Yeah I veered off with the generalisations - but there is something in it - to do with all kinds of complex cultural influences. However - its not some kind of genetic thing - and you are right to point out the exceptions DoeZer.

Now however this seams to be a general thing about just being 'together' - what is that special thing that makes bands and musicians 'glue'? This holds for orchestras as well - listen to the terror of the Berlin Phil. tearing through Beethovens Fifth with Karajan for example.

I suppose nobody old enough (thats me) to remember the portent of doom the drum MACHINE seamed at its introduction is surprised by all of this. However i still side with others here that say its still out there. Maybe I just dont want to be a grumpy you know - but i still hear things - even on radio 1 - that makes me think people are still listening, learning and loving it.

I maintain Sir, that people can indeed still groove!

--------------------

Quote kenwyn:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

We`re sorta sliding sideways here again.
My original comment came as a result (at least partly) of not finding anyone here in East Anglia that actually WENT OUT rather than playing in their bedrooms that could hold down a good groove.

etc

---

I do 3 gigs a week playing funky Latin in one band and in another acoustic live lounge and I live in Cambridgeshire..... Which I think is in east Anglia.

I must admit I spent 2 years looking for a decent vocalist and I was considering any kinda music. Now I know 6. bit like buses. They are out there mate but you gotta look under hard to move rocks.

And now everything is about Kareoke talent shows, so groove and musicianship is hidden behind walls of manufactured shite. I am not bitter, just very frustrated

---

Ha ha ha you soppy tart! (still giggling)
Yep I think Peterborough just about counts as East Anglia - hope so, as I live about 12 miles from Peterboro!

Very pleased to hear you are having fun playing in Grunty Land.
I did a rehearsal cum sorting out what material we`re going to play session with my geriatric mates yesterday and it was a lot of fun.
Really looking forward to rehearsing, which shows how far down MY morale has sunk in the last year or so!

Of course now we have to decide if we are going to do British R `n B or Watts/Stax soul & if we will get away with slipping some New Orleans fonk in dere too.
Plus at the moment we are going to try & do it with guitar bass & drums.
I haven`t sung and played bass at the same time in 17 years..... don`t even own a bass amp any more.

"Buddy can you spare me a bass cab?"
(grin)

And for the benefit of all the earnest young men on the OTHER thread, yes we will be playing one or two of my songs as well.
But probably NOT telling the punters they are (yawn) originals.

Great line from a song I heard in the states:
"We don`t `low original material, `less it`s bin done before"

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

I live in Peterborough but am not from Peanut butter. Here for cheap mortgage. Place is a cultural void. Like I said 3 gigs a week, how many in Peterborough 0.

Thats not to say people in Peanut are not talented its just that no one wants to stump up any money for decent music. I could easily play at loads of middle class hippy venues for zero cash, but lifes to short.

Place desparately in need of a UNI.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico

Quote IvanSC:

---

And for the benefit of all the earnest young men on the OTHER thread, yes we will be playing one or two of my songs as well.
But probably NOT telling the punters they are (yawn) originals.

---

...But however will they tell the difference?

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

Quote Ken Long:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

And for the benefit of all the earnest young men on the OTHER thread, yes we will be playing one or two of my songs as well.
But probably NOT telling the punters they are (yawn) originals.

---

...But however will they tell the difference?

---

Remember the song I posted a link to on here? The "I`ve got the take me down to London in your Morris Thousand Traveller" blues?
That is one of mine.
Yeah I know - there`s a thousand out there all written on the same theme....
Not one of my finest moments, but certainly funny if you had been at the gig.


--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

So in closing, the answer is NO!

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

(grin) You`re getting as bored by this thread as I am?

Was wondering idly this morning if it would make it to 2k reads...

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

---

(grin) You`re getting as bored by this thread as I am?

Was wondering idly this morning if it would make it to 2k reads...

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.

---

Hear hear. (Or is it here here?)

Either way, I concur. Perhaps I'll come visit some time and we can have our jam and eat it too.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

STOP THE PRESSES!

OLD PERSON IN 'THINGS NOT AS GOOD AS THEY USED TO BE' SHOCKER!

see, and there was you thinking the thread was dying, Ivan...

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote IvanSC:

---

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.

---

Or could the problem be that those who think they get it really don't and others who don't seem to get it to those who think they get it really do get it?

Who's kidding who here?

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65doEvpMSXM&feature=related

sos forumee

Quote IvanSC:

---

Mr. Bluegrass disco fan, if you like to dance to disco AND bluegrass, I`m not surprised you found Eddie Raven butt-numbing.
Do you hand-crochet those sequinned hats at the same time as you skin your possums up there?
(wherever "UP" is)

---

lovely. and no - but my girlfriend has embroidered my suits for me while seated on a sheepskin she tanned herself...

While trying to avoid a shameless plug of my band - I would like to forward what I consider quite a tight live performance, and a definite mix of bluegrass and disco to be found by going HERE and clicking on the left hand video ("here comes the storm"...)

I get your idea - and I'm a big little feat fan - but I challenge the idea that what is groovy is anything more than entirely subjective. But that point has been made plenty already in this thread.

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Was listening to some of the music my son chooses (modern Rush clones I tell him). All competently played at a live recording. Some of it was great, some just a few bars later felt a bit flat. Reading this thread tells me why.. the band were getting into the groove and then just marginally falling out of it again.

Obvious with hindsight but I'd never have spotted the reason without this thread.

J

Quote Ken Long:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.

---

Or could the problem be that those who think they get it really don't and others who don't seem to get it to those who think they get it really do get it?

Who's kidding who here?



ken

---

Well you had to ask, Ken.....

This little corner of the thread is getting more and more like a Kursall Flyers lyric every day.



But.


For me, I can see the difference on the dance floor.
When the band is really cooking, the punters react even if they don`t all understand fully what they are reacting to.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote molecular:

---

I get your idea - and I'm a big little feat fan - but I challenge the idea that what is groovy is anything more than entirely subjective. But that point has been made plenty already in this thread.

---

Groovy = dorky `60`s expression

groove = whole `nother thing.

It`s only subjective in that anyone who has never actually been in that particular zone really and truly doesn`t know what being part of a great big beautiful groove is about.
Mind you, being from the Land of Bagpipes, you can be forgiven for your confusion.
Now about this challenge you were planning on making....
So far I haven`t seen anything on here that refutes my point.
And nothing that makes me feel any more comfortable that the future of music in the UK is in safe hands.

Mind you I had a first rehearsal for a recording thingy tomight and we did not groove at all.
Not even a tiny bit.
Mind you I haven`t played bass in about 4 years or more & I met the drummer for the first time tonight.
Hopefully that un-grooveliness will change pretty sharpish.

P.S.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Handlestash:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

(grin) You`re getting as bored by this thread as I am?

Was wondering idly this morning if it would make it to 2k reads...

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.

---

Hear hear. (Or is it here here?)

Either way, I concur. Perhaps I'll come visit some time and we can have our jam and eat it too.

---

My family is from Sligo one generation back (1930`s) - never been to the Emerald Isle but you never know.

Mind you the other half is from Australia - nobody`s perfect.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Timing.

Is everything.

My band grooves like a motherf**ker.

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Setter:

---

Was listening to some of the music my son chooses (modern Rush clones I tell him).

---

Who are the modern Rush clones? I'm curious, 'cos although Rush only grooved infrequently after Peart joined, they did groove a bit on some earlier tunes (Best I Can, I Think I'm Going Bald, Passage to Bangkok solo).

Peart is definately a 'technique, flair and imagination' drummer. Lee is similar with his bass. It's much harder to groove with very busy playing: I think Rutsey had more groove the Peart. Bonham and Jones' thing was to keep the beats less cluttered and allow more groove.

Music doesn't always have to groove to be good though. Sometimes its enough to rock or swing.

Cobham does all three.

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

The groove died with jazz rock. I don't mean the wonderful groups like the Brothers Johnson. I mean the smug virtuosic session players and the session player manques who thought technique meant you were better than those with less technique. So the raw excitement of the punk and new wave groups, who could create excitement with a good, although limited technique, were looked down upon. Instead we got a new elite class of pathetic people who practised technique rather than music.
The drummers would get imported obscure records because Steve Gadd was on them and then study the hi-hat pattern obsessively until they could copy it as well as a sampler could. On the next gig, whether it was a bubble-gum pop record or a big function, suddenly all these standards would have this hi-hat pattern thrown in everywhere, from the Girl From Ipanema, to She Loves You via the Victory Waltz. Then the bass player would start slapping in the most unsuitable songs because he had a Stanley Clark complex. All the time dressed in a smug grin that said 'we are too good for all this'.

Jazz rock killed popular music, not punk, not electro, not sampling. These ugly posers thought girls would fall at their feet. When the girls saw them as objectionable dorks who had the conversational skills of a recorded voice on a telephone queuing system, they, of course, assumed the girls were as thick as the people they played to. Then this embarrassing British imitation of how they thought American musicians talked followed :

'Hey dude, we've got to make to L.A., we would be appreciated there.'

Then the bands would insult the audience on stage, loud enough to know you were being insulted, but quiet enough so you could not quiet make the insult out. They would crack humourless in-jokes on stage that the other band members laughed at in an obviously forced way, partly because the jokes were a shibboleth, partly out of embarrassment. This was esoteric music with no tolerance for anyone who was not a jazz rock bigot. The musicians made it quite clear they had contempt for the audience so the audience went somewhere else.

As for the music itself it was the most leaden form of organised sound it was possible to hear at that time. The themes were yet another permutation of the pentatonic scale and the only chords they seemed to use were suspended 4ths. If any new ideas were introduced it then ceased to be jazz rock. It was the nadir of popular music and what followed can be traced back to that style, a bunch of unmusical, technically proficient, ugly, smug, pentatonic scale robots.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.

Quote Ian Stewart:

---

The groove died with jazz rock. I don't mean the wonderful groups like the Brothers Johnson. I mean the smug virtuosic session players and the session player manques who thought technique meant you were better than those with less technique. So the raw excitement of the punk and new wave groups, who could create excitement with a good, although limited technique, were looked down upon. Instead we got a new elite class of pathetic people who practised technique rather than music.
The drummers would get imported obscure records because Steve Gadd was on them and then study the hi-hat pattern obsessively until they could copy it as well as a sampler could. On the next gig, whether it was a bubble-gum pop record or a big function, suddenly all these standards would have this hi-hat pattern thrown in everywhere, from the Girl From Ipanema, to She Loves You via the Victory Waltz. Then the bass player would start slapping in the most unsuitable songs because he had a Stanley Clark complex. All the time dressed in a smug grin that said 'we are too good for all this'.

Jazz rock killed popular music, not punk, not electro, not sampling. These ugly posers thought girls would fall at their feet. When the girls saw them as objectionable dorks who had the conversational skills of a recorded voice on a telephone queuing system, they, of course, assumed the girls were as thick as the people they played to. Then this embarrassing British imitation of how they thought American musicians talked followed :

'Hey dude, we've got to make to L.A., we would be appreciated there.'

Then the bands would insult the audience on stage, loud enough to know you were being insulted, but quiet enough so you could not quiet make the insult out. They would crack humourless in-jokes on stage that the other band members laughed at in an obviously forced way, partly because the jokes were a shibboleth, partly out of embarrassment. This was esoteric music with no tolerance for anyone who was not a jazz rock bigot. The musicians made it quite clear they had contempt for the audience so the audience went somewhere else.

As for the music itself it was the most leaden form of organised sound it was possible to hear at that time. The themes were yet another permutation of the pentatonic scale and the only chords they seemed to use were suspended 4ths. If any new ideas were introduced it then ceased to be jazz rock. It was the nadir of popular music and what followed can be traced back to that style, a bunch of unmusical, technically proficient, ugly, smug, pentatonic scale robots.

---

I do not recognise this horrible picture you are painting, I must have been too young! Were you in one of these jazz-rock bands, or just subjected to them?

P.S. I like the Brothers Johnson too, their greatest hits is a staple listen in my car, but I also 'dig' Mahavishnu Orchestra! Earth Wind and Fire *and* Rush, Meshuggah and Gram Parsons, Television and The Damned. And where do the Stranglers fit in all this?

Must we take sides, find scapegoats? (makes for entertaining posts though!)

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Food for thought.

I have to say I am inclined to agree at least in part about the damage a large section of fusion music did.
But as with all things there is good and bad in everything.


OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!!


Apart from Opera.

Trained voice, as in seals honking motor horns trained, in my opinion, but then X zillion opera fans can`t be ALL wrong so I guess it is me.
ALso that is nothing to do with groove or lack thereof.
Schubert had his own way of imposing a subtle yet insistent groove into his work, whether the players sought it or not.
Much as I love JSB it is hard to find a groove in his mathematical purity.

BACK ON TOPIC

Stranglers: "Peaches" has a killer groove.
Lurching, angular grooooove.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Mummy, Mummy Mummy - what is a Funkadelic

--------------------
Matt
www.krcollective.org

Quote IvanSC:

---

OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!!


Apart from Opera.

Trained voice, as in seals honking motor horns trained, in my opinion, but then X zillion opera fans can`t be ALL wrong so I guess it is me.

---

Gross generalization and unwarranted purely personal expression ALERT...


all together now..... OH YES THEY ARE !

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote table for two:

---

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65doEvpMSXM&feature=related

sos forumee

---

Nice one , I am currently watching all his vids

Played by someone who reads it that way, JSB has some great cross-rhythms which really lay a groove down. There was a Finnish violinist playing with the Britten string orchestra who had a concert at West Road last year (name escapes me, sadly) who is one of the rare people who does that. Significantly, he's as much involved with trad folk as classical, so he's used to finding the groove in a tune that'll get people dancing.

It's painful to hear baroque/classical music played with piano-roll precision, when you can feel a great beat underneath it struggling to get out. Once upon a time, people danced to this stuff; now they just sit down and appreciate the technique.

The Brothers Johnson... Wow. I thought I'm the only one still alive who might remember them. Yeah, amazing stuff.

Groove also has a lot to do with choosing the right tempo for the song. Often, fast tunes can't and won't groove so well, because there isn't much breathing space left for developing a good groove. It's rather significant that most popular music in the 60s-80s wasn't so fast, compared with what is considered normal today.

Remember Wuthering Heights? That was ridiculously slow, by today's standards, and had an odd time signature to boot. Yet, it topped the UK charts for a month. Nice groove, I'd say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Ej4WDybCQ&feature=related

I'm always amazed when even some of the finest musicians on the planet don't seem to realise that choosing the correct tempo is as important for the success of their music, as is playing the correct notes. Here's a typical example, there must be thousands more. The first clip is the rather funky studio LP version, and the second is a somewhat hysterical life version. Talk about murdering the groove in cold blood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm6pfpV-tt0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM9EhbDhckk&feature=related

Quote Richard Graham:

---

Music doesn't always have to groove to be good though. Sometimes its enough to rock or swing.

Cobham does all three.

---

Yup, BC is also an incredible jazz drummer. There is a youtube clip somewhere with Cobham and Herbie Hancock. Absolutely STEAMING.

Quote Ian Stewart:

---

The groove died with jazz rock. I don't mean the wonderful groups like the Brothers Johnson. I mean the smug virtuosic session players and the session player manques who thought technique meant you were better than those with less technique. So the raw excitement of the punk and new wave groups, who could create excitement with a good, although limited technique, were looked down upon. Instead we got a new elite class of pathetic people who practised technique rather than music.
The drummers would get imported obscure records because Steve Gadd was on them and then study the hi-hat pattern obsessively until they could copy it as well as a sampler could. On the next gig, whether it was a bubble-gum pop record or a big function, suddenly all these standards would have this hi-hat pattern thrown in everywhere, from the Girl From Ipanema, to She Loves You via the Victory Waltz. Then the bass player would start slapping in the most unsuitable songs because he had a Stanley Clark complex. All the time dressed in a smug grin that said 'we are too good for all this'.

Jazz rock killed popular music, not punk, not electro, not sampling. These ugly posers thought girls would fall at their feet. When the girls saw them as objectionable dorks who had the conversational skills of a recorded voice on a telephone queuing system, they, of course, assumed the girls were as thick as the people they played to. Then this embarrassing British imitation of how they thought American musicians talked followed :

'Hey dude, we've got to make to L.A., we would be appreciated there.'

Then the bands would insult the audience on stage, loud enough to know you were being insulted, but quiet enough so you could not quiet make the insult out. They would crack humourless in-jokes on stage that the other band members laughed at in an obviously forced way, partly because the jokes were a shibboleth, partly out of embarrassment. This was esoteric music with no tolerance for anyone who was not a jazz rock bigot. The musicians made it quite clear they had contempt for the audience so the audience went somewhere else.

As for the music itself it was the most leaden form of organised sound it was possible to hear at that time. The themes were yet another permutation of the pentatonic scale and the only chords they seemed to use were suspended 4ths. If any new ideas were introduced it then ceased to be jazz rock. It was the nadir of popular music and what followed can be traced back to that style, a bunch of unmusical, technically proficient, ugly, smug, pentatonic scale robots.

---

heh

these might cheer u up mate

www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/ecm.m3u

www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/wldy.m3u

www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/wl.m3u

unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.

Quote Dr Whom:

---

unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho

---

What the hell is that?!

Ugh, IMVHO the only time this sort of music ever came close to having a groove is 'Contusion' from Songs in the key of life.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote matt keen:

---

Mummy, Mummy Mummy - what is a Funkadelic

---

Hush yo ` mouf an` eat dem grits, chile!

Ivan
The artist formerly known as DeFreaque

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote grab:

---

Played by someone who reads it that way, JSB has some great cross-rhythms which really lay a groove down. There was a Finnish violinist playing with the Britten string orchestra who had a concert at West Road last year (name escapes me, sadly) who is one of the rare people who does that. Significantly, he's as much involved with trad folk as classical, so he's used to finding the groove in a tune that'll get people dancing.

It's painful to hear baroque/classical music played with piano-roll precision, when you can feel a great beat underneath it struggling to get out. Once upon a time, people danced to this stuff; now they just sit down and appreciate the technique.

---

Just reminded me of why I hate the currently fashionable abortion that passes for interpretation of Joplin, et al.
Supposed to be music for whores and their Johns????!!!

And yeah JSB if he is interpreted that way, I agree 100% jsut that the Schuberts of this world are more insidious.
Hard NOT to get one on with stuff like the largo bits in Die Forelle.
Squirmy, fishy feel. Pun intended.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

People don't Grove anymore because these days to conside yourself a musician you have to deal with cables, knobs, buttons and gadgets and gizmos.
It's not about just mastering a keyboard, but a little guitar too, a little music production and maybe a little reason 4.

--------------------
Pro Audio & DJ Equipment Reviews

Quote Leon Tech:

---

People don't Grove anymore because these days to conside yourself a musician you have to deal with cables, knobs, buttons and gadgets and gizmos.
It's not about just mastering a keyboard, but a little guitar too, a little music production and maybe a little reason 4.

---

(grin) All of which happens in the privacy of your own shed/garage/bedroom.
You have a point, there.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

---

Quote Leon Tech:

---

People don't Grove anymore because these days to conside yourself a musician you have to deal with cables, knobs, buttons and gadgets and gizmos.
It's not about just mastering a keyboard, but a little guitar too, a little music production and maybe a little reason 4.

---

(grin) All of which happens in the privacy of your own shed/garage/bedroom.
You have a point, there.

---

You lot can speak for yourselves. I'm proud to say that I've grooved mightily with two different bands this week, purely for fun. I may not be a master of any instrument, and one of the guitarists might have referred to me as 'Professor' as I stared deeply into the computer monitor during Tuesday night's session, and I might like twiddling knobs and hooking up microphones, but that doesn't mean the groove has to die.

Moral: get out more, and join a band (or two).

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Tui:

---

Groove also has a lot to do with choosing the right tempo for the song. Often, fast tunes can't and won't groove so well, because there isn't much breathing space left for developing a good groove. It's rather significant that most popular music in the 60s-80s wasn't so fast, compared with what is considered normal today.

---

Totally agree with the importance of getting the tempo bang on for the song! You can easily ruin a song by playing it a few BPM too fast, and conversely, if the tempo is bang on, a song can suddenly gel.

Loved the Johnny Guitar Watson stuff Tui, thanks, will be checking out a CD of his shortly.

--------------------
Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote IvanSC:

---

Quote molecular:

---

I get your idea - and I'm a big little feat fan - but I challenge the idea that what is groovy is anything more than entirely subjective. But that point has been made plenty already in this thread.

---

Groovy = dorky `60`s expression

groove = whole `nother thing.

It`s only subjective in that anyone who has never actually been in that particular zone really and truly doesn`t know what being part of a great big beautiful groove is about.
Mind you, being from the Land of Bagpipes, you can be forgiven for your confusion.

---

Ivan, Ivan, Ivan...

The only dorky 60's thing around here is the random replacing of vowels with apostrophes... Man!

But let's not fight, shall we.

But this comment about my confusion? Are you accusing Highland folk musicians of not understanding how to freak out 'in the zone'? Do you think it's all about Classical bagpiping and dreadful limp-wristed 'craic' in an Irish theme bar? As I asked before - maybe you're looking in the wrong places... Have you ever been to the Highlands? Was it on a 'Lochs and Glens' coach Holiday?

Secondly - all I can do is pity you if your experience of new bands doesn't make you feel like they have a groove. Aside from my opinions of my own band, we've played with a few other new bands around up here, and they all knew exactly where the zone was. dBass, Fanattica, Black Diamond Express, Miyagi, Claes Cem

I choose the bands we tour with carefully, but I'm happy that when we play with these guys they are going to pull it out of the hat.

Subjectivity: I'll ignore the slight implication that I've never been in the groove, but I thought this was a thread about up and coming musicians, not an "I can groove and you can't" bragging opportunity. Personaly I see people clearly zoning out to stuff I just don't get - and I can't share your opinions about the new musicians around you. So, whatever, either it's subjective or its a postcode lottery... Either way, the "Land of Bagpipes" is clearly in better shape than wherever you are.

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Quote Handlestash:

---

Quote Dr Whom:

---

unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho

---

What the hell is that?!

Ugh, IMVHO the only time this sort of music ever came close to having a groove is 'Contusion' from Songs in the key of life.

---

um, ok

it's bob james, jean luc ponty and wilbert longmire

i know i know!.. you're right of course! they are all completely talentless shite and cant play or groove for toffee


sorry to offend your 'music critic' sensibilities.

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.