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IvanSC



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Can`t anybody groove any more?
      #662157 - 30/09/08 10:21 AM
this is prolly OT but what the heck.
I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.

In the course of organising things, it occurred to me that he number of young players who can actually recognise a good groove, let alone create one is dwindling fast.

Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Jim Taylor



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662179 - 30/09/08 11:01 AM
LOL

Not whilst all the guys currently getting airplay (and whatever other 'play' they can get) are tortured little souls who need another mother

Now all we need is for someone to own up to losing the funk and we might get back on track

Lead the charge



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Dave Rowles



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Jim Taylor]
      #662224 - 30/09/08 12:31 PM
Lots of people are getting the groove back. I know a few players who would rather hold down a good groove then play something complicated and flashy. It's part of my philosophy too!

But yeah, there is a shocking lack of groove in certain generations!

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John Willett
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Dave Rowles]
      #662249 - 30/09/08 01:24 PM
I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.



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tomafd



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662250 - 30/09/08 01:25 PM
Yup, watching the average punter trying to dance to the more extreme forms of dubstep and similar genres is like watching the Simpsons electrocuting each other. Breakbeats are one thing, beats destroyed to the point of rhythmic unintelligibility are quite another. You may as well try and dance to a metal workshop in Cairo.

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Richie Royale



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #662255 - 30/09/08 01:33 PM
Quote tomafd:

metal workshop in Cairo.




This I like the sound of. More rhythm than dubstep.

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ken long



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: John Willett]
      #662270 - 30/09/08 02:33 PM
Quote John Willett:

I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.








--------------------
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Handlestash



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662288 - 30/09/08 03:37 PM
I know an AMAZING singer who was fired from her band a couple of months ago for, how did they put it, oh yes,
They asked her to 'tone it down on stage' and she couldn't so they fired her.
I've seen this girl perform umpteen times and she has such a great groove.
The other chaps just stood still.
What kind of music did they play, I hear you ask, that prompted them to such drastic measures?
FUNK METAL! Al la Rage!
And they wanted her to stand still!!!
Wan**rs.

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Commander



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662296 - 30/09/08 03:49 PM
It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...


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Handlestash



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662298 - 30/09/08 03:53 PM
You've seen the footage of Bill Withers on The old grey whistel test playing Ain't no Sunshine?
His drummer man...
Grooooooovvvvvvvveeeeeeeyyyyyyy.

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Temp



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662317 - 30/09/08 04:50 PM
In case you hadn't...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdIqbv7SPo

Reckon the bass player's just about ready for bed I agree about the absence of a groove in these bright young things; been trying to get a soul/funk/rare groove outfit going for a long time round here.

Coming from the home town of JTQ you'd have thought I'd have some luck, but no joy as yet.

Sorry - had to tag this on. Creamy clav!

Bill Withers - use me

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g3hBYTkI-sE

Can we turn this into a groove appreciation thread, brothers and sisters?


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dubbmann
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662320 - 30/09/08 04:56 PM
great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap. america's soul engine is closed for business, and we're all missing it. look at the success of the dap kings (btw, they recorded a fake noir-soul lp under the title 'revenge of mr. mopoji' soundtrack - killer rhythm section). i've said for years now that rap was the evil spawn of crack cocaine and cheap drum machines (sort of like a very hip dr.who villain) and among other things it's meant a whole generation of black musicians haven't learnt to play drums, bass, horns, etc, or to sing for that matter. one interesting phenomenon of the last ten years: a number of older generation black soul musicians (solomon burke, sharon jones, betty levette, ) are being discovered or rediscovered by the listening public because there are practically no younger ones and the older folks can finally get some oxygen. the comment about bill wither's drummer was spot on: listen to the backing tracks on his cuts, they were as tight as (insert crude sexual metaphor here) and there wasn't an ounce of wasted playing.

i could go on but i think i've said enough =:-O

cheers,

d

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Ben



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: dubbmann]
      #662324 - 30/09/08 05:08 PM
I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.


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Ronnie Wibbley
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662327 - 30/09/08 05:13 PM
Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???


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Persuazion



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662330 - 30/09/08 05:30 PM
Quote IvanSC:


Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.




Lessons from the man himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdz88MBWomo

--------------------
http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ben]
      #662367 - 30/09/08 07:59 PM
Quote Ben:

I'll be unpopular... The whole 'groove' thing has a bit of a whiff about it. A drummer I used to play with went to MI and was regularly awarded a mark for his 'groove'. It becomes an idea guarded by musos who appreciate 'real' music. Not cool to the kids. Everyone appreciates the old players, but there are plenty of other places to go with a musical feel.



Yes but I am talking specifically about music aimed at your arse.
the vast majority of music I hear nowadays hs the same feel as a marching band.
I posted a song file in the our songs part of the forum. GO listen & even if you HATE the musical style, tell me it didnt get you wiggling in your orthopedic chair.

OH, boy. 22 listens already and not ONE comment.

Too sad.

Even if you hate it, say so.
This is not about being great musicians it is about a collective conciousness.
Damn that sounds so pretentious. Sorry.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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jayzed
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662376 - 30/09/08 08:20 PM
I think that most musicians don't get to play enough as a unit these days.

House residencies are pretty much a thing of the past and there isn't a circuit, not that I can see anyway. Not in the sense that there used to be.

Constant playing (to an audience) teaches the importance of feel and space. It teaches that amazing, almost telepathic sense of knowing what the other people are about to do which lets you leave space or fill up space left for you. This can happen without constant playing but I imagine it's a lot less likely and not with mere mortals like myself.

I was lucky enough to get a 'groove' of sorts with one bunch and although we were never anywhere near to making it I'll never forget that chemistry that took us two years of playing at least twice a week to get. Musicians who get to play more would have more chance to reach this level sooner, I imagine. It's an amazing feeling and we were nowhere near good enough to get it all the time but when we did, it was the most amazing high. This is what I think I hear in music that to me has a great groove - this is the sense of musicians playing off one another.

This isn't a rant of 'the old days are better' (although it probably sounds like it). No, it's a rant of playing more is better - although that is harder to do these days, now that music is less of an event, more a ubiquity in all our lives.

That's my take, anyway.


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Ian Stewart



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662403 - 30/09/08 09:11 PM
The only thing people are interested in now is being managers, everything else is unappealing.

I saw Bootsie Collins live - wow, its like seeing the energy that controls the universe. I can't describe it in words so won't try. So I'm white, into new wave, electronica and classical music but Bootsie Collins can cut through everything. Bootsie Collins takes over where quantum physics stops.

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No longer a forum member.


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662404 - 30/09/08 09:12 PM
28 listens & the only comment I have so far came from a chum I occasionally jam with - sent it to him as anexample of what we COULD be doing & he just replied that his jaw was on the floor. Not his thing at all but "what a feel"

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Ian Stewart



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: dubbmann]
      #662410 - 30/09/08 09:27 PM
Quote dubbmann:

great post! i definitely agree w/t thought, and i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.




Partly agree with that. Old school is good, it was designed for dancing. Check out this :

Ultramagnetic MCs

It also is where the prodigy got their title from.

Don't forget early MCs like Lovebug Starski.

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No longer a forum member.


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662420 - 30/09/08 09:44 PM
*sigh*

I rest my case.

Loop city.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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...................
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662428 - 30/09/08 09:57 PM
Groovy players are becoming a bit scarcer, I think it's true. A quick check with new players is if they can play on, ahead or behind of the beat, to order. Still in time of course, just pushing it about, as you do. Don't seem to find that so much at the moment. It's no criticism of ability, I think it's a lack of opportunity. I still remember, gratefully, the people who showed me about this, and how it messed with my head at the time! It was a good lesson though
It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662445 - 30/09/08 10:45 PM
Used to have some midi drum files that were played onto a midi kit by the late great Larry Landin.
Mentioned on here before how it opened my eyes as to how a truly great player can mess with the pocket but consistently, which is of course part of the key.

The other thing is using your ears and eyes more than your mouth.

Still not sure about this "kids don`t get to play out any more" bit.

I can remember rehearsing till my fingers bled for weeks before that ONE gig you managed to get - usually twenty or thirty minutes as opening band for the local heroes of the time.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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hollowsun



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ronnie Wibbley]
      #662477 - 01/10/08 12:51 AM
Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

Bloody Kraftwerk!



Oh... Kraftwerk have their own 'groove' albeit a 'mechanised' one but it's a groove nonetheless. They're not trying to be funky or groovy in the strict sense of the word - they WANT that 'man machine' mechanisation.

Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

Bloody Atari 1040s!



You may have a point there....

Sequencer quantisation switched on by default that will correct the cack-handedness of many a bedroom muso the world over has probably (arguably definitely) led to a decrease in real, honest to goodness playing skills. I mean, back in the day, you just played/practiced/recorded the part over and over and over again until you nailed it - now, even the sloppiest performance comes out sounding in time (and any duff notes can be micro-edited out). And this doesn't just apply to MIDI sequencing - audio events can be quantised and corrected and sanitised and even vocals can be brought into time and into tune with all the tools available to us today.

It's no wonder, then, that when (or these days, IF) such people venture out to play with others in a live ensemble situation, no-one can hack it.

I am not setting myself up here as a paragon of virtue by the way. I used to be able to play fairly proficiently but it is s-o-o-o-o-o much easier and quicker to let my MPC take care of the timing (I draw the line at micro-editing bum notes out though - quicker and easier to just do it again than dick around with all that). As a result, my playing has suffered and I'd probably (almost certainly) fail Ivan's standards of 'groovability' ... but I might have passed 20 years ago!!

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post version



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ronnie Wibbley]
      #662492 - 01/10/08 05:58 AM
Quote Ronnie Wibbley:

Bloody Kraftwerk! Bloody Atari 1040s!

See what you've done? Do you???





it's done by machines , cause they don't make mistakes

--------------------
"A warning , with love and peace"


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662505 - 01/10/08 07:27 AM
let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.

But it still comes down to people knowing how to make it all breathe & live.

So - any of you listened to the file I posted last night care to make a comment?
Song was recorded in Louisiana using local (very talented admittedly) talent & is about par for the course in t3erms of feel.

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville at the same time as me and came back to the UK a bit before me said she was not interested in getting a band together to gig her material as she couldn`t find anyone that could play ensemble well enough.
*sigh*

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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Commander]
      #662526 - 01/10/08 08:07 AM
Quote Commander:

It's all about the groove man, all about the groove ...






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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ...................]
      #662541 - 01/10/08 09:10 AM
Quote Herewego:

It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.



From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris

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Somehow the future isn't what it used to be.
Mr Punch's Studio


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662546 - 01/10/08 09:33 AM
Sorry I am not very good at posting links - Zukan kindly just explained how so here is just one example of A groove.
Not the only one out there folks.
Don`t focus on whether or not you like the song, just listen to the players & how they work together.

http://www.deezer.com/track/blue-cajun-moon-T1730896

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #662547 - 01/10/08 09:33 AM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

Quote Herewego:

It's down to people playing live, (usually) with the more traditional instruments, so that musicians can teach each other the trade.



From a different world of music, I couldn't agree with you more. English trad. dance music is very functional - it's all about getting the feet moving, and there's nothing like playing for dancers for learning to get the drive into the music.

I uaed to worry about the English music scene, that we were all getting grey together, but there's quite a few kids coming through now, particularly fiddlers for some reason, and my God, can some of them groove!

Chris



Yeah - heard one or two tasty ones on Mike Hardins show.
and you`ll always have Dave Mattacks.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Shambolic Charm



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662552 - 01/10/08 09:51 AM
groove is great great, Bootsy Collins, funkadelic, motown etc ...but when it gets into the hands of erm certain 'engish' musos we get level 42, ABC, AWB and that dreadful scottish duo who's name escapes me. Please lets not return to those dark days!

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snipsnip



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: dubbmann]
      #662571 - 01/10/08 10:34 AM
Quote dubbmann:

i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.




I disagree with you in so many ways.


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jayzed
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662577 - 01/10/08 10:44 AM
I think there's a difference between rehersal and playing for an audience when it comes to getting a groove. Sort of like gambling for real money or for matchsticks.
I'm sure there are plenty of passionate musicians rehearsing every day but I don't see the venues where they play that often - many of the R&B artists we think of as having great groove worked on a loop through southern US cities in a constant touring schedule - that seems to be reserved for Bob Dylan and others of his generation these days. Maybe I just don't go out enough these days but I think there are several clubs for DJs, a couple of jazz clubs and a comedy club but no 'rock and roll' clubs in our area.


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Richie Royale



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662600 - 01/10/08 11:11 AM
Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.

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jayzed
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662602 - 01/10/08 11:13 AM
Good point. I'm not that brave, however.


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kenwyn



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662604 - 01/10/08 11:15 AM
This is a great post.

I remember going on a guitar course in GIT in London and doing the riddum guitar course. Before that I was a widdling little twat. Who couldnt get in a band. Then I got the groove. Oh yeah baby my balls finally dropped at 23 years old.

I am not saying a course is the answer, everyone finds their mojo in different ways, some people never find it...

I have more fun grooving one note for an hour than I have ever had playing super fast modal gaylord no soul widdles. Or static by the book riffs.

Static riffs and Widdling is like having sex on your own, doing a fat funky riddum is like being in a jacuzzi with a female beach volleyball team. Bubbles and booty all the way.

Much better for the audiance much better for getting members of the opposite sex. A beutiful woman appreciates a man with a strong grooved pounding sense of riddum.

Oh yeah baby

Forgive me for being honest everyone....

--------------------
www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico


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kenwyn



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richie Royale]
      #662605 - 01/10/08 11:16 AM
Quote Richie Royale:

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.




I think I just did

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Handlestash



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662606 - 01/10/08 11:16 AM
May I draw the gentlemen's attention to this clip posted earlier in the thread.
Observe the drummer.
That, my boys, is groove. Mmmmm...

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Edited by Handlestash (01/10/08 11:17 AM)


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Richie Royale



Joined: 12/09/06
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #662610 - 01/10/08 11:20 AM
Quote Handlestash:

May I draw the gentlemen's attention to this clip posted earlier in the thread.
Observe the drummer.
That, my boys, is groove. Mmmmm...




I'm on a work PC, so no YouTube for me.

Is the drummer Pretty Purdie?

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jayzed
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662612 - 01/10/08 11:21 AM
re the Bill Withers drummer...

you could drive a car through the gap between the '2' and when he hits that snare. Anticipation, beautiful.


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richie Royale]
      #662625 - 01/10/08 12:08 PM
Quote Richie Royale:

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.



If you have to ask, you don`t get it.
Period.
(even bigger grin)

Listen to the couple of things posted on here and then listen to that half-assed loop thing posted by another well-intentioned R`nB Reborn fan.
Now the difference between that & the Bill Withers/Eddie Raven stuff is what groove is about.

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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: snipsnip]
      #662626 - 01/10/08 12:11 PM
Quote snipsnip:

Quote dubbmann:

i lay the blame on the decline of motown and the rise of rap.




I disagree with you in so many ways.



Come on then - put your money where your mouth is.
A lot of posts on here either curious about "groove" or agreeing with my original post.
I would love to hear from someone who disagrees and can back it up.

Not that I would attribute the loss of groove in the UK to the deline of Motown.
Always thought Memphis & Philly did it better.

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Tui
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662636 - 01/10/08 12:20 PM
I guess what's happening to pop/rock today is what happened to jazz/big band in the 1970s: The initial excitement and anarchic energy has been used up. From now on, we'll probably see several generations of imitators, imitating imitators.

Let's face it, the subversive rock/pop music scene of the 60s-80s has been replaced by corporate-controlled karaoke shows and bands that tend to produce inconsequential, acoustic wallpaper. The shelf life of today's top artists is short, very few are capable of writing timeless, classic tunes.

Needless to say, there are still great players and song writers around, but trying to identify them is like looking for needles in haystacks. By and large, though, the zeitgeist has moved on, and widespread machine-worship is reflected in an endless stream of soulless, coarse, and repetitive music.


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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662661 - 01/10/08 01:19 PM
Quote IvanSC:

this is prolly OT but what the heck.
I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.

In the course of organising things, it occurred to me that he number of young players who can actually recognise a good groove, let alone create one is dwindling fast.

Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.




well ivan mate, if you're in london, and aren't going to play too often and you want serious badd-ass oldskool slap funk bass with kwality basslines... pm me

but your drummer had better be damned good cos half the problem with funk/groove stuff is often caused by drummers who cant keep their kickdrum pattern. They change their kick pattern to match the bass down-notes as soon as they hear your offbeat bassline and the pattern & groove all goes to [ ****** ].

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Richie Royale



Joined: 12/09/06
Posts: 4412
Loc: Bristol, England.
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662662 - 01/10/08 01:20 PM
Quote IvanSC:

Quote Richie Royale:

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.



If you have to ask, you don`t get it.
Period.
(even bigger grin)

Listen to the couple of things posted on here and then listen to that half-assed loop thing posted by another well-intentioned R`nB Reborn fan.
Now the difference between that & the Bill Withers/Eddie Raven stuff is what groove is about.




No, I know what my interpretation of what a groove is, but as the term is open to interpretation, I was hoping you would be able to define it more clearly.

Are we talking about the vigour in which people play their instruments or the ability to make a track that makes people dance (and I don't mean the foxtrot)? Are we discussing the subtle timing changes by the drummer that holds the track together or the additional notes a bassist puts in to liven up the bottom end?

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richie Royale]
      #662664 - 01/10/08 01:24 PM
Quote Richie Royale:

and I don't mean the foxtrot






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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Tui]
      #662670 - 01/10/08 01:29 PM
Quote Tui:

From now on, we'll probably see several generations of imitators, imitating imitators.





The UK music scene since the dance music of the 1930s through to the Beatles and Stones and through to Punk and Hip Hop has been founded on imitation.

Carbon copies, albeit with slight twists, of what's been going on in the US.

There are very few exceptions IMO.

ken

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Michael Dow



Joined: 28/08/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662680 - 01/10/08 01:42 PM
I dont see why people are slating the dubstep genre on here.

It's not "groovy" no. But it isn't meant to be. It's meant to be dark, heavy and atmospheric. Which it is.

Just because you dont understand how to dance to it or appreciate its subtlties doesnt mean it's a style that can't be danced to!

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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662693 - 01/10/08 02:04 PM
Quote IvanSC:


I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.


Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.




Great idea, do you want me to do the loops on a laptop or MPC.

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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662695 - 01/10/08 02:05 PM
Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)

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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662707 - 01/10/08 02:45 PM
Quote IvanSC:

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.

But it still comes down to people knowing how to make it all breathe & live.



Agreed. You can also make a good groove with a solidly (machine) sequenced rhythm by having good musos who can play 'around' the backing. Jam and Lewis were very good at this - basic kick and snare on machine but everything else played 'around' that

I always thought Go West were very good too. Here they are from recent gigs...

Call Me

And king of swing with machines is our Trevor of course and this is just sublimely groovalicious in my opinion:

Slave To The Rhythm

Quote IvanSC:

So - any of you listened to the file I posted last night care to make a comment?



It's excellent.

The thing is, Ivan, you have such a deep well to draw from when you start bringing Nashville musos and C&W into the equation because they are almost all of them excellent musos who know how to 'play' and play together.

And I share your sentiments about the loop-based example that was posted. If it has a groove, it's simply because it's an existing groove by an 'old master' that was copied and pasted and looped

Quote IvanSC:

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville at the same time as me and came back to the UK a bit before me said she was not interested in getting a band together to gig her material as she couldn`t find anyone that could play ensemble well enough.
*sigh*



They are around - just hard to find.

Maybe the trouble is that you and your friend were spoilt in Nashville where the emphasis is on good old-fashioned musicianship first and foremost - you don't last two minutes there solely on 'attitude' ... if you can't cut it there, you wait tables!!!

We have some great musos here who could do what you want ... it's just that they are wider spread and harder to find ... or busy and booked up already!

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ConcertinaChap



Joined: 20/07/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #662716 - 01/10/08 03:14 PM
Quote Ian Stewart:

Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)



Er, been to a good ceilidh recently?

Sorry, I'll get back in my hole.

Chris

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Ronnie Wibbley
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #662719 - 01/10/08 03:19 PM
Quote hollowsun:


And king of swing with machines is our Trevor of course and this is just sublimely groovalicious in my opinion:

Slave To The Rhythm




Ah yes... so in your opinion is the groove down to WASH THEM GO GO: William Ju Ju House (drums), Reginald Little Beats Daughtry (percussion) and Timothy Shorty Tim Glover (percussion), appearing courtesy of T.E.D.D. Records Inc....

or the sampler that he recorded them onto?


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Temp



Joined: 25/04/05
Posts: 234
Loc: Rochester, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662724 - 01/10/08 03:28 PM
When I personally talk of a groove I'm referring to a certain cool economy with jazz-tinted music. Impro ( or at least the impression of impro) often plays a heavy role too. It's a certain lilt/genre that's very hard to describe. Soul man, slow disco, you know, funky. Haiku for the discotheque if you will. Definitely dance-orientated.

For me, with regards to groove-based orchestration and arrangements, it's often pared down to a few interwoven hooks featuring rhodes, hammond, vibes, guitar, simple but catchy basslines, a touch of brass, close black harmonies and tight drums.

In a more up-to-date context, I'm feeling Daft Punk's groove.

For a primer, here's JB with a chunky 10 minutes:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tDMfaFyW_EU

Note the ever-changing slight variations - it's essentially a jam session.

And as for this track by Dizzy, well, it infected my music ever after with a certain porn tweeness:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MIlPM0cxqnk

Check out the synth at 1:25, comedy man.

Some more for you, Aaron Neville with Hercules:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ySmdF1hTLS0

Classic JBs with Gimme Some More:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=V8-4osSHkJc

Being a nostalgic 70s kid, I admit to this being a wholly subjective and somewhat genre-tied interpretation of what constitutes a groove. As Ivan's track displays, we all have quite different but nonetheless valid ideas of what it actually means in practice.

Look around the dancefloor when a funk/rare groove track comes on. Most folks' bodies/heads bob down on the beat, groovers go up. Perhaps it's genetic...

Cheers.

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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: John Willett]
      #662731 - 01/10/08 03:40 PM
Quote John Willett:

I thought the groove went out with the vinyl record.

Its just pits in plastic nowadays.






So will the old phrase "in the groove" now be replaced by "in the pits"?

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Spangler



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662781 - 01/10/08 05:19 PM
As a bass player, groove to me is when it feels like I'm plucking the kick drum.

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #662817 - 01/10/08 07:09 PM
Quote Ian Stewart:

Quote IvanSC:


I am in the middle of considering putting a band together to play fun stuff at little no-count gigs for hardly any money, since this seems to be the only way to play what you want to play.


Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.




Great idea, do you want me to do the loops on a laptop or MPC.







--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richie Royale]
      #662822 - 01/10/08 07:29 PM
Quote Richie Royale:

Quote IvanSC:

Quote Richie Royale:

Can somebody define "groove" in relation to this thread please.



If you have to ask, you don`t get it.
Period.
(even bigger grin)

Listen to the couple of things posted on here and then listen to that half-assed loop thing posted by another well-intentioned R`nB Reborn fan.
Now the difference between that & the Bill Withers/Eddie Raven stuff is what groove is about.




No, I know what my interpretation of what a groove is, but as the term is open to interpretation, I was hoping you would be able to define it more clearly.

Are we talking about the vigour in which people play their instruments or the ability to make a track that makes people dance (and I don't mean the foxtrot)? Are we discussing the subtle timing changes by the drummer that holds the track together or the additional notes a bassist puts in to liven up the bottom end?




Quite simply put, I can only reiterate what I said before.
When you`re getting it, you`ll know.

There will be not even the slightest shadow of doubt in your mind when you really hit a groove.

Best feeling in the world but the worst feeling in the world when it is close but you don`t quite get there.

It`s a distillation of all the little nuances of playing with others that suddenly create magic.

Good musicians respond to it by creating something that is more than the sum of the parts of those involved, punters with the ears and soul to appreciate it, get down on it.

The really is no way to quantify it, but it has nothing much to do with age or experience.
It just happens or it doesn`t.

When I was young I worked with only two drummers who made it feel like there was only one of us.
Later I learned to recreate that feeling to an extent through using my ears and my own sensitivity to other`s musical direction, but even then it doesn`t always work out.

A lot of African (particularly west african) music seems to reach that collective high a lot easier than europeans do.
Not sure why.
Maybe because they see music as a shared experience more than we do.
Not many ways to be a bedroom drummer....

Sorry if this still doesn`1t get over what I feel is missing so much nowadays, but after having nearly convinced myelf that valve amps DIDNT sound as great as I remembered them in my youth and then building a copy of an old one that did, I`m sticking to my guns on this one.

Less and less young players know how to hold down a groove.

Check ou tosme of the old rockabilly and western swing acts - they still groove like crazy for the most part.

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Michael Dow]
      #662835 - 01/10/08 08:14 PM
Quote Michael Dow:

I dont see why people are slating the dubstep genre on here.

It's not "groovy" no. But it isn't meant to be. It's meant to be dark, heavy and atmospheric. Which it is.

Just because you dont understand how to dance to it or appreciate its subtlties doesnt mean it's a style that can't be danced to!




I for one haven`t a clue what dubstep is.

Similar to a Twostep or a Quickstep?
(grin)
But for what it is worth if people struggle to dance to it, there`s something wrong with the music, not the people.

Not all music is innately suitable for dancing but if it`s for dancing and it don`t groove, it`s just that much harder to dance to.
God I hope nobody mentions Dance Music.

*sigh*


Hang on a mo - I just went all over this thread looking for where someone slagged off your dubstep.

Not a sign of the word "dubstep" till you accused someone of slagging it off.

Are you in the wrong thread, Michael?

Or did I nod off at a crucial moment again?

Nearly my bedtime.

Edited by IvanSC (01/10/08 08:20 PM)


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662846 - 01/10/08 09:02 PM
Ha Ivan!

Great reading as always.

I won't go into dance music seeing as you believe disco decimated some corner of the 70s music market.

I think you are spot on in some respects but a little disparaging when it comes to contemporary music and what makes the kids groove nowadays. And that's OK. You're always reminding people that you're an older gentleman so its OK for you to feel that way. I am not as old as you are but I grew up on a diet of Disco, Philly Soul (Gamble and Huff) followed it through to Boogie (Change, Chic) to House Music (although not as much ) and to the current state its in. I too don't like the newer model and prefer the old one. But I appreciate the newer stuff because I know kids like it and kids buy the records (OK maybe less here than in the US).

The groove is subjective. What makes an old timer like you move, doesn't make a kid from Clapton move in the same way.

I don't mean any disprespect of course.

ken

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Ben



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662852 - 01/10/08 09:22 PM
Quote IvanSC:

if people struggle to dance to it, there`s something wrong with the music




You haven't been to the weddings I have.


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662865 - 01/10/08 09:57 PM
Quote IvanSC:


A lot of African (particularly west african) music seems to reach that collective high a lot easier than europeans do.
Not sure why.





... because they're not taught that the only beats that really 'matter' are 1.2.3.4... when music is being played anywhere in Africa you'll see little kids banging away on anything close at hand, and very often across the beat, playing 3 over 4, or sometimes in patterns that don't seem, initially, to have anything to do with the main rhythm. Nobody tells them they're 'wrong' or that the only place to hit the damn thing is on the downbeat. Very often the most natural place they choose to pick up on is the offbeat, not any kind of downbeat. This means you get generations of musicians who are perfectly happy stretching and pushing the 'strict' definition of whatever the rhythm is 'supposed' to be all over the place. When I first played African music I was always told 'no-play just before [or just after] where you're playing now'- the available 'places' between beats where it was perfectly appropriate to play were far, far wider than in any other music I'd played before. It was a real education.

It's that that makes so much African music 'up', and so much 'white' music 'down'. If you concentrate all the energy into the downbeat (ie, 4 to the floor music) without a corresponding energy into the offbeat, it's like piledrivers into the brain (and speaking purely personally, [ ****** ] boring) Slap a 3,5,6, or even 7 rhythm across a 4 and immediately you'll get all kinds of interesting polyrhythms going on that just make the body wiggle. It's just a whole lot more fun.

.... and it's [ ****** ] groovy.

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tomafd



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ben]
      #662867 - 01/10/08 10:02 PM
Quote Ben:

Quote IvanSC:

if people struggle to dance to it, there`s something wrong with the music




You haven't been to the weddings I have.




You may like to review the previous comments about Caucasians... or maybe it's just the English. Or maybe just English males. Especially if they're wearing suits. And definitely when they're wearing tails...

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662876 - 01/10/08 10:22 PM
tomafd - love it!

I think your point about 1-2-3-4 has featured in more of my posts on here than just about any other complaint I have about UK musicians.

It isnt so much as I "dance to the beat of a different drummer" as it were. more that I think sampled rhythm sections and sequencing have led to a huge turn down in the amount of naturally expressed music there is out there.
It`s not easy to create a groove when James Brown`s drummer laid down the feel for you 40 years ago.
I hate to just throw out a blanket "non-british music" categorisation of where most of the real "feel" tracks are nowadays adn equally was at pains to not post a typical "funky" track as my example.
Find me some hip hop that honestly has a good original feel and I`ll begetting down with all the rest even at my advanced age.
FWIW the same thing has happened on the UK Country scene.
All that is out there is soulless rubbish.
Maybe we should all stick to indigenous ethnic British music.
(cue bagpipes and lutes)
Wish I could invite you all round to my place to try and SHOW you what I am on about.
Very frustrating at present.

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662879 - 01/10/08 10:26 PM
Used to be I only needed someone to tell me what diddy-wah-diddy meant.
Now I need someone to tell me about dubstep too.

Have all you lazy young gits gone to bed already?
I`ve had my horlicks and I`m ready to (t)roll.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662886 - 01/10/08 10:38 PM
Quote IvanSC:

Used to be I only needed someone to tell me what diddy-wah-diddy meant.
Now I need someone to tell me about dubstep too.

Have all you lazy young gits gone to bed already?
I`ve had my horlicks and I`m ready to (t)roll.




Evening Ivan... FWIW, if you have a look back to the earlier part of this thread you will find a somewhat sarky comment from myself about dubstep, so it's all my fault... though it was also a little tongue in cheek, 'cos actually I quite like the stuff- or like it more than a lot of newer genres. It's just that it's not really much good to dance to... but then I am in my dotage, compared to those who make it.

Basically- it's drum n bass, of a sort, though the tempo is usually a tad slower, and the beats more broken up. Often features a 'wobbly' synth bass with what sounds like a quick LFO sinewave modulation slapped into the filter now and then. Lots of vaguely atonal slabs of sound flying around, and generally 'edgy', 'moody', and appropriate for serious young men being ... serious. Slap 'dubstep' into the youtube search box and you'll find plenty.

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662894 - 01/10/08 11:11 PM
Quote IvanSC:


Find me some hip hop that honestly has a good original feel and I`ll begetting down with all the rest even at my advanced age.





I like DJ Premier . Well into his forties!!

Not your typical rock or country arrangement for sure! But then its Black American music in the tradition of Jazz and Blues... and its very successful both in sales figures and cultural influence.

And Premier has groove. Fo sho.

ken



ken

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jellyjim
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662917 - 02/10/08 01:27 AM
it's the downside of the democratisation of the means of production init?

whilst more people have access to the tools to create music many of which automate hitherto manual skills, the number of people putting the hours in to become even half decent musicians let alone good ones is still the same .. not many in other words

i mean come on, computer based music, it's all got a bit out of hand hasn't it?! i saw some soft synth the other day, it's got like 12,000 presets!!!!!!

i'm not suggesting we go backwards, you've just got to educate people as to what music actually is

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jellyjim
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662919 - 02/10/08 01:34 AM
i played my friend's little daughter some random bleepy electronica (which i quite like) and asked her what it sounded like

she's quite a bright and quirky child, she replied

"it sounds like the internet"

i found that quite an unsettling comment somehow!

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #662930 - 02/10/08 05:46 AM
Quote tomafd:

Quote IvanSC:

Used to be I only needed someone to tell me what diddy-wah-diddy meant.
Now I need someone to tell me about dubstep too.

Have all you lazy young gits gone to bed already?
I`ve had my horlicks and I`m ready to (t)roll.




Evening Ivan... FWIW, if you have a look back to the earlier part of this thread you will find a somewhat sarky comment from myself about dubstep, so it's all my fault... though it was also a little tongue in cheek, 'cos actually I quite like the stuff- or like it more than a lot of newer genres. It's just that it's not really much good to dance to... but then I am in my dotage, compared to those who make it.

Basically- it's drum n bass, of a sort, though the tempo is usually a tad slower, and the beats more broken up. Often features a 'wobbly' synth bass with what sounds like a quick LFO sinewave modulation slapped into the filter now and then. Lots of vaguely atonal slabs of sound flying around, and generally 'edgy', 'moody', and appropriate for serious young men being ... serious. Slap 'dubstep' into the youtube search box and you'll find plenty.




I`ll go have a look/listen then - also to the example of "modern stuff that boogies" posted after you.
DJ somebody and er Premier.
Maybe we should retitle the thread "in search of the lost groove"?
I sort of agree about the effect of technology and the sea of poo-poo (god I hate having to call a spade a gardening implement) we seem to be floating in right now.
Perhaps it really is just down to the level of musicianship, but harking back a little, I doubt if all those African Tribesmen are accomplished "professional" percussionists.
Still comes down to feel and sensibility I suppose.

New retirement project perhaps.
Uncle Ivan`s House of Groove - (c)Jan Pulsford - residential course in bootie shaking and getting down held in the tranquil breton countryside.
Bring yer own bag.

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onesecondglance



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662945 - 02/10/08 07:24 AM
with no regard to anything except the dubstep comment - i wouldn't say it's actually much to do with drum and bass. it may have come from the same community and uses breakbeats, but it's much more like a collision of dub and garage than ye olde techstep.

Ivan - you are fully within your rights to go "whaaaaaaa" to this post.

btw... what are your thoughts on groove metal? does it "groove" or not? (example...)

EDIT: i feel i should point out that the video i've linked to is ruddy hilarious... i'm sure they looked very tough back in the nineties

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Edited by onesecondglance (02/10/08 07:26 AM)


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662964 - 02/10/08 08:24 AM
Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.

The hair bear bunch might well be laying down a great groove but 2 things stop it being evident.
The soundtrack to the video has been sliced and diced so many places even if there WAS a groove it has disappeared under all that creative editing.
And DB`s guitar just washes over everything till you can`t hear what the bass player is doing at all.
Just a big blurry subterranean rumble to the point where you don`t know if he is hitting the groove or not.
Even on my main studio monitors.

Put some ACDC stuff up there.
They know how to hit a groove, grab it by the neck and shake it.

I`ve heard Neil Diamond get closer to rockin` it with a pit band than this lot.

I could cry with frustration at just how much so many of you are NOT getting it.

Go listen to Larry Blackmon/Cameo for some recent, manufactured MOBO that still grooves like crazy.

Beginning to think the Prodigy would be a better modern-ish example of something that comes close.

Losing the will to live here, guys.

P.S. I didnt like Gnora Bjones much either but as you say the guys she was working with had fun.

(pause for tea)

Oh well - just went and youtubed up a bunch of dubstep & far from being subtle, sohpisticated, not easy to dance to, etc it just sounds like a dumbed down version of real dub.

Remember?

That stuff with all the echoes that came out of reggae a few years back?

Spent a short while in Jamaica in the eighties and they have it.

Groove.

Maybe its just down to age and experience but everything I hear being heralded as new and exciting & "the old can`t understand it" turns out to be a watered down version of something done earlier but then given its own whole sub-genre of music.
"It`s Acid trash house garbage Goan Indie trip hop ennit?"

For gods sake someone SHOW me something!

If I ever figure out translating vinyl onto mp3 I am going to up load some 1950`s west african stuff that will have you all crying because it sounds so effortless and you lot CAN`T DO IT.
DON`T GET IT

Even Elvis`s early stuff had a decent groove to it.



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Edited by IvanSC (02/10/08 08:39 AM)


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Handlestash



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662967 - 02/10/08 08:32 AM
You're a big cuddly bear Ivan. Yes you are, Yes you are...

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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662968 - 02/10/08 08:33 AM
Quote IvanSC:

The hair bear bunch might well be laying down a great groove but 2 things stop it being evidfent.
The soundtrack to the video has been sliced and diced so many places even if there WAS a groove it has disappeared under all that creative editing.
And DB`s guitar just washes over everything till you can`t hear what the bass player is doing at all.
Even on my main studio monitors.




well, it is taken from youtube!

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662976 - 02/10/08 08:43 AM
1 2nd glance.
youtube didnt put all those pauses in there.
Mind you the pauses were in the right pace and of course tight because the band didnt actually play it like that, irt was cut like that.
Amazed the band pout up with it.
The bits where they are playing unedited sounds like it was pretty good, apart from the bass slurry & that ain`t the players fault..

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #662979 - 02/10/08 08:44 AM
Quote Handlestash:

You're a big cuddly bear Ivan. Yes you are, Yes you are...





You calling me FAT?


As a small aside, I sincerely hope that all of you reading and participating in this thread are aware of my somewhat warped sense of humor and know I am not really getting ticked off about this.
But there is much more than a grain of truth in what I`m saying.

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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #662997 - 02/10/08 09:10 AM
Quote IvanSC:

1 2nd glance.
youtube didnt put all those pauses in there.
Mind you the pauses were in the right pace and of course tight because the band didnt actually play it like that, irt was cut like that.
Amazed the band pout up with it.
The bits where they are playing unedited sounds like it was pretty good, apart from the bass slurry & that ain`t the players fault..

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.




i was talking about the general sound quality... but anyway, that would be a "no", you don't think "groove metal" grooves much...

i do sympathise with you; there's not a lot of stuff out there with a *real* groove to it. but it's like shouting at the tide for coming in too fast... ("dammit sea, you're supposed to be behind the beat!")

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #663001 - 02/10/08 09:14 AM
Quote onesecondglance:

Quote IvanSC:

1 2nd glance.
youtube didnt put all those pauses in there.
Mind you the pauses were in the right pace and of course tight because the band didnt actually play it like that, irt was cut like that.
Amazed the band pout up with it.
The bits where they are playing unedited sounds like it was pretty good, apart from the bass slurry & that ain`t the players fault..

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.




i was talking about the general sound quality... but anyway, that would be a "no", you don't think "groove metal" grooves much...

i do sympathise with you; there's not a lot of stuff out there with a *real* groove to it. but it's like shouting at the tide for coming in too fast... ("dammit sea, you're supposed to be behind the beat!")




NBot at all. I just couldn`t hear enough of what the band were actually playing rather than what some [ ****** ] producer had decided to do to the track to tell.
It`s a conspiracy led by skinny blokes with iMacs and a good line in bullsh1t

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thenaturallevel



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663003 - 02/10/08 09:19 AM
Quote IvanSC:

Quote onesecondglance:

Quote IvanSC:


It`s a conspiracy led by skinny blokes with iMacs and a good line in bullsh1t




lol


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663004 - 02/10/08 09:23 AM
Quote IvanSC:

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.




yes, but then you are positively contributing to the lives of others by keeping such an entertaining thread going (keep telling yourself that, it's as good an excuse as any other)...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #663010 - 02/10/08 09:35 AM
Quote onesecondglance:

Quote IvanSC:

Damn this thread is taking over my life.
I need to do some work.




yes, but then you are positively contributing to the lives of others by keeping such an entertaining thread going (keep telling yourself that, it's as good an excuse as any other)...




I always feel guilty for contributing to, or indeed starting, threads like this (friday threads as I think of them) because I'm not a gear head so I rarely contribute to the more 'serious' threads.

Now, back to business. For some groovey Metal you can't beat Rage. Their renegades covers record has a very sexy groove (despite Rick Rubin's brick wall mastering)

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663057 - 02/10/08 11:42 AM
only found unbutton my oops sorry LORD of the flies and open up my grave.

Flies left me cold.

Grave is remarkable in that there are far fewer producerly holes/gating, plus you can actually hear what everyone is going.

Once it gets past the "aren`t we clever" bit at the beginning, it certainly trucks along just fine.
But again the guys have obviously taken time to get it right.
I`m left cold by the music but salute the recording and the playing.
Are they Yanks or Germans?
Suppose they could be dutch.......... Nah.

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Dr Whom



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663079 - 02/10/08 12:13 PM
Quote Ian Stewart:

Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)




ha!.. actually my brother in law cant dance for toffee, and he ain't Caucasian

he did fight Lloyd Hunnigan once tho so it's not that he doesnt have good footwork, he just doesnt 'do dancing'



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ken long



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663083 - 02/10/08 12:19 PM
Quote IvanSC:

Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.






Ha ha Ivan. Love reading your posts but you definitely are very disparaging. Sometimes, a loose timing is groovy. And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .

If Premier is no good, then how come he's platinum?

Keep it up mate

ken

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britney
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663085 - 02/10/08 12:24 PM
Quote IvanSC:

let`s not forget that it is possible to alter tempo within a sequence, plus a bit of light & shade in velocity can make all the difference.



Quantise is my enemy, but I wouldn't alter the tempo in a dance track. Feel goes round and round. It's far easier to move the individual hits than [ ****** ] with the tempo. One thing that is always overlooked in this debate is that those groovy old guys were all trying there god damnedest to play like machines would if only they had machines that could do that back then. But all in the pocket, of course. The more solid the tempo stays, when playing live, the easier it is for all the players to sit in their individual pocket. Which is the basis for a good groove. And which pocket moves up and down on the bar, the 2 bar phrase and also the structure. I lost count of the drummers who love to sit in front of my laid back groove but speed up when I get up on the beat for my bass fills.

The bloke blaming it all on hip hop, I can only assume he struck his pose way back and never listened to modern American black music ever since. So muck R&B and hip hop nowadays is played live for producers who are not afraid to use all the technology at their disposal. Including looping and sampling. Those are probably the only current pop genres where chops are still a valued tool. Check the Neptunes for one end of that equation and the Roots for the other. With Dr Dre in the commercial middle.

If I had to blame a genre, I'd blame punk rock for devaluing chops in the first place. And indie rock for keeping the originality over skills attitude alive thru all these years. No wonder people turn to hard quantised psy trance or electo house when the alternative is some aimless twirling to the earnest offerings of some shoe-gazing op-shop types.

Or is that a bit harsh? My keyboard gets away on me sometimes.

Quote:

Friend of mine who worked in Nashville



Speaking of pockets. Good country music can be as funky as anything James Brown has done, in a white boy kind of way. Plus the lyrics tend to be a lot more grown up. Too bad it's commercial face has been overrun by all those crossover pop artists.

--------------------
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Yago
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663097 - 02/10/08 12:37 PM
I think I know what you are getting at Ivan , but I am not too familiar with the "youth" type bands , and tend to look back in time for my groovy stuff EG. Cameo , Cymande , Funkadelic , Yargo (not me , the Manchester band!)

I have heard some nice stuff from Air that is more laid back and lets some groove go (I am not a fan of band so only vaguely know a tune or two)
Air


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hollowsun



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: britney]
      #663109 - 02/10/08 01:04 PM
Oh sweet Lord... something is VERY wrong with the time/space continuum here ....

Because I actually agree with almost everything Britney says - that has GOT to be a first!!!

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee ... and are happy to admit that. Sure - they can build collages from loops and I've seen some 'wiki-wik' a turntable with some degree of skill (even though it all sounds the bloody same to me) but they couldn't play or establish a groove themselves - they have to 'borrow' them.

And country music can be WELL groovy and can be rockier than foot to the floor metal!!! A much-derided genre (and MUCH bigger a genre than hip-hop and other dance genres collectively by a substantially large factor).

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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #663146 - 02/10/08 01:57 PM
Quote hollowsun:


And country music can be WELL groovy and can be rockier than foot to the floor metal!!! A much-derided genre (and MUCH bigger a genre than hip-hop and other dance genres collectively by a substantially large factor).




Yeah, but they wear cheesecloth shirts and having a dude with a long beard, mega belly and dungarees moonwalking to a shaker just doesn't really look cool to me.

Groove is all about hair.

You gotta have the right hair to be funky.

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tomafd



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Zukan]
      #663152 - 02/10/08 02:01 PM
Quote Zukan:



You gotta have the right hair to be funky.




Would that be the afro sported by Bill Wither's drummer, then ?

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663161 - 02/10/08 02:23 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote IvanSC:

Oh dear - the gulf widens....

DJ Premiere - the guy can`t even get his samples timed close enough to where they should be, let alone get a groove going.
Do you guys have no sense of time at all?
Time is not an opinion, its a fact.
This is so lame I dont even know where to start.
You could at least have chosen something from the genre that was somewhere close to rockin`.






Ha ha Ivan. Love reading your posts but you definitely are very disparaging. Sometimes, a loose timing is groovy. And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .

If Premier is no good, then how come he's platinum?

Keep it up mate

ken



beccause folks don`t know any better, as usual.
There`s loose timing and then there is loose timing.

I am not disparaging, I`m telling it like it is.

I dont want to show my ass, but I have played with some good people over the years and there are still plenty of good people around.
Old and young.
Problem is as I said people don`t know enough to know that.
If you seriously think that DJ Premier has some hot stuff, you are truly deluded, son.
I have heard people who can make an Mpc and decks, etc., scream but he ain`t one of them.

Go back and listen to your posted example and follow what is happening.
There are places wher it IS together for quite lengthy spells (4 or 5 bars) which to me just says the man can`t hack it, not that he did it deliberately.

Now I am not talking about half a beat out here, just the little piece that turns a piece of music into a three legged race.
Or if you like, a milking stool.

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Richard Graham



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663163 - 02/10/08 02:26 PM
This thread is stuffed full of gratitious generalisations, ranging from 'White people can't dance' to 'Hip hop musicians can't play' to 'Punk/Techno/R&B killed musicianship'. While there may be a grain of truth in any number of generalisations, it's a little bit akin to a stopped clock being right twice a day, or firing a shotgun at a barn door and claiming to have hit something!

For some reason though, I'm just as happy not to get into a detailed debate about most of these points. Two that I can't pass on though, are these:

Quote Tui:

I guess what's happening to pop/rock today is what happened to jazz/big band in the 1970s: The initial excitement and anarchic energy has been used up.




You what? My favourite jazz is from the 70s and for my money has more excitement and anarchic energy than anything before or since. I speak of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, and especially, Billy Cobham's solo stuff.

Quote Ken Long:

Quote Tui:

From now on, we'll probably see several generations of imitators, imitating imitators.





The UK music scene since the dance music of the 1930s through to the Beatles and Stones and through to Punk and Hip Hop has been founded on imitation.

Carbon copies, albeit with slight twists, of what's been going on in the US.

There are very few exceptions IMO.ken




What about prog rock and metal throughout the 70s and early 80s? Pink Floyd was a carbon copy of whom? Iron Maiden and Motorhead, carbon copies? Slayer are on record as being inspired by Maiden, and the number of metal bands (including American bands) namechecking Black Sabbath must be countless.

As for the Beatles, I'd love to hear the band the Beatles were 'carbon-copying' when they did the White Album or Revolver!




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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663164 - 02/10/08 02:28 PM
Quote Ken Long:

And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .


ken




That's not quite it. One of the few downsides of getting older (apart from slowly falling apart...) is that you find out that you've heard one hell of a lot of music, over the years, so when anything 'new' pops up you can usually spot where it comes from, and usually- it's just not as good as the original, or, when it's a blend of different genres, it doesn't work as well as either of it's progenitors. There seems to be some kind of inevitable watering-down process going on. Very, very rarely, something will turn up that is a definite improvement on previous work or really does produce something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting.

However much you may knock them, a very good example of that was the Beatles' first few albums, which married a whole lot of different influences into a genuinely new form- but it didn't sound like a forced marriage, it sounded totally natural. Lennon did some very interesting things with chords and melodies that no-one had done before, and which a lot of folk have been copying ever since.

The big difference between previous generations and today is that if musicians did want to try new things, they had no choice but to actually play their instruments, to do it- and so often, the new interesting stuff happened because they couldn't actually do what they were trying to do, and ended up doing something different, and just as interesting- and original- instead.

Now the game seems to be simply pillaging old recordings and then bending those recordings until you think you've got something you think is 'new'- (and, so often, announcing a new 'genre' (yet another new genre))- when all you've got is a very slight variation on an existing form... which probably isn't that interesting, in itself.

While there are, occasionally, individuals working in new electronic genres whose productions are immediately recognizable from the first bar- they do seem to be very few. Maybe that's not the point, and maybe the point is to produce yet another faceless dance tune (whatever the genre) that just sounds like any other faceless dance tune.

... but i can't see how that's 'thinking outside the box'. More like keeping the box firmly on your head, to me. And it's that that pisses off us oldsters. We're desperate to hear something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting, from you youngsters- but most of the time, we don't hear it. We just hear where you nicked it from.

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !

--------------------
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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Zukan]
      #663166 - 02/10/08 02:32 PM
Quote Zukan:



Yeah, but they wear cheesecloth shirts and having a dude with a long beard, mega belly and dungarees moonwalking to a shaker just doesn't really look cool to me.

Groove is all about hair.

You gotta have the right hair to be funky.




Have you been at my photo album again, Zuke?
Actually the UK country folks are hilarious. All boots `n buckles and Nudie shirts.
BIt like going to Dallas in 1972.
Oh and replica cap guns!

Worst part? That`s the audience!

A friend of mine just posted a comment from shall we say a less than committed (or comittable) fan.
There`s only two sorts of people who wear stetsons.
Cowboys and A$$holes.
He also said he and his partner had decided to quit wearing theirs even on country gigs.
Incidentally, he and I are sort of thinking about starting an old folks boogie band up to show you young muppets how to do it properly.
Hah!
My money will, as always, be right where my mouth is.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663167 - 02/10/08 02:34 PM
Quote IvanSC:


I am not disparaging, I`m telling it like it is.




No you are giving your opinion. There really is no right or wrong here.

Quote:

I dont want to show my ass, but I have played with some good people over the years and there are still plenty of good people around.




Please don't show your ass. Yes, I'm aware of your experience. I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

Quote:

If you seriously think that DJ Premier has some hot stuff, you are truly deluded, son.
I have heard people who can make an Mpc and decks, etc., scream but he ain`t one of them.




If you don't think so, that's fine. But be aware that he's one of the most in-demand remixers in the US. He must be doing somehting right? Oh and I'm not deluded. Just open-minded .

Quote:

Go back and listen to your posted example and follow what is happening.
There are places wher it IS together for quite lengthy spells (4 or 5 bars) which to me just says the man can`t hack it, not that he did it deliberately.




I can't say I agree there either. He is doing it deliberately and I think that those instances where it sounds "off" are intended. Listen to anything else by him and you will see what I mean.

Quote:

Now I am not talking about half a beat out here, just the little piece that turns a piece of music into a three legged race.
Or if you like, a milking stool.




Now that's funny!



ken

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Tui
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Joined: 02/09/02
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663169 - 02/10/08 02:35 PM
If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663170 - 02/10/08 02:38 PM
Quote tomafd:

Quote Ken Long:

And sometimes old folk can't (or won't) accept thinking out of the box .


ken




That's not quite it. One of the few downsides of getting older (apart from slowly falling apart...) is that you find out that you've heard one hell of a lot of music, over the years, so when anything 'new' pops up you can usually spot where it comes from, and usually- it's just not as good as the original, or, when it's a blend of different genres, it doesn't work as well as either of it's progenitors. There seems to be some kind of inevitable watering-down process going on. Very, very rarely, something will turn up that is a definite improvement on previous work or really does produce something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting.

However much you may knock them, a very good example of that was the Beatles' first few albums, which married a whole lot of different influences into a genuinely new form- but it didn't sound like a forced marriage, it sounded totally natural. Lennon did some very interesting things with chords and melodies that no-one had done before, and which a lot of folk have been copying ever since.

The big difference between previous generations and today is that if musicians did want to try new things, they had no choice but to actually play their instruments, to do it- and so often, the new interesting stuff happened because they couldn't actually do what they were trying to do, and ended up doing something different, and just as interesting- and original- instead.

Now the game seems to be simply pillaging old recordings and then bending those recordings until you think you've got something you think is 'new'- (and, so often, announcing a new 'genre' (yet another new genre))- when all you've got is a very slight variation on an existing form... which probably isn't that interesting, in itself.

While there are, occasionally, individuals working in new electronic genres whose productions are immediately recognizable from the first bar- they do seem to be very few. Maybe that's not the point, and maybe the point is to produce yet another faceless dance tune (whatever the genre) that just sounds like any other faceless dance tune.

... but i can't see how that's 'thinking outside the box'. More like keeping the box firmly on your head, to me. And it's that that pisses off us oldsters. We're desperate to hear something genuinely new, and genuinely interesting, from you youngsters- but most of the time, we don't hear it. We just hear where you nicked it from.

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !




Wot `ee said.

and Pink Floyd were after the acid bands from san francisco.

mind you it did all sort of come together acroos the whole world at that time as I remember.
But it WAS the sixties so who knows how reliable my memory is.
The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)
And remember Dave G was doing Beach Boys covers a scant year or so before he joined Pink Floyd.
Rog Barratt`s band was doing drifters and coasters covers!
I was playing blues and r `n b at the time.
In fact I was playing it in about 1963 come to think of it.
Must have been - the band was called Johhny "R `n B" Phillips and the Hi Fi`s.
Cheeeeesy!

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Tui]
      #663171 - 02/10/08 02:41 PM
Quote Tui:

If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.




Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?

--------------------
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http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663174 - 02/10/08 02:46 PM
Quote Ken Long:

I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

ken





You can if you actually have any new tricks to teach.


The day I stop learning something new in music or getting surprised by it, is the day I`ll quit playing.

As for doing it deliberately, I guess that makes my case. He`s DELIBERATELY messing up a perfectly acceptable groove?
And of course once again what he is really doing is shuffling recordings of musicians playing instruments then cutting & pasting.

It is perfectly possible to make great music with samples etc but not if you just slap a bunch of loops which contain your basic rhythmic feel together and call it art or music or whatever.

For me the human element is what makes or breaks a groove and so long as you are relying on a machine for any element of the timing the only way you are ever going to make a piece groove is if it is un-mechanised by human players with good feel.

FWIW I use drum samples a lot. But when I`m live they get played on an electronic kit by my drummer and when I am working in the studio they get tapped or programmed in by me to fit the groove I am creating at the time.
And IF I had room I`d have a real drummer every time.

--------------------
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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: uk
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663175 - 02/10/08 02:49 PM
Quote IvanSC:



The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)





"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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The Elf
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 9834
Loc: Sheffield, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663179 - 02/10/08 02:59 PM
Quote tomafd:

Quote IvanSC:



The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)





"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.



The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...

What's wrong with prog anyway?!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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Tui
active member


Joined: 02/09/02
Posts: 3309
Loc: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #663180 - 02/10/08 03:10 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote Tui:

If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.




Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?




Are you asking for my opinion? Here goes:

Belle & Sebastian - Competent performers, yet strangely derivative music, reminiscent of the 60s. The groove isn't helped by drums that are too prominent in the mix (I've only listened to two tracks, mind).

Queens of the Stone Age - Not my cup of tea, but it's obvious where they've got their ideas from... Listen to Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, UFO, The Sweet (oh yes! ).

Contemporary rock is just so boring, I'm sorry to say. I'm used to hearing great tunes AND great performances - at the same time. Check out, for starters, Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant. Now, that's music.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: The Elf]
      #663183 - 02/10/08 03:15 PM
Quote The Elf:

The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...





There are tracks from that and other Yes albums available as karaoke tracks in Japan!!

Quote The Elf:

What's wrong with prog anyway?!



Quite. Like everything, there's good and bad prog but I'll tell you what...

They may be a bunch of ageing old duffers (and arguably not prog anymore) but Genesis are as tight as a gnat's chuffer live and can kick the arses of almost any of the bright young things on the circuit today!!

I've heard some records by youthful bands on the wireless that really appeal to me ... and then I've had the misfortune to see them play it live. What a load of shambolic kack! Lots of posturing and attitude on-stage but seemingly no ability to kick it!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663184 - 02/10/08 03:18 PM
Quote tomafd:

So.... try

1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.

I bet that'll be interesting !




the first rule of groove club is... oh wait, tomafd just posted the first five

you know what would be more impressive than creating a groove by following those instructions? creating a groove IGNORING all those instructions... now that would be skill.

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #663186 - 02/10/08 03:19 PM
Quote Richard Graham:



What about prog rock and metal throughout the 70s and early 80s? Pink Floyd was a carbon copy of whom? Iron Maiden and Motorhead, carbon copies? Slayer are on record as being inspired by Maiden, and the number of metal bands (including American bands) namechecking Black Sabbath must be countless.

As for the Beatles, I'd love to hear the band the Beatles were 'carbon-copying' when they did the White Album or Revolver!







OK. Carbon copy was a strong expression. I'll give you that. But The Beatles early stuff was based on Black American rnr (including a shedload of covers). The later stuff influenced by psychoactive drugs no doubt but there was a hella of competition between what was being achieved in the studio in the UK and in LA with the Beach Boys for instance - one trying to outdo the other and I wouldn't attribute their 'psychedelic sound' to anything they picked up growing up in Liverpool. Rather an ammalgamation of their experiences abroad.

I don't know where Maiden fits in so I'll grant you that too . But Sabbath, again, based on blues and rock - albeit with very heavy tones and different arrangements from the traditional sets. And Pink Floyd??? Heavily influenced by Gospel and Rhythm and Blues from America (Gilmour says so himself FFS). You can't tell me otherwise. With the exception of their experimental material like Ummagumma and what. I wouldn't call that sound British though as simialr music was also being developped stateside at the same time.

So no, not even on the ropes mate

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #663190 - 02/10/08 03:28 PM
Quote:


1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.





Nice dogma. It illustrates my point nicely.

Setting rules is restrictive. How can that be thinking 'out of the box'? You've set the boundaries/limitations from the get go.

This is keeping the box on your head.

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663197 - 02/10/08 03:37 PM
Quote IvanSC:

Quote Ken Long:

I also know you can't teach an old dog new tricks .

ken





You can if you actually have any new tricks to teach.


The day I stop learning something new in music or getting surprised by it, is the day I`ll quit playing.

As for doing it deliberately, I guess that makes my case. He`s DELIBERATELY messing up a perfectly acceptable groove?
And of course once again what he is really doing is shuffling recordings of musicians playing instruments then cutting & pasting.

It is perfectly possible to make great music with samples etc but not if you just slap a bunch of loops which contain your basic rhythmic feel together and call it art or music or whatever.

For me the human element is what makes or breaks a groove and so long as you are relying on a machine for any element of the timing the only way you are ever going to make a piece groove is if it is un-mechanised by human players with good feel.

FWIW I use drum samples a lot. But when I`m live they get played on an electronic kit by my drummer and when I am working in the studio they get tapped or programmed in by me to fit the groove I am creating at the time.
And IF I had room I`d have a real drummer every time.




Well, I mentioned Premier because I find the music particulary interesting within Hip Hop as a genre. But I don't know enough about it. Yes, he's re-arranging other people's music but he pays them to do so. Warhol did pretty much the same thing and yet he's considered a genius.

Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" was completely sequenced from tape splices. What you hear on the disc doesn't adhere to the arrangement recorded to tape. A lot of Zappa stuff is the same. Kool and the Gang's "Celebration" uses the same clap splice throughout. Does that make them any less groovy?

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Tui]
      #663199 - 02/10/08 03:42 PM
Quote Tui:

Quote Handlestash:

Quote Tui:

If you want to listen to music that swings, you need to look out for albums that were recorded before the mid 1970s. If you're looking for music that's real groovy, the cut-off date is 1984.




Queens of the Stone Age?
Belle and sebastion?




Are you asking for my opinion? Here goes:

Belle & Sebastian - Competent performers, yet strangely derivative music, reminiscent of the 60s. The groove isn't helped by drums that are too prominent in the mix (I've only listened to two tracks, mind).

Queens of the Stone Age - Not my cup of tea, but it's obvious where they've got their ideas from... Listen to Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, UFO, The Sweet (oh yes! ).

Contemporary rock is just so boring, I'm sorry to say. I'm used to hearing great tunes AND great performances - at the same time. Check out, for starters, Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant. Now, that's music.




Dude you're rambling OT. They may not be your cup of tea in the studio or who they're influenced by but by christ can Queens boogy live. B&S too.

--------------------
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http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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Tui
active member


Joined: 02/09/02
Posts: 3309
Loc: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663207 - 02/10/08 04:12 PM
Want groove? Get it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr3TynkVYh4


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: uk
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663216 - 02/10/08 04:40 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote:


1. Not sampling. Anything... at... all.

2. Play everything yourselves, including, and especially, every single drum hit. Absolutely no loops, even if you generate the loop yourself.

3. Never, ever, quantise

4. Never use any presets. Programme the damn synths yourselves.

5. Turn the click off.





Nice dogma. It illustrates my point nicely.

Setting rules is restrictive. How can that be thinking 'out of the box'? You've set the boundaries/limitations from the get go.

This is keeping the box on your head.

ken





It's certainly out of the box as far as most modern electronic genres go, and that's the point I was trying to make. Too many of them seem fixated with certain processes and certain sounds that 'define the genre' and generally, the whole scene is fixated with the whole idea of genre in the first place. If it's good music, it's good music, that's the only genre that matters.

BTW, it's strange, but true, that forcing yourself to work within some limitations can often act as a stimulant to creativity- and maybe 'thinking out of the box' - in these days of limitless processing possibilities- might mean imposing some limits on what you allow yourself to do, and what gear you allow yourself to use. Try it- you may find yourself pleasantly surprised. Simplicity can pay real dividends.

--------------------
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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
Posts: 3638
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663244 - 02/10/08 06:41 PM
How about this :

Little Feat

How did that band get that feel?

(I still like old skool hip-hop though).

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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turtles



Joined: 22/10/04
Posts: 244
Loc: Notts, mostly.
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663313 - 03/10/08 12:33 AM
+1 for the 'if you haven't felt it, you haven't got it' definition.

Getting the groove is the reason musicians tolerate long rehearsals, half-empty venues, awful managers. It's an addiction. Suddenly, often without warning, it all comes together. Everyone 'clicks'. Fromt that point on, no-one in the band gives a monkey's if the audience stays or leaves- the music is all-consuming, and when it's over, you want it again. And again.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: The Elf]
      #663345 - 03/10/08 07:05 AM
Quote The Elf:

Quote tomafd:

Quote IvanSC:



The whole prog rock thing was also a world event (unfortunately)





"Unfortunately" is putting it mildly.

Ivan, as you know... it was a global disaster.

"Tales of Topographic Oceans", for [ ****** ]'s sake.

I rest my case.



The Cheeky Girls' re-make of Topographic Oceans was great though...

What's wrong with prog anyway?!




Damn!
Another nasal passage/coffee interface moment!

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663349 - 03/10/08 07:26 AM
Quote Ken Long:


Well, I mentioned Premier because I find the music particulary interesting within Hip Hop as a genre. But I don't know enough about it. Yes, he's re-arranging other people's music but he pays them to do so. Warhol did pretty much the same thing and yet he's considered a genius.

Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" was completely sequenced from tape splices.
A lot of Zappa stuff is the same. Kool and the Gang's "Celebration" uses the same clap splice throughout. Does that make them any less groovy?

ken




There`s editing and there`s what Premier is doing.
It`s one thing to move sections of a song around & quite another to chop up a part into samples and then plonk them down in a row for a rhythm track.
Tui - yep!

Little Feat were like thousands of other bands. Tight, well-rehearsed and to the point where one of them went to sneeze and the rest already had a tissue out.

I have been telling students to learn their instrument to the point where it doesn`t get in the way of what is in their head coming out the other end of the instrument.
Same applies to bands.
The greatest joy for me in music is playing with people where I both know where they are going but at the same time know they are capable of surprising me - in a good way.

Miles Davis lost his way with Bitches Brew as far as I am concerned. It stopped coming from his heart.
Agreed he is good enough he can cut and paste and still keep it swinging, but I didn`t say that it wasn`t possible to make a piece groove with cut `n paste. just that not many people seem to be doing so.
Zappa`s sheer musicality and choice of sidemen meant he never really did anything that didn`t groove one way or another, regardless of how it was created.
And hand claps????
You must be joking.
My whole point is that provided they are done right, samples won`t get in the way of a great groove.
Provided they are done right.

Oh and Warhol is also considered to be a charlatan by many others.
Certainly not a lot of artistic fire in his approach as I am sure he would have been the first to admit.

I suppose a lot of what it comes down to for me is that so little of the current crop of music has any sense that someone`s deepest emotions were engaged in the making.

And yes, "gitting it" is deeply addictive.
(stands up)
"I`m Ivan and I`ve been a groove addict since 1954"

Genesis:
Paul carrack wrote a song about it.
I live by the groove.
Listen to anything Paul has done right back to the early days with Ace.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Richard Graham



Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 3209
Loc: Gateshead, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663362 - 03/10/08 08:15 AM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote Richard Graham:



What about prog rock and metal throughout the 70s and early 80s? Pink Floyd was a carbon copy of whom? Iron Maiden and Motorhead, carbon copies? Slayer are on record as being inspired by Maiden, and the number of metal bands (including American bands) namechecking Black Sabbath must be countless.

As for the Beatles, I'd love to hear the band the Beatles were 'carbon-copying' when they did the White Album or Revolver!







OK. Carbon copy was a strong expression. I'll give you that. But The Beatles early stuff was based on Black American rnr (including a shedload of covers). The later stuff influenced by psychoactive drugs no doubt but there was a hella of competition between what was being achieved in the studio in the UK and in LA with the Beach Boys for instance - one trying to outdo the other and I wouldn't attribute their 'psychedelic sound' to anything they picked up growing up in Liverpool. Rather an ammalgamation of their experiences abroad.

I don't know where Maiden fits in so I'll grant you that too . But Sabbath, again, based on blues and rock - albeit with very heavy tones and different arrangements from the traditional sets. And Pink Floyd??? Heavily influenced by Gospel and Rhythm and Blues from America (Gilmour says so himself FFS). You can't tell me otherwise. With the exception of their experimental material like Ummagumma and what. I wouldn't call that sound British though as simialr music was also being developped stateside at the same time.

So no, not even on the ropes mate

ken




I've no argument with the fact that British bands were influenced by American music, no sir, only an idiot would dispute that! The point is, the cross-Atlantic influence was not in any sense as 'one-way' as your original post insisted... the Beatles' early records *were* (of course) inspired by black American music (any fule kno that!) but they later (with George Martin's help) turned into anything but, incorporating everything from music-hall to baroque and experimental electronics, in turn inspiring Beach Boys (for instance) to work harder in the studio.

It's equally common knowledge that Black Sabbath had their roots in the blues. That's not the point. The point is, not what they took from America, but that what they gave back, influenced countless American bands.

As for Pink Floyd, they have been quoted as saying they were aiming at what they *imagined* psychedelic music from the West Coast of the US would sound like, but they hadn't heard much of it. They missed by a mile, and invented their own sound, incorporating all kinds of influences from children's songs (Scarecrow, Gnome) English pastoral (If...) to classical (Atom Heart Mother), along with the rock, blues and electronica. How influential this has been on the US, I wouldn't like to say. I don't know if the Flaming Lips have ever listened to a Pink Floyd record, for instance.

What I'm saying is, we all have influences, but this doesn't mean that none of us have anything new to bring to the table, and that goes for the Americans too. For instance, just because Slayer were inspired by Maiden, does not mean that they are copycats, or gave nothing back to 'British' metal.

If history backed up your contention, Meshuggah would sound exactly like Robert Johnson (who of course, wasn't influenced by *anyone* but the Devil himself). And we know that isn't so.

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britney
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #663398 - 03/10/08 09:22 AM
Quote hollowsun:

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee




Then I guess you know neither Pharrell Williams nor Marcus Miller.

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DoeZer
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #663414 - 03/10/08 09:52 AM
Quote IvanSC:



For me the human element is what makes or breaks a groove and so long as you are relying on a machine for any element of the timing the only way you are ever going to make a piece groove is if it is un-mechanised by human players with good feel.

FWIW I use drum samples a lot. But when I`m live they get played on an electronic kit by my drummer and when I am working in the studio they get tapped or programmed in by me to fit the groove I am creating at the time.
And IF I had room I`d have a real drummer every time.




sorry. have to disagree here. But i know im in the minority... to illustrate my point, i was on holiday in france a couple of months ago. they had a band in the place each night. EASILY the best band of the entire duration was a three piece. a guitarist, bassist, clarinet player. and for rhythms what were they using?? an ALESIS SR16 drum machine. they just kicked in loops every now and again and played along!! and these were stock kind of loops. quite basic. some of them with percussion added, latin style, and no fills, in other words the same basic loops or maybe two or three per song that kind of thing...
my wife couldnt go that nite and could hear the music from the campsite.. she agreed and said it sounded absolutely fantastic..

what these three guuys had was groove. they played all sorts, but with a rootsy, cajun kind of feel. but they used these mechanical drumloops to fantastic effect.. and the result sounded anything but mechanised.. they went down a STORM!!

So what would the purists say about this. three talendted guys backed by a bunch of mechanised, and quite basic, loops??! surely not!

people who can really play and feel groove can take those basic, un compromising beats and transform them quite easily. the main thing when youre playing with a drummer is that he can lock onto a beat and keep it... all the other stuff, playing before, after, slight nuances, they are just a bonus right?? i always think well programmed backing beats are WAY better than a bad drummer, although not quote as good as a good one...
ok. enough - (sorry dont feel like working today!)...
D

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: britney]
      #663463 - 03/10/08 11:25 AM
Quote britney:

Quote hollowsun:

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee




Then I guess you know neither Pharrell Williams nor Marcus Miller.




Did you actually mean "I guess you DON`T know?"

Will have to google Pharrell Williams out of curiousity.
Marcus Miller - would that be the same Marcus Miller, session bassist-for-hire that I know of?
or is there a hiphop producer of the same name?

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: DoeZer]
      #663469 - 03/10/08 11:30 AM
DoeZer you didnt read all of this (somewhat excessive) thread - we did actually briefly discuss this sort of groove transcending the drum machines aspect of it all.
My thrust is more against the stuff where it is all subservient to the loop and the loop (or whatever) is ineptly used.
DJ Premier for instance seemed in that clip to be just triggering samples, badly.
Not a lot else was going on that could be said to be furthering that particular "groove" or lack thereof.
Plus of course the ultimate yuk of a band that is all live musicians and still can`t grove.

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #663881 - 04/10/08 03:22 PM
just checked the sound file I posted to accompany this rant and of 150 people who have looked at the thread only three have commented on the track.

In contrast over 1200 people have viewed this thread and there are a ton of posts in it.

Several of you have asked for a definition of what a good groove is. The track Blue Cajun Moon that I posted is a shining example of a really funky groove that isn`t funk or r`nb.

Go give it a listen and tell us if you agree or not.
Remeber we are looking for the groove, not whether or not you like the style.

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Hol



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: jellyjim]
      #663957 - 04/10/08 08:17 PM
Quote jellyjim:

i played my friend's little daughter some random bleepy electronica (which i quite like) and asked her what it sounded like

she's quite a bright and quirky child, she replied

"it sounds like the internet"

i found that quite an unsettling comment somehow!




Lips pursed in wry amusement at that one.

In fact I could take that one step further - "THIS IS WHAT THE INTERNET SOUNDS LIKE!"

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hollowsun



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: britney]
      #663983 - 04/10/08 10:02 PM
Quote britney:

Quote hollowsun:

Except for the bit about hip-hopsters.... I know quite a few and none of them can play for toffee




Then I guess you know neither Pharrell Williams nor Marcus Miller.



Williams I don't (though what little I just discovered didn't do much for me - just sounds like typical bland modern R&Bling).

But Marcus Miller? Jeez - he's about as far off in the opposite direction of hip-hop as I can imagine....

A consummate, formally trained musician who's played on hundreds of records over the last 30 years or so with THE top artists of our age as (as Ivan put it) bassist for hire - the man's a groove on legs. I don't know but maybe he's played on a few hip-hop records recently but he is NOT a hip-hop musician per se.

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Chaconne



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664010 - 05/10/08 12:12 AM
You mean that that competently played 12 bar blues is a shining example of 'groovy'!

You are telling me that no one today can play like that - Cruise Ship band playing 101?

get out of here!

You dont think 'Mercy' by Duffy is played quite as well?

Or 'I kissed a Girl' - that rolls pretty nicely?

or 'Crazy' by Gnarls Barkely? etc etc just to name any old top twenty fodder.

You really think we should be all impressed by someone who can hold down a basic rock groove?

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ttrsvp



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664013 - 05/10/08 12:31 AM
No One Gooves but me!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Chaconne]
      #664023 - 05/10/08 07:33 AM
Quote Chaconne:

You mean that that competently played 12 bar blues is a shining example of 'groovy'!

You are telling me that no one today can play like that - Cruise Ship band playing 101?

get out of here!

You dont think 'Mercy' by Duffy is played quite as well?

Or 'I kissed a Girl' - that rolls pretty nicely?

or 'Crazy' by Gnarls Barkely? etc etc just to name any old top twenty fodder.

You really think we should be all impressed by someone who can hold down a basic rock groove?




Lets try and keep this thread friendly and polite, the way it has been so far.
You are missing my point here.
What I am trying to get across here is not that NOBODY can groove any more, simply that the overwhelming majority of people out there both on record and live seem to have forgotten how.
Or more to the point never learnt how.
There are so many examples of simple, straight ahead 4/4 tunes out there that just don`t groove at all.
It`s always easy to point out the ones that do, but you have to also look at the ratio of them to ones that don`t.

And did you notice how many of your three examples were UK artists?
This also has a lot to do with it.

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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Chaconne]
      #664056 - 05/10/08 11:42 AM
Quote Chaconne:

You mean that that competently played 12 bar blues is a shining example of 'groovy'!

You are telling me that no one today can play like that - Cruise Ship band playing 101?

get out of here!

You dont think 'Mercy' by Duffy is played quite as well?

Or 'I kissed a Girl' - that rolls pretty nicely?

or 'Crazy' by Gnarls Barkely? etc etc just to name any old top twenty fodder.

You really think we should be all impressed by someone who can hold down a basic rock groove?




your argument would have been better if you had chosen different examples...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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Tui
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664072 - 05/10/08 12:43 PM
Quote IvanSC:


There are so many examples of simple, straight ahead 4/4 tunes out there that just don`t groove at all.




That is true - sadly. To make matters worse, many contemporary pop/rock tunes aren't particularly groovy to begin with, leaving little room for the performers to lift the music onto a higher level.


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Ronnie Wibbley
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664114 - 05/10/08 05:04 PM
Do you think it has something to do with the MMR jab, which could have the effect of eliminating groove from our young people today?


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Tui
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664135 - 05/10/08 05:55 PM
God knows what's causing this. It's not only with music, is it. All forms of art are subject to steady decline, whether painting, architecture, writing, comedy... It is as if we don't appreciate "quality" anymore, for want of a better word.

MMR jabs? How about highly processed foodstuffs, aspartame, synthetic food colourings, fluoride in toothpaste and drinking water, mobile phone masts at every street corner? Could be any of those things, or a combination. Personally, I blame George Bush.


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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664139 - 05/10/08 05:59 PM
O.K -

So ignoring dance music, rap, R'n B, new laptop stuff like dub-step, american session musicians etc erc, you are saying UK 'Rythym 'n Blues' / Rock acts 'aint got no groove yes?

But has this not always been the case?

With very few execptions can Brits groove, simply because historically and culturally we are often one step removed from 'black' influences in music. American blues and funk is homegrown - for us its an import.

ocassionally in the past there where brits who got it like John Mayhall, Eric Burden etc - i.e. tapped into the 'voodoo' but mainly we find it difficult. For instance I find Led Zeppelins attempts (e.g The Oceam) awful, and we are not much good either at programming good beats - we have no Timbaland - we could never make disco either.

If this is what you are saying, I have to agree with that musical truism - but I dont hold with all of the 'youngsters these days cant PLAY WRITE SING GROOVE SPELL (delete as appropriate)

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664140 - 05/10/08 06:00 PM
Quote IvanSC:


And did you notice how many of your three examples were UK artists?
This also has a lot to do with it.




Not sure I follow there Mr. T. What does the artists being from the UK have anything to do with groove?

And to the best of my knowledge, 2/3 (and possibly the 3rd) of the records highlighted are sample based with synthetic drums. And they are all floor fillers with tons of groove.

ken

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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Tui]
      #664143 - 05/10/08 06:04 PM
Quote Tui:

God knows what's causing this. It's not only with music, is it. All forms of art are subject to steady decline, whether painting, architecture, writing, comedy... It is as if we don't appreciate "quality" anymore, for want of a better word.

MMR jabs? How about highly processed foodstuffs, aspartame, synthetic food colourings, fluoride in toothpaste and drinking water, mobile phone masts at every street corner? Could be any of those things, or a combination. Personally, I blame George Bush.




Apparently Germain Greer has written recently- defending Damien Hirst- that the 'artform' he's really good at isn't 'creating an object that has intrinsic value in itself' but 'marketing', and that marketing is in fact the premier 'artform' of the 21st century.

How sad is that ? "Never mind the [ ****** ] you actually make- the art is in selling it." Personally, I think that's utter bollocks, but if enough people are believing it, it might explain the decline in quality...

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jayzed
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664144 - 05/10/08 06:04 PM
removed

Edited by JohnnyT (05/10/08 06:05 PM)


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Tui
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #664147 - 05/10/08 06:14 PM
Quote tomafd:

the art is in selling it."




Absolutely. You can be the greatest talent ever - if you don't know how to sell yourself, the general public won't give a cr*p.

Mind you, this has always been the case, it's nothing new. However, it seems to me that past audiences were more appreciative of genuine skill and talent.


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #664150 - 05/10/08 06:21 PM
Quote tomafd:

marketing is in fact the premier 'artform' of the 21st century.

How sad is that ? "Never mind the [ ****** ] you actually make- the art is in selling it." Personally, I think that's utter bollocks, but if enough people are believing it, it might explain the decline in quality...




When has commercial art ever been anything other than over valued marketing projects? There's nothing new and original in what she has written but it is accurate. One only needs to look at the charts to confirm it.

ken

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Ian Stewart



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664186 - 05/10/08 08:22 PM
Is it possible that groove is not important anymore? For instance - is like saying to a free jazz player where is the beat? Or saying to a punk group where are the flattened 5ths? Or like saying to a classical composer where is the 909 kick drum? Maybe the groove is extinct, gone for good.

Maybe the groove has moved somewhere else. For instance in hip hop, maybe the beat is mechanical but the MCing is rhythmic.

The groove does not have to external. In romantic music, e.g. Chopin, the beat comes and goes, rubato is the thing, its the 19th Bohemian salon groove.

Got to go Taggart's on soon.

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No longer a forum member.


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664256 - 05/10/08 11:48 PM
Just to remind everyone what my original post actually said:


,.... it occurred to me that he number of young players who can actually recognise a good groove, let alone create one is dwindling fast.

Has the reduction in sperm count and testosterone levels in young males led to a similar shrinking of their bootie-shaking ability?

Nobody seems to want to get down and dirty any more.


It had nothing to do with anything other than an observation that things that really gel are on the downturn.

I deliberately didnt criticise the choice of tracks, esp. Gnarls Barkley.
Just another symptom of how far apart many of your ideas as to what grooves and what doesnt really are from mine.

I was wrangled into running a jam night tonight, much against my better judgement.

The house drummer is an older gentleman (but not as old as me) and couldnt hold together a groove if his life depended on it.
He utterly destroyed every piece he played on.
Then this nervous little debutant drummer got up on kit and played some good, solid workmanlike drums.
Nothing fabulous, not really a great groove going, but the rest of us immediately started playing ten times better.
This is far more what I am talking about than any studio/beatbox/MPC/sampler created stuff.

But somebody who is capable of grooving is usually also capable of transcending the medium they are using.
After all, there are actually great accordeonists and banjo players out there.

And let us not forget that Agadou filled dance floors.
I never said the punters were sufficiently discerning to only dance to great grooves.

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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664267 - 06/10/08 12:54 AM
Yeah but just because you cant find a good young drummer does not mean that everything is going down the pan. My father is a Jazz pianist in his 70's and he never has a problem finding new young talent. Yeah, sure, the Jazz 'scene' is nothing like it was - but he is always impressed that there is new blood out there taking up the baton.

I hear great stuff on records, on the radio, on the net everyday made by youngsters that play great, can program great and use whatever medium there is to keep making great grooves.

Live Rythym and Blues - I dont know to be honest - sorry its that way for you...

--------------------



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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Chaconne]
      #664277 - 06/10/08 06:16 AM
Quote Chaconne:

Yeah but just because you cant find a good young drummer does not mean that everything is going down the pan. My father is a Jazz pianist in his 70's and he never has a problem finding new young talent. Yeah, sure, the Jazz 'scene' is nothing like it was - but he is always impressed that there is new blood out there taking up the baton.

I hear great stuff on records, on the radio, on the net everyday made by youngsters that play great, can program great and use whatever medium there is to keep making great grooves.

Live Rythym and Blues - I dont know to be honest - sorry its that way for you...




(grin) Stop being ageist. It really isn`t about age, it is about the dwindling number of people of all ages who have the desire and apparently the experience of playing ensemble to create something worthwhile musically.
Jazz?
Don`t talk to me about jazz.
My first gig was in London as a kid playing in a jazz band.
Initally N.O. marching band & later what used to be called "modern" jazz before Miles and his buddies went electric.

No different round here - a tiny minority of players who get it in a sea of self - indulgence.

When I was coming up through the series of levels onbe went through to get to play with the big boys, people rehearsed until they were tight & began having a rapport.
Consequently the majority of players at whatever level of competence were able to hold down a pice pretty well.
"Valerie" is not a difficult song, I had never played it before & last night a lady showed up wanting to do it, complete with chord charts.
Nobody got close, even after several times round the changes, and forget anything about it grooving.

It`s even beginning to put me off the idea of starting a fun band again.
Already got 3 volunteers I wouldn`t want & haven`t got the heart to say "no" even though I know I will have to.
Sorry this is turning into an old man`s rambling but I am seriously not feeling too happy about any of this.
What started out as one of my usual semi-serious rants is turning out to be more true than I thought, at least locally here in the north Cambridgeshire area.

Maybe I`ll take up fishing....

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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DoeZer
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Chaconne]
      #664757 - 07/10/08 09:25 AM
Quote Chaconne:

O.K -

So ignoring dance music, rap, R'n B, new laptop stuff like dub-step, american session musicians etc erc, you are saying UK 'Rythym 'n Blues' / Rock acts 'aint got no groove yes?

But has this not always been the case?

With very few execptions can Brits groove, simply because historically and culturally we are often one step removed from 'black' influences in music. American blues and funk is homegrown - for us its an import.

ocassionally in the past there where brits who got it like John Mayhall, Eric Burden etc - i.e. tapped into the 'voodoo' but mainly we find it difficult. For instance I find Led Zeppelins attempts (e.g The Oceam) awful, and we are not much good either at programming good beats - we have no Timbaland - we could never make disco either.

If this is what you are saying, I have to agree with that musical truism - but I dont hold with all of the 'youngsters these days cant PLAY WRITE SING GROOVE SPELL (delete as appropriate)





please please. not the "only blacks have groove" argument.
surely everyone is in agreement thats total b*llocks. absolute and utter b*llocks...

i thought the aerosmith vs Run DMC video in the 80's "walk this way" put paid to that theory yes??
i mean listen to steely dan and tell me white guys cant groove. enough said!

ok. moving past the "white guys dont got it" cliche. i think its totally unfair to say that brits dont got it either.. Ian DUry and the Blockheads? they didint groove because they are white brits yes? the Specials?. even newer brit bands. "Hard Fi" have a pretty good sound IMO.

i would agree they are fewer and farther between nowadays, but that is also true in the states. all that absolutely turgid gangsta rap.. or not so much gangsta rap as "look at me i have loadsa money and cars and what not"... christ that is so boring.

i thought your earlier examples by the way. Mercy, Crazy by gnarls barkely very good examples of fine modern tunes that truly do groove. i would also include some acts like the gorillaz in there but thats personal taste (thats dangermouse again of course)... also modern bands like black keys. amazing grooves (again theyre white - shock horror)...

i would agree les music seems to "have it" nowadays. but i am 100% convinced it is still out there. its on myspace its everywhere. a quick trawl on the net and you'll find some amazing music. the problem is that radio and the music industry are controlled by people whose agenda is not to have really good music out there, its to control kids of the age of 14 to 18 and get inside their fr*ng minds...
ok enough conspiracy theories for one day...

d

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/planetdoezer

Edited by DoeZer (07/10/08 09:27 AM)


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: uk
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: DoeZer]
      #664761 - 07/10/08 09:28 AM
Quote DoeZer:

... the problem is that radio and the music industry are controlled by people whose agenda is not to have really good music out there, its to control kids of the age of 14 to 18 and get inside their fr*ng minds...
ok enough conspiracy theories for one day...

d




No, they don't want their minds, just their money. Pointless exercise, really, I don't know a single 14- 18 yr old who actually pays for music !

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664773 - 07/10/08 09:54 AM
Quote IvanSC:


And let us not forget that Agadou filled dance floors.





That's because its a brilliant record!

BTW,are you using an AZERTY keyboard? Reason I ask is you seem to be using your grave accent key for apostrophes.

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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DoeZer
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Joined: 23/04/02
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #664802 - 07/10/08 10:58 AM
Quote tomafd:



No, they don't want their minds, just their money. Pointless exercise, really, I don't know a single 14- 18 yr old who actually pays for music !




yes and thats always been the way.

i never believed and never will bel;ieve thats "its the teenagers who are the only ones spend money on music". Its simply NOT NOT NOT true... and yet the radio waves continue to be bombarded with that sound. always amazed me, always will.


just a question. you dont suspect any kind of sinister element to the relentless pushing of rap artists bleating on about "gucci, chanel, cristal shampagne, viiolence, uzis" and various other weaponry... you genuinely dont think that has an effect on the kids listening? and if you agree it does have an effect do you genuinely think that the promoters of said music dont know exactly what that effect is and want that effect to occur?? for me its a no brainer...



--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/planetdoezer

Edited by DoeZer (07/10/08 11:04 AM)


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molecular
member


Joined: 13/12/03
Posts: 773
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #664803 - 07/10/08 10:58 AM
Hi Ivan,

I'm sorry, but I found your posted song pretty butt-numbing actually - they're clearly good, but I wasn't dancing: and I'm a big country fan.

I don't want to be dismissive but dancing hasn't been arse orientated since 1978 - straight lines in the 80s, these days its all about looking like you're undergoing electro-shock therapy...

(CAVEAT: you're talking to a 27 year old bluegrass and disco fan here, not a grumpy old muso)

...and the beats and grooves are appropriate. You can't do a Charleston to Elvis - I have no doubt he marked the death of danceable music for a generation. If it's about great ensemble playing, surely, as always, you can blame:

1. The Beatles, for making house bands uncool...
2. Beat Detective, for being good enough to fool joe public, but not anyone who really cares...
3. The BBC, for unadventurous playlisting...
4. Cliff Richard, for being a twat...
5. Beat Detective (again)...
6. The Credit Crunch...
7. The SAE...(!? - I'm trying to fit in here...)


I know plenty of bands up here who play together VERY VERY WELL - none of them have a hope in hell of getting any industry attention because playing well requires practise, which means LESS TIME spent on HAIRCUTS. It also means a strong interest in music which is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT, as we all know, to getting heard by anyone.

In short - if you want to hear good ensemble playing by new acts, I want to know where you're looking. Because if its on radios one or two, or on an HMV headphone column, or on the top 3 stages of a festival, you're looking in the wrong places...

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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molecular
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: molecular]
      #664806 - 07/10/08 11:01 AM
Quote molecular:

If it's about great ensemble playing, surely, as always, you can blame




This is a generic 'you' - I'm not having a go at Ivan...

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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DoeZer
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664810 - 07/10/08 11:12 AM
sorry. one last thing.

had to point out. @ Chaconne. Led Zeppelin's "The Ocean".
IMO that song has a truly great groove going? you dont think so? im intrigued. well i guess - i am white so i may be wrong!

just goes to prove were all trying to solve something that is entirely subjective and thus unsolvable (insoluble??... huh? )

d

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/planetdoezer


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Stoney



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 586
Loc: London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664824 - 07/10/08 11:32 AM
For an example of a modern band that groove, I always thought Gomez grooved massively - only heard their first album though.....

Do you mean a different kind of groove?


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #664845 - 07/10/08 12:16 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote IvanSC:


And let us not forget that Agadou filled dance floors.





That's because its a brilliant record!

BTW,are you using an AZERTY keyboard? Reason I ask is you seem to be using your grave accent key for apostrophes.

ken




Nah - only use those 14y2"£%$* things when in france.

Probably just my arthritic fingers - I used to type really well but am finding it a bit tricky these days.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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caveman82



Joined: 30/01/06
Posts: 1299
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: dubbmann]
      #664849 - 07/10/08 12:20 PM
Quote dubbmann:

... look at the success of the dap kings (btw, they recorded a fake noir-soul lp under the title 'revenge of mr. mopoji' soundtrack - killer rhythm section).




cheers dubbman. will buy that asap. those guys IMO are some of the best musicians around at the moment, IMO i think they are the ones who should be given some of the credit for amy winehouse's success.

also dubbman, check out el michels affair, if you didn't already know about them. they are chaps from the dap kings as well. sounding out the city is an immense record.

FINALLY, has anyone noticed how very few decent bass players there around? bass players that actually listen to the bass drum and play for the rest of the band opposed to themselves?

my rant is that there are not enough bands or musicians who play improv. PLAY MORE IMPROV!!!


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664850 - 07/10/08 12:23 PM
We`re sorta sliding sideways here again.
My original comment came as a result (at least partly) of not finding anyone here in East Anglia that actually WENT OUT rather than playing in their bedrooms that could hold down a good groove.

Mr. Bluegrass disco fan, if you like to dance to disco AND bluegrass, I`m not surprised you found Eddie Raven butt-numbing.
Do you hand-crochet those sequinned hats at the same time as you skin your possums up there?
(wherever "UP" is)

Seriously, I offered that particular track up (think I said this already) BECAUSE I was pretty sure very few of you on here would like the actual content, but in th ehope that you would look past the content at the vibe of what was going on.
Sure it is a pretty basic and obvious groove, but bear in mind that I am saying there are less and less people out there playing that are capable of "getting" it.

I`m sitting listening to Tony Joe White at Austin City limits live with bass & drums.
Now that man can lay down a groove just talking to you all by hisself.

Little Feat
Steely Dan
etc
etc

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: molecular]
      #664852 - 07/10/08 12:28 PM
Quote molecular:

.
if you want to hear good ensemble playing by new acts, I want to know where you're looking. Because if its on radios one or two, or on an HMV headphone column, or on the top 3 stages of a festival, you're looking in the wrong places...




I very occasionally listen to Radio 2 if they have a comedy show on.
Never ever radio 1.
Don`t know where the nearest HMV is.
Never go to festivals. Too much mud and crap music.

I tend to get my music at local small gigs.
Daughter Ms. Terrible promotes a few local "13 bands for £5" things that I of course wind up going to, plus all the pub & club acts I see.
That`s where I am getting my impression from.
I would hope that there is at least a fighting chance that anything that gets airplay or into a proper record shop would have something going for it, even if I know in my heart of hearts a lot of it doesn`t.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664878 - 07/10/08 12:50 PM
I'd love to boogie with you Ivan but I live in Ireland. This tread has reminded me how much fun I used to have sitting in with 'The Fridge' on saturday nights when I was 17/18 in a hay barn at the back of Batty O'Brian's bar in a little village outside my home town. He'd build a stage and put a PA in (wouldn't be aloud now). We used to arrive at about 6, run throught any new songs that we wanted to play then kick off at around 9 and just jam until the neighbours complained. Playing old Cream numbers and hendrix but stuff like the stone roses and the pumpkins too. Everything a young rocker needs to learn the ropes. Skinning up behind the shed. My first girlfreind wearing Poison. My black velvet coat with the silver buttons. Sigh.

'What would you do, if I sang outta tune...'


That was only 13 years ago. What the hell happened?
You nearly have to pay people to turn up for rehearsals now.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #664887 - 07/10/08 01:06 PM
Quote Handlestash:

What the hell happened?
You nearly have to pay people to turn up for rehearsals now.




ain't that the awful truth. that was why i gave up on my old band in London - couldn't get a reliable (as in, turning up to rehearsals) rhythm section.

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #664902 - 07/10/08 01:22 PM
Quote onesecondglance:

Quote Handlestash:

What the hell happened?
You nearly have to pay people to turn up for rehearsals now.




ain't that the awful truth. that was why i gave up on my old band in London - couldn't get a reliable (as in, turning up to rehearsals) rhythm section.




OT but I just wanted to give you my latest experience with that. We lost our drummer just as we were about to record an album. We met this young fella. An extraordinary musician and he agreed to join the band. We did a couple of rehearsals and everything was going great. We started doing some pre production at my house and he turned up for the first evening then missed the next couple. Then he cancelled the next couple of rehearsals. Then he hurt his arm playing rugby so I suggested he help us do his drum parts using EZ so we could continue with pre then he could take them home and work at them at his own pace. He said ok. He didn't turn up for the first session. Myself and the guitarist started work on the drums. I called him and told him we'd be doing some more work the next evening and he said he'd be there. He called the next evening and said he couldn't come because he was out watching a rugby match. So the question shouldn't be if anybody can groove anymore.
It should be 'Can't a young musician function in any way at all anymore'.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664908 - 07/10/08 01:29 PM
that is an all-too-familiar tale to these ears, i'm afraid.

it's even less funny when you're paying for a rehearsal room. and then the bill has to be split between the few of you who did turn up. so not only did you pay for the privilege of standing around doing nothing for several hours, you also paid more than you would have usually!
oh, such great times.

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: uk
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664912 - 07/10/08 01:37 PM
Quote IvanSC:


I would hope that there is at least a fighting chance that anything that gets airplay or into a proper record shop would have something going for it, even if I know in my heart of hearts a lot of it doesn`t.




Proper record shop ? Do they still exist ?

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #664914 - 07/10/08 01:40 PM
He didn't even have to pay for rehearsals. And myself and barry were going to finance the album. All he had to do was turn up at rehearsals, the studio, practice at home and turn up at gigs. That was nearly a year ago. It really has killed our interest in the project. Which is a pity because there's 16 great songs written.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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kenwyn



Joined: 07/03/05
Posts: 300
Loc: Peterborough
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664919 - 07/10/08 01:55 PM
Quote IvanSC:

We`re sorta sliding sideways here again.
My original comment came as a result (at least partly) of not finding anyone here in East Anglia that actually WENT OUT rather than playing in their bedrooms that could hold down a good groove.

etc




I do 3 gigs a week playing funky Latin in one band and in another acoustic live lounge and I live in Cambridgeshire..... Which I think is in east Anglia.

I must admit I spent 2 years looking for a decent vocalist and I was considering any kinda music. Now I know 6. bit like buses. They are out there mate but you gotta look under hard to move rocks.

And now everything is about Kareoke talent shows, so groove and musicianship is hidden behind walls of manufactured shite. I am not bitter, just very frustrated

--------------------
www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico


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kenwyn



Joined: 07/03/05
Posts: 300
Loc: Peterborough
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #664924 - 07/10/08 02:09 PM
Quote Ian Stewart:

Why all this obsession with music to dance to when Caucasians can't dance anyway? (It's not racist, I'm Caucasian.)




You obviously have'nt seen Napolean Dynamite

--------------------
www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9426
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: kenwyn]
      #664946 - 07/10/08 02:52 PM
Quote kenwyn:


You obviously have'nt seen Napolean Dynamite




That scene killed me.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2945
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #664952 - 07/10/08 02:58 PM
For groove in Cambridgeshire, I'm compelled to put in a plug for Matoke, a South-African jazz/dance band. OK, I'm a little biased since I often do sound for them, but when the lads are on form they're absolutely on fire.

Their drummer organises a lot of charity gigs, one of which had the most unreal experience of my life. Picture your basic church hall with about 100 middle-class white English people aged 20-60 sat at tables round the edges. The lads played a slow song as an intro, then hit them with a fast one. And an roomful of 100 middle-class white English people got up as one and started dancing like it was their last chance ever. I wondered whether I'd stepped into an alternate dimension or something...


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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
Posts: 1388
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665033 - 07/10/08 05:56 PM
Yeah I veered off with the generalisations - but there is something in it - to do with all kinds of complex cultural influences. However - its not some kind of genetic thing - and you are right to point out the exceptions DoeZer.

Now however this seams to be a general thing about just being 'together' - what is that special thing that makes bands and musicians 'glue'? This holds for orchestras as well - listen to the terror of the Berlin Phil. tearing through Beethovens Fifth with Karajan for example.

I suppose nobody old enough (thats me) to remember the portent of doom the drum MACHINE seamed at its introduction is surprised by all of this. However i still side with others here that say its still out there. Maybe I just dont want to be a grumpy you know - but i still hear things - even on radio 1 - that makes me think people are still listening, learning and loving it.

I maintain Sir, that people can indeed still groove!

--------------------



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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: kenwyn]
      #665049 - 07/10/08 07:08 PM
Quote kenwyn:

Quote IvanSC:

We`re sorta sliding sideways here again.
My original comment came as a result (at least partly) of not finding anyone here in East Anglia that actually WENT OUT rather than playing in their bedrooms that could hold down a good groove.

etc




I do 3 gigs a week playing funky Latin in one band and in another acoustic live lounge and I live in Cambridgeshire..... Which I think is in east Anglia.

I must admit I spent 2 years looking for a decent vocalist and I was considering any kinda music. Now I know 6. bit like buses. They are out there mate but you gotta look under hard to move rocks.

And now everything is about Kareoke talent shows, so groove and musicianship is hidden behind walls of manufactured shite. I am not bitter, just very frustrated




Ha ha ha you soppy tart! (still giggling)
Yep I think Peterborough just about counts as East Anglia - hope so, as I live about 12 miles from Peterboro!

Very pleased to hear you are having fun playing in Grunty Land.
I did a rehearsal cum sorting out what material we`re going to play session with my geriatric mates yesterday and it was a lot of fun.
Really looking forward to rehearsing, which shows how far down MY morale has sunk in the last year or so!

Of course now we have to decide if we are going to do British R `n B or Watts/Stax soul & if we will get away with slipping some New Orleans fonk in dere too.
Plus at the moment we are going to try & do it with guitar bass & drums.
I haven`t sung and played bass at the same time in 17 years..... don`t even own a bass amp any more.

"Buddy can you spare me a bass cab?"
(grin)

And for the benefit of all the earnest young men on the OTHER thread, yes we will be playing one or two of my songs as well.
But probably NOT telling the punters they are (yawn) originals.

Great line from a song I heard in the states:
"We don`t `low original material, `less it`s bin done before"

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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kenwyn



Joined: 07/03/05
Posts: 300
Loc: Peterborough
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665084 - 07/10/08 09:32 PM
I live in Peterborough but am not from Peanut butter. Here for cheap mortgage. Place is a cultural void. Like I said 3 gigs a week, how many in Peterborough 0.

Thats not to say people in Peanut are not talented its just that no one wants to stump up any money for decent music. I could easily play at loads of middle class hippy venues for zero cash, but lifes to short.

Place desparately in need of a UNI.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/kenwynmaslow
www.myspace.com/mcmagico


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665089 - 07/10/08 09:46 PM
Quote IvanSC:


And for the benefit of all the earnest young men on the OTHER thread, yes we will be playing one or two of my songs as well.
But probably NOT telling the punters they are (yawn) originals.





...But however will they tell the difference?

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #665099 - 07/10/08 10:29 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote IvanSC:


And for the benefit of all the earnest young men on the OTHER thread, yes we will be playing one or two of my songs as well.
But probably NOT telling the punters they are (yawn) originals.





...But however will they tell the difference?




Remember the song I posted a link to on here? The "I`ve got the take me down to London in your Morris Thousand Traveller" blues?
That is one of mine.
Yeah I know - there`s a thousand out there all written on the same theme....
Not one of my finest moments, but certainly funny if you had been at the gig.


--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665200 - 08/10/08 11:04 AM
So in closing, the answer is NO!

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665203 - 08/10/08 11:15 AM
(grin) You`re getting as bored by this thread as I am?

Was wondering idly this morning if it would make it to 2k reads...

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665206 - 08/10/08 11:21 AM
Quote IvanSC:

(grin) You`re getting as bored by this thread as I am?

Was wondering idly this morning if it would make it to 2k reads...

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.




Hear hear. (Or is it here here?)

Either way, I concur. Perhaps I'll come visit some time and we can have our jam and eat it too.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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Touchmaster Oddski



Joined: 26/02/08
Posts: 53
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665218 - 08/10/08 12:30 PM
STOP THE PRESSES!

OLD PERSON IN 'THINGS NOT AS GOOD AS THEY USED TO BE' SHOCKER!


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onesecondglance



Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 2140
Loc: Reading, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665221 - 08/10/08 12:36 PM
see, and there was you thinking the thread was dying, Ivan...

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665235 - 08/10/08 01:08 PM
Quote IvanSC:

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.




Or could the problem be that those who think they get it really don't and others who don't seem to get it to those who think they get it really do get it?

Who's kidding who here?

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.


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table for two
active member


Joined: 24/03/02
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665243 - 08/10/08 01:24 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65doEvpMSXM&feature=related

sos forumee


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molecular
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665255 - 08/10/08 02:03 PM
Quote IvanSC:


Mr. Bluegrass disco fan, if you like to dance to disco AND bluegrass, I`m not surprised you found Eddie Raven butt-numbing.
Do you hand-crochet those sequinned hats at the same time as you skin your possums up there?
(wherever "UP" is)





lovely. and no - but my girlfriend has embroidered my suits for me while seated on a sheepskin she tanned herself...

While trying to avoid a shameless plug of my band - I would like to forward what I consider quite a tight live performance, and a definite mix of bluegrass and disco to be found by going HERE and clicking on the left hand video ("here comes the storm"...)

I get your idea - and I'm a big little feat fan - but I challenge the idea that what is groovy is anything more than entirely subjective. But that point has been made plenty already in this thread.

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Setter
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665269 - 08/10/08 03:14 PM
Was listening to some of the music my son chooses (modern Rush clones I tell him). All competently played at a live recording. Some of it was great, some just a few bars later felt a bit flat. Reading this thread tells me why.. the band were getting into the groove and then just marginally falling out of it again.

Obvious with hindsight but I'd never have spotted the reason without this thread.

J


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #665421 - 08/10/08 10:14 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote IvanSC:

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.




Or could the problem be that those who think they get it really don't and others who don't seem to get it to those who think they get it really do get it?

Who's kidding who here?



ken




Well you had to ask, Ken.....

This little corner of the thread is getting more and more like a Kursall Flyers lyric every day.



But.


For me, I can see the difference on the dance floor.
When the band is really cooking, the punters react even if they don`t all understand fully what they are reacting to.

--------------------
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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: molecular]
      #665423 - 08/10/08 10:21 PM
Quote molecular:


I get your idea - and I'm a big little feat fan - but I challenge the idea that what is groovy is anything more than entirely subjective. But that point has been made plenty already in this thread.




Groovy = dorky `60`s expression

groove = whole `nother thing.

It`s only subjective in that anyone who has never actually been in that particular zone really and truly doesn`t know what being part of a great big beautiful groove is about.
Mind you, being from the Land of Bagpipes, you can be forgiven for your confusion.
Now about this challenge you were planning on making....
So far I haven`t seen anything on here that refutes my point.
And nothing that makes me feel any more comfortable that the future of music in the UK is in safe hands.

Mind you I had a first rehearsal for a recording thingy tomight and we did not groove at all.
Not even a tiny bit.
Mind you I haven`t played bass in about 4 years or more & I met the drummer for the first time tonight.
Hopefully that un-grooveliness will change pretty sharpish.

P.S.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #665424 - 08/10/08 10:24 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote IvanSC:

(grin) You`re getting as bored by this thread as I am?

Was wondering idly this morning if it would make it to 2k reads...

The biggest problem is that those who "get" it will get it, and those that don`t, won`t know they don`t.
But that won`t stop them kidding themselves.




Hear hear. (Or is it here here?)

Either way, I concur. Perhaps I'll come visit some time and we can have our jam and eat it too.




My family is from Sligo one generation back (1930`s) - never been to the Emerald Isle but you never know.

Mind you the other half is from Australia - nobody`s perfect.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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DoItAgain
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665425 - 08/10/08 10:26 PM
Timing.


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DoItAgain
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665426 - 08/10/08 10:26 PM
Is everything.


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Richard Graham



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665487 - 09/10/08 08:16 AM
My band grooves like a motherf**ker.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Richard Graham



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Setter]
      #665491 - 09/10/08 08:25 AM
Quote Setter:

Was listening to some of the music my son chooses (modern Rush clones I tell him).




Who are the modern Rush clones? I'm curious, 'cos although Rush only grooved infrequently after Peart joined, they did groove a bit on some earlier tunes (Best I Can, I Think I'm Going Bald, Passage to Bangkok solo).

Peart is definately a 'technique, flair and imagination' drummer. Lee is similar with his bass. It's much harder to groove with very busy playing: I think Rutsey had more groove the Peart. Bonham and Jones' thing was to keep the beats less cluttered and allow more groove.

Music doesn't always have to groove to be good though. Sometimes its enough to rock or swing.

Cobham does all three.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Ian Stewart



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665506 - 09/10/08 08:49 AM
The groove died with jazz rock. I don't mean the wonderful groups like the Brothers Johnson. I mean the smug virtuosic session players and the session player manques who thought technique meant you were better than those with less technique. So the raw excitement of the punk and new wave groups, who could create excitement with a good, although limited technique, were looked down upon. Instead we got a new elite class of pathetic people who practised technique rather than music.
The drummers would get imported obscure records because Steve Gadd was on them and then study the hi-hat pattern obsessively until they could copy it as well as a sampler could. On the next gig, whether it was a bubble-gum pop record or a big function, suddenly all these standards would have this hi-hat pattern thrown in everywhere, from the Girl From Ipanema, to She Loves You via the Victory Waltz. Then the bass player would start slapping in the most unsuitable songs because he had a Stanley Clark complex. All the time dressed in a smug grin that said 'we are too good for all this'.

Jazz rock killed popular music, not punk, not electro, not sampling. These ugly posers thought girls would fall at their feet. When the girls saw them as objectionable dorks who had the conversational skills of a recorded voice on a telephone queuing system, they, of course, assumed the girls were as thick as the people they played to. Then this embarrassing British imitation of how they thought American musicians talked followed :

'Hey dude, we've got to make to L.A., we would be appreciated there.'

Then the bands would insult the audience on stage, loud enough to know you were being insulted, but quiet enough so you could not quiet make the insult out. They would crack humourless in-jokes on stage that the other band members laughed at in an obviously forced way, partly because the jokes were a shibboleth, partly out of embarrassment. This was esoteric music with no tolerance for anyone who was not a jazz rock bigot. The musicians made it quite clear they had contempt for the audience so the audience went somewhere else.

As for the music itself it was the most leaden form of organised sound it was possible to hear at that time. The themes were yet another permutation of the pentatonic scale and the only chords they seemed to use were suspended 4ths. If any new ideas were introduced it then ceased to be jazz rock. It was the nadir of popular music and what followed can be traced back to that style, a bunch of unmusical, technically proficient, ugly, smug, pentatonic scale robots.

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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Richard Graham



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #665510 - 09/10/08 08:58 AM
Quote Ian Stewart:

The groove died with jazz rock. I don't mean the wonderful groups like the Brothers Johnson. I mean the smug virtuosic session players and the session player manques who thought technique meant you were better than those with less technique. So the raw excitement of the punk and new wave groups, who could create excitement with a good, although limited technique, were looked down upon. Instead we got a new elite class of pathetic people who practised technique rather than music.
The drummers would get imported obscure records because Steve Gadd was on them and then study the hi-hat pattern obsessively until they could copy it as well as a sampler could. On the next gig, whether it was a bubble-gum pop record or a big function, suddenly all these standards would have this hi-hat pattern thrown in everywhere, from the Girl From Ipanema, to She Loves You via the Victory Waltz. Then the bass player would start slapping in the most unsuitable songs because he had a Stanley Clark complex. All the time dressed in a smug grin that said 'we are too good for all this'.

Jazz rock killed popular music, not punk, not electro, not sampling. These ugly posers thought girls would fall at their feet. When the girls saw them as objectionable dorks who had the conversational skills of a recorded voice on a telephone queuing system, they, of course, assumed the girls were as thick as the people they played to. Then this embarrassing British imitation of how they thought American musicians talked followed :

'Hey dude, we've got to make to L.A., we would be appreciated there.'

Then the bands would insult the audience on stage, loud enough to know you were being insulted, but quiet enough so you could not quiet make the insult out. They would crack humourless in-jokes on stage that the other band members laughed at in an obviously forced way, partly because the jokes were a shibboleth, partly out of embarrassment. This was esoteric music with no tolerance for anyone who was not a jazz rock bigot. The musicians made it quite clear they had contempt for the audience so the audience went somewhere else.

As for the music itself it was the most leaden form of organised sound it was possible to hear at that time. The themes were yet another permutation of the pentatonic scale and the only chords they seemed to use were suspended 4ths. If any new ideas were introduced it then ceased to be jazz rock. It was the nadir of popular music and what followed can be traced back to that style, a bunch of unmusical, technically proficient, ugly, smug, pentatonic scale robots.




I do not recognise this horrible picture you are painting, I must have been too young! Were you in one of these jazz-rock bands, or just subjected to them?

P.S. I like the Brothers Johnson too, their greatest hits is a staple listen in my car, but I also 'dig' Mahavishnu Orchestra! Earth Wind and Fire *and* Rush, Meshuggah and Gram Parsons, Television and The Damned. And where do the Stranglers fit in all this?

Must we take sides, find scapegoats? (makes for entertaining posts though!)

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665573 - 09/10/08 11:44 AM
Food for thought.

I have to say I am inclined to agree at least in part about the damage a large section of fusion music did.
But as with all things there is good and bad in everything.


OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!!


Apart from Opera.

Trained voice, as in seals honking motor horns trained, in my opinion, but then X zillion opera fans can`t be ALL wrong so I guess it is me.
ALso that is nothing to do with groove or lack thereof.
Schubert had his own way of imposing a subtle yet insistent groove into his work, whether the players sought it or not.
Much as I love JSB it is hard to find a groove in his mathematical purity.

BACK ON TOPIC

Stranglers: "Peaches" has a killer groove.
Lurching, angular grooooove.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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matt keen



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665601 - 09/10/08 12:47 PM
Mummy, Mummy Mummy - what is a Funkadelic

--------------------
Matt
www.krcollective.org


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tomafd



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665609 - 09/10/08 01:06 PM
Quote IvanSC:


OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!!


Apart from Opera.

Trained voice, as in seals honking motor horns trained, in my opinion, but then X zillion opera fans can`t be ALL wrong so I guess it is me.





Gross generalization and unwarranted purely personal expression ALERT...


all together now..... OH YES THEY ARE !

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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Yago
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: table for two]
      #665619 - 09/10/08 01:20 PM
Quote table for two:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65doEvpMSXM&feature=related

sos forumee




Nice one , I am currently watching all his vids


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grab



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665634 - 09/10/08 01:54 PM
Played by someone who reads it that way, JSB has some great cross-rhythms which really lay a groove down. There was a Finnish violinist playing with the Britten string orchestra who had a concert at West Road last year (name escapes me, sadly) who is one of the rare people who does that. Significantly, he's as much involved with trad folk as classical, so he's used to finding the groove in a tune that'll get people dancing.

It's painful to hear baroque/classical music played with piano-roll precision, when you can feel a great beat underneath it struggling to get out. Once upon a time, people danced to this stuff; now they just sit down and appreciate the technique.


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Tui
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665643 - 09/10/08 02:16 PM
The Brothers Johnson... Wow. I thought I'm the only one still alive who might remember them. Yeah, amazing stuff.

Groove also has a lot to do with choosing the right tempo for the song. Often, fast tunes can't and won't groove so well, because there isn't much breathing space left for developing a good groove. It's rather significant that most popular music in the 60s-80s wasn't so fast, compared with what is considered normal today.

Remember Wuthering Heights? That was ridiculously slow, by today's standards, and had an odd time signature to boot. Yet, it topped the UK charts for a month. Nice groove, I'd say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Ej4WDybCQ&feature=related

I'm always amazed when even some of the finest musicians on the planet don't seem to realise that choosing the correct tempo is as important for the success of their music, as is playing the correct notes. Here's a typical example, there must be thousands more. The first clip is the rather funky studio LP version, and the second is a somewhat hysterical life version. Talk about murdering the groove in cold blood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm6pfpV-tt0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM9EhbDhckk&feature=related


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Tui
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #665646 - 09/10/08 02:25 PM
Quote Richard Graham:


Music doesn't always have to groove to be good though. Sometimes its enough to rock or swing.

Cobham does all three.




Yup, BC is also an incredible jazz drummer. There is a youtube clip somewhere with Cobham and Herbie Hancock. Absolutely STEAMING.


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Dr Whom



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #665654 - 09/10/08 03:07 PM
Quote Ian Stewart:

The groove died with jazz rock. I don't mean the wonderful groups like the Brothers Johnson. I mean the smug virtuosic session players and the session player manques who thought technique meant you were better than those with less technique. So the raw excitement of the punk and new wave groups, who could create excitement with a good, although limited technique, were looked down upon. Instead we got a new elite class of pathetic people who practised technique rather than music.
The drummers would get imported obscure records because Steve Gadd was on them and then study the hi-hat pattern obsessively until they could copy it as well as a sampler could. On the next gig, whether it was a bubble-gum pop record or a big function, suddenly all these standards would have this hi-hat pattern thrown in everywhere, from the Girl From Ipanema, to She Loves You via the Victory Waltz. Then the bass player would start slapping in the most unsuitable songs because he had a Stanley Clark complex. All the time dressed in a smug grin that said 'we are too good for all this'.

Jazz rock killed popular music, not punk, not electro, not sampling. These ugly posers thought girls would fall at their feet. When the girls saw them as objectionable dorks who had the conversational skills of a recorded voice on a telephone queuing system, they, of course, assumed the girls were as thick as the people they played to. Then this embarrassing British imitation of how they thought American musicians talked followed :

'Hey dude, we've got to make to L.A., we would be appreciated there.'

Then the bands would insult the audience on stage, loud enough to know you were being insulted, but quiet enough so you could not quiet make the insult out. They would crack humourless in-jokes on stage that the other band members laughed at in an obviously forced way, partly because the jokes were a shibboleth, partly out of embarrassment. This was esoteric music with no tolerance for anyone who was not a jazz rock bigot. The musicians made it quite clear they had contempt for the audience so the audience went somewhere else.

As for the music itself it was the most leaden form of organised sound it was possible to hear at that time. The themes were yet another permutation of the pentatonic scale and the only chords they seemed to use were suspended 4ths. If any new ideas were introduced it then ceased to be jazz rock. It was the nadir of popular music and what followed can be traced back to that style, a bunch of unmusical, technically proficient, ugly, smug, pentatonic scale robots.





heh

these might cheer u up mate

www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/ecm.m3u

www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/wldy.m3u

www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/wl.m3u

unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


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Handlestash



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #665658 - 09/10/08 03:31 PM
Quote Dr Whom:


unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho




What the hell is that?!

Ugh, IMVHO the only time this sort of music ever came close to having a groove is 'Contusion' from Songs in the key of life.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: matt keen]
      #665688 - 09/10/08 05:23 PM
Quote matt keen:

Mummy, Mummy Mummy - what is a Funkadelic



Hush yo ` mouf an` eat dem grits, chile!

Ivan
The artist formerly known as DeFreaque

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: grab]
      #665690 - 09/10/08 05:27 PM
Quote grab:

Played by someone who reads it that way, JSB has some great cross-rhythms which really lay a groove down. There was a Finnish violinist playing with the Britten string orchestra who had a concert at West Road last year (name escapes me, sadly) who is one of the rare people who does that. Significantly, he's as much involved with trad folk as classical, so he's used to finding the groove in a tune that'll get people dancing.

It's painful to hear baroque/classical music played with piano-roll precision, when you can feel a great beat underneath it struggling to get out. Once upon a time, people danced to this stuff; now they just sit down and appreciate the technique.




Just reminded me of why I hate the currently fashionable abortion that passes for interpretation of Joplin, et al.
Supposed to be music for whores and their Johns????!!!

And yeah JSB if he is interpreted that way, I agree 100% jsut that the Schuberts of this world are more insidious.
Hard NOT to get one on with stuff like the largo bits in Die Forelle.
Squirmy, fishy feel. Pun intended.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Leon Tech



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665774 - 09/10/08 11:22 PM
People don't Grove anymore because these days to conside yourself a musician you have to deal with cables, knobs, buttons and gadgets and gizmos.
It's not about just mastering a keyboard, but a little guitar too, a little music production and maybe a little reason 4.

--------------------
Pro Audio & DJ Equipment Reviews


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Leon Tech]
      #665796 - 10/10/08 06:23 AM
Quote Leon Tech:

People don't Grove anymore because these days to conside yourself a musician you have to deal with cables, knobs, buttons and gadgets and gizmos.
It's not about just mastering a keyboard, but a little guitar too, a little music production and maybe a little reason 4.




(grin) All of which happens in the privacy of your own shed/garage/bedroom.
You have a point, there.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Richard Graham



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665807 - 10/10/08 07:55 AM
Quote IvanSC:

Quote Leon Tech:

People don't Grove anymore because these days to conside yourself a musician you have to deal with cables, knobs, buttons and gadgets and gizmos.
It's not about just mastering a keyboard, but a little guitar too, a little music production and maybe a little reason 4.




(grin) All of which happens in the privacy of your own shed/garage/bedroom.
You have a point, there.




You lot can speak for yourselves. I'm proud to say that I've grooved mightily with two different bands this week, purely for fun. I may not be a master of any instrument, and one of the guitarists might have referred to me as 'Professor' as I stared deeply into the computer monitor during Tuesday night's session, and I might like twiddling knobs and hooking up microphones, but that doesn't mean the groove has to die.

Moral: get out more, and join a band (or two).

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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Richard Graham



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Tui]
      #665810 - 10/10/08 07:59 AM
Quote Tui:



Groove also has a lot to do with choosing the right tempo for the song. Often, fast tunes can't and won't groove so well, because there isn't much breathing space left for developing a good groove. It's rather significant that most popular music in the 60s-80s wasn't so fast, compared with what is considered normal today.




Totally agree with the importance of getting the tempo bang on for the song! You can easily ruin a song by playing it a few BPM too fast, and conversely, if the tempo is bang on, a song can suddenly gel.

Loved the Johnny Guitar Watson stuff Tui, thanks, will be checking out a CD of his shortly.

--------------------
"if you don't have much soul left and you know it, you still got soul" - Bukowski


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molecular
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #665855 - 10/10/08 10:28 AM
Quote IvanSC:

Quote molecular:


I get your idea - and I'm a big little feat fan - but I challenge the idea that what is groovy is anything more than entirely subjective. But that point has been made plenty already in this thread.




Groovy = dorky `60`s expression

groove = whole `nother thing.

It`s only subjective in that anyone who has never actually been in that particular zone really and truly doesn`t know what being part of a great big beautiful groove is about.
Mind you, being from the Land of Bagpipes, you can be forgiven for your confusion.





Ivan, Ivan, Ivan...

The only dorky 60's thing around here is the random replacing of vowels with apostrophes... Man!

But let's not fight, shall we.

But this comment about my confusion? Are you accusing Highland folk musicians of not understanding how to freak out 'in the zone'? Do you think it's all about Classical bagpiping and dreadful limp-wristed 'craic' in an Irish theme bar? As I asked before - maybe you're looking in the wrong places... Have you ever been to the Highlands? Was it on a 'Lochs and Glens' coach Holiday?

Secondly - all I can do is pity you if your experience of new bands doesn't make you feel like they have a groove. Aside from my opinions of my own band, we've played with a few other new bands around up here, and they all knew exactly where the zone was. dBass, Fanattica, Black Diamond Express, Miyagi, Claes Cem

I choose the bands we tour with carefully, but I'm happy that when we play with these guys they are going to pull it out of the hat.

Subjectivity: I'll ignore the slight implication that I've never been in the groove, but I thought this was a thread about up and coming musicians, not an "I can groove and you can't" bragging opportunity. Personaly I see people clearly zoning out to stuff I just don't get - and I can't share your opinions about the new musicians around you. So, whatever, either it's subjective or its a postcode lottery... Either way, the "Land of Bagpipes" is clearly in better shape than wherever you are.

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http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #666041 - 10/10/08 07:43 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:


unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho




What the hell is that?!

Ugh, IMVHO the only time this sort of music ever came close to having a groove is 'Contusion' from Songs in the key of life.





um, ok

it's bob james, jean luc ponty and wilbert longmire

i know i know!.. you're right of course! they are all completely talentless shite and cant play or groove for toffee


sorry to offend your 'music critic' sensibilities.

--------------------
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Ian Stewart



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #666048 - 10/10/08 08:09 PM
Quote Dr Whom:



it's bob james, jean luc ponty and wilbert longmire




I really like Bob James, I will give them a closer listen. One day I am going to check out his early free-jazz recordings.

OT - has anyone noticed how rock and jazz violinists have unusual names : Jean Luc Ponty, Sugarcane Harris, Stuff Smith?

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Setter
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Richard Graham]
      #666051 - 10/10/08 08:18 PM
Quote Richard Graham:



Who are the modern Rush clones?




Dream Theatre! and their vocal free incarnations...

But in my defence I say that mostly to wind up my 16year old.

J

PS I didn't know Rush existed without Peart!
PPS the live Red Barchetta (Exit Stage left) rolls along nicely though.


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #666053 - 10/10/08 08:20 PM
Quote Dr Whom:

Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:


unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho




What the hell is that?!

Ugh, IMVHO the only time this sort of music ever came close to having a groove is 'Contusion' from Songs in the key of life.






um, ok

it's bob james, jean luc ponty and wilbert longmire

i know i know!.. you're right of course! they are all completely talentless shite and cant play or groove for toffee


sorry to offend your 'music critic' sensibilities.




Are you really sorry?

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ken long



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Setter]
      #666098 - 11/10/08 12:21 AM
Quote Setter:

Quote Richard Graham:


Who are the modern Rush clones?



Dream Theatre! and their vocal free incarnations...
But in my defence I say that mostly to wind up my 16year old.




Dream Theatre? Modern? Didn't they peak in like 1990? That means your kid wasn't even born yet!

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I'm All Ears.


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Touchmaster Oddski]
      #666115 - 11/10/08 07:20 AM
Quote Touchmaster Oddski:

STOP THE PRESSES!

OLD PERSON IN 'THINGS NOT AS GOOD AS THEY USED TO BE' SHOCKER!




actually, it`s more of a "The young people today don`t know they`re born" thing....

we need an irony smiley!

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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: molecular]
      #666120 - 11/10/08 07:39 AM
Quote molecular:



Ivan, Ivan, Ivan...

The only dorky 60's thing around here is the random replacing of vowels with apostrophes... Man!

But let's not fight, shall we.

But this comment about my confusion? Are you accusing Highland folk musicians of not understanding how to freak out 'in the zone'? Do you think it's all about Classical bagpiping and dreadful limp-wristed 'craic' in an Irish theme bar? As I asked before - maybe you're looking in the wrong places... Have you ever been to the Highlands? Was it on a 'Lochs and Glens' coach Holiday?

Secondly - all I can do is pity you if your experience of new bands doesn't make you feel like they have a groove. Aside from my opinions of my own band, we've played with a few other new bands around up here, and they all knew exactly where the zone was. dBass, Fanattica, Black Diamond Express, Miyagi, Claes Cem

I choose the bands we tour with carefully, but I'm happy that when we play with these guys they are going to pull it out of the hat.

Subjectivity: I'll ignore the slight implication that I've never been in the groove, but I thought this was a thread about up and coming musicians, not an "I can groove and you can't" bragging opportunity. Personaly I see people clearly zoning out to stuff I just don't get - and I can't share your opinions about the new musicians around you. So, whatever, either it's subjective or its a postcode lottery... Either way, the "Land of Bagpipes" is clearly in better shape than wherever you are.



very eloquent but a bit wide of the mark.
I have toured extensively in Scotland but never further north than Glasgow because ther just isn`t enough people living in the highlands and those who are are too scattered to make it economically viable for a small outfit that needs to work as close to 7/7 as possible to make money.
My partner was fron Southend,which made the fuel bill alone pretty horrendous.
You are missing the point here - I have never said "nobody can groove any more".
Sure there are exmples out there,mostly successful bands and with seasoned players, which doesn`t discount YOUNG players I might add.
My problem is with the rank and file who seem to have gotten their musical experience off the East West display in the local music shop, rather than playing with other people.
Or, worse, think pasting a bunch of pre-recorded loops together and playing "in-time - ish" over the top of them constitutes somthing that grooves.
I don`t doubt for a minute that you folkies can get it on with the best of them, but there again how MANY bands are there local to you who can do this?
As far as I am concerned tight ensemble playing that has a cohesive rhythmic "feel" (i.e. stuff that grooves) is a dying genre.
In deference to your opinion I will go find examples of the bands you have cited as being able to get it & let you know what I think.
Remeber opinions are just tht, so we may well have to agree to differ on your and my interpretation of what actually grooves/has a good groove.
And I never even implied inferred or in/immer anything else about your ability or lack thereof.
Maybe it`s just that well-known Scots sensitivity....
My first wife was a scot & I still bear the scars!

And do you REALLY have Irish theme bars in Scotland????
My current dad-in-law is from Sligo and was back there for the first time in neary 60 years.
Went to the same pub every night of his stay, where the boys, assuming he was a brit, gave him all the fenian songs every night.
End of the week, he congratulated them on their playing, asked for the wearing of the green one more time & then told them he was born within 2 miles of the pub they were playing in.
You could have heard a pin drop.
Moral: Don`t assume just because we come from England wer`e all stupid southern jessies.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #666121 - 11/10/08 07:47 AM
P.S. On the subject of my perhaps gratuitous crack about bagpipes in scotland, feel free to substitute "Accordeon"
or indeed "Banjo" when played in the frayling sytle adopted by the Big Yin.

(Now I`m REALLY for it!)


P.S. Just in case,

This post was written tongue in cheek, as I am sure the vast majority of you will know.

Just that along with the groove, the sense of humour seems to be an endangered species round here on occasions.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #666137 - 11/10/08 09:19 AM
Quote IvanSC:


Maybe it`s just that well-known Scots sensitivity....




Or maybe that is just that well-known English misunderstanding of Scotland. Its not all biscuit tins and White Heather Club.
But it has made me think about cultural aspects of rhythm. My friend says that the reason he really likes the 6/8 rhythm is because he is South African, in that country it is commonly used. However I am half Scottish and lived in Scotland yet I don't like the 6/8 rhythm at all, even though it is common in Scottish music.
In fact this year is the first time for years I have composed a work that is not in 4/4.

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molecular
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Ian Stewart]
      #666176 - 11/10/08 01:29 PM
Oi! I'm neither sensitive nor humourless: I take most of Ivan's posts with a pinch of salt, but you would be amazed at the amount of times I've been confronted with much worse chat in the same vein, and meant perfectly seriously... There are huge amounts of people who think the traditional music up here is all dum-de-tiddle-de-dum and prancing around like a fairy, which is a bit like saying the whole of London is like that green cockney feller off the Mighty Boosh.

And yes, we do have Irish Theme Bars... as depressing a clover-hued virus as they are everywhere else.

Now, away and rattle someone else's dustbins, 'cor bloimey guv'nor, dontcha know innit. (You are from wales, right?)

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #666313 - 12/10/08 07:54 AM
I daren`t say anything about the Welsh all thinking they can sing, or I`ll upset Max again!

Oh dear! I`ve gone and done it anyway!

Re Scotland, I used to tour the lowlands about 2 or three times a year and heard some very good music up there, also some very bad.

As always, it isn`1t anything to do with national characteristics, although most of the 6/8 I have been involved in has been jazzy 6/8.
Africans likeing 6/8?
Hmmm...
Most of the African stuff I have comes from West Africa and there isn`t a lot of 6/8.
Come to think of it there isn`t a lot of 4/4 either.
Lots of 2/4 and a bunch of polyrhythmic things I would be hard put to name, but some wonderfully good and also some er wonderfully bad grooves.
I really must sort out getting vuinyl onto cd or mp3 and post a couple of the ethiopian polyrhytthmic things I have.
demanding on a european ear (and butt!) but boy it`ll work out your sense of rhythm till you get it.
Indian stuff I have played is similar. I found that if you try and think about what YOU are playing, it doesn`t work.
Wierdest audition I ever did. Showed up to try out for a country rock band & the people auditioning me played sitar and tablas. Me on my rickenbacker bass.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #666459 - 12/10/08 06:13 PM
Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:

Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:


unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho




What the hell is that?!

Ugh, IMVHO the only time this sort of music ever came close to having a groove is 'Contusion' from Songs in the key of life.






um, ok

it's bob james, jean luc ponty and wilbert longmire

i know i know!.. you're right of course! they are all completely talentless shite and cant play or groove for toffee


sorry to offend your 'music critic' sensibilities.




Are you really sorry?





yup.. really really really really really really really really really really really really sorry

nah, it's was logical progression see? the guy I posted it for said he liked bro's johnson, and this stuff follows on from that in a sort linear club-music progression of the day.

i just posted it cos jazzy stuff CAN have a great groove, you just have to remove the fatal word 'rock' from jazz-rock and hey presto!

like this next track.. a very cheesy chorus, but as the track progresses, the groove after the chorus becomes more superb with each cycle... at the end it is seriously cookin'!

quincy jones circa 77 ish, another club classic, i think it's possible Chaka on vocals, hang on... yup, here's the roster:

Ashford and Simpson, Patty Austin, Luther Vandross, Chaka Khan, Ralph McDonald, Herbie Hancock, Eric Gale, Michael Brecker, Steve Gadd, Richard Tee, Anthony Jackson, David T. Walker, Wah Wah Watson

Micheal brecker.. the brecker bro's did some f*ckin AWESOME brass work for narada micheal walden back in the day, he had an album with santana on it and airto... airto is so out there, or was, I saw him live years back with his missus Flora Purim (check her early work btw, superb!) and he plays his drumkit standing up (inc the kick & hats)!!!!

anyways... 'stuff like that' - a Quincy Jones undergound club hit before he worked with micheal jackson: (sorry the alight speed change, my turntable's shagged)


www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/slt.m3u

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
Posts: 602
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #666461 - 12/10/08 06:21 PM
here's that Narada micheal walden track... a truly aweful chorus, sorry about that, those jazz guys were messin with 'disco-y' chorus's alot back then, but it's worth a listen for the brecker's superbly tight horn work and the percussion break from airto later on in the track, carlos santana on guitar I think. (he was on the album)

http://www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/IDWNETDWY.ram

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You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #666566 - 13/10/08 07:57 AM
Quote Dr Whom:

Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:

Quote Handlestash:

Quote Dr Whom:


unfortunately it's those damned top session players tho




What the hell is that?!

Ugh, IMVHO the only time this sort of music ever came close to having a groove is 'Contusion' from Songs in the key of life.






um, ok

it's bob james, jean luc ponty and wilbert longmire

i know i know!.. you're right of course! they are all completely talentless shite and cant play or groove for toffee


sorry to offend your 'music critic' sensibilities.




Are you really sorry?





yup.. really really really really really really really really really really really really sorry

nah, it's was logical progression see? the guy I posted it for said he liked bro's johnson, and this stuff follows on from that in a sort linear club-music progression of the day.

i just posted it cos jazzy stuff CAN have a great groove, you just have to remove the fatal word 'rock' from jazz-rock and hey presto!

like this next track.. a very cheesy chorus, but as the track progresses, the groove after the chorus becomes more superb with each cycle... at the end it is seriously cookin'!

quincy jones circa 77 ish, another club classic, i think it's possible Chaka on vocals, hang on... yup, here's the roster:

Ashford and Simpson, Patty Austin, Luther Vandross, Chaka Khan, Ralph McDonald, Herbie Hancock, Eric Gale, Michael Brecker, Steve Gadd, Richard Tee, Anthony Jackson, David T. Walker, Wah Wah Watson

Micheal brecker.. the brecker bro's did some f*ckin AWESOME brass work for narada micheal walden back in the day, he had an album with santana on it and airto... airto is so out there, or was, I saw him live years back with his missus Flora Purim (check her early work btw, superb!) and he plays his drumkit standing up (inc the kick & hats)!!!!

anyways... 'stuff like that' - a Quincy Jones undergound club hit before he worked with micheal jackson: (sorry the alight speed change, my turntable's shagged)


www.dancetech.com/a_kilo_audio/slt.m3u




As you lot prolly know I came to pop music from a jazz background & yes jazzers in general are more likely to hit good grooves.
And the Breckers are delicious.
But there seems to be an attitude nowadays that "we are good enough we can do anything, but we choose to make our music inaccessible to the masses" which in turn leads to the arrival of an audience who for the most part couldn`t find a groove if it jumped out of a darkened alley and mugged them.
But they CAN pretend to appreciate the exquisite subtleties of something they don`t have to make themselves look like fools trying to dance to.
Horrible grammar but I hope the message gets across.

I can remember going through a phase as a bass player where my favorite drummer and I would amuse ourselves by taking the rhythm as far away from the basic underlying 4/4 of the song as we could for as long as we could without actually losing the other members of the band.
Thick dwarf time.
But I learned that particular lesson pretty quickly and am still somewhat ashamed of that period in my musical life.

And Doctor Whom - if that lot couldn`t groove, there would indeed be something seriously wrong somewhere.
OIh and Quincey Jones`s cookbook even cooks, too!
Sad muppet that I am, I own a copy & have tried some of his recipes.
But the book has such great asides about Quince`s life, it could have been just a biog.
And yes there IS a recipe for salty chocolate balls.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #666686 - 13/10/08 12:53 PM
heh heh, i know what u mean. I love rock music but the rhythms can be rather tedious and uninspiring at times (boof-baff, boof-baff etc)

what i liked i think about that period of club music was that it allowed soloists playing instruments like trumpet and trombone to have club hits. Not your usual featured instruments. people like Raul De Souza & Eddie Henderson & even Herp Albert had a club hit (Rise) albeit it was a 33rpm album track which deejays played in clubs at 45rpm.

when the mainstream biz picked up on it thru the grapevine the Radio-1 jocks started playing it, but at the normal 33rpm speed, lol, which caused a few chuckles & groans of dismay from people used to hearing it played in clubs at 45rpm.

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Gorrion



Joined: 13/10/08
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #669704 - 20/10/08 07:57 PM
Burial is quite good as far as dubstep goes.

Sorry to be resurrecting a long-dead thread.


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Stevedog



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #669786 - 21/10/08 02:24 AM
Interesting thread and most pertinent to something i had happen recently...

Whilst working on a track for the new DoG's album i had a Bass line that was spot on timing wise and note wise. Nothing wrong with it at all in the technical sense. However, somehow it didn't quite gel into the whole arrangement. It lacked any "lope". Its' hips just didn;t move. Gave it a friend and ,eh voila, he added a touch of Andy Fraser mojo and it now sounds perfect.

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #669799 - 21/10/08 07:09 AM
Sometimes it just comes down to being a bass player thing.
I haven`t actually come out and said this before in this thread, but so often the groove or lack thereof does seem to revolve round the bass player`s contibution.

Harking waaaay back in this thread I mentioned an album I did where two or three of my tracks contributed were dropped and a synth bass substituted because of "timing issues".
The reality was that I had slid the line I was playing ahead and behind the drum machine track in order to get some humanity into the songs.
The folks I was doing it for ended up with tracks that had been quantized to death.
Probably still wondering why those particular tracks don`t work very well.
"It was that Limey bass player - even with his parts dropped out, he obviously affected the way the drum machine played."
(grin)

INcidentally, I actually got into a jam on Sunday that grooved here and there!

Drummer was a bass player who also played drums and we just dug in and WORKED.
I had sore fingers afterwards, but for 2 numbers it was nice to actually see a crowd of musicians actually bopping at a jam rather than criticising those in the drivers seat and waiting impatiently for their turn.



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thenaturallevel



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #669832 - 21/10/08 08:09 AM
Ivan, are you still grooving man


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #669847 - 21/10/08 08:33 AM
Nope - this morning I be truckin`.

This weekend I will be snoozing.
2 gigs, sat night and sunday afternoon working for my old boss with his country band.
On a borrowed Behringer bass amp and a hohner jack bass with knackered strings.
I can hardly contain myself.
And-a root fifth root fifth root fifth

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Gorrion



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670051 - 21/10/08 04:39 PM
It is definitely a bass player and drummer thing, for better or worse.

And it's the bass player who makes the people dance.


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molecular
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Gorrion]
      #670156 - 21/10/08 10:11 PM
Quote Gorrion:



And it's the bass player who makes the people dance.




I feel this thread taking off again....

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http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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...................
member


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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Gorrion]
      #670161 - 21/10/08 10:22 PM
Quote Gorrion:

It is definitely a bass player and drummer thing, for better or worse.

And it's the bass player who makes the people dance.




There it is


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SmokeHouseStudio



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670198 - 22/10/08 01:10 AM
Ivan, you make a good point, but...

I recently posted a thread 'flawed vs flawless' which explored the feeling that early 60's/70's records sounded better for a variety of different reasons... musicianship, gear used (minimal), experimentation etc.

The point is, at the end of it all, it's all subjective.

Sure I might prefer the sound of those early records, others may prefer the cutting edge sounds of today.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that todays generation of musicians have never listened to motown, or bluegrass, or whatever your flavour of choice is. There are possibly more kids out that hammering away at a guitar than there ever has been... and there's a reason they're playing what they're playing, whether it's edgy disco-indie-beat, deathcore metal or drum and bass... it's because it's new and it's what they want to hear.

Perhaps when you were a lad, you were lectured to about how music is becoming crude and lazy... we'll never hear another group like 'harry roy and his dance orchestra' again.

Musicianship is on the rise again... sure there will be the ever increasing divide between music and 'pop' music, but there will be a much cooler scene beneath the surface.

You really shouldn't put down contemporary music styles, if they give joy to people, then it's a positive thing...
I choose not to listen to 99% of what's out there, but I won't critisize those that do, and I'll keep an open mind and often give things a second listen...

--------------------
'Just another Idiot with an opinion'


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670220 - 22/10/08 07:23 AM
Smokehouse - if you asctually read what I have written here and in your thread thoroughly, I am not commenting at all on musical genres here - purely on the ability of people young and old these days as regards playing ensemble in a way that makes people want to dance.
Laying down a groove.
Call it what you want.

As someone who has worked in everything from a raga group to C&W via orchestral, soul, motown, rock `n roll, blues... you name it, I am not exactly averse to different forms of music.

My point is more that whilst there might be "more people picking up a guitar" - which I doubt - today, they are doin gso largely in their bedrooms/garages & not gettin gthe experience of playin gwith others.
I learned my licks on an old portable record player by picking up the needle and running it back over the track a zillion times, then going out and playing the songs I learnt with similarly inept, spotty youths either in school or at the local weekly youth club dances.
But it helped make me as a musician.
Nowadays the kids have far less opportunities to get out there and play together in front of an audience while they are learning their craft.
I am pretty sure this has a huge effect on their ability to groove.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9426
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670249 - 22/10/08 08:39 AM
3000 views and not a single analysis of the 'hair theory'.

Dunno, might have to lock this thread due to lack of PC about hair.
I'll wait it out to see if I get any complaints.



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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Freuman



Joined: 10/06/08
Posts: 483
Loc: Benfleet, Essex, UK
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Zukan]
      #670316 - 22/10/08 11:16 AM
A decent afro would help...



Something quite interesting is the fact that it only seems to be bassists and drummers that are interested in getting a groove going.

Just remember:

"You can't hold no groove if you ain't got no pocket..."



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11011110110010101111 - 110000001111111111101110 - 101110101101
Hexadecimal binary coding anyone?


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670325 - 22/10/08 11:30 AM
but that`s because we bassists like having drummers for pets.
Nobody else goes near `em.

Mind you I think the lead guitarist problem with what to do with those funny boring bits between solos doesnt help matters.
Thank god for keyboard players - sitting on a comfy chair holding down a huge obliterating pad with one`s left hand all night not only takes no effort but also doesn`t seem to affect the groove apart from making it less audible.

This is why bassists and drummers should play louder than everyone else put together.

And I cant believe you used "afro" and "decent" in the same sentence.

Hugg E. Bear....

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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tomafd



Joined: 03/10/05
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670329 - 22/10/08 11:36 AM
Quote IvanSC:


Thank god for keyboard players - sitting on a comfy chair holding down a huge obliterating pad with one`s left hand all night not only takes no effort but also doesn`t seem to affect the groove apart from making it less audible.






Indeed. I once had a special preset for my rig- number 24- which when called up would summon up not only obliterating pads, but also a host of lunatic sound fx and general noise, which was bloody useful for reminding the guitarist that it was time to shut the [ ****** ] up on his tedious soloing and get back to the groove. It was quite loud enough to obliterate drums and bass as well, and once made the drummer fall off his stool... How We Larfed.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: tomafd]
      #670398 - 22/10/08 01:33 PM
tomafd = you HAVE to share.
You have no idea how many times I have wished for something like that, Could have used it on a gonzo drummer I had the misfortune to work with TWICE recently.

Bet it`s a patch that only works on some obscure piece of keyboard kit and unreproducable by other means.
Still like an mp3 if poss....

Oh - and if you don`t think keyboard prejudice isn`t alive and well, pop over to that classical site I keep banging on about and have a look in the "non-classical music" discussion area.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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Revson



Joined: 04/07/06
Posts: 23
Loc: California
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: Handlestash]
      #670593 - 23/10/08 06:27 AM
Oh yeah, that's a beautiful thing.


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tomafd



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670648 - 23/10/08 09:21 AM
Quote IvanSC:

tomafd = you HAVE to share.
You have no idea how many times I have wished for something like that, Could have used it on a gonzo drummer I had the misfortune to work with TWICE recently.

Bet it`s a patch that only works on some obscure piece of keyboard kit and unreproducable by other means.
Still like an mp3 if poss....

Oh - and if you don`t think keyboard prejudice isn`t alive and well, pop over to that classical site I keep banging on about and have a look in the "non-classical music" discussion area.





I was playing with a bunch of folk in the 'world' music territory, and my job, amongst the usual, was to reproduce the atmosphere of being in a Cameroonian forest, as recorded by the main members of the band when hanging out with the forest people there. Including their rather gorgeous singing and drumming. I was running an old Akai S1100 on stage, along with a Prophet VS synth, so preset 24 would bring up a HUGE pad off the VS with much filter sweeps on the edge of resonance break-up, and on the S1100, a different sound effect on every note in the bottom 2 octaves, along with massed forest people singing across the 2 middle octaves, and yet more sound fx across the top 2 octaves, including thunder...

So a ten note chord.... especially using the thunder fx... could do some serious damage. Vast filter sweeps, massed singing and drumming, thunder, rain, jungle creatures yelling, cicadas, you name it, some of it slowed down for added low end impact. A BBC nature doc soundtrack gone gonzo on steroids, and probably a touch of acid as well.

Oh yes... I forgot the variation which also kicked in the VS's arpeggiator on top in full 'aciiiid !' mode. Over the top is putting it mildly.



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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670671 - 23/10/08 10:17 AM
Phwoarrr!

Now that`s what I call POWER!

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IvanSC



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Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670897 - 23/10/08 04:27 PM
I just inadvertently landed myself right in put up or shut up land.
Some of you are going to like them, some of you are going to ram them right downn my throat.

2 demo tracks off a cassette are in the readers wives area.
The keyboard player who lives in Canada now sent me an mp3

Wot I dun in about 1974/5

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turbodave



Joined: 25/04/08
Posts: 2448
Loc: derbyshire uk
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670913 - 23/10/08 04:42 PM
I did a John Peel session about 4/5 years ago and the engineers at maida vale were chuffed to be working with people who could play(lay down a groove)....for a change!

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My head hurts!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #670922 - 23/10/08 05:29 PM
how very sad.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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IvanSC



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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #678487 - 15/11/08 11:59 AM
Juuust kidding!

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #678489 - 15/11/08 12:07 PM
You done did revive this monster!

ken

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I'm All Ears.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
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Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #678498 - 15/11/08 12:31 PM
Actually, it was hearing the monster grooves put down by those funkaholics, Coldplay that prompted me.

Shake yo` bootie down!

P.S. Won`t SOMEbody comment on me managing to upload an Avatar after seventeen years on the forum?

I was so proud......

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: IvanSC]
      #678502 - 15/11/08 12:45 PM
Quote IvanSC:

P.S. Won`t SOMEbody comment on me managing to upload an Avatar after seventeen years on the forum?

I was so proud......




I did. In the future of the music biz.

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I'm All Ears.


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IvanSC



Joined: 08/03/05
Posts: 7852
Loc: UK France & USA depending on t...
Re: Can`t anybody groove any more? new [Re: ken long]
      #678511 - 15/11/08 01:11 PM
Quote Ken Long:

Quote IvanSC:

P.S. Won`t SOMEbody comment on me managing to upload an Avatar after seventeen years on the forum?

I was so proud......




I did. In the future of the music biz.




Quote:

ken

nice smiley Mr T.




Why.... so you did!






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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!


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