At the risk of being considered the village idiot, why not mix on headphones? I mean, most people today are listing to music on their ipods anyway. Mixing on headphones solves quite a few problems when it comes to having a properly treated room, the right kind of speakers etc. And if you know your headphones as well as others know their speakers, what's really the difference? Is there any theoretical reason why you wouldn't be able to compensate for your headphones shortcomings just as you would when using for example near field speakers?
I'm not saying the ideal shouldn't be mixing on speakers, it just seems that in the real world - where people are mixing in less than ideal rooms, you would be saving yourself quite a lot of hassles and maybe actually having less frequency-issues. And at the same time saving yourself a heap of money.

Why not indeed!

It's precisely what I do. 80% of my mix in headphones, then a few speaker checks to get the bass balance right. Job done.

Works for me...

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Everything people have been doing has their reasons, and the pros know more than me. I don't know of any well-known mixes of songs having been done mostly or exclusively on headphones (please name examples if you know of any!!).

Then again, I myself like to use headphones for mixing, I find it much more precise than my listening through my untreated room, and I get good results, also lauded by people with very refined hi-fi's. I advice a search on "Comb Filtering", learning about this taught me a lot on room acoustics and why my room is horribly bad - on low frequencies, like 60 hz, more than twenty db difference in the sinus wave in different parts of my room.... So I'll stick with trying to get the best results I can through headphones.

no argument from me(!) Good Headphones are cheaper than good monitors and accoustic treatment.

--------------------
www.thediplomatz.com

Maybe works for some but I've never found mixes done solely on headphones to translate well on other systems. I agree with Elf, speakers have to be involved at some stage.

On a fundamental level, phones are missing components from the opposite channel both as reflections and, to some extent, directly though with some of the top end filtered by ones head !! This extra signal can make a significant impact on mixing decisions. Balancing the lower frequencies in the mix is a particular problem with phones.



http://www.myspace.com/philogg

Why not indeed - I mix on both headphones and loudspeakers.

HD 800 (open) and HD 25-1 (closed) headphones - Harbeth Monitor 30A and K+H O110D monitors - Grace m902B controller.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I have also always checked my mixes on various speakers when using headphones, but have also done so when mixing on near field speakers - thus in my mind there is no fundamental difference. Interesting that others have the same experience.
The point about reflections etc from the opposite speaker seems a very valid point though.
I have found that I have a tendency to get overly picky when using headphones (which is more or less always these days) and then when I compare something on speakers I think "Wow, I just wasted about 10 hours tweaking the reverb on the high hat". But then again, back to my point about ipod-users, I would suppose a certain segment of listeners would appreciate such attention to detail..?

i see no reason why you cant have a great attention to detail when mixing in monitors. If your stereo field sounds good you shod be able to get good results. I spend an awful lot of time on attention to detail in my dance music and i've had great feedback about the attention to detail.

I cant mix on headphones for my life, but maybe because im not used to the way it sounds. If i work on cans late at night, the next time i listen to it it sounds like total crap! Bass frequencies ar all eq'd wrong, things are too loud, fx are too all over the place. Its shocking how bad it sounds to me normally!

But i know people who swear by it because they weren't as fortunate with their neighbours so they got used to cans!

--------------------
www.myspace.com/michaeldow www.myspace.com/portasoundband

Happy B'Day John.



--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

I don't think it is a good idea to mix on headphones only, however I certainly use them when mixing to check things and to get a feel for what the iPod listening crowd will hear.

Think about what happens when you are listening to a stereo pair of speakers in a room...

Even if you don't take room reflections into account, it is a very complex scenario.

Sound leaves the right speaker and hits your right ear first, and then hits your left ear at a different angle slightly later. Same thing with the left speaker hitting your left ear first and then slightly delayed to the right ear.

Add in reflections, and it is a complex equation for sure.

When you are listening to speakers, BOTH of your ears hear the output from BOTH speakers. With headphones, your left ear hears the left speaker only, and your right ear hears the right ear only.

These are completely different listening experiences, and you need to make sure that you are accommodating both!!!

There are some headphones out there that try to simulate this scenario, but obviously nothing does it perfectly as there is a lot more involved than just panning. Sounds that hit your ear at different angles have different frequency energies.

It is a very, very complex topic, and there is no simple answer. For me, I mix 90% of the time through speakers, but always check things and fine tune a few things through headphones.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote axl:

---

I mean, most people today are listing to music on their ipods anyway.

---

I wondered about this before, although I came to the conclusion that it is a red herring — given that the people listening on iPod earbuds will if anything think that stuff mixed on speakers and played back through earbuds is the way things should sound anyway. So I don't think there's a huge disadvantage or advantage there.

Personally, I do quite a bit on headphones as well as monitors. They're great for getting details right on reverb tails etc. But sometimes there's a bit too much detail, which I can find distracting.

MW wrote a useful article back in Jan 07 exploring some of the considerations when mixing on headphones

Mixing on headphones is possible and in certain situations it's the only way to get by. But it's not the easiest task in the world to achieve and it's not really as useful as a reliable reference as mixing in an acoustically well controlled space with a good quality loudspeaker system.

I have found that the more I became accustomed to mixing in high quality monitoring environments with decent loudspeaker kit, the less I had the desire to mix with headphones. In fact I rarely use headphones aside from tracking or confirming minor issues. It's funny to me now that I approach things this way because I used to heavily rely on headphones. But the bottom line is that most people haven't had the experience of high quality monitoring in a high quality environment day in and day out and so they don't know what kinds of mis-representations headphones can be (usually are) making to the sound and only a few exceptional engineers can mix well on headphones in my experience.

HERE is an article about some of the technical issues with mixing on headphones that might give a bit of perspective.

Liz

--------------------
MIRRORMIX STUDIO
blog

Quote EnlightenedHand:

---

But the bottom line is that most people haven't had the experience of high quality monitoring in a high quality environment day in and day out and so they don't know what kinds of mis-representations headphones can be (usually are) making to the sound and only a few exceptional engineers can mix well on headphones in my experience.

HERE is an article about some of the technical issues with mixing on headphones that might give a bit of perspective.

Liz

---

Good advice liz, but axl could balance that informative but rather negative article with my feature from SOS January 2007, entitled 'Mixing On Headphones: Successful Mixing Without Loudspeakers':

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm

In it I cover some of the things that Bruce Valeriani complains about, including how to cope with spatial anomalies, judging bass end, Simulating The Loudspeaker Experience With Crossfeed Plug-ins...

Mixing On Headphones is a way of life for more and more people who either have poor acoustics or need to make music at unsocial hours, and as long as you can cross-reference on loudspeakers occasionally lots of musicians seem to be finding it a successful approach.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

I'm in agreement with you. I do want to be careful not to make it look easy though.

Liz

--------------------
MIRRORMIX STUDIO
blog

Quote Kaw-Liga:

---

I don't know of any well-known mixes of songs having been done mostly or exclusively on headphones (please name examples if you know of any!!).

---

In a recent interview with Sufjan Stevens in tape Op mag, he spoke about recording the Michigan album and mixing it entirely on a pair of AKG cans. He also ONLY used 2xSM57s and an AKGC100S!!

It's a beautiful sounding record.

--------------------
[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

Hi,

I do a lot of mixing on headphones, and I am certainly used to using them, as I do a lot of my music stuffs at night/early hours of the morning. I do remember one particular tune I was working on sounded great through headphones, but was absolutely lost when I played it through my monitors. So, it is important to do regular spot-checks between headphones and monitors.

I trust my headphones though most of the time, as most of the music I listen to is through these same cans, so I know pretty much how stuff will translate.

I usually do a few rough mixes, burn them to CD and play them in my car stereo, and this definitely helps me smooth out any faults in the mix.

Saying that, though, my band's EP was mixed by a very talented producer/engineer in a great sounding room through some great monitors, and it sounded huge when played back at the studio. Once I had got the finished article, I played it through headphones, my home stereo, my car, and through some shitty speakers on the computer at work, and it sounded very different to how I remember it at the studio.

When listening to it on headphones, I kept finding little things in the mix which annoyed me, which hadn't been picked up on when listening back through monitors (editing mistakes in the vocal, mistakes in automation), so I think it is crucial to playback through a lot of different systems/monitors/headphones to make sure there aren't any little surprises lurking in the mix.

Cheers,

Tom.

I find my mixes done on headphones actually translate much better - and I do agree that details such as clicky edits, odd noises and all kinds on small nasties that are glaringly obvious on cans will often get past you on speakers.

I don't consider myself exceptional, but I can do a good mix on my cans. I think it's just what you get used to.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I mainly mix using a pair of Senny HD25's and every now and then cross reference the mix on a pair of Spirit A2's. I also have a listen in the car and on one of the hi-fi's around the house. And then sometimes if I can be arsed, will have a listen through one of the TV's.

The key for me getting a good mix is asking friends who are "in-the-know" to give the track a listen through their monitoring system and provide feedback. This to me is vital, as several days/weeks of tweaking & noodling often leaves my ears feeling like two rotten dish cloths hanging from the side of my mashed-up head!

I would have thought fatigue would play a part if mixing only on phones, being an unnatural environment as pointed out above by James and Liz. I know i cant take it for long (not the best phones though). I think its really good going being able to do it though.
I dont have a great room for monitoring or great monitors but i suppose you get used to them over time and how they relate to other systems/environments. I love listening to monitors but headphones are great, especially like Elf says for details as long as you know when to draw the line on what is acceptable imperfections.
As a first line of check we always like the car test (how cd sounds in fellow musicians modern car) which seems to give us a rough indication as to whether it sinks or swims as i think it does tend to take out alot of the room problems i have, but im not sure what others think about this. Saying that, a good set of headphones is the next purchase for me.

Cheers

Peter

Quote Zukan:

---

Happy B'Day John.

---

Thanks Zukan (been away for a few days).

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote:

---

...Saying that, though, my band's EP was mixed by a very talented producer/engineer in a great sounding room through some great monitors, and it sounded huge when played back at the studio. Once I had got the finished article, I played it through headphones, my home stereo, my car, and through some shitty speakers on the computer at work, and it sounded very different to how I remember it at the studio.

When listening to it on headphones, I kept finding little things in the mix which annoyed me, which hadn't been picked up on when listening back through monitors (editing mistakes in the vocal, mistakes in automation), so I think it is crucial to playback through a lot of different systems/monitors/headphones to make sure there aren't any little surprises lurking in the mix.

---

This is exactly why one must be careful when hearing so-called "talented" engineers mix things on their monitors in their studios. You can't know for certain that their work is translating without cross referencing their studio's playback sound with the sounds on other systems outside of their environment. You also might benefit from a clear conversation about their strategy and intent with mixing. If they give you any other answer besides making the mix sound great everywhere, think about running away. I know a lot of engineers, especially those that fancy themselves talented, get irritated when you question them, but it's necessary if you're paying them money to get things right. Truthfully, good rooms to mix in are not as widespread as one might think, even in big, expensive studios. A lot of engineers make it work despite the flaws in their rooms and monitoring. Then there are those that just don't turn in the greatest work despite the money they've spent on their gear and the money you've spent paying them. If it doesn't sound great almost everywhere you play it back then the process went wrong and it's not that the engineer mixed with or without headphones that is to blame. It's that the engineer either didn't know how, dropped the ball that time or failed to commit to making damn sure the mix translated well.

Furthermore, it's very, very easy to be deceived into thinking something sounds good when it's played back either too loudly in general or it's played back through an inaccurate system and room. Call me contrary. But I simply don't think that most of the people that claim to be able to turn in great mixes in either inaccurate rooms or with faulty systems (and that includes headphones to me) can actually do so. I simply haven't heard enough verifiable results to confirm that argument as valid. I think it's possible. But I think it's out of the reach of the vast majority of people who will try. I also think that most of the folks that rely on headphones primarily haven't had the wonderful experience of consistently using high quality monitoring in a high quality room. They might think they have. But I'm almost certain that anyone who has gotten used to truly fine monitoring in a great room wouldn't enjoy the practice of headphones mixing nearly as much.

Liz

--------------------
MIRRORMIX STUDIO
blog

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

Quote EnlightenedHand:

---

Furthermore, it's very, very easy to be deceived into thinking something sounds good when it's played back either too loudly in general or it's played back through an inaccurate system and room. Call me contrary. But I simply don't think that most of the people that claim to be able to turn in great mixes in either inaccurate rooms or with faulty systems (and that includes headphones to me) can actually do so. I simply haven't heard enough verifiable results to confirm that argument as valid. I think it's possible. But I think it's out of the reach of the vast majority of people who will try. I also think that most of the folks that rely on headphones primarily haven't had the wonderful experience of consistently using high quality monitoring in a high quality room. They might think they have. But I'm almost certain that anyone who has gotten used to truly fine monitoring in a great room wouldn't enjoy the practice of headphones mixing nearly as much.

Liz

---

Well I think it is in the eye of the beholder. I believe my mixes to stack up as good as they need to. Not looking for perfect mixes, just comparable to commercial release given what we have to work with and something that when people listen to go "Wow this sounds really good". When you don't have all the good stuff, the good rooms, the expensive monitors, the perfect live rooms and vocal booths etc. etc. you learn to work with what you have and to get the best out of your gear and ability. I am not about to sit back and pout and let my lack of things stop me from doing or because I don't have the "pro" or "perfect" setup or refuse to mix because some "pros" think the results cannot be any good. Hell pro's had to not be pro's at one point so we all just have to getter done. If you want "perfect" mixes then all that high quality stuff matters, but as I always try and remind myself, I make music not for engineers but for fans and listeners, and getting a great mix on headphones is quite easy once you are practiced enough. They have to be checked on other headphones, Monitors, crappy desktop speakers and the car, but it just isn't as hard as some make it out to be.

In a perfect World I would be typing this from a multi million dollar studio with the best of everything, but I think we all know the World is far from perfect.

Quote Imran500:

---

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

---

Definitely not. Anything that messes with the raw sound is bad news in my opinion. You really don't need anything like that to get a good mix on cans - just try it and get a feel for it. Between headphones and my car stereo I can get the mix!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

---

Why not indeed!

It's precisely what I do. 80% of my mix in headphones, then a few speaker checks to get the bass balance right. Job done.

Works for me...

---

If I may ask, why is it you have to get the bass balance right using monitors, is the bass too loud or too soft on headphones compared to listening in a room with monitors?

mgbr

Quote MGBR:

---

Quote The Elf:

---

It's precisely what I do. 80% of my mix in headphones, then a few speaker checks to get the bass balance right. Job done.

---

If I may ask, why is it you have to get the bass balance right using monitors, is the bass too loud or too soft on headphones compared to listening in a room with monitors?

---

My conversion to cans was a very slow realisation over a number of years. A big reason was simply to allow me to concentrate while the bands were happily chatting behind me. I eventually found myself doing more and more of the work in cans...

When I first took to doing the actual mix in headphones I found most were bass-light. These days my mixes are either pretty much on the money, or occasionally bass-heavy. I use much, much better cans nowadays, but I suspect it really is just familiarity. I'd actually hate to work only in speakers.

FWIW I get my kick/bass balance by the 'finger on the speaker cone' method. I could still stay in cans!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

---

Quote Imran500:

---

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

---

Definitely not. Anything that messes with the raw sound is bad news in my opinion. You really don't need anything like that to get a good mix on cans - just try it and get a feel for it. Between headphones and my car stereo I can get the mix!

---

Ok cool! By the way I was wondering what headphones you use?

Quote The Elf:

---

Quote MGBR:

---

Quote The Elf:

---

It's precisely what I do. 80% of my mix in headphones, then a few speaker checks to get the bass balance right. Job done.

---

If I may ask, why is it you have to get the bass balance right using monitors, is the bass too loud or too soft on headphones compared to listening in a room with monitors?

---

My conversion to cans was a very slow realisation over a number of years. A big reason was simply to allow me to concentrate while the bands were happily chatting behind me. I eventually found myself doing more and more of the work in cans...

When I first took to doing the actual mix in headphones I found most were bass-light. These days my mixes are either pretty much on the money, or occasionally bass-heavy. I use much, much better cans nowadays, but I suspect it really is just familiarity. I'd actually hate to work only in speakers.

FWIW I get my kick/bass balance by the 'finger on the speaker cone' method. I could still stay in cans!

---

So if I understand correctly you have more lows on your headphones than on your monitors?
That's what I have too and I was wondering if that was the way it should be or that my monitor placement was way off.

mgbr

Quote MGBR:

---

So if I understand correctly you have more lows on your headphones than on your monitors?
That's what I have too and I was wondering if that was the way it should be or that my monitor placement was way off.

---

I don't think it's quite that. Certainly, before I discovered the joys of quality headphones I was probably hearing a bass-heavy mix, leading to me mixing bass-shy. These days I use better phones and I'm better at mixing. Who knows?...

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote MGBR:

---

So if I understand correctly you have more lows on your headphones than on your monitors?
That's what I have too and I was wondering if that was the way it should be or that my monitor placement was way off.

mgbr

---

Not to make a heavy generalization, but headphone bass response is not done well on cheaper headphones. Of the various $20-$50 headphones I've received as gifts, they've gone from not being able to hear the kick, to hearing almost nothing but the kick and bass.

It's a hard thing to get right. If you're not certain of your mix's bass levels, try it on as many systems as you can.

--------------------
gentle robot - chapel hill rock band

I use Beyerdynamic DT770s (which are pretty good I think) but seeing as this is turning into a more permanent way of working I might have to upgrade to some mentioned in the SOS article, HD650s or K701s

For me, I'm afraid I just can't seem to feel the music unless I have that rumbling at my diaphram that only large drivers can give. For editing and other technical work a good set of headphones is fine - although I do get jumpy if I can't hear the room around me - but for writing and the final stages of mixing I enjoy myself much more if using speakers, either with a decent extension or a sub. Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I haven't done it and would prefer to not have to try.

Quote:

---

...I don't have the "pro" or "perfect" setup or refuse to mix because some "pros" think the results cannot be any good. Hell pro's had to not be pro's at one point so we all just have to getter done. If you want "perfect" mixes then all that high quality stuff matters, but as I always try and remind myself, I make music not for engineers but for fans and listeners, and getting a great mix on headphones is quite easy once you are practiced enough. They have to be checked on other headphones, Monitors, crappy desktop speakers and the car, but it just isn't as hard as some make it out to be.

In a perfect World I would be typing this from a multi million dollar studio with the best of everything, but I think we all know the World is far from perfect.

---

We all make music for the average listener. But the bottom line for me is that if it sounds good then it IS good. However, as often as it is claimed, I just don't hear enough of the proof in the mixes that I've heard from various headphone advocates to convince me that most people that are using headphones are able to turn in great mixes with them. I for one can mix on headphones. I had to out of necessity a while ago and I got pretty good at it. That being said, it's no easy task at all. The resulting decent mixes don't justify the time and effort required to get it right through cross referencing and second guessing. It's just not worth it to me. It's especially not worth it when one can easily spend $2000 and have a reasonable monitoring system (say ADAM A7 set) and a reasonably treated room and be MUCH further ahead of a headphone mixer in terms of consistency of translation and ease of implementation of the mixing process. It's just a win all around. Headphone mixing requires a load of special consideration that makes it at the very least inefficient, at the most unattainable for most people.

To be clear, I've never said it can't be done. It can and I have done it and heard others do it. I'm saying it's unlikely that most people will ever get to the point that they themselves can do it well enough to compete commercially and they would have a better chance (and an easier time) of quality mixing if done on a decent monitoring system in a decent room.

Liz

--------------------
MIRRORMIX STUDIO
blog

Quote Imran500:

---

Quote The Elf:

---

Quote Imran500:

---

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

---

Definitely not. Anything that messes with the raw sound is bad news in my opinion. You really don't need anything like that to get a good mix on cans - just try it and get a feel for it. Between headphones and my car stereo I can get the mix!

---

Ok cool! By the way I was wondering what headphones you use?

---

AKG K701

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Cool - I take it you use a headphone amp, how much would I be looking to spend minimun on one of those

Quote Imran500:

---

Cool - I take it you use a headphone amp, how much would I be looking to spend minimun on one of those

---

No separate headphone amp - straight out of my RME Fireface headphone output.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

One of my students has a poor listening environment in his studio and we talked endlessly about treating the room etc, hell, I even suggested a build for an acoustic enclosure just to get past his bedroom setup.

Budget and the fact that it was his bedroom (missus issue) he had to find an alternative.
I recommended he get the AKG 701s and try to work with them while we went through his sound design classes.

He feels that Nirvana has been attained. He 'hears' everything now, and the cans are good enough for him to conduct rough mixes on and get near the ball park.

Headphones can be a great workaround for poor listening environments and if they are good enough they can even be used for rough mixing guides.

I personally wouldn't rely on them for the mixes I do, but I resolutely use them in conjunction with my monitors in a treated room.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Imran500:

---

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

---

Only just noticed your post Imran500.

I discussed crossfeed plug-ins in some depth in my January 2007 feature 'Mixing On Headphones', and mentioned several in there that are freeware:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm

I spent many hours tweaking the various parameters on the main one I used in that research, attempting to mimic loudspeakers under headphones, and was quite pleased at the results at the time. I found them helpful then, and crossfeed plug-ins are very useful for getting rid of any hard-panned sounds on existing recordings that will only be heard through one ear. This sounds very unnatural to most people, and can even cause headaches and induce nausea over prolonged periods.

However, since then I've found myself using them less ad less, and nowadays not at all for my own mixes. While they are great for improving odd-sounding commercial tracks that weren't recorded with headphones in mind, I feel it's more important to make sure your own mixes sound good on both headphones and loudspeakers.

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers. Many musicians have a set of pan-control starting points that they always use with loudspeakers, such as central, quarter, half or full pan in each direction, and you can use exactly the same guideline positions as headphone mix starting points (just relaxing the full pan settings slightly) until you adapt to the different width.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote Martin Walker:

---

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers.

---

I'll turn a vice into a virtue by saying that mixing in cans actually makes me question and tune my panning a lot more. Those 20-feet wide drum kits and 'head inside the piano' moments are instantly obvious in phones. You can also spot the 'wide mono' trap.

It also helps to ensure you think about some ambience for tracks that you are panning wide, because dry sounds hard panned often feel uncomfortably lonely and need something happening in the rest of the stereo field to pull them into the mix. I find that the decisions I make due to the above translate to a mix that gels together better in speakers. I often come out of the cans, bring up the speakers and have a 'wow!' moment!

Whilst I agree that you need to get out into speakers at some point, I honestly can get most of the way there in cans - maybe I *am* unusual in this (I hadn't really questioned it to be honest!), but it certainly works for me and the artists I work with.

It's not for everyone, but if it becomes a necessity you can not only make it work, but make it work very well indeed in my experience.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Damn, I've been using the 'can't work on headphones' excuse for making noise to my wife for years at home! If she reads this then I'll only be allowed to use my monitors as a sanity check!
But seriously, I think I should be doing a bit more than a cursory click and crackle test on cans. When using them I really don't pay enough attention to the expanded stereo field to make decisions in that area and it certainly makes sense to do so.

Quote The Elf:

---

It also helps to ensure you think about some ambience for tracks that you are panning wide, because dry sounds hard panned often feel uncomfortably lonely and need something happening in the rest of the stereo field to pull them into the mix. I find that the decisions I make due to the above translate to a mix that gels together better in speakers. I often come out of the cans, bring up the speakers and have a 'wow!' moment!

---

Exactly my experience as well - as long as you get used to how differently mixes will sound under headphones, expect to make them wider but avoid those disorientating 'sound in one ear only' issues, getting a mix to work well in headphones CAN result in an even better loudspeaker experience when you double check in the real world.

Quote:

---

Whilst I agree that you need to get out into speakers at some point, I honestly can get most of the way there in cans - maybe I *am* unusual in this (I hadn't really questioned it to be honest!), but it certainly works for me and the artists I work with

---

I'm exactly the same. Just get used to your headphones, do reality checks occasionally, and practice.

We really have to make mixes that sound good on cans as well as loudspeakers nowadays, since so many people listen that way.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote The Elf:

---

Those 20-feet wide drum kits

---

IMHO, if done well, those 20-foot wide drum kits can sound great.

Anyway, if the keyboard player can have his synth panned hugely wide in stereo, then why not my drums...

I come at this from a perspective of attempting to use the toys to create something interesting. Obviously if I was going for a realistic acoustic sound, things would be different.

Quote Martin Walker:

---

Quote Imran500:

---

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

---

Only just noticed your post Imran500.

I discussed crossfeed plug-ins in some depth in my January 2007 feature 'Mixing On Headphones', and mentioned several in there that are freeware:

<a href="/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm" target="_blank">www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm</a>< br />
I spent many hours tweaking the various parameters on the main one I used in that research, attempting to mimic loudspeakers under headphones, and was quite pleased at the results at the time. I found them helpful then, and crossfeed plug-ins are very useful for getting rid of any hard-panned sounds on existing recordings that will only be heard through one ear. This sounds very unnatural to most people, and can even cause headaches and induce nausea over prolonged periods.

However, since then I've found myself using them less ad less, and nowadays not at all for my own mixes. While they are great for improving odd-sounding commercial tracks that weren't recorded with headphones in mind, I feel it's more important to make sure your own mixes sound good on both headphones and loudspeakers.

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers. Many musicians have a set of pan-control starting points that they always use with loudspeakers, such as central, quarter, half or full pan in each direction, and you can use exactly the same guideline positions as headphone mix starting points (just relaxing the full pan settings slightly) until you adapt to the different width.


Martin

---

Oops sorry forgot to mention that your link for the free one had died which is why I was asking - I had read about those in your article!

Quote The Elf:

---

Quote Martin Walker:

---

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers.

---

I'll turn a vice into a virtue by saying that mixing in cans actually makes me question and tune my panning a lot more. Those 20-feet wide drum kits and 'head inside the piano' moments are instantly obvious in phones. You can also spot the 'wide mono' trap.

It also helps to ensure you think about some ambience for tracks that you are panning wide, because dry sounds hard panned often feel uncomfortably lonely and need something happening in the rest of the stereo field to pull them into the mix. I find that the decisions I make due to the above translate to a mix that gels together better in speakers. I often come out of the cans, bring up the speakers and have a 'wow!' moment!

Whilst I agree that you need to get out into speakers at some point, I honestly can get most of the way there in cans - maybe I *am* unusual in this (I hadn't really questioned it to be honest!), but it certainly works for me and the artists I work with.

It's not for everyone, but if it becomes a necessity you can not only make it work, but make it work very well indeed in my experience.

---

Indeed. And add reverb tails into the equation.
This often confuses people even more than low energy and pan issues.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Imran500:

---

Oops sorry forgot to mention that your link for the free one had died which is why I was asking - I had read about those in your article!

---

Hi Imran500!

Here's another free crossfeed plug-in for you (the catchily-named HDPHX ):

http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtml

It works well and doesn't need any fiddly setting up to suit your particular ears - you really can just plug it in and play through it, as I discussed in my September 2007 PC Notes column:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles/pcnotes_0907.htm


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

My first post here. GREAT forum, by the way.
For all those mixing on headphones, I strongly recommend a small, cheap, totally amazing plugin called Isone. I tried other similar plugs (redline monitor, hdpx) and didn't like them at all, but this one literally blew me away.

Find it here:
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_isone_pro.htm

It totally changed my perspective about mixing on headphones.

I also look forward to try the VRM technology by Focusrite (see the new Saffire 24 pro dsp). Hope to see a review on SOS about it ...

G.

I've just written the Pro24 DSP review, concentrating on the VRM technology.

It certainly does work pretty well, and is a huge step up from normal headphone monitoring, and a useful improvement on the typical cross-feed headphone systems too.

I was a little disappointed with the range of simulated speakers and environments on offer... which are essentially typical bedroom or small project studio fodder. That seems to me to be a lost opportunity as I was expecting to be transported to a superb acoustic environment with superb full range speakers, rather than a small bedroom with small two-way budget monitors.

But to be fair this is a proof-of-concept product and there are plans to develop it much further in future products -- and that bodes well.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Martin Walker:

---

Quote Imran500:

---

Oops sorry forgot to mention that your link for the free one had died which is why I was asking - I had read about those in your article!

---

Hi Imran500!

Here's another free crossfeed plug-in for you (the catchily-named HDPHX ):

http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtml

It works well and doesn't need any fiddly setting up to suit your particular ears - you really can just plug it in and play through it, as I discussed in my September 2007 PC Notes column:

<a href="/sos/sep07/articles/pcnotes_0907.htm" target="_blank">www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles/pcnotes_0907.htm</a>


Martin

---

Thanks!

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

I've just written the Pro24 DSP review, concentrating on the VRM technology.

It certainly does work pretty well, and is a huge step up from normal headphone monitoring, and a useful improvement on the typical cross-feed headphone systems too.

I was a little disappointed with the range of simulated speakers and environments on offer... which are essentially typical bedroom or small project studio fodder. That seems to me to be a lost opportunity as I was expecting to be transported to a superb acoustic environment with superb full range speakers, rather than a small bedroom with small two-way budget monitors.

But to be fair this is a proof-of-concept product and there are plans to develop it much further in future products -- and that bodes well.

hugh

---

Damn that would have been so cool for us headphone mixers if they'd simulated pro-environments!

I'm in the market for a new audio interface as well

Quote giomasino:

---

My first post here. GREAT forum, by the way.
For all those mixing on headphones, I strongly recommend a small, cheap, totally amazing plugin called Isone. I tried other similar plugs (redline monitor, hdpx) and didn't like them at all, but this one literally blew me away.

Find it here:
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_isone_pro.htm

It totally changed my perspective about mixing on headphones.

---

Hi giomasino, and welcome to the SOS Forums!

Thanks also for that link - I've always been impressed by Jeroen Breebaart's plug-ins, but I hadn't noticed that one before.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Thanks Hugh, I really look forward to read your review. I'm considering buying the product, but there's no serious reviews around yet, so I REALLY look forward to yours ... ehm ... maybe I'm asking too much, but .. .. could you give us a very brief anticipation of your overall impression (sound quality especially - apart from VRM)? Thumbs up or down?
Thanks G.

My bad, I just saw the review of the Saffire Pro 24 on August SOS. So I guess that most of the things said for the Pro 24 apply to the Pro 24 DSP as well ..
G.

Hi Martin, really interesting thread. I would hazard a guess that most SOS readers occasionally find themselves in a position where they have no choice but to mix using headphones. Indeed, I remember this topic being discussed previously in the forum. Maybe it's worth making this thread a "sticky", as it seems to cover many important points relating to mixing on headphones.

Quote giomasino:

---

My first post here. GREAT forum, by the way.
For all those mixing on headphones, I strongly recommend a small, cheap, totally amazing plugin called Isone. I tried other similar plugs (redline monitor, hdpx) and didn't like them at all, but this one literally blew me away.

Find it here:
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_isone_pro.htm

It totally changed my perspective about mixing on headphones.

I also look forward to try the VRM technology by Focusrite (see the new Saffire 24 pro dsp). Hope to see a review on SOS about it ...

G.

---

That plugin is great - I just stuck on the 'reference' preset and I actually felt like my headphones had fallen off

How do you personally set it up Giomasino?

I remain very, very wary of these 'turn your headphones into speakers' processes. I want as little as possible sitting between me and the raw audio when I'm mixing. Any slight change in the way the audio is presented will lead to mix decisions you may regret, e.g. over-exaggerated panning due to channel cross-feed.

They may be impressive in creating an illusion, but will mixes done through them translate? Only time will tell, I suppose.

Would love to hear how you guys get on with them.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Yeah I'm probably going to have to do a couple of mixes to compare - by the way Martin can you have a go on this plugin and tell us your thoughts?

Quote The Elf:

---

FWIW I get my kick/bass balance by the 'finger on the speaker cone' method.

---

can you elaborate further? i'm not familiar with this one.

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

---

Quote The Elf:

---

FWIW I get my kick/bass balance by the 'finger on the speaker cone' method.

---

can you elaborate further? i'm not familiar with this one.

---

Ooh! This is going to be a tough one!

The theory is simple - put your finger lightly on a bass driver cone and you can feel the cone moving. Some folks (and I'm one!) have a knack of being able to feel the cone and use the sensation to make decisions about the bass content of the mix.

I most often use this method to get the balance between kick and bass.

The tough bit is telling you *how* to do it, because it's not something I can easily explain - it just works for me! The most obvious might be if the track sounds fine, but the cone is leaping with every kick drum. That tells you there's a sub-frequency in the kick that you're not picking up by listening, but is using up a lot of your headroom.

I can pick up other information too, such as whether the bass and kick are fighting over the same frequencies (more loss of mix headroom), or whether my kick drum is too long/short for the pulse of the track. It even helps me to tell whether I've got the sub-100Hz space clean of other instruments to give the kick and bass the room they need.

It's another of those little tricks I've picked up, thought I was the only one, then found that lots of people do it; I've certainly read and heard reports of other speaker-fondlers over the years. I used to think I was the only engineer who went and listened to my mix from another room too!

I dread to think if I have any strange production habits that no-one else does - then I know I've lost it!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

...I'm joining this long after everyone else has arrived and not read in detail every post on this, so sorry if I've repeated anything already said...

I recently had the experience of listening to a piece of music in a properly sound-treated listening environment; it belonged to a professional composer who writes and produces music on commission for films and tv etc so he has to deliver.
Although the piece of music was not what I would have chosen - the intro to "Money For Nothing" - it was astonishing to hear in such an environment. Close your eyes and you can almost picture each member of the band and where they're standing; not just "a bit to the left" but how far back or front they sound. When Knopfler started singing it was like he was pretty much straight in front of me.
I imagine this - not just width but depth as well - is nigh on impossible to get with a set of cans. And equally difficult, it must be said, without a properly treated room. Then again, if people aren't going to be listening in that sort of environment, and you're not hoping to shift "Brothers In Arms" quantities of units, is it really necessary?

I've generally mixed on cans because it's easier to pick up on detail that you may otherwise miss on speakers (as has been mentioned above); the listening experience is also better (particularly with my pretty basic set-up). But I do always, always, cross-reference with speakers.

Ultimately I suppose that if your listening environment is less then ideal, then cans ought to be the way to go. However, if I had the money, time and space, I would get a properly treated room and sit back and enjoy...!

Quote The Bunk:

---

I imagine this - not just width but depth as well - is nigh on impossible to get with a set of cans.

---

Sorry, but I disagree. I can only speak for myself, but yes, I *can* get this degree of depth and width in phones. Without it I couldn't produce the mixes I do.

Too many people only have experience of ropey 'hi-fi' headphones and don't know the joys of quality reference phones. The difference is just as profound as between cheap speakers an untreated bedroom studio and reference monitors in a dedicated mastering environment.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

---

Quote onesecondglance:

---

Quote The Elf:

---

FWIW I get my kick/bass balance by the 'finger on the speaker cone' method.

---

can you elaborate further? i'm not familiar with this one.

---

[Elf elaborates]

---

thanks for this - gonna have to experiment with this technique next time i do a mix!

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

I agree with The Elf - I find myself using my HD650's more and more nowadays for mixing and sound design purposes, because I can hear everything so clearly from side to side and front to back.

I find myself using my ATC monitors as a second opinion at the bass end, but generally if the mix soudns good in my phones it tends to sound even better through the loudspeakers, but not necessarily the other way round


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote The Elf:

---

They may be impressive in creating an illusion, but will mixes done through them translate? Only time will tell, I suppose.
Would love to hear how you guys get on with them.

---

Well, no listening environment is "perfect" for mixing - not even the best studio in the world, because while a perfectly neutral room will give you the best detail, the end users of your mix will not listen in such a room.

I think that the best way to mix is to cross-reference as much as you can, no matter how good (or how bad) is your mixing environment. So, while my suggestion is NOT to rely only on headphones, I also think that this is equally true for ANY listening environment, even the best ones.

I understand that many people are very "suspicious" about mixing on headphones, but I think this is wrong. Headphones is just another listening environment, one that can be useful for some aspects of the mixing and "dangerous" for other aspects (again, like ANY environment). Also, it is becoming a very important reference, since so many people now listen music on headphones.

Sorry for my english, by the way ..

Quote Imran500:

---

Quote giomasino:

---

My first post here. GREAT forum, by the way.
For all those mixing on headphones, I strongly recommend a small, cheap, totally amazing plugin called Isone. I tried other similar plugs (redline monitor, hdpx) and didn't like them at all, but this one literally blew me away.

Find it here:
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_isone_pro.htm

It totally changed my perspective about mixing on headphones.

I also look forward to try the VRM technology by Focusrite (see the new Saffire 24 pro dsp). Hope to see a review on SOS about it ...

G.

---

That plugin is great - I just stuck on the 'reference' preset and I actually felt like my headphones had fallen off

How do you personally set it up Giomasino?

---

I set at very moderate settings, in general. Small room, average cues. It's very personal, I think. It also depends on the cans you're using. In fact, I had a very interesting experience with Isone. I first tried it with a relatively cheap pair of headphones, and it blew my mind away. I mean, I thought it was something close to a miracle. Then, I tried with my AKG k701, which is what I use for my mixing sessions (no, I dont mix entirely on headphones, but I do use them regularly) and the difference that Isone made was much smaller. Still worthwhile (in fact I bought the plugin), but much, much smaller. I'm not sure about the significance of this comparison. To me, it means that the K701 are actually excellent for mixing, as they can recreate a sense of "space" that other headphones cannot recreate - this is a feeling that I immediately felt the first time I tried the K701, but now I am pretty sure that this is quite true.

(I'm not implying that K701 are best for mixing of course, I'm sure there are others that are as good or better.)

G.

Quote The Elf:

---

Quote The Bunk:

---

I imagine this - not just width but depth as well - is nigh on impossible to get with a set of cans.

---

Sorry, but I disagree. I can only speak for myself, but yes, I *can* get this degree of depth and width in phones. Without it I couldn't produce the mixes I do.

Too many people only have experience of ropey 'hi-fi' headphones and don't know the joys of quality reference phones. The difference is just as profound as between cheap speakers an untreated bedroom studio and reference monitors in a dedicated mastering environment.

---

...yep, a fair point. I should also have pointed out that my headphones are, ahem, budget-end.

Great content in this thread. But, as always with this type of query, the advice usually ends up as 'use both'.

That is what I do but then I mix commercially and you can make great use of both, but I have also mixed on cans only and still been happy with the results.

If you do not have the luxury of a treated room, good monitors and amp, then a good quality set of cans is the best way forward.

Detail matched with spatial imaging is the best combination for producing a truthful mix.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote giomasino:

---

Quote Imran500:

---

Quote giomasino:

---

My first post here. GREAT forum, by the way.
For all those mixing on headphones, I strongly recommend a small, cheap, totally amazing plugin called Isone. I tried other similar plugs (redline monitor, hdpx) and didn't like them at all, but this one literally blew me away.

Find it here:
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_isone_pro.htm

It totally changed my perspective about mixing on headphones.

I also look forward to try the VRM technology by Focusrite (see the new Saffire 24 pro dsp). Hope to see a review on SOS about it ...

G.

---

That plugin is great - I just stuck on the 'reference' preset and I actually felt like my headphones had fallen off

How do you personally set it up Giomasino?

---

I set at very moderate settings, in general. Small room, average cues. It's very personal, I think. It also depends on the cans you're using. In fact, I had a very interesting experience with Isone. I first tried it with a relatively cheap pair of headphones, and it blew my mind away. I mean, I thought it was something close to a miracle. Then, I tried with my AKG k701, which is what I use for my mixing sessions (no, I dont mix entirely on headphones, but I do use them regularly) and the difference that Isone made was much smaller. Still worthwhile (in fact I bought the plugin), but much, much smaller. I'm not sure about the significance of this comparison. To me, it means that the K701 are actually excellent for mixing, as they can recreate a sense of "space" that other headphones cannot recreate - this is a feeling that I immediately felt the first time I tried the K701, but now I am pretty sure that this is quite true.

(I'm not implying that K701 are best for mixing of course, I'm sure there are others that are as good or better.)

G.

---

I use Beyerdynamic DT770s which are not cheapo headphones but not pro ones either. It will be interesting to see how stuff translates using Isone and these headphones. I'll probably invest in a pair of K701s at some point in the future myself.

Anyone heard of Redline Monitor? According to the blurb :

Redline Monitor is a listening, mixing, and mastering tool. It replaces the extreme stereo separation that is characteristic for headphones with the detailed stereo image of near-field monitor speakers.

http://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/

It's effectively a crossfeed plug-in with added reverb effect to give you the 'feel' of a room.

I've tried combinations like this in the past (WaveArts Panorama for instance) and while useful tools, I wouldn't rely on them to fully convey the loudspeaker experience. Remember, you're replacing the room acoustic with a reverb plug-in, so unless that's really good it won't sound like a real space.

Moreover, you've still got to make your mixes sound good without it for those headphone listeners out there.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Great thread guys.

well I've taken the plunge. After 2 years working with relativly good, but bright monitors. ( Tannoy Precision 6D's) in an untreated room, and only using HiFi headphones for reference, I've got a pair of Grado SR80i's ( headphone amp on the way).
The difference is amazing. Admittedly these are still budget 'phones, but removing the ( untreated )room from the equasion transforms the mixing process.

Quote Imran500:

---

Anyone heard of Redline Monitor?

---

Yes I tried it, but I think Isone is definitely better than RedLine Monitor. It seems to be based on a more sophisticated technology, and to me the end result is far superior. As I said, I think the advantage depends a lot on the kind of headphones you're using. With my old AKG K171 the advantage of Isone is simply amazing, not even close to what Red Line can do, while with my AKG K701 it seems (to my ears) much more subtle.
G.

Yes, Grados are excellent cans. Not widely enough known in the UK IMO.

--------------------
"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

I believe working with monitors is a much more enjoyable, studio (working with clients behind you) and easy way than headphones.

I do not agree about the "balance" left-right issue, come on, are you really that creative about panning the elements in the mix?

The bass end, reverbs and eq's depends on each kind of mixing, try judging the bass for an electronic artist, a folk dude or a death metal band with the same rule and without checking it in every kind of system before going into the mastering...that would be unprofessional and unconvenient, more than a gear choice.

What Liz says about the pro studios and the chance to do this and that is impossible for a majority. Some of us take this as a hobby and not as a way of living. Spending 2000 when you are married, have children, making use of a room to "treat it" for your hobby and spend your free time listening to loud music in your home may not be a grown up choice.

I believe anyone can get used to different kind of gears, as a good guitarist get his way around different types of guitars and styles in general. A good EAR TRAINED (this means not only listening to the favourite records) recording hobbyst or professional, will be able to pull out a decent mix in an unfamiliar environment and a very good mix in his usual work place.

This of course is only my opinion.