Main Forums >> Recording Techniques
        Print Thread

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)
Joe_caithness



Joined: 30/07/06
Posts: 262
anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate?
      #651191 - 28/08/08 06:36 PM
hmmm...

this is a ponder as much as a point, but the amount of snobbery against people just showing an interest in a formal way about something we (should atleast if were buying SOS!) love.

why is it that whenever music technology education is mentioned people are ready to start the witch hunt, or atleast post a snide comment?

OK I realise that it is NOT the way to start a business, does NOT mean anyone will give you a job

but it does mean that people are inspired enough by our area to learn it full time (or part time if that suits them) and that is a good thing in my eyes.

I speak as a 21 year old aspiring engineer, who is currently using his skills in therapeautic education, who went to Confetti in Nottingham, and although didn't learn everything, learned a damn slight more than if I "just got some work experience"

I understand there is NOTHING as good as just doing it. But the ones who just do it, and also learned the science of studio equipment and techniques, are gonna have a damn slight more advantage over the 5956849568495674568746 people who bought a 4 track, recorded one band, then left it in the shed, or hassled some studios into letting them make tea but never got showed how upwards expansion can be used as a subtle alternative to RMS compression on a mix bus.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2581
Loc: . ...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651202 - 28/08/08 07:18 PM
The only reason I get on my soapbox over some types of education, is because too many kids are being told that there is a possible career out there for them in recording studios.

The likes of SAE and other 'schools' have become remarkably successful, selling an unrealistic dream at inflated prices.

They are cheating young people and denying them a future career at the same time and that is despicable IMO.

They (and some accredited universities!) continue to do this with other subjects, such as TV and similar fashionable media fields, selling a complete pipe-dream that you can become a journalist, DVD tech, cameraman, 3D CGI tech, etc., etc., by just attending a few short courses and paying vast amounts of money.

I certainly do not blame the young for being naive - that is all part of the gig of being young! But I do expect parents, career teachers and employees of accredited colleges to be wise to the facts and not to lie to the young.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651208 - 28/08/08 07:33 PM
Me and Blads vary in our opinions on many things - but in this one important area we are united. Along with many others here.

Joe - the reason we all seem so against it is because of the money grabbing. It costs a lot, you learn FAR more DOING it (and yes - i know all about Confetti, - my brother went there (a waste of time!) and I know the team that set it up very well). For one thing - the knowledge from courses such as those mentioned is WOEFULLY inadequate in a real world (but rare) studio situation. I have a couple of assistants on freelance basis here - they need to able to problem solve electrical issues practically on a daily basis. Not to mention IT stuff - thankfully less since we went 100% MAC a month ago!!

It is grossly unfair to take advantage of young peoples naivety - yes, sorry to be blunt - but young people are easy to lead up the garden path (so are some older folk!). If we tell you you are talented and you have a great future if you just put £20K into your education - you believe us. Personally I think as professionals and older types we have a responsibility to balance the set up. There are hundreds of courses yay-saying all giving great vibes about how great the course is, the amazing facilities and how you can learn to be the best. What they forget to mention is there are - NO JOBS. This matters. Education is NOT for fun. At 20 years old you (quite rightly - i did) want to have a laugh and pursue something you love.

What you don't realise at that age is that wasting your time at 18-25 is a HUGE mistake. You set yourself down a path. Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this. There needs to be limits. Currently there are 1000's of "graduates" every year in the UK alone. They're all being taught stuff you could learn from reading a Cubase manual - for big money. Its a scam. There is no other way to put it.

I've seen - first hand- what passes as "mic' technique" in the course you mention. It is NOT something you can learn in a classroom. You need mentoring. Added to that - we just do not need he number of "engineer types" we have at the moment. Not now and not for a long time. These numbers need capping.

Trying to re-dress the "balance" when the balance is already tipped heavily in the favour of the music tech money spinning colleges is definitely something that doesn't need doing. Look at the bigger picture before defending the indefensible.

200 and something - the number of CVs and/or work requests I've had this year.
600+ : the number of CDs I've had from acts wanting placing on media product.

Doesn't this tell you something? You should see what Abbey Road gets!!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2456
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651219 - 28/08/08 07:59 PM
Just to add to this, there is nothing inherently wrong with offering a music technology (or technological music) course, as long as it is not sold on an unrealistic premise.

The problem is that rather then offer these short courses as part of a continuing education curriculum (Which IMHO would be legitimate), they are offered as a route into an industry.

I also find the (from what I have seen) general lack of academic rigour troubling as it tends to mean that extrapolating to other jobs works poorly at best, because in most cases the underlying theory is not sufficiently emphasised. There are exceptions, I am talking about the 'trade schools' here, not the serious degrees.

The rather alarming emphasis on shiny kit and high end software is also a little worrying as IMHO for any given 90 percent of the industry whatever shiny you learned is totally irrelevant. Very few people make their money with an SSL J these days, and they are mostly the guys fixing the ones at the recording schools.... By and large the same thing goes for any particular software tool or workflow, learn the principles and a wide variety of practise, not just protools.

The reality is that even in my game (Theatre sound, among other things), I get a steady stream of CVs and work experience requests, what I am looking for is demonstrated interest in the field, attention to detail (Your computer has a spell checker, use it on the application letter), engineering know how (can you solder, can you hack the math) and can you play an instrument at any grade(a good indication of musical chops). Having done a recording course is not on my list of desirables, having done a pile of audio work in your own time is (And for the cost of that course you can buy a recording chain far better then anything the beetles used and some books and a whole pile of media, record bands, record nature, record room tone, record your kids, your parents, your grandparents, mix live, mix theatre, remix, mix classical, mix film, there are loads of opportunities to play for no money, take them)!

You will likely learn far more, and build a better CV then one that just says attended such and such recording school.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651230 - 28/08/08 08:30 PM
yup.

My least favourite sentence : "I have a passion for music".... I read that EVERYWHERE. What it means to me is "I wanna work in your place and use the studio downtime to do my music" - not what I want to hear. On the occasions I want people here - I want people who are ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY interested in the technical side of things. I don't want a producer wannabe!!

moving on....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Fastlane



Joined: 04/04/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Canadaland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651237 - 28/08/08 08:48 PM
Interestingly enough - the same barriers exist for many people with "tech school" diplomas in other fields, as well.

For instance - it's all well and good for you to get a certificate for programming in "pascal" - which many people did in the early 90's and were employable at the time.

However, when the industry shifted directions, the "tech school" people either had to completely retrain, or hopefully rely on some work experience that broadened their horizons.

The truth of the matter is that learning how to use a flavour of software (recording or otherwise) does not a career make.

That's not to say that there aren't tech schools out there that teach a proper foundation in skills, problem solving, creativity, etc. What the folks here seem to be saying is that those programs are few and far between. And - the idea that a grad of even a great program is going to be magically employable by "the man" is rubbish.

I think the biggest complaint from the "old guard" is the fact that music tech school grads seem inevitably convinced they are going to get a "job" out of it. I mean that in the traditional sense - where you work for an employer who pays you a salary/wage. Can a great engineer and/or talented artist carve a spot in the market for their skills? Undoubtedly yes. But it seems almost always as a result of their out-of-tech-school skills (i.e. business, marketing, etc). And the hard work. The old guard you refer to knows that a free ride doesn't exist and rightfully tries to point that fact out to the less experienced.

Just my 2 cents - which are probably worth less than 2.

Lane


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
JC LA



Joined: 23/08/08
Posts: 42
Loc: LA, USA
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651244 - 28/08/08 09:06 PM
I have had the pleasure of working with both people who have had music tech education and also with people who just went the tea boy route.

And to be honest, it was all good!

maybe i got lucky, i dont know.

I guess, for me it comes down to the fact that some people are not easy to work with and others are.

whether you are succesful, i think has little to do with having/not having music tech education.

its like the stories about people who have parents who were alcoholic:

1 child says "they were, so then I will be too"

the other child says:

"they were alcoholic and so im not going to touch a drop"

its completely down to how you see things.

--------------------
Music Marketing Online


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Rockrooms



Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 241
Loc: Oxford
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651251 - 28/08/08 09:10 PM
Quote Joe_caithness:

hmmm...
or hassled some studios into letting them make tea but never got showed how upwards expansion can be used as a subtle alternative to RMS compression on a mix bus.




But therein lies the rub. Frankly I couldn't give a toss about upward expansion or RMS compression on a mix bus and nor could most (well actually all) of my clients. Making a good cup of tea and getting them ready to give a fantastic performance that is going to sound great so they are happy to pay up, want to come back and will recommend the studio to all and sundry is what matters.

Perhaps one of the reasons the old guard get a bit irked by all the music tech courses is the lack of business reality and that pointing this out seems to constantly fall on deaf ears. It's the music business we're in. The one does not survive without the other.

From a personal point of view, there are massive gaps in my music tech knowledge, but the ones in my business knowledge are the ones that need filling first.

It's the Witch, not the wand, to nick a quote from Insider Audio.

- Joe -
Rockrooms Studio


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2456
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651263 - 28/08/08 09:30 PM
Quote narcoman:

I want people who are ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY interested in the technical side of things. I don't want a producer wannabe!!
moving on....




Oh god, YES!

You get them in theatre as well, but I think they are worse, they tend to be wannabe authors or directors...

Guess who is mysteriously absent at 3AM during the load out (When you want the inexperienced cassies to push boxes to the truck)?

For some reason I have found that classically trained dancers sometimes make very good techs (You have to teach the board operation and the like but they seem to tend to have the mindset for it).

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JC LA]
      #651264 - 28/08/08 09:30 PM
Quote JC LA:

I have had the pleasure of working with both people who have had music tech education and also with people who just went the tea boy route.

And to be honest, it was all good!

maybe i got lucky, i dont know.

I guess, for me it comes down to the fact that some people are not easy to work with and others are.

whether you are succesful, i think has little to do with having/not having music tech education.

its like the stories about people who have parents who were alcoholic:

1 child says "they were, so then I will be too"

the other child says:

"they were alcoholic and so im not going to touch a drop"

its completely down to how you see things.




the quality of the people isn't really the issue. It's the ruddy QUANTITY. 4000 grads a year chasing 10 or 20 jobs. That's it. There are something like 50,000 music tech grads in the UK alone. No where NEAR anything like that figure of total employment.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Neil C
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 2616
Loc: Under a PlopEgg
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651266 - 28/08/08 09:36 PM
Quote narcoman:

Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this.




I don't know of any higher education subjects where numbers are capped according to likely future employment demand. Certainly would be an interesting picture if that were the case across all subjects - massive upheaval it would be.
People are entitled to aim to study what they like, although they should go into it fully cognisant of the facts.
If a course provider makes a false promise or claim than that is a behaviour independant of subject, it is bad/maybe immoral/maybe illegal practice that should be dealt with. Same with standards of tuition where public money is involved.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Neil C]
      #651270 - 28/08/08 09:40 PM
Quote Neil C:

Quote narcoman:

Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this.




I don't know of any higher education subjects where numbers are capped according to likely future employment demand. Certainly would be an interesting picture if that were the case across all subjects - massive upheaval it would be.
People are entitled to aim to study what they like.
If a course provider makes a false promise or claim than that is a behaviour independant of subject, it is bad/maybe immoral/maybe illegal practice that should be dealt with.




Absolutely. No subjects are capped yet. I'm of the opinion that perhaps they should be. There should be limited places - which was more the way when education in universities where nationalised.... THIS is the problem with privatized Unis and colleges. Profit comes first, rather than the REAL interests of the young....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rockrooms]
      #651271 - 28/08/08 09:40 PM
Quote Rockrooms:

Making a good cup of tea and getting them ready to give a fantastic performance that is going to sound great so they are happy to pay up, want to come back and will recommend the studio to all and sundry is what matters.



Agreed. To my knowledge, THAT aspect is not taught and in many circumstances, that is often more important to the job (and keeping it and getting asked back) than anything else. You can be a f'king genius but if you're an objectionable, arrogant, opinionated twat, people won't want to work with you even if you can deliver the goods (the worst scenario being if you're an objectionable, arrogant, opinionated twat and CAN'T deliver - a gobby shite merchant in other words. Sadly, far too many of those around!).

You are there to keep your client(s) happy. It should be a given that you can do that at a technical level - the 'social' side, however, is another matter and you must be as skilled in that as much as anything else ... sorting out a stroppy guitarist or producer in a studio, working towards avoiding the prima donna lead vocalist storming off stage at a live gig you're mixing, reacting favourably to delivery time on a project when the project manager brings the deadline two weeks forward and so on ... and handling those situations as diplomatically as possible.

Quote Rockrooms:

Perhaps one of the reasons the old guard get a bit irked by all the music tech courses is the lack of business reality and that pointing this out seems to constantly fall on deaf ears.



Yup. I don't know how many threads we've had of this nature here but still they crop up with alarming regularity. And almost every time someone asks for honest opinions from experienced people on the matter, they invariably don't want to hear them when they get them ... and then invariably the claim that the old farts are protecting their jobs follows swiftly afterwards.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
A Non O Miss



Joined: 07/02/08
Posts: 950
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651273 - 28/08/08 09:43 PM
They should first take an Economics course and learn the basics of supply and demand.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651278 - 28/08/08 10:12 PM
I don't mind people (who after all pay some fees for it these days) taking a year or so out to learn something about as useless as Ancient Greek or Latin.

I do mind so-called educators making false claims about how they have all these industry contacts which will help you get a job, because that's just bollocks. (Somebody will now pipe up and say he got a job. Well good. Now let's talk about the other 4,999).

Some courses also make dubious claims about how much hands-on time you get with the toys, and fail to mention that there are 30 people queuing up for every spare bit of downtime. Some courses are equipped, if that's not too strong a word for it, with ageing, well-dodgy gear. I've got a graduate from a very highly esteemed course with me right now who claims that devoting an entire term to midi was the biggest waste of a few months of his life he could possibly imagine. I could go on.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: A Non O Miss]
      #651302 - 28/08/08 11:13 PM
Quote A Non O' Miss:

They should first take an Economics course and learn the basics of supply and demand.




hah!

Perhaps that says it all! nice.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
creepy_man



Joined: 26/08/08
Posts: 11
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651305 - 28/08/08 11:24 PM
The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.

As for everything else on this thread. Who cares.

In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
A Non O Miss



Joined: 07/02/08
Posts: 950
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: creepy_man]
      #651308 - 28/08/08 11:31 PM
Quote:

The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.




Actually history has proven music sales to increase when the economy is in a recession.

Quote:


In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...




??? 9 posts here. Well I see you know it all and have spent considerable time seeing a multitude of posts by all these users. Funny enough, *not including* myself, most of the others posting in this thread are who I would consider to be the smartest on this forum and most worthy of posting good material. The people you actually should listen to. Maybe take some time, look around more, get to know them in an anonymous way, and then pass judgment.

Edited by A Non O' Miss (29/08/08 12:06 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: creepy_man]
      #651313 - 28/08/08 11:46 PM
Creepyman

This trainspotting nerd is a moderator, and you signed up to a set of forum rules in which you undertook to refrain from personal abuse.

We can have intelligent discussions and honest disagreements without resorting to personal abuse. Some of us can, anyway.

Consider this a formal warning. Any repetition and you will be banned without further notice.

P.S. the "train set" using my studio as I type is a band with over 30 albums in their discography. I venture the wholly immodest opinion that they and I have earned the right to tell you where to go.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (28/08/08 11:51 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Jon Con



Joined: 19/12/05
Posts: 72
Loc: Cardiff, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651316 - 29/08/08 12:10 AM
i think in alot of cases you may find that going to university that some of the places may have spent alot money on marketing the course to get you through the door. You can often then find that throughout the year you speak to peers who find themselves saying "the course isn't what I'd imagine it would be".

Providing you have a realistic understanding of how the industry is shaped I don't think there is any problem going down this route, just make the best use of your time and get as much experience along the way. Some of my friends are about to start the third year of their uni course in engineering and haven't had chance to access the studios yet because all the available booking slots always get prioritised to 3rd year students for their final projects and they haven't got enough space to cater for all their students. In the last year I've found myself recording more people working a full time job than some of my friends have had at uni and learning as much just from buying as many books as I can lay my hands on the different subjects. I've found I've also learnt more from being in a band and paying for studio time to work with different producers.

of all the people I know who went to uni to do a production course, the only person who I could say has been a success and has stood head and shoulders above the others was a guy who started recording when he was 15, featured in studio SOS about 7/8 years ago and has recently been tied up recording Funeral for a friends new album. He went to Glamorgan and left after something like a month because he realised he didn't really need to be the course and was starting to get himself in a position to make money from his studio full time and this was about 5 years ago. He started when most bands weren't recording their own demos but he's survived because he very good at what he does.

It can be great for some people but I wouldn't say it's snobbery from the likes of Narcoman or RedBladder, I imagine it would be more of a case of experiencing the situation first hand

all the best anyways man
Jon

*edited slightly because of bad grammar

Edited by Jon Con (29/08/08 12:14 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: creepy_man]
      #651322 - 29/08/08 12:20 AM
Quote creepy_man:

The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.

As for everything else on this thread. Who cares.

In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...




How's over 100million sales grab ya?

How about none of these guys help you out with your other thread on sorting out your sample library. Cannot stand the rudeness slowly finding its way from GS to here. Nip it in the bud.

Go for it Mods. Ban him.... sod the warnings....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
TurboD



Joined: 22/06/07
Posts: 271
Loc: UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651325 - 29/08/08 12:26 AM
While I understand where many of you are coming from with education establishments duping money out of naive youngsters, PLEASE can we have a stop to the abuse that the youngsters get thrown themselves? If you have a problem with the establishment, fight the establishment - not the innocent ones who are merely eager and being pushed into University by their parents (not to mention the government). They may require some direction, as we all do at points in our lives; however I'm sure at the times when you yourselves were there you didn't appreciate tirades of sarcasm.

I think that few parents these days would actually feel happy at the prospect of their children saying "actually Mum, I don't want to go to University. I want to go and wedge myself into a grubby studio where I can work for free and make tea for years on end." And lest we forget, some of these institutes can actually teach people things. Heaven forbid.

Yes, I am one of the ones that got a job.

--------------------
"He that hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." - Robert Browning


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651368 - 29/08/08 07:48 AM
As cited above it's the unrealistic prospects that some of these colleges are selling that gets my goat aroused (HUH?)

Try and find the pulse recording college advert on line for a good current example.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: TurboD]
      #651374 - 29/08/08 08:10 AM
Quote TurboD:

While I understand where many of you are coming from with education establishments duping money out of naive youngsters, PLEASE can we have a stop to the abuse that the youngsters get thrown themselves? If you have a problem with the establishment, fight the establishment - not the innocent ones who are merely eager and being pushed into University by their parents (not to mention the government). They may require some direction, as we all do at points in our lives; however I'm sure at the times when you yourselves were there you didn't appreciate tirades of sarcasm.

I think that few parents these days would actually feel happy at the prospect of their children saying "actually Mum, I don't want to go to University. I want to go and wedge myself into a grubby studio where I can work for free and make tea for years on end." And lest we forget, some of these institutes can actually teach people things. Heaven forbid.

Yes, I am one of the ones that got a job.




where is the abuse at the youngsters themselves? It's ALWAYS the music tech colleges we have a go at - it's the "youngsters" we're al trying to protect. And very lucky you....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9369
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651381 - 29/08/08 08:34 AM
Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.

May the thread continue.


--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651389 - 29/08/08 08:46 AM
Quote Zukan:

Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.



I deleted my post - couldn't be arsed in rising to his bait ... dunno why I did to be honest!

Banned you say, Zuke? Oh dear - does that mean we also won't be able to read about the 'raw power' he has in the forthcoming SOS interview with him? Shame - I was interested to see how big his train set was!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9369
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #651396 - 29/08/08 08:55 AM
I too await with bated breath................

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651399 - 29/08/08 09:03 AM
Quote Zukan:

Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.

May the thread continue.





Like the yoda....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651405 - 29/08/08 09:23 AM
How does one become a "sound engineer"? (whatever that means...)
If, nowdays the big studios don't exist and therefore don't hire teaboys/ tape ops, then how a youngster will learn the basics? Working for 2-3 years for free making tea, isn't it roughly equivalent with studying a diploma for lets say 9 months? (in terms of "wasting time" or money or both) In which 9 moths, you'll get to use studios as well as record artists?
There is music and sound for films and adverts and tv (post pro)
there is a thriving live music scene, at least here in london.
there is theatre sound
there is radio
and there is studio work
and education (you can become a lecturer/ technician whatever in one of those establishments, or even better, in studios of music universities.)
sales of music technology equipment?
broadcast engineering?
aren't those valid career paths? how can we say there aren't any jobs out there? Of course there are, but no one will hand them out to you, you got to go, as with any other mother****in' job in the world, and chase it. Plus, you start anyway/ anywhere from the bottom. No one will offer you a position as the general manager of Abbey road studios at the age of 21. Thats where experience comes in. Thats what you gain while you are working. After you get some basic knowledge from education in a relative background. The issue is how fast you'll rise. and its entirely up to the individuals.
Plus some of us we haven't got the luck to own big barns and have loads of space to set up our own free studio with no rent costs/ need soundproofing etc.
From those 6000 graduates of various music tech courses a year how many really know what they want to do? 2000? how many are really talented?200? Yes there are 185 jobs per year out there for those 200 i bet. sure its not 6000 jobs, but not all 6000 want to do that. they learn from their mistakes.
Times and people evolve. its not better or worse than it was before for people that like sound. Thats what i think anyway. Oh, you need contacts and people and this is people skills that you can't teach... and some people have it some not! (certainly not this rude creep_man guy on this thread)
regards
t

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
molecular
member


Joined: 13/12/03
Posts: 756
Loc: north a bit, west a bit
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651415 - 29/08/08 09:40 AM
In my limited experience of being a recording artist in a studio environment (the making of one album and a couple of singles), nothing was more valuable to me and the rest of the band than having, on the other side of the glass, an affable character who never stressed out and thought what we were recording was worth doing.

Next, when we said we wanted to spend two hours recording the earth hum from an old synth through a Sherman, they said 'that sounds fun', and not 'f*** off you audio-retards'

Next, they could fix things with soldering irons, which saved them money and earned our respect in an odd way.

I'm sure that somewhere down the line they were involved with millisec.-accurate release times on their upward expanders, but if they didn't have the above qualities in spades, I wouldn't have given a s**t.

And while I'm here - why do the people who use these threads as an opportunity to blurt out insults always always have abysmal grammar?

What happened to good old fashioned, devastatingly constructed, 'Raffles the gentleman thug' style ravaging wit?

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2581
Loc: . ...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651418 - 29/08/08 09:57 AM
Oh Dear!

The lies told by the education industry seem to be more ingrained than I had originally thought.

These are the jobs you describe and after them, I have placed the kind of qualifications and experience you will have to have to get them -


"Music and sound for films and adverts"

Tonmeister or study music, followed by some experience with arranging for these fields.

"Live music and Theatre"

Same as for above. Experience is here more important than any qualification.

"Radio"

Music radio is self-op, so nothing there. Radio Four stuff is done by production assistants, so journalism or modern languages or some sort of journalistic study (politics, law, economics, etc.) is usually required. Pushing faders on Radio Four is the first step to a career in journalism, not engineering.

"there is studio work"

Let's see now - there are about 30 full-time commercial studios in the UK, with 60% of all turnover going to the London Big Three. Nearly all done by older freelancers and Tonmeisters.

"and education (you can become a lecturer/ technician whatever in one of those establishments, or even better, in studios of music universities.)"

Ha! Ha! Ha!

"sales of music technology equipment?"

Basic technology qualification (ONC to HND path). Proven sales track-record is vital.

"broadcast engineering?"

BSc in electronic engineering or ONC to HND path.

"aren't those valid career paths? how can we say there aren't any jobs out there?"

Plenty of good jobs out there, but none for graduates of recording courses.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Dave Rowles



Joined: 28/02/08
Posts: 1473
Loc: Isle of Man
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651427 - 29/08/08 10:09 AM
Having done a degree course and now being in live sound (degree was studio based) I have to say that what they taught there was useful to a certain extent. I was more academic at that point in my life so writing essays was something I could do easily. The course also did a fair chunk on acoustics and physics which I find incredibly useful when talking to install guys.

At the end of the day they never said that I was going to get a job in the music industry, they didn't sell the course as being about that.

They did have a brilliant lecturer in the 3rd year who basically told us that there weren't any jobs and if you wanted to work you'd have to fight hard to do it. He should've been in the first year then they could've culled the course down to less people...although given the money aspect they probably don't want to do that! The lecturer was a manager for a producer and a couple of bands.

I do not regret the time I spent at university. There was a lot of fun and frolics, and a lot of time spent messing around in a studio and getting a degree for it. The total enjoyment factor of uni far out-weighed the irrelevance of some of the modules in my opinion. Yeah, maybe I'm 3 years behind where I could've been if I'd gone straight into live sound, but not one regret.

--------------------
www.manninmusic.com Bandcamp
Sound Engineer, Music Teacher, Isle of Man


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651429 - 29/08/08 10:15 AM
Did SOS have an article about this subject that I missed? I seem to remember something...

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
jayzed
member


Joined: 19/03/04
Posts: 846
Loc: North London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651430 - 29/08/08 10:20 AM
IMHO the most important things for success in this industry are likeablility and flexibility, with talent closely behind and luck up there somewhere. It doesn't matter what toys you've used, it's how you get on with people and get the best from them. Flexibility comes from knowing where the opportunities will come from. I started out in a band, became a Tape-op at a large southern hemishpere studio, did a small stint house engineering (before a certain recording school bought out the studio!) and am now working for digital agencies doing sound and music for mini-games and websites. I don't consider myself a roaring sucess sound wise, especially when compared to some of the guys I worked with but I make a living and I enjoy what I do. I think my experience is more typical these days than the tape-op, house engineer, freelance engineer, super-producer career paths that that of the lucky, talented and generally nice people that we see interviewed in SOS.

One other thing I'd like to say. In my experience it's a negative for the engineers/producers to be 'cooler' than the band. Musicians and other performers like to feel like they're the shiniest people in the room, it helps with their confidence. Have a look at the bios of most of the really sucessful engineers out there - Fashion disasters. It also shows that they are more interested in how things are going to sound that the appearance of it all. That job is for the artists and the marketing wonks. Apart from the fact that if you really have a passion for this stuff you won't have the time to go clothes shopping, or to the tatooist. Just an observation. As for me, well I'm a fashion disaster without the major success - perhaps I should overcompensate and dress up a bit?? :-)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Mike Craig
member


Joined: 05/10/03
Posts: 592
Loc: Norwich (A Fine City)
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651433 - 29/08/08 10:27 AM


Zuke Skywalker! May the force be with you.

(I hope that's supposed to be a light sabre?!)



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joe_caithness



Joined: 30/07/06
Posts: 262
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651436 - 29/08/08 10:35 AM
interesting thread.

havn't had time to read all of these replys yet but two points I want to bring up.


1. ok the course costed me 6000 in fees (plus ones I dont really ever have to pay back in bulk), but if i had 6000 quid before doing it and have set up a business, or got studio equipment to learn I would have bought a naff interface, naff preamps, a load of middle of the road mic kits, and I would have been 18 and had no brain for business.

if you are clever about it, like me and to be fair, few, of my generation of ex music tech students used our student loans, and our spare time to set up our own little project on the go and are now doing their thing, I for one am now teaching the skills I learned at a basic level to kids who have been kicked out of school, to help them express themselves and ease them back into education without them noticing.

my brother is another example, his studio is the perfect balance between music tech knolwedge and general musicians who just want to get involved/do whatever. He is running a , just recently commercial studio in Warwickshire, with a friend of his who also went to Confetti (although my brother went to Lancaster), as well as someone without music qualification but a keen eye for electronics. Between them they have the skills and the contacts to do their thing, but only because they didnt RELY on their formal education.

2. My extremely tounge in cheek comment about upward expansion was basically me saying that not only am I now a hardworking focused (although [ ****** ] at making tea im afraid) engineer, I also know a lot of different techniques, that I can apply if you do hire me on the basis of my portfolio

and to be fair, anyone with half a brain will have spent more time working up a brilliant recording, mixing and mastering portfolio than doing humoungous essays.



I think my main point is this kinda thing is an important entry for many people, although it is often sold as a dream which isnt there, those people who believe that dream, would they really last in the industry as it is!? It's a wheat from the chaff thing as much as anything.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dave Rowles]
      #651440 - 29/08/08 10:43 AM
Quote Exavior Music:

Having done a degree course and now being in live sound (degree was studio based) I have to say that what they taught there was useful to a certain extent. I was more academic at that point in my life so writing essays was something I could do easily. The course also did a fair chunk on acoustics and physics which I find incredibly useful when talking to install guys.

At the end of the day they never said that I was going to get a job in the music industry, they didn't sell the course as being about that.

They did have a brilliant lecturer in the 3rd year who basically told us that there weren't any jobs and if you wanted to work you'd have to fight hard to do it. He should've been in the first year then they could've culled the course down to less people...although given the money aspect they probably don't want to do that! The lecturer was a manager for a producer and a couple of bands.

I do not regret the time I spent at university. There was a lot of fun and frolics, and a lot of time spent messing around in a studio and getting a degree for it. The total enjoyment factor of uni far out-weighed the irrelevance of some of the modules in my opinion. Yeah, maybe I'm 3 years behind where I could've been if I'd gone straight into live sound, but not one regret.




Hear here.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
jayzed
member


Joined: 19/03/04
Posts: 846
Loc: North London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651442 - 29/08/08 10:45 AM
I don't think any of us older types are saying that a brilliant (or just comfortable) career can not be made by someone who has attended one of the courses.
It just seems that the courses are sold on a false premise (that there are engineering jobs and that attending their course will get you one) and most people will be disappointed. Also, that the money is most likely to have been better spent elsewhere - maybe you could get value through personal networking but I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do that for youngsters. In my opinion, you would be better off buying the wrong equipment and learning through experience why it's wrong than attending most of the courses. It's actually quite hard to buy the wrong stuff these days, anyway. In fact, from what I've seen these courses are doing a huge dis-service by emphasising gear - one thing I've learned in this day of digital is that limitations are a blessing. They aid creativity and improve focus.
Of course, as we go on and the only people around are those who have attended courses then any bias against them may change, as is obvious from this thread and others no one likes being told that their decisions have been wrong - this still will not make the whole rotten system any less of a rip off for the vast majority who feel there is any sort of career path for them apart from whatever they make up themselves.

Thats better.

It's like the housing market, it will eventually devour itself to the point where the only real jobs left are teaching people for those jobs. Where's the actual music/sound in all of that?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651450 - 29/08/08 11:03 AM
Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway? Particularly in regard to modern music and the kids who listen to it.
The industry is so sterile now that the only sexy link in the whole chain seems to be the videos.
The rest of it just seems like an assembly line. I could be totally wrong of course, (I occupy my own little world as an engineer, working only with people I like and spending most of my time desperatly trying to get my career as a musician off the tarmac) but sitting behind a desk stuck between a producer a company executive and a lawyer all deciding how the record should sound doesn't sound like fun at all. Regardless of the money.
If you're doing the course to explore how the technology works and apply it to your own plan (like I did) great. Otherwise. Meh.
Be a music video director instead and spray Rhianna with a giant hose.

Oh, and I'm by no means 'old guard'.
I live in Ireland and there's f**king loads of recording colleges and, like, 6 or 7 big studios. Probably only one of which is any sort of step up to a major career. The first studio I ever recorded in had a tape op who had a masters in electronic engineering. And a city and guilds degree in sound engineering. He's the only guy I've ever met who got an industry job here (he assisted on an REM record, got a credit and everything. I think he was in on a couple of U2 things too). Which qualification do you think hooked him that job?

Edited by Handlestash (29/08/08 11:14 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #651454 - 29/08/08 11:11 AM
Red Bladder,

I like people with strong opinions and i don't have a problem discussing but i think you are very strongly opinionated in one side only. And nothing we say/ discuss/ argue in this thread will make you change your mind. If you think that there are plenty of jobs but not for the people who do sound engineering courses fine, be like that, i don't mind.

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #651461 - 29/08/08 11:45 AM
Quote Handlestash:

Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway?



It's a long standing myth probably stemming from seeing some engineers hanging around with top players and artists in plush, moodily-lit studios.

For the rest of us, however, 90% of the time (or more) is spent in less salubrious premises having to be nice and friendly to talentless tosspots who are blaming their lack of playing ability, songwriting skills and total lack of rehearsal on you for making them sound like shite (which will invariably be followed by a dispute over the bill!). That was my experience when I ran a studio a few hundred years ago and which was why I got out of it. Even when working in 'top' studios, it wasn't that different - just nicer gear and surroundings ... and worse tea!

Same doing live mixing - mixing a band at the dingy 'Dog and Duck' is a far cry from Wembley!!

Doing what I do now is highly enjoyable (if a bit mundane sometimes) ... for a certain percentage of time. A lot of it is filling out spreadsheets, etc., documenting what my client is getting. Hardly rock and roll!!!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #651462 - 29/08/08 11:52 AM
Quote Handlestash:

Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway? Particularly in regard to modern music and the kids who listen to it.




i should think they assume that "sound engineer" is a fancy name for producer (= Dr Dre).

plus for those of us who failed miserably as a creative part of the industry - whether through laziness, or otherwise (was always my achilles heel) - the idea of just being in a studio all day sounds better than working in an office.

i count myself lucky that i posted here regarding the issue before i paid a vast sum for a recording course. sure, it would have been fun, and i would have been able to run Pro-tools at the end of it, but it wouldn't have gotten me a job. because there aren't any jobs out there.

maybe we should put a big notice up on all the forums saying to do a search before posting? it would avoid having the same old bunfight again and again and again...

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
TurboD



Joined: 22/06/07
Posts: 271
Loc: UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #651565 - 29/08/08 05:35 PM
Quote onesecondglance:


i count myself lucky that i posted here regarding the issue before i paid a vast sum for a recording course. sure, it would have been fun, and i would have been able to run Pro-tools at the end of it, but it wouldn't have gotten me a job. because there aren't any jobs out there.




May I repeat; I am on a course, and I have a very good job in a very reputable studio. There are always jobs there if you're open-minded, good at what you do and very hard-working - even if it's not in a recording studio. Surprisingly, not everybody on a sound technology course wants to be holed up recording bands.

My course has taught me an awful lot of theoretical background that I would not have learned in a studio. Yes, it may not be immediately relevant, but I feel much more informed and more confident in the studio environment for knowing these things. It also means I can fix things.

However, even more important than that is that I have gained literally hundreds of contacts through the institute, many of which have led to paid work which gives me not only experience but reputation. I also have the option of working in a whole bunch of different fields.

I DO understand why going straight into a studio at 16 is a very good idea and that learning through experience is the best way forward. So why can't you do both; a University education with its benefits, accompanied by work between times?

--------------------
"He that hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." - Robert Browning


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
coojuice



Joined: 29/10/07
Posts: 371
Loc: Scotland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: TurboD]
      #651614 - 29/08/08 09:23 PM
I really cant believe that there is such negativity towards the courses and learning methods mentioned in this post, especially as this is the SOS forum we are on is it not?

If all of these courses are of no use or a complete waste of time then why do they exist?

And more importantly, if indeed they would be of no advantage to anyone why would the SOS magazine include 10 pages of tuition/programming and course adverts within their magazine each month?

I think what we all need to consider here is that it's 2008 and the industry doesn't work like it used to. Yes maybe 10 or 20 years ago it was advisable to dedicate your time to an employer as the "Gofur" in the hope of getting somewhere but times have changed and technology is evolving rapidly so modern music making techniques now require people that can carry out these processes both quickly and efficiently. That is why these courses exist.

And from an employers point of view today you can't seriously say that if they were to advertise for a job vacancy that they would offer the job to the person without the grades over the one with? That's not business like at all. We all know a bit of paper is worth nothing but the stuff printed on it is the currency of ANY job in todays world, that's just the way it is now!

The simple fact is that anyone wanting to learn how to become a producer, engineer etc needs somewhere to learn. If there were no courses where would people learn? At a studio? This I find very hard to believe. Studio time is precious enough to anyone involved so the last thing anyone wants is to spend more time on a project than is needed, time is money.

I'm currently doing an HND in Sound Production at College and can honestly say that it's the most fun and interesting thing I have ever studied. I've been introduced to multitrack recording, sequencing, mixing, editing and live recording, most of which i've never tried before. Aside from the hands on stuff i've also been learning about acoustics and working within the creative industry which i've found extremly interesting. One thing I would also like to add here is that not once has anyone at College told me that there are lots of job opportunities for you once you complete your course, infact it's quite the opposite. Most of my lecturers have said, yes, there are jobs within the industry but it's up to YOU to find these jobs, they don't come looking for you.

I never went into my course under the illusion that it would guarantee me a job in the industry once I complete it. It's the same with any course, this only gives you a helping hand to obtain skills required for working within a given area. The only reason I went into my course was actually to learn these different techniques so that I could try my hand at producing some tracks of my own. If anything I would say College has opened a whole lot of opportunities for me as it's introduced me to more options avaliable to me than I thought. I can also honestly say it's not been a waste of money either. My course tuition fees are funded by the SAAS so i'm actually getting all this knowledge for free! You can't get much better than that folks! Being a student also lets you get a discount from various studio equipment manufacturers and companies so this again has saved me money for creating my own little studio which I was going to do anyway.

Anyways, this post is getting long. I thought I would just give an honest opinion as i'm currently a student myself. I must add that i'm not a typical student, for one i'm probably a bit old...

I'm a 27 year old married home owner who is a Mechanical Engineer to trade with a part time project worker job just now.

Infact looking over that in writing i'm probably the complete opposite of a typical student! Who cares? I'm doing this because I enjoy it and if I make some cash then that's a bonus.

My main objective is to create a few dance tracks that I can play when i'm djing and have at least one person dance to one of them. I'm easily pleased!

Each to their own and feel free to correct anything i've said, I don't hurt easily

--------------------
easily pleased...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651618 - 29/08/08 09:37 PM
fun and interesting maybe.

THERE IS NO WORK. As is said countless times - how many people do we need to run the 30 or so full time professional studios in this country?

You CANNOT earn £25K in the music industry unless you have a great CV. Heck, if I only earned £25K, with my mortgage and outgoings, I'd go back to maths.

There isnt work for 4000 grads per year....

Please read some of the previous posts thoroughly. I'm an employer - and I (obviously) work in the industry. Music tech grads are of no use to me. And Abbey Road. And Carling Academy live venues. etc etc etc. Protools isnt hard to use. Neither is RADAR. Or Cubase/Logic. Or an SSL. OR an 88R. Or a ruddy AWS. And as I've said before - it isn't even really the quality - its the shear numbers of you.

The courses exist to make money - not produce useful sound engineers etc etc. Crikey - we just don't need 50,000 unemployed graduates of music tech. The qualifications are of no use whatsoever. The PEOPLE are what is useful.

I just had a brief interview with a young lad today about doing freelance work for me. He seems a great guy. Did a degree in architecture. I liked him, seems like a people person.

Thats is what matters. The skills are piss easy to learn .... this is not a difficult job - (neither for the most part is it glamourous).

Forget it - I'm clearly floggin a dead horse here....

Don't do music tech courses if you want a job in music. Do them because you wan to. Fine - no worries. But don't be under any illusions of what they can do for you - they can do nothing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
* User requested
...




Joined: 15/02/05
Posts: 2235
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #651622 - 29/08/08 09:45 PM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

Yes maybe 10 or 20 years ago it was advisable to dedicate your time to an employer as the "Gofur" in the hope of getting somewhere....




Is a 'gofur' a bit like a gimp, but in a bear suit?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
jellyjim
active member


Joined: 15/05/02
Posts: 2998
Loc: uk
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651628 - 29/08/08 09:59 PM
this thread again, so repetitive, but of course .. we have hopes and dreams

but surely it is obvious, more graduates than jobs

.

but here's an original contribution to these threads ...

given the bashing that the tech courses get let's hear one of the institutions defend themselves? perhaps even in a formal way, a SOS article or something ... come on tech course leaders, your courses get an absolute drubbing here from industry professionals, ex-students and amateurs alike

so, defend yourselves .. or is it all indefensible as some suggest?

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Edited by jellyjim (29/08/08 09:59 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Aural Reject



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4208
Loc: Lancashire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #651634 - 29/08/08 10:05 PM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

And more importantly, if indeed they would be of no advantage to anyone why would the SOS magazine include 10 pages of tuition/programming and course adverts within their magazine each month?





Um, because it's a business and the advertising revenue is important?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651644 - 29/08/08 10:22 PM
"If all of these courses are of no use or a complete waste of time then why do they exist? "

A very good question. Not that long ago, before music tech courses even existed as higher education, only about 10% of people went to university in the UK. Some pure music degrees had a small technical content, and things like the Surrey Tonmeister course evolved.

Tony Blair then decided everyone shall have medals. Or, specifically, decreed that 50% of people will go to uni. A-level grades were diluted to achieve this (such that many unis no longer regard A-levels as trustworthy). Money was thrown at the (largely imagined) "problem" in the name of education, education, education.

People did not want to read serious academic subjects. They needed the bribe of fun (as well as time-honoured perks like sex and drink) to turn up. Otherwise targets would not be met.

What were once vocational subjects, learned on the job (and therefore dependent on employers recruiting only enough people to fulfil expected future demand) were academic-ised. Who cares if there are no jobs, we'll hit the targets!

And then there was money. To attract state funding, students had to be attracted. More boxes with flashing lights were bought. Commerical colleges also sprouted all over the place. Nobody was doing a whole lot throughout this period of fervent activity to train competent lecturers, although there are some.

Booting failing students off courses, especially foreign ones who pay higher fees, became taboo. Lose a student, and you lose some state funding. Honest academics who tried to do this got themselves overruled by byzantine university politics. All Will Have Prizes: the government has spoken. And therefore you have to do something really spectacular not to get a degree. Hence employers treat all such degrees with contempt, however hard you worked for it. The currency has been devalued, in Zimbabwean proportions.

So money, basically. And too many people with vested interests unwilling to point out the blindingly obvious fact that the emperor has no clothes.

Sadly this phenomenon is by no means confined to music tech courses...

Why should an SOS website host this debate? Well I didn't start it, and anyway I am no more SOS than 99.9999% of forum members. SOS gives us a space to exchange views, and I'm not aware that its advertisers have ever sought to stop us doing that.

But if I had anything to do with SOS editorial policy, I'd probably be broadly in favour of giving people reasonably honest, accurate information before they made decisions which could cost them thousands of pounds and maybe waste years of their lives, all based on false hopes.

I genuinely think what is happening is a national scandal.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
coojuice



Joined: 29/10/07
Posts: 371
Loc: Scotland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: jellyjim]
      #651647 - 29/08/08 10:31 PM
I know a lot of more experienced people here have a different opinion than mine and that's perfectly alright with me. You obviously did things differently to get where you are today and fair play to you.

I'm just giving a point of view from someone on a course just now and I personally have found it to be of great use to me and not a waste of my time or effort. I may have different expectations from others who join courses but I can't speak for them.

I think jellyjim's idea could finally put this debate to an end...

Quote jellyjim:



given the bashing that the tech courses get let's hear one of the institutions defend themselves? perhaps even in a formal way, a SOS article or something ... come on tech course leaders, your courses get an absolute drubbing here from industry professionals, ex-students and amateurs alike

so, defend yourselves .. or is it all indefensible as some suggest?




This would make this topic more of a learning curve for us all

--------------------
easily pleased...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
molecular
member


Joined: 13/12/03
Posts: 756
Loc: north a bit, west a bit
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651657 - 29/08/08 11:32 PM
Quote narcoman:

The skills are piss easy to learn .... this is not a difficult job








--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651658 - 29/08/08 11:37 PM
I'm not sure it will - there are a few academics who usually chime in on these discussions, but maybe they too are wearying of it all now.

It's good you enjoy your course, but let's be clear: there's a shedload of public money going into teaching people how to have an interesting and rewarding hobby, in nearly all cases.

If I proposed setting up an Oxford degree course in railway modelling with public funds, how far do you think I would get? I could possibly credibly argue that 0.5% of graduates might, like Eric Marshall, end up with a viable tourist attraction for their efforts and this could make a valuable contribution to our "heritage industry". Do you think this would work?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5692
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #651661 - 29/08/08 11:48 PM
Steve, you may jape about these things ... but after a long chat with a very stressed sister of mine who is on the accreditation board for a certain well-known west London uni, you might stop making jokes like that and just weep for the future instead ...

Back on topic and responding to the original post, it sort of _has_ to be the old guard who are 'anti-course' as they are the last few people who had formal engineering education and can make the correct assessments. THAT's the whole point!

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
A Non O Miss



Joined: 07/02/08
Posts: 950
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dave B]
      #651665 - 30/08/08 12:23 AM
The "old guard" is mumbo jumbo. I agree with all of them and I'm in my 20's and had no formal training once so ever in music. However I have been through Uni and can say that pretty much regardless the course it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Good life experience, but a lot of money to learn things usually easier and better learned on your own.

Everyone is getting upset at their stance and how passionate they are in their opinions. What people are failing to realize is that they are the ones showing the most concern and care for the younger generation. Somehow a lot of people have this belief that it is the other way around, that instead they are fearing their jobs or positions?? HAHAHA

The schools and government want money, so they are not going to paint the full picture or overly emphasize the poor state and really nor should we expect them to. The educated people here are trying to make it blatantly obvious to anyone who may be browsing these forums of all the risks associated with these courses just to make sure they understand what they are getting into. These are important life decisions that can waste many years and lots of money that can be better put towards other things. That is all that can be done. They can warn and offer advice and then hope that smart decisions are being made.

What we shouldn't do is look upon them as the "old guard" or miserable old gits who are more concerned about protecting their buts. We should thank them for their candor and bluntness and put extra weight in their words.

If you don't like what they say then simply use it as motivation to prove them wrong. But be prepared for the old I told you so if it doesn't turn out.

People get warned all the time about smoking, the only benefit is early death. Yet there is money to be made so cigarettes are still produced and people still smoke them. This is the World we live in.

Edited by A Non O' Miss (30/08/08 12:58 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651674 - 30/08/08 03:32 AM
If the Old Guard, as so eloquently put, have their traditional formal education and experience to draw from, then they are entitled to make an informed argument. But students should also be allowed to make their informed arguments without being basically called hobbyists.

People rattle on about human skills, and how they're much more important than the degree. Well, I can say quite truthfully that for most people at uni, the degree is for 90% of the time the lowest priority. This is even true on an academic music course as much as a limp-wristed media studies course.

What's more, aside from the solid theory that one (should) leave with, my insitution allowed its students to become fluent in complex bartering for equipment, appeasement of staff members, bureaucracy and trouble-shooting. Furthermore, some of the limitations induced levels of creativity of epic proportions. It took me over three months to arrange for a 24-channel live recording system for use over last christmas, which involved insurance, transport, booking (read: bartering), purchase-orders, repair, failsafing and not a few gentlemen's agreements. Another student managed to get his recreation (score/foley/dialogue and all) of a Hollywood battle-scene into the office of its Hollywood composer!

In the above respect, it is not at all what the institution teaches, but in what the student does for himself, in his own time, with good intentions and with the support of like-minded peers. That is what going to a good institution is about.

It would not have made any difference if my tutor hadn't worked with Abba, Culture Club or the Beach Boys. The same few people would have done their exciting things regardless.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651707 - 30/08/08 09:11 AM
I know no-one who's priority at Uni wqs nothing other than getting their degree. Those that didn't place it high on importance failed in the first year. I guess that's where the money grabbing Uni's have changed. It is no longer about education - none of this is the students fault. It's the way of the west.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651729 - 30/08/08 11:09 AM
You miss the point, narc. The teaching was there for those that needed it. For entry into the second and third levels of tech, for instance, there was an mandatory introductory theory course. I got 87% coz I did my research at A level, but those who didn't have the theory on entry had that resource to improve.

My real point was the great things that happen when creative people get other people and things to play with, which, let's face it, you could not get on your own for the cost of a bachelor's degree.

(Nevertheless, it would be wrong for me to comment on the suitability of some students for any course)

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dave B]
      #651733 - 30/08/08 11:42 AM
Quote Dave B:

Back on topic and responding to the original post, it sort of _has_ to be the old guard who are 'anti-course' as they are the last few people who had formal engineering education and can make the correct assessments. THAT's the whole point!



I can't speak for the other old gits here but I haven't had ANY formal training.

What started off as an interest as a young teenager became a passion and later a career decision. Although I had a place at the Welsh College of Music and Drama, I turned it down to go down the road I had chosen because I knew that a formal qualification would be of no use whatsoever. Since that time, I have been in bands, done live PA work mixing for local bands, owned a professional studio, recorded crappy local bands, 'produced' demos, singles and albums for some promising and/or established local bands, written music for TV, done local session work for no-name bands, done London session work for some serious name artists (including playing on some successful singles and albums), written for SOS, taught at Gateway (RIP), designed the UIs for some fairly major products (that you have maybe bought/used), written their manuals and developed sound library for most of the major manufacturers. My current clients are nearly all major American manufacturers.

NOT ONE of these jobs in over 30 years has required me to show my qualifications ... EVER!! Which is just as well ... I don't have any!!

Edited by hollowsun (30/08/08 11:44 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #651753 - 30/08/08 03:25 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Since that time, I have .....



I should also add...

I started off with a basic knowledge, basic principles I'd learnt from books, magazines (such as they were back then - NOTHING like SOS existed ... neither did the internet of course) or catalogues and brochures, just looking at photos of front panels and figuring out how stuff worked and what the controls were for and/or just fiddling around with gear (sometimes in shops) ... then I acquired further knowledge through experience, watching (or working out) how others did it, through making mistakes (lots of them!!), through working with crappy gear and making the most of it and so on.

And this gradual acquisition of knowledge and the basic concepts over time and a broad range of gear and experiences gave me a more solid foundation than cramming it all at once because I had a chance to put each little nugget of knowledge into practice slowly and surely.

That's MY history - I am pretty sure the other old gits here have similar (maybe identical) experiences.

I think part of the problem these days is that some people want to know everything about everything instantly and look to courses to provide that. It doesn't work like that. You can pretty much learn how a car works in an afternoon but it doesn't mean you can drive one! Similarly, someone can tell you how a compressor works in an hour or less but it doesn't mean you could do a session and record a prima donna vocalist whose dynamics are all over the place (in that situation, a compressor may not be the answer - a diplomatic approach to dealing with the singer's performance technique might be a more appropriate solution!!). EQ is a simple concept as well - doesn't mean you can apply it tastefully. These all take time and experience to know. And even WITH years of experience, you're always winging it and adapting what you know - and sometimes breaking the rules - to suit any given situation.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9399
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651768 - 30/08/08 04:51 PM
Quote thomomatic:

Red Bladder,

I like people with strong opinions and i don't have a problem discussing but i think you are very strongly opinionated in one side only. And nothing we say/ discuss/ argue in this thread will make you change your mind. If you think that there are plenty of jobs but not for the people who do sound engineering courses fine, be like that, i don't mind.





why the hell would he change his mind?? he's pretty much right.....


he's not ALWAYS right.... but in this matter his thinking has always been bang on the money.....

I have a PGCE cert ed.

i don't use it . I stopped teaching M-tech to students 7-8 years ago... when all that this thread is covering became blatantly readily apparent to me from that side of the lectern.


some jobs are just too hard to ethically self justify....


it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.




(oh , and this particular member of the old guard studied Electronics and Physics (B.Eng & B.Sc) in between abusing assorted instruments, gigging live, on both sides of the desk, working in assorted studio and broadcast situations , building the odd studio or three, working for various manufacturers, running MI retail operations, and doing a lot of other stuff besides..... even found time to get married and have 5 kids...)


max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #651772 - 30/08/08 05:21 PM
Quote Max!:

it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.



Ah! The mark of a true gentleman!!!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651776 - 30/08/08 05:45 PM
Hi Max!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9399
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #651785 - 30/08/08 06:47 PM
watchya daddyo...

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #651787 - 30/08/08 06:57 PM
Quote Max!:

it's a bit like knowing how to play the bagpipes but refraining from doing so.




Poetry.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9369
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #651877 - 31/08/08 09:45 AM
Quote hollowsun:


I can't speak for the other old gits here but I haven't had ANY formal training.





Yes, but you arrived here in some kind of a pod from Krypton.
I've seen you wearing the 'attire' so don't deny it.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651930 - 31/08/08 12:34 PM
Ok, guys i think you pretty much covered everything, but "the old guard" certainly know their stuff, have vast experience and i never disagreed on that respect. Also some of you studied as well, maths, physics, electronics. all good. i did study electronic engineering, but i was interested in recording bands and making every possible music, and i didn't have any clue about mixing desks, microphones, live sound, frequencies, principles of mixing, compression, reverb and the lot...And old enough not to be able to get a job as a teaboy in a studio...so what were my options? I love music and recording/ mixing so i wanted to pursue this career -even if it is difficult and not well paid at all, who cares- its what i wanted to do! (the only thing that should stop me is my talent or the lack of it, for pursuing this career path) and not some people engineers or not saying "no jobs! bad education go and be a boring accountant, that's what you deserve to be! " that's not the attitude guys!

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
seejazz1



Joined: 05/05/06
Posts: 19
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651940 - 31/08/08 01:10 PM
I strongly agree with steve hill's earlier comment about 'we can all go to university'! As a secondary music teacher this is the bottom line - 'bums on seats to bring in the dough'. Just think about all the other dubious courses out there in 'universities' up and down the land. Tertiary education has been diluted for a political reason. I believe (some) music tech courses are a part of this.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651945 - 31/08/08 01:23 PM
Also, knowledge and learning it is a continuous procedure, never ends. I would never claim that a graduate of any degree, academic or private, the best or the worst (SAE in my opinion) once he graduates, he knows everything! Certainly not. Every day i learn. the fact is that doing a degree helps you understand certain things and digest information about acoustics, electronics, and all that, like maths and physics that without a degree i would not be able to understand. even if i was reading magazines and books and everything else. We cannot dismiss education completely, simply in the basis that a certain government that was supposed to be "Labour" with social politics, in fact sells out on every aspect of our life! health, education, housing, everything is part of money making procedure and profit! we cannot simply say to people don't study its a waste of time. If we dont like it, we have the option to leave the country, start an armed revolution, or vote someone else that we think we trust. Steve Hill's post certainly is right 100% thats what happened to universities, from this government. It would have happened with any other government as well. But its all part of the problems of modern life and politics...

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651961 - 31/08/08 02:23 PM
Quote Zukan:

Yes, but you arrived here in some kind of a pod from Krypton.
I've seen you wearing the 'attire' so don't deny it.



I told you not to tell anyone Zuke. My cover is blown!!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22303
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651970 - 31/08/08 03:27 PM
I think there are two very separate issues that are in danger of being confused and merged.

One is the notion that that some form of music-tech related tertiary education will lead, inevitably and with minimal self-effort, to a fantasic job in the music biz.

That is clearly utter nonsense, and is grossly misleading and damaging.

As has been pointed out, the number of annual course graduates exceeds the number of paying jobs across the entire industry by several orders of magnitude.

Of course, the very best one or two from each course may well find appealing work and do well -- the cream always rises to the top -- but most will be hugely disappointed and have acquired limited technical skills to help them secure work in other areas. Yes, they will have matured as a person and become more self-reliant, and may have developed some useful inter-personal skills along the way -- which is all well and good and a large part of the university experience -- but none of that is going to have much significance on a CV.

The other side of the coin is learning about music technology for the love of it....

In this case, though, we are esentially taking about hobbyists and the idea of running up the kinds of debt that most 'university' students do over three or four years just to further their hobby interests is, for anyone without millionaire daddies, utter madness!

It has been suggested many times here that anyone with a bit of intelligence and perserverence will gain more and spend less by buying some equipment of their own, experimenting, and reading the relevant magazines and books (which can be borrowed from libraries). I would support that argument as a far more cost-effective way forward -- but it does require self motivation to go out and find the information and advice for yourselves, rather than have it handed over on a worksheet.

Check out the background of most current pros, and that's what most of them did. Very few have had any significant formal training -- and while I am a strong supporter of formal training, there are very, very few univeristies/colleges to be able to do it right in a way that I would trust and be prepared to spend my own money on.

The only thing missing from this approach is the mentoring aspect and the ability to look over the shoulder of a pro -- but I'm not convinced in the ability of most colleges to provide this to any great degree anyway.

Instead, much can be gained from analysing how pros do their jobs. Watch Live from Abbey Road, for instance, and think about why they have positioned the musicians as they have, why they are using the mics they are and why they have placed them where they are... Forums are useful places to ask questions and gain advice too -- but be analytical about who is asnwering the questions, and weight thir opinions accordingly. Music tech education is worryingly close to the blind leading the blind in so many cases.

But as someone else has said, you should always be learning -- I certainly still am and I still love doing so.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651973 - 31/08/08 03:40 PM
God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Mike Stranks
active member


Joined: 03/01/03
Posts: 3966
Loc: Oxford, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651983 - 31/08/08 04:18 PM
Wildly off post, but forgive me...

I'm with Hugh; I drive my family to distraction by watching music shows on the box to look at what kit is being used, how it's placed on stage etc. etc. It's when I start talking about the reverb and compression though that things get really tense!

What a SOG I am!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22303
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652005 - 31/08/08 05:47 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!




Oh dear -- I think I've just passed the Geek test!

Actually, I watch it for the music (loved Chick Corea last night) but couldn't help notice the cobniation of Shure SM7 and Royer ribbons on some of the guitar amps, or the 4038 ribbons over the Corea drum kit. And I'm still trying to work out what the organs were (one was Yamaha I think, not sure about the other).

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #652017 - 31/08/08 06:59 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote Steve Hill:

God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!




Oh dear -- I think I've just passed the Geek test!

Actually, I watch it for the music (loved Chick Corea last night) but couldn't help notice the cobniation of Shure SM7 and Royer ribbons on some of the guitar amps, or the 4038 ribbons over the Corea drum kit. And I'm still trying to work out what the organs were (one was Yamaha I think, not sure about the other).

hugh




Did you see the "Black Keys" one? I'm no fan of the band, but man - the vocals and guitars sounded amazing .... very "Toe Rag" if y'like.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joe_caithness



Joined: 30/07/06
Posts: 262
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652032 - 31/08/08 08:05 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

God bless our Hugh... the man who watches Live From Abbey Road to study the mic positioning!




what else is there to watch it for!?

me and my brother often discuss this over whatever crap is on that week!



can I play devil's advocate and suggest these two statements are as damaging as eachother, baring in mind I am an ex Musi c Tech student who know works in the industry using his skills:

"there are no jobs to walk into"

"doing a music tech course allows you to walk into a job"

as they are both obviously lies, and like I said, as damagin g as eachother.


Let me give you another case study:

a very good friend of mine (who i know through all my bands recent records being produced by me and him at his studio, incidentally), left Confetti after a HND, did pretty well, and while we was doing this, bought up the gear as he learned it, set up a studio in his house, gained a rep (please note, alongside his course). When his course was over he had saved money, bought gear, gained contacts, he then moved it out into a unit armed with these things:

technical knowledge of industry standard gear (education)
his own industry standard gear (off his own back)
contacts from the course (and work infact) (education)
contacts from his home studio (off his own back)


and he is after one year looking at setting up studio 2 at a new unit.

my point?

in a climate which is not friendly for "lets make a recording studio and try and make a living", he has used BOTH the traditional and educational to his advantage, and shrugged off the negatives of both..

I think my closing point, and hopefully what I tried to achieve by provoking this argument is that times are/will/have changed, and not always for the better, but blank, ill-informed statements from either side are inhenrinlty damaging as they are fustrating.

Like a lot of things, striking a balance is going to work best (although not often in "combination technology", but thats another nerd debate!).

And as a 21 year old who has a job within the industry (although a very new sector) off the back of using course learned stuff as a foundation, and the bulk off my own back, I am not feeling this "THERE IS NO JOBS" thing at all, and therefore am seeing a lot of blokes with beards not willing to adapt, whether this is true or not!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652039 - 31/08/08 08:26 PM
Well - as an employer I'm TELLING you there are no jobs. It's just not open to debate. Of course there are a FEW jobs... stands to reason. but with over 4000 graduates a year there are no where near enough jobs to service the outflow. That's 4000 graduates in the UK alone. 30 professional studios don't need 4000 graduates per year. I've shown you how many CVs I've had this year. It's harder to make a living as a recordist than as a musician. MUCH harder.

To say you're "Not feeling it" isn't relavent when you DO have a job. You are one of the lucky few. No beards here - but I work within the employment sector of the industry. there just aren't loads of jobs. There aren't even four hundred new posts a year. 50,000 people chasing VIRTUALLY (there ya go - i've reworded it for ya!!) no jobs. when a marketing student leaves work, you can bet that well over half will get a job in a related sector. Or a law graduate. Or accountancy graduate. Or Mech Engineer, Civil Engineer (nearly 100% rate in that one!!) or computer programmer (again near 100%).

The figures I have seen (and that the music tech colleges will not tell you) is that fewer than 5% find employment in the sector. Not surprising when the whole of the industry is less than 20,000 strong.... and that includes the marketeers and executives!!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Jack Ruston



Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 4583
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652043 - 31/08/08 08:53 PM
Joe your mate didn't get an existing job, he set up his own business.

Lots of us do that. Some succeed, some don't. All sorts of reasons why.

The thing is though that this approach doesn't suit everyone, and its a very different path to the more traditional one of learning 'under' a more experienced engineer.

If anything your example shows that there are no jobs, because your mate, who clearly from what you've said can do a decent enough job, had to employ himself.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
Posts: 16
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652045 - 31/08/08 09:16 PM
An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.

The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.

some students take the course as an interesting side course to more 'academic' qualifications others are passionate about it from the outset and might combine the A level with 'Music A level'.

some progress to Further education and choose a very generic uni course (some because they haven't really decided what they want to do with themselves yet).

Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.

You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.

Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.

One of the biggest problems I see at A level is the quality of tuition. There are many institutions who offer the teaching position of a tech course to a traditional music teacher with no studio experience! through sheer ignorance. The exam boards even run courses to try and get lecturers up to speed. like staying one lesson ahead of your pupils this can't be good and only adds fuel to the fire. and yes I do know Joe satriani has talked about staying one lesson ahead when tutoring Steve Vai but thats different!

There is still a lot of scope around the set specifications to enthuse and educate students, supplying them with valuable and valid skills, that can be applied to many job definitions not just studio engineer.

Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hifistud2



Joined: 12/02/06
Posts: 795
Loc: Near Sunderland, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: 6strings1cable&1amp]
      #652085 - 01/09/08 12:05 AM
Quote RMarshall:

An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.




and a riposte from a studio owner and A Level Music Tech examiner...

Quote:

The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.




The old scheme did not - it barely scratched the surface and was diluted by being under the wing of the pure Music course(s). It majored on outmoded and (too frequently) incorrect information, and, in some cases, was examined prescriptively in an industry in which there are no prescriptive routes to success (in recording).

Quote:


Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.




And should already be making the tea at the local studio, getting as much live experience as he can, and be soldering cables and repairing amps...

Quote:

You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.




I'd suggest that the number of CVs that those of us who might (only might, mind) be in a position to offer a job (maybe once in ten years) offers the alternative view - that students do think their degree/A Level will fast track them.

Quote:

Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.




What pathway? It simply lumps them in with the however many thousands who have graduated this year!

Quote:

One of the biggest problems I see at A level is the quality of tuition. There are many institutions who offer the teaching position of a tech course to a traditional music teacher with no studio experience! through sheer ignorance. The exam boards even run courses to try and get lecturers up to speed. like staying one lesson ahead of your pupils this can't be good and only adds fuel to the fire. and yes I do know Joe satriani has talked about staying one lesson ahead when tutoring Steve Vai but thats different!




Oh, hell, yes... I taught MT in a secondary school, as a bought-in consultant (who also happens to be a qualified teacher), and the school simply wouldn't wear the expense - and I was not charging the earth - simply supply rates. The trad music staff were clueless. Utterly.

Quote:

There is still a lot of scope around the set specifications to enthuse and educate students, supplying them with valuable and valid skills, that can be applied to many job definitions not just studio engineer.




Hmmm... I'd argue with that, too. The basics are not there (or are not examined), and re-education for folks is the order of the day.

Quote:


Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.




Never going to happen, unfortunately, as schools will take a piece of paper over 30 years of experience, IMHO.

--------------------
[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652087 - 01/09/08 12:18 AM
Full Sail?

Ruddy hell, probably the most laughed at course on the planet!!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652108 - 01/09/08 07:08 AM
Let's be realistic. 90% of the places training for A-levels do not have the people or the equipment to do so, and even if they do have some equipment, it's stretched too thin for students to get enough hands-on experience with e.g. trying out compressor settings or whatever.

As for CVs... on the one hand you can't blame students for trying to make themselves look as good as possible. But despite that, I read loads of the things and say to myself "I'm sorry, but this guy is evidently clueless". Then I reflect on how many years and how many thousands of pounds have gone into achieving that result.

Of course the cream will rise to the top. But then what? I know some really good, experienced engineers who are out of work.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2581
Loc: . ...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: 6strings1cable&1amp]
      #652124 - 01/09/08 08:21 AM
Quote RMarshall:

An opinion from an A level music technology lecturer.




Funny, when I taught children, I called myself a teacher. When I then went on, several years later, to talk to students at a university, I called myself a lecturer.

Quote RMarshall:

The A level as I see it gives students a chance to experience and learn something about an industry that in the past has been only witnessed behind closed doors.




All work processes take place behind closed doors. That does not mean that we make A-Level courses out of, say, glass manufacture, or printing, or operating a JCB.

Quote RMarshall:

You have to be realistic with the work placement issue, and be honest and upfront with students. I don't think they expect to take an a level or university course and be instantly successful. but there is no reason why an education route is inferior or the wrong way to go about succeeding in an over subscribed industry. Talent, dedication and hard work will help you succeed.




With the massive exception of the Surrey Tonmeister course, every single person I have ever met that is working successfully in this industry dot not study Music Technology.

There are three owners of commercial studios taking part in this debate and not one studied MT or even music. All the A&R people I have ever dealt with, studied either business economics or music.

Quote RMarshall:

Full sail in America has produced some big talent. The degree won't guarantee a job but those dedicated students who work hard can and do achieve, does the education give them the job? No but it can supply the tools and a pathway.




Rubbish of the highest order. Full Sail is worse than the SAE.

Quote RMarshall:

Student quality is affected by teacher quality.

If only more experienced engineers could take these part time places in education and flush out all the pretend tech teachers.




May I be the first to pull your chain.

To Max (on agreeing with me) - Steady on there big boy! You'll be shaving next!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10881
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hifistud2]
      #652136 - 01/09/08 09:08 AM
Quote hifistud2:

Quote RMarshall:


Others choose the specialist course route (SAE etc) I have a talented dedicated student of 16 about to start A level next week who already has his sights set on a tonnmeister course.




And should already be making the tea at the local studio, getting as much live experience as he can, and be soldering cables and repairing amps...






I'm not sure about the repairing amps bit but, being able to demonstrate an interest in the subject beyond what is covered in the A level course is vital.

The real purpose of education in this business is to fill in areas of knowledge that are difficult to learn on the job. That's why most successful people have qualifications that aren't specifically music technology qualifications. Something like a physics degree will teach you all the basic knowledge you need - it is up to you how you apply it. If you need a little more guidance on applying the basic principles then an electronics or acoustics qualification might be better for you.

If you are more interested in the music side then a straight music qualification might also be more worthwhile. The Tonmeister course falls into this category (as far as I know) as it is much more music based than technology based.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Edited by James Perrett (01/09/08 09:10 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Setter
member


Joined: 06/11/02
Posts: 580
Loc: Tesside UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652147 - 01/09/08 09:49 AM
The best reason for taking a music technology degree is to have a bit of paper to allow you to teach it in schools.

As discussed above music departments could use some help teaching music technology. Whether schools ought to be teaching the A-level is of course a different issue. My own view is that for all sorts of reasons an A-level makes more sense than the full course for those who have an interest.

J


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
NorthernDreams



Joined: 05/08/08
Posts: 41
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652164 - 01/09/08 10:52 AM
Ohh yes its a strange one!

I actually studied at confetti......and the lecturers told me the truth......they said this isnt going to guarantee you a job, this and that.........but I couldn't care, I can;t concentrate on doing anything else other than something in music, and Im not good enough at anything else to do it if Im going to be honest........confetti did give me some damn good experience though, and it wasn;t as head in the clouds as people think it is, alot of the lecturers told you how it was going to be.......and to be honest I knew anyway.....but I couldn't help learning about music.

I now work as a music technician......I mean hey its not timbalands job, but I get paid to work in an area that I love.....and im sorry for the horribleeee cliche ahah....but that's all that matters to me for one!

I do agree with what people are saying on here though the universities need to be more open about this stuff, like the lecturers of their courses secretly are!

--------------------
Anthony Latue/Music and Media Technician/City College Coventry


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: NorthernDreams]
      #652193 - 01/09/08 12:07 PM
Quote NorthernDreams:

Ohh yes its a strange one!

I actually studied at confetti......and the lecturers told me the truth......they said this isnt going to guarantee you a job, this and that.........but I couldn't care, I can;t concentrate on doing anything else other than something in music, and Im not good enough at anything else to do it if Im going to be honest........confetti did give me some damn good experience though, and it wasn;t as head in the clouds as people think it is, alot of the lecturers told you how it was going to be.......and to be honest I knew anyway.....but I couldn't help learning about music.

I now work as a music technician......I mean hey its not timbalands job, but I get paid to work in an area that I love.....and im sorry for the horribleeee cliche ahah....but that's all that matters to me for one!

I do agree with what people are saying on here though the universities need to be more open about this stuff, like the lecturers of their courses secretly are!




they need to shut the ruddy things down - what the hell use are 250,000 music tech grads gonna be over the next ten years? Learn a bloody trade and enjoy music....

People wonder why all the work is going to Asia, Arabia and India..... seems like those nations have a better grasp of doing some ruddy work which is exactly why they deserve the economic growth they're going through - UK. A place full of people with their head in the clouds.... it's EXACTLY this kind of TV inspired "i wanna be famous man" - "i gotta do my music ..maaaan" crap that is turning out oodles of nothing...... I blame Simon Cowell..

Not entirely serious rant over...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
Posts: 602
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652195 - 01/09/08 12:13 PM
lol, thats a very non confrontational original question

education today is not about education anymore, it's about making money

thats all you need to say, you can work out the pitfalls of that ideology yourself:

student goes round colleges with fat grant cheque or private funds - colleges roll out flashy expensive gear to impress and bend the course not so much to what is required by the student, but rather to fullfil the student fantasies about fiddling with star-trek control panels

what student really needs is considered too boring and unimpressive to make them hand over grant money


-----
I speak as a 21 year old aspiring engineer, who is currently using his skills in therapeautic education, who went to Confetti in Nottingham, and although didn't learn everything, learned a damn slight more than if I "just got some work experience"
-----

work experience? - remember you're talking there about the education ground of pretty much all the worlds top producers and most of the top engineers who were all self taught via experience.


the snobbery seems to be reversed here - my son just finished an honours degree course - it was good to show him many aspects of the subject (like an art foundation course does) which allowed him to then discover & choose a specialisation subject he didnt know about and hadn't experienced, and which he has new decided is the feild he wants to build a career in if possible. That part was good... to experience briefly many areas of sound/audio work

on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.

horses for courses basicaly.

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #652260 - 01/09/08 02:45 PM
Quote Dr Whom:



i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.






Anyone remember competitive dad from the fast show?

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ParlourSound



Joined: 01/12/04
Posts: 167
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652266 - 01/09/08 03:00 PM
I for one feel very sorry for these music tech students. We are only a med size studio but I think I must get at least 30 CV's every month for student looking for a job or work experience. It's sad to think that some of them paid alot of money for these coures and can't get a job.

--------------------
Neil Haynes - The Parlour Recording Studio
The Parlour FaceBook Page


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Jez (mahoobley)
monkey


Joined: 21/03/03
Posts: 2219
Loc: East Midlands
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652272 - 01/09/08 03:09 PM
As an alternative opinion:

I did a Music Tech related Uni course at Leeds Met. Some aspects of it were totally mickey mouse - at the time the studios were deeply inadequate and some of the tuition was deeply dubious (including one tutor who I strongly believe was a con man after talking the uni to invest in a load of highly expensive gear at full RRP that he may well have been getting commission from). Some aspects were quite good - electronics, DSP, physics and psychoacoustics were covered, albeit in a relatively basic fashion compared to more pure courses, along with multimedia aspects such as video editing and so on.

Regardless of all of this, the most important thing of all was that attending uni put me into an environment of great creative opportunities that I would have never got an oar into elsewhere. I was around film, art and various other media students and was able to get a great deal of experience outside of coursework - I was able to do things, even at a pretty basic level, that I simply would not have had the opportunity to do had I stayed at home. I was also able to find my niche - that as a Sound Designer - which I have been working full time professionally for a number of years now. If I hadn't gone to uni, I wouldn't be where I am today.

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652273 - 01/09/08 03:14 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Let's be realistic. 90% of the places training for A-levels do not have the people or the equipment to do so, and even if they do have some equipment, it's stretched too thin for students to get enough hands-on experience with e.g. trying out compressor settings or whatever.

As for CVs... on the one hand you can't blame students for trying to make themselves look as good as possible. But despite that, I read loads of the things and say to myself "I'm sorry, but this guy is evidently clueless". Then I reflect on how many years and how many thousands of pounds have gone into achieving that result.

Of course the cream will rise to the top. But then what? I know some really good, experienced engineers who are out of work.




To be honest, this post together with Hugh's, are the most accurate and well put arguments against the thousands of graduates of music technology courses, and the courses themselves of course. The problem i think is mostly concentrating in the way that educations is handled in our times...and given to us, our children, friends etc....

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Pangloss
new member


Joined: 11/07/01
Posts: 736
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652287 - 01/09/08 03:46 PM
A friend of mine studied automotive design at a very reputable institution in Turin and one of the first things they were taught is that vanishingly few of them would ever get to work on anything close to a car. Even a car ashtray.

He then transferred halfway through to a similar school in the UK, which for some reason is rated with more kudos. The lecturers there simply would not honestly berate any of the students (now called “learners”, I believe), even when challenged to (my friend is Russian and has a very direct approach). Instead they were all given the feeling throughout that they were all on a path to designing the next Aston.

I think that Narcoman is right, that sensible legislation is needed. Good luck to you.

However, how many 18 year-olds actually hear the depressing/realistic advice that well meaning mentors give them? I know I didn’t. Like Gary Larson's cat, when people said to me, “Music? That’s the hardest industry out there”, I heard “Blah? Blah blah blah blah blah blah”. That advice was fine for everyone else but I was obviously the special case and as such I was at liberty to ignore their advice out of hand.

Fortunately I had a plan-B. I started out studying astrophysics at uni because (honestly) if I wasn’t going to be a rock star I would settle for astronaut. I wasn’t fussy, and after all there was no tea-boy route into that career as far as I knew.

Anyway, my friend did not go on to work on cars but he has started his own design business and, using some old contacts, now designs private jet interiors and mega yachts for oligarchs. It seems that starting your own business is a common theme here.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652288 - 01/09/08 03:50 PM
You could start a studio on the moon!

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Pangloss
new member


Joined: 11/07/01
Posts: 736
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652289 - 01/09/08 03:52 PM
I'm sure Alex James has already done that, no?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Mowens800



Joined: 16/06/05
Posts: 918
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #652320 - 01/09/08 05:45 PM
Quote Dr Whom:

on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?





no, it just makes either your son, or his course.. [ ****** ]

Don't see what the problem is. My college certainly doesn't advertise the course for getting a job. It is learning something you enjoy, new skills etc.

There's thousands of Psychology and Geography students for example who won't be getting a job in their chosen field (60% of graduates in ANY subject don't!!). I wonder if their is a mind-on-mind forum complaining about all these useless psychology students with their crappy piece of paper.

You can moan about it all you like on a forum, not going to achieve anything really. And student's wouldn't listen anyway if their heart is set on it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Mowens800]
      #652338 - 01/09/08 06:55 PM
Quote Anon101:

Quote Dr Whom:

on the other hand after 3 years of degree, he doesn't know what a compression ratio is, couldn't build a normalised patchbay pair of sockets from 2 stereo sockets or wire a small home studio setup or solder a mic lead or record a simple 8 track session etc

i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?







no, it just makes either your son, or his course.. [ ****** ]

Don't see what the problem is. My college certainly doesn't advertise the course for getting a job. It is learning something you enjoy, new skills etc.

There's thousands of Psychology and Geography students for example who won't be getting a job in their chosen field (60% of graduates in ANY subject don't!!). I wonder if their is a mind-on-mind forum complaining about all these useless psychology students with their crappy piece of paper.

You can moan about it all you like on a forum, not going to achieve anything really. And student's wouldn't listen anyway if their heart is set on it.




Well seeing as geography involves a HUGE amount for social economics I think you could argue that anyone involved in any business or demographic pursuits DOES get a job in their field. Same for Psych.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
Posts: 16
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652359 - 01/09/08 07:44 PM
I think this topic seems to be focusing on the wrong thing.

Degree's don't guarantee jobs and that is not only true of music.

Education is about learning and there is a lot that can be learnt from a good teacher, in a educational environment, I understand that you can learn pretty much anything from a book, the internet, sos etc and these resources are extremely useful tools that a student can add to his/(occasionally her) learning. Having a knowledgeable tutor to guide you through the learning process is surely also a valuable tool.

I agree that the music technology A level specifications are pretty dire in the way they assess skills learnt and the new specification isn't much of an improvement.

It is possible to equip a student with the skills needed to complete a task in many ways, they can be shown the bare minimum to get the task done, or you can equip the student with the knowledge to think for themselves about microphone choice and placement, correct gain structure, when to use compression etc etc. specifications don't tell you how to teach the methods they tell you what is expected as a result, it is then up to the teacher to provide good tuition and this an area thats needs to be addressed.

I know how many people graduate with music tech qualifications and many of those probably achieve their qualification with the minimum of effort and understanding, however some of those students combine their school learning with out of school learning like setting up home studios and recording bands, programming, live sound etc. these are the students that have benefitted from the education system the fact that they went to school doesn't mean their understanding of a subject is less valid because they achieved that understanding in a different way.

If you are relying on your piece of paper to get you the job then you shouldn't really get it anyway.

The industry has and is continuing to change and the need for music technology skills will still continue to be needed. Yes there will still be too many graduates but those candidates who worked hard and are able to adapt to new and different working environments (the ones with more than just a piece of paper) will find themselves ways of earning a living from a passion of theirs.

Don't forget the A level includes more than 'recording skills' composition, arrangement, programming and traditional musical skills are also included.

How many of you would have turned down a place on a music tech course had it existed?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
SunShineState



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1035
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652364 - 01/09/08 08:21 PM
Apologies if anyone else has already said this but the irony is that in the past when there were no courses there were lots more studios and potential jobs.

The reason there are few jobs is because there are few studios - the huge boom in home studios that started with the portastudios in the early 80s and has led to what we have today has killed the industry - so IMHO some of the studios that were going bust and had no customers came up with the idea of setting up courses instead - what else could they do - this has eventually led to the boom in audio engineering courses we have today.

Sadly I agree with most of the others here that although these may be interesting and fun they are a very poor bet for getting a career and a decent living - if you want to enjoy music do economics or computer science get a highly paid job in investment banking, then build a f*** off studio to spend any spare time you may have in!

Actually my youngest daughter who is 15 and a muso would love to do a music tech course but I'm afraid I will have to do my best to discourage her.

Sadly being a rich successful engineer/producer is like being a rich successful footballer / rock star etc - if you are one of the few that get there it's because you are incredibly luckly / pushy / in the rught place at the right time etc, etc, regardless of wheter you have talent or not - you would be better studying a "positive thinking and how to shaft people" course than music tech!

As many have said THERE ARE NO JOBS - only do a course if you can afford to have the fun and some way of making a decent living from something else!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652371 - 01/09/08 08:45 PM
there have never been loads of jobs in studio land, but yes - even less so now.

As for a degree not getting you a job - of course. But music tech courses - not only aren't there any jobs for the grads, the courses (apart from the high end ones mentioned) will STOP you getting work. I would NEVER employ someone on the strength they went to Confetti, for example. It would be a big point against, for me and many many others.

You don't need music tech to work in this industry. You need savvy and cunning. Music tech? RTFM for all the courses are worth.

But you can't be a lawyer or accountant or engineer or teacher or pilot or etc etc WITHOUT a degree in a relevant subject.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
Posts: 16
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652379 - 01/09/08 09:09 PM
I don't understand how a potential job candidate who has tried to gather as much knowledge as possible including studying that subject, would be turned away on the basis they tried to learn some skills by studying at a school. You may agree that the courses aren't the best they could be but surely the dedication and pursuit of that knowledge is worth something to a potential employer. If the position still requires them to make the tea i'm sure many would be grateful for the chance, at least thy are showing willing.

I don't see the A level as a threat when it can be studied alongside other subjects i.e. Music Math and Physics.

But I can understand and agree that putting your eggs in one basket is where the problem lies especially if it's the wrong basket.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: 6strings1cable&1amp]
      #652381 - 01/09/08 09:18 PM
Quote RMarshall:

How many of you would have turned down a place on a music tech course had it existed?




Me!

It's a silly question because it means nothing outside of the context of the individual faced with that decision at that time.

As it happens, I turned down all university education (although I had some offers, to read English, at redbrick universities), because at that time I preferred to earn some money to buy some guitars and amplifiers and stuff.

That day job got a bit out of hand and I ended up a partner in the biggest firm of accountants on the planet, and then chose to regard music as a hobby for a while, until I went back to it full-time, by choice, some years ago.

Quote narcoman:

But you can't be a lawyer or accountant or engineer or teacher or pilot or etc etc WITHOUT a degree in a relevant subject.




Not now, I agree. I got lucky, for long and convoluted reasons.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (01/09/08 09:21 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
6strings1cable&1amp



Joined: 25/09/04
Posts: 16
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #652389 - 01/09/08 09:57 PM
I too chose work over university and yes guitars were one of the main influences. I had a bad experience with education post 16 taking a full time music course that was poorly written and delivered and left me disgruntled.

I never intended to become a teacher or lecturer (actually my job title as was commented on earlier, I think they are trying to glorify the post). But when the opportunity arose I felt I could provide better tuition than my own experiences.

I teach part time and have been fortunate enough to find two institutions that were willing to employ me over the guys with degrees. It is possible and the rates are available although there is always someone new in finance to convince!

I see providing good quality A level tuition as an eye opener for students, a way of discovering the roles and job types without committing to making tea for two years in one of the remaining studios before deciding that working the graveyard shift recording awful bands wasn't as glamorous a career path as they thought. Instead they discovered sound design or composing for computer games and then chose an appropriate pathway to pursue it.

In the very first lesson at the beginning of term this very topic of conversation is discussed, once they leave there is not much I can do to stop then from enrolling on a FE course. I can only steer their pathways and the Tonnmeister is included as a goal for those seriously interested in a guide pack provided to potential students before the course, as their other A level choices are important Math and Physics etc.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2581
Loc: . ...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652399 - 01/09/08 10:51 PM
When I was a teacher, I was a clueless pratt as well.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
JamesSimpson



Joined: 24/12/05
Posts: 1081
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652402 - 01/09/08 11:02 PM
Just out of interest, if I for example applied for a work experience placement with any of the contributors to this thread. How many of you would count it against me that i am currently studying at a university and studying a music tech degree. I feel that failing to include that information could be even more disastorous apart from deliberately hiding the truth. Obviously everything is on a case by case basis.

I personally have become more frequently fed up with how i feel like my university is teaching me and my friends information that is utterly useless as far as employability goes. Occasionally i get something useful from the odd lecturer who goes out of there way. I feel like my best chances of getting employed come from my extra curricular activities. I have built a wah pedal from a basic kit, im capable of reading simple circuit diagrams, i can read music albeit slowly, i perform with my own band on a usually weekly basis. I am about to start building my own modular synthesizer from scratch. I would say that i am capable with a soldering iron, and hopefully at hobbyist level of recording.

I feel like the lecturers understand this, the pure music modules and composition are useful, and the recording modules seem almost useful although i tend to usually know how most of it is done due to spending hours reading these forums and having the magazine subscription. Some of the lecturers seem equally frustrated that they have to teach us modules such as the history of pop or music in the computer age, which are probably wonderful as an extra curricular activity for a music journalist, but i fail to see how they could ever help an aspiring engineer.

Alot of the people on my course i will admit seem to be there for lack of a better idea.

I seriously thought about dropping out this year to just attempt to go it alone as all my employable skills dont appear to come from what im spending £7000 a year on.

Oh and now would also seem like a good time to get an anonymous alias for this forum.

This rant probably doesnt appear to go anywhere so ill reiterate what i was originally asking which is if you recieved a cv doubtless what other credentials the person had would you count a music tech degree against them?

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
adam miller



Joined: 02/08/06
Posts: 84
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652404 - 01/09/08 11:19 PM
Just for some perspective, I only know two assistants that didn't do some form of music tech course. Of the rest, maybe half are tonmeisters and the rest are from all over the shop.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2581
Loc: . ...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652405 - 01/09/08 11:19 PM
Hi James!

We expect interns to be able to read a circuit diagram and an orchestral score with no difficulties and to have musical abilities beyond just formal reading. We also expect fluent computer skills.

I was talking to a professor of MT and he pointed out that when his students start, some 80% want to work in a studio. When they finish the course and have seen what work in a studio really entails, 20% or fewer want to work in a studio.

The work is poorly paid, it is very difficult and stressful and there are practically no prospects for promotion, travel, or even something as normal as a company car.

If you study Business Economics and German, you could work for Aldi in their management scheme, get a company car, a dream salary and travel the World.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Neil C
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 2616
Loc: Under a PlopEgg
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #652407 - 01/09/08 11:33 PM
Quote The Red Bladder:


If you study Business Economics and German




Ooh, yes please, that really fires me up.

Quote The Red Bladder:


you could work for Aldi in their management scheme, get a company car, a dream salary




My god, I see it now, I've wasted my life.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Seaforth
member


Joined: 27/08/02
Posts: 274
Loc: East Anglia, Great Britain
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652408 - 01/09/08 11:35 PM
Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?

I know loads of people think it's utterly anal and stupid to be troubled about these things and I appreciate that there are very knowledgable people who can't spell. But the "Hey, i can't be arsed to press that shift button - just get a life, dude im rockng" mentality is so flipping depressing.

Isn't attention to detail a vaguely worthwhile skill? No doubt I've made millions of basic errors in this small submission but I don't care. And I don't care because I am sick and tired of people who are in "Higher Education" or "Further Education", be it as pupils, students, teachers or lecturers displaying such a lamentably poor grasp of the English language. And if anyone is inclined to claim that their English is fine but they're just disinclined to bother well...they're worse. (People who do not speak English as a first language may have their sentence commuted, if they're very nice to me).

Thank you and goodnight.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Neil C
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 2616
Loc: Under a PlopEgg
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652409 - 01/09/08 11:58 PM
Quote Seaforth:

Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?





Yes, it should be included if you're seriously interested in a guide pack.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
JamesSimpson



Joined: 24/12/05
Posts: 1081
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652411 - 02/09/08 12:05 AM
Quote Seaforth:

Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?





Im not sure if this was directed specifically at me, or at the thread in general. Either way I'm going to challenge it to a certain extent.

If I was writing a letter directly to an employer i would go to every length to check the spelling, grammar and punctuation. As it is I'm only asking for advice on a relatively casual forum, same as everybody else. I understand that many prospective employers/industry bods hang around here and as such may take notice of blatant written errors. I would hope that everybody can have their professional and casual hats on at different times.

So long as a post is readable and not just a big chunk of sprawling one sentence drivel, everybody can manage okay. Gearslutz and Harmony central tend to be a lot worse.

I also understand that it must be irritating to everybody to get covering letters and poorly written CV's from supposed "University level students".


Thanks for the advice The Red Bladder. I am only 19 and hopefully I can push myself further, hopefully in the next year I can expand my portfolio a lot further and add to my music and electrical expertise.

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
stevie j



Joined: 22/05/07
Posts: 279
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652414 - 02/09/08 12:44 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:



If I was writing a letter directly to an employer i would go to every length to check the spelling, grammar and punctuation. As it is I'm only asking for advice on a relatively casual forum, same as everybody else. I understand that many prospective employers/industry bods hang around here and as such may take notice of blatant written errors. I would hope that everybody can have their professional and casual hats on at different times.

So long as a post is readable and not just a big chunk of sprawling one sentence drivel, everybody can manage okay. Gearslutz and Harmony central tend to be a lot worse.





Should the ability to use the Queen's English not be second nature by the time you are 19?

I am also 19 and hate 'text speak' and poor grammar. The amount of people confusing their 'yours' and 'theres' etc. really annoys me. It smacks of ignorance and laziness even if it is on a forum.

The English language is there to help people understand the ideas you are trying to get across. Make it easy for us.

--------------------
Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Seaforth
member


Joined: 27/08/02
Posts: 274
Loc: East Anglia, Great Britain
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: stevie j]
      #652415 - 02/09/08 12:50 AM
Quote stevie j:

Quote JamesSimpson:




The English language is there to help people understand the ideas you are trying to get across.




Well said, that man.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Dishpan



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 813
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652416 - 02/09/08 01:00 AM
> No doubt I've made millions of basic errors in this small submission but I don't care.

> And if anyone is inclined to claim that their English is fine but they're just disinclined to bother well...

Irony is a wonderful thing!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dishpan]
      #652423 - 02/09/08 02:51 AM
not too much starch please..........





ooopps sorry i thought yu said ironing.....




coat acquired... door headed for....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ConcertinaChap



Joined: 20/07/05
Posts: 2778
Loc: Bradford on Avon
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652424 - 02/09/08 03:37 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:

So long as a post is readable and not just a big chunk of sprawling one sentence drivel, everybody can manage okay. Gearslutz and Harmony central tend to be a lot worse.



Which of course is one reason why I prefer this forum ...

I suspect many people of your age (sounds condescending, but I'm not sure how else to say it) don't realise just how aggravating to people of, shall we aay, more advanced years text speak is. To you it's a sign of easy informality. To us it's a large fingernail on the blackboard of life.

So, yes, we can manage OK, but on a forum where many (including myself at 57) fall into the older group don't you think it would be considerate to humour us? Just a thought ...

Chris

--------------------
Somehow the future isn't what it used to be.
Mr Punch's Studio


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652455 - 02/09/08 07:37 AM
Quote Seaforth:

Isn't the persistent poor spelling, punctuation and grammar just a little bit concerning?

I know loads of people think it's utterly anal and stupid to be troubled about these things and I appreciate that there are very knowledgable people who can't spell. But the "Hey, i can't be arsed to press that shift button - just get a life, dude im rockng" mentality is so flipping depressing.

Isn't attention to detail a vaguely worthwhile skill? No doubt I've made millions of basic errors in this small submission but I don't care. And I don't care because I am sick and tired of people who are in "Higher Education" or "Further Education", be it as pupils, students, teachers or lecturers displaying such a lamentably poor grasp of the English language. And if anyone is inclined to claim that their English is fine but they're just disinclined to bother well...they're worse. (People who do not speak English as a first language may have their sentence commuted, if they're very nice to me).

Thank you and goodnight.




this is a point worth raising. however, i don't think you should be so quick to judge people on their writings on an online forum.

i am as picky as the next man about correct grammar and punctuation, but i'm also well aware that many of the most intelligent and creative people i know struggle with spelling, despite English being their mother tongue. if using abbreviations allows them to get their point across more clearly, then i have no problem with it. when txtspk (ugh) becomes more an obfuscation than anything else, then it is to be discouraged. (as an aside, use of heavily abbreviated language online is not a phenomenon restricted to the young, ConcertinaChap - i know plenty of fifty-somethings on other fora who write equally badly!).

likewise, i choose to not use capitals much of the time - to emphasis a tone of voice. this is as much an online convention as anything else; the opposite, ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING, is well known. it's a deliberate choice on my part to use lower case.

i know the temptation to dismiss people based upon their language skills is strong, but if this forum is as enlightened as it claims to be (and has been in the past), then we should focus on the content of people's posts, rather than whether they have missed a comma out.

(and before we get into the discussion of "your posts on this public forum can and will be read by your employers", there's a reason people use psuedonyms.)

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Edited by onesecondglance (02/09/08 07:47 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
NorthernDreams



Joined: 05/08/08
Posts: 41
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652462 - 02/09/08 07:58 AM
i carent b-leave it!

wat on urth r u guyz talkin bout!


ahah Just messin'......

I mean, I appologise, I am just joking!

(I now feel really self conscious about my spelling! )

--------------------
Anthony Latue/Music and Media Technician/City College Coventry


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9369
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652471 - 02/09/08 08:22 AM
My input into this debate comes from another angle, that of a tutor that is inundated with students that want 1-2-1 tuition and 90% of all these applicants have already been on the courses mentioned above.

What strikes me as amazing is the incredible lack of 'correct' knowledge that these students have and it is their recognition of this lack of 'substance' that has led them to me and many like me.

When you bear in mind the huge learning curves required today in all aspects of the technical side of our industry, and far more than in my day, then it amazes me that so little is taught and the little that is taught is taught badly.

If someone chooses to enter our industry and decides to go down the 'learning' route and is fully aware of the end result and potential in the market place then it is our duty to afford that person the correct knowledge and experience............not to fleece them for all they are worth.
And that is my gripe!

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10881
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652472 - 02/09/08 08:30 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:

Just out of interest, if I for example applied for a work experience placement with any of the contributors to this thread. How many of you would count it against me that i am currently studying at a university and studying a music tech degree.




Your choice of university would tell us whether you chose a university with low entrance requirements because you didn't have great grades at A level or, if you have good grades at A level, it would tell us that you hadn't researched your chosen career very well.

Most employers recognise that there is a hierarchy in the university system although many of them may be out of date when it comes to the exact placings in the hierarchy. If you are studying at a less well established university you are going to struggle to convince employers that you are good, no matter what your degree.

But your university course is just one thing on your CV. As many of us older codgers have said here, what really counts is the ability to demonstrate that you can do the job. At my first job interview as an 18 year old I was able to talk about recordings I had done with unconventional mic positioning and explain why I had done it and what I would do differently next time. I was already doing demos and live recordings for bands and recording college shows. I didn't have the knowledge (or patience) to work in a studio at that point but I was well on the way to acquiring the knowledge. I didn't have much gear - just a stereo reel to reel with sound on sound and a couple of cheap mics but it was enough to keep me going.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
coojuice



Joined: 29/10/07
Posts: 371
Loc: Scotland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #652479 - 02/09/08 08:46 AM
Looking through the adverts for these music tech courses in the SOS magazine I don't see anywhere that they claim to guarantee you a job once completed. I'd like to know where this thinking comes from?

Is it from people who were misled from these course developers prior to attending them? This is a genuine concern I have as I don't think it's fair for someone to waste their time and effort on a course when they are clearly being led up the garden path.

What I don't understand is how can anyone that hasn't been on one of these courses honestly tell someone that it's a waste of time if they haven't experienced it? It appears the general dislike of these courses are from people who haven't even been on one and that's a bit unfair even if it genuinely the case.

I find it very ironic that so much of us on here have this negative feeling towards such learning opportunities but are happy enough to see these course advertisements within the SOS magazine! Does the SOS magazine Editorial Team think they are a waste of time but are happy to have them pay the bills anyway and not care about their customers? I think not!

I honestly think that there is this divide simply because that's the way the world has always worked. The old vs the new! In which case i'm neither...

Anyways, there may be valid points to each side here but only from a perspective where someone has experienced it and not just heard of it, which has mainly not been the case in this post.

--------------------
easily pleased...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
PaulD



Joined: 04/01/03
Posts: 1270
Loc: Bristol UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652480 - 02/09/08 08:48 AM
Hi
On the point no jobs = make your own self-employed way:
Business skills are 100% important in this:
a) to make the enterprise profitable, or
b) to recognise when to wind the thing up (and DO IT) without damage when things don't work out.

So if music tech in some form is what you love and want to do -
Go to uni to study BUSINESS, because that's the difficult bit that is NOT easy to learn from self-study on your own - if you are someone who really loves music...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #652488 - 02/09/08 09:06 AM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

Looking through the adverts for these music tech courses in the SOS magazine I don't see anywhere that they claim to guarantee you a job once completed. I'd like to know where this thinking comes from?

Is it from people who were misled from these course developers prior to attending them? This is a genuine concern I have as I don't think it's fair for someone to waste their time and effort on a course when they are clearly being led up the garden path.

What I don't understand is how can anyone that hasn't been on one of these courses honestly tell someone that it's a waste of time if they haven't experienced it? It appears the general dislike of these courses are from people who haven't even been on one and that's a bit unfair even if it genuinely the case.

I find it very ironic that so much of us on here have this negative feeling towards such learning opportunities but are happy enough to see these course advertisements within the SOS magazine! Does the SOS magazine Editorial Team think they are a waste of time but are happy to have them pay the bills anyway and not care about their customers? I think not!

I honestly think that there is this divide simply because that's the way the world has always worked. The old vs the new! In which case i'm neither...

Anyways, there may be valid points to each side here but only from a perspective where someone has experienced it and not just heard of it, which has mainly not been the case in this post.




..because they're exploitative. Money first - education worth second. THAT's why. People pay money for useless badly taught crap, fueled by young naivety. The courses pray on those who don't know any better. We're trying to re-dress the balance.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: PaulD]
      #652490 - 02/09/08 09:07 AM
Quote PaulD:

Hi
On the point no jobs = make your own self-employed way:
Business skills are 100% important in this:
a) to make the enterprise profitable, or
b) to recognise when to wind the thing up (and DO IT) without damage when things don't work out.

So if music tech in some form is what you love and want to do -
Go to uni to study BUSINESS, because that's the difficult bit that is NOT easy to learn from self-study on your own - if you are someone who really loves music...




FINALLY! Someone who gets it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #652506 - 02/09/08 09:42 AM
Quote tobacco_slammers:

Looking through the adverts for these music tech courses in the SOS magazine I don't see anywhere that they claim to guarantee you a job once completed. I'd like to know where this thinking comes from?




two examples of many "implied employment prospects"

"professionals are made, not born."

"industry contacts and placements"


Quote tobacco_slammers:


Is it from people who were misled from these course developers prior to attending them? This is a genuine concern I have as I don't think it's fair for someone to waste their time and effort on a course when they are clearly being led up the garden path.




if you read back ver the last 6 years or so of V2 ad V3 forums you'l find there are many tales of precisely that.


Quote tobacco_slammers:


What I don't understand is how can anyone that hasn't been on one of these courses honestly tell someone that it's a waste of time if they haven't experienced it? It appears the general dislike of these courses are from people who haven't even been on one and that's a bit unfair even if it genuinely the case.




1) some of them used to teach these courses.... (some still do) , some have had first hand experience of dealing with the often entirely useless end product from a front line supervisory role at an employers stand point.... often as a result of management hiring a piece of paper (more usually some time ago... before the general industry cottoned on to how poor some of them were...) , and some have the common sense to add 2 and 2 and get 4...
supply and demand is a universal precept... except in this industry... where the supply is far outstripping the demand, and therefore , as per any other economic system, the supply is devalued....

2)How is it not fair if it's genuinely the case??







Quote tobacco_slammers:


I find it very ironic that so much of us on here have this negative feeling towards such learning opportunities but are happy enough to see these course advertisements within the SOS magazine! Does the SOS magazine Editorial Team think they are a waste of time but are happy to have them pay the bills anyway and not care about their customers? I think not!




Hugh and Paul (and others) have publicly "expressed their reservations " about the quality and usefulness of many courses... I know also that Hugh has consistently turned down offers of employment on any of them... n matter what money was offered....
But it's a subject that perhaps should be left alone... advertising revenue IS critical in ensuring SOS 's continued existence... and while they don't really pander to the advertisers , they'd also probably prefer not to piss them off royally either.......
SOS is a business and SOMEONE has to pay the piper, the printer, the distributor, the contributors, and it must still make money... I'd postulate that the reason it's slightly thinner than it was a couple of years back , and that development of additional features and services is slower than then, is the removal of the majority of retail based advertising..... The revenue IS important ..... Oh, it would probably survive with none, but in a very much reduced capacity... and who on earth wants that?


Quote tobacco_slammers:


I honestly think that there is this divide simply because that's the way the world has always worked. The old vs the new! In which case i'm neither...

Anyways, there may be valid points to each side here but only from a perspective where someone has experienced it and not just heard of it, which has mainly not been the case in this post.




I'd have to disagree , but then you kind of knew that was coming,,,,

I'd say the majority of the nay-saying old guard , really do have the common good at heart... in the long term, what's good for the potential student is likely to be good for the industry.... call it enlightened self interest..... and none of them enjoy seeing people mislead or ripped off...

try calling round the manufacturers and asking where all their technically related, qualification holding, staff under 30 graduated from... in many cases, it's exclusively from the surrey Tonmeister course. the most common alternative is a pure science/engineering physics/math/electronics type course.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #652507 - 02/09/08 09:43 AM
Quote narcoman:

Quote PaulD:

Hi
On the point no jobs = make your own self-employed way:
Business skills are 100% important in this:
a) to make the enterprise profitable, or
b) to recognise when to wind the thing up (and DO IT) without damage when things don't work out.

So if music tech in some form is what you love and want to do -
Go to uni to study BUSINESS, because that's the difficult bit that is NOT easy to learn from self-study on your own - if you are someone who really loves music...




FINALLY! Someone who gets it.




err yeah, but he's a long standing respected member of the old guard... they ALL pretty much get it....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2581
Loc: . ...
Re: anti music tech education - the madness continues! new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652519 - 02/09/08 10:18 AM
The madness continues!

I just got a call this morning from a university, asking if I would be interested in graduates from their new Music Recording Technology course they are starting up next year!

I told them to read this thread and others like it on other forums.

The woman who called seemed to be completely unaware of the state of the recording industry. She was amazed to hear that there are just 30 commercial recording studios in the UK. She was unaware that the whole recording studio scene in the UK has an annual turnover of about £10m (give or take a couple of million) and that the three A's account for over half that.

She did not even know that about 2,000 graduates of three-year MT courses are entering the employment market every year in the UK alone.

She honestly thought that the BBC would be interested in these graduates.

Just how clueless are these people?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
thenaturallevel



Joined: 28/02/07
Posts: 1211
Re: anti music tech education - the madness continues! new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #652521 - 02/09/08 10:22 AM
Quote The Red Bladder:


The woman who called seemed to be completely unaware of the state of the recording industry. She was amazed to hear that there are just 30 commercial recording studios in the UK. She was unaware that the whole recording studio scene in the UK has an annual turnover of about £10m (give or take a couple of million) and that the three A's account for over half that.




Sums it up really.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Arpangel
active member


Joined: 12/07/03
Posts: 5527
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652530 - 02/09/08 10:45 AM
I didn't think there was anything wrong with training in the old days, the BBC, and work experience in engineering etc. Years ago If your aspirations were to become a commercial engineer you'd have to know about certain things like lining up tape machines, a knowledge of electronics if things went wrong, things were a lot more involved in those days, and yes, you did need to be an "engineer" in every sense of the word.
Today, from a technical point of view the engineers life has become a lot easier, and you don't need as many traditional engineering skills as you did in the past. What can you teach someone these days ? Providing you have a good working knowledge of the main recording software that your studio uses the rest is purely down to personal taste and experience. Mic techniques ?? are down to personal likes and dislikes, and experience.
The days of being able to get a job based purely on your technical and engineering qualifications are over in my opinion, which brings into question the validity of at least a few of the courses on offer these days.

Tony.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652565 - 02/09/08 11:52 AM
training isnt the issue though.
Training 100 times as many people as you need, and doing it badly - well that is the issue.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
kcseb
member


Joined: 24/03/01
Posts: 94
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652593 - 02/09/08 12:44 PM
Personally I think it's this...plenty of people get obsessed with music and music technology and find their own path from their teen years onwards to get involved, even if it means making certain sacrifices to do just that.

Now what sort of person with any genuine passion and interest needs to be convinced via an advert to study the subject? If you care that little and didn't get off your own arse in the first place, that could suggest a problem.

OK there are always exceptions, I'm sure there are good people who do these courses hoping to build on what they've already learnt themeselves, but the OVERALL atmosphere I think survives of half-arsed teaching, half-arsed learning, and focusing on the prize more than the craft.

It's not solely music tech I'm sure, no doubt film and other media courses suffer from it too.

And yes I did do one of these courses.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
JamesSimpson



Joined: 24/12/05
Posts: 1081
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Seaforth]
      #652600 - 02/09/08 12:54 PM
Quote Seaforth:

Quote stevie j:

Quote JamesSimpson:




The English language is there to help people understand the ideas you are trying to get across.




Well said, that man.




You implied that you made errors but you didn't care and then said that you have no time for people that make errors and don't care?!

You also missed out the "i" in rocking. I too get frustrated with txtspk used on internet forums. So long as the English is fairly well constructed and makes sense I don't have a problem. 95% of the people on this forum make mistakes but its all perfectly reasonable.

The majority of the planet does not speak colloquially how their written language is written. I see this forum, as do many others as a casual area. We are not writing publishable(sp?!) material. This is what the sounding off column is for in the magazine.






Back on topic, it is useful having these discussions from a student point of view if only to point out the glaring omissions from my experience so I know what to start working on. I'm sure many others would agree.

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7812
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652633 - 02/09/08 02:00 PM
Am I the only one that thinks this thread should be put out of its misery?

Shooting would be quickest & kindest, I think...

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: kcseb]
      #652634 - 02/09/08 02:01 PM
Quote kcseb:

Now what sort of person with any genuine passion and interest needs to be convinced via an advert to study the subject?



The trouble is that there's more than a hint of the 'X-Factor/Pop Idol' about it for some people (not all of course) ... i.e. the implication of 'just do this and you're sorted in the glamourous biz that is music for life'. Which is bollox.

As narco says, they are preying on kids who don't know better and whose valuable time at that important time in their lives could (and maybe should) be spent doing something more useful. If, with something more useful under their belt, they then want to schlepp it up and down the the motorways of the UK, sleeping rough in vans or dodgy B+Bs and/or pandering to talentless cockmonkeys, blah, blah, blah, for little (and sometimes no) money, that's their prerogative. Good luck to 'em. And IF they manage to make a career out of it through sheer and dogged perseverance (and being damned good at what they do), then more power to their elbow - God bless 'em all.

If, however, they DON'T manage to make anything of it (and the vast majority won't), they can fall back on their 'useful' degree/training/whatever to pursue something that will pay the rent/mortgage and will have a future with some degree of security and prospects - the music/engineering can simply be a hobby or semi-pro activity (and it may well be a damned sight more enjoyable as a hobby than as a precarious 8am-3am job which, believe me, can sap the 'enjoyment' out of it all).

I sometimes wish I'd had some 'old guards' giving me this advice back when I was 18 especially when I see old mates of mine in regular jobs (that they enjoy) getting paid more than me, having holidays, a decent motor, etc., and then having a blast with their band playing gigs on a semi-pro basis. There are plenty on this forum who do just that.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
stevie j



Joined: 22/05/07
Posts: 279
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #652638 - 02/09/08 02:19 PM
Quote hollowsun:



As narco says, they are preying on kids who don't know better and whose valuable time at that important time in their lives could (and maybe should) be spent doing something more useful. If, with something more useful under their belt, they then want to schlepp it up and down the the motorways of the UK, sleeping rough in vans or dodgy B+Bs and/or pandering to talentless cockmonkeys, blah, blah, blah, for little (and sometimes no) money, that's their prerogative. Good luck to 'em. And IF they manage to make a career out of it through sheer and dogged perseverance (and being damned good at what they do), then more power to their elbow - God bless 'em all.

If, however, they DON'T manage to make anything of it (and the vast majority won't), they can fall back on their 'useful' degree/training/whatever to pursue something that will pay the rent/mortgage and will have a future with some degree of security and prospects - the music/engineering can simply be a hobby or semi-pro activity (and it may well be a damned sight more enjoyable as a hobby than as a precarious 8am-3am job which, believe me, can sap the 'enjoyment' out of it all).






Exactly what I'm doing. I'm a student studying Biomedical Sciences. But on the side I am a sound engineer, for the last year or so I have been working freelance (With loads of learning and practice for a year or two beforehand).

I called up a sound engineer after getting his number from a PA hire shop he has a contract with. He gave me a wee bar gig with a bunch of nobodies to see how I'd cope, turns out I did well and he passed my number round to other engineers and I cover for them when they're double booked etc.
On top of that, I have made loads of contacts from the gigs I have done for them and I am now making a lot more money than anyone else I know in uni and am getting out and about with all sorts of musicians. Most recently Eric Bell and Henry McCullough, and also Amy Winehouse's sax player.

Of all the music tech student's/grads I know, there's only one that I know of who actually works in pro audio. He posts on this forum.

The way see it is, my year or so of working freelance will be much more of an incentive for an employer to employ me than having spent two or three years in a classroom with no hands on experience.

Its exactly the same problem with trades, I have mates who stayed on to do A-levels, and that clearly didn't suit them. They went to do an apprenticeship after their A-levels, and even at that, only two day's a week is hands on, three are in the classroom.

--------------------
Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
JamesSimpson



Joined: 24/12/05
Posts: 1081
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652646 - 02/09/08 02:40 PM
I'm not sure this thread needs locking at all, I think a lot of it seems open minded discussion. Its never got nasty or personal. If anything a cut down version could be done with being made sticky.

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: stevie j]
      #652660 - 02/09/08 03:07 PM
Quote stevie j:

Exactly what I'm doing. I'm a student studying Biomedical Sciences. But on the side I am a sound engineer, for the last year or so I have been working freelance (With loads of learning and practice for a year or two beforehand).

I called up a sound engineer after getting his number from a PA hire shop he has a contract with. He gave me a wee bar gig with a bunch of nobodies to see how I'd cope, turns out I did well and he passed my number round to other engineers and I cover for them when they're double booked etc.



And that's how it has pretty much always worked (and probably always will) in this biz for the most part.

Good luck to you mate in both your endeavours. At least if the sound engineering doesn't work out, a career (and probably a lucrative one) beckons in biomedicine. But there's another thing...

You can CHOOSE which route you want to pursue - if you grow tired of the sound engineering, you have something to fall back on and you can choose to walk down another career path.

And here's something that's not been brought into the equation....

Settling down.

Easy to dismiss it but inevitably it happens - people find someone and choose to commit and sometimes, the partner is not best enamoured at you being out all hours of the night gigging or being permanently away chasing jobs. At first, it can be a novelty but they can tire of being broke, even subsidising their other half's musical activities. Most of the guys I used to play and gig and record with back in the day who fell by the wayside did so under pressure from their other half... or genuinely preferred domesticity with their loved one. So they focused on their day job (or went out and got one) and 'settled down'...

And they're the guys having a blast now gigging and recording for fun and enjoyment.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Nathan



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 1899
Loc: lincolnshire government experi...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #652692 - 02/09/08 04:08 PM
settling down..?

oh yes, that's familiar

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #652700 - 02/09/08 04:44 PM
Quote JamesSimpson:

I'm not sure this thread needs locking at all, I think a lot of it seems open minded discussion. Its never got nasty or personal. If anything a cut down version could be done with being made sticky.




def not. Everyone's being very nice about it all. No nasties..let's keep it that way !!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22303
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Arpangel]
      #652702 - 02/09/08 04:48 PM
Quote arpangel:

Years ago If your aspirations were to become a commercial engineer you'd have to know about certain things like lining up tape machines, a knowledge of electronics if things went wrong, things were a lot more involved in those days, and yes, you did need to be an "engineer" in every sense of the word.

Today, from a technical point of view the engineers life has become a lot easier, and you don't need as many traditional engineering skills as you did in the past.




It hasn't changed -- and in some ways, it has actually become more complex. There may be less need to tinker with transistors and capacitors these days, but instead you now need to be competent with both computer platforms, network systems, RAID arrays and all manner of other IT stuff.

But all the core audio skills are exactly the same. You still need to understand how mics work and the qualities inherent in the various designs to use them effectively. You still need to understand gain structures. You still need to understand the difference between filters, shelf and bell equalisers, and how to use them to achieve the required results, you still need to understand dynamic processing and the trade-offs inherent in the various parameters. You still need to understand acoustics, and monitoring and ... None of that has changed.

What has changed is the prevalent mindset that you can now mess about for hours with a computer software package and eventually stumble on a combination of processing and settings that work. Nobody minds that it took six hours to achieve something that a competent and properly trained sound engineer could have achieved in under an hour, because in the context of a home studio there is no bill to pay, and messing about with the computer is quite fun to many people.

Quote:

What can you teach someone these days ?




Lots. Although I only run courses occasionally now, and mainly for corporate clients like the BBC, SIS and Sky, there is still serious demand for high level technical training in those organisations that rely on people knowing what they are doing. I'm also involved in running a course on mic placement skills for the IBS soon too, and that is open to all. (www.ibs.org.uk)

Quote:

Mic techniques ?? are down to personal likes and dislikes, and experience.




Only partially. There is a lot of science and technique involved to get it right, and if you understand that you can select the most appropriate mic and place it in the most appropriate position straight away, and then fine tune by ear. Without that underpinning knowledge you'll either be faffing around trying different mics in wildly different places hoping to stumble across something that works before the musicians die, or you'll stick a mic up where you saw someone else put it once, and never actually know why or whether that really gets the best sound. The latter approach is the most common, and is always followed by diving straight for the EQ to try and bend a less than ideal source sound into something more acceptable.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
Posts: 602
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #652724 - 02/09/08 06:33 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:



i on the other hand have no papers, just 30 years experience, but I am 1,000,000 miles ahead of him in the subject.... does that make me a PHD in the subject then?

it should.






Anyone remember competitive dad from the fast show?





no no no, it's nothing to do with that, i'm very proud of what he's achieved knowing what a minefeild of PC bullcrap it was to wade thru, it's just that it's lacking in so many basic areas pertaining to real life.

anyways, i'm not even going to 'go there' on my opinion on modern education, i'll be lyched by the 'pc mob'

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Arpangel
active member


Joined: 12/07/03
Posts: 5527
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #652737 - 02/09/08 06:57 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote arpangel:



But all the core audio skills are exactly the same. You still need to understand how mics work and the qualities inherent in the various designs to use them effectively. You still need to understand gain structures. You still need to understand the difference between filters, shelf and bell equalisers, and how to use them to achieve the required results, you still need to understand dynamic processing and the trade-offs inherent in the various parameters. You still need to understand acoustics, and monitoring and ... None of that has changed.






Hi Hugh, I think like me, you had a passion for recording technology at an early age, unlike me, you went into the "engineering" profession, whereas I pursued other things musical (but I'll eave that open to debate !)
But by the time I was in my early teens I knew a lot about the things you talk about above, taught myself, out of pure passion and enthusiasm. I always wonder what people are about if they reach a certain age and don't even know what a shelving EQ is for instance, or the basics of gain structure, and can't solder a lead ! and have to go to college to be taught those things. What are their ultimate motives for wanting to get into the industry ? The best engineers have always been people who have had a passion for a particular music, and have chosen to work in that area because they have a natural feel for it, be it our friend John Willet who seems to make fantastic piano recordings, or people like Flood or Hugh Padgham, or any one of a number of similar people. Engineers have to be happy with being engineers, from an early age, and the successful ones don't see it as a springboard to anything else.

Tony.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
coojuice



Joined: 29/10/07
Posts: 371
Loc: Scotland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Arpangel]
      #652757 - 02/09/08 08:22 PM
I think the main focal point from this debate that will educate all us music industry virgins is the fact that to get a job within any industry you have to learn the skills required somewhere, be it in a workplace or on a particular course. Both of these options will have advantages and disadvantages.

Jobs within the music industry now are harder to come by as mentioned a few times previously so I think the purpose of most(I can't possibly vouch for all) courses are to keep people upto date on the latest methods and equipment used in these various areas today whereas it would be difficult to get the same amount of dedicated time to a learner, say, within a studio environment (not that everyone attending would actually want to work in a studio). Not all the courses focus on one specific area, they introduce you to a number of different areas which i'd say most students have never thought of before they enrol, I know I didn't and I feel I now have more oppertunity of doing something within the industry as my course has shown me that there is much more than just learning how to produce your own tracks!

Maybe I think this way about the courses because I've already done a trade as a Mechanical Engineer and I can always fall back to that, but I started my course because I didn't like my existing job choice. There were other Engineering jobs but unfortunately to really be successful in Mechanical Engineering in this country now you have to have either "Chemical Experience" or be willing to "Work Offshore". The first I don't have and the latter was not an option as I too have recently just "settled down" as mentioned before and my wife is currently at university in her last year of of a primary teaching course, so I wouldn't have had much time to see her if I chose to work offshore (which I wouldn't enjoy anyway). Having a morgage to pay each month kind of limits you to not working for pennies or free too so the reason I chose to learn this way was so that I could do a part time job also. It doesn't bring in much but just enough to keep the sharks at bay!
Come to think of it now, I think I may just be having an early mid life crisis!

To get back on track... The point i'm making here is that maybe i'm a different case to most students studying but this was the most practical solution for me to learn what interests me and i've found it very interesting and helpful. I'm perfectly aware that it's not easy to get a job in the industry but like I said before, this is the same for any industry. I'm having fun whilst learning at the same time so it can't be all that bad! I also have my tuition fees paid for me so although I just manage to get by financially this is not down to the actual course, this is personal choice. Out of curiosity, where does the high prices of these courses come from that have been mentioned? Are they private courses or at college's like the one i'm at? Why is there no funding avaliable to the students?

There is always going to be a need for audio in some form or another so there is always going to be a need for someone to work with it...

--------------------
easily pleased...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7812
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: coojuice]
      #652838 - 03/09/08 08:03 AM
Quote tobacco_slammers:


There is always going to be a need for audio in some form or another so there is always going to be a need for someone to work with it...




Yeah but not 20,000 new ones per year...
Or whatever the figure is.
The biggest problem as I see it is that there are this number of people looking to join a !profession" that has only really existed since the early 20th century & by this point in the 21st century is already drastically on the wane.
By all means go to college to learn about recording etc., but don`t ever think of it as seriously offering much in the way of career options.
Sort of like doing a sociology degree, but with even less relevance to the real world of gainful employment.

Do not misunderstand me.
If I had the time and money to do one of these courses, I probably would.
Actually applied to a local college to do a BTech in MT & was told I was "too old, but we`re not supposed to say that."
Just that I would be going into it looking to further my existing knowledge and experience for my own satisfaction & nothing more than that.

From my standpoint, the value of these courses hinges on that premise.
IF you want to do it because you want to do it, fine.
IF you want to do it in order to get a job, BZTTT! Wrong answer.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #652973 - 03/09/08 04:02 PM
Exactly Ivan.

Tobbacs... the prob is only to do with numbers. You just don't need the numbers of grads a year we get. And you CANNOT learn this trade by attending college. Training , even in the old days, is best served as an apprentice. This isn't a particularly dificult job, but it is one - as Hugh pointed out - that without someone telling you what to do is largely based on trial and error. The music tech colleges are, on the whole , teaching nothing of worth. Zilch.

Even 200 graduates a year would be enough - but he thousands we have upon the thousands already out there makes it a useless proposition for a college led career. Yo analogy of mech engineers makes no sense - we need mechanical engineers. Oodles of them. We already have all the sound based personnel we could ever want for now and until the last one dies !!

So you kids wanting to get a job in music - you're wasting your time. There is no demand for you. It is something you will greatly regret when you hit 30 unless you are one of the lucky few who can earn.

The same criticism is levied at video stuff. However, the issue is less pronounced - why? Because fame academy an X factor and stupid [ ****** ] MTV hip hop cribs (etc) hasn't given every other young person in the western world a desire for "a piece of the action".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Arpangel
active member


Joined: 12/07/03
Posts: 5527
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #653004 - 03/09/08 06:01 PM
If you want to get into recording, buy some mic's, get out there and look for some work, its there, if you look hard enough, and your keen.
I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory

Tony.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
PaulD



Joined: 04/01/03
Posts: 1270
Loc: Bristol UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #653009 - 03/09/08 06:07 PM
Quote narcoman:

The same criticism is levied at video stuff. However, the issue is less pronounced - why? Because fame academy an X factor and stupid [ ****** ] MTV hip hop cribs (etc) hasn't given every other young person in the western world a desire for "a piece of the action".


Hi
Interesting analogy.
There are gazillions of 'Media Studies' graduates who aspire to a researcher job in TV (= producer within 3 months).
But there aren't many competent craft-skills graduates, because although the colleges will dabble in the technologies to give students an overview of production, camerawork or editing no one really professes the end result will be more than a foundation course.

If success = Guy Ritchie, then zilch chance.
But there are (a few) jobs out there for enterprising self-skilled 'offline' Final Cut editors, and (a few) for gofers in the lighting/grips/camera assistant field - though these may well go to people who had parents in the industry (= who you know...).

The trouble is EVERY adolescent teenager aspires to music as a brand-specific 'rite-of-passage' - just as the 'correct' t-shirt or trainers are de rigeur. And every music-obsessed teenager with inadequate performance skills regards 'music-tech' as their salvation.

Education should be about taking individuals beyond this juvenile stage, to some sort of real-world career-progress development - but often fails.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22303
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Arpangel]
      #653050 - 03/09/08 08:18 PM
Quote arpangel:

I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory




Except that if you worked in a factory you'd be able to afford to eat and possibly even to live in house with a roof.

If you try to set yourself up as a recording facility you'll not earn enough to live... and even if you are lucky enough to do that would you really be able to afford the insurance, the repair and replacement costs of equipment, your tax, or contribute towards a pension for your old age? I don't think so.

The truth is that there are now so many people out there fresh out of college with a laptop and some cheap samson mics, that no one is charging a realistic rate. Every one is undercutting everyone else just to get some work. Rates have fallen through the floor and no one wins.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
JamesSimpson



Joined: 24/12/05
Posts: 1081
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653062 - 03/09/08 09:27 PM
A question? Does everybody see it as this will continue over an over with a degrading cycle with mediocre "studios" putting out mediocre "products" that are glossed over with a sheen that plug ins give to cover up the mistakes.

Or will there be a cut off point where everybody realises there is no money in this and its not a quick and easy route to fame and fortune. And the sound quality of records will go up again? Due to a few select individuals with excellent sounding rooms, learned mic technique etc....

Obviously nobody can predict, but some speculation could be fun.....or disheartening.

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Setter
member


Joined: 06/11/02
Posts: 580
Loc: Tesside UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #653070 - 03/09/08 09:52 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote arpangel:

I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory




Except that if you worked in a factory you'd be able to afford to eat and possibly even to live in house with a roof.

Hugh




Arpangel's idea works (just about) as a part time job while the kids are at school. Get the capital from your last redundancy from a 'proper job' and send partner full time out to earn a proper wage. I can't see any other way of making it work.

Of course interpersonal skills are possibly more important than technical genius as there is a need to get the network of teachers, conductors and amateur administrators on side.

J


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #653092 - 03/09/08 11:27 PM
expect an increase in dross, and don't hold your breath waiting for the upswing....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
J-M



Joined: 21/02/05
Posts: 133
Loc: Belfast Rock City
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: stevie j]
      #653103 - 04/09/08 12:21 AM
Quote stevie j:


Of all the music tech student's/grads I know, there's only one that I know of who actually works in pro audio. He posts on this forum.






Blatant "Thats me" post right here I think!

But I took advantage of the modest opportunities offered too me, learned as much as I could, and used the contacts I made during my time as a (gasp) Music Tech Student to gain full time employment with a large pro audio company.

But also worked my ass off for free or even at my expense at every opportunity doing anything I could.

Two or Three people from my class are now working in Junior (but serious) roles within the industry. Must have been a good bunch!

Live industry is a different story to the recording world though, there are more opportunities to start at the bottom.

Quote stevie j:



Amy Winehouse's sax player.




Did he look like Hank Marvin? He was in Mandella Hall a couple of Fridays ago. He was fully on the pull like.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7812
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #653120 - 04/09/08 06:57 AM
Quote narcoman:

Quote JamesSimpson:

I'm not sure this thread needs locking at all, I think a lot of it seems open minded discussion. Its never got nasty or personal. If anything a cut down version could be done with being made sticky.




def not. Everyone's being very nice about it all. No nasties..let's keep it that way !!




At the time I posted the suggestion, we had been "reworking the clay" for quite a while.
Not sure we aren`t still merely doing that.
After all, nobody has come up with anything outside what has already been discussed to death.
Still, it beats reading the Mac forum....

(I`ll get my anorak)

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Arpangel
active member


Joined: 12/07/03
Posts: 5527
Loc: London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #653125 - 04/09/08 07:15 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote arpangel:

I'm not talking about working in some glamorous studio, I'm talking about the bread and butter end, recording school orchestras and talking books, music festivals and weekend concerts etc, it may not be very glamorous, but it's better than working in a factory




Except that if you worked in a factory you'd be able to afford to eat and possibly even to live in house with a roof.

If you try to set yourself up as a recording facility you'll not earn enough to live... and even if you are lucky enough to do that would you really be able to afford the insurance, the repair and replacement costs of equipment, your tax, or contribute towards a pension for your old age? I don't think so.

The truth is that there are now so many people out there fresh out of college with a laptop and some cheap samson mics, that no one is charging a realistic rate. Every one is undercutting everyone else just to get some work. Rates have fallen through the floor and no one wins.

Hugh




Fair point Hugh, maybe live sound engineering is the way to go ? Seeing as record companies cant sell recorded music anymore, the only way to make money will be playing live, and those gigs will still need mixing.

Tony.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9369
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653144 - 04/09/08 08:33 AM
Leaving multimedia and live out of this equation and only concentrating on general recording/mixing/producing I can honestly say, and I know I speak for a number of us, that some of us have our own businesses, write books, write articles for magazines, teach, work as consultants, engineer and produce and we just about make ends meet, and almost all of us have qualifications coming out of our coolos.

This is evident in the number of studios we have had to let go and in the amounts of gear we have offloaded (more to do with cost cutting than the software switch over).

We are, as they say, at the shitty end of the industry. The back room clan if you will.

The nature of the industry both in terms of technological advances and migrations and change of mindset has created a state that is rife for those less scrupulous to make a mint.

No matter how you look at it there are only a handful of institutions and qualifications worth considering and even then a qualification simply means that......err....that you are qualified....it is not a prerequisite to gaining employment in this industry, especially 'this' industry, unlike plumbing, carpentry, economics, medicine, engineering etc..

I cannot think of an industry with a worse ratio of applicants v vacancies.

The only way around this problem is to marry the qualification with something useful like business etc and then to think laterally, i.e. not think of just being an engineer or megastar like Hugh, but to work in other areas of the industry.

I abhor the way these Mickey Mouse outfits fleece money from kids through poor standards and with the promise of employment.

And it is our social and moral obligation to tell you that you need to really think this vocation, and the education attached to it, through with a clear mind.

If you sieve the member base here at Sos and leave only the professionals and the ones that earn a decent living from their vocation then you will see that we are in very low figures and hugely in the minority.

Learn and qualify in something more secure and enjoy this industry as a strong hobby and if it breaks for you then great.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10881
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #653147 - 04/09/08 08:46 AM
Quote Zukan:


I cannot think of an industry with a worse ratio of applicants v vacancies.





I don't know how it compares to our business but marine biology is actually pretty bad. There are plenty of people who like the idea of becoming marine biologists and plenty of degree courses but very few jobs. Unlike music tech, marine biology is considered a serious academic course which won't look bad on your CV if you apply for a job unrelated to your degree.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9369
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #653151 - 04/09/08 08:48 AM
Yeah, I forgot the porn industry too James.

And the course is very hard.



--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
James T Bigglesworth
member


Joined: 05/02/04
Posts: 673
Loc: Mostly South Coast UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #653239 - 04/09/08 12:23 PM
Quote Zukan:

Yeah, I forgot the porn industry too James.

And the course is very hard.






Stiffest audition I ever had...

--------------------
"Over fifteen years without a slogan"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7812
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653249 - 04/09/08 12:51 PM
Not really - viagra changed all that.

My daughter appears to have found an even worse field, though - acting.

That & buggy whip manufacturing would appear to be the nadir these days...


Trouble is, you can`t put a weise, cynical, experienced head on young shoulders. They have to make their own mistakes for themselves, unfortunately.
... and then of course they come on here in PART DEUX whining about how there is no work even for a Highly Qualified Graduate like themselves.

*sigh*

P.S. I used to be one of the ones that made a fairly decent living out of the music industry over a period of 30 odd years.
Wierdly, now I have decided to retire, the phone keeps ringing with offers of paid work, so you youngsters MUST be doing something wrong - surely there must be some of you big enough to fill the "old guard`s" collective shoes?

We don`t ALL bop till we drop....

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Akronist



Joined: 10/07/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Cardiff, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653375 - 04/09/08 03:58 PM
Hi All,

In the past, i've been in a position whereby i wanted to 'devote my life' to music, and after finishing my A-Levels, was looking to start one of these courses. Prior to that, i contacted all the studios in my local area for work experience/placement vacancies, but as has always been the case, they were extremely hard to come by (in this instance, impossible).

In the months leading up to me having to make a decision on what i was doing, i spoke to people who'd been on these courses, and also applied a little bit of common sense regarding potential job opportunities. I didn't take the course.

I'm far from knowledgeable enough on the subject to say with any degree of certainty, but it seems to me that the birth of 'academic' courses for Music Technology have resulted in the inability to follow the 'traditional' path of an engineer, at least on the whole.

I think budding young enigneers nowadays are in a bit of a spot regarding their desire to become professional; due to the growing numbers of graduates from these courses, vacancies in studios will always be quickly snapped up, and by following the University route they are subject to exploitation by the educated swine, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I'm just some guy with...a theory (?) i guess...what path should a (sensible)young & ambitious engineer (not me!) follow in these days and times?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2456
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653392 - 04/09/08 04:31 PM
Electronics or Computer science, or a bit of both with an emphasis on DSP and/or analogue or mixed signal design would be my guess. Possibly try and find somewhere that will let you do this as a Bsc with acoustics or basic physics as an additional set of modules?

Mixing in some business or basic accounting really would not hurt either (boring as it is).

Also get some basic tools and build a whole pile of kits and your own designs, it is good fault finding practise.

If you are going for an engineering (as opposed to wannabe producer) job this would I think give you a far better background then any of the 'music tech' courses would.

Fifteen years ago, I would have said to get thyself to Wood Norton, but that option for a serious audio and RF engineering education has pretty much died with the outsourcing.

Just my take on it.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
Posts: 12507
Loc: Oxfordshire UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Akronist]
      #653397 - 04/09/08 04:43 PM
Quote Akronist:

Hi All .......................




At least you have the advantage of being in Cardiff - the Cardiff Recording Club is very active so you have a chance to learn a lot from experienced people (the Chairman is ex-BBC) and get "hands-on" without really paying for it (other than a membership fee).

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Akronist]
      #653402 - 04/09/08 05:01 PM
Quote Akronist:

I'm far from knowledgeable enough on the subject to say with any degree of certainty, but it seems to me that the birth of 'academic' courses for Music Technology have resulted in the inability to follow the 'traditional' path of an engineer, at least on the whole.




I don't argue with your conclusion, but I don't think the creation of the courses created the lack of jobs (I'll blame them for many things, but not that!).

The problem is the courses came about roughly a decade after the bubble had already burst. We might as well train people to make bows and arrows.

Nothing is going to change the dynamics of the studio business. It's a rare week I don't ask myself why do I carry on (answer - I love it, and can afford to indulge what is basically an expensive hobby).

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
table for two
active member


Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5902
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653413 - 04/09/08 05:24 PM
Moments, in solitude, walking, travelling, early hours, late nights, anytime
flashes of ideas come to our hearts ...
moments when we are somehow feeling selfless ...
these ideas usually are not those that we personally would derive monetary benfeit from,
yet if these ideas were followed through, selflessly, through the "proper" channels, with adequate patronage,
would generate income of its own.


(If anything, along with a lot of personal inner rewards, beats working like a dawg).




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Nathan



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 1899
Loc: lincolnshire government experi...
old gaurd mindstate? = happy birthday mr willett new [Re: table for two]
      #653432 - 04/09/08 06:08 PM
heh, many happy returns, sir...

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
stevie j



Joined: 22/05/07
Posts: 279
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: J-M]
      #653536 - 05/09/08 01:37 AM
Quote J-M:


Quote stevie j:



Amy Winehouse's sax player.




Did he look like Hank Marvin? He was in Mandella Hall a couple of Fridays ago. He was fully on the pull like.




Yeah, he did, but he was in the Black Box with me on the Sunday.
Part of the Big River Blues thing.

--------------------
Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Wizard Moon Chopper



Joined: 28/10/05
Posts: 620
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653569 - 05/09/08 08:22 AM
I think what we have to realise is that this is now the music business. Yes there are commercial musicians and infrastructures sourrounding them, and yes there are people making a decent living from music, no doubt about that. But actually, the music business now is selling cheap audio tech gear, advice and education to people who wan't to make music at home. Just as once upon a time people had a piano and bought sheet music and played to entertain themselves in the evenings.


There's quite a history of musicianship amongst the British middle classes. There are many acomplished musicians in there and many would put a lot of semi-pro's and some pro's to shame for their knowledge and skills, but it's fun, it's thought upon by many as a core discipline required to educate and develop a rounded person and very few of these people ever expect to make a living from music, it's for fun and it's for relaxation and it brings an alternative view of the world and some wisdom and culture and understanding which helps them in their life and chosen career.

I have a skewed view of these courses. I only know one person who did one and he finished and got a job in a post production studio in the west-end and is doing quite well. But, he's totally mad for it. Comes from a family who have supported him financially, he's a brilliant guitarist looks great and is a really nice kid and was running pro-tools in his Dad's studio with a teddy bear in the other hand. And, he was made for and of music. There was never any question. He did the course to get his hands on some nice analogue gear and to have fun and meet people, girls mainly... and his family have history and plenty of contacts. There was never any question that he would have a career in music.

If you do a course and hope to get a job at the end, you're up against people like him.We are on second and third generation rock & roll now, and people have kids, and like carpenters, their kids ofen follow in their footsteps.

Carving out a career in the music industry has never been easy, even when you needed a quarter million singles to get to number one it wasn't easy. Making a living in any field of art is very very difficult.

I truly think that if you have to ask then you probably don't stand much chance. I don't think it's one of those businesses where you sit back and think "Hmmm, shall i be a plumber, or and insurance salesman or a music producer". It's one of those businesses where you have a cyanide capsule between your back teeth because you just have to do it.

But, there is an awful lot of fun to be had and it will make you a more rounded and cultured person and it will make you look at things in other ways and it will help you in your life and chosen career to make music, well, any art in fact.

Just my 2 vulscoodas [Lowest vulcan monetary denomination]

--------------------
Yeah!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Tomás Mulcahy
active member


Joined: 25/04/01
Posts: 2998
Loc: Cork, Ireland.
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653572 - 05/09/08 08:27 AM
Mr. Spock, thanks for a positive insight in an otherwise depressing thread!

I think the problem is that most of these courses are geared towards music, rather than engineering. The title "Music Technology" is attractive, but misleading, because as has been established, that's not where the work is.

There is a decent amount of work available in film, radio and TV- for example, currently in Ireland there's a major shortage of location sound people. It's a constant problem for production companies. It's not glamorous, but it's skilled, pleasant with quite sociable hours. Far better than studio engineering, or live sound reinforcement.

So if the musicians and composers would get sense and do arts/ music degrees, and leave the technology to the engineers, they'd stand a better chance of figuring out how to make a living. IMHO.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Akronist



Joined: 10/07/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Cardiff, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: John Willett]
      #653610 - 05/09/08 10:00 AM
Thanks for this info John- I hate to admit that i wasn't aware of this body, but i'll certainly be checking it out.

I liked what Mr Spok said as well- one thing that never changes is that with enough drive, you can usually achieve your ultimate goal.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
Posts: 602
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653791 - 05/09/08 05:32 PM
well i think i'd rather see the BBC ressurect their apprentice system seeing as we f8cking pay for them!!!

an organisation that size, payed for by taxes, should be training as part of their mandate imo.

or we spend 7 mill on johnny ross & another 100 mill on a further raft of minor tosspot celebs - whatever

perhaps a positive thing would be to start a petition to get the bbc to re-institute apprenticeships?

and not in some up it's arse complicated cost-the-earth way, just do it simple. Assign apprentices to work with BBC personel on a 1-1 basis; accompany them on a daily basis and watch, help and learn as they go.

it doesnt have to cost the earth, 99% of such trainees will be getting benefits anyways, so the govt can just top it up by a tenner or 20 quid a week for fares - thats nothing for a training scheme cost.

anyways better'n moaning about the state of play, and besides, thats the biggest employment sector, broadcast, indie film and radio etc not music recording studios.

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #653798 - 05/09/08 06:35 PM
Quote Dr Whom:

well i think i'd rather see the BBC ressurect their apprentice system seeing as we f8cking pay for them!!!

an organisation that size, payed for by taxes, should be training as part of their mandate imo.

or we spend 7 mill on johnny ross & another 100 mill on a further raft of minor tosspot celebs - whatever

perhaps a positive thing would be to start a petition to get the bbc to re-institute apprenticeships?

and not in some up it's arse complicated cost-the-earth way, just do it simple. Assign apprentices to work with BBC personel on a 1-1 basis; accompany them on a daily basis and watch, help and learn as they go.

it doesnt have to cost the earth, 99% of such trainees will be getting benefits anyways, so the govt can just top it up by a tenner or 20 quid a week for fares - thats nothing for a training scheme cost.

anyways better'n moaning about the state of play, and besides, thats the biggest employment sector, broadcast, indie film and radio etc not music recording studios.




Seconded. . . obviously.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22303
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #653836 - 05/09/08 10:05 PM
Quote Dr Whom:

well i think i'd rather see the BBC ressurect their apprentice system seeing as we f8cking pay for them!!!




Er... it's partly the fact that there isn't enough money in the pot to do all that is required of the BBC that prevents them from delivering the technical training they once provided! But the 'all that's required of them' part is the topic of an entirely different discussion, and not one that is appropriate to hold on this forum. Let's just say that I share your view that the available income is being allocated to areas that I don't place anything like as much importance on...

Quote:

an organisation that size, payed for by taxes, should be training as part of their mandate imo.




You're right, they should... but to be fair, they do. Besides the training they still provide internally, they also have to pay vast sums of that licence money to various external organisations to help fund their industry training provisions too (places like the National Film and Television School, and Skillset, for example).

But the sad fact is that 'the suits' that run the Corporation don't value and have no respect for engineering excellence in general, or the technical crafts involved in radio and TV programme making in particular. The Corporation is shedding experienced and capable Studio Managers and Sound Supervisors as quickly as it can, and is actively 'retraining' production-oriented employees to do much of the technical work instead.

Standards and flexibility are both greatly reduced of course, but they either don't notice or don't care... and it more or less works if you only produce simple formulaic programmes. The big attraction to the accountants and business managers is that it lowers the production and staff costs significantly, and that way they get their nice fat bonuses.

And when it comes to needing more talented and experienced people to deliver the occasional complex programmes that they are called upon to produce, there are currently plenty of well trained ex-employees on the freelance market to buy in for a few days to fill the gaps.

It's a very cost effective solution that looks great in the annual reports and budget spreadsheets, and it will continue to be a cost-effective solution for about another 5-10 years. And then the bottom will fall out of the cocky accountants' little world as the supply of competent freelancers dries up completely. Tainted by experience, me? Surely not

Quote:

perhaps a positive thing would be to start a petition to get the bbc to re-institute apprenticeships?




Go for it. I'll sign it!

Quote:

Assign apprentices to work with BBC personel on a 1-1 basis; accompany them on a daily basis and watch, help and learn as they go.




That wouldn't actually work for a whole variety of reasons, but you are right in so far as it needn't cost the earth to deliver a decent training job given some modest resources and serious committment.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Rousseau
active member


Joined: 17/05/04
Posts: 1133
Loc: down sarf
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653900 - 06/09/08 10:47 AM
Sorry for arriving late to this thread, been on honeymoon these last few days.

As I've said many times here - non specifically for many important reasons - there are music tech degree courses that do not 'train' students to be sound engineers. Likewise, I think those who view the vast subject area of music technology as simply sound engineering are woefully out of date. Perhaps that's one downside to being an autodidact? IMO Hugh hit the nail on the head by saying that the game has to some extent shifted away from soldering and transistors, to the network and IT; Extrapolating this, there has been a fundamental shift from the corporate to the freelance; from the purpose built studio to the project studio; from the master of a single skill set to the versatile all-rounder.

The course I designed and sort of run (I prefer teaching renaissance polyphony and composition tbh) which will for obvious reasons remain nameless, is only a joint degree (one quarter techincal, one quarter business related) and most students take the other half in straight music (thank god) which is traditional (and far better for it).

The course was designed and moulded around what I and others saw were the main challenges facing the 'industry'. ie. Studios are closing down at an alarming rate, so what skills and knowledge might be useful for students wanting to make a living out of music - not classical sound engineering ones that was for sure. So our course is small (about 10 students a year) and essentially equips students to be versatile freelance composers and musicians working with technology. It's not perfect, no course is, but some students have been quite successful in finding their niche so far. As with all uni subjects, there will be those who make the most of the opportunities they are given and others who won't. I also try to expose them to some of the realities of working in the industry and do get some top ppl down each to tell them how it is.

I do of course agree with the sentiment that there are non-university courses out there which may not be ethically or morally upstanding and there should be tighter regulation.

Whilst there may not be many jobs as a sound engineer out there, there are myriad other opportunities in the field of music and technology.

Cheers


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #653904 - 06/09/08 11:05 AM
Quote Rousseau:

Sorry for arriving late to this thread, been on honeymoon these last few days.




Call that an excuse? You should've been checking in here hourly with your new wife/husband/partner of indeterminate gender (delete as applicable) to keep up with all the essential debate and exchange of information.

Congratulations


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Rousseau
active member


Joined: 17/05/04
Posts: 1133
Loc: down sarf
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: ]
      #653908 - 06/09/08 11:19 AM
Quote 0VU:

Quote Rousseau:

Sorry for arriving late to this thread, been on honeymoon these last few days.




Call that an excuse? You should've been checking in here hourly with your new wife/husband/partner of indeterminate gender (delete as applicable) to keep up with all the essential debate and exchange of information.

Congratulations




Ta 0VU. Wife, and she's not protested too much yet. Still, early days yet.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653925 - 06/09/08 12:47 PM
Congrats Rousseau. Get her trained early though... checking the SOS board is essential, business related stuff. Right?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
redleicester
active member


Joined: 24/10/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: England's green and pleasant l...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #653947 - 06/09/08 02:02 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Congrats Rousseau. Get her trained early though... checking the SOS board is essential, business related stuff. Right?




Oh she knows her place, and knows what the industry is like - he's married the enemy: A mezzo!

--------------------
Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #654000 - 06/09/08 05:20 PM
Congratulations Rousseau!

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Syncratic



Joined: 06/12/07
Posts: 331
Loc: Cambs
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654002 - 06/09/08 05:37 PM
Congrats Rousseau and great post, thanks.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
jrbcm



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 959
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654005 - 06/09/08 06:10 PM
Rousseau-

Congrats on your mezzo marriage, but still, it can't hurt to sample and archive her just as a backup like


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #654013 - 06/09/08 06:40 PM
Quote Rousseau:


I prefer teaching renaissance polyphony




Congratulations on your marriage.

I have been meaning to study strict counterpoint for decades, maybe one day I will get round to it. (Incidentally my contemporary counterpoint is pretty good though).

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Rousseau
active member


Joined: 17/05/04
Posts: 1133
Loc: down sarf
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: jrbcm]
      #654120 - 07/09/08 10:08 AM
Quote jrbcm:

Rousseau-

Congrats on your mezzo marriage, but still, it can't hurt to sample and archive her just as a backup like




Don't worry I've sampled her But seriously, she sings, bless her, on a lot of my stuff.

Cheers


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9369
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654135 - 07/09/08 11:14 AM
Congrats Rouss!





--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Tomás Mulcahy
active member


Joined: 25/04/01
Posts: 2998
Loc: Cork, Ireland.
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Syncratic]
      #654276 - 07/09/08 09:25 PM
Quote SyncratiK:

Congrats Rousseau and great post, thanks.



Seconded

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
mrthingy



Joined: 24/08/05
Posts: 84
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654588 - 08/09/08 05:48 PM
I've only skimmed through this thread quickly, usally I'm only a reader of the forums, if I do post it's usally starting a thread with a silly question rather than repling. But as a former student on a music tech(ish) course I feel well qualified to reply to this one!

Quote onesecondglance:

those of us who failed miserably as a creative part of the industry - whether through laziness, or otherwise (was always my achilles heel) - the idea of just being in a studio all day sounds better than working in an office.





Yep, I wanted a job that I didn't dread getting up for. Who wouldn't want to make money off something they love doing? I think may people who take these courses think it will get them that job, when in reality it will only be some help, although as others have said it is stuff that can be learned sitting in a room with a few books.

Quote Jon Con:

You can often then find that throughout the year you speak to peers who find themselves saying "the course isn't what I'd imagine it would be".





I'm not sure who it was who said something about doing a course on midi and finding it a complete waste of time. I did a course on midi and some of it was helpfull. I'm sure there was other people on the course who felt it was a waste, but most of them were the ones who weren't as good at the maths and physics side of things. I didn't particuarly want to do maths but I was more accomplised on that side of things and everybody had to get to the same level. It was a bachelor of science so it was naive to think it would all be making tunes.

Quote Steve Hill:


Some courses also make dubious claims about how much hands-on time you get with the toys, and fail to mention that there are 30 people queuing up for every spare bit of downtime. Some courses are equipped, if that's not too strong a word for it.




I don't think I was ever misguided about the hands on time, but I think this is the difference between the path of eductation vs tea boy/gofer. If I remember rightly I the first year our only time spent in anything that resembled a proper studio was with a lecturer showing us stuff. There was no time to to get in yourself and play with the bells and whistles, because 3rd years students got priority. In the same studio, we recorded people. One person was egineer, one did mic placement, one tape op, the rest would have to watch, but may get a go one of the other roles in a fortnights time (didn't have the time or staff to have a group in there every week). I didn't bother with the in studio project in the third year, but it was basicly "record some stuff" yourself. In another module we used, it was a few years ago now and I can't remeber the name of it, some computer based recording system that I had never heard of before and the only time I've heard of it out side of uni I belive it was during my third when the company that made it was bought out and the new owners discontinued it...And we had a really old version! I could of donated a better equipment that what we used in that module. Having said that, it wasn't all bad, there was a Pro Tools Studio we could use in the third year and a pretty nice logic set up that we got our hands on in the second and third years.


Quote Rousseau:


there are music tech degree courses that do not 'train' students to be sound engineers[...]there has been a fundamental shift from the corporate to the freelance; from the purpose built studio to the project studio; from the master of a single skill set to the versatile all-rounder.




This is why looking back I'm not so bothered about the old kit (still a bit miffed about the lack of time I got to play with it though). The course I did used PCs and MAC, Cubase, Logic Pro Tools and that other piece of crap I still can't remember the name of. It was broad, it was ment to teach you how to work stuff out yourself, instead of becoming a expert with Pro Tools I found methods for working out how to get what I want out of different systems. Which is very handy considering what I'm doing now.

Quote Handlestash:


The industry is so sterile now that the only sexy link in the whole chain seems to be the videos.
The rest of it just seems like an assembly line.




By the end of the course I came to realise that I didn't want to help other people make music, I just wanted to continue making my own. I didn't to run the risk of being a bit sick of music and not getting my own stuff done in the evening. I also found out that there were other who had far more talent, so I didn't want to flog a dead horse, I knew I would still have to go into the industry at the bottom of the pile, but knew that others were far better equipped to work their way up.

Fortunately the course was more of a multimedia tech course (with a heavy leaning towards the music side) and I found something else that I was pretty go at and pick modules accordingly. I'm now working towards being a film editor, I'm not doing it yet, but after doing some free work experience and making a few contacts I now have a job which will [/over optimism] could lead the job that I want to do in a few years. I don't have the expertise that the guys I'm directly working for have, but they seem to have faith that I can do whats required and are happy to teach me things as we go, I even tell them a thing or two every now and then

Students who don't full understand what the course is (I'll admit I was one) and don't accept the challange and less fun stuff is a problem and Unis giving false impressions of courses and the prospects at the end of them are a huge problem, they should be ashamed. I feel that goverment policy has to take a lot of the blame for this. Unis wouldn't need to mislead if they weren't under pressure to get 50% of the population through their door and if they weren't force to behave like a business and make money/break even. But I don't want to get to into that because I worry that I sound like some kind of anarco-socialist.

So, to sum up, a good course is worth taking, but only if you learn while you're doing the course so you can use it as an advantage over the other people scrabbling for the (seemingly) glamorous jobs in media be it music, film, journalism or whatever.

Phew, I'm glad that's over.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/jazzzombies


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 13141
Loc: Oxfordshire
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654615 - 08/09/08 07:19 PM
Not specific to music tech, but there's a good piece in today's Independent on the dumbing down of university degrees in general:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/are-degrees-worth-the-p aper-theyre-printed-on-922410.html

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
PaulD



Joined: 04/01/03
Posts: 1270
Loc: Bristol UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: mrthingy]
      #654624 - 08/09/08 07:40 PM
Quote mrthingy:

I'm now working towards being a film editor... I don't have the expertise that the guys I'm directly working for have...


Hi
No fast-track easy option there, either.
Video editing is like producing music - but you don't get to have any say in the notes played or the instrumentation. or the key even.

You just get to spend weeks and weeks going over tens/hundreds of hours of random fragments of other people's moments....
And are expected to turn it all into a symphony or concerto full of viewer-wowing melody and rhythm - usually in less time than a musician will take to do the overture...

Most people (= nearly everyone) don't have the temperament, and dogged patience, to stick at it as a job, day-in day-out.

Learning the software is the easy bit.
Learning the craft skill-set is a different ball game.

Good luck!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #654660 - 08/09/08 08:56 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Not specific to music tech, but there's a good piece in today's Independent on the dumbing down of university degrees in general:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/are-degrees-worth-the-p aper-theyre-printed-on-922410.html




An excellent article that says it all.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ceejay
member


Joined: 17/04/03
Posts: 132
Loc: somewhere in Oz
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654749 - 09/09/08 07:54 AM
Twenty years ago I hired an 18-year-old who'd done an SAE course 'cos I figured at least he'd know the basics. We pretty much had to teach him TV audio from scratch, then video editing.

Then he left and became apprentice jeweller.

Thirty years ago I hired a 17-year-old kid with no experience in anything much that the employment service said was a no-hoper and wouldn't amount to anything.

He's now an operations manager with a major television network.

It ain't about the education, it's about the person.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
table for two
active member


Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5902
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #655223 - 10/09/08 11:59 AM
Quote Rousseau:

been on honeymoon these last few days.




Nice one R

Easiest way to keep our better half happy ... give her a cane to beat us with


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
redleicester
active member


Joined: 24/10/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: England's green and pleasant l...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: table for two]
      #655231 - 10/09/08 12:24 PM
Quote table for two:

Quote Rousseau:

been on honeymoon these last few days.




Nice one R

Easiest way to keep our better half happy ... give her a cane to beat us with




Jesus, don't do that. She's scary. Not as scary as my wife granted, but the pair of them together.... oh dear god...

--------------------
Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #655303 - 10/09/08 02:50 PM
I think the Guardian hasn't really given us any information we didn't already know. Some of the statistics are confusing and irellevant*, and the example of Katie Price was dreamed up on the spot by a bored clerical assistant.

Some of the comments made below the article, however, are very astute.


* There are now more than twice as many 25 year olds with degrees than there were 18-year-olds with A-levels 40 years ago.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)

Rate this thread

Jump to

Extra Information
0 registered and 42 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  David Etheridge, James Perrett, zenguitar, Martin Walker, Forum Admin, Hugh Robjohns, Zukan, Frank Eleveld, SOS News Editor,  
Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled
Rating:
Thread views: 32650

December 2014
On sale now at main newsagents and bookstores (or buy direct from the
SOS Web Shop)
SOS current Print Magazine: click here for FULL Contents list
Click image for December 2014
DAW Tips from SOS

 

Home | Search | News | Current Issue | Tablet Mag | Articles | Forum | Blog | Subscribe | Shop | Readers Ads

Advertise | Information | Privacy Policy | Support | Login Help

 

Email: Contact SOS

Telephone: +44 (0)1954 789888

Fax: +44 (0)1954 789895

Registered Office: Media House, Trafalgar Way, Bar Hill, Cambridge, CB23 8SQ, United Kingdom.

Sound On Sound Ltd is registered in England and Wales.

Company number: 3015516 VAT number: GB 638 5307 26

         

All contents copyright © SOS Publications Group and/or its licensors, 1985-2014. All rights reserved.
The contents of this article are subject to worldwide copyright protection and reproduction in whole or part, whether mechanical or electronic, is expressly forbidden without the prior written consent of the Publishers. Great care has been taken to ensure accuracy in the preparation of this article but neither Sound On Sound Limited nor the publishers can be held responsible for its contents. The views expressed are those of the contributors and not necessarily those of the publishers.

Web site designed & maintained by PB Associates | SOS | Relative Media