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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652108 - 01/09/08 07:08 AM
Let's be realistic. 90% of the places training for A-levels do not have the people or the equipment to do so, and even if they do have some equipment, it's stretched too thin for students to get enough hands-on experience with e.g. trying out compressor settings or whatever.

As for CVs... on the one hand you can't blame students for trying to make themselves look as good as possible. But despite that, I read loads of the things and say to myself "I'm sorry, but this guy is evidently clueless". Then I reflect on how many years and how many thousands of pounds have gone into achieving that result.

Of course the cream will rise to the top. But then what? I know some really good, experienced engineers who are out of work.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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The Red Bladder



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: 6strings1cable&1amp]
      #652124 - 01/09/08 08:21 AM
Quote RMarshall:

An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.




Funny, when I taught children, I called myself a teacher. When I then went on, several years later, to talk to students at a university, I called myself a lecturer.

Quote RMarshall:

The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.




All work processes take place behind closed doors. That does not mean that we make A-Level courses out of, say, glass manufacture, or printing, or operating a JCB.

Quote RMarshall:

You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.




With the massive exception of the Surrey Tonmeister course, every single person I have ever met that is working successfully in this industry dot not study Music Technology.

There are three owners of commercial studios taking part in this debate and not one studied MT or even music. All the A&R people I have ever dealt with, studied either business economics or music.

Quote RMarshall:

Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.




Rubbish of the highest order. Full Sail is worse than the SAE.

Quote RMarshall:

Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.




May I be the first to pull your chain.

To Max (on agreeing with me) - Steady on there big boy! You'll be shaving next!


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hifistud2]
      #652136 - 01/09/08 09:08 AM
Quote hifistud2:

Quote RMarshall:


Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.




And should already be making the tea at the local studio, getting as much live experience as he can, and be soldering cables and repairing amps...






I'm not sure about the repairing amps bit but, being able to demonstrate an interest in the subject beyond what is covered in the A level course is vital.

The real purpose of education in this business is to fill in areas of knowledge that are difficult to learn on the job. That's why most successful people have qualifications that aren't specifically music technology qualifications. Something like a physics degree will teach you all the basic knowledge you need - it is up to you how you apply it. If you need a little more guidance on applying the basic principles then an electronics or acoustics qualification might be better for you.

If you are more interested in the music side then a straight music qualification might also be more worthwhile. The Tonmeister course falls into this category (as far as I know) as it is much more music based than technology based.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Edited by James Perrett (01/09/08 09:10 AM)


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Setter
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652147 - 01/09/08 09:49 AM
The best reason for taking a music technology degree is to have a bit of paper to allow you to teach it in schools.

As discussed above music departments could use some help teaching music technology. Whether schools ought to be teaching the A-level is of course a different issue. My own view is that for all sorts of reasons an A-level makes more sense than the full course for those who have an interest.

J


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NorthernDreams



Joined: 05/08/08
Posts: 41
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652164 - 01/09/08 10:52 AM
Ohh yes its a strange one!

I actually studied at confetti......and the lecturers told me the truth......they said this isnt going to guarantee you a job, this and that.........but I couldn't care, I can;t concentrate on doing anything else other than something in music, and Im not good enough at anything else to do it if Im going to be honest........confetti did give me some damn good experience though, and it wasn;t as head in the clouds as people think it is, alot of the lecturers told you how it was going to be.......and to be honest I knew anyway.....but I couldn't help learning about music.

I now work as a music technician......I mean hey its not timbalands job, but I get paid to work in an area that I love.....and im sorry for the horribleeee cliche ahah....but that's all that matters to me for one!

I do agree with what people are saying on here though the universities need to be more open about this stuff, like the lecturers of their courses secretly are!

--------------------
Anthony Latue/Music and Media Technician/City College Coventry


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: NorthernDreams]
      #652193 - 01/09/08 12:07 PM
Quote NorthernDreams:

Ohh yes its a strange one!

I actually studied at confetti......and the lecturers told me the truth......they said this isnt going to guarantee you a job, this and that.........but I couldn't care, I can;t concentrate on doing anything else other than something in music, and Im not good enough at anything else to do it if Im going to be honest........confetti did give me some damn good experience though, and it wasn;t as head in the clouds as people think it is, alot of the lecturers told you how it was going to be.......and to be honest I knew anyway.....but I couldn't help learning about music.

I now work as a music technician......I mean hey its not timbalands job, but I get paid to work in an area that I love.....and im sorry for the horribleeee cliche ahah....but that's all that matters to me for one!

I do agree with what people are saying on here though the universities need to be more open about this stuff, like the lecturers of their courses secretly are!




they need to shut the ruddy things down - what the hell use are 250,000 music tech grads gonna be over the next ten years? Learn a bloody trade and enjoy music....

People wonder why all the work is going to Asia, Arabia and India..... seems like those nations have a better grasp of doing some ruddy work which is exactly why they deserve the economic growth they're going through - UK. A place full of people with their head in the clouds.... it's EXACTLY this kind of TV inspired "i wanna be famous man" - "i gotta do my music ..maaaan" crap that is turning out oodles of nothing...... I blame Simon Cowell..

Not entirely serious rant over...


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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652195 - 01/09/08 12:13 PM
lol, thats a very non confrontational original question

education today is not about education anymore, it's about making money

thats all you need to say, you can work out the pitfalls of that ideology yourself:

student goes round colleges with fat grant cheque or private funds - colleges roll out flashy expensive gear to impress and bend the course not so much to what is required by the student, but rather to fullfil the student fantasies about fiddling with star-trek control panels

what student really needs is considered too boring and unimpressive to make them hand over grant money


-----
I speak as a 21 year old aspiring engineer, who is currently using his skills in therapeautic education, who went to Confetti in Nottingham, and although didn't learn everything, learned a damn slight more than if I "just got some work experience"
-----

work experience? - remember you're talking there about the education ground of pretty much all the worlds top producers and most of the top engineers who were all self taught via experience.


the snobbery seems to be reversed here - my son just finished an honours degree course - it was good to show him many aspects of the subject (like an art foundation course does) which allowed him to then discover & choose a specialisation subject he didnt know about and hadn't experienced, and which he has new decided is the feild he wants to build a career in if possible. That part was good... to experience briefly many areas of sound/audio work

on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.

horses for courses basicaly.

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1326
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #652260 - 01/09/08 02:45 PM
Quote Dr Whom:



i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.






Anyone remember competitive dad from the fast show?

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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ParlourSound



Joined: 01/12/04
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652266 - 01/09/08 03:00 PM
I for one feel very sorry for these music tech students. We are only a med size studio but I think I must get at least 30 CV's every month for student looking for a job or work experience. It's sad to think that some of them paid alot of money for these coures and can't get a job.

--------------------
Neil Haynes - The Parlour Recording Studio
The Parlour FaceBook Page


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Jez (mahoobley)
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652272 - 01/09/08 03:09 PM
As an alternative opinion:

I did a Music Tech related Uni course at Leeds Met. Some aspects of it were totally mickey mouse - at the time the studios were deeply inadequate and some of the tuition was deeply dubious (including one tutor who I strongly believe was a con man after talking the uni to invest in a load of highly expensive gear at full RRP that he may well have been getting commission from). Some aspects were quite good - electronics, DSP, physics and psychoacoustics were covered, albeit in a relatively basic fashion compared to more pure courses, along with multimedia aspects such as video editing and so on.

Regardless of all of this, the most important thing of all was that attending uni put me into an environment of great creative opportunities that I would have never got an oar into elsewhere. I was around film, art and various other media students and was able to get a great deal of experience outside of coursework - I was able to do things, even at a pretty basic level, that I simply would not have had the opportunity to do had I stayed at home. I was also able to find my niche - that as a Sound Designer - which I have been working full time professionally for a number of years now. If I hadn't gone to uni, I wouldn't be where I am today.

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk


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thomomatic



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652273 - 01/09/08 03:14 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Let's be realistic. 90% of the places training for A-levels do not have the people or the equipment to do so, and even if they do have some equipment, it's stretched too thin for students to get enough hands-on experience with e.g. trying out compressor settings or whatever.

As for CVs... on the one hand you can't blame students for trying to make themselves look as good as possible. But despite that, I read loads of the things and say to myself "I'm sorry, but this guy is evidently clueless". Then I reflect on how many years and how many thousands of pounds have gone into achieving that result.

Of course the cream will rise to the top. But then what? I know some really good, experienced engineers who are out of work.




To be honest, this post together with Hugh's, are the most accurate and well put arguments against the thousands of graduates of music technology courses, and the courses themselves of course. The problem i think is mostly concentrating in the way that educations is handled in our times...and given to us, our children, friends etc....

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


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Pangloss
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652287 - 01/09/08 03:46 PM
A friend of mine studied automotive design at a very reputable institution in Turin and one of the first things they were taught is that vanishingly few of them would ever get to work on anything close to a car. Even a car ashtray.

He then transferred halfway through to a similar school in the UK, which for some reason is rated with more kudos. The lecturers there simply would not honestly berate any of the students (now called “learners”, I believe), even when challenged to (my friend is Russian and has a very direct approach). Instead they were all given the feeling throughout that they were all on a path to designing the next Aston.

I think that Narcoman is right, that sensible legislation is needed. Good luck to you.

However, how many 18 year-olds actually hear the depressing/realistic advice that well meaning mentors give them? I know I didn’t. Like Gary Larson's cat, when people said to me, “Music? That’s the hardest industry out there”, I heard “Blah? Blah blah blah blah blah blah”. That advice was fine for everyone else but I was obviously the special case and as such I was at liberty to ignore their advice out of hand.

Fortunately I had a plan-B. I started out studying astrophysics at uni because (honestly) if I wasn’t going to be a rock star I would settle for astronaut. I wasn’t fussy, and after all there was no tea-boy route into that career as far as I knew.

Anyway, my friend did not go on to work on cars but he has started his own design business and, using some old contacts, now designs private jet interiors and mega yachts for oligarchs. It seems that starting your own business is a common theme here.


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Handlestash



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652288 - 01/09/08 03:50 PM
You could start a studio on the moon!

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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Pangloss
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652289 - 01/09/08 03:52 PM
I'm sure Alex James has already done that, no?


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Mowens800



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #652320 - 01/09/08 05:45 PM
Quote Dr Whom:

on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?





no, it just makes either your son, or his course.. [ ****** ]

Don't see what the problem is. My college certainly doesn't advertise the course for getting a job. It is learning something you enjoy, new skills etc.

There's thousands of Psychology and Geography students for example who won't be getting a job in their chosen field (60% of graduates in ANY subject don't!!). I wonder if their is a mind-on-mind forum complaining about all these useless psychology students with their crappy piece of paper.

You can moan about it all you like on a forum, not going to achieve anything really. And student's wouldn't listen anyway if their heart is set on it.


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Mowens800]
      #652338 - 01/09/08 06:55 PM
Quote Anon101:

Quote Dr Whom:

on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?







no, it just makes either your son, or his course.. [ ****** ]

Don't see what the problem is. My college certainly doesn't advertise the course for getting a job. It is learning something you enjoy, new skills etc.

There's thousands of Psychology and Geography students for example who won't be getting a job in their chosen field (60% of graduates in ANY subject don't!!). I wonder if their is a mind-on-mind forum complaining about all these useless psychology students with their crappy piece of paper.

You can moan about it all you like on a forum, not going to achieve anything really. And student's wouldn't listen anyway if their heart is set on it.




Well seeing as geography involves a HUGE amount for social economics I think you could argue that anyone involved in any business or demographic pursuits DOES get a job in their field. Same for Psych.


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6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652359 - 01/09/08 07:44 PM
I think this topic seems to be focusing on the wrong thing.

Degree's don't guarantee jobs and that is not only true of music.

Education is about learning and there is a lot that can be learnt from a good teacher, in a educational environment, I understand that you can learn pretty much anything from a book, the internet, sos etc and these resources are extremely useful tools that a student can add to his/(occasionally her) learning. Having a knowledgeable tutor to guide you through the learning process is surely also a valuable tool.

I agree that the music technology A level specifications are pretty dire in the way they assess skills learnt and the new specification isn't much of an improvement.

It is possible to equip a student with the skills needed to complete a task in many ways, they can be shown the bare minimum to get the task done, or you can equip the student with the knowledge to think for themselves about microphone choice and placement, correct gain structure, when to use compression etc etc. specifications don't tell you how to teach the methods they tell you what is expected as a result, it is then up to the teacher to provide good tuition and this an area thats needs to be addressed.

I know how many people graduate with music tech qualifications and many of those probably achieve their qualification with the minimum of effort and understanding, however some of those students combine their school learning with out of school learning like setting up home studios and recording bands, programming, live sound etc. these are the students that have benefitted from the education system the fact that they went to school doesn't mean their understanding of a subject is less valid because they achieved that understanding in a different way.

If you are relying on your piece of paper to get you the job then you shouldn't really get it anyway.

The industry has and is continuing to change and the need for music technology skills will still continue to be needed. Yes there will still be too many graduates but those candidates who worked hard and are able to adapt to new and different working environments (the ones with more than just a piece of paper) will find themselves ways of earning a living from a passion of theirs.

Don't forget the A level includes more than 'recording skills' composition, arrangement, programming and traditional musical skills are also included.

How many of you would have turned down a place on a music tech course had it existed?


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SunShineState



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652364 - 01/09/08 08:21 PM
Apologies if anyone else has already said this but the irony is that in the past when there were no courses there were lots more studios and potential jobs.

The reason there are few jobs is because there are few studios - the huge boom in home studios that started with the portastudios in the early 80s and has led to what we have today has killed the industry - so IMHO some of the studios that were going bust and had no customers came up with the idea of setting up courses instead - what else could they do - this has eventually led to the boom in audio engineering courses we have today.

Sadly I agree with most of the others here that although these may be interesting and fun they are a very poor bet for getting a career and a decent living - if you want to enjoy music do economics or computer science get a highly paid job in investment banking, then build a f*** off studio to spend any spare time you may have in!

Actually my youngest daughter who is 15 and a muso would love to do a music tech course but I'm afraid I will have to do my best to discourage her.

Sadly being a rich successful engineer/producer is like being a rich successful footballer / rock star etc - if you are one of the few that get there it's because you are incredibly luckly / pushy / in the rught place at the right time etc, etc, regardless of wheter you have talent or not - you would be better studying a "positive thinking and how to shaft people" course than music tech!

As many have said THERE ARE NO JOBS - only do a course if you can afford to have the fun and some way of making a decent living from something else!


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652371 - 01/09/08 08:45 PM
there have never been loads of jobs in studio land, but yes - even less so now.

As for a degree not getting you a job - of course. But music tech courses - not only aren't there any jobs for the grads, the courses (apart from the high end ones mentioned) will STOP you getting work. I would NEVER employ someone on the strength they went to Confetti, for example. It would be a big point against, for me and many many others.

You don't need music tech to work in this industry. You need savvy and cunning. Music tech? RTFM for all the courses are worth.

But you can't be a lawyer or accountant or engineer or teacher or pilot or etc etc WITHOUT a degree in a relevant subject.


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6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652379 - 01/09/08 09:09 PM
I don't understand how a potential job candidate who has tried to gather as much knowledge as possible including studying that subject, would be turned away on the basis they tried to learn some skills by studying at a school. You may agree that the courses aren't the best they could be but surely the dedication and pursuit of that knowledge is worth something to a potential employer. If the position still requires them to make the tea i'm sure many would be grateful for the chance, at least thy are showing willing.

I don't see the A level as a threat when it can be studied alongside other subjects i.e. Music Math and Physics.

But I can understand and agree that putting your eggs in one basket is where the problem lies especially if it's the wrong basket.


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: 6strings1cable&1amp]
      #652381 - 01/09/08 09:18 PM
Quote RMarshall:

How many of you would have turned down a place on a music tech course had it existed?




Me!

It's a silly question because it means nothing outside of the context of the individual faced with that decision at that time.

As it happens, I turned down all university education (although I had some offers, to read English, at redbrick universities), because at that time I preferred to earn some money to buy some guitars and amplifiers and stuff.

That day job got a bit out of hand and I ended up a partner in the biggest firm of accountants on the planet, and then chose to regard music as a hobby for a while, until I went back to it full-time, by choice, some years ago.

Quote narcoman:

But you can't be a lawyer or accountant or engineer or teacher or pilot or etc etc WITHOUT a degree in a relevant subject.




Not now, I agree. I got lucky, for long and convoluted reasons.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/09/08 09:21 PM)


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6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
Posts: 16
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652389 - 01/09/08 09:57 PM
I too chose work over university and yes guitars were one of the main influences. I had a bad experience with education post 16 taking a full time music course that was poorly written and delivered and left me disgruntled.

I never intended to become a teacher or lecturer (actually my job title as was commented on earlier, I think they are trying to glorify the post). But when the opportunity arose I felt I could provide better tuition than my own experiences.

I teach part time and have been fortunate enough to find two institutions that were willing to employ me over the guys with degrees. It is possible and the rates are available although there is always someone new in finance to convince!

I see providing good quality A level tuition as an eye opener for students, a way of discovering the roles and job types without committing to making tea for two years in one of the remaining studios before deciding that working the graveyard shift recording awful bands wasn't as glamorous a career path as they thought. Instead they discovered sound design or composing for computer games and then chose an appropriate pathway to pursue it.

In the very first lesson at the beginning of term this very topic of conversation is discussed, once they leave there is not much I can do to stop then from enrolling on a FE course. I can only steer their pathways and the Tonnmeister is included as a goal for those seriously interested in a guide pack provided to potential students before the course, as their other A level choices are important Math and Physics etc.


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The Red Bladder



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652399 - 01/09/08 10:51 PM
When I was a teacher, I was a clueless pratt as well.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652402 - 01/09/08 11:02 PM
Just out of interest, if I for example applied for a work experience placement with any of the contributors to this thread. How many of you would count it against me that i am currently studying at a university and studying a music tech degree. I feel that failing to include that information could be even more disastorous apart from deliberately hiding the truth. Obviously everything is on a case by case basis.

I personally have become more frequently fed up with how i feel like my university is teaching me and my friends information that is utterly useless as far as employability goes. Occasionally i get something useful from the odd lecturer who goes out of there way. I feel like my best chances of getting employed come from my extra curricular activities. I have built a wah pedal from a basic kit, im capable of reading simple circuit diagrams, i can read music albeit slowly, i perform with my own band on a usually weekly basis. I am about to start building my own modular synthesizer from scratch. I would say that i am capable with a soldering iron, and hopefully at hobbyist level of recording.

I feel like the lecturers understand this, the pure music modules and composition are useful, and the recording modules seem almost useful although i tend to usually know how most of it is done due to spending hours reading these forums and having the magazine subscription. Some of the lecturers seem equally frustrated that they have to teach us modules such as the history of pop or music in the computer age, which are probably wonderful as an extra curricular activity for a music journalist, but i fail to see how they could ever help an aspiring engineer.

Alot of the people on my course i will admit seem to be there for lack of a better idea.

I seriously thought about dropping out this year to just attempt to go it alone as all my employable skills dont appear to come from what im spending £7000 a year on.

Oh and now would also seem like a good time to get an anonymous alias for this forum.

This rant probably doesnt appear to go anywhere so ill reiterate what i was originally asking which is if you recieved a cv doubtless what other credentials the person had would you count a music tech degree against them?

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


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adam miller



Joined: 02/08/06
Posts: 84
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652404 - 01/09/08 11:19 PM
Just for some perspective, I only know two assistants that didn't do some form of music tech course. Of the rest, maybe half are tonmeisters and the rest are from all over the shop.


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2413
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652405 - 01/09/08 11:19 PM
Hi James!

We expect interns to be able to read a circuit diagram and an orchestral score with no difficulties and to have musical abilities beyond just formal reading. We also expect fluent computer skills.

I was talking to a professor of MT and he pointed out that when his students start, some 80% want to work in a studio. When they finish the course and have seen what work in a studio really entails, 20% or fewer want to work in a studio.

The work is poorly paid, it is very difficult and stressful and there are practically no prospects for promotion, travel, or even something as normal as a company car.

If you study Business Economics and German, you could work for Aldi in their management scheme, get a company car, a dream salary and travel the World.


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Neil C
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 2616
Loc: Under a PlopEgg
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #652407 - 01/09/08 11:33 PM
Quote The Red Bladder:


If you study Business Economics and German




Ooh, yes please, that really fires me up.

Quote The Red Bladder:


you could work for Aldi in their management scheme, get a company car, a dream salary




My god, I see it now, I've wasted my life.



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Seaforth
member


Joined: 27/08/02
Posts: 274
Loc: East Anglia, Great Britain
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652408 - 01/09/08 11:35 PM
Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?

I know loads of people think it's utterly anal and stupid to be troubled about these things and I appreciate that there are very knowledgable people who can't spell. But the "Hey, i can't be arsed to press that shift button - just get a life, dude im rockng" mentality is so flipping depressing.

Isn't attention to detail a vaguely worthwhile skill? No doubt I've made millions of basic errors in this small submission but I don't care. And I don't care because I am sick and tired of people who are in "Higher Education" or "Further Education", be it as pupils, students, teachers or lecturers displaying such a lamentably poor grasp of the English language. And if anyone is inclined to claim that their English is fine but they're just disinclined to bother well...they're worse. (People who do not speak English as a first language may have their sentence commuted, if they're very nice to me).

Thank you and goodnight.


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Neil C
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652409 - 01/09/08 11:58 PM
Quote Seaforth:

Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?





Yes, it should be included if you're seriously interested in a guide pack.


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JamesSimpson



Joined: 24/12/05
Posts: 1075
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652411 - 02/09/08 12:05 AM
Quote Seaforth:

Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?





Im not sure if this was directed specifically at me, or at the thread in general. Either way I'm going to challenge it to a certain extent.

If I was writing a letter directly to an employer i would go to every length to check the spelling, grammar and punctuation. As it is I'm only asking for advice on a relatively casual forum, same as everybody else. I understand that many prospective employers/industry bods hang around here and as such may take notice of blatant written errors. I would hope that everybody can have their professional and casual hats on at different times.

So long as a post is readable and not just a big chunk of sprawling one sentence drivel, everybody can manage okay. Gearslutz and Harmony central tend to be a lot worse.

I also understand that it must be irritating to everybody to get covering letters and poorly written CV's from supposed "University level students".


Thanks for the advice The Red Bladder. I am only 19 and hopefully I can push myself further, hopefully in the next year I can expand my portfolio a lot further and add to my music and electrical expertise.

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


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stevie j



Joined: 22/05/07
Posts: 279
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652414 - 02/09/08 12:44 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:



If I was writing a letter directly to an employer i would go to every length to check the spelling, grammar and punctuation. As it is I'm only asking for advice on a relatively casual forum, same as everybody else. I understand that many prospective employers/industry bods hang around here and as such may take notice of blatant written errors. I would hope that everybody can have their professional and casual hats on at different times.

So long as a post is readable and not just a big chunk of sprawling one sentence drivel, everybody can manage okay. Gearslutz and Harmony central tend to be a lot worse.





Should the ability to use the Queen's English not be second nature by the time you are 19?

I am also 19 and hate 'text speak' and poor grammar. The amount of people confusing their 'yours' and 'theres' etc. really annoys me. It smacks of ignorance and laziness even if it is on a forum.

The English language is there to help people understand the ideas you are trying to get across. Make it easy for us.

--------------------
Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.


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Seaforth
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: stevie j]
      #652415 - 02/09/08 12:50 AM
Quote stevie j:

Quote JamesSimpson:




The English language is there to help people understand the ideas you are trying to get across.




Well said, that man.


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Dishpan



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 813
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652416 - 02/09/08 01:00 AM
> No doubt I've made millions of basic errors in this small submission but I don't care.

> And if anyone is inclined to claim that their English is fine but they're just disinclined to bother well...

Irony is a wonderful thing!


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. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dishpan]
      #652423 - 02/09/08 02:51 AM
not too much starch please..........





ooopps sorry i thought yu said ironing.....




coat acquired... door headed for....


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ConcertinaChap



Joined: 20/07/05
Posts: 2558
Loc: Bradford on Avon
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652424 - 02/09/08 03:37 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:

So long as a post is readable and not just a big chunk of sprawling one sentence drivel, everybody can manage okay. Gearslutz and Harmony central tend to be a lot worse.



Which of course is one reason why I prefer this forum ...

I suspect many people of your age (sounds condescending, but I'm not sure how else to say it) don't realise just how aggravating to people of, shall we aay, more advanced years text speak is. To you it's a sign of easy informality. To us it's a large fingernail on the blackboard of life.

So, yes, we can manage OK, but on a forum where many (including myself at 57) fall into the older group don't you think it would be considerate to humour us? Just a thought ...

Chris

--------------------
Back away from the concertina and no-one gets hurt
Mr Punch's Studio


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652455 - 02/09/08 07:37 AM
Quote Seaforth:

Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?

I know loads of people think it's utterly anal and stupid to be troubled about these things and I appreciate that there are very knowledgable people who can't spell. But the "Hey, i can't be arsed to press that shift button - just get a life, dude im rockng" mentality is so flipping depressing.

Isn't attention to detail a vaguely worthwhile skill? No doubt I've made millions of basic errors in this small submission but I don't care. And I don't care because I am sick and tired of people who are in "Higher Education" or "Further Education", be it as pupils, students, teachers or lecturers displaying such a lamentably poor grasp of the English language. And if anyone is inclined to claim that their English is fine but they're just disinclined to bother well...they're worse. (People who do not speak English as a first language may have their sentence commuted, if they're very nice to me).

Thank you and goodnight.




this is a point worth raising. however, i don't think you should be so quick to judge people on their writings on an online forum.

i am as picky as the next man about correct grammar and punctuation, but i'm also well aware that many of the most intelligent and creative people i know struggle with spelling, despite English being their mother tongue. if using abbreviations allows them to get their point across more clearly, then i have no problem with it. when txtspk (ugh) becomes more an obfuscation than anything else, then it is to be discouraged. (as an aside, use of heavily abbreviated language online is not a phenomenon restricted to the young, ConcertinaChap - i know plenty of fifty-somethings on other fora who write equally badly!).

likewise, i choose to not use capitals much of the time - to emphasis a tone of voice. this is as much an online convention as anything else; the opposite, ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING, is well known. it's a deliberate choice on my part to use lower case.

i know the temptation to dismiss people based upon their language skills is strong, but if this forum is as enlightened as it claims to be (and has been in the past), then we should focus on the content of people's posts, rather than whether they have missed a comma out.

(and before we get into the discussion of "your posts on this public forum can and will be read by your employers", there's a reason people use psuedonyms.)

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Edited by onesecondglance (02/09/08 07:47 AM)


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NorthernDreams



Joined: 05/08/08
Posts: 41
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652462 - 02/09/08 07:58 AM
i carent b-leave it!

wat on urth r u guyz talkin bout!


ahah Just messin'......

I mean, I appologise, I am just joking!

(I now feel really self conscious about my spelling! )

--------------------
Anthony Latue/Music and Media Technician/City College Coventry


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9216
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652471 - 02/09/08 08:22 AM
My input into this debate comes from another angle, that of a tutor that is inundated with students that want 1-2-1 tuition and 90% of all these applicants have already been on the courses mentioned above.

What strikes me as amazing is the incredible lack of 'correct' knowledge that these students have and it is their recognition of this lack of 'substance' that has led them to me and many like me.

When you bear in mind the huge learning curves required today in all aspects of the technical side of our industry, and far more than in my day, then it amazes me that so little is taught and the little that is taught is taught badly.

If someone chooses to enter our industry and decides to go down the 'learning' route and is fully aware of the end result and potential in the market place then it is our duty to afford that person the correct knowledge and experience............not to fleece them for all they are worth.
And that is my gripe!

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10649
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652472 - 02/09/08 08:30 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:

Just out of interest, if I for example applied for a work experience placement with any of the contributors to this thread. How many of you would count it against me that i am currently studying at a university and studying a music tech degree.




Your choice of university would tell us whether you chose a university with low entrance requirements because you didn't have great grades at A level or, if you have good grades at A level, it would tell us that you hadn't researched your chosen career very well.

Most employers recognise that there is a hierarchy in the university system although many of them may be out of date when it comes to the exact placings in the hierarchy. If you are studying at a less well established university you are going to struggle to convince employers that you are good, no matter what your degree.

But your university course is just one thing on your CV. As many of us older codgers have said here, what really counts is the ability to demonstrate that you can do the job. At my first job interview as an 18 year old I was able to talk about recordings I had done with unconventional mic positioning and explain why I had done it and what I would do differently next time. I was already doing demos and live recordings for bands and recording college shows. I didn't have the knowledge (or patience) to work in a studio at that point but I was well on the way to acquiring the knowledge. I didn't have much gear - just a stereo reel to reel with sound on sound and a couple of cheap mics but it was enough to keep me going.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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coojuice



Joined: 29/10/07
Posts: 371
Loc: Scotland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #652479 - 02/09/08 08:46 AM
Looking through the adverts for these music tech courses in the SOS magazine I don't see anywhere that they claim to guarantee you a job once completed. I'd like to know where this thinking comes from?

Is it from people who were misled from these course developers prior to attending them? This is a genuine concern I have as I don't think it's fair for someone to waste their time and effort on a course when they are clearly being led up the garden path.

What I don't understand is how can anyone that hasn't been on one of these courses honestly tell someone that it's a waste of time if they haven't experienced it? It appears the general dislike of these courses are from people who haven't even been on one and that's a bit unfair even if it genuinely the case.

I find it very ironic that so much of us on here have this negative feeling towards such learning opportunities but are happy enough to see these course advertisements within the SOS magazine! Does the SOS magazine Editorial Team think they are a waste of time but are happy to have them pay the bills anyway and not care about their customers? I think not!

I honestly think that there is this divide simply because that's the way the world has always worked. The old vs the new! In which case i'm neither...

Anyways, there may be valid points to each side here but only from a perspective where someone has experienced it and not just heard of it, which has mainly not been the case in this post.

--------------------
easily pleased...


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