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PaulD



Joined: 04/01/03
Posts: 1270
Loc: Bristol UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652480 - 02/09/08 08:48 AM
Hi
On the point no jobs = make your own self-employed way:
Business skills are 100% important in this:
a) to make the enterprise profitable, or
b) to recognise when to wind the thing up (and DO IT) without damage when things don't work out.

So if music tech in some form is what you love and want to do -
Go to uni to study BUSINESS, because that's the difficult bit that is NOT easy to learn from self-study on your own - if you are someone who really loves music...


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #652488 - 02/09/08 09:06 AM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

Looking through the adverts for these music tech courses in the SOS magazine I don't see anywhere that they claim to guarantee you a job once completed. I'd like to know where this thinking comes from?

Is it from people who were misled from these course developers prior to attending them? This is a genuine concern I have as I don't think it's fair for someone to waste their time and effort on a course when they are clearly being led up the garden path.

What I don't understand is how can anyone that hasn't been on one of these courses honestly tell someone that it's a waste of time if they haven't experienced it? It appears the general dislike of these courses are from people who haven't even been on one and that's a bit unfair even if it genuinely the case.

I find it very ironic that so much of us on here have this negative feeling towards such learning opportunities but are happy enough to see these course advertisements within the SOS magazine! Does the SOS magazine Editorial Team think they are a waste of time but are happy to have them pay the bills anyway and not care about their customers? I think not!

I honestly think that there is this divide simply because that's the way the world has always worked. The old vs the new! In which case i'm neither...

Anyways, there may be valid points to each side here but only from a perspective where someone has experienced it and not just heard of it, which has mainly not been the case in this post.




..because they're exploitative. Money first - education worth second. THAT's why. People pay money for useless badly taught crap, fueled by young naivety. The courses pray on those who don't know any better. We're trying to re-dress the balance.


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: PaulD]
      #652490 - 02/09/08 09:07 AM
Quote PaulD:

Hi
On the point no jobs = make your own self-employed way:
Business skills are 100% important in this:
a) to make the enterprise profitable, or
b) to recognise when to wind the thing up (and DO IT) without damage when things don't work out.

So if music tech in some form is what you love and want to do -
Go to uni to study BUSINESS, because that's the difficult bit that is NOT easy to learn from self-study on your own - if you are someone who really loves music...




FINALLY! Someone who gets it.


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Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #652506 - 02/09/08 09:42 AM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

Looking through the adverts for these music tech courses in the SOS magazine I don't see anywhere that they claim to guarantee you a job once completed. I'd like to know where this thinking comes from?




two examples of many "implied employment prospects"

"professionals are made, not born."

"industry contacts and placements"


Quote tobacco_slammers:


Is it from people who were misled from these course developers prior to attending them? This is a genuine concern I have as I don't think it's fair for someone to waste their time and effort on a course when they are clearly being led up the garden path.




if you read back ver the last 6 years or so of V2 ad V3 forums you'l find there are many tales of precisely that.


Quote tobacco_slammers:


What I don't understand is how can anyone that hasn't been on one of these courses honestly tell someone that it's a waste of time if they haven't experienced it? It appears the general dislike of these courses are from people who haven't even been on one and that's a bit unfair even if it genuinely the case.




1) some of them used to teach these courses.... (some still do) , some have had first hand experience of dealing with the often entirely useless end product from a front line supervisory role at an employers stand point.... often as a result of management hiring a piece of paper (more usually some time ago... before the general industry cottoned on to how poor some of them were...) , and some have the common sense to add 2 and 2 and get 4...
supply and demand is a universal precept... except in this industry... where the supply is far outstripping the demand, and therefore , as per any other economic system, the supply is devalued....

2)How is it not fair if it's genuinely the case??







Quote tobacco_slammers:


I find it very ironic that so much of us on here have this negative feeling towards such learning opportunities but are happy enough to see these course advertisements within the SOS magazine! Does the SOS magazine Editorial Team think they are a waste of time but are happy to have them pay the bills anyway and not care about their customers? I think not!




Hugh and Paul (and others) have publicly "expressed their reservations " about the quality and usefulness of many courses... I know also that Hugh has consistently turned down offers of employment on any of them... n matter what money was offered....
But it's a subject that perhaps should be left alone... advertising revenue IS critical in ensuring SOS 's continued existence... and while they don't really pander to the advertisers , they'd also probably prefer not to piss them off royally either.......
SOS is a business and SOMEONE has to pay the piper, the printer, the distributor, the contributors, and it must still make money... I'd postulate that the reason it's slightly thinner than it was a couple of years back , and that development of additional features and services is slower than then, is the removal of the majority of retail based advertising..... The revenue IS important ..... Oh, it would probably survive with none, but in a very much reduced capacity... and who on earth wants that?


Quote tobacco_slammers:


I honestly think that there is this divide simply because that's the way the world has always worked. The old vs the new! In which case i'm neither...

Anyways, there may be valid points to each side here but only from a perspective where someone has experienced it and not just heard of it, which has mainly not been the case in this post.




I'd have to disagree , but then you kind of knew that was coming,,,,

I'd say the majority of the nay-saying old guard , really do have the common good at heart... in the long term, what's good for the potential student is likely to be good for the industry.... call it enlightened self interest..... and none of them enjoy seeing people mislead or ripped off...

try calling round the manufacturers and asking where all their technically related, qualification holding, staff under 30 graduated from... in many cases, it's exclusively from the surrey Tonmeister course. the most common alternative is a pure science/engineering physics/math/electronics type course.


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Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652507 - 02/09/08 09:43 AM
Quote narcoman:

Quote PaulD:

Hi
On the point no jobs = make your own self-employed way:
Business skills are 100% important in this:
a) to make the enterprise profitable, or
b) to recognise when to wind the thing up (and DO IT) without damage when things don't work out.

So if music tech in some form is what you love and want to do -
Go to uni to study BUSINESS, because that's the difficult bit that is NOT easy to learn from self-study on your own - if you are someone who really loves music...




FINALLY! Someone who gets it.




err yeah, but he's a long standing respected member of the old guard... they ALL pretty much get it....


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The Red Bladder



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Re: anti music tech education - the madness continues! new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652519 - 02/09/08 10:18 AM
The madness continues!

I just got a call this morning from a university, asking if I would be interested in graduates from their new Music Recording Technology course they are starting up next year!

I told them to read this thread and others like it on other forums.

The woman who called seemed to be completely unaware of the state of the recording industry. She was amazed to hear that there are just 30 commercial recording studios in the UK. She was unaware that the whole recording studio scene in the UK has an annual turnover of about £10m (give or take a couple of million) and that the three A's account for over half that.

She did not even know that about 2,000 graduates of three-year MT courses are entering the employment market every year in the UK alone.

She honestly thought that the BBC would be interested in these graduates.

Just how clueless are these people?


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thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1210
Re: anti music tech education - the madness continues! new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #652521 - 02/09/08 10:22 AM
Quote The Red Bladder:


The woman who called seemed to be completely unaware of the state of the recording industry. She was amazed to hear that there are just 30 commercial recording studios in the UK. She was unaware that the whole recording studio scene in the UK has an annual turnover of about £10m (give or take a couple of million) and that the three A's account for over half that.




Sums it up really.


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Arpangel
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652530 - 02/09/08 10:45 AM
I didn't think there was anything wrong with training in the old days, the BBC, and work experience in engineering etc. Years ago If your aspirations were to become a commercial engineer you'd have to know about certain things like lining up tape machines, a knowledge of electronics if things went wrong, things were a lot more involved in those days, and yes, you did need to be an "engineer" in every sense of the word.
Today, from a technical point of view the engineers life has become a lot easier, and you don't need as many traditional engineering skills as you did in the past. What can you teach someone these days ? Providing you have a good working knowledge of the main recording software that your studio uses the rest is purely down to personal taste and experience. Mic techniques ?? are down to personal likes and dislikes, and experience.
The days of being able to get a job based purely on your technical and engineering qualifications are over in my opinion, which brings into question the validity of at least a few of the courses on offer these days.

Tony.


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652565 - 02/09/08 11:52 AM
training isnt the issue though.
Training 100 times as many people as you need, and doing it badly - well that is the issue.


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kcseb
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652593 - 02/09/08 12:44 PM
Personally I think it's this...plenty of people get obsessed with music and music technology and find their own path from their teen years onwards to get involved, even if it means making certain sacrifices to do just that.

Now what sort of person with any genuine passion and interest needs to be convinced via an advert to study the subject? If you care that little and didn't get off your own arse in the first place, that could suggest a problem.

OK there are always exceptions, I'm sure there are good people who do these courses hoping to build on what they've already learnt themeselves, but the OVERALL atmosphere I think survives of half-arsed teaching, half-arsed learning, and focusing on the prize more than the craft.

It's not solely music tech I'm sure, no doubt film and other media courses suffer from it too.

And yes I did do one of these courses.


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JamesSimpson



Joined: 24/12/05
Posts: 1075
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652600 - 02/09/08 12:54 PM
Quote Seaforth:

Quote stevie j:

Quote JamesSimpson:




The English language is there to help people understand the ideas you are trying to get across.




Well said, that man.




You implied that you made errors but you didn't care and then said that you have no time for people that make errors and don't care?!

You also missed out the "i" in rocking. I too get frustrated with txtspk used on internet forums. So long as the English is fairly well constructed and makes sense I don't have a problem. 95% of the people on this forum make mistakes but its all perfectly reasonable.

The majority of the planet does not speak colloquially how their written language is written. I see this forum, as do many others as a casual area. We are not writing publishable(sp?!) material. This is what the sounding off column is for in the magazine.






Back on topic, it is useful having these discussions from a student point of view if only to point out the glaring omissions from my experience so I know what to start working on. I'm sure many others would agree.

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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652633 - 02/09/08 02:00 PM
Am I the only one that thinks this thread should be put out of its misery?

Shooting would be quickest & kindest, I think...

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: kcseb]
      #652634 - 02/09/08 02:01 PM
Quote kcseb:

Now what sort of person with any genuine passion and interest needs to be convinced via an advert to study the subject?



The trouble is that there's more than a hint of the 'X-Factor/Pop Idol' about it for some people (not all of course) ... i.e. the implication of 'just do this and you're sorted in the glamourous biz that is music for life'. Which is bollox.

As narco says, they are preying on kids who don't know better and whose valuable time at that important time in their lives could (and maybe should) be spent doing something more useful. If, with something more useful under their belt, they then want to schlepp it up and down the the motorways of the UK, sleeping rough in vans or dodgy B+Bs and/or pandering to talentless cockmonkeys, blah, blah, blah, for little (and sometimes no) money, that's their prerogative. Good luck to 'em. And IF they manage to make a career out of it through sheer and dogged perseverance (and being damned good at what they do), then more power to their elbow - God bless 'em all.

If, however, they DON'T manage to make anything of it (and the vast majority won't), they can fall back on their 'useful' degree/training/whatever to pursue something that will pay the rent/mortgage and will have a future with some degree of security and prospects - the music/engineering can simply be a hobby or semi-pro activity (and it may well be a damned sight more enjoyable as a hobby than as a precarious 8am-3am job which, believe me, can sap the 'enjoyment' out of it all).

I sometimes wish I'd had some 'old guards' giving me this advice back when I was 18 especially when I see old mates of mine in regular jobs (that they enjoy) getting paid more than me, having holidays, a decent motor, etc., and then having a blast with their band playing gigs on a semi-pro basis. There are plenty on this forum who do just that.

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stevie j



Joined: 22/05/07
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #652638 - 02/09/08 02:19 PM
Quote hollowsun:



As narco says, they are preying on kids who don't know better and whose valuable time at that important time in their lives could (and maybe should) be spent doing something more useful. If, with something more useful under their belt, they then want to schlepp it up and down the the motorways of the UK, sleeping rough in vans or dodgy B+Bs and/or pandering to talentless cockmonkeys, blah, blah, blah, for little (and sometimes no) money, that's their prerogative. Good luck to 'em. And IF they manage to make a career out of it through sheer and dogged perseverance (and being damned good at what they do), then more power to their elbow - God bless 'em all.

If, however, they DON'T manage to make anything of it (and the vast majority won't), they can fall back on their 'useful' degree/training/whatever to pursue something that will pay the rent/mortgage and will have a future with some degree of security and prospects - the music/engineering can simply be a hobby or semi-pro activity (and it may well be a damned sight more enjoyable as a hobby than as a precarious 8am-3am job which, believe me, can sap the 'enjoyment' out of it all).






Exactly what I'm doing. I'm a student studying Biomedical Sciences. But on the side I am a sound engineer, for the last year or so I have been working freelance (With loads of learning and practice for a year or two beforehand).

I called up a sound engineer after getting his number from a PA hire shop he has a contract with. He gave me a wee bar gig with a bunch of nobodies to see how I'd cope, turns out I did well and he passed my number round to other engineers and I cover for them when they're double booked etc.
On top of that, I have made loads of contacts from the gigs I have done for them and I am now making a lot more money than anyone else I know in uni and am getting out and about with all sorts of musicians. Most recently Eric Bell and Henry McCullough, and also Amy Winehouse's sax player.

Of all the music tech student's/grads I know, there's only one that I know of who actually works in pro audio. He posts on this forum.

The way see it is, my year or so of working freelance will be much more of an incentive for an employer to employ me than having spent two or three years in a classroom with no hands on experience.

Its exactly the same problem with trades, I have mates who stayed on to do A-levels, and that clearly didn't suit them. They went to do an apprenticeship after their A-levels, and even at that, only two day's a week is hands on, three are in the classroom.

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652646 - 02/09/08 02:40 PM
I'm not sure this thread needs locking at all, I think a lot of it seems open minded discussion. Its never got nasty or personal. If anything a cut down version could be done with being made sticky.

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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: stevie j]
      #652660 - 02/09/08 03:07 PM
Quote stevie j:

Exactly what I'm doing. I'm a student studying Biomedical Sciences. But on the side I am a sound engineer, for the last year or so I have been working freelance (With loads of learning and practice for a year or two beforehand).

I called up a sound engineer after getting his number from a PA hire shop he has a contract with. He gave me a wee bar gig with a bunch of nobodies to see how I'd cope, turns out I did well and he passed my number round to other engineers and I cover for them when they're double booked etc.



And that's how it has pretty much always worked (and probably always will) in this biz for the most part.

Good luck to you mate in both your endeavours. At least if the sound engineering doesn't work out, a career (and probably a lucrative one) beckons in biomedicine. But there's another thing...

You can CHOOSE which route you want to pursue - if you grow tired of the sound engineering, you have something to fall back on and you can choose to walk down another career path.

And here's something that's not been brought into the equation....

Settling down.

Easy to dismiss it but inevitably it happens - people find someone and choose to commit and sometimes, the partner is not best enamoured at you being out all hours of the night gigging or being permanently away chasing jobs. At first, it can be a novelty but they can tire of being broke, even subsidising their other half's musical activities. Most of the guys I used to play and gig and record with back in the day who fell by the wayside did so under pressure from their other half... or genuinely preferred domesticity with their loved one. So they focused on their day job (or went out and got one) and 'settled down'...

And they're the guys having a blast now gigging and recording for fun and enjoyment.

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Nathan



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #652692 - 02/09/08 04:08 PM
settling down..?

oh yes, that's familiar

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lincoln, uk.


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652700 - 02/09/08 04:44 PM
Quote JamesSimpson:

I'm not sure this thread needs locking at all, I think a lot of it seems open minded discussion. Its never got nasty or personal. If anything a cut down version could be done with being made sticky.




def not. Everyone's being very nice about it all. No nasties..let's keep it that way !!


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Arpangel]
      #652702 - 02/09/08 04:48 PM
Quote arpangel:

Years ago If your aspirations were to become a commercial engineer you'd have to know about certain things like lining up tape machines, a knowledge of electronics if things went wrong, things were a lot more involved in those days, and yes, you did need to be an "engineer" in every sense of the word.

Today, from a technical point of view the engineers life has become a lot easier, and you don't need as many traditional engineering skills as you did in the past.




It hasn't changed -- and in some ways, it has actually become more complex. There may be less need to tinker with transistors and capacitors these days, but instead you now need to be competent with both computer platforms, network systems, RAID arrays and all manner of other IT stuff.

But all the core audio skills are exactly the same. You still need to understand how mics work and the qualities inherent in the various designs to use them effectively. You still need to understand gain structures. You still need to understand the difference between filters, shelf and bell equalisers, and how to use them to achieve the required results, you still need to understand dynamic processing and the trade-offs inherent in the various parameters. You still need to understand acoustics, and monitoring and ... None of that has changed.

What has changed is the prevalent mindset that you can now mess about for hours with a computer software package and eventually stumble on a combination of processing and settings that work. Nobody minds that it took six hours to achieve something that a competent and properly trained sound engineer could have achieved in under an hour, because in the context of a home studio there is no bill to pay, and messing about with the computer is quite fun to many people.

Quote:

What can you teach someone these days ?




Lots. Although I only run courses occasionally now, and mainly for corporate clients like the BBC, SIS and Sky, there is still serious demand for high level technical training in those organisations that rely on people knowing what they are doing. I'm also involved in running a course on mic placement skills for the IBS soon too, and that is open to all. (www.ibs.org.uk)

Quote:

Mic techniques ?? are down to personal likes and dislikes, and experience.




Only partially. There is a lot of science and technique involved to get it right, and if you understand that you can select the most appropriate mic and place it in the most appropriate position straight away, and then fine tune by ear. Without that underpinning knowledge you'll either be faffing around trying different mics in wildly different places hoping to stumble across something that works before the musicians die, or you'll stick a mic up where you saw someone else put it once, and never actually know why or whether that really gets the best sound. The latter approach is the most common, and is always followed by diving straight for the EQ to try and bend a less than ideal source sound into something more acceptable.

Hugh

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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #652724 - 02/09/08 06:33 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:



i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.






Anyone remember competitive dad from the fast show?





no no no, it's nothing to do with that, i'm very proud of what he's achieved knowing what a minefeild of PC bullcrap it was to wade thru, it's just that it's lacking in so many basic areas pertaining to real life.

anyways, i'm not even going to 'go there' on my opinion on modern education, i'll be lyched by the 'pc mob'

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Arpangel
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #652737 - 02/09/08 06:57 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote arpangel:



But all the core audio skills are exactly the same. You still need to understand how mics work and the qualities inherent in the various designs to use them effectively. You still need to understand gain structures. You still need to understand the difference between filters, shelf and bell equalisers, and how to use them to achieve the required results, you still need to understand dynamic processing and the trade-offs inherent in the various parameters. You still need to understand acoustics, and monitoring and ... None of that has changed.






Hi Hugh, I think like me, you had a passion for recording technology at an early age, unlike me, you went into the "engineering" profession, whereas I pursued other things musical (but I'll eave that open to debate !)
But by the time I was in my early teens I knew a lot about the things you talk about above, taught myself, out of pure passion and enthusiasm. I always wonder what people are about if they reach a certain age and don't even know what a shelving EQ is for instance, or the basics of gain structure, and can't solder a lead ! and have to go to college to be taught those things. What are their ultimate motives for wanting to get into the industry ? The best engineers have always been people who have had a passion for a particular music, and have chosen to work in that area because they have a natural feel for it, be it our friend John Willet who seems to make fantastic piano recordings, or people like Flood or Hugh Padgham, or any one of a number of similar people. Engineers have to be happy with being engineers, from an early age, and the successful ones don't see it as a springboard to anything else.

Tony.


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coojuice



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Arpangel]
      #652757 - 02/09/08 08:22 PM
I think the main focal point from this debate that will educate all us music industry virgins is the fact that to get a job within any industry you have to learn the skills required somewhere, be it in a workplace or on a particular course. Both of these options will have advantages and disadvantages.

Jobs within the music industry now are harder to come by as mentioned a few times previously so I think the purpose of most(I can't possibly vouch for all) courses are to keep people upto date on the latest methods and equipment used in these various areas today whereas it would be difficult to get the same amount of dedicated time to a learner, say, within a studio environment (not that everyone attending would actually want to work in a studio). Not all the courses focus on one specific area, they introduce you to a number of different areas which i'd say most students have never thought of before they enrol, I know I didn't and I feel I now have more oppertunity of doing something within the industry as my course has shown me that there is much more than just learning how to produce your own tracks!

Maybe I think this way about the courses because I've already done a trade as a Mechanical Engineer and I can always fall back to that, but I started my course because I didn't like my existing job choice. There were other Engineering jobs but unfortunately to really be successful in Mechanical Engineering in this country now you have to have either "Chemical Experience" or be willing to "Work Offshore". The first I don't have and the latter was not an option as I too have recently just "settled down" as mentioned before and my wife is currently at university in her last year of of a primary teaching course, so I wouldn't have had much time to see her if I chose to work offshore (which I wouldn't enjoy anyway). Having a morgage to pay each month kind of limits you to not working for pennies or free too so the reason I chose to learn this way was so that I could do a part time job also. It doesn't bring in much but just enough to keep the sharks at bay!
Come to think of it now, I think I may just be having an early mid life crisis!

To get back on track... The point i'm making here is that maybe i'm a different case to most students studying but this was the most practical solution for me to learn what interests me and i've found it very interesting and helpful. I'm perfectly aware that it's not easy to get a job in the industry but like I said before, this is the same for any industry. I'm having fun whilst learning at the same time so it can't be all that bad! I also have my tuition fees paid for me so although I just manage to get by financially this is not down to the actual course, this is personal choice. Out of curiosity, where does the high prices of these courses come from that have been mentioned? Are they private courses or at college's like the one i'm at? Why is there no funding avaliable to the students?

There is always going to be a need for audio in some form or another so there is always going to be a need for someone to work with it...

--------------------
easily pleased...


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7790
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #652838 - 03/09/08 08:03 AM
Quote tobacco_slammers:


There is always going to be a need for audio in some form or another so there is always going to be a need for someone to work with it...




Yeah but not 20,000 new ones per year...
Or whatever the figure is.
The biggest problem as I see it is that there are this number of people looking to join a !profession" that has only really existed since the early 20th century & by this point in the 21st century is already drastically on the wane.
By all means go to college to learn about recording etc., but don`t ever think of it as seriously offering much in the way of career options.
Sort of like doing a sociology degree, but with even less relevance to the real world of gainful employment.

Do not misunderstand me.
If I had the time and money to do one of these courses, I probably would.
Actually applied to a local college to do a BTech in MT & was told I was "too old, but we`re not supposed to say that."
Just that I would be going into it looking to further my existing knowledge and experience for my own satisfaction & nothing more than that.

From my standpoint, the value of these courses hinges on that premise.
IF you want to do it because you want to do it, fine.
IF you want to do it in order to get a job, BZTTT! Wrong answer.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652973 - 03/09/08 04:02 PM
Exactly Ivan.

Tobbacs... the prob is only to do with numbers. You just don't need the numbers of grads a year we get. And you CANNOT learn this trade by attending college. Training , even in the old days, is best served as an apprentice. This isn't a particularly dificult job, but it is one - as Hugh pointed out - that without someone telling you what to do is largely based on trial and error. The music tech colleges are, on the whole , teaching nothing of worth. Zilch.

Even 200 graduates a year would be enough - but he thousands we have upon the thousands already out there makes it a useless proposition for a college led career. Yo analogy of mech engineers makes no sense - we need mechanical engineers. Oodles of them. We already have all the sound based personnel we could ever want for now and until the last one dies !!

So you kids wanting to get a job in music - you're wasting your time. There is no demand for you. It is something you will greatly regret when you hit 30 unless you are one of the lucky few who can earn.

The same criticism is levied at video stuff. However, the issue is less pronounced - why? Because fame academy an X factor and stupid [ ****** ] MTV hip hop cribs (etc) hasn't given every other young person in the western world a desire for "a piece of the action".


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Arpangel
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #653004 - 03/09/08 06:01 PM
If you want to get into recording, buy some mic's, get out there and look for some work, its there, if you look hard enough, and your keen.
I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory

Tony.


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PaulD



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Posts: 1270
Loc: Bristol UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #653009 - 03/09/08 06:07 PM
Quote narcoman:

The same criticism is levied at video stuff. However, the issue is less pronounced - why? Because fame academy an X factor and stupid [ ****** ] MTV hip hop cribs (etc) hasn't given every other young person in the western world a desire for "a piece of the action".


Hi
Interesting analogy.
There are gazillions of 'Media Studies' graduates who aspire to a researcher job in TV (= producer within 3 months).
But there aren't many competent craft-skills graduates, because although the colleges will dabble in the technologies to give students an overview of production, camerawork or editing no one really professes the end result will be more than a foundation course.

If success = Guy Ritchie, then zilch chance.
But there are (a few) jobs out there for enterprising self-skilled 'offline' Final Cut editors, and (a few) for gofers in the lighting/grips/camera assistant field - though these may well go to people who had parents in the industry (= who you know...).

The trouble is EVERY adolescent teenager aspires to music as a brand-specific 'rite-of-passage' - just as the 'correct' t-shirt or trainers are de rigeur. And every music-obsessed teenager with inadequate performance skills regards 'music-tech' as their salvation.

Education should be about taking individuals beyond this juvenile stage, to some sort of real-world career-progress development - but often fails.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Arpangel]
      #653050 - 03/09/08 08:18 PM
Quote arpangel:

I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory




Except that if you worked in a factory you'd be able to afford to eat and possibly even to live in house with a roof.

If you try to set yourself up as a recording facility you'll not earn enough to live... and even if you are lucky enough to do that would you really be able to afford the insurance, the repair and replacement costs of equipment, your tax, or contribute towards a pension for your old age? I don't think so.

The truth is that there are now so many people out there fresh out of college with a laptop and some cheap samson mics, that no one is charging a realistic rate. Every one is undercutting everyone else just to get some work. Rates have fallen through the floor and no one wins.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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JamesSimpson



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653062 - 03/09/08 09:27 PM
A question? Does everybody see it as this will continue over an over with a degrading cycle with mediocre "studios" putting out mediocre "products" that are glossed over with a sheen that plug ins give to cover up the mistakes.

Or will there be a cut off point where everybody realises there is no money in this and its not a quick and easy route to fame and fortune. And the sound quality of records will go up again? Due to a few select individuals with excellent sounding rooms, learned mic technique etc....

Obviously nobody can predict, but some speculation could be fun.....or disheartening.

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


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Setter
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #653070 - 03/09/08 09:52 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote arpangel:

I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory




Except that if you worked in a factory you'd be able to afford to eat and possibly even to live in house with a roof.

Hugh




Arpangel's idea works (just about) as a part time job while the kids are at school. Get the capital from your last redundancy from a 'proper job' and send partner full time out to earn a proper wage. I can't see any other way of making it work.

Of course interpersonal skills are possibly more important than technical genius as there is a need to get the network of teachers, conductors and amateur administrators on side.

J


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. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #653092 - 03/09/08 11:27 PM
expect an increase in dross, and don't hold your breath waiting for the upswing....


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J-M



Joined: 21/02/05
Posts: 133
Loc: Belfast Rock City
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: stevie j]
      #653103 - 04/09/08 12:21 AM
Quote stevie j:


Of all the music tech student's/grads I know, there's only one that I know of who actually works in pro audio. He posts on this forum.






Blatant "Thats me" post right here I think!

But I took advantage of the modest opportunities offered too me, learned as much as I could, and used the contacts I made during my time as a (gasp) Music Tech Student to gain full time employment with a large pro audio company.

But also worked my ass off for free or even at my expense at every opportunity doing anything I could.

Two or Three people from my class are now working in Junior (but serious) roles within the industry. Must have been a good bunch!

Live industry is a different story to the recording world though, there are more opportunities to start at the bottom.

Quote stevie j:



Amy Winehouse's sax player.




Did he look like Hank Marvin? He was in Mandella Hall a couple of Fridays ago. He was fully on the pull like.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7790
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #653120 - 04/09/08 06:57 AM
Quote narcoman:

Quote JamesSimpson:

I'm not sure this thread needs locking at all, I think a lot of it seems open minded discussion. Its never got nasty or personal. If anything a cut down version could be done with being made sticky.




def not. Everyone's being very nice about it all. No nasties..let's keep it that way !!




At the time I posted the suggestion, we had been "reworking the clay" for quite a while.
Not sure we aren`t still merely doing that.
After all, nobody has come up with anything outside what has already been discussed to death.
Still, it beats reading the Mac forum....

(I`ll get my anorak)

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Arpangel
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #653125 - 04/09/08 07:15 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote arpangel:

I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory




Except that if you worked in a factory you'd be able to afford to eat and possibly even to live in house with a roof.

If you try to set yourself up as a recording facility you'll not earn enough to live... and even if you are lucky enough to do that would you really be able to afford the insurance, the repair and replacement costs of equipment, your tax, or contribute towards a pension for your old age? I don't think so.

The truth is that there are now so many people out there fresh out of college with a laptop and some cheap samson mics, that no one is charging a realistic rate. Every one is undercutting everyone else just to get some work. Rates have fallen through the floor and no one wins.

Hugh




Fair point Hugh, maybe live sound engineering is the way to go ? Seeing as record companies cant sell recorded music anymore, the only way to make money will be playing live, and those gigs will still need mixing.

Tony.


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653144 - 04/09/08 08:33 AM
Leaving multimedia and live out of this equation and only concentrating on general recording/mixing/producing I can honestly say, and I know I speak for a number of us, that some of us have our own businesses, write books, write articles for magazines, teach, work as consultants, engineer and produce and we just about make ends meet, and almost all of us have qualifications coming out of our coolos.

This is evident in the number of studios we have had to let go and in the amounts of gear we have offloaded (more to do with cost cutting than the software switch over).

We are, as they say, at the shitty end of the industry. The back room clan if you will.

The nature of the industry both in terms of technological advances and migrations and change of mindset has created a state that is rife for those less scrupulous to make a mint.

No matter how you look at it there are only a handful of institutions and qualifications worth considering and even then a qualification simply means that......err....that you are qualified....it is not a prerequisite to gaining employment in this industry, especially 'this' industry, unlike plumbing, carpentry, economics, medicine, engineering etc..

I cannot think of an industry with a worse ratio of applicants v vacancies.

The only way around this problem is to marry the qualification with something useful like business etc and then to think laterally, i.e. not think of just being an engineer or megastar like Hugh, but to work in other areas of the industry.

I abhor the way these Mickey Mouse outfits fleece money from kids through poor standards and with the promise of employment.

And it is our social and moral obligation to tell you that you need to really think this vocation, and the education attached to it, through with a clear mind.

If you sieve the member base here at Sos and leave only the professionals and the ones that earn a decent living from their vocation then you will see that we are in very low figures and hugely in the minority.

Learn and qualify in something more secure and enjoy this industry as a strong hobby and if it breaks for you then great.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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James PerrettModerator



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Posts: 10646
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #653147 - 04/09/08 08:46 AM
Quote Zukan:


I cannot think of an industry with a worse ratio of applicants v vacancies.





I don't know how it compares to our business but marine biology is actually pretty bad. There are plenty of people who like the idea of becoming marine biologists and plenty of degree courses but very few jobs. Unlike music tech, marine biology is considered a serious academic course which won't look bad on your CV if you apply for a job unrelated to your degree.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #653151 - 04/09/08 08:48 AM
Yeah, I forgot the porn industry too James.

And the course is very hard.



--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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James T Bigglesworth
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #653239 - 04/09/08 12:23 PM
Quote Zukan:

Yeah, I forgot the porn industry too James.

And the course is very hard.






Stiffest audition I ever had...

--------------------
"Over fifteen years without a slogan"


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IvanSC



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653249 - 04/09/08 12:51 PM
Not really - viagra changed all that.

My daughter appears to have found an even worse field, though - acting.

That & buggy whip manufacturing would appear to be the nadir these days...


Trouble is, you can`t put a weise, cynical, experienced head on young shoulders. They have to make their own mistakes for themselves, unfortunately.
... and then of course they come on here in PART DEUX whining about how there is no work even for a Highly Qualified Graduate like themselves.

*sigh*

P.S. I used to be one of the ones that made a fairly decent living out of the music industry over a period of 30 odd years.
Wierdly, now I have decided to retire, the phone keeps ringing with offers of paid work, so you youngsters MUST be doing something wrong - surely there must be some of you big enough to fill the "old guard`s" collective shoes?

We don`t ALL bop till we drop....

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Akronist



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Loc: Cardiff, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653375 - 04/09/08 03:58 PM
Hi All,

In the past, i've been in a position whereby i wanted to 'devote my life' to music, and after finishing my A-Levels, was looking to start one of these courses. Prior to that, i contacted all the studios in my local area for work experience/placement vacancies, but as has always been the case, they were extremely hard to come by (in this instance, impossible).

In the months leading up to me having to make a decision on what i was doing, i spoke to people who'd been on these courses, and also applied a little bit of common sense regarding potential job opportunities. I didn't take the course.

I'm far from knowledgeable enough on the subject to say with any degree of certainty, but it seems to me that the birth of 'academic' courses for Music Technology have resulted in the inability to follow the 'traditional' path of an engineer, at least on the whole.

I think budding young enigneers nowadays are in a bit of a spot regarding their desire to become professional; due to the growing numbers of graduates from these courses, vacancies in studios will always be quickly snapped up, and by following the University route they are subject to exploitation by the educated swine, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I'm just some guy with...a theory (?) i guess...what path should a (sensible)young & ambitious engineer (not me!) follow in these days and times?


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2353
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653392 - 04/09/08 04:31 PM
Electronics or Computer science, or a bit of both with an emphasis on DSP and/or analogue or mixed signal design would be my guess. Possibly try and find somewhere that will let you do this as a Bsc with acoustics or basic physics as an additional set of modules?

Mixing in some business or basic accounting really would not hurt either (boring as it is).

Also get some basic tools and build a whole pile of kits and your own designs, it is good fault finding practise.

If you are going for an engineering (as opposed to wannabe producer) job this would I think give you a far better background then any of the 'music tech' courses would.

Fifteen years ago, I would have said to get thyself to Wood Norton, but that option for a serious audio and RF engineering education has pretty much died with the outsourcing.

Just my take on it.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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