Quote ken long:

---

But even a seasoned pro will need to learn that if they are to adapt and use different studios with different consoles. And different DAWs implement these things differently so there's always going to be some degree of adjustment in either case. I would say that the routing options are perhaps the most daunting aspect of these consoles.

---

You're also going to be running several different headphone mixes, mucking about with the external patchbay e.g. for inserts, comfort reverbs etc, remembering to mute unused channels to manage your noise floor and finding the desk's sweet spot where you're hitting the bus hard enough but not too hard for the sort of sound you want, and which is appropriate to the track... lot of black art stuff going on under the hood.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

lot of black art stuff going on under the hood.

---

Sure, and its that understanding of components which will differentiate a pro from a novice. But honestly, finding the sweet spot on any desk comes with experience and follows on from each particular studio set up. No "pro" can walk into a room they've never been in, with a console setup they've never used and get the best out of it STRAIGHT OFF. For one, each console behaves differently.

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

I will just waltz in and implement all I have learnt from my SSL on Propeller Heads Record.
So there

I think if you have a UAD card you're pretty much an expert on Neve, SSL, all analogue gear in general really ...

Of course, no amount of plugin experience would really prepare you, but if you understood the uad 88rs plugin inside out, I can't help thinking it'd be a good start. It's a bloody complex plugin, with all it's hysteresis modelling etc.

Quote ken long:

---

Oh, I know what you're saying Iris. But even a seasoned pro will need to learn that if they are to adapt and use different studios with different consoles.

---

errrr scuse me...

seasoned pro... kind of by definition, will already be in that position... and have the experience.... that's the meaning of the word seasoned.....

thus... seasoned pro, in and working from the word go.

amateur, needs a course first... which in the interests of fairness, the time for which should be removed from their session time....



as much as anything else, the difference between the dilettante and the pro, is the experience as much as , if not more than, any innate talent... , both with specifics, and with general operational concepts... the ability to read a label, and understand what it means, even if it's a bit cryptic and relies on 3 other function labels elsewhere on the desk... to be understood , and comprehend both what it does, and how to use it, even if they've never actually used that particular desk before...

when it gets "fun" is when people have had bespoke additional functions added to a desk, and not labelled them at all....

(0vu has some fun raindirk stories about that idea... )

Quote Jenni:

---

But I can only assume a bad review didn't happen because by sheer miracle SOS got the only unit that don't suffer from the bugs experienced by many users in the real world who don't get paid by Korg.
Or did that one slip past you Hugh?

---

Actually, I haven't had time to sit and read the December issue yet. Been busy getting copy written up for the January issue But certainly egg on face for not knowing there was a Korg review in the issue.

But all I can say is, no-one gets paid by Korg (or any other manufacturer) for a 'good' review. There is such as thing as integrity... As for the alleged bugs, I obviously don't know anything about that. It would be a rare software based product that had none at all of course, but I presume that Paul Nagle didn't find any that troubled him enough to write about -- and I'm quite sure he would have mentioned any problems if he found any.

In my experience, often people complain about 'bugs' when they are simply trying to make the device do something it wasn't designed to do, or doesn't do something the way they think it should. Perhaps the bugs you're worried about are of that kind... I don't know. But clearly the machine Paul used worked pretty well in the ways he used it.

Quote:

---

Anything else you would like me to inform you about this months magazine or have you been on holiday and catching up?

---

I've actually been studing on a 'how to be really sarcastic and lose friends quickly' course Heard it worked wonders for you

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I suspect that EVERYONE that has been around a bit has 'fun' stories about those buttons!

Broadcast sites are notorious for them, generally as part of the talkback/production intercom systems but you also sometimes found them doing truly ODD things (One site I encountered had a button on the desk that would turn on the kettle in the staff room for example).
None were ever labelled (except sometimes as 1,2,3...).

There was a fun one I found in a rack room where someone had evidently had a problem with the cleaners fiddling with stuff, it was a red switch on a rack panel with an illuminated sign that read "Press to arm", when the button was pressed it changed to read "Release to detonate"!
That one I have subsequently copied for my own use, but my version has a #5 stadium flash concussion pyrotechnic wired to it!

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

added to which..... I somehow can't see Hugh going within 10 feet of such a device.. unless it comes with a hammond library... or paul happened to have one in the car on the way to the pub. not that he's not musical.... just doesn't seem ostensibly to be his thing...

i for one don;t read articles about such things till after i've read all the recording gear stuff first... offhand i don't think i recall seeing Hugh write any reviews of synths, samplers, and other such noise source devices...


(although there might be something nagging at the back of my mind about a hammond imitating device of some sort....)

what's more I can recall a number of reviews appearing in sos that have been less than bountiful in their praise.... indeed ,some that have been , what amounts to utterly scathing for a publication of this type...

I recall, for example, a set of Monitors (or two) that have garnered the summing up "i cannot think of a single thing to recommend these monitors"
(product sunk without trace... very rapidly)

if that doesn't send a message what the hell does?

a roland digital mixer that had questions asked about the electrical safety of it's construction.... (very rapidly withdrawn and i think redesigned)

the yamaha motif timing issues were i think raised in the review.....

and i know there have been others....

and the manufacturers know full well, if they send a piece of complete crap to SOS, it WILL get a crap review....

so many don;t send their crappier stuff.....

and SOS could not in fairness, finance the purchasing of every bit of kit on the market in order to ensure they get the rubbish to review as well as the good stuff.


(although i disagree with hugh on that point to some extent.... I think it would be rather useful to the readership to be told what devices to avoid at all cost..... and furthermore, that the manufacturers would further up their game if they knew this was something that would happen whether or not they sent it in for review... )

Quote idris y draig:

---

offhand i don't think i recall seeing Hugh write any reviews of synths, samplers, and other such noise source devices...

---

I have been known to review things that look a bit like Hammonds in the past, but you're right, these new fangled sampler things really aren't my bag man...

Quote:

---

I think it would be rather useful to the readership to be told what devices to avoid at all cost

---

Yes, I can see the argument, although it would have to be in the form of a brief hit list of the lame rather than waste whole pages on poor reviews...

...but I think basically we're too British to do such a thing. As my mum always used to say, if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all!

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote dmills:

---

(One site I encountered had a button on the desk that would turn on the kettle in the staff room for example).

---

Do want.

--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Just want to say that in all the freelance reviews I’ve done for the mag in the past I have not once been asked to retract or tone down any justifiable criticisms I have made.

On one occasion I did slate the device so much that the manufacturers felt moved to send open letters to the mag. The review and both their letters and my responses were published in full. Nothing hidden – no conspiracy. Compare this with another mag (now long gone) for whom I reviewed an appallingly bug-ridden keyboard, to find myself paid for my wordage, but the review never seeing the light of day.

From the outside it’s easy to see universally positive-ish reviews as being some sort of conspiracy, but it is the case that genuinely ‘bad’ gear simply doesn’t get out of the factory doors. Gear I have absolutely no time for would reasonably not be give to me for review, and if it is I would try to see it from a more typical user’s point of view. With that in mind you can’t simply label something as ‘poor’ simply because it doesn’t fit your desires/budget/methods/tastes.

As with most conspiracy theories, the truth is much more mundane, and far less entertaining.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Pete Kaine:

---

Quote dmills:

---

(One site I encountered had a button on the desk that would turn on the kettle in the staff room for example).

---

Do want.

---

you need to remember to include functionality that pages the secretary or runner to actually go and do stuff with the kettle once it's boiled... and indeed, calculate the time lag so that they get to the kettle just as it finishes boiling...

efficiency is what it's all about....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Jenni:

---

It may be a bit harsh Paul but why accept it?
If its the worlds best music recording magazine why not show the recording aspect off more instead of Korg.
Its been Korg for years now on the back cover.
Its just my opinion and like I said myself IM probably talking shite but its my opinion all the same.
I don't subscribe to the opinion of cheap gear and talent.
A cheap reverb sounds awful for example.
Just like cheap desk.
Talent will only get you so far before the gear lets you down.

---

As a hip-hop fan, you must be aware that a lot of respected hip-hop producers use "cheap" equipment to make their beats. The S950, SP12/1200 and MPC 60 are certainly not high fidelity, but are used by many big names. Admittedly it may be then mixed by a professional on a proper desk. I wouldn't expect that the producers or mix engineers own the equipment like SSLs, they may well be owned by the studio and are merely highered for the project.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

As far as SSL gear goes…

Yes, a lot of SSL gear is great. I know what an SSL channel can do for the cleanliness of my recordings and I know what it can bring along when I need some aggressive compression and EQ. The dynamics in a 9000 channel are bordering on magical in the way they seem to know how to bring the best out of a sound – that makes my life easier, so I’ll pay my money and make my choice.

Does it make you less of a musician/producer/engineer if you don’t have SSL. Nah!

Do I feel I have to knock other gear to make me feel better about how much I’ve spent? Nah!

Do I believe you can’t produce ANY style of music on pretty much ANY make of desk – NAH!

Like it or not, trying to perfect technical solutions is an expensive undertaking. The skills and expertise required are valuable, the tools are expensive and the esoteric hardware to solve the last 2% of a problem is expensive. That’s just a fact of life.

That doesn’t stop me admiring a company that can successfully exploit the ‘little worse and a little cheaper’ approach.

I don’t get this snobbery about gear. I honestly don’t care how much it cost. To aspire to/criticise expensive gear just because it is expensive is foolish IMO. To spurn/champion gear because it *isn’t* expensive is equally foolish (see this in action at another forum not far away…). In my rack I have a pair of Behringer units mounted just above a pair of SSL units – and I can justify them all, to my satisfaction at least. And that’s enough for me.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

---

In my rack I have a pair of Behringer units mounted just above a pair of SSL units

---

how could you put Behringer next to SSL, or even in the same studio...



--------------------
www.Lozjackson.com

Quote Max!:

---

you need to remember to include functionality that pages the secretary or runner to actually go and do stuff with the kettle once it's boiled... and indeed, calculate the time lag so that they get to the kettle just as it finishes boiling...

efficiency is what it's all about....

---

I'm thinking conveyor belt + microswitch + autopour sort of combination and keeping the tea/coffee to hand. I'm not quite worked out what to do with the milk through which maybe my downfall in all this.

Quote Bossman:

---

Quote The Elf:

---

In my rack I have a pair of Behringer units mounted just above a pair of SSL units

---

how could you put Behringer next to SSL, or even in the same studio...

---

Now, now. Everyone needs a decent doorstop in the studio.



--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

---

Quote Max!:

---

you need to remember to include functionality that pages the secretary or runner to actually go and do stuff with the kettle once it's boiled... and indeed, calculate the time lag so that they get to the kettle just as it finishes boiling...

efficiency is what it's all about....

---

I'm thinking conveyor belt + microswitch + autopour sort of combination and keeping the tea/coffee to hand. I'm not quite worked out what to do with the milk through which maybe my downfall in all this.

---

---

Isn't that what music tech students are for? I know hundreds literally, that would do this, On the efficiency front however....hmmm I find it hard enough getting them out of bed.

Quote:

---

Now, now. Everyone needs a decent doorstop in the studio.

---

Isn't that what C1000s are for

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

JamesSimpson Quote:

---

Now, now. Everyone needs a decent doorstop in the studio.

Quote JamesSimpson:

---

Isn't that what C1000s are for

---

---

No, *that's* what Music Tech Students are for.

I know one guy who uses small PMC's as doorstops

I read this thread, and the Young Guru article a few times, greatly. And I'm glad I don't dream any more of that romantic picture of an engineer at a huge SSL desk and meter bridges. Not because I have an SSL desk but because I now understand, after reading the last 15 engineers articles in SOS, that you really don't need an SSL to produce that hit track.

Tell you what though. If I made it big I'd love to have a moment behind an SSL, for the picture and to hear and understand these beasts!

And for the record I like Hip Hop/Rap too.

Back to Young Guru - I know there's room for every kind of music in SOS but what exactly is the point in telling us in detail about eq etc used on samples? We have no idea what the samples sound like.

--------------------
Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote idris y draig:

---

Quote ken long:

---

Oh, I know what you're saying Iris. But even a seasoned pro will need to learn that if they are to adapt and use different studios with different consoles.

---

errrr scuse me...

seasoned pro... kind of by definition, will already be in that position... and have the experience.... that's the meaning of the word seasoned.....

thus... seasoned pro, in and working from the word go.

amateur, needs a course first... which in the interests of fairness, the time for which should be removed from their session time....



as much as anything else, the difference between the dilettante and the pro, is the experience as much as , if not more than, any innate talent... , both with specifics, and with general operational concepts... the ability to read a label, and understand what it means, even if it's a bit cryptic and relies on 3 other function labels elsewhere on the desk... to be understood , and comprehend both what it does, and how to use it, even if they've never actually used that particular desk before...

when it gets "fun" is when people have had bespoke additional functions added to a desk, and not labelled them at all....

(0vu has some fun raindirk stories about that idea... )

---

Thanks for the definition of seasoned . The point I was trying to make is anyone approaching a new piece of kit - be it console, interface, computer system - will have a learning curve. Obviously, it will be steeper for some than others.

ken

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

Quote idris y draig:

---

I know one guy who uses small PMC's as doorstops

---

Regarding SoS giving bad reviews in the past - there's a couple of real slatings I recall from memory which I've managed to find on the site:

Alesis QS6.2 & QS8.2

Quote:

---

If Alesis had done this, the QS6.2 could have been given a meaningful boost. Despite its shortcomings, it might still have made a very useful tool, offering substantial and practical user-sampling facilities at this price point. As it is, this synth offers the Golden Chalice of Sampledom on the one hand, only to have it dashed away by the Spectre of Obsolescence.
...
The latest revisions to the QS series resemble the QS6.1 & 8.1, but with 24-bit A-D converters and some cosmetic changes. However, sample importing, potentially the most attractive feature of the QSs, has been compromised by the continued use of old PCMCIA technology and lack of computer connectivity, and the general spec of the instrument is lacklustre by today's standards given its price.

---

CME VX8

Quote:

---

the VX should be one of the best master keyboard controllers out there. However, not even the 'luxury' of moving faders can put a positive spin on some of the careless design issues that currently compromise the VX's usefulness and ultimately let it down.
...
On automated mixing consoles, the great benefit of moving faders is that you can interact with them. In other words, when the console is in 'update' mode you can interrupt a fader's motion, pushing it to new positions, and those changes are memorised for future passes. Therein lies a problem with the VX — the manual issues dire warnings of damage to the keyboard (and even the risk of fire or electric shock!) if you interfere with a fader's movement in this way.

---

Steinberg Nuendo 4

Quote:

---

I have to say that I really don’t understand what Steinberg hope to achieve by introducing the NEK. While the motive is presumably to further distinguish Nuendo’s post-production abilities from Cubase’s music creation heritage, it seems a bit clumsy to do this now by removing features that have been part of Nuendo for over four years. I think that Nuendo is sufficiently well-known at this point that a post-production professional is not going to overlook the program just because it also comes with score and drum editing features.
It’s somewhat perverse that, even though Nuendo is more expensive than Cubase, you still need to spend more money to get the functionality included with the less expensive application. Arguably this has always been Steinberg’s problem in separating Cubase and Nuendo — the company sees both products as flagship products for different markets, even though they’re the same application at heart.

---

--------------------
http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote Daniel Davis:

---

Back to Young Guru - I know there's room for every kind of music in SOS but what exactly is the point in telling us in detail about eq etc used on samples? We have no idea what the samples sound like.

---

A little unfair. You could say the same of any source in any related articles. There are infinite ways to record 'live' sources. It's really no different.

If you were curious, the knowledge of the process used would give you a fairly good idea from listening to the finished track.

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

Quote Daniel Davis:

---

...what exactly is the point in telling us in detail about eq etc used on samples? We have no idea what the samples sound like.

---

Perhaps... but you probably do know what some of the sources he describes sounds like (TB808s for example), and he does generally mention what he was trying to achieve with the EQ settings he chose (more air, more body, more snap etc).

So perhaps people reading the article might learn to associate snare drum 'snap' with a frequency region around 2.4kHz as he suggests, and could then try tuning their own EQ to similar frequecies when trying to achieve a similar character or quality. It's a starting point that many inexperienced readers will probably find helpful...

Personally, I'm not a fan of mixing by numbers and I always teach people to use their ears to find the frequency regions they like or don't like in a signal, but each to their own.

I'm just amused at the way the EQ centre frequencies have been quoted to the exact Hertz value the plug-in is showing!

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Bossman:

---

how could you put Behringer next to SSL, or even in the same studio...

---

I once had my Tascam 244 Portastudio (Cassette 4 track multitrack for those too young to know) plugged into a big SSL (4000 series I think, but not certain).
Best bit was when 1 of the tracks was cracking up a bit- a dirty pot on the SSL

--------------------
Cubase, guitars.

SoS is brilliant at managing expectations when it comes to what gear is good for what purpose.

The secrets articles are great. They actually give real world advice about what goes on in the making of the best quality productions.

Anyone in the current under the illusion that you need an SSL to make music of any sort should probably get an SoS sub.

I wouldn't swap this feature for anything. Where else can you see screen caps from the project windows of hit songs? Keep up the brilliant work.

Quote Max!:

---

Quote Pete Kaine:

---

Quote dmills:

---

(One site I encountered had a button on the desk that would turn on the kettle in the staff room for example).

---

Do want.

---

you need to remember to include functionality that pages the secretary or runner to actually go and do stuff with the kettle once it's boiled... and indeed, calculate the time lag so that they get to the kettle just as it finishes boiling...

---

Is that what they call "round-trip latency"..? (Alternatively known as the TTT response - "Time To Tea"...)