pod from Krypton.
I've seen you wearing the 'attire' so don't deny it.



I told you not to tell anyone Zuke. My cover is blown!!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 21830
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651970 - 31/08/08 03:27 PM
I think there are two very separate issues that are in danger of being confused and merged.

One is the notion that that some form of music-tech related tertiary education will lead, inevitably and with minimal self-effort, to a fantasic job in the music biz.

That is clearly utter nonsense, and is grossly misleading and damaging.

As has been pointed out, the number of annual course graduates exceeds the number of paying jobs across the entire industry by several orders of magnitude.

Of course, the very best one or two from each course may well find appealing work and do well -- the cream always rises to the top -- but most will be hugely disappointed and have acquired limited technical skills to help them secure work in other areas. Yes, they will have matured as a person and become more self-reliant, and may have developed some useful inter-personal skills along the way -- which is all well and good and a large part of the university experience -- but none of that is going to have much significance on a CV.

The other side of the coin is learning about music technology for the love of it....

In this case, though, we are esentially taking about hobbyists and the idea of running up the kinds of debt that most 'university' students do over three or four years just to further their hobby interests is, for anyone without millionaire daddies, utter madness!

It has been suggested many times here that anyone with a bit of intelligence and perserverence will gain more and spend less by buying some equipment of their own, experimenting, and reading the relevant magazines and books (which can be borrowed from libraries). I would support that argument as a far more cost-effective way forward -- but it does require self motivation to go out and find the information and advice for yourselves, rather than have it handed over on a worksheet.

Check out the background of most current pros, and that's what most of them did. Very few have had any significant formal training -- and while I am a strong supporter of formal training, there are very, very few univeristies/colleges to be able to do it right in a way that I would trust and be prepared to spend my own money on.

The only thing missing from this approach is the mentoring aspect and the ability to look over the shoulder of a pro -- but I'm not convinced in the ability of most colleges to provide this to any great degree anyway.

Instead, much can be gained from analysing how pros do their jobs. Watch Live from Abbey Road, for instance, and think about why they have positioned the musicians as they have, why they are using the mics they are and why they have placed them where they are... Forums are useful places to ask questions and gain advice too -- but be analytical about who is asnwering the questions, and weight thir opinions accordingly. Music tech education is worryingly close to the blind leading the blind in so many cases.

But as someone else has said, you should always be learning -- I certainly still am and I still love doing so.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651973 - 31/08/08 03:40 PM
God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Mike Stranks
active member


Joined: 03/01/03
Posts: 3746
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651983 - 31/08/08 04:18 PM
Wildly off post, but forgive me...

I'm with Hugh; I drive my family to distraction by watching music shows on the box to look at what kit is being used, how it's placed on stage etc. etc. It's when I start talking about the reverb and compression though that things get really tense!

What a SOG I am!


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 21830
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652005 - 31/08/08 05:47 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!




Oh dear -- I think I've just passed the Geek test!

Actually, I watch it for the music (loved Chick Corea last night) but couldn't help notice the cobniation of Shure SM7 and Royer ribbons on some of the guitar amps, or the 4038 ribbons over the Corea drum kit. And I'm still trying to work out what the organs were (one was Yamaha I think, not sure about the other).

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8516
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #652017 - 31/08/08 06:59 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote Steve Hill:

God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!




Oh dear -- I think I've just passed the Geek test!

Actually, I watch it for the music (loved Chick Corea last night) but couldn't help notice the cobniation of Shure SM7 and Royer ribbons on some of the guitar amps, or the 4038 ribbons over the Corea drum kit. And I'm still trying to work out what the organs were (one was Yamaha I think, not sure about the other).

hugh




Did you see the "Black Keys" one? I'm no fan of the band, but man - the vocals and guitars sounded amazing .... very "Toe Rag" if y'like.


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Joe_caithness



Joined: 30/07/06
Posts: 262
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652032 - 31/08/08 08:05 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!




what else is there to watch it for!?

me and my brother often discuss this over whatever crap is on that week!



can I play devil's advocate and suggest these two statements are as damaging as eachother, baring in mind I am an ex Musi c Tech student who know works in the industry using his skills:

"there are no jobs to walk into"

"doing a music tech course allows you to walk into a job"

as they are both obviously lies, and like I said, as damagin g as eachother.


Let me give you another case study:

a very good friend of mine (who i know through all my bands recent records being produced by me and him at his studio, incidentally), left Confetti after a HND, did pretty well, and while we was doing this, bought up the gear as he learned it, set up a studio in his house, gained a rep (please note, alongside his course). When his course was over he had saved money, bought gear, gained contacts, he then moved it out into a unit armed with these things:

technical knowledge of industry standard gear (education)
his own industry standard gear (off his own back)
contacts from the course (and work infact) (education)
contacts from his home studio (off his own back)


and he is after one year looking at setting up studio 2 at a new unit.

my point?

in a climate which is not friendly for "lets make a recording studio and try and make a living", he has used BOTH the traditional and educational to his advantage, and shrugged off the negatives of both..

I think my closing point, and hopefully what I tried to achieve by provoking this argument is that times are/will/have changed, and not always for the better, but blank, ill-informed statements from either side are inhenrinlty damaging as they are fustrating.

Like a lot of things, striking a balance is going to work best (although not often in "combination technology", but thats another nerd debate!).

And as a 21 year old who has a job within the industry (although a very new sector) off the back of using course learned stuff as a foundation, and the bulk off my own back, I am not feeling this "THERE IS NO JOBS" thing at all, and therefore am seeing a lot of blokes with beards not willing to adapt, whether this is true or not!


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652039 - 31/08/08 08:26 PM
Well - as an employer I'm TELLING you there are no jobs. It's just not open to debate. Of course there are a FEW jobs... stands to reason. but with over 4000 graduates a year there are no where near enough jobs to service the outflow. That's 4000 graduates in the UK alone. 30 professional studios don't need 4000 graduates per year. I've shown you how many CVs I've had this year. It's harder to make a living as a recordist than as a musician. MUCH harder.

To say you're "Not feeling it" isn't relavent when you DO have a job. You are one of the lucky few. No beards here - but I work within the employment sector of the industry. there just aren't loads of jobs. There aren't even four hundred new posts a year. 50,000 people chasing VIRTUALLY (there ya go - i've reworded it for ya!!) no jobs. when a marketing student leaves work, you can bet that well over half will get a job in a related sector. Or a law graduate. Or accountancy graduate. Or Mech Engineer, Civil Engineer (nearly 100% rate in that one!!) or computer programmer (again near 100%).

The figures I have seen (and that the music tech colleges will not tell you) is that fewer than 5% find employment in the sector. Not surprising when the whole of the industry is less than 20,000 strong.... and that includes the marketeers and executives!!


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Jack Ruston



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Posts: 4515
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652043 - 31/08/08 08:53 PM
Joe your mate didn't get an existing job, he set up his own business.

Lots of us do that. Some succeed, some don't. All sorts of reasons why.

The thing is though that this approach doesn't suit everyone, and its a very different path to the more traditional one of learning 'under' a more experienced engineer.

If anything your example shows that there are no jobs, because your mate, who clearly from what you've said can do a decent enough job, had to employ himself.

J

--------------------
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6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
Posts: 16
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652045 - 31/08/08 09:16 PM
An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.

The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.

some students take the course as an interesting side course to more 'academic' qualifications others are passionate about it from the outset and might combine the A level with 'Music A level'.

some progress to Further education and choose a very generic uni course (some because they haven't really decided what they want to do with themselves yet).

Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.

You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.

Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.

One of the biggest problems I see at A level is the quality of tuition. There are many institutions who offer the teaching position of a tech course to a traditional music teacher with no studio experience! through sheer ignorance. The exam boards even run courses to try and get lecturers up to speed. like staying one lesson ahead of your pupils this can't be good and only adds fuel to the fire. and yes I do know Joe satriani has talked about staying one lesson ahead when tutoring Steve Vai but thats different!

There is still a lot of scope around the set specifications to enthuse and educate students, supplying them with valuable and valid skills, that can be applied to many job definitions not just studio engineer.

Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.


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hifistud2



Joined: 12/02/06
Posts: 795
Loc: Near Sunderland, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: 6strings1cable&1amp]
      #652085 - 01/09/08 12:05 AM
Quote RMarshall:

An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.




and a riposte from a studio owner and A Level Music Tech examiner...

Quote:

The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.




The old scheme did not - it barely scratched the surface and was diluted by being under the wing of the pure Music course(s). It majored on outmoded and (too frequently) incorrect information, and, in some cases, was examined prescriptively in an industry in which there are no prescriptive routes to success (in recording).

Quote:


Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.




And should already be making the tea at the local studio, getting as much live experience as he can, and be soldering cables and repairing amps...

Quote:

You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.




I'd suggest that the number of CVs that those of us who might (only might, mind) be in a position to offer a job (maybe once in ten years) offers the alternative view - that students do think their degree/A Level will fast track them.

Quote:

Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.




What pathway? It simply lumps them in with the however many thousands who have graduated this year!

Quote:

One of the biggest problems I see at A level is the quality of tuition. There are many institutions who offer the teaching position of a tech course to a traditional music teacher with no studio experience! through sheer ignorance. The exam boards even run courses to try and get lecturers up to speed. like staying one lesson ahead of your pupils this can't be good and only adds fuel to the fire. and yes I do know Joe satriani has talked about staying one lesson ahead when tutoring Steve Vai but thats different!




Oh, hell, yes... I taught MT in a secondary school, as a bought-in consultant (who also happens to be a qualified teacher), and the school simply wouldn't wear the expense - and I was not charging the earth - simply supply rates. The trad music staff were clueless. Utterly.

Quote:

There is still a lot of scope around the set specifications to enthuse and educate students, supplying them with valuable and valid skills, that can be applied to many job definitions not just studio engineer.




Hmmm... I'd argue with that, too. The basics are not there (or are not examined), and re-education for folks is the order of the day.

Quote:


Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.




Never going to happen, unfortunately, as schools will take a piece of paper over 30 years of experience, IMHO.

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narcoman
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Posts: 8516
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652087 - 01/09/08 12:18 AM
Full Sail?

Ruddy hell, probably the most laughed at course on the planet!!


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