this is prolly OT but what the heck.
I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.

In the course of organising things, it occurred to me that he number of young players who can actually recognise a good groove, let alone create one is dwindling fast.

Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

LOL

Not whilst all the guys currently getting airplay (and whatever other 'play' they can get) are tortured little souls who need another mother

Now all we need is for someone to own up to losing the funk and we might get back on track

Lead the charge



--------------------
Take It Easy

Lots of people are getting the groove back. I know a few players who would rather hold down a good groove then play something complicated and flashy. It's part of my philosophy too!

But yeah, there is a shocking lack of groove in certain generations!

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.



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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Yup, watching the average punter trying to dance to the more extreme forms of dubstep and similar genres is like watching the Simpsons electrocuting each other. Breakbeats are one thing, beats destroyed to the point of rhythmic unintelligibility are quite another. You may as well try and dance to a metal workshop in Cairo.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote tomafd:

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metal workshop in Cairo.

---

This I like the sound of. More rhythm than dubstep.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote John Willett:

---

I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.

---

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

I know an AMAZING singer who was fired from her band a couple of months ago for, how did they put it, oh yes,
They asked her to 'tone it down on stage' and she couldn't so they fired her.
I've seen this girl perform umpteen times and she has such a great groove.
The other chaps just stood still.
What kind of music did they play, I hear you ask, that prompted them to such drastic measures?
FUNK METAL! Al la Rage!
And they wanted her to stand still!!!
Wan**rs.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

You've seen the footage of Bill Withers on The old grey whistel test playing Ain't no Sunshine?
His drummer man...
Grooooooovvvvvvvveeeeeeeyyyyyyy.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

In case you hadn't...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdIqbv7SPo

Reckon the bass player's just about ready for bed I agree about the absence of a groove in these bright young things; been trying to get a soul/funk/rare groove outfit going for a long time round here.

Coming from the home town of JTQ you'd have thought I'd have some luck, but no joy as yet.

Sorry - had to tag this on. Creamy clav!

Bill Withers - use me

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g3hBYTkI-sE

Can we turn this into a groove appreciation thread, brothers and sisters?

great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap. america's soul engine is closed for business, and we're all missing it. look at the success of the dap kings (btw, they recorded a fake noir-soul lp under the title 'revenge of mr. mopoji' soundtrack - killer rhythm section). i've said for years now that rap was the evil spawn of crack cocaine and cheap drum machines (sort of like a very hip dr.who villain) and among other things it's meant a whole generation of black musicians haven't learnt to play drums, bass, horns, etc, or to sing for that matter. one interesting phenomenon of the last ten years: a number of older generation black soul musicians (solomon burke, sharon jones, betty levette, ) are being discovered or rediscovered by the listening public because there are practically no younger ones and the older folks can finally get some oxygen. the comment about bill wither's drummer was spot on: listen to the backing tracks on his cuts, they were as tight as (insert crude sexual metaphor here) and there wasn't an ounce of wasted playing.

i could go on but i think i've said enough =:-O

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.

Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???

Quote IvanSC:

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Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

---

Lessons from the man himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdz88MBWomo

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Quote Ben:

---

I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.

---

Yes but I am talking specifically about music aimed at your arse.
the vast majority of music I hear nowadays hs the same feel as a marching band.
I posted a song file in the our songs part of the forum. GO listen & even if you HATE the musical style, tell me it didnt get you wiggling in your orthopedic chair.

OH, boy. 22 listens already and not ONE comment.

Too sad.

Even if you hate it, say so.
This is not about being great musicians it is about a collective conciousness.
Damn that sounds so pretentious. Sorry.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

I think that most musicians don't get to play enough as a unit these days.

House residencies are pretty much a thing of the past and there isn't a circuit, not that I can see anyway. Not in the sense that there used to be.

Constant playing (to an audience) teaches the importance of feel and space. It teaches that amazing, almost telepathic sense of knowing what the other people are about to do which lets you leave space or fill up space left for you. This can happen without constant playing but I imagine it's a lot less likely and not with mere mortals like myself.

I was lucky enough to get a 'groove' of sorts with one bunch and although we were never anywhere near to making it I'll never forget that chemistry that took us two years of playing at least twice a week to get. Musicians who get to play more would have more chance to reach this level sooner, I imagine. It's an amazing feeling and we were nowhere near good enough to get it all the time but when we did, it was the most amazing high. This is what I think I hear in music that to me has a great groove - this is the sense of musicians playing off one another.

This isn't a rant of 'the old days are better' (although it probably sounds like it). No, it's a rant of playing more is better - although that is harder to do these days, now that music is less of an event, more a ubiquity in all our lives.

That's my take, anyway.

The only thing people are interested in now is being managers, everything else is unappealing.

I saw Bootsie Collins live - wow, its like seeing the energy that controls the universe. I can't describe it in words so won't try. So I'm white, into new wave, electronica and classical music but Bootsie Collins can cut through everything. Bootsie Collins takes over where quantum physics stops.

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No longer a forum member.

28 listens & the only comment I have so far came from a chum I occasionally jam with - sent it to him as anexample of what we COULD be doing & he just replied that his jaw was on the floor. Not his thing at all but "what a feel"

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote dubbmann:

---

great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.

---

Partly agree with that. Old school is good, it was designed for dancing. Check out this :

Ultramagnetic MCs

It also is where the prodigy got their title from.

Don't forget early MCs like Lovebug Starski.

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No longer a forum member.

*sigh*

I rest my case.

Loop city.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Groovy players are becoming a bit scarcer, I think it's true. A quick check with new players is if they can play on, ahead or behind of the beat, to order. Still in time of course, just pushing it about, as you do. Don't seem to find that so much at the moment. It's no criticism of ability, I think it's a lack of opportunity. I still remember, gratefully, the people who showed me about this, and how it messed with my head at the time! It was a good lesson though
It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.

Used to have some midi drum files that were played onto a midi kit by the late great Larry Landin.
Mentioned on here before how it opened my eyes as to how a truly great player can mess with the pocket but consistently, which is of course part of the key.

The other thing is using your ears and eyes more than your mouth.

Still not sure about this "kids don`t get to play out any more" bit.

I can remember rehearsing till my fingers bled for weeks before that ONE gig you managed to get - usually twenty or thirty minutes as opening band for the local heroes of the time.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

---

Bloody Kraftwerk!

---

Oh... Kraftwerk have their own 'groove' albeit a 'mechanised' one but it's a groove nonetheless. They're not trying to be funky or groovy in the strict sense of the word - they WANT that 'man machine' mechanisation.

Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

---

Bloody Atari 1040s!

---

You may have a point there....

Sequencer quantisation switched on by default that will correct the cack-handedness of many a bedroom muso the world over has probably (arguably definitely) led to a decrease in real, honest to goodness playing skills. I mean, back in the day, you just played/practiced/recorded the part over and over and over again until you nailed it - now, even the sloppiest performance comes out sounding in time (and any duff notes can be micro-edited out). And this doesn't just apply to MIDI sequencing - audio events can be quantised and corrected and sanitised and even vocals can be brought into time and into tune with all the tools available to us today.

It's no wonder, then, that when (or these days, IF) such people venture out to play with others in a live ensemble situation, no-one can hack it.

I am not setting myself up here as a paragon of virtue by the way. I used to be able to play fairly proficiently but it is s-o-o-o-o-o much easier and quicker to let my MPC take care of the timing (I draw the line at micro-editing bum notes out though - quicker and easier to just do it again than dick around with all that). As a result, my playing has suffered and I'd probably (almost certainly) fail Ivan's standards of 'groovability' ... but I might have passed 20 years ago!!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

---

Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???

---

it's done by machines , cause they don't make mistakes

--------------------
"A warning , with love and peace"

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.

But it still comes down to people knowing how to make it all breathe & live.

So - any of you listened to the file I posted last night care to make a comment?
Song was recorded in Louisiana using local (very talented admittedly) talent & is about par for the course in t3erms of feel.

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville at the same time as me and came back to the UK a bit before me said she was not interested in getting a band together to gig her material as she couldn`t find anyone that could play ensemble well enough.
*sigh*

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Commander:

---

It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...

---

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Herewego:

---

It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.

---

From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Sorry I am not very good at posting links - Zukan kindly just explained how so here is just one example of A groove.
Not the only one out there folks.
Don`t focus on whether or not you like the song, just listen to the players & how they work together.

http://www.deezer.com/track/blue-cajun-moon-T1730896

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

Quote Herewego:

---

It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.

---

From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris

---

Yeah - heard one or two tasty ones on Mike Hardins show.
and you`ll always have Dave Mattacks.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

groove is great great, Bootsy Collins, funkadelic, motown etc ...but when it gets into the hands of erm certain 'engish' musos we get level 42, ABC, AWB and that dreadful scottish duo who's name escapes me. Please lets not return to those dark days!

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Quote dubbmann:

---

i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.

---

I disagree with you in so many ways.

I think there's a difference between rehersal and playing for an audience when it comes to getting a groove. Sort of like gambling for real money or for matchsticks.
I'm sure there are plenty of passionate musicians rehearsing every day but I don't see the venues where they play that often - many of the R&B artists we think of as having great groove worked on a loop through southern US cities in a constant touring schedule - that seems to be reserved for Bob Dylan and others of his generation these days. Maybe I just don't go out enough these days but I think there are several clubs for DJs, a couple of jazz clubs and a comedy club but no 'rock and roll' clubs in our area.

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Good point. I'm not that brave, however.

This is a great post.

I remember going on a guitar course in GIT in London and doing the riddum guitar course. Before that I was a widdling little twat. Who couldnt get in a band. Then I got the groove. Oh yeah baby my balls finally dropped at 23 years old.

I am not saying a course is the answer, everyone finds their mojo in different ways, some people never find it...

I have more fun grooving one note for an hour than I have ever had playing super fast modal gaylord no soul widdles. Or static by the book riffs.

Static riffs and Widdling is like having sex on your own, doing a fat funky riddum is like being in a jacuzzi with a female beach volleyball team. Bubbles and booty all the way.

Much better for the audiance much better for getting members of the opposite sex. A beutiful woman appreciates a man with a strong grooved pounding sense of riddum.

Oh yeah baby

Forgive me for being honest everyone....

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www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico

Quote Richie Royale:

---

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

---

I think I just did

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www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico

May I draw the gentlemen's attention to this clip posted earlier in the thread.
Observe the drummer.
That, my boys, is groove. Mmmmm...

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Edited by Handlestash (01/10/08 11:17 AM)

Quote Handlestash:

---

May I draw the gentlemen's attention to this clip posted earlier in the thread.
Observe the drummer.
That, my boys, is groove. Mmmmm...

---

I'm on a work PC, so no YouTube for me.

Is the drummer Pretty Purdie?

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

re the Bill Withers drummer...

you could drive a car through the gap between the '2' and when he hits that snare. Anticipation, beautiful.

Quote Richie Royale:

---

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

---

If you have to ask, you don`t get it.
Period.
(even bigger grin)

Listen to the couple of things posted on here and then listen to that half-assed loop thing posted by another well-intentioned R`nB Reborn fan.
Now the difference between that & the Bill Withers/Eddie Raven stuff is what groove is about.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote snipsnip:

---

Quote dubbmann:

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i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.

---

I disagree with you in so many ways.

---

Come on then - put your money where your mouth is.
A lot of posts on here either curious about "groove" or agreeing with my original post.
I would love to hear from someone who disagrees and can back it up.

Not that I would attribute the loss of groove in the UK to the deline of Motown.
Always thought Memphis & Philly did it better.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

I guess what's happening to pop/rock today is what happened to jazz/big band in the 1970s: The initial excitement and anarchic energy has been used up. From now on, we'll probably see several generations of imitators, imitating imitators.

Let's face it, the subversive rock/pop music scene of the 60s-80s has been replaced by corporate-controlled karaoke shows and bands that tend to produce inconsequential, acoustic wallpaper. The shelf life of today's top artists is short, very few are capable of writing timeless, classic tunes.

Needless to say, there are still great players and song writers around, but trying to identify them is like looking for needles in haystacks. By and large, though, the zeitgeist has moved on, and widespread machine-worship is reflected in an endless stream of soulless, coarse, and repetitive music.

Quote IvanSC:

---

this is prolly OT but what the heck.
I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.

In the course of organising things, it occurred to me that he number of young players who can actually recognise a good groove, let alone create one is dwindling fast.

Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

---

well ivan mate, if you're in london, and aren't going to play too often and you want serious badd-ass oldskool slap funk bass with kwality basslines... pm me

but your drummer had better be damned good cos half the problem with funk/groove stuff is often caused by drummers who cant keep their kickdrum pattern. They change their kick pattern to match the bass down-notes as soon as they hear your offbeat bassline and the pattern & groove all goes to [ ****** ].

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.

Quote IvanSC:

---

Quote Richie Royale:

---

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

---

If you have to ask, you don`t get it.
Period.
(even bigger grin)

Listen to the couple of things posted on here and then listen to that half-assed loop thing posted by another well-intentioned R`nB Reborn fan.
Now the difference between that & the Bill Withers/Eddie Raven stuff is what groove is about.

---

No, I know what my interpretation of what a groove is, but as the term is open to interpretation, I was hoping you would be able to define it more clearly.

Are we talking about the vigour in which people play their instruments or the ability to make a track that makes people dance (and I don't mean the foxtrot)? Are we discussing the subtle timing changes by the drummer that holds the track together or the additional notes a bassist puts in to liven up the bottom end?

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote Richie Royale:

---

and I don't mean the foxtrot

---

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Tui:

---

From now on, we'll probably see several generations of imitators, imitating imitators.

---

The UK music scene since the dance music of the 1930s through to the Beatles and Stones and through to Punk and Hip Hop has been founded on imitation.

Carbon copies, albeit with slight twists, of what's been going on in the US.

There are very few exceptions IMO.

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

I dont see why people are slating the dubstep genre on here.

It's not "groovy" no. But it isn't meant to be. It's meant to be dark, heavy and atmospheric. Which it is.

Just because you dont understand how to dance to it or appreciate its subtlties doesnt mean it's a style that can't be danced to!

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www.myspace.com/michaeldow www.myspace.com/portasoundband

Quote IvanSC:

---

I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.


Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

---

Great idea, do you want me to do the loops on a laptop or MPC.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.

Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)

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No longer a forum member.

Quote IvanSC:

---

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.

But it still comes down to people knowing how to make it all breathe & live.

---

Agreed. You can also make a good groove with a solidly (machine) sequenced rhythm by having good musos who can play 'around' the backing. Jam and Lewis were very good at this - basic kick and snare on machine but everything else played 'around' that

I always thought Go West were very good too. Here they are from recent gigs...

Call Me

And king of swing with machines is our Trevor of course and this is just sublimely groovalicious in my opinion:

Slave To The Rhythm

Quote IvanSC:

---

So - any of you listened to the file I posted last night care to make a comment?

---

It's excellent.

The thing is, Ivan, you have such a deep well to draw from when you start bringing Nashville musos and C&W into the equation because they are almost all of them excellent musos who know how to 'play' and play together.

And I share your sentiments about the loop-based example that was posted. If it has a groove, it's simply because it's an existing groove by an 'old master' that was copied and pasted and looped

Quote IvanSC:

---

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville at the same time as me and came back to the UK a bit before me said she was not interested in getting a band together to gig her material as she couldn`t find anyone that could play ensemble well enough.
*sigh*

---

They are around - just hard to find.

Maybe the trouble is that you and your friend were spoilt in Nashville where the emphasis is on good old-fashioned musicianship first and foremost - you don't last two minutes there solely on 'attitude' ... if you can't cut it there, you wait tables!!!

We have some great musos here who could do what you want ... it's just that they are wider spread and harder to find ... or busy and booked up already!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Ian Stewart:

---

Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)

---

Er, been to a good ceilidh recently?

Sorry, I'll get back in my hole.

Chris

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote hollowsun:

---

And king of swing with machines is our Trevor of course and this is just sublimely groovalicious in my opinion:

Slave To The Rhythm

---

Ah yes... so in your opinion is the groove down to WASH THEM GO GO: William Ju Ju House (drums), Reginald Little Beats Daughtry (percussion) and Timothy Shorty Tim Glover (percussion), appearing courtesy of T.E.D.D. Records Inc....

or the sampler that he recorded them onto?

When I personally talk of a groove I'm referring to a certain cool economy with jazz-tinted music. Impro ( or at least the impression of impro) often plays a heavy role too. It's a certain lilt/genre that's very hard to describe. Soul man, slow disco, you know, funky. Haiku for the discotheque if you will. Definitely dance-orientated.

For me, with regards to groove-based orchestration and arrangements, it's often pared down to a few interwoven hooks featuring rhodes, hammond, vibes, guitar, simple but catchy basslines, a touch of brass, close black harmonies and tight drums.

In a more up-to-date context, I'm feeling Daft Punk's groove.

For a primer, here's JB with a chunky 10 minutes:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tDMfaFyW_EU

Note the ever-changing slight variations - it's essentially a jam session.

And as for this track by Dizzy, well, it infected my music ever after with a certain porn tweeness:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MIlPM0cxqnk

Check out the synth at 1:25, comedy man.

Some more for you, Aaron Neville with Hercules:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ySmdF1hTLS0

Classic JBs with Gimme Some More:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=V8-4osSHkJc

Being a nostalgic 70s kid, I admit to this being a wholly subjective and somewhat genre-tied interpretation of what constitutes a groove. As Ivan's track displays, we all have quite different but nonetheless valid ideas of what it actually means in practice.

Look around the dancefloor when a funk/rare groove track comes on. Most folks' bodies/heads bob down on the beat, groovers go up. Perhaps it's genetic...

Cheers.

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jQuery Text-To-Speech Framework

Quote John Willett:

---

I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.

---

So will the old phrase "in the groove" now be replaced by "in the pits"?

--------------------
No longer a forum member.

As a bass player, groove to me is when it feels like I'm plucking the kick drum.

--------------------
clicky

Quote Ian Stewart:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.


Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

---

Great idea, do you want me to do the loops on a laptop or MPC.

---

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Richie Royale:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

Quote Richie Royale:

---

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

---

If you have to ask, you don`t get it.
Period.
(even bigger grin)

Listen to the couple of things posted on here and then listen to that half-assed loop thing posted by another well-intentioned R`nB Reborn fan.
Now the difference between that & the Bill Withers/Eddie Raven stuff is what groove is about.

---

No, I know what my interpretation of what a groove is, but as the term is open to interpretation, I was hoping you would be able to define it more clearly.

Are we talking about the vigour in which people play their instruments or the ability to make a track that makes people dance (and I don't mean the foxtrot)? Are we discussing the subtle timing changes by the drummer that holds the track together or the additional notes a bassist puts in to liven up the bottom end?

---

Quite simply put, I can only reiterate what I said before.
When you`re getting it, you`ll know.

There will be not even the slightest shadow of doubt in your mind when you really hit a groove.

Best feeling in the world but the worst feeling in the world when it is close but you don`t quite get there.

It`s a distillation of all the little nuances of playing with others that suddenly create magic.

Good musicians respond to it by creating something that is more than the sum of the parts of those involved, punters with the ears and soul to appreciate it, get down on it.

The really is no way to quantify it, but it has nothing much to do with age or experience.
It just happens or it doesn`t.

When I was young I worked with only two drummers who made it feel like there was only one of us.
Later I learned to recreate that feeling to an extent through using my ears and my own sensitivity to other`s musical direction, but even then it doesn`t always work out.

A lot of African (particularly west african) music seems to reach that collective high a lot easier than europeans do.
Not sure why.
Maybe because they see music as a shared experience more than we do.
Not many ways to be a bedroom drummer....

Sorry if this still doesn`1t get over what I feel is missing so much nowadays, but after having nearly convinced myelf that valve amps DIDNT sound as great as I remembered them in my youth and then building a copy of an old one that did, I`m sticking to my guns on this one.

Less and less young players know how to hold down a groove.

Check ou tosme of the old rockabilly and western swing acts - they still groove like crazy for the most part.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Michael Dow:

---

I dont see why people are slating the dubstep genre on here.

It's not "groovy" no. But it isn't meant to be. It's meant to be dark, heavy and atmospheric. Which it is.

Just because you dont understand how to dance to it or appreciate its subtlties doesnt mean it's a style that can't be danced to!

---

I for one haven`t a clue what dubstep is.

Similar to a Twostep or a Quickstep?
(grin)
But for what it is worth if people struggle to dance to it, there`s something wrong with the music, not the people.

Not all music is innately suitable for dancing but if it`s for dancing and it don`t groove, it`s just that much harder to dance to.
God I hope nobody mentions Dance Music.

*sigh*


Hang on a mo - I just went all over this thread looking for where someone slagged off your dubstep.

Not a sign of the word "dubstep" till you accused someone of slagging it off.

Are you in the wrong thread, Michael?

Or did I nod off at a crucial moment again?

Nearly my bedtime.

Edited by IvanSC (01/10/08 08:20 PM)

Ha Ivan!

Great reading as always.

I won't go into dance music seeing as you believe disco decimated some corner of the 70s music market.

I think you are spot on in some respects but a little disparaging when it comes to contemporary music and what makes the kids groove nowadays. And that's OK. You're always reminding people that you're an older gentleman so its OK for you to feel that way. I am not as old as you are but I grew up on a diet of Disco, Philly Soul (Gamble and Huff) followed it through to Boogie (Change, Chic) to House Music (although not as much ) and to the current state its in. I too don't like the newer model and prefer the old one. But I appreciate the newer stuff because I know kids like it and kids buy the records (OK maybe less here than in the US).

The groove is subjective. What makes an old timer like you move, doesn't make a kid from Clapton move in the same way.

I don't mean any disprespect of course.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote IvanSC:

---

if people struggle to dance to it, there`s something wrong with the music

---

You haven't been to the weddings I have.

Quote IvanSC:

---

A lot of African (particularly west african) music seems to reach that collective high a lot easier than europeans do.
Not sure why.

---

... because they're not taught that the only beats that really 'matter' are 1.2.3.4... when music is being played anywhere in Africa you'll see little kids banging away on anything close at hand, and very often across the beat, playing 3 over 4, or sometimes in patterns that don't seem, initially, to have anything to do with the main rhythm. Nobody tells them they're 'wrong' or that the only place to hit the damn thing is on the downbeat. Very often the most natural place they choose to pick up on is the offbeat, not any kind of downbeat. This means you get generations of musicians who are perfectly happy stretching and pushing the 'strict' definition of whatever the rhythm is 'supposed' to be all over the place. When I first played African music I was always told 'no-play just before [or just after] where you're playing now'- the available 'places' between beats where it was perfectly appropriate to play were far, far wider than in any other music I'd played before. It was a real education.

It's that that makes so much African music 'up', and so much 'white' music 'down'. If you concentrate all the energy into the downbeat (ie, 4 to the floor music) without a corresponding energy into the offbeat, it's like piledrivers into the brain (and speaking purely personally, [ ****** ] boring) Slap a 3,5,6, or even 7 rhythm across a 4 and immediately you'll get all kinds of interesting polyrhythms going on that just make the body wiggle. It's just a whole lot more fun.

.... and it's [ ****** ] groovy.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote Ben:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

if people struggle to dance to it, there`s something wrong with the music

---

You haven't been to the weddings I have.

---

You may like to review the previous comments about Caucasians... or maybe it's just the English. Or maybe just English males. Especially if they're wearing suits. And definitely when they're wearing tails...

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

tomafd - love it!

I think your point about 1-2-3-4 has featured in more of my posts on here than just about any other complaint I have about UK musicians.

It isnt so much as I "dance to the beat of a different drummer" as it were. more that I think sampled rhythm sections and sequencing have led to a huge turn down in the amount of naturally expressed music there is out there.
It`s not easy to create a groove when James Brown`s drummer laid down the feel for you 40 years ago.
I hate to just throw out a blanket "non-british music" categorisation of where most of the real "feel" tracks are nowadays adn equally was at pains to not post a typical "funky" track as my example.
Find me some hip hop that honestly has a good original feel and I`ll begetting down with all the rest even at my advanced age.
FWIW the same thing has happened on the UK Country scene.
All that is out there is soulless rubbish.
Maybe we should all stick to indigenous ethnic British music.
(cue bagpipes and lutes)
Wish I could invite you all round to my place to try and SHOW you what I am on about.
Very frustrating at present.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Used to be I only needed someone to tell me what diddy-wah-diddy meant.
Now I need someone to tell me about dubstep too.

Have all you lazy young gits gone to bed already?
I`ve had my horlicks and I`m ready to (t)roll.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

---

Used to be I only needed someone to tell me what diddy-wah-diddy meant.
Now I need someone to tell me about dubstep too.

Have all you lazy young gits gone to bed already?
I`ve had my horlicks and I`m ready to (t)roll.

---

Evening Ivan... FWIW, if you have a look back to the earlier part of this thread you will find a somewhat sarky comment from myself about dubstep, so it's all my fault... though it was also a little tongue in cheek, 'cos actually I quite like the stuff- or like it more than a lot of newer genres. It's just that it's not really much good to dance to... but then I am in my dotage, compared to those who make it.

Basically- it's drum n bass, of a sort, though the tempo is usually a tad slower, and the beats more broken up. Often features a 'wobbly' synth bass with what sounds like a quick LFO sinewave modulation slapped into the filter now and then. Lots of vaguely atonal slabs of sound flying around, and generally 'edgy', 'moody', and appropriate for serious young men being ... serious. Slap 'dubstep' into the youtube search box and you'll find plenty.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote IvanSC:

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Find me some hip hop that honestly has a good original feel and I`ll begetting down with all the rest even at my advanced age.

---

I like DJ Premier . Well into his forties!!

Not your typical rock or country arrangement for sure! But then its Black American music in the tradition of Jazz and Blues... and its very successful both in sales figures and cultural influence.

And Premier has groove. Fo sho.

ken



ken

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I'm All Ears.

it's the downside of the democratisation of the means of production init?

whilst more people have access to the tools to create music many of which automate hitherto manual skills, the number of people putting the hours in to become even half decent musicians let alone good ones is still the same .. not many in other words

i mean come on, computer based music, it's all got a bit out of hand hasn't it?! i saw some soft synth the other day, it's got like 12,000 presets!!!!!!

i'm not suggesting we go backwards, you've just got to educate people as to what music actually is

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

i played my friend's little daughter some random bleepy electronica (which i quite like) and asked her what it sounded like

she's quite a bright and quirky child, she replied

"it sounds like the internet"

i found that quite an unsettling comment somehow!

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote tomafd:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

Used to be I only needed someone to tell me what diddy-wah-diddy meant.
Now I need someone to tell me about dubstep too.

Have all you lazy young gits gone to bed already?
I`ve had my horlicks and I`m ready to (t)roll.

---

Evening Ivan... FWIW, if you have a look back to the earlier part of this thread you will find a somewhat sarky comment from myself about dubstep, so it's all my fault... though it was also a little tongue in cheek, 'cos actually I quite like the stuff- or like it more than a lot of newer genres. It's just that it's not really much good to dance to... but then I am in my dotage, compared to those who make it.

Basically- it's drum n bass, of a sort, though the tempo is usually a tad slower, and the beats more broken up. Often features a 'wobbly' synth bass with what sounds like a quick LFO sinewave modulation slapped into the filter now and then. Lots of vaguely atonal slabs of sound flying around, and generally 'edgy', 'moody', and appropriate for serious young men being ... serious. Slap 'dubstep' into the youtube search box and you'll find plenty.

---

I`ll go have a look/listen then - also to the example of "modern stuff that boogies" posted after you.
DJ somebody and er Premier.
Maybe we should retitle the thread "in search of the lost groove"?
I sort of agree about the effect of technology and the sea of poo-poo (god I hate having to call a spade a gardening implement) we seem to be floating in right now.
Perhaps it really is just down to the level of musicianship, but harking back a little, I doubt if all those African Tribesmen are accomplished "professional" percussionists.
Still comes down to feel and sensibility I suppose.

New retirement project perhaps.
Uncle Ivan`s House of Groove - (c)Jan Pulsford - residential course in bootie shaking and getting down held in the tranquil breton countryside.
Bring yer own bag.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

with no regard to anything except the dubstep comment - i wouldn't say it's actually much to do with drum and bass. it may have come from the same community and uses breakbeats, but it's much more like a collision of dub and garage than ye olde techstep.

Ivan - you are fully within your rights to go "whaaaaaaa" to this post.

btw... what are your thoughts on groove metal? does it "groove" or not? (example...)

EDIT: i feel i should point out that the video i've linked to is ruddy hilarious... i'm sure they looked very tough back in the nineties

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Edited by onesecondglance (02/10/08 07:26 AM)

Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.

The hair bear bunch might well be laying down a great groove but 2 things stop it being evident.
The soundtrack to the video has been sliced and diced so many places even if there WAS a groove it has disappeared under all that creative editing.
And DB`s guitar just washes over everything till you can`t hear what the bass player is doing at all.
Just a big blurry subterranean rumble to the point where you don`t know if he is hitting the groove or not.
Even on my main studio monitors.

Put some ACDC stuff up there.
They know how to hit a groove, grab it by the neck and shake it.

I`ve heard Neil Diamond get closer to rockin` it with a pit band than this lot.

I could cry with frustration at just how much so many of you are NOT getting it.

Go listen to Larry Blackmon/Cameo for some recent, manufactured MOBO that still grooves like crazy.

Beginning to think the Prodigy would be a better modern-ish example of something that comes close.

Losing the will to live here, guys.

P.S. I didnt like Gnora Bjones much either but as you say the guys she was working with had fun.

(pause for tea)

Oh well - just went and youtubed up a bunch of dubstep & far from being subtle, sohpisticated, not easy to dance to, etc it just sounds like a dumbed down version of real dub.

Remember?

That stuff with all the echoes that came out of reggae a few years back?

Spent a short while in Jamaica in the eighties and they have it.

Groove.

Maybe its just down to age and experience but everything I hear being heralded as new and exciting & "the old can`t understand it" turns out to be a watered down version of something done earlier but then given its own whole sub-genre of music.
"It`s Acid trash house garbage Goan Indie trip hop ennit?"

For gods sake someone SHOW me something!

If I ever figure out translating vinyl onto mp3 I am going to up load some 1950`s west african stuff that will have you all crying because it sounds so effortless and you lot CAN`T DO IT.
DON`T GET IT

Even Elvis`s early stuff had a decent groove to it.



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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Edited by IvanSC (02/10/08 08:39 AM)

You're a big cuddly bear Ivan. Yes you are, Yes you are...

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote IvanSC:

---

The hair bear bunch might well be laying down a great groove but 2 things stop it being evidfent.
The soundtrack to the video has been sliced and diced so many places even if there WAS a groove it has disappeared under all that creative editing.
And DB`s guitar just washes over everything till you can`t hear what the bass player is doing at all.
Even on my main studio monitors.

---

well, it is taken from youtube!

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

1 2nd glance.
youtube didnt put all those pauses in there.
Mind you the pauses were in the right pace and of course tight because the band didnt actually play it like that, irt was cut like that.
Amazed the band pout up with it.
The bits where they are playing unedited sounds like it was pretty good, apart from the bass slurry & that ain`t the players fault..

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Handlestash:

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You're a big cuddly bear Ivan. Yes you are, Yes you are...

---

You calling me FAT?


As a small aside, I sincerely hope that all of you reading and participating in this thread are aware of my somewhat warped sense of humor and know I am not really getting ticked off about this.
But there is much more than a grain of truth in what I`m saying.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

---

1 2nd glance.
youtube didnt put all those pauses in there.
Mind you the pauses were in the right pace and of course tight because the band didnt actually play it like that, irt was cut like that.
Amazed the band pout up with it.
The bits where they are playing unedited sounds like it was pretty good, apart from the bass slurry & that ain`t the players fault..

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.

---

i was talking about the general sound quality... but anyway, that would be a "no", you don't think "groove metal" grooves much...

i do sympathise with you; there's not a lot of stuff out there with a *real* groove to it. but it's like shouting at the tide for coming in too fast... ("dammit sea, you're supposed to be behind the beat!")

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

---

Quote IvanSC:

---

1 2nd glance.
youtube didnt put all those pauses in there.
Mind you the pauses were in the right pace and of course tight because the band didnt actually play it like that, irt was cut like that.
Amazed the band pout up with it.
The bits where they are playing unedited sounds like it was pretty good, apart from the bass slurry & that ain`t the players fault..

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.

---

i was talking about the general sound quality... but anyway, that would be a "no", you don't think "groove metal" grooves much...

i do sympathise with you; there's not a lot of stuff out there with a *real* groove to it. but it's like shouting at the tide for coming in too fast... ("dammit sea, you're supposed to be behind the beat!")

---

NBot at all. I just couldn`t hear enough of what the band were actually playing rather than what some [ ****** ] producer had decided to do to the track to tell.
It`s a conspiracy led by skinny blokes with iMacs and a good line in bullsh1t

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

---

Quote onesecondglance:

---

Quote IvanSC:

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It`s a conspiracy led by skinny blokes with iMacs and a good line in bullsh1t

---

lol

Quote IvanSC:

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Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.

---

yes, but then you are positively contributing to the lives of others by keeping such an entertaining thread going (keep telling yourself that, it's as good an excuse as any other)...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

---

Quote IvanSC:

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Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.

---

yes, but then you are positively contributing to the lives of others by keeping such an entertaining thread going (keep telling yourself that, it's as good an excuse as any other)...

---

I always feel guilty for contributing to, or indeed starting, threads like this (friday threads as I think of them) because I'm not a gear head so I rarely contribute to the more 'serious' threads.

Now, back to business. For some groovey Metal you can't beat Rage. Their renegades covers record has a very sexy groove (despite Rick Rubin's brick wall mastering)

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

only found unbutton my oops sorry LORD of the flies and open up my grave.

Flies left me cold.

Grave is remarkable in that there are far fewer producerly holes/gating, plus you can actually hear what everyone is going.

Once it gets past the "aren`t we clever" bit at the beginning, it certainly trucks along just fine.
But again the guys have obviously taken time to get it right.
I`m left cold by the music but salute the recording and the playing.
Are they Yanks or Germans?
Suppose they could be dutch.......... Nah.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Ian Stewart:

---

Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)

---

ha!.. actually my brother in law cant dance for toffee, and he ain't Caucasian

he did fight Lloyd Hunnigan once tho so it's not that he doesnt have good footwork, he just doesnt 'do dancing'



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You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.

Quote IvanSC:

---

Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.

---

Ha ha Ivan. Love reading your posts but you definitely are very disparaging. Sometimes, a loose timing is groovy. And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .

If Premier is no good, then how come he's platinum?

Keep it up mate

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote IvanSC:

---

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.

---

Quantise is my enemy, but I wouldn't alter the tempo in a dance track. Feel goes round and round. It's far easier to move the individual hits than [ ****** ] with the tempo. One thing that is always overlooked in this debate is that those groovy old guys were all trying there god damnedest to play like machines would if only they had machines that could do that back then. But all in the pocket, of course. The more solid the tempo stays, when playing live, the easier it is for all the players to sit in their individual pocket. Which is the basis for a good groove. And which pocket moves up and down on the bar, the 2 bar phrase and also the structure. I lost count of the drummers who love to sit in front of my laid back groove but speed up when I get up on the beat for my bass fills.

The bloke blaming it all on hip hop, I can only assume he struck his pose way back and never listened to modern American black music ever since. So muck R&B and hip hop nowadays is played live for producers who are not afraid to use all the technology at their disposal. Including looping and sampling. Those are probably the only current pop genres where chops are still a valued tool. Check the Neptunes for one end of that equation and the Roots for the other. With Dr Dre in the commercial middle.

If I had to blame a genre, I'd blame punk rock for devaluing chops in the first place. And indie rock for keeping the originality over skills attitude alive thru all these years. No wonder people turn to hard quantised psy trance or electo house when the alternative is some aimless twirling to the earnest offerings of some shoe-gazing op-shop types.

Or is that a bit harsh? My keyboard gets away on me sometimes.

Quote:

---

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville

---

Speaking of pockets. Good country music can be as funky as anything James Brown has done, in a white boy kind of way. Plus the lyrics tend to be a lot more grown up. Too bad it's commercial face has been overrun by all those crossover pop artists.

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"To upgrade a computer, physically hardwarewise, is easier than making a lego dog kennel." Tex

I think I know what you are getting at Ivan , but I am not too familiar with the "youth" type bands , and tend to look back in time for my groovy stuff EG. Cameo , Cymande , Funkadelic , Yargo (not me , the Manchester band!)

I have heard some nice stuff from Air that is more laid back and lets some groove go (I am not a fan of band so only vaguely know a tune or two)
Air

Oh sweet Lord... something is VERY wrong with the time/space continuum here ....

Because I actually agree with almost everything Britney says - that has GOT to be a first!!!

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee ... and are happy to admit that. Sure - they can build collages from loops and I've seen some 'wiki-wik' a turntable with some degree of skill (even though it all sounds the bloody same to me) but they couldn't play or establish a groove themselves - they have to 'borrow' them.

And country music can be WELL groovy and can be rockier than foot to the floor metal!!! A much-derided genre (and MUCH bigger a genre than hip-hop and other dance genres collectively by a substantially large factor).

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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And country music can be WELL groovy and can be rockier than foot to the floor metal!!! A much-derided genre (and MUCH bigger a genre than hip-hop and other dance genres collectively by a substantially large factor).

---

Yeah, but they wear cheesecloth shirts and having a dude with a long beard, mega belly and dungarees moonwalking to a shaker just doesn't really look cool to me.

Groove is all about hair.

You gotta have the right hair to be funky.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

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You gotta have the right hair to be funky.

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Would that be the afro sported by Bill Wither's drummer, then ?

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote Ken Long:

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Quote IvanSC:

---

Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.

---

Ha ha Ivan. Love reading your posts but you definitely are very disparaging. Sometimes, a loose timing is groovy. And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .

If Premier is no good, then how come he's platinum?

Keep it up mate

ken

---

beccause folks don`t know any better, as usual.
There`s loose timing and then there is loose timing.

I am not disparaging, I`m telling it like it is.

I dont want to show my ass, but I have played with some good people over the years and there are still plenty of good people around.
Old and young.
Problem is as I said people don`t know enough to know that.
If you seriously think that DJ Premier has some hot stuff, you are truly deluded, son.
I have heard people who can make an Mpc and decks, etc., scream but he ain`t one of them.

Go back and listen to your posted example and follow what is happening.
There are places wher it IS together for quite lengthy spells (4 or 5 bars) which to me just says the man can`t hack it, not that he did it deliberately.

Now I am not talking about half a beat out here, just the little piece that turns a piece of music into a three legged race.
Or if you like, a milking stool.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

This thread is stuffed full of gratitious generalisations, ranging from 'White people can't dance' to 'Hip hop musicians can't play' to 'Punk/Techno/R&B killed musicianship'. While there may be a grain of truth in any number of generalisations, it's a little bit akin to a stopped clock being right twice a day, or firing a shotgun at a barn door and claiming to have hit something!

For some reason though, I'm just as happy not to get into a detailed debate about most of these points. Two that I can't pass on though, are these:

Quote Tui:

---

I guess what's happening to pop/rock today is what happened to jazz/big band in the 1970s: The initial excitement and anarchic energy has been used up.

---

You what? My favourite jazz is from the 70s and for my money has more excitement and anarchic energy than anything before or since. I speak of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, and especially, Billy Cobham's solo stuff.

Quote Ken Long:

---

Quote Tui:

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From now on, we'll probably see several generations of imitators, imitating imitators.

---

The UK music scene since the dance music of the 1930s through to the Beatles and Stones and through to Punk and Hip Hop has been founded on imitation.

Carbon copies, albeit with slight twists, of what's been going on in the US.

There are very few exceptions IMO.ken

---

What about prog rock and metal throughout the 70s and early 80s? Pink Floyd was a carbon copy of whom? Iron Maiden and Motorhead, carbon copies? Slayer are on record as being inspired by Maiden, and the number of metal bands (including American bands) namechecking Black Sabbath must be countless.

As for the Beatles, I'd love to hear the band the Beatles were 'carbon-copying' when they did the White Album or Revolver!




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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Ken Long:

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And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .


ken

---

That's not quite it. One of the few downsides of getting older (apart from slowly falling apart...) is that you find out that you've heard one hell of a lot of music, over the years, so when anything 'new' pops up you can usually spot where it comes from, and usually- it's just not as good as the original, or, when it's a blend of different genres, it doesn't work as well as either of it's progenitors. There seems to be some kind of inevitable watering-down process going on. Very, very rarely, something will turn up that is a definite improvement on previous work or really does produce something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting.

However much you may knock them, a very good example of that was the Beatles' first few albums, which married a whole lot of different influences into a genuinely new form- but it didn't sound like a forced marriage, it sounded totally natural. Lennon did some very interesting things with chords and melodies that no-one had done before, and which a lot of folk have been copying ever since.

The big difference between previous generations and today is that if musicians did want to try new things, they had no choice but to actually play their instruments, to do it- and so often, the new interesting stuff happened because they couldn't actually do what they were trying to do, and ended up doing something different, and just as interesting- and original- instead.

Now the game seems to be simply pillaging old recordings and then bending those recordings until you think you've got something you think is 'new'- (and, so often, announcing a new 'genre' (yet another new genre))- when all you've got is a very slight variation on an existing form... which probably isn't that interesting, in itself.

While there are, occasionally, individuals working in new electronic genres whose productions are immediately recognizable from the first bar- they do seem to be very few. Maybe that's not the point, and maybe the point is to produce yet another faceless dance tune (whatever the genre) that just sounds like any other faceless dance tune.

... but i can't see how that's 'thinking outside the box'. More like keeping the box firmly on your head, to me. And it's that that pisses off us oldsters. We're desperate to hear something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting, from you youngsters- but most of the time, we don't hear it. We just hear where you nicked it from.

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote Zukan:

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Yeah, but they wear cheesecloth shirts and having a dude with a long beard, mega belly and dungarees moonwalking to a shaker just doesn't really look cool to me.

Groove is all about hair.

You gotta have the right hair to be funky.

---

Have you been at my photo album again, Zuke?
Actually the UK country folks are hilarious. All boots `n buckles and Nudie shirts.
BIt like going to Dallas in 1972.
Oh and replica cap guns!

Worst part? That`s the audience!

A friend of mine just posted a comment from shall we say a less than committed (or comittable) fan.
There`s only two sorts of people who wear stetsons.
Cowboys and A$$holes.
He also said he and his partner had decided to quit wearing theirs even on country gigs.
Incidentally, he and I are sort of thinking about starting an old folks boogie band up to show you young muppets how to do it properly.
Hah!
My money will, as always, be right where my mouth is.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

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I am not disparaging, I`m telling it like it is.

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No you are giving your opinion. There really is no right or wrong here.

Quote:

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I dont want to show my ass, but I have played with some good people over the years and there are still plenty of good people around.

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Please don't show your ass. Yes, I'm aware of your experience. I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

Quote:

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If you seriously think that DJ Premier has some hot stuff, you are truly deluded, son.
I have heard people who can make an Mpc and decks, etc., scream but he ain`t one of them.

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If you don't think so, that's fine. But be aware that he's one of the most in-demand remixers in the US. He must be doing somehting right? Oh and I'm not deluded. Just open-minded .

Quote:

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Go back and listen to your posted example and follow what is happening.
There are places wher it IS together for quite lengthy spells (4 or 5 bars) which to me just says the man can`t hack it, not that he did it deliberately.

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I can't say I agree there either. He is doing it deliberately and I think that those instances where it sounds "off" are intended. Listen to anything else by him and you will see what I mean.

Quote:

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Now I am not talking about half a beat out here, just the little piece that turns a piece of music into a three legged race.
Or if you like, a milking stool.

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Now that's funny!



ken

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I'm All Ears.

If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.

Quote tomafd:

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Quote Ken Long:

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And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .


ken

---

That's not quite it. One of the few downsides of getting older (apart from slowly falling apart...) is that you find out that you've heard one hell of a lot of music, over the years, so when anything 'new' pops up you can usually spot where it comes from, and usually- it's just not as good as the original, or, when it's a blend of different genres, it doesn't work as well as either of it's progenitors. There seems to be some kind of inevitable watering-down process going on. Very, very rarely, something will turn up that is a definite improvement on previous work or really does produce something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting.

However much you may knock them, a very good example of that was the Beatles' first few albums, which married a whole lot of different influences into a genuinely new form- but it didn't sound like a forced marriage, it sounded totally natural. Lennon did some very interesting things with chords and melodies that no-one had done before, and which a lot of folk have been copying ever since.

The big difference between previous generations and today is that if musicians did want to try new things, they had no choice but to actually play their instruments, to do it- and so often, the new interesting stuff happened because they couldn't actually do what they were trying to do, and ended up doing something different, and just as interesting- and original- instead.

Now the game seems to be simply pillaging old recordings and then bending those recordings until you think you've got something you think is 'new'- (and, so often, announcing a new 'genre' (yet another new genre))- when all you've got is a very slight variation on an existing form... which probably isn't that interesting, in itself.

While there are, occasionally, individuals working in new electronic genres whose productions are immediately recognizable from the first bar- they do seem to be very few. Maybe that's not the point, and maybe the point is to produce yet another faceless dance tune (whatever the genre) that just sounds like any other faceless dance tune.

... but i can't see how that's 'thinking outside the box'. More like keeping the box firmly on your head, to me. And it's that that pisses off us oldsters. We're desperate to hear something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting, from you youngsters- but most of the time, we don't hear it. We just hear where you nicked it from.

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !

---

Wot `ee said.

and Pink Floyd were after the acid bands from san francisco.

mind you it did all sort of come together acroos the whole world at that time as I remember.
But it WAS the sixties so who knows how reliable my memory is.
The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)
And remember Dave G was doing Beach Boys covers a scant year or so before he joined Pink Floyd.
Rog Barratt`s band was doing drifters and coasters covers!
I was playing blues and r `n b at the time.
In fact I was playing it in about 1963 come to think of it.
Must have been - the band was called Johhny "R `n B" Phillips and the Hi Fi`s.
Cheeeeesy!

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Tui:

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If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.

---

Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Ken Long:

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I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

ken

---

You can if you actually have any new tricks to teach.


The day I stop learning something new in music or getting surprised by it, is the day I`ll quit playing.

As for doing it deliberately, I guess that makes my case. He`s DELIBERATELY messing up a perfectly acceptable groove?
And of course once again what he is really doing is shuffling recordings of musicians playing instruments then cutting & pasting.

It is perfectly possible to make great music with samples etc but not if you just slap a bunch of loops which contain your basic rhythmic feel together and call it art or music or whatever.

For me the human element is what makes or breaks a groove and so long as you are relying on a machine for any element of the timing the only way you are ever going to make a piece groove is if it is un-mechanised by human players with good feel.

FWIW I use drum samples a lot. But when I`m live they get played on an electronic kit by my drummer and when I am working in the studio they get tapped or programmed in by me to fit the groove I am creating at the time.
And IF I had room I`d have a real drummer every time.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

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The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)

---

"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote tomafd:

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Quote IvanSC:

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The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)

---

"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.

---

The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...

What's wrong with prog anyway?!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Handlestash:

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Quote Tui:

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If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.

---

Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?

---

Are you asking for my opinion? Here goes:

Belle & Sebastian - Competent performers, yet strangely derivative music, reminiscent of the 60s. The groove isn't helped by drums that are too prominent in the mix (I've only listened to two tracks, mind).

Queens of the Stone Age - Not my cup of tea, but it's obvious where they've got their ideas from... Listen to Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, UFO, The Sweet (oh yes! ).

Contemporary rock is just so boring, I'm sorry to say. I'm used to hearing great tunes AND great performances - at the same time. Check out, for starters, Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant. Now, that's music.

Quote The Elf:

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The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...

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There are tracks from that and other Yes albums available as karaoke tracks in Japan!!

Quote The Elf:

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What's wrong with prog anyway?!

---

Quite. Like everything, there's good and bad prog but I'll tell you what...

They may be a bunch of ageing old duffers (and arguably not prog anymore) but Genesis are as tight as a gnat's chuffer live and can kick the arses of almost any of the bright young things on the circuit today!!

I've heard some records by youthful bands on the wireless that really appeal to me ... and then I've had the misfortune to see them play it live. What a load of shambolic kack! Lots of posturing and attitude on-stage but seemingly no ability to kick it!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote tomafd:

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So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !

---

the first rule of groove club is... oh wait, tomafd just posted the first five

you know what would be more impressive than creating a groove by following those instructions? creating a groove IGNORING all those instructions... now that would be skill.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective