this is prolly OT but what the heck.
I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.

In the course of organising things, it occurred to me that he number of young players who can actually recognise a good groove, let alone create one is dwindling fast.

Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

LOL

Not whilst all the guys currently getting airplay (and whatever other 'play' they can get) are tortured little souls who need another mother

Now all we need is for someone to own up to losing the funk and we might get back on track

Lead the charge



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Take It Easy

Lots of people are getting the groove back. I know a few players who would rather hold down a good groove then play something complicated and flashy. It's part of my philosophy too!

But yeah, there is a shocking lack of groove in certain generations!

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.



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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Yup, watching the average punter trying to dance to the more extreme forms of dubstep and similar genres is like watching the Simpsons electrocuting each other. Breakbeats are one thing, beats destroyed to the point of rhythmic unintelligibility are quite another. You may as well try and dance to a metal workshop in Cairo.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote tomafd:

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metal workshop in Cairo.

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This I like the sound of. More rhythm than dubstep.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote John Willett:

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I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.

---

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I'm All Ears.

I know an AMAZING singer who was fired from her band a couple of months ago for, how did they put it, oh yes,
They asked her to 'tone it down on stage' and she couldn't so they fired her.
I've seen this girl perform umpteen times and she has such a great groove.
The other chaps just stood still.
What kind of music did they play, I hear you ask, that prompted them to such drastic measures?
FUNK METAL! Al la Rage!
And they wanted her to stand still!!!
Wan**rs.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

You've seen the footage of Bill Withers on The old grey whistel test playing Ain't no Sunshine?
His drummer man...
Grooooooovvvvvvvveeeeeeeyyyyyyy.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

In case you hadn't...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdIqbv7SPo

Reckon the bass player's just about ready for bed I agree about the absence of a groove in these bright young things; been trying to get a soul/funk/rare groove outfit going for a long time round here.

Coming from the home town of JTQ you'd have thought I'd have some luck, but no joy as yet.

Sorry - had to tag this on. Creamy clav!

Bill Withers - use me

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g3hBYTkI-sE

Can we turn this into a groove appreciation thread, brothers and sisters?

great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap. america's soul engine is closed for business, and we're all missing it. look at the success of the dap kings (btw, they recorded a fake noir-soul lp under the title 'revenge of mr. mopoji' soundtrack - killer rhythm section). i've said for years now that rap was the evil spawn of crack cocaine and cheap drum machines (sort of like a very hip dr.who villain) and among other things it's meant a whole generation of black musicians haven't learnt to play drums, bass, horns, etc, or to sing for that matter. one interesting phenomenon of the last ten years: a number of older generation black soul musicians (solomon burke, sharon jones, betty levette, ) are being discovered or rediscovered by the listening public because there are practically no younger ones and the older folks can finally get some oxygen. the comment about bill wither's drummer was spot on: listen to the backing tracks on his cuts, they were as tight as (insert crude sexual metaphor here) and there wasn't an ounce of wasted playing.

i could go on but i think i've said enough =:-O

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.

Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???

Quote IvanSC:

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Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

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Lessons from the man himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdz88MBWomo

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Quote Ben:

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I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.

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Yes but I am talking specifically about music aimed at your arse.
the vast majority of music I hear nowadays hs the same feel as a marching band.
I posted a song file in the our songs part of the forum. GO listen & even if you HATE the musical style, tell me it didnt get you wiggling in your orthopedic chair.

OH, boy. 22 listens already and not ONE comment.

Too sad.

Even if you hate it, say so.
This is not about being great musicians it is about a collective conciousness.
Damn that sounds so pretentious. Sorry.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

I think that most musicians don't get to play enough as a unit these days.

House residencies are pretty much a thing of the past and there isn't a circuit, not that I can see anyway. Not in the sense that there used to be.

Constant playing (to an audience) teaches the importance of feel and space. It teaches that amazing, almost telepathic sense of knowing what the other people are about to do which lets you leave space or fill up space left for you. This can happen without constant playing but I imagine it's a lot less likely and not with mere mortals like myself.

I was lucky enough to get a 'groove' of sorts with one bunch and although we were never anywhere near to making it I'll never forget that chemistry that took us two years of playing at least twice a week to get. Musicians who get to play more would have more chance to reach this level sooner, I imagine. It's an amazing feeling and we were nowhere near good enough to get it all the time but when we did, it was the most amazing high. This is what I think I hear in music that to me has a great groove - this is the sense of musicians playing off one another.

This isn't a rant of 'the old days are better' (although it probably sounds like it). No, it's a rant of playing more is better - although that is harder to do these days, now that music is less of an event, more a ubiquity in all our lives.

That's my take, anyway.

The only thing people are interested in now is being managers, everything else is unappealing.

I saw Bootsie Collins live - wow, its like seeing the energy that controls the universe. I can't describe it in words so won't try. So I'm white, into new wave, electronica and classical music but Bootsie Collins can cut through everything. Bootsie Collins takes over where quantum physics stops.

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No longer a forum member.

28 listens & the only comment I have so far came from a chum I occasionally jam with - sent it to him as anexample of what we COULD be doing & he just replied that his jaw was on the floor. Not his thing at all but "what a feel"

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote dubbmann:

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great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.

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Partly agree with that. Old school is good, it was designed for dancing. Check out this :

Ultramagnetic MCs

It also is where the prodigy got their title from.

Don't forget early MCs like Lovebug Starski.

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No longer a forum member.

*sigh*

I rest my case.

Loop city.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Groovy players are becoming a bit scarcer, I think it's true. A quick check with new players is if they can play on, ahead or behind of the beat, to order. Still in time of course, just pushing it about, as you do. Don't seem to find that so much at the moment. It's no criticism of ability, I think it's a lack of opportunity. I still remember, gratefully, the people who showed me about this, and how it messed with my head at the time! It was a good lesson though
It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.

Used to have some midi drum files that were played onto a midi kit by the late great Larry Landin.
Mentioned on here before how it opened my eyes as to how a truly great player can mess with the pocket but consistently, which is of course part of the key.

The other thing is using your ears and eyes more than your mouth.

Still not sure about this "kids don`t get to play out any more" bit.

I can remember rehearsing till my fingers bled for weeks before that ONE gig you managed to get - usually twenty or thirty minutes as opening band for the local heroes of the time.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

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Bloody Kraftwerk!

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Oh... Kraftwerk have their own 'groove' albeit a 'mechanised' one but it's a groove nonetheless. They're not trying to be funky or groovy in the strict sense of the word - they WANT that 'man machine' mechanisation.

Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

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Bloody Atari 1040s!

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You may have a point there....

Sequencer quantisation switched on by default that will correct the cack-handedness of many a bedroom muso the world over has probably (arguably definitely) led to a decrease in real, honest to goodness playing skills. I mean, back in the day, you just played/practiced/recorded the part over and over and over again until you nailed it - now, even the sloppiest performance comes out sounding in time (and any duff notes can be micro-edited out). And this doesn't just apply to MIDI sequencing - audio events can be quantised and corrected and sanitised and even vocals can be brought into time and into tune with all the tools available to us today.

It's no wonder, then, that when (or these days, IF) such people venture out to play with others in a live ensemble situation, no-one can hack it.

I am not setting myself up here as a paragon of virtue by the way. I used to be able to play fairly proficiently but it is s-o-o-o-o-o much easier and quicker to let my MPC take care of the timing (I draw the line at micro-editing bum notes out though - quicker and easier to just do it again than dick around with all that). As a result, my playing has suffered and I'd probably (almost certainly) fail Ivan's standards of 'groovability' ... but I might have passed 20 years ago!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

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Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???

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it's done by machines , cause they don't make mistakes

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"A warning , with love and peace"

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.

But it still comes down to people knowing how to make it all breathe & live.

So - any of you listened to the file I posted last night care to make a comment?
Song was recorded in Louisiana using local (very talented admittedly) talent & is about par for the course in t3erms of feel.

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville at the same time as me and came back to the UK a bit before me said she was not interested in getting a band together to gig her material as she couldn`t find anyone that could play ensemble well enough.
*sigh*

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Commander:

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It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Herewego:

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It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.

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From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris

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Putting the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Sorry I am not very good at posting links - Zukan kindly just explained how so here is just one example of A groove.
Not the only one out there folks.
Don`t focus on whether or not you like the song, just listen to the players & how they work together.

http://www.deezer.com/track/blue-cajun-moon-T1730896

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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Quote Herewego:

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It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.

---

From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris

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Yeah - heard one or two tasty ones on Mike Hardins show.
and you`ll always have Dave Mattacks.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

groove is great great, Bootsy Collins, funkadelic, motown etc ...but when it gets into the hands of erm certain 'engish' musos we get level 42, ABC, AWB and that dreadful scottish duo who's name escapes me. Please lets not return to those dark days!

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Quote dubbmann:

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i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.

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I disagree with you in so many ways.

I think there's a difference between rehersal and playing for an audience when it comes to getting a groove. Sort of like gambling for real money or for matchsticks.
I'm sure there are plenty of passionate musicians rehearsing every day but I don't see the venues where they play that often - many of the R&B artists we think of as having great groove worked on a loop through southern US cities in a constant touring schedule - that seems to be reserved for Bob Dylan and others of his generation these days. Maybe I just don't go out enough these days but I think there are several clubs for DJs, a couple of jazz clubs and a comedy club but no 'rock and roll' clubs in our area.

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Good point. I'm not that brave, however.

This is a great post.

I remember going on a guitar course in GIT in London and doing the riddum guitar course. Before that I was a widdling little twat. Who couldnt get in a band. Then I got the groove. Oh yeah baby my balls finally dropped at 23 years old.

I am not saying a course is the answer, everyone finds their mojo in different ways, some people never find it...

I have more fun grooving one note for an hour than I have ever had playing super fast modal gaylord no soul widdles. Or static by the book riffs.

Static riffs and Widdling is like having sex on your own, doing a fat funky riddum is like being in a jacuzzi with a female beach volleyball team. Bubbles and booty all the way.

Much better for the audiance much better for getting members of the opposite sex. A beutiful woman appreciates a man with a strong grooved pounding sense of riddum.

Oh yeah baby

Forgive me for being honest everyone....

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www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico

Quote Richie Royale:

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Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

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I think I just did

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www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico

May I draw the gentlemen's attention to this clip posted earlier in the thread.
Observe the drummer.
That, my boys, is groove. Mmmmm...

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Edited by Handlestash (01/10/08 11:17 AM)

Quote Handlestash:

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May I draw the gentlemen's attention to this clip posted earlier in the thread.
Observe the drummer.
That, my boys, is groove. Mmmmm...

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I'm on a work PC, so no YouTube for me.

Is the drummer Pretty Purdie?

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

re the Bill Withers drummer...

you could drive a car through the gap between the '2' and when he hits that snare. Anticipation, beautiful.