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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #663010 - 02/10/08 09:35 AM
Quote onesecondglance:

Quote IvanSC:

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.




yes, but then you are positively contributing to the lives of others by keeping such an entertaining thread going (keep telling yourself that, it's as good an excuse as any other)...




I always feel guilty for contributing to, or indeed starting, threads like this (friday threads as I think of them) because I'm not a gear head so I rarely contribute to the more 'serious' threads.

Now, back to business. For some groovey Metal you can't beat Rage. Their renegades covers record has a very sexy groove (despite Rick Rubin's brick wall mastering)

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663057 - 02/10/08 11:42 AM
only found unbutton my oops sorry LORD of the flies and open up my grave.

Flies left me cold.

Grave is remarkable in that there are far fewer producerly holes/gating, plus you can actually hear what everyone is going.

Once it gets past the "aren`t we clever" bit at the beginning, it certainly trucks along just fine.
But again the guys have obviously taken time to get it right.
I`m left cold by the music but salute the recording and the playing.
Are they Yanks or Germans?
Suppose they could be dutch.......... Nah.

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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663079 - 02/10/08 12:13 PM
Quote Ian Stewart:

Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)




ha!.. actually my brother in law cant dance for toffee, and he ain't Caucasian

he did fight Lloyd Hunnigan once tho so it's not that he doesnt have good footwork, he just doesnt 'do dancing'



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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663083 - 02/10/08 12:19 PM
Quote IvanSC:

Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.






Ha ha Ivan. Love reading your posts but you definitely are very disparaging. Sometimes, a loose timing is groovy. And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .

If Premier is no good, then how come he's platinum?

Keep it up mate

ken

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britney
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663085 - 02/10/08 12:24 PM
Quote IvanSC:

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.



Quantise is my enemy, but I wouldn't alter the tempo in a dance track. Feel goes round and round. It's far easier to move the individual hits than [ ****** ] with the tempo. One thing that is always overlooked in this debate is that those groovy old guys were all trying there god damnedest to play like machines would if only they had machines that could do that back then. But all in the pocket, of course. The more solid the tempo stays, when playing live, the easier it is for all the players to sit in their individual pocket. Which is the basis for a good groove. And which pocket moves up and down on the bar, the 2 bar phrase and also the structure. I lost count of the drummers who love to sit in front of my laid back groove but speed up when I get up on the beat for my bass fills.

The bloke blaming it all on hip hop, I can only assume he struck his pose way back and never listened to modern American black music ever since. So muck R&B and hip hop nowadays is played live for producers who are not afraid to use all the technology at their disposal. Including looping and sampling. Those are probably the only current pop genres where chops are still a valued tool. Check the Neptunes for one end of that equation and the Roots for the other. With Dr Dre in the commercial middle.

If I had to blame a genre, I'd blame punk rock for devaluing chops in the first place. And indie rock for keeping the originality over skills attitude alive thru all these years. No wonder people turn to hard quantised psy trance or electo house when the alternative is some aimless twirling to the earnest offerings of some shoe-gazing op-shop types.

Or is that a bit harsh? My keyboard gets away on me sometimes.

Quote:

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville



Speaking of pockets. Good country music can be as funky as anything James Brown has done, in a white boy kind of way. Plus the lyrics tend to be a lot more grown up. Too bad it's commercial face has been overrun by all those crossover pop artists.

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Yago
Nice bloke


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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663097 - 02/10/08 12:37 PM
I think I know what you are getting at Ivan , but I am not too familiar with the "youth" type bands , and tend to look back in time for my groovy stuff EG. Cameo , Cymande , Funkadelic , Yargo (not me , the Manchester band!)

I have heard some nice stuff from Air that is more laid back and lets some groove go (I am not a fan of band so only vaguely know a tune or two)
Air


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hollowsun



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: britney]
      #663109 - 02/10/08 01:04 PM
Oh sweet Lord... something is VERY wrong with the time/space continuum here ....

Because I actually agree with almost everything Britney says - that has GOT to be a first!!!

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee ... and are happy to admit that. Sure - they can build collages from loops and I've seen some 'wiki-wik' a turntable with some degree of skill (even though it all sounds the bloody same to me) but they couldn't play or establish a groove themselves - they have to 'borrow' them.

And country music can be WELL groovy and can be rockier than foot to the floor metal!!! A much-derided genre (and MUCH bigger a genre than hip-hop and other dance genres collectively by a substantially large factor).

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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9334
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #663146 - 02/10/08 01:57 PM
Quote hollowsun:


And country music can be WELL groovy and can be rockier than foot to the floor metal!!! A much-derided genre (and MUCH bigger a genre than hip-hop and other dance genres collectively by a substantially large factor).




Yeah, but they wear cheesecloth shirts and having a dude with a long beard, mega belly and dungarees moonwalking to a shaker just doesn't really look cool to me.

Groove is all about hair.

You gotta have the right hair to be funky.

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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Zukan]
      #663152 - 02/10/08 02:01 PM
Quote Zukan:



You gotta have the right hair to be funky.




Would that be the afro sported by Bill Wither's drummer, then ?

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663161 - 02/10/08 02:23 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote IvanSC:

Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.






Ha ha Ivan. Love reading your posts but you definitely are very disparaging. Sometimes, a loose timing is groovy. And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .

If Premier is no good, then how come he's platinum?

Keep it up mate

ken



beccause folks don`t know any better, as usual.
There`s loose timing and then there is loose timing.

I am not disparaging, I`m telling it like it is.

I dont want to show my ass, but I have played with some good people over the years and there are still plenty of good people around.
Old and young.
Problem is as I said people don`t know enough to know that.
If you seriously think that DJ Premier has some hot stuff, you are truly deluded, son.
I have heard people who can make an Mpc and decks, etc., scream but he ain`t one of them.

Go back and listen to your posted example and follow what is happening.
There are places wher it IS together for quite lengthy spells (4 or 5 bars) which to me just says the man can`t hack it, not that he did it deliberately.

Now I am not talking about half a beat out here, just the little piece that turns a piece of music into a three legged race.
Or if you like, a milking stool.

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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663163 - 02/10/08 02:26 PM
This thread is stuffed full of gratitious generalisations, ranging from 'White people can't dance' to 'Hip hop musicians can't play' to 'Punk/Techno/R&B killed musicianship'. While there may be a grain of truth in any number of generalisations, it's a little bit akin to a stopped clock being right twice a day, or firing a shotgun at a barn door and claiming to have hit something!

For some reason though, I'm just as happy not to get into a detailed debate about most of these points. Two that I can't pass on though, are these:

Quote Tui:

I guess what's happening to pop/rock today is what happened to jazz/big band in the 1970s: The initial excitement and anarchic energy has been used up.




You what? My favourite jazz is from the 70s and for my money has more excitement and anarchic energy than anything before or since. I speak of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, and especially, Billy Cobham's solo stuff.

Quote Ken Long:

Quote Tui:

From now on, we'll probably see several generations of imitators, imitating imitators.





The UK music scene since the dance music of the 1930s through to the Beatles and Stones and through to Punk and Hip Hop has been founded on imitation.

Carbon copies, albeit with slight twists, of what's been going on in the US.

There are very few exceptions IMO.ken




What about prog rock and metal throughout the 70s and early 80s? Pink Floyd was a carbon copy of whom? Iron Maiden and Motorhead, carbon copies? Slayer are on record as being inspired by Maiden, and the number of metal bands (including American bands) namechecking Black Sabbath must be countless.

As for the Beatles, I'd love to hear the band the Beatles were 'carbon-copying' when they did the White Album or Revolver!




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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663164 - 02/10/08 02:28 PM
Quote Ken Long:

And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .


ken




That's not quite it. One of the few downsides of getting older (apart from slowly falling apart...) is that you find out that you've heard one hell of a lot of music, over the years, so when anything 'new' pops up you can usually spot where it comes from, and usually- it's just not as good as the original, or, when it's a blend of different genres, it doesn't work as well as either of it's progenitors. There seems to be some kind of inevitable watering-down process going on. Very, very rarely, something will turn up that is a definite improvement on previous work or really does produce something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting.

However much you may knock them, a very good example of that was the Beatles' first few albums, which married a whole lot of different influences into a genuinely new form- but it didn't sound like a forced marriage, it sounded totally natural. Lennon did some very interesting things with chords and melodies that no-one had done before, and which a lot of folk have been copying ever since.

The big difference between previous generations and today is that if musicians did want to try new things, they had no choice but to actually play their instruments, to do it- and so often, the new interesting stuff happened because they couldn't actually do what they were trying to do, and ended up doing something different, and just as interesting- and original- instead.

Now the game seems to be simply pillaging old recordings and then bending those recordings until you think you've got something you think is 'new'- (and, so often, announcing a new 'genre' (yet another new genre))- when all you've got is a very slight variation on an existing form... which probably isn't that interesting, in itself.

While there are, occasionally, individuals working in new electronic genres whose productions are immediately recognizable from the first bar- they do seem to be very few. Maybe that's not the point, and maybe the point is to produce yet another faceless dance tune (whatever the genre) that just sounds like any other faceless dance tune.

... but i can't see how that's 'thinking outside the box'. More like keeping the box firmly on your head, to me. And it's that that pisses off us oldsters. We're desperate to hear something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting, from you youngsters- but most of the time, we don't hear it. We just hear where you nicked it from.

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Zukan]
      #663166 - 02/10/08 02:32 PM
Quote Zukan:



Yeah, but they wear cheesecloth shirts and having a dude with a long beard, mega belly and dungarees moonwalking to a shaker just doesn't really look cool to me.

Groove is all about hair.

You gotta have the right hair to be funky.




Have you been at my photo album again, Zuke?
Actually the UK country folks are hilarious. All boots `n buckles and Nudie shirts.
BIt like going to Dallas in 1972.
Oh and replica cap guns!

Worst part? That`s the audience!

A friend of mine just posted a comment from shall we say a less than committed (or comittable) fan.
There`s only two sorts of people who wear stetsons.
Cowboys and A$$holes.
He also said he and his partner had decided to quit wearing theirs even on country gigs.
Incidentally, he and I are sort of thinking about starting an old folks boogie band up to show you young muppets how to do it properly.
Hah!
My money will, as always, be right where my mouth is.

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4559
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663167 - 02/10/08 02:34 PM
Quote IvanSC:


I am not disparaging, I`m telling it like it is.




No you are giving your opinion. There really is no right or wrong here.

Quote:

I dont want to show my ass, but I have played with some good people over the years and there are still plenty of good people around.




Please don't show your ass. Yes, I'm aware of your experience. I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

Quote:

If you seriously think that DJ Premier has some hot stuff, you are truly deluded, son.
I have heard people who can make an Mpc and decks, etc., scream but he ain`t one of them.




If you don't think so, that's fine. But be aware that he's one of the most in-demand remixers in the US. He must be doing somehting right? Oh and I'm not deluded. Just open-minded .

Quote:

Go back and listen to your posted example and follow what is happening.
There are places wher it IS together for quite lengthy spells (4 or 5 bars) which to me just says the man can`t hack it, not that he did it deliberately.




I can't say I agree there either. He is doing it deliberately and I think that those instances where it sounds "off" are intended. Listen to anything else by him and you will see what I mean.

Quote:

Now I am not talking about half a beat out here, just the little piece that turns a piece of music into a three legged race.
Or if you like, a milking stool.




Now that's funny!



ken

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Tui
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663169 - 02/10/08 02:35 PM
If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663170 - 02/10/08 02:38 PM
Quote tomafd:

Quote Ken Long:

And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .


ken




That's not quite it. One of the few downsides of getting older (apart from slowly falling apart...) is that you find out that you've heard one hell of a lot of music, over the years, so when anything 'new' pops up you can usually spot where it comes from, and usually- it's just not as good as the original, or, when it's a blend of different genres, it doesn't work as well as either of it's progenitors. There seems to be some kind of inevitable watering-down process going on. Very, very rarely, something will turn up that is a definite improvement on previous work or really does produce something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting.

However much you may knock them, a very good example of that was the Beatles' first few albums, which married a whole lot of different influences into a genuinely new form- but it didn't sound like a forced marriage, it sounded totally natural. Lennon did some very interesting things with chords and melodies that no-one had done before, and which a lot of folk have been copying ever since.

The big difference between previous generations and today is that if musicians did want to try new things, they had no choice but to actually play their instruments, to do it- and so often, the new interesting stuff happened because they couldn't actually do what they were trying to do, and ended up doing something different, and just as interesting- and original- instead.

Now the game seems to be simply pillaging old recordings and then bending those recordings until you think you've got something you think is 'new'- (and, so often, announcing a new 'genre' (yet another new genre))- when all you've got is a very slight variation on an existing form... which probably isn't that interesting, in itself.

While there are, occasionally, individuals working in new electronic genres whose productions are immediately recognizable from the first bar- they do seem to be very few. Maybe that's not the point, and maybe the point is to produce yet another faceless dance tune (whatever the genre) that just sounds like any other faceless dance tune.

... but i can't see how that's 'thinking outside the box'. More like keeping the box firmly on your head, to me. And it's that that pisses off us oldsters. We're desperate to hear something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting, from you youngsters- but most of the time, we don't hear it. We just hear where you nicked it from.

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !




Wot `ee said.

and Pink Floyd were after the acid bands from san francisco.

mind you it did all sort of come together acroos the whole world at that time as I remember.
But it WAS the sixties so who knows how reliable my memory is.
The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)
And remember Dave G was doing Beach Boys covers a scant year or so before he joined Pink Floyd.
Rog Barratt`s band was doing drifters and coasters covers!
I was playing blues and r `n b at the time.
In fact I was playing it in about 1963 come to think of it.
Must have been - the band was called Johhny "R `n B" Phillips and the Hi Fi`s.
Cheeeeesy!

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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Tui]
      #663171 - 02/10/08 02:41 PM
Quote Tui:

If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.




Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?

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http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663174 - 02/10/08 02:46 PM
Quote Ken Long:

I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

ken





You can if you actually have any new tricks to teach.


The day I stop learning something new in music or getting surprised by it, is the day I`ll quit playing.

As for doing it deliberately, I guess that makes my case. He`s DELIBERATELY messing up a perfectly acceptable groove?
And of course once again what he is really doing is shuffling recordings of musicians playing instruments then cutting & pasting.

It is perfectly possible to make great music with samples etc but not if you just slap a bunch of loops which contain your basic rhythmic feel together and call it art or music or whatever.

For me the human element is what makes or breaks a groove and so long as you are relying on a machine for any element of the timing the only way you are ever going to make a piece groove is if it is un-mechanised by human players with good feel.

FWIW I use drum samples a lot. But when I`m live they get played on an electronic kit by my drummer and when I am working in the studio they get tapped or programmed in by me to fit the groove I am creating at the time.
And IF I had room I`d have a real drummer every time.

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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663175 - 02/10/08 02:49 PM
Quote IvanSC:



The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)





"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.

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The Elf
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Joined: 14/08/01
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Loc: Sheffield, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663179 - 02/10/08 02:59 PM
Quote tomafd:

Quote IvanSC:



The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)





"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.



The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...

What's wrong with prog anyway?!

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Tui
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Joined: 02/09/02
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Loc: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #663180 - 02/10/08 03:10 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote Tui:

If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.




Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?




Are you asking for my opinion? Here goes:

Belle & Sebastian - Competent performers, yet strangely derivative music, reminiscent of the 60s. The groove isn't helped by drums that are too prominent in the mix (I've only listened to two tracks, mind).

Queens of the Stone Age - Not my cup of tea, but it's obvious where they've got their ideas from... Listen to Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, UFO, The Sweet (oh yes! ).

Contemporary rock is just so boring, I'm sorry to say. I'm used to hearing great tunes AND great performances - at the same time. Check out, for starters, Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant. Now, that's music.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: The Elf]
      #663183 - 02/10/08 03:15 PM
Quote The Elf:

The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...





There are tracks from that and other Yes albums available as karaoke tracks in Japan!!

Quote The Elf:

What's wrong with prog anyway?!



Quite. Like everything, there's good and bad prog but I'll tell you what...

They may be a bunch of ageing old duffers (and arguably not prog anymore) but Genesis are as tight as a gnat's chuffer live and can kick the arses of almost any of the bright young things on the circuit today!!

I've heard some records by youthful bands on the wireless that really appeal to me ... and then I've had the misfortune to see them play it live. What a load of shambolic kack! Lots of posturing and attitude on-stage but seemingly no ability to kick it!

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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663184 - 02/10/08 03:18 PM
Quote tomafd:

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !




the first rule of groove club is... oh wait, tomafd just posted the first five

you know what would be more impressive than creating a groove by following those instructions? creating a groove IGNORING all those instructions... now that would be skill.

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4559
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #663186 - 02/10/08 03:19 PM
Quote Richard Graham:



What about prog rock and metal throughout the 70s and early 80s? Pink Floyd was a carbon copy of whom? Iron Maiden and Motorhead, carbon copies? Slayer are on record as being inspired by Maiden, and the number of metal bands (including American bands) namechecking Black Sabbath must be countless.

As for the Beatles, I'd love to hear the band the Beatles were 'carbon-copying' when they did the White Album or Revolver!







OK. Carbon copy was a strong expression. I'll give you that. But The Beatles early stuff was based on Black American rnr (including a shedload of covers). The later stuff influenced by psychoactive drugs no doubt but there was a hella of competition between what was being achieved in the studio in the UK and in LA with the Beach Boys for instance - one trying to outdo the other and I wouldn't attribute their 'psychedelic sound' to anything they picked up growing up in Liverpool. Rather an ammalgamation of their experiences abroad.

I don't know where Maiden fits in so I'll grant you that too . But Sabbath, again, based on blues and rock - albeit with very heavy tones and different arrangements from the traditional sets. And Pink Floyd??? Heavily influenced by Gospel and Rhythm and Blues from America (Gilmour says so himself FFS). You can't tell me otherwise. With the exception of their experimental material like Ummagumma and what. I wouldn't call that sound British though as simialr music was also being developped stateside at the same time.

So no, not even on the ropes mate

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4559
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663190 - 02/10/08 03:28 PM
Quote:


1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.





Nice dogma. It illustrates my point nicely.

Setting rules is restrictive. How can that be thinking 'out of the box'? You've set the boundaries/limitations from the get go.

This is keeping the box on your head.

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4559
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663197 - 02/10/08 03:37 PM
Quote IvanSC:

Quote Ken Long:

I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

ken





You can if you actually have any new tricks to teach.


The day I stop learning something new in music or getting surprised by it, is the day I`ll quit playing.

As for doing it deliberately, I guess that makes my case. He`s DELIBERATELY messing up a perfectly acceptable groove?
And of course once again what he is really doing is shuffling recordings of musicians playing instruments then cutting & pasting.

It is perfectly possible to make great music with samples etc but not if you just slap a bunch of loops which contain your basic rhythmic feel together and call it art or music or whatever.

For me the human element is what makes or breaks a groove and so long as you are relying on a machine for any element of the timing the only way you are ever going to make a piece groove is if it is un-mechanised by human players with good feel.

FWIW I use drum samples a lot. But when I`m live they get played on an electronic kit by my drummer and when I am working in the studio they get tapped or programmed in by me to fit the groove I am creating at the time.
And IF I had room I`d have a real drummer every time.




Well, I mentioned Premier because I find the music particulary interesting within Hip Hop as a genre. But I don't know enough about it. Yes, he's re-arranging other people's music but he pays them to do so. Warhol did pretty much the same thing and yet he's considered a genius.

Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" was completely sequenced from tape splices. What you hear on the disc doesn't adhere to the arrangement recorded to tape. A lot of Zappa stuff is the same. Kool and the Gang's "Celebration" uses the same clap splice throughout. Does that make them any less groovy?

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Tui]
      #663199 - 02/10/08 03:42 PM
Quote Tui:

Quote Handlestash:

Quote Tui:

If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.




Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?




Are you asking for my opinion? Here goes:

Belle & Sebastian - Competent performers, yet strangely derivative music, reminiscent of the 60s. The groove isn't helped by drums that are too prominent in the mix (I've only listened to two tracks, mind).

Queens of the Stone Age - Not my cup of tea, but it's obvious where they've got their ideas from... Listen to Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, UFO, The Sweet (oh yes! ).

Contemporary rock is just so boring, I'm sorry to say. I'm used to hearing great tunes AND great performances - at the same time. Check out, for starters, Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant. Now, that's music.




Dude you're rambling OT. They may not be your cup of tea in the studio or who they're influenced by but by christ can Queens boogy live. B&S too.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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Tui
active member


Joined: 02/09/02
Posts: 3305
Loc: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663207 - 02/10/08 04:12 PM
Want groove? Get it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr3TynkVYh4


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: uk
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663216 - 02/10/08 04:40 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote:


1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.





Nice dogma. It illustrates my point nicely.

Setting rules is restrictive. How can that be thinking 'out of the box'? You've set the boundaries/limitations from the get go.

This is keeping the box on your head.

ken





It's certainly out of the box as far as most modern electronic genres go, and that's the point I was trying to make. Too many of them seem fixated with certain processes and certain sounds that 'define the genre' and generally, the whole scene is fixated with the whole idea of genre in the first place. If it's good music, it's good music, that's the only genre that matters.

BTW, it's strange, but true, that forcing yourself to work within some limitations can often act as a stimulant to creativity- and maybe 'thinking out of the box' - in these days of limitless processing possibilities- might mean imposing some limits on what you allow yourself to do, and what gear you allow yourself to use. Try it- you may find yourself pleasantly surprised. Simplicity can pay real dividends.

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663244 - 02/10/08 06:41 PM
How about this :

Little Feat

How did that band get that feel?

(I still like old skool hip-hop though).

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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turtles



Joined: 22/10/04
Posts: 244
Loc: Notts, mostly.
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663313 - 03/10/08 12:33 AM
+1 for the 'if you haven't felt it, you haven't got it' definition.

Getting the groove is the reason musicians tolerate long rehearsals, half-empty venues, awful managers. It's an addiction. Suddenly, often without warning, it all comes together. Everyone 'clicks'. Fromt that point on, no-one in the band gives a monkey's if the audience stays or leaves- the music is all-consuming, and when it's over, you want it again. And again.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: The Elf]
      #663345 - 03/10/08 07:05 AM
Quote The Elf:

Quote tomafd:

Quote IvanSC:



The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)





"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.



The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...

What's wrong with prog anyway?!




Damn!
Another nasal passage/coffee interface moment!

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663349 - 03/10/08 07:26 AM
Quote Ken Long:


Well, I mentioned Premier because I find the music particulary interesting within Hip Hop as a genre. But I don't know enough about it. Yes, he's re-arranging other people's music but he pays them to do so. Warhol did pretty much the same thing and yet he's considered a genius.

Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" was completely sequenced from tape splices.
A lot of Zappa stuff is the same. Kool and the Gang's "Celebration" uses the same clap splice throughout. Does that make them any less groovy?

ken




There`s editing and there`s what Premier is doing.
It`s one thing to move sections of a song around & quite another to chop up a part into samples and then plonk them down in a row for a rhythm track.
Tui - yep!

Little Feat were like thousands of other bands. Tight, well-rehearsed and to the point where one of them went to sneeze and the rest already had a tissue out.

I have been telling students to learn their instrument to the point where it doesn`t get in the way of what is in their head coming out the other end of the instrument.
Same applies to bands.
The greatest joy for me in music is playing with people where I both know where they are going but at the same time know they are capable of surprising me - in a good way.

Miles Davis lost his way with Bitches Brew as far as I am concerned. It stopped coming from his heart.
Agreed he is good enough he can cut and paste and still keep it swinging, but I didn`t say that it wasn`t possible to make a piece groove with cut `n paste. just that not many people seem to be doing so.
Zappa`s sheer musicality and choice of sidemen meant he never really did anything that didn`t groove one way or another, regardless of how it was created.
And hand claps????
You must be joking.
My whole point is that provided they are done right, samples won`t get in the way of a great groove.
Provided they are done right.

Oh and Warhol is also considered to be a charlatan by many others.
Certainly not a lot of artistic fire in his approach as I am sure he would have been the first to admit.

I suppose a lot of what it comes down to for me is that so little of the current crop of music has any sense that someone`s deepest emotions were engaged in the making.

And yes, "gitting it" is deeply addictive.
(stands up)
"I`m Ivan and I`ve been a groove addict since 1954"

Genesis:
Paul carrack wrote a song about it.
I live by the groove.
Listen to anything Paul has done right back to the early days with Ace.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3069
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663362 - 03/10/08 08:15 AM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote Richard Graham:



What about prog rock and metal throughout the 70s and early 80s? Pink Floyd was a carbon copy of whom? Iron Maiden and Motorhead, carbon copies? Slayer are on record as being inspired by Maiden, and the number of metal bands (including American bands) namechecking Black Sabbath must be countless.

As for the Beatles, I'd love to hear the band the Beatles were 'carbon-copying' when they did the White Album or Revolver!







OK. Carbon copy was a strong expression. I'll give you that. But The Beatles early stuff was based on Black American rnr (including a shedload of covers). The later stuff influenced by psychoactive drugs no doubt but there was a hella of competition between what was being achieved in the studio in the UK and in LA with the Beach Boys for instance - one trying to outdo the other and I wouldn't attribute their 'psychedelic sound' to anything they picked up growing up in Liverpool. Rather an ammalgamation of their experiences abroad.

I don't know where Maiden fits in so I'll grant you that too . But Sabbath, again, based on blues and rock - albeit with very heavy tones and different arrangements from the traditional sets. And Pink Floyd??? Heavily influenced by Gospel and Rhythm and Blues from America (Gilmour says so himself FFS). You can't tell me otherwise. With the exception of their experimental material like Ummagumma and what. I wouldn't call that sound British though as simialr music was also being developped stateside at the same time.

So no, not even on the ropes mate

ken




I've no argument with the fact that British bands were influenced by American music, no sir, only an idiot would dispute that! The point is, the cross-Atlantic influence was not in any sense as 'one-way' as your original post insisted... the Beatles' early records *were* (of course) inspired by black American music (any fule kno that!) but they later (with George Martin's help) turned into anything but, incorporating everything from music-hall to baroque and experimental electronics, in turn inspiring Beach Boys (for instance) to work harder in the studio.

It's equally common knowledge that Black Sabbath had their roots in the blues. That's not the point. The point is, not what they took from America, but that what they gave back, influenced countless American bands.

As for Pink Floyd, they have been quoted as saying they were aiming at what they *imagined* psychedelic music from the West Coast of the US would sound like, but they hadn't heard much of it. They missed by a mile, and invented their own sound, incorporating all kinds of influences from children's songs (Scarecrow, Gnome) English pastoral (If...) to classical (Atom Heart Mother), along with the rock, blues and electronica. How influential this has been on the US, I wouldn't like to say. I don't know if the Flaming Lips have ever listened to a Pink Floyd record, for instance.

What I'm saying is, we all have influences, but this doesn't mean that none of us have anything new to bring to the table, and that goes for the Americans too. For instance, just because Slayer were inspired by Maiden, does not mean that they are copycats, or gave nothing back to 'British' metal.

If history backed up your contention, Meshuggah would sound exactly like Robert Johnson (who of course, wasn't influenced by *anyone* but the Devil himself). And we know that isn't so.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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britney
active member


Joined: 17/10/02
Posts: 3065
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #663398 - 03/10/08 09:22 AM
Quote hollowsun:

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee




Then I guess you know neither Pharrell Williams nor Marcus Miller.

--------------------
"If you are getting that much difference with limiters you are probably overdoing it with them." Full Clip Audio


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DoeZer
new member


Joined: 23/04/02
Posts: 909
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663414 - 03/10/08 09:52 AM
Quote IvanSC:



For me the human element is what makes or breaks a groove and so long as you are relying on a machine for any element of the timing the only way you are ever going to make a piece groove is if it is un-mechanised by human players with good feel.

FWIW I use drum samples a lot. But when I`m live they get played on an electronic kit by my drummer and when I am working in the studio they get tapped or programmed in by me to fit the groove I am creating at the time.
And IF I had room I`d have a real drummer every time.




sorry. have to disagree here. But i know im in the minority... to illustrate my point, i was on holiday in france a couple of months ago. they had a band in the place each night. EASILY the best band of the entire duration was a three piece. a guitarist, bassist, clarinet player. and for rhythms what were they using?? an ALESIS SR16 drum machine. they just kicked in loops every now and again and played along!! and these were stock kind of loops. quite basic. some of them with percussion added, latin style, and no fills, in other words the same basic loops or maybe two or three per song that kind of thing...
my wife couldnt go that nite and could hear the music from the campsite.. she agreed and said it sounded absolutely fantastic..

what these three guuys had was groove. they played all sorts, but with a rootsy, cajun kind of feel. but they used these mechanical drumloops to fantastic effect.. and the result sounded anything but mechanised.. they went down a STORM!!

So what would the purists say about this. three talendted guys backed by a bunch of mechanised, and quite basic, loops??! surely not!

people who can really play and feel groove can take those basic, un compromising beats and transform them quite easily. the main thing when youre playing with a drummer is that he can lock onto a beat and keep it... all the other stuff, playing before, after, slight nuances, they are just a bonus right?? i always think well programmed backing beats are WAY better than a bad drummer, although not quote as good as a good one...
ok. enough - (sorry dont feel like working today!)...
D

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/planetdoezer


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: britney]
      #663463 - 03/10/08 11:25 AM
Quote britney:

Quote hollowsun:

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee




Then I guess you know neither Pharrell Williams nor Marcus Miller.




Did you actually mean "I guess you DON`T know?"

Will have to google Pharrell Williams out of curiousity.
Marcus Miller - would that be the same Marcus Miller, session bassist-for-hire that I know of?
or is there a hiphop producer of the same name?

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: DoeZer]
      #663469 - 03/10/08 11:30 AM
DoeZer you didnt read all of this (somewhat excessive) thread - we did actually briefly discuss this sort of groove transcending the drum machines aspect of it all.
My thrust is more against the stuff where it is all subservient to the loop and the loop (or whatever) is ineptly used.
DJ Premier for instance seemed in that clip to be just triggering samples, badly.
Not a lot else was going on that could be said to be furthering that particular "groove" or lack thereof.
Plus of course the ultimate yuk of a band that is all live musicians and still can`t grove.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7799
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663881 - 04/10/08 03:22 PM
just checked the sound file I posted to accompany this rant and of 150 people who have looked at the thread only three have commented on the track.

In contrast over 1200 people have viewed this thread and there are a ton of posts in it.

Several of you have asked for a definition of what a good groove is. The track Blue Cajun Moon that I posted is a shining example of a really funky groove that isn`t funk or r`nb.

Go give it a listen and tell us if you agree or not.
Remeber we are looking for the groove, not whether or not you like the style.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Hol



Joined: 05/02/06
Posts: 293
Loc: England
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: jellyjim]
      #663957 - 04/10/08 08:17 PM
Quote jellyjim:

i played my friend's little daughter some random bleepy electronica (which i quite like) and asked her what it sounded like

she's quite a bright and quirky child, she replied

"it sounds like the internet"

i found that quite an unsettling comment somehow!




Lips pursed in wry amusement at that one.

In fact I could take that one step further - "THIS IS WHAT THE INTERNET SOUNDS LIKE!"

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol


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