hmmm...

this is a ponder as much as a point, but the amount of snobbery against people just showing an interest in a formal way about something we (should atleast if were buying SOS!) love.

why is it that whenever music technology education is mentioned people are ready to start the witch hunt, or atleast post a snide comment?

OK I realise that it is NOT the way to start a business, does NOT mean anyone will give you a job

but it does mean that people are inspired enough by our area to learn it full time (or part time if that suits them) and that is a good thing in my eyes.

I speak as a 21 year old aspiring engineer, who is currently using his skills in therapeautic education, who went to Confetti in Nottingham, and although didn't learn everything, learned a damn slight more than if I "just got some work experience"

I understand there is NOTHING as good as just doing it. But the ones who just do it, and also learned the science of studio equipment and techniques, are gonna have a damn slight more advantage over the 5956849568495674568746 people who bought a 4 track, recorded one band, then left it in the shed, or hassled some studios into letting them make tea but never got showed how upwards expansion can be used as a subtle alternative to RMS compression on a mix bus.

The only reason I get on my soapbox over some types of education, is because too many kids are being told that there is a possible career out there for them in recording studios.

The likes of SAE and other 'schools' have become remarkably successful, selling an unrealistic dream at inflated prices.

They are cheating young people and denying them a future career at the same time and that is despicable IMO.

They (and some accredited universities!) continue to do this with other subjects, such as TV and similar fashionable media fields, selling a complete pipe-dream that you can become a journalist, DVD tech, cameraman, 3D CGI tech, etc., etc., by just attending a few short courses and paying vast amounts of money.

I certainly do not blame the young for being naive - that is all part of the gig of being young! But I do expect parents, career teachers and employees of accredited colleges to be wise to the facts and not to lie to the young.

Me and Blads vary in our opinions on many things - but in this one important area we are united. Along with many others here.

Joe - the reason we all seem so against it is because of the money grabbing. It costs a lot, you learn FAR more DOING it (and yes - i know all about Confetti, - my brother went there (a waste of time!) and I know the team that set it up very well). For one thing - the knowledge from courses such as those mentioned is WOEFULLY inadequate in a real world (but rare) studio situation. I have a couple of assistants on freelance basis here - they need to able to problem solve electrical issues practically on a daily basis. Not to mention IT stuff - thankfully less since we went 100% MAC a month ago!!

It is grossly unfair to take advantage of young peoples naivety - yes, sorry to be blunt - but young people are easy to lead up the garden path (so are some older folk!). If we tell you you are talented and you have a great future if you just put £20K into your education - you believe us. Personally I think as professionals and older types we have a responsibility to balance the set up. There are hundreds of courses yay-saying all giving great vibes about how great the course is, the amazing facilities and how you can learn to be the best. What they forget to mention is there are - NO JOBS. This matters. Education is NOT for fun. At 20 years old you (quite rightly - i did) want to have a laugh and pursue something you love.

What you don't realise at that age is that wasting your time at 18-25 is a HUGE mistake. You set yourself down a path. Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this. There needs to be limits. Currently there are 1000's of "graduates" every year in the UK alone. They're all being taught stuff you could learn from reading a Cubase manual - for big money. Its a scam. There is no other way to put it.

I've seen - first hand- what passes as "mic' technique" in the course you mention. It is NOT something you can learn in a classroom. You need mentoring. Added to that - we just do not need he number of "engineer types" we have at the moment. Not now and not for a long time. These numbers need capping.

Trying to re-dress the "balance" when the balance is already tipped heavily in the favour of the music tech money spinning colleges is definitely something that doesn't need doing. Look at the bigger picture before defending the indefensible.

200 and something - the number of CVs and/or work requests I've had this year.
600+ : the number of CDs I've had from acts wanting placing on media product.

Doesn't this tell you something? You should see what Abbey Road gets!!

Just to add to this, there is nothing inherently wrong with offering a music technology (or technological music) course, as long as it is not sold on an unrealistic premise.

The problem is that rather then offer these short courses as part of a continuing education curriculum (Which IMHO would be legitimate), they are offered as a route into an industry.

I also find the (from what I have seen) general lack of academic rigour troubling as it tends to mean that extrapolating to other jobs works poorly at best, because in most cases the underlying theory is not sufficiently emphasised. There are exceptions, I am talking about the 'trade schools' here, not the serious degrees.

The rather alarming emphasis on shiny kit and high end software is also a little worrying as IMHO for any given 90 percent of the industry whatever shiny you learned is totally irrelevant. Very few people make their money with an SSL J these days, and they are mostly the guys fixing the ones at the recording schools.... By and large the same thing goes for any particular software tool or workflow, learn the principles and a wide variety of practise, not just protools.

The reality is that even in my game (Theatre sound, among other things), I get a steady stream of CVs and work experience requests, what I am looking for is demonstrated interest in the field, attention to detail (Your computer has a spell checker, use it on the application letter), engineering know how (can you solder, can you hack the math) and can you play an instrument at any grade(a good indication of musical chops). Having done a recording course is not on my list of desirables, having done a pile of audio work in your own time is (And for the cost of that course you can buy a recording chain far better then anything the beetles used and some books and a whole pile of media, record bands, record nature, record room tone, record your kids, your parents, your grandparents, mix live, mix theatre, remix, mix classical, mix film, there are loads of opportunities to play for no money, take them)!

You will likely learn far more, and build a better CV then one that just says attended such and such recording school.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

yup.

My least favourite sentence : "I have a passion for music".... I read that EVERYWHERE. What it means to me is "I wanna work in your place and use the studio downtime to do my music" - not what I want to hear. On the occasions I want people here - I want people who are ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY interested in the technical side of things. I don't want a producer wannabe!!

moving on....

Interestingly enough - the same barriers exist for many people with "tech school" diplomas in other fields, as well.

For instance - it's all well and good for you to get a certificate for programming in "pascal" - which many people did in the early 90's and were employable at the time.

However, when the industry shifted directions, the "tech school" people either had to completely retrain, or hopefully rely on some work experience that broadened their horizons.

The truth of the matter is that learning how to use a flavour of software (recording or otherwise) does not a career make.

That's not to say that there aren't tech schools out there that teach a proper foundation in skills, problem solving, creativity, etc. What the folks here seem to be saying is that those programs are few and far between. And - the idea that a grad of even a great program is going to be magically employable by "the man" is rubbish.

I think the biggest complaint from the "old guard" is the fact that music tech school grads seem inevitably convinced they are going to get a "job" out of it. I mean that in the traditional sense - where you work for an employer who pays you a salary/wage. Can a great engineer and/or talented artist carve a spot in the market for their skills? Undoubtedly yes. But it seems almost always as a result of their out-of-tech-school skills (i.e. business, marketing, etc). And the hard work. The old guard you refer to knows that a free ride doesn't exist and rightfully tries to point that fact out to the less experienced.

Just my 2 cents - which are probably worth less than 2.

Lane

I have had the pleasure of working with both people who have had music tech education and also with people who just went the tea boy route.

And to be honest, it was all good!

maybe i got lucky, i dont know.

I guess, for me it comes down to the fact that some people are not easy to work with and others are.

whether you are succesful, i think has little to do with having/not having music tech education.

its like the stories about people who have parents who were alcoholic:

1 child says "they were, so then I will be too"

the other child says:

"they were alcoholic and so im not going to touch a drop"

its completely down to how you see things.

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Music Marketing Online

Quote Joe_caithness:

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hmmm...
or hassled some studios into letting them make tea but never got showed how upwards expansion can be used as a subtle alternative to RMS compression on a mix bus.

---

But therein lies the rub. Frankly I couldn't give a toss about upward expansion or RMS compression on a mix bus and nor could most (well actually all) of my clients. Making a good cup of tea and getting them ready to give a fantastic performance that is going to sound great so they are happy to pay up, want to come back and will recommend the studio to all and sundry is what matters.

Perhaps one of the reasons the old guard get a bit irked by all the music tech courses is the lack of business reality and that pointing this out seems to constantly fall on deaf ears. It's the music business we're in. The one does not survive without the other.

From a personal point of view, there are massive gaps in my music tech knowledge, but the ones in my business knowledge are the ones that need filling first.

It's the Witch, not the wand, to nick a quote from Insider Audio.

- Joe -
Rockrooms Studio

Quote narcoman:

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I want people who are ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY interested in the technical side of things. I don't want a producer wannabe!!
moving on....

---

Oh god, YES!

You get them in theatre as well, but I think they are worse, they tend to be wannabe authors or directors...

Guess who is mysteriously absent at 3AM during the load out (When you want the inexperienced cassies to push boxes to the truck)?

For some reason I have found that classically trained dancers sometimes make very good techs (You have to teach the board operation and the like but they seem to tend to have the mindset for it).

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

Quote JC LA:

---

I have had the pleasure of working with both people who have had music tech education and also with people who just went the tea boy route.

And to be honest, it was all good!

maybe i got lucky, i dont know.

I guess, for me it comes down to the fact that some people are not easy to work with and others are.

whether you are succesful, i think has little to do with having/not having music tech education.

its like the stories about people who have parents who were alcoholic:

1 child says "they were, so then I will be too"

the other child says:

"they were alcoholic and so im not going to touch a drop"

its completely down to how you see things.

---

the quality of the people isn't really the issue. It's the ruddy QUANTITY. 4000 grads a year chasing 10 or 20 jobs. That's it. There are something like 50,000 music tech grads in the UK alone. No where NEAR anything like that figure of total employment.

Quote narcoman:

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Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this.

---

I don't know of any higher education subjects where numbers are capped according to likely future employment demand. Certainly would be an interesting picture if that were the case across all subjects - massive upheaval it would be.
People are entitled to aim to study what they like, although they should go into it fully cognisant of the facts.
If a course provider makes a false promise or claim than that is a behaviour independant of subject, it is bad/maybe immoral/maybe illegal practice that should be dealt with. Same with standards of tuition where public money is involved.

Quote Neil C:

---

Quote narcoman:

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Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this.

---

I don't know of any higher education subjects where numbers are capped according to likely future employment demand. Certainly would be an interesting picture if that were the case across all subjects - massive upheaval it would be.
People are entitled to aim to study what they like.
If a course provider makes a false promise or claim than that is a behaviour independant of subject, it is bad/maybe immoral/maybe illegal practice that should be dealt with.

---

Absolutely. No subjects are capped yet. I'm of the opinion that perhaps they should be. There should be limited places - which was more the way when education in universities where nationalised.... THIS is the problem with privatized Unis and colleges. Profit comes first, rather than the REAL interests of the young....

Quote Rockrooms:

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Making a good cup of tea and getting them ready to give a fantastic performance that is going to sound great so they are happy to pay up, want to come back and will recommend the studio to all and sundry is what matters.

---

Agreed. To my knowledge, THAT aspect is not taught and in many circumstances, that is often more important to the job (and keeping it and getting asked back) than anything else. You can be a f'king genius but if you're an objectionable, arrogant, opinionated twat, people won't want to work with you even if you can deliver the goods (the worst scenario being if you're an objectionable, arrogant, opinionated twat and CAN'T deliver - a gobby shite merchant in other words. Sadly, far too many of those around!).

You are there to keep your client(s) happy. It should be a given that you can do that at a technical level - the 'social' side, however, is another matter and you must be as skilled in that as much as anything else ... sorting out a stroppy guitarist or producer in a studio, working towards avoiding the prima donna lead vocalist storming off stage at a live gig you're mixing, reacting favourably to delivery time on a project when the project manager brings the deadline two weeks forward and so on ... and handling those situations as diplomatically as possible.

Quote Rockrooms:

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Perhaps one of the reasons the old guard get a bit irked by all the music tech courses is the lack of business reality and that pointing this out seems to constantly fall on deaf ears.

---

Yup. I don't know how many threads we've had of this nature here but still they crop up with alarming regularity. And almost every time someone asks for honest opinions from experienced people on the matter, they invariably don't want to hear them when they get them ... and then invariably the claim that the old farts are protecting their jobs follows swiftly afterwards.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

They should first take an Economics course and learn the basics of supply and demand.

I don't mind people (who after all pay some fees for it these days) taking a year or so out to learn something about as useless as Ancient Greek or Latin.

I do mind so-called educators making false claims about how they have all these industry contacts which will help you get a job, because that's just bollocks. (Somebody will now pipe up and say he got a job. Well good. Now let's talk about the other 4,999).

Some courses also make dubious claims about how much hands-on time you get with the toys, and fail to mention that there are 30 people queuing up for every spare bit of downtime. Some courses are equipped, if that's not too strong a word for it, with ageing, well-dodgy gear. I've got a graduate from a very highly esteemed course with me right now who claims that devoting an entire term to midi was the biggest waste of a few months of his life he could possibly imagine. I could go on.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote A Non O' Miss:

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They should first take an Economics course and learn the basics of supply and demand.

---

hah!

Perhaps that says it all! nice.

The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.

As for everything else on this thread. Who cares.

In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...

Quote:

---

The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.

---

Actually history has proven music sales to increase when the economy is in a recession.

Quote:

---

In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...

---

??? 9 posts here. Well I see you know it all and have spent considerable time seeing a multitude of posts by all these users. Funny enough, *not including* myself, most of the others posting in this thread are who I would consider to be the smartest on this forum and most worthy of posting good material. The people you actually should listen to. Maybe take some time, look around more, get to know them in an anonymous way, and then pass judgment.

Edited by A Non O' Miss (29/08/08 12:06 AM)

Creepyman

This trainspotting nerd is a moderator, and you signed up to a set of forum rules in which you undertook to refrain from personal abuse.

We can have intelligent discussions and honest disagreements without resorting to personal abuse. Some of us can, anyway.

Consider this a formal warning. Any repetition and you will be banned without further notice.

P.S. the "train set" using my studio as I type is a band with over 30 albums in their discography. I venture the wholly immodest opinion that they and I have earned the right to tell you where to go.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (28/08/08 11:51 PM)

i think in alot of cases you may find that going to university that some of the places may have spent alot money on marketing the course to get you through the door. You can often then find that throughout the year you speak to peers who find themselves saying "the course isn't what I'd imagine it would be".

Providing you have a realistic understanding of how the industry is shaped I don't think there is any problem going down this route, just make the best use of your time and get as much experience along the way. Some of my friends are about to start the third year of their uni course in engineering and haven't had chance to access the studios yet because all the available booking slots always get prioritised to 3rd year students for their final projects and they haven't got enough space to cater for all their students. In the last year I've found myself recording more people working a full time job than some of my friends have had at uni and learning as much just from buying as many books as I can lay my hands on the different subjects. I've found I've also learnt more from being in a band and paying for studio time to work with different producers.

of all the people I know who went to uni to do a production course, the only person who I could say has been a success and has stood head and shoulders above the others was a guy who started recording when he was 15, featured in studio SOS about 7/8 years ago and has recently been tied up recording Funeral for a friends new album. He went to Glamorgan and left after something like a month because he realised he didn't really need to be the course and was starting to get himself in a position to make money from his studio full time and this was about 5 years ago. He started when most bands weren't recording their own demos but he's survived because he very good at what he does.

It can be great for some people but I wouldn't say it's snobbery from the likes of Narcoman or RedBladder, I imagine it would be more of a case of experiencing the situation first hand

all the best anyways man
Jon

*edited slightly because of bad grammar

Edited by Jon Con (29/08/08 12:14 AM)

Quote creepy_man:

---

The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.

As for everything else on this thread. Who cares.

In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...

---

How's over 100million sales grab ya?

How about none of these guys help you out with your other thread on sorting out your sample library. Cannot stand the rudeness slowly finding its way from GS to here. Nip it in the bud.

Go for it Mods. Ban him.... sod the warnings....

While I understand where many of you are coming from with education establishments duping money out of naive youngsters, PLEASE can we have a stop to the abuse that the youngsters get thrown themselves? If you have a problem with the establishment, fight the establishment - not the innocent ones who are merely eager and being pushed into University by their parents (not to mention the government). They may require some direction, as we all do at points in our lives; however I'm sure at the times when you yourselves were there you didn't appreciate tirades of sarcasm.

I think that few parents these days would actually feel happy at the prospect of their children saying "actually Mum, I don't want to go to University. I want to go and wedge myself into a grubby studio where I can work for free and make tea for years on end." And lest we forget, some of these institutes can actually teach people things. Heaven forbid.

Yes, I am one of the ones that got a job.

--------------------
"He that hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." - Robert Browning

As cited above it's the unrealistic prospects that some of these colleges are selling that gets my goat aroused (HUH?)

Try and find the pulse recording college advert on line for a good current example.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote TurboD:

---

While I understand where many of you are coming from with education establishments duping money out of naive youngsters, PLEASE can we have a stop to the abuse that the youngsters get thrown themselves? If you have a problem with the establishment, fight the establishment - not the innocent ones who are merely eager and being pushed into University by their parents (not to mention the government). They may require some direction, as we all do at points in our lives; however I'm sure at the times when you yourselves were there you didn't appreciate tirades of sarcasm.

I think that few parents these days would actually feel happy at the prospect of their children saying "actually Mum, I don't want to go to University. I want to go and wedge myself into a grubby studio where I can work for free and make tea for years on end." And lest we forget, some of these institutes can actually teach people things. Heaven forbid.

Yes, I am one of the ones that got a job.

---

where is the abuse at the youngsters themselves? It's ALWAYS the music tech colleges we have a go at - it's the "youngsters" we're al trying to protect. And very lucky you....

Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.

May the thread continue.


--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

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Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.

---

I deleted my post - couldn't be arsed in rising to his bait ... dunno why I did to be honest!

Banned you say, Zuke? Oh dear - does that mean we also won't be able to read about the 'raw power' he has in the forthcoming SOS interview with him? Shame - I was interested to see how big his train set was!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

I too await with bated breath................

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

---

Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.

May the thread continue.

---

Like the yoda....

How does one become a "sound engineer"? (whatever that means...)
If, nowdays the big studios don't exist and therefore don't hire teaboys/ tape ops, then how a youngster will learn the basics? Working for 2-3 years for free making tea, isn't it roughly equivalent with studying a diploma for lets say 9 months? (in terms of "wasting time" or money or both) In which 9 moths, you'll get to use studios as well as record artists?
There is music and sound for films and adverts and tv (post pro)
there is a thriving live music scene, at least here in london.
there is theatre sound
there is radio
and there is studio work
and education (you can become a lecturer/ technician whatever in one of those establishments, or even better, in studios of music universities.)
sales of music technology equipment?
broadcast engineering?
aren't those valid career paths? how can we say there aren't any jobs out there? Of course there are, but no one will hand them out to you, you got to go, as with any other mother****in' job in the world, and chase it. Plus, you start anyway/ anywhere from the bottom. No one will offer you a position as the general manager of Abbey road studios at the age of 21. Thats where experience comes in. Thats what you gain while you are working. After you get some basic knowledge from education in a relative background. The issue is how fast you'll rise. and its entirely up to the individuals.
Plus some of us we haven't got the luck to own big barns and have loads of space to set up our own free studio with no rent costs/ need soundproofing etc.
From those 6000 graduates of various music tech courses a year how many really know what they want to do? 2000? how many are really talented?200? Yes there are 185 jobs per year out there for those 200 i bet. sure its not 6000 jobs, but not all 6000 want to do that. they learn from their mistakes.
Times and people evolve. its not better or worse than it was before for people that like sound. Thats what i think anyway. Oh, you need contacts and people and this is people skills that you can't teach... and some people have it some not! (certainly not this rude creep_man guy on this thread)
regards
t

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www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub

In my limited experience of being a recording artist in a studio environment (the making of one album and a couple of singles), nothing was more valuable to me and the rest of the band than having, on the other side of the glass, an affable character who never stressed out and thought what we were recording was worth doing.

Next, when we said we wanted to spend two hours recording the earth hum from an old synth through a Sherman, they said 'that sounds fun', and not 'f*** off you audio-retards'

Next, they could fix things with soldering irons, which saved them money and earned our respect in an odd way.

I'm sure that somewhere down the line they were involved with millisec.-accurate release times on their upward expanders, but if they didn't have the above qualities in spades, I wouldn't have given a s**t.

And while I'm here - why do the people who use these threads as an opportunity to blurt out insults always always have abysmal grammar?

What happened to good old fashioned, devastatingly constructed, 'Raffles the gentleman thug' style ravaging wit?

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Oh Dear!

The lies told by the education industry seem to be more ingrained than I had originally thought.

These are the jobs you describe and after them, I have placed the kind of qualifications and experience you will have to have to get them -


"Music and sound for films and adverts"

Tonmeister or study music, followed by some experience with arranging for these fields.

"Live music and Theatre"

Same as for above. Experience is here more important than any qualification.

"Radio"

Music radio is self-op, so nothing there. Radio Four stuff is done by production assistants, so journalism or modern languages or some sort of journalistic study (politics, law, economics, etc.) is usually required. Pushing faders on Radio Four is the first step to a career in journalism, not engineering.

"there is studio work"

Let's see now - there are about 30 full-time commercial studios in the UK, with 60% of all turnover going to the London Big Three. Nearly all done by older freelancers and Tonmeisters.

"and education (you can become a lecturer/ technician whatever in one of those establishments, or even better, in studios of music universities.)"

Ha! Ha! Ha!

"sales of music technology equipment?"

Basic technology qualification (ONC to HND path). Proven sales track-record is vital.

"broadcast engineering?"

BSc in electronic engineering or ONC to HND path.

"aren't those valid career paths? how can we say there aren't any jobs out there?"

Plenty of good jobs out there, but none for graduates of recording courses.

Having done a degree course and now being in live sound (degree was studio based) I have to say that what they taught there was useful to a certain extent. I was more academic at that point in my life so writing essays was something I could do easily. The course also did a fair chunk on acoustics and physics which I find incredibly useful when talking to install guys.

At the end of the day they never said that I was going to get a job in the music industry, they didn't sell the course as being about that.

They did have a brilliant lecturer in the 3rd year who basically told us that there weren't any jobs and if you wanted to work you'd have to fight hard to do it. He should've been in the first year then they could've culled the course down to less people...although given the money aspect they probably don't want to do that! The lecturer was a manager for a producer and a couple of bands.

I do not regret the time I spent at university. There was a lot of fun and frolics, and a lot of time spent messing around in a studio and getting a degree for it. The total enjoyment factor of uni far out-weighed the irrelevance of some of the modules in my opinion. Yeah, maybe I'm 3 years behind where I could've been if I'd gone straight into live sound, but not one regret.

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Did SOS have an article about this subject that I missed? I seem to remember something...

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

IMHO the most important things for success in this industry are likeablility and flexibility, with talent closely behind and luck up there somewhere. It doesn't matter what toys you've used, it's how you get on with people and get the best from them. Flexibility comes from knowing where the opportunities will come from. I started out in a band, became a Tape-op at a large southern hemishpere studio, did a small stint house engineering (before a certain recording school bought out the studio!) and am now working for digital agencies doing sound and music for mini-games and websites. I don't consider myself a roaring sucess sound wise, especially when compared to some of the guys I worked with but I make a living and I enjoy what I do. I think my experience is more typical these days than the tape-op, house engineer, freelance engineer, super-producer career paths that that of the lucky, talented and generally nice people that we see interviewed in SOS.

One other thing I'd like to say. In my experience it's a negative for the engineers/producers to be 'cooler' than the band. Musicians and other performers like to feel like they're the shiniest people in the room, it helps with their confidence. Have a look at the bios of most of the really sucessful engineers out there - Fashion disasters. It also shows that they are more interested in how things are going to sound that the appearance of it all. That job is for the artists and the marketing wonks. Apart from the fact that if you really have a passion for this stuff you won't have the time to go clothes shopping, or to the tatooist. Just an observation. As for me, well I'm a fashion disaster without the major success - perhaps I should overcompensate and dress up a bit?? :-)

Zuke Skywalker! May the force be with you.

(I hope that's supposed to be a light sabre?!)

interesting thread.

havn't had time to read all of these replys yet but two points I want to bring up.


1. ok the course costed me 6000 in fees (plus ones I dont really ever have to pay back in bulk), but if i had 6000 quid before doing it and have set up a business, or got studio equipment to learn I would have bought a naff interface, naff preamps, a load of middle of the road mic kits, and I would have been 18 and had no brain for business.

if you are clever about it, like me and to be fair, few, of my generation of ex music tech students used our student loans, and our spare time to set up our own little project on the go and are now doing their thing, I for one am now teaching the skills I learned at a basic level to kids who have been kicked out of school, to help them express themselves and ease them back into education without them noticing.

my brother is another example, his studio is the perfect balance between music tech knolwedge and general musicians who just want to get involved/do whatever. He is running a , just recently commercial studio in Warwickshire, with a friend of his who also went to Confetti (although my brother went to Lancaster), as well as someone without music qualification but a keen eye for electronics. Between them they have the skills and the contacts to do their thing, but only because they didnt RELY on their formal education.

2. My extremely tounge in cheek comment about upward expansion was basically me saying that not only am I now a hardworking focused (although [ ****** ] at making tea im afraid) engineer, I also know a lot of different techniques, that I can apply if you do hire me on the basis of my portfolio

and to be fair, anyone with half a brain will have spent more time working up a brilliant recording, mixing and mastering portfolio than doing humoungous essays.



I think my main point is this kinda thing is an important entry for many people, although it is often sold as a dream which isnt there, those people who believe that dream, would they really last in the industry as it is!? It's a wheat from the chaff thing as much as anything.

Quote Exavior Music:

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Having done a degree course and now being in live sound (degree was studio based) I have to say that what they taught there was useful to a certain extent. I was more academic at that point in my life so writing essays was something I could do easily. The course also did a fair chunk on acoustics and physics which I find incredibly useful when talking to install guys.

At the end of the day they never said that I was going to get a job in the music industry, they didn't sell the course as being about that.

They did have a brilliant lecturer in the 3rd year who basically told us that there weren't any jobs and if you wanted to work you'd have to fight hard to do it. He should've been in the first year then they could've culled the course down to less people...although given the money aspect they probably don't want to do that! The lecturer was a manager for a producer and a couple of bands.

I do not regret the time I spent at university. There was a lot of fun and frolics, and a lot of time spent messing around in a studio and getting a degree for it. The total enjoyment factor of uni far out-weighed the irrelevance of some of the modules in my opinion. Yeah, maybe I'm 3 years behind where I could've been if I'd gone straight into live sound, but not one regret.

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Hear here.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

I don't think any of us older types are saying that a brilliant (or just comfortable) career can not be made by someone who has attended one of the courses.
It just seems that the courses are sold on a false premise (that there are engineering jobs and that attending their course will get you one) and most people will be disappointed. Also, that the money is most likely to have been better spent elsewhere - maybe you could get value through personal networking but I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do that for youngsters. In my opinion, you would be better off buying the wrong equipment and learning through experience why it's wrong than attending most of the courses. It's actually quite hard to buy the wrong stuff these days, anyway. In fact, from what I've seen these courses are doing a huge dis-service by emphasising gear - one thing I've learned in this day of digital is that limitations are a blessing. They aid creativity and improve focus.
Of course, as we go on and the only people around are those who have attended courses then any bias against them may change, as is obvious from this thread and others no one likes being told that their decisions have been wrong - this still will not make the whole rotten system any less of a rip off for the vast majority who feel there is any sort of career path for them apart from whatever they make up themselves.

Thats better.

It's like the housing market, it will eventually devour itself to the point where the only real jobs left are teaching people for those jobs. Where's the actual music/sound in all of that?

Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway? Particularly in regard to modern music and the kids who listen to it.
The industry is so sterile now that the only sexy link in the whole chain seems to be the videos.
The rest of it just seems like an assembly line. I could be totally wrong of course, (I occupy my own little world as an engineer, working only with people I like and spending most of my time desperatly trying to get my career as a musician off the tarmac) but sitting behind a desk stuck between a producer a company executive and a lawyer all deciding how the record should sound doesn't sound like fun at all. Regardless of the money.
If you're doing the course to explore how the technology works and apply it to your own plan (like I did) great. Otherwise. Meh.
Be a music video director instead and spray Rhianna with a giant hose.

Oh, and I'm by no means 'old guard'.
I live in Ireland and there's f**king loads of recording colleges and, like, 6 or 7 big studios. Probably only one of which is any sort of step up to a major career. The first studio I ever recorded in had a tape op who had a masters in electronic engineering. And a city and guilds degree in sound engineering. He's the only guy I've ever met who got an industry job here (he assisted on an REM record, got a credit and everything. I think he was in on a couple of U2 things too). Which qualification do you think hooked him that job?

Edited by Handlestash (29/08/08 11:14 AM)

Red Bladder,

I like people with strong opinions and i don't have a problem discussing but i think you are very strongly opinionated in one side only. And nothing we say/ discuss/ argue in this thread will make you change your mind. If you think that there are plenty of jobs but not for the people who do sound engineering courses fine, be like that, i don't mind.

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www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub

Quote Handlestash:

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Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway?

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It's a long standing myth probably stemming from seeing some engineers hanging around with top players and artists in plush, moodily-lit studios.

For the rest of us, however, 90% of the time (or more) is spent in less salubrious premises having to be nice and friendly to talentless tosspots who are blaming their lack of playing ability, songwriting skills and total lack of rehearsal on you for making them sound like shite (which will invariably be followed by a dispute over the bill!). That was my experience when I ran a studio a few hundred years ago and which was why I got out of it. Even when working in 'top' studios, it wasn't that different - just nicer gear and surroundings ... and worse tea!

Same doing live mixing - mixing a band at the dingy 'Dog and Duck' is a far cry from Wembley!!

Doing what I do now is highly enjoyable (if a bit mundane sometimes) ... for a certain percentage of time. A lot of it is filling out spreadsheets, etc., documenting what my client is getting. Hardly rock and roll!!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Handlestash:

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Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway? Particularly in regard to modern music and the kids who listen to it.

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i should think they assume that "sound engineer" is a fancy name for producer (= Dr Dre).

plus for those of us who failed miserably as a creative part of the industry - whether through laziness, or otherwise (was always my achilles heel) - the idea of just being in a studio all day sounds better than working in an office.

i count myself lucky that i posted here regarding the issue before i paid a vast sum for a recording course. sure, it would have been fun, and i would have been able to run Pro-tools at the end of it, but it wouldn't have gotten me a job. because there aren't any jobs out there.

maybe we should put a big notice up on all the forums saying to do a search before posting? it would avoid having the same old bunfight again and again and again...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

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i count myself lucky that i posted here regarding the issue before i paid a vast sum for a recording course. sure, it would have been fun, and i would have been able to run Pro-tools at the end of it, but it wouldn't have gotten me a job. because there aren't any jobs out there.

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May I repeat; I am on a course, and I have a very good job in a very reputable studio. There are always jobs there if you're open-minded, good at what you do and very hard-working - even if it's not in a recording studio. Surprisingly, not everybody on a sound technology course wants to be holed up recording bands.

My course has taught me an awful lot of theoretical background that I would not have learned in a studio. Yes, it may not be immediately relevant, but I feel much more informed and more confident in the studio environment for knowing these things. It also means I can fix things.

However, even more important than that is that I have gained literally hundreds of contacts through the institute, many of which have led to paid work which gives me not only experience but reputation. I also have the option of working in a whole bunch of different fields.

I DO understand why going straight into a studio at 16 is a very good idea and that learning through experience is the best way forward. So why can't you do both; a University education with its benefits, accompanied by work between times?

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"He that hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." - Robert Browning

I really cant believe that there is such negativity towards the courses and learning methods mentioned in this post, especially as this is the SOS forum we are on is it not?

If all of these courses are of no use or a complete waste of time then why do they exist?

And more importantly, if indeed they would be of no advantage to anyone why would the SOS magazine include 10 pages of tuition/programming and course adverts within their magazine each month?

I think what we all need to consider here is that it's 2008 and the industry doesn't work like it used to. Yes maybe 10 or 20 years ago it was advisable to dedicate your time to an employer as the "Gofur" in the hope of getting somewhere but times have changed and technology is evolving rapidly so modern music making techniques now require people that can carry out these processes both quickly and efficiently. That is why these courses exist.

And from an employers point of view today you can't seriously say that if they were to advertise for a job vacancy that they would offer the job to the person without the grades over the one with? That's not business like at all. We all know a bit of paper is worth nothing but the stuff printed on it is the currency of ANY job in todays world, that's just the way it is now!

The simple fact is that anyone wanting to learn how to become a producer, engineer etc needs somewhere to learn. If there were no courses where would people learn? At a studio? This I find very hard to believe. Studio time is precious enough to anyone involved so the last thing anyone wants is to spend more time on a project than is needed, time is money.

I'm currently doing an HND in Sound Production at College and can honestly say that it's the most fun and interesting thing I have ever studied. I've been introduced to multitrack recording, sequencing, mixing, editing and live recording, most of which i've never tried before. Aside from the hands on stuff i've also been learning about acoustics and working within the creative industry which i've found extremly interesting. One thing I would also like to add here is that not once has anyone at College told me that there are lots of job opportunities for you once you complete your course, infact it's quite the opposite. Most of my lecturers have said, yes, there are jobs within the industry but it's up to YOU to find these jobs, they don't come looking for you.

I never went into my course under the illusion that it would guarantee me a job in the industry once I complete it. It's the same with any course, this only gives you a helping hand to obtain skills required for working within a given area. The only reason I went into my course was actually to learn these different techniques so that I could try my hand at producing some tracks of my own. If anything I would say College has opened a whole lot of opportunities for me as it's introduced me to more options avaliable to me than I thought. I can also honestly say it's not been a waste of money either. My course tuition fees are funded by the SAAS so i'm actually getting all this knowledge for free! You can't get much better than that folks! Being a student also lets you get a discount from various studio equipment manufacturers and companies so this again has saved me money for creating my own little studio which I was going to do anyway.

Anyways, this post is getting long. I thought I would just give an honest opinion as i'm currently a student myself. I must add that i'm not a typical student, for one i'm probably a bit old...

I'm a 27 year old married home owner who is a Mechanical Engineer to trade with a part time project worker job just now.

Infact looking over that in writing i'm probably the complete opposite of a typical student! Who cares? I'm doing this because I enjoy it and if I make some cash then that's a bonus.

My main objective is to create a few dance tracks that I can play when i'm djing and have at least one person dance to one of them. I'm easily pleased!

Each to their own and feel free to correct anything i've said, I don't hurt easily

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easily pleased...

fun and interesting maybe.

THERE IS NO WORK. As is said countless times - how many people do we need to run the 30 or so full time professional studios in this country?

You CANNOT earn £25K in the music industry unless you have a great CV. Heck, if I only earned £25K, with my mortgage and outgoings, I'd go back to maths.

There isnt work for 4000 grads per year....

Please read some of the previous posts thoroughly. I'm an employer - and I (obviously) work in the industry. Music tech grads are of no use to me. And Abbey Road. And Carling Academy live venues. etc etc etc. Protools isnt hard to use. Neither is RADAR. Or Cubase/Logic. Or an SSL. OR an 88R. Or a ruddy AWS. And as I've said before - it isn't even really the quality - its the shear numbers of you.

The courses exist to make money - not produce useful sound engineers etc etc. Crikey - we just don't need 50,000 unemployed graduates of music tech. The qualifications are of no use whatsoever. The PEOPLE are what is useful.

I just had a brief interview with a young lad today about doing freelance work for me. He seems a great guy. Did a degree in architecture. I liked him, seems like a people person.

Thats is what matters. The skills are piss easy to learn .... this is not a difficult job - (neither for the most part is it glamourous).

Forget it - I'm clearly floggin a dead horse here....

Don't do music tech courses if you want a job in music. Do them because you wan to. Fine - no worries. But don't be under any illusions of what they can do for you - they can do nothing.

Quote tobacco_slammers:

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Yes maybe 10 or 20 years ago it was advisable to dedicate your time to an employer as the "Gofur" in the hope of getting somewhere....

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Is a 'gofur' a bit like a gimp, but in a bear suit?

this thread again, so repetitive, but of course .. we have hopes and dreams

but surely it is obvious, more graduates than jobs

.

but here's an original contribution to these threads ...

given the bashing that the tech courses get let's hear one of the institutions defend themselves? perhaps even in a formal way, a SOS article or something ... come on tech course leaders, your courses get an absolute drubbing here from industry professionals, ex-students and amateurs alike

so, defend yourselves .. or is it all indefensible as some suggest?

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Edited by jellyjim (29/08/08 09:59 PM)

Quote tobacco_slammers:

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And more importantly, if indeed they would be of no advantage to anyone why would the SOS magazine include 10 pages of tuition/programming and course adverts within their magazine each month?

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Um, because it's a business and the advertising revenue is important?

"If all of these courses are of no use or a complete waste of time then why do they exist? "

A very good question. Not that long ago, before music tech courses even existed as higher education, only about 10% of people went to university in the UK. Some pure music degrees had a small technical content, and things like the Surrey Tonmeister course evolved.

Tony Blair then decided everyone shall have medals. Or, specifically, decreed that 50% of people will go to uni. A-level grades were diluted to achieve this (such that many unis no longer regard A-levels as trustworthy). Money was thrown at the (largely imagined) "problem" in the name of education, education, education.

People did not want to read serious academic subjects. They needed the bribe of fun (as well as time-honoured perks like sex and drink) to turn up. Otherwise targets would not be met.

What were once vocational subjects, learned on the job (and therefore dependent on employers recruiting only enough people to fulfil expected future demand) were academic-ised. Who cares if there are no jobs, we'll hit the targets!

And then there was money. To attract state funding, students had to be attracted. More boxes with flashing lights were bought. Commerical colleges also sprouted all over the place. Nobody was doing a whole lot throughout this period of fervent activity to train competent lecturers, although there are some.

Booting failing students off courses, especially foreign ones who pay higher fees, became taboo. Lose a student, and you lose some state funding. Honest academics who tried to do this got themselves overruled by byzantine university politics. All Will Have Prizes: the government has spoken. And therefore you have to do something really spectacular not to get a degree. Hence employers treat all such degrees with contempt, however hard you worked for it. The currency has been devalued, in Zimbabwean proportions.

So money, basically. And too many people with vested interests unwilling to point out the blindingly obvious fact that the emperor has no clothes.

Sadly this phenomenon is by no means confined to music tech courses...

Why should an SOS website host this debate? Well I didn't start it, and anyway I am no more SOS than 99.9999% of forum members. SOS gives us a space to exchange views, and I'm not aware that its advertisers have ever sought to stop us doing that.

But if I had anything to do with SOS editorial policy, I'd probably be broadly in favour of giving people reasonably honest, accurate information before they made decisions which could cost them thousands of pounds and maybe waste years of their lives, all based on false hopes.

I genuinely think what is happening is a national scandal.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I know a lot of more experienced people here have a different opinion than mine and that's perfectly alright with me. You obviously did things differently to get where you are today and fair play to you.

I'm just giving a point of view from someone on a course just now and I personally have found it to be of great use to me and not a waste of my time or effort. I may have different expectations from others who join courses but I can't speak for them.

I think jellyjim's idea could finally put this debate to an end...

Quote jellyjim:

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given the bashing that the tech courses get let's hear one of the institutions defend themselves? perhaps even in a formal way, a SOS article or something ... come on tech course leaders, your courses get an absolute drubbing here from industry professionals, ex-students and amateurs alike

so, defend yourselves .. or is it all indefensible as some suggest?

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This would make this topic more of a learning curve for us all

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easily pleased...

Quote narcoman:

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The skills are piss easy to learn .... this is not a difficult job

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

I'm not sure it will - there are a few academics who usually chime in on these discussions, but maybe they too are wearying of it all now.

It's good you enjoy your course, but let's be clear: there's a shedload of public money going into teaching people how to have an interesting and rewarding hobby, in nearly all cases.

If I proposed setting up an Oxford degree course in railway modelling with public funds, how far do you think I would get? I could possibly credibly argue that 0.5% of graduates might, like Eric Marshall, end up with a viable tourist attraction for their efforts and this could make a valuable contribution to our "heritage industry". Do you think this would work?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Steve, you may jape about these things ... but after a long chat with a very stressed sister of mine who is on the accreditation board for a certain well-known west London uni, you might stop making jokes like that and just weep for the future instead ...

Back on topic and responding to the original post, it sort of _has_ to be the old guard who are 'anti-course' as they are the last few people who had formal engineering education and can make the correct assessments. THAT's the whole point!

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

The "old guard" is mumbo jumbo. I agree with all of them and I'm in my 20's and had no formal training once so ever in music. However I have been through Uni and can say that pretty much regardless the course it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Good life experience, but a lot of money to learn things usually easier and better learned on your own.

Everyone is getting upset at their stance and how passionate they are in their opinions. What people are failing to realize is that they are the ones showing the most concern and care for the younger generation. Somehow a lot of people have this belief that it is the other way around, that instead they are fearing their jobs or positions?? HAHAHA

The schools and government want money, so they are not going to paint the full picture or overly emphasize the poor state and really nor should we expect them to. The educated people here are trying to make it blatantly obvious to anyone who may be browsing these forums of all the risks associated with these courses just to make sure they understand what they are getting into. These are important life decisions that can waste many years and lots of money that can be better put towards other things. That is all that can be done. They can warn and offer advice and then hope that smart decisions are being made.

What we shouldn't do is look upon them as the "old guard" or miserable old gits who are more concerned about protecting their buts. We should thank them for their candor and bluntness and put extra weight in their words.

If you don't like what they say then simply use it as motivation to prove them wrong. But be prepared for the old I told you so if it doesn't turn out.

People get warned all the time about smoking, the only benefit is early death. Yet there is money to be made so cigarettes are still produced and people still smoke them. This is the World we live in.

Edited by A Non O' Miss (30/08/08 12:58 AM)

If the Old Guard, as so eloquently put, have their traditional formal education and experience to draw from, then they are entitled to make an informed argument. But students should also be allowed to make their informed arguments without being basically called hobbyists.

People rattle on about human skills, and how they're much more important than the degree. Well, I can say quite truthfully that for most people at uni, the degree is for 90% of the time the lowest priority. This is even true on an academic music course as much as a limp-wristed media studies course.

What's more, aside from the solid theory that one (should) leave with, my insitution allowed its students to become fluent in complex bartering for equipment, appeasement of staff members, bureaucracy and trouble-shooting. Furthermore, some of the limitations induced levels of creativity of epic proportions. It took me over three months to arrange for a 24-channel live recording system for use over last christmas, which involved insurance, transport, booking (read: bartering), purchase-orders, repair, failsafing and not a few gentlemen's agreements. Another student managed to get his recreation (score/foley/dialogue and all) of a Hollywood battle-scene into the office of its Hollywood composer!

In the above respect, it is not at all what the institution teaches, but in what the student does for himself, in his own time, with good intentions and with the support of like-minded peers. That is what going to a good institution is about.

It would not have made any difference if my tutor hadn't worked with Abba, Culture Club or the Beach Boys. The same few people would have done their exciting things regardless.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

I know no-one who's priority at Uni wqs nothing other than getting their degree. Those that didn't place it high on importance failed in the first year. I guess that's where the money grabbing Uni's have changed. It is no longer about education - none of this is the students fault. It's the way of the west.

You miss the point, narc. The teaching was there for those that needed it. For entry into the second and third levels of tech, for instance, there was an mandatory introductory theory course. I got 87% coz I did my research at A level, but those who didn't have the theory on entry had that resource to improve.

My real point was the great things that happen when creative people get other people and things to play with, which, let's face it, you could not get on your own for the cost of a bachelor's degree.

(Nevertheless, it would be wrong for me to comment on the suitability of some students for any course)

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Quote Dave B:

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Back on topic and responding to the original post, it sort of _has_ to be the old guard who are 'anti-course' as they are the last few people who had formal engineering education and can make the correct assessments. THAT's the whole point!

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I can't speak for the other old gits here but I haven't had ANY formal training.

What started off as an interest as a young teenager became a passion and later a career decision. Although I had a place at the Welsh College of Music and Drama, I turned it down to go down the road I had chosen because I knew that a formal qualification would be of no use whatsoever. Since that time, I have been in bands, done live PA work mixing for local bands, owned a professional studio, recorded crappy local bands, 'produced' demos, singles and albums for some promising and/or established local bands, written music for TV, done local session work for no-name bands, done London session work for some serious name artists (including playing on some successful singles and albums), written for SOS, taught at Gateway (RIP), designed the UIs for some fairly major products (that you have maybe bought/used), written their manuals and developed sound library for most of the major manufacturers. My current clients are nearly all major American manufacturers.

NOT ONE of these jobs in over 30 years has required me to show my qualifications ... EVER!! Which is just as well ... I don't have any!!

Edited by hollowsun (30/08/08 11:44 AM)

Quote hollowsun:

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Since that time, I have .....

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I should also add...

I started off with a basic knowledge, basic principles I'd learnt from books, magazines (such as they were back then - NOTHING like SOS existed ... neither did the internet of course) or catalogues and brochures, just looking at photos of front panels and figuring out how stuff worked and what the controls were for and/or just fiddling around with gear (sometimes in shops) ... then I acquired further knowledge through experience, watching (or working out) how others did it, through making mistakes (lots of them!!), through working with crappy gear and making the most of it and so on.

And this gradual acquisition of knowledge and the basic concepts over time and a broad range of gear and experiences gave me a more solid foundation than cramming it all at once because I had a chance to put each little nugget of knowledge into practice slowly and surely.

That's MY history - I am pretty sure the other old gits here have similar (maybe identical) experiences.

I think part of the problem these days is that some people want to know everything about everything instantly and look to courses to provide that. It doesn't work like that. You can pretty much learn how a car works in an afternoon but it doesn't mean you can drive one! Similarly, someone can tell you how a compressor works in an hour or less but it doesn't mean you could do a session and record a prima donna vocalist whose dynamics are all over the place (in that situation, a compressor may not be the answer - a diplomatic approach to dealing with the singer's performance technique might be a more appropriate solution!!). EQ is a simple concept as well - doesn't mean you can apply it tastefully. These all take time and experience to know. And even WITH years of experience, you're always winging it and adapting what you know - and sometimes breaking the rules - to suit any given situation.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote thomomatic:

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Red Bladder,

I like people with strong opinions and i don't have a problem discussing but i think you are very strongly opinionated in one side only. And nothing we say/ discuss/ argue in this thread will make you change your mind. If you think that there are plenty of jobs but not for the people who do sound engineering courses fine, be like that, i don't mind.

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why the hell would he change his mind?? he's pretty much right.....


he's not ALWAYS right.... but in this matter his thinking has always been bang on the money.....

I have a PGCE cert ed.

i don't use it . I stopped teaching M-tech to students 7-8 years ago... when all that this thread is covering became blatantly readily apparent to me from that side of the lectern.


some jobs are just too hard to ethically self justify....


it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.




(oh , and this particular member of the old guard studied Electronics and Physics (B.Eng & B.Sc) in between abusing assorted instruments, gigging live, on both sides of the desk, working in assorted studio and broadcast situations , building the odd studio or three, working for various manufacturers, running MI retail operations, and doing a lot of other stuff besides..... even found time to get married and have 5 kids...)


max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Max!:

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it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.

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Ah! The mark of a true gentleman!!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Hi Max!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

watchya daddyo...

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Max!:

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it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.

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Poetry.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Quote hollowsun:

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I can't speak for the other old gits here but I haven't had ANY formal training.

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Yes, but you arrived here in some kind of a pod from Krypton.
I've seen you wearing the 'attire' so don't deny it.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Ok, guys i think you pretty much covered everything, but "the old guard" certainly know their stuff, have vast experience and i never disagreed on that respect. Also some of you studied as well, maths, physics, electronics. all good. i did study electronic engineering, but i was interested in recording bands and making every possible music, and i didn't have any clue about mixing desks, microphones, live sound, frequencies, principles of mixing, compression, reverb and the lot...And old enough not to be able to get a job as a teaboy in a studio...so what were my options? I love music and recording/ mixing so i wanted to pursue this career -even if it is difficult and not well paid at all, who cares- its what i wanted to do! (the only thing that should stop me is my talent or the lack of it, for pursuing this career path) and not some people engineers or not saying "no jobs! bad education go and be a boring accountant, that's what you deserve to be! " that's not the attitude guys!

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www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub

I strongly agree with steve hill's earlier comment about 'we can all go to university'! As a secondary music teacher this is the bottom line - 'bums on seats to bring in the dough'. Just think about all the other dubious courses out there in 'universities' up and down the land. Tertiary education has been diluted for a political reason. I believe (some) music tech courses are a part of this.

Also, knowledge and learning it is a continuous procedure, never ends. I would never claim that a graduate of any degree, academic or private, the best or the worst (SAE in my opinion) once he graduates, he knows everything! Certainly not. Every day i learn. the fact is that doing a degree helps you understand certain things and digest information about acoustics, electronics, and all that, like maths and physics that without a degree i would not be able to understand. even if i was reading magazines and books and everything else. We cannot dismiss education completely, simply in the basis that a certain government that was supposed to be "Labour" with social politics, in fact sells out on every aspect of our life! health, education, housing, everything is part of money making procedure and profit! we cannot simply say to people don't study its a waste of time. If we dont like it, we have the option to leave the country, start an armed revolution, or vote someone else that we think we trust. Steve Hill's post certainly is right 100% thats what happened to universities, from this government. It would have happened with any other government as well. But its all part of the problems of modern life and politics...

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www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub

Quote Zukan:

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Yes, but you arrived here in some kind of a pod from Krypton.
I've seen you wearing the 'attire' so don't deny it.

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I told you not to tell anyone Zuke. My cover is blown!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

I think there are two very separate issues that are in danger of being confused and merged.

One is the notion that that some form of music-tech related tertiary education will lead, inevitably and with minimal self-effort, to a fantasic job in the music biz.

That is clearly utter nonsense, and is grossly misleading and damaging.

As has been pointed out, the number of annual course graduates exceeds the number of paying jobs across the entire industry by several orders of magnitude.

Of course, the very best one or two from each course may well find appealing work and do well -- the cream always rises to the top -- but most will be hugely disappointed and have acquired limited technical skills to help them secure work in other areas. Yes, they will have matured as a person and become more self-reliant, and may have developed some useful inter-personal skills along the way -- which is all well and good and a large part of the university experience -- but none of that is going to have much significance on a CV.

The other side of the coin is learning about music technology for the love of it....

In this case, though, we are esentially taking about hobbyists and the idea of running up the kinds of debt that most 'university' students do over three or four years just to further their hobby interests is, for anyone without millionaire daddies, utter madness!

It has been suggested many times here that anyone with a bit of intelligence and perserverence will gain more and spend less by buying some equipment of their own, experimenting, and reading the relevant magazines and books (which can be borrowed from libraries). I would support that argument as a far more cost-effective way forward -- but it does require self motivation to go out and find the information and advice for yourselves, rather than have it handed over on a worksheet.

Check out the background of most current pros, and that's what most of them did. Very few have had any significant formal training -- and while I am a strong supporter of formal training, there are very, very few univeristies/colleges to be able to do it right in a way that I would trust and be prepared to spend my own money on.

The only thing missing from this approach is the mentoring aspect and the ability to look over the shoulder of a pro -- but I'm not convinced in the ability of most colleges to provide this to any great degree anyway.

Instead, much can be gained from analysing how pros do their jobs. Watch Live from Abbey Road, for instance, and think about why they have positioned the musicians as they have, why they are using the mics they are and why they have placed them where they are... Forums are useful places to ask questions and gain advice too -- but be analytical about who is asnwering the questions, and weight thir opinions accordingly. Music tech education is worryingly close to the blind leading the blind in so many cases.

But as someone else has said, you should always be learning -- I certainly still am and I still love doing so.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Wildly off post, but forgive me...

I'm with Hugh; I drive my family to distraction by watching music shows on the box to look at what kit is being used, how it's placed on stage etc. etc. It's when I start talking about the reverb and compression though that things get really tense!

What a SOG I am!

Quote Steve Hill:

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God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!

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Oh dear -- I think I've just passed the Geek test!

Actually, I watch it for the music (loved Chick Corea last night) but couldn't help notice the cobniation of Shure SM7 and Royer ribbons on some of the guitar amps, or the 4038 ribbons over the Corea drum kit. And I'm still trying to work out what the organs were (one was Yamaha I think, not sure about the other).

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote Steve Hill:

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God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!

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Oh dear -- I think I've just passed the Geek test!

Actually, I watch it for the music (loved Chick Corea last night) but couldn't help notice the cobniation of Shure SM7 and Royer ribbons on some of the guitar amps, or the 4038 ribbons over the Corea drum kit. And I'm still trying to work out what the organs were (one was Yamaha I think, not sure about the other).

hugh

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Did you see the "Black Keys" one? I'm no fan of the band, but man - the vocals and guitars sounded amazing .... very "Toe Rag" if y'like.

Quote Steve Hill:

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God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!

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what else is there to watch it for!?

me and my brother often discuss this over whatever crap is on that week!



can I play devil's advocate and suggest these two statements are as damaging as eachother, baring in mind I am an ex Musi c Tech student who know works in the industry using his skills:

"there are no jobs to walk into"

"doing a music tech course allows you to walk into a job"

as they are both obviously lies, and like I said, as damagin g as eachother.


Let me give you another case study:

a very good friend of mine (who i know through all my bands recent records being produced by me and him at his studio, incidentally), left Confetti after a HND, did pretty well, and while we was doing this, bought up the gear as he learned it, set up a studio in his house, gained a rep (please note, alongside his course). When his course was over he had saved money, bought gear, gained contacts, he then moved it out into a unit armed with these things:

technical knowledge of industry standard gear (education)
his own industry standard gear (off his own back)
contacts from the course (and work infact) (education)
contacts from his home studio (off his own back)


and he is after one year looking at setting up studio 2 at a new unit.

my point?

in a climate which is not friendly for "lets make a recording studio and try and make a living", he has used BOTH the traditional and educational to his advantage, and shrugged off the negatives of both..

I think my closing point, and hopefully what I tried to achieve by provoking this argument is that times are/will/have changed, and not always for the better, but blank, ill-informed statements from either side are inhenrinlty damaging as they are fustrating.

Like a lot of things, striking a balance is going to work best (although not often in "combination technology", but thats another nerd debate!).

And as a 21 year old who has a job within the industry (although a very new sector) off the back of using course learned stuff as a foundation, and the bulk off my own back, I am not feeling this "THERE IS NO JOBS" thing at all, and therefore am seeing a lot of blokes with beards not willing to adapt, whether this is true or not!

Well - as an employer I'm TELLING you there are no jobs. It's just not open to debate. Of course there are a FEW jobs... stands to reason. but with over 4000 graduates a year there are no where near enough jobs to service the outflow. That's 4000 graduates in the UK alone. 30 professional studios don't need 4000 graduates per year. I've shown you how many CVs I've had this year. It's harder to make a living as a recordist than as a musician. MUCH harder.

To say you're "Not feeling it" isn't relavent when you DO have a job. You are one of the lucky few. No beards here - but I work within the employment sector of the industry. there just aren't loads of jobs. There aren't even four hundred new posts a year. 50,000 people chasing VIRTUALLY (there ya go - i've reworded it for ya!!) no jobs. when a marketing student leaves work, you can bet that well over half will get a job in a related sector. Or a law graduate. Or accountancy graduate. Or Mech Engineer, Civil Engineer (nearly 100% rate in that one!!) or computer programmer (again near 100%).

The figures I have seen (and that the music tech colleges will not tell you) is that fewer than 5% find employment in the sector. Not surprising when the whole of the industry is less than 20,000 strong.... and that includes the marketeers and executives!!

Joe your mate didn't get an existing job, he set up his own business.

Lots of us do that. Some succeed, some don't. All sorts of reasons why.

The thing is though that this approach doesn't suit everyone, and its a very different path to the more traditional one of learning 'under' a more experienced engineer.

If anything your example shows that there are no jobs, because your mate, who clearly from what you've said can do a decent enough job, had to employ himself.

J

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www.jackruston.com

An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.

The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.

some students take the course as an interesting side course to more 'academic' qualifications others are passionate about it from the outset and might combine the A level with 'Music A level'.

some progress to Further education and choose a very generic uni course (some because they haven't really decided what they want to do with themselves yet).

Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.

You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.

Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.

One of the biggest problems I see at A level is the quality of tuition. There are many institutions who offer the teaching position of a tech course to a traditional music teacher with no studio experience! through sheer ignorance. The exam boards even run courses to try and get lecturers up to speed. like staying one lesson ahead of your pupils this can't be good and only adds fuel to the fire. and yes I do know Joe satriani has talked about staying one lesson ahead when tutoring Steve Vai but thats different!

There is still a lot of scope around the set specifications to enthuse and educate students, supplying them with valuable and valid skills, that can be applied to many job definitions not just studio engineer.

Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.

Quote RMarshall:

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An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.

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and a riposte from a studio owner and A Level Music Tech examiner...

Quote:

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The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.

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The old scheme did not - it barely scratched the surface and was diluted by being under the wing of the pure Music course(s). It majored on outmoded and (too frequently) incorrect information, and, in some cases, was examined prescriptively in an industry in which there are no prescriptive routes to success (in recording).

Quote:

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Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.

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And should already be making the tea at the local studio, getting as much live experience as he can, and be soldering cables and repairing amps...

Quote:

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You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.

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I'd suggest that the number of CVs that those of us who might (only might, mind) be in a position to offer a job (maybe once in ten years) offers the alternative view - that students do think their degree/A Level will fast track them.

Quote:

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Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.

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What pathway? It simply lumps them in with the however many thousands who have graduated this year!

Quote:

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One of the biggest problems I see at A level is the quality of tuition. There are many institutions who offer the teaching position of a tech course to a traditional music teacher with no studio experience! through sheer ignorance. The exam boards even run courses to try and get lecturers up to speed. like staying one lesson ahead of your pupils this can't be good and only adds fuel to the fire. and yes I do know Joe satriani has talked about staying one lesson ahead when tutoring Steve Vai but thats different!

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Oh, hell, yes... I taught MT in a secondary school, as a bought-in consultant (who also happens to be a qualified teacher), and the school simply wouldn't wear the expense - and I was not charging the earth - simply supply rates. The trad music staff were clueless. Utterly.

Quote:

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There is still a lot of scope around the set specifications to enthuse and educate students, supplying them with valuable and valid skills, that can be applied to many job definitions not just studio engineer.

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Hmmm... I'd argue with that, too. The basics are not there (or are not examined), and re-education for folks is the order of the day.

Quote:

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Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.

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Never going to happen, unfortunately, as schools will take a piece of paper over 30 years of experience, IMHO.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Full Sail?

Ruddy hell, probably the most laughed at course on the planet!!

Let's be realistic. 90% of the places training for A-levels do not have the people or the equipment to do so, and even if they do have some equipment, it's stretched too thin for students to get enough hands-on experience with e.g. trying out compressor settings or whatever.

As for CVs... on the one hand you can't blame students for trying to make themselves look as good as possible. But despite that, I read loads of the things and say to myself "I'm sorry, but this guy is evidently clueless". Then I reflect on how many years and how many thousands of pounds have gone into achieving that result.

Of course the cream will rise to the top. But then what? I know some really good, experienced engineers who are out of work.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote RMarshall:

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An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.

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Funny, when I taught children, I called myself a teacher. When I then went on, several years later, to talk to students at a university, I called myself a lecturer.

Quote RMarshall:

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The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.

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All work processes take place behind closed doors. That does not mean that we make A-Level courses out of, say, glass manufacture, or printing, or operating a JCB.

Quote RMarshall:

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You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.

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With the massive exception of the Surrey Tonmeister course, every single person I have ever met that is working successfully in this industry dot not study Music Technology.

There are three owners of commercial studios taking part in this debate and not one studied MT or even music. All the A&R people I have ever dealt with, studied either business economics or music.

Quote RMarshall:

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Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.

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Rubbish of the highest order. Full Sail is worse than the SAE.

Quote RMarshall:

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Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.

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May I be the first to pull your chain.

To Max (on agreeing with me) - Steady on there big boy! You'll be shaving next!

Quote hifistud2:

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Quote RMarshall:

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Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.

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And should already be making the tea at the local studio, getting as much live experience as he can, and be soldering cables and repairing amps...

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I'm not sure about the repairing amps bit but, being able to demonstrate an interest in the subject beyond what is covered in the A level course is vital.

The real purpose of education in this business is to fill in areas of knowledge that are difficult to learn on the job. That's why most successful people have qualifications that aren't specifically music technology qualifications. Something like a physics degree will teach you all the basic knowledge you need - it is up to you how you apply it. If you need a little more guidance on applying the basic principles then an electronics or acoustics qualification might be better for you.

If you are more interested in the music side then a straight music qualification might also be more worthwhile. The Tonmeister course falls into this category (as far as I know) as it is much more music based than technology based.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Edited by James Perrett (01/09/08 09:10 AM)

The best reason for taking a music technology degree is to have a bit of paper to allow you to teach it in schools.

As discussed above music departments could use some help teaching music technology. Whether schools ought to be teaching the A-level is of course a different issue. My own view is that for all sorts of reasons an A-level makes more sense than the full course for those who have an interest.

J

Ohh yes its a strange one!

I actually studied at confetti......and the lecturers told me the truth......they said this isnt going to guarantee you a job, this and that.........but I couldn't care, I can;t concentrate on doing anything else other than something in music, and Im not good enough at anything else to do it if Im going to be honest........confetti did give me some damn good experience though, and it wasn;t as head in the clouds as people think it is, alot of the lecturers told you how it was going to be.......and to be honest I knew anyway.....but I couldn't help learning about music.

I now work as a music technician......I mean hey its not timbalands job, but I get paid to work in an area that I love.....and im sorry for the horribleeee cliche ahah....but that's all that matters to me for one!

I do agree with what people are saying on here though the universities need to be more open about this stuff, like the lecturers of their courses secretly are!

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Anthony Latue/Music and Media Technician/City College Coventry

Quote NorthernDreams:

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Ohh yes its a strange one!

I actually studied at confetti......and the lecturers told me the truth......they said this isnt going to guarantee you a job, this and that.........but I couldn't care, I can;t concentrate on doing anything else other than something in music, and Im not good enough at anything else to do it if Im going to be honest........confetti did give me some damn good experience though, and it wasn;t as head in the clouds as people think it is, alot of the lecturers told you how it was going to be.......and to be honest I knew anyway.....but I couldn't help learning about music.

I now work as a music technician......I mean hey its not timbalands job, but I get paid to work in an area that I love.....and im sorry for the horribleeee cliche ahah....but that's all that matters to me for one!

I do agree with what people are saying on here though the universities need to be more open about this stuff, like the lecturers of their courses secretly are!

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they need to shut the ruddy things down - what the hell use are 250,000 music tech grads gonna be over the next ten years? Learn a bloody trade and enjoy music....

People wonder why all the work is going to Asia, Arabia and India..... seems like those nations have a better grasp of doing some ruddy work which is exactly why they deserve the economic growth they're going through - UK. A place full of people with their head in the clouds.... it's EXACTLY this kind of TV inspired "i wanna be famous man" - "i gotta do my music ..maaaan" crap that is turning out oodles of nothing...... I blame Simon Cowell..

Not entirely serious rant over...

lol, thats a very non confrontational original question

education today is not about education anymore, it's about making money

thats all you need to say, you can work out the pitfalls of that ideology yourself:

student goes round colleges with fat grant cheque or private funds - colleges roll out flashy expensive gear to impress and bend the course not so much to what is required by the student, but rather to fullfil the student fantasies about fiddling with star-trek control panels

what student really needs is considered too boring and unimpressive to make them hand over grant money


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I speak as a 21 year old aspiring engineer, who is currently using his skills in therapeautic education, who went to Confetti in Nottingham, and although didn't learn everything, learned a damn slight more than if I "just got some work experience"
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work experience? - remember you're talking there about the education ground of pretty much all the worlds top producers and most of the top engineers who were all self taught via experience.


the snobbery seems to be reversed here - my son just finished an honours degree course - it was good to show him many aspects of the subject (like an art foundation course does) which allowed him to then discover & choose a specialisation subject he didnt know about and hadn't experienced, and which he has new decided is the feild he wants to build a career in if possible. That part was good... to experience briefly many areas of sound/audio work

on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.

horses for courses basicaly.

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You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.

Quote Dr Whom:

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i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.

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Anyone remember competitive dad from the fast show?

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

I for one feel very sorry for these music tech students. We are only a med size studio but I think I must get at least 30 CV's every month for student looking for a job or work experience. It's sad to think that some of them paid alot of money for these coures and can't get a job.

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Neil Haynes - The Parlour Recording Studio
The Parlour FaceBook Page

As an alternative opinion:

I did a Music Tech related Uni course at Leeds Met. Some aspects of it were totally mickey mouse - at the time the studios were deeply inadequate and some of the tuition was deeply dubious (including one tutor who I strongly believe was a con man after talking the uni to invest in a load of highly expensive gear at full RRP that he may well have been getting commission from). Some aspects were quite good - electronics, DSP, physics and psychoacoustics were covered, albeit in a relatively basic fashion compared to more pure courses, along with multimedia aspects such as video editing and so on.

Regardless of all of this, the most important thing of all was that attending uni put me into an environment of great creative opportunities that I would have never got an oar into elsewhere. I was around film, art and various other media students and was able to get a great deal of experience outside of coursework - I was able to do things, even at a pretty basic level, that I simply would not have had the opportunity to do had I stayed at home. I was also able to find my niche - that as a Sound Designer - which I have been working full time professionally for a number of years now. If I hadn't gone to uni, I wouldn't be where I am today.

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http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote Steve Hill:

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Let's be realistic. 90% of the places training for A-levels do not have the people or the equipment to do so, and even if they do have some equipment, it's stretched too thin for students to get enough hands-on experience with e.g. trying out compressor settings or whatever.

As for CVs... on the one hand you can't blame students for trying to make themselves look as good as possible. But despite that, I read loads of the things and say to myself "I'm sorry, but this guy is evidently clueless". Then I reflect on how many years and how many thousands of pounds have gone into achieving that result.

Of course the cream will rise to the top. But then what? I know some really good, experienced engineers who are out of work.

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To be honest, this post together with Hugh's, are the most accurate and well put arguments against the thousands of graduates of music technology courses, and the courses themselves of course. The problem i think is mostly concentrating in the way that educations is handled in our times...and given to us, our children, friends etc....

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www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub

A friend of mine studied automotive design at a very reputable institution in Turin and one of the first things they were taught is that vanishingly few of them would ever get to work on anything close to a car. Even a car ashtray.

He then transferred halfway through to a similar school in the UK, which for some reason is rated with more kudos. The lecturers there simply would not honestly berate any of the students (now called “learners”, I believe), even when challenged to (my friend is Russian and has a very direct approach). Instead they were all given the feeling throughout that they were all on a path to designing the next Aston.

I think that Narcoman is right, that sensible legislation is needed. Good luck to you.

However, how many 18 year-olds actually hear the depressing/realistic advice that well meaning mentors give them? I know I didn’t. Like Gary Larson's cat, when people said to me, “Music? That’s the hardest industry out there”, I heard “Blah? Blah blah blah blah blah blah”. That advice was fine for everyone else but I was obviously the special case and as such I was at liberty to ignore their advice out of hand.

Fortunately I had a plan-B. I started out studying astrophysics at uni because (honestly) if I wasn’t going to be a rock star I would settle for astronaut. I wasn’t fussy, and after all there was no tea-boy route into that career as far as I knew.

Anyway, my friend did not go on to work on cars but he has started his own design business and, using some old contacts, now designs private jet interiors and mega yachts for oligarchs. It seems that starting your own business is a common theme here.

You could start a studio on the moon!

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

I'm sure Alex James has already done that, no?

Quote Dr Whom:

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on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

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no, it just makes either your son, or his course.. [ ****** ]

Don't see what the problem is. My college certainly doesn't advertise the course for getting a job. It is learning something you enjoy, new skills etc.

There's thousands of Psychology and Geography students for example who won't be getting a job in their chosen field (60% of graduates in ANY subject don't!!). I wonder if their is a mind-on-mind forum complaining about all these useless psychology students with their crappy piece of paper.

You can moan about it all you like on a forum, not going to achieve anything really. And student's wouldn't listen anyway if their heart is set on it.

Quote Anon101:

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Quote Dr Whom:

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on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

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no, it just makes either your son, or his course.. [ ****** ]

Don't see what the problem is. My college certainly doesn't advertise the course for getting a job. It is learning something you enjoy, new skills etc.

There's thousands of Psychology and Geography students for example who won't be getting a job in their chosen field (60% of graduates in ANY subject don't!!). I wonder if their is a mind-on-mind forum complaining about all these useless psychology students with their crappy piece of paper.

You can moan about it all you like on a forum, not going to achieve anything really. And student's wouldn't listen anyway if their heart is set on it.

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Well seeing as geography involves a HUGE amount for social economics I think you could argue that anyone involved in any business or demographic pursuits DOES get a job in their field. Same for Psych.

I think this topic seems to be focusing on the wrong thing.

Degree's don't guarantee jobs and that is not only true of music.

Education is about learning and there is a lot that can be learnt from a good teacher, in a educational environment, I understand that you can learn pretty much anything from a book, the internet, sos etc and these resources are extremely useful tools that a student can add to his/(occasionally her) learning. Having a knowledgeable tutor to guide you through the learning process is surely also a valuable tool.

I agree that the music technology A level specifications are pretty dire in the way they assess skills learnt and the new specification isn't much of an improvement.

It is possible to equip a student with the skills needed to complete a task in many ways, they can be shown the bare minimum to get the task done, or you can equip the student with the knowledge to think for themselves about microphone choice and placement, correct gain structure, when to use compression etc etc. specifications don't tell you how to teach the methods they tell you what is expected as a result, it is then up to the teacher to provide good tuition and this an area thats needs to be addressed.

I know how many people graduate with music tech qualifications and many of those probably achieve their qualification with the minimum of effort and understanding, however some of those students combine their school learning with out of school learning like setting up home studios and recording bands, programming, live sound etc. these are the students that have benefitted from the education system the fact that they went to school doesn't mean their understanding of a subject is less valid because they achieved that understanding in a different way.

If you are relying on your piece of paper to get you the job then you shouldn't really get it anyway.

The industry has and is continuing to change and the need for music technology skills will still continue to be needed. Yes there will still be too many graduates but those candidates who worked hard and are able to adapt to new and different working environments (the ones with more than just a piece of paper) will find themselves ways of earning a living from a passion of theirs.

Don't forget the A level includes more than 'recording skills' composition, arrangement, programming and traditional musical skills are also included.

How many of you would have turned down a place on a music tech course had it existed?

Apologies if anyone else has already said this but the irony is that in the past when there were no courses there were lots more studios and potential jobs.

The reason there are few jobs is because there are few studios - the huge boom in home studios that started with the portastudios in the early 80s and has led to what we have today has killed the industry - so IMHO some of the studios that were going bust and had no customers came up with the idea of setting up courses instead - what else could they do - this has eventually led to the boom in audio engineering courses we have today.

Sadly I agree with most of the others here that although these may be interesting and fun they are a very poor bet for getting a career and a decent living - if you want to enjoy music do economics or computer science get a highly paid job in investment banking, then build a f*** off studio to spend any spare time you may have in!

Actually my youngest daughter who is 15 and a muso would love to do a music tech course but I'm afraid I will have to do my best to discourage her.

Sadly being a rich successful engineer/producer is like being a rich successful footballer / rock star etc - if you are one of the few that get there it's because you are incredibly luckly / pushy / in the rught place at the right time etc, etc, regardless of wheter you have talent or not - you would be better studying a "positive thinking and how to shaft people" course than music tech!

As many have said THERE ARE NO JOBS - only do a course if you can afford to have the fun and some way of making a decent living from something else!

there have never been loads of jobs in studio land, but yes - even less so now.

As for a degree not getting you a job - of course. But music tech courses - not only aren't there any jobs for the grads, the courses (apart from the high end ones mentioned) will STOP you getting work. I would NEVER employ someone on the strength they went to Confetti, for example. It would be a big point against, for me and many many others.

You don't need music tech to work in this industry. You need savvy and cunning. Music tech? RTFM for all the courses are worth.

But you can't be a lawyer or accountant or engineer or teacher or pilot or etc etc WITHOUT a degree in a relevant subject.

I don't understand how a potential job candidate who has tried to gather as much knowledge as possible including studying that subject, would be turned away on the basis they tried to learn some skills by studying at a school. You may agree that the courses aren't the best they could be but surely the dedication and pursuit of that knowledge is worth something to a potential employer. If the position still requires them to make the tea i'm sure many would be grateful for the chance, at least thy are showing willing.

I don't see the A level as a threat when it can be studied alongside other subjects i.e. Music Math and Physics.

But I can understand and agree that putting your eggs in one basket is where the problem lies especially if it's the wrong basket.

Quote RMarshall:

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How many of you would have turned down a place on a music tech course had it existed?

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Me!

It's a silly question because it means nothing outside of the context of the individual faced with that decision at that time.

As it happens, I turned down all university education (although I had some offers, to read English, at redbrick universities), because at that time I preferred to earn some money to buy some guitars and amplifiers and stuff.

That day job got a bit out of hand and I ended up a partner in the biggest firm of accountants on the planet, and then chose to regard music as a hobby for a while, until I went back to it full-time, by choice, some years ago.

Quote narcoman:

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But you can't be a lawyer or accountant or engineer or teacher or pilot or etc etc WITHOUT a degree in a relevant subject.

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Not now, I agree. I got lucky, for long and convoluted reasons.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/09/08 09:21 PM)

I too chose work over university and yes guitars were one of the main influences. I had a bad experience with education post 16 taking a full time music course that was poorly written and delivered and left me disgruntled.

I never intended to become a teacher or lecturer (actually my job title as was commented on earlier, I think they are trying to glorify the post). But when the opportunity arose I felt I could provide better tuition than my own experiences.

I teach part time and have been fortunate enough to find two institutions that were willing to employ me over the guys with degrees. It is possible and the rates are available although there is always someone new in finance to convince!

I see providing good quality A level tuition as an eye opener for students, a way of discovering the roles and job types without committing to making tea for two years in one of the remaining studios before deciding that working the graveyard shift recording awful bands wasn't as glamorous a career path as they thought. Instead they discovered sound design or composing for computer games and then chose an appropriate pathway to pursue it.

In the very first lesson at the beginning of term this very topic of conversation is discussed, once they leave there is not much I can do to stop then from enrolling on a FE course. I can only steer their pathways and the Tonnmeister is included as a goal for those seriously interested in a guide pack provided to potential students before the course, as their other A level choices are important Math and Physics etc.

When I was a teacher, I was a clueless pratt as well.

Just out of interest, if I for example applied for a work experience placement with any of the contributors to this thread. How many of you would count it against me that i am currently studying at a university and studying a music tech degree. I feel that failing to include that information could be even more disastorous apart from deliberately hiding the truth. Obviously everything is on a case by case basis.

I personally have become more frequently fed up with how i feel like my university is teaching me and my friends information that is utterly useless as far as employability goes. Occasionally i get something useful from the odd lecturer who goes out of there way. I feel like my best chances of getting employed come from my extra curricular activities. I have built a wah pedal from a basic kit, im capable of reading simple circuit diagrams, i can read music albeit slowly, i perform with my own band on a usually weekly basis. I am about to start building my own modular synthesizer from scratch. I would say that i am capable with a soldering iron, and hopefully at hobbyist level of recording.

I feel like the lecturers understand this, the pure music modules and composition are useful, and the recording modules seem almost useful although i tend to usually know how most of it is done due to spending hours reading these forums and having the magazine subscription. Some of the lecturers seem equally frustrated that they have to teach us modules such as the history of pop or music in the computer age, which are probably wonderful as an extra curricular activity for a music journalist, but i fail to see how they could ever help an aspiring engineer.

Alot of the people on my course i will admit seem to be there for lack of a better idea.

I seriously thought about dropping out this year to just attempt to go it alone as all my employable skills dont appear to come from what im spending £7000 a year on.

Oh and now would also seem like a good time to get an anonymous alias for this forum.

This rant probably doesnt appear to go anywhere so ill reiterate what i was originally asking which is if you recieved a cv doubtless what other credentials the person had would you count a music tech degree against them?

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

Just for some perspective, I only know two assistants that didn't do some form of music tech course. Of the rest, maybe half are tonmeisters and the rest are from all over the shop.

Hi James!

We expect interns to be able to read a circuit diagram and an orchestral score with no difficulties and to have musical abilities beyond just formal reading. We also expect fluent computer skills.

I was talking to a professor of MT and he pointed out that when his students start, some 80% want to work in a studio. When they finish the course and have seen what work in a studio really entails, 20% or fewer want to work in a studio.

The work is poorly paid, it is very difficult and stressful and there are practically no prospects for promotion, travel, or even something as normal as a company car.

If you study Business Economics and German, you could work for Aldi in their management scheme, get a company car, a dream salary and travel the World.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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If you study Business Economics and German

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Ooh, yes please, that really fires me up.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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you could work for Aldi in their management scheme, get a company car, a dream salary

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My god, I see it now, I've wasted my life.

Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?

I know loads of people think it's utterly anal and stupid to be troubled about these things and I appreciate that there are very knowledgable people who can't spell. But the "Hey, i can't be arsed to press that shift button - just get a life, dude im rockng" mentality is so flipping depressing.

Isn't attention to detail a vaguely worthwhile skill? No doubt I've made millions of basic errors in this small submission but I don't care. And I don't care because I am sick and tired of people who are in "Higher Education" or "Further Education", be it as pupils, students, teachers or lecturers displaying such a lamentably poor grasp of the English language. And if anyone is inclined to claim that their English is fine but they're just disinclined to bother well...they're worse. (People who do not speak English as a first language may have their sentence commuted, if they're very nice to me).

Thank you and goodnight.

Quote Seaforth:

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Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?

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Yes, it should be included if you're seriously interested in a guide pack.