I know this has been asked a million times but what is stopping companies like Roland re-issuing simple analogue synths like the SH-101?
I mean surely this can be done cost effectively right?
Cheap thru-hole design and some IC's, plastic case etc etc
This is not exactly cutting edge stuff
I'm not sure what IC's are no longer made by Roland but surely they can make them again because I honestly think the market is there.

I mean look at the Moog Voyager Old Skool, CV/Gate and no MIDI on a new synth in 2009 although the Moog is a more boutique high end synth.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this..I know it wont ever happen but should make for an interesting read never the less

I expect it would be too expensive to do these days.
A lot of the old transistors that synths like the 101 used have not been made for 20 odd years (I found this out when building my 303 clone). So you'd have to start producing those again for a start.
Then theres manufacturing.. Back then, im sure it was more labour intensive. Today factories are far more automated, and are likely not very well equipped to deal with older style components anymore. So you'd need more 'human' labour, and quite a bit of retooling to produce such a synth.
Through hole maybe simple.. But surface mount technology works out so much cheaper when a single chip can do the job of many thousands of transistors. Plus it can be fitted in seconds by one machine, rather than multiple human hands.

Hence why the few fully analogue synths you can still buy today tend to be pretty expensive. And the cheaper analogues tend to be riddled with various compromises in order to get the cost down.

Just my 2 osc's worth!

Paul

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Paul

Like it or not, stuff like the SH201 *is* Roland's attempts to do what you're suggesting - it's just that nobody seems to 'get it'.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Wow, in our Email conversations I am so influential you start threads over them :]

Me and martin (vinyl junkie) were just saying how roland are so out of touch these days. The last thing I feel they ever did of any worth was the JP8000/8080.

After that they have done little but (scuse me) bastadize the great Roland brands that were legendary such as the SH and the Juno's. I bet the Jupiters have a few sleepless nights as there probs next.

Back on track for the thread, If Moog can do it as Martin rightfully states Roland are missing out. Even limited runs of 303s and 101s would clean up.

I remember Rolands lack of listening to what customers actually wanted caused such a stir in the mid 90s Roland themselves allowed competitors such as Novation and Quasimidi to be born. Then after seeing how popular the Bassstation was (and others) quickly got their act together and made the JP some years later.

Lets not forget also, it was musicians abusing the great 303/101 etc that made them any use. They were actually a total flop on release. Roland never made any money out of these classics! All the money generated has been from the second hand market.
Granted the Juno's and Jupiters were very successful but half of rolands success is down to a form of dance music that didnt really come to age until more of these synths had been discontinued. You'd think they would want some cash and actually re make these beauties. I mean the 303/101/808/909/106/60 have all been at the top of most dance musicians kit list for decades, its a license to print money for Roalnd!

I doubt Roland will ever be in touch with there customers except fro the odd fluke here and there.

All of this is blasphemous for me to admit as I love the classic Roalnd gear but really, Since the JP they have produced bot all worth mentioning and that was 10 years ago! Before the JP they had produced nowt for around 5 years or more. Thinking D50 and JD800?? So in 15 years or more they have done very little IMO.

Just my two pennith

Totally agree. Similar with classic samplers...

Why can't the likes of Akai and Emu reproduce their MPC60s/SP1200s? They could make them smaller and more portable, with more memory and features, but keeping the classic crunchy sounds everyone loves. I'm sure they'd sell - I know I'd buy them!

Quote Stoney:

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Totally agree. Similar with classic samplers...

Why can't the likes of Akai and Emu reproduce their MPC60s/SP1200s? They could make them smaller and more portable, with more memory and features, but keeping the classic crunchy sounds everyone loves. I'm sure they'd sell - I know I'd buy them!

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As far as I know EMU only stopped production of the SP-1200 cos they ran out of the analogue SSM filter chips.
It had a long production run and remained un-changed pretty much from 87 to 1998!
Want a cheap MPC-60 buy a S-950 lol

Suerly an S950 cannot match the other dimensions you keep telling me about, such as how simple they are too use

Quote kolakube:

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Me and martin (vinyl junkie) were just saying how roland are so out of touch these days. The last thing I feel they ever did of any worth was the JP8000/8080.

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V-Synth??????????????????

(oh, and good to have you back, by the way ;-)

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http://soundcloud.com/schmuckfenster

Quote kolakube:

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Suerly an S950 cannot match the other dimensions you keep telling me about, such as how simple they are too use

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Sound wise I meant.
But don't forget the MPC-60 is only easy by 1980's standards if you compare it to newer MPC's like the 2k and even 3k
Mind you I think the 950 is easy...
The S950 is mainly all used for sampling drums by most people and the metallic time stretch...if you have a big record collection and have a good ear GET ONE
but as much as I love the MPC's EMU always did take a bit of a poo on Akai...I mean the MPC-60 Mickey didn't even have a filter...even the S-950 had a non resonant low-pass

If you want to listen to the sound of the MPC-60 DJ Shadow "endtroducing" the whole album was done on a MPC-60, ADAT and a SL-1200mk2
That's as far as that machine will ever go

Quote flo:

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Quote kolakube:

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Me and martin (vinyl junkie) were just saying how roland are so out of touch these days. The last thing I feel they ever did of any worth was the JP8000/8080.

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V-Synth??????????????????

(oh, and good to have you back, by the way ;-)

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I did mention that one to him in a email lol And the new V-Synth is pretty cool

....which is precisely what Dave Smith thought - how come he's struggling then ?

Despite what you think - there is a market of "desire" for them - but i doubt very much whether there is a market of cash at all.

Quote narcoman:

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....which is precisely what Dave Smith thought - how come he's struggling then ?

Despite what you think - there is a market of "desire" for them - but i doubt very much whether there is a market of cash at all.

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Because the new DSI's suck lol Actually that's a bit harsh but I didn't like the Mo'Pho I mean a Waldorf Pulse sounds better (Ok are we comparing apples to oranges? but the envelopes I didn't like and I found the sound rather bland)
Also the user interface sucks, why own hardware if you have to use software to edit it...makes no scene to me
VST's sound damn good as they are and better than the MoPho' I mean Arturia do a MINI MOOG that sounds damn close to a Mini...what would I rather have?? hmm

I dunno, there has been great demand for the classic roland gear now for decades, literally. These things arent a trend. I think people would snap them up. Also they could make 1000 at a time and see how it goes. Or at least let some other company have a go under license.

I would pay top dollar for mint brand new boxed and guaranteed classic roland gear.

Dave smith has never had the pull in my world as that of Roland but thats just from my corner of the world.

Quote kolakube:

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Dave smith has never had the pull in my world as that of Roland but thats just from my corner of the world.

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Kinda same here but I'm thankful he invented MIDI lol
Also I love the sound of the Prophet 5 and Prophet 2000 sampler, also the prophet copys like the Nord Leads and AN1X's of the world..
But more desirable than a Prophet was always ARP to me, god they sound amazing..ARP, Moog, Roland, Waldorf now we are talking..

I must say the prophet 5 was a favorite of mine. But it isnt as appealing to this day as the old roland classics.

Quote kolakube:

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I would pay top dollar for mint brand new boxed and guaranteed classic roland gear.

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And it would be top dollar. As I mentioned in my earlier post, many many components have not been made for at least 20 years.
To justify remanufacturing the key components alone would take a very serious investment on Rolands part. So 1000 synths even at a grand a piece wouldn't even nearly cover the costs involved.
They would have to know in advance that they could sell thousands and thousands of them.
Why would anyone pay so much for something so simple, when for a fraction of the cost a decent bit of software will run circles around it?
Roland compromise with their 'similar' offerings, with the analogue controls, but digital innards. It's cost effective to produce, and Joe Blogs will be plenty happy with it. The hard core 303/101/whatever fanatics might not be so keen. But those people simply are not numerous enough for Roland to justify remaking the things in their original form.

By & large Roland would appear to be happier providing studio's with their meat & two veg type products. IE, gear with a fairly broad appeal that they know they can sell by the container load. Niche products don't really seem to be their thing. At least not these days..

Paul

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Paul

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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As far as I know EMU only stopped production of the SP-1200 cos they ran out of the analogue SSM filter chips.
It had a long production run and remained un-changed pretty much from 87 to 1998!
Want a cheap MPC-60 buy a S-950 lol

---

Not only Martin. You have to look at the history of Emu and where they went after those amazing products (I have an SP1200 btw ). They went into the computer market and interfaces just to survive. Frankly, I'm surprised they are still around. The 12, 1200, and Emax are all 12-Bit! Its appropriate to talk about this in the vintage gear forum because its VINTAGE GEAR! But around the end of the production of the SP1200 (c. 1998), the market was flooded with cheaper, alternative samplers that could be computer controlled. Mainly by the likes of Akai and their 16-Bit Neu MPC models (not the Linn 3K). Users wanted more fidelity without considering the distinct sounds or workflows of the legacy gear and when that convenience spread to DAWs and computer programming, people were quick to sell off their vintage "obsolete" (har!) gear and buy a top of the range computer to make music... and burn CDs... and create sleeves in Illustrator etc. or what have you.

SSM's are still available. The only reason SPs sell for so much was the limited run. That's a pretty good legacy and even if they were to re-release them (a la Moog Voyager / Lil Phatty), it wouldn't be comparable to the originals.

Now. I am about to incur the wrath of Zukan when I say:

I hope Roger finally finishes the Linn Drum II so we can all put these tanks to rest!

Yours.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

You are so lucky owning a SP1200, I would love one!
I think every one is waiting for the Linn Drum II but I wonder if it will ever be released and because people expect so much/different things of it what if it doesn't live up to what every one expects it to be.
If I was Roger I would of kept quiet about it then there is no real pressure to meet dead lines which are always broken cos they are never met as goal posts change.
Never the less I'm eagerly awaiting it..if it will ever happen and wish him the best of luck with it!
All the MPC die hards who own 3k's and 60's are already saving for it probs lol

Quote kolakube:

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I must say the prophet 5 was a favorite of mine. But it isnt as appealing to this day as the old roland classics.

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I've NEVER heard anyone put any bit of Roland gear above some of Mr Smiths classics

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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VST's sound damn good as they are and better than the MoPho' I mean Arturia do a MINI MOOG that sounds damn close to a Mini...what would I rather have?? hmm

---

Love DSI stuff. Got a couple of Moog modern pieces here - Love em. Love the DSI stuff (got Mopho, got Prophet 8 - also got an older Prophet 5 ... getting Poly Evolver)...

Quite like the plugins - but ALL of them sound thin ..... still very usable but suffer from EXACTLY the same issues that plugin EQs do against real ones. Totally useable - but harder to get the good stuff out. Mind you - the Monomachine is a fab digital synth - so it's not s/w I dont like !!

LOVE the Mopho - like a mad hybrid between a pocket watch and a Prophet. Pair it up with a Sherman - ooooooch!!

Got 60's, 106s, Jupiters and JP8000. For me - they're all good but not super.... I guess I'm not a Roland guy !!!

Hi Narcoman, some good points.

However if your not a Roland guy im going to guess your not a creator of dance music? Id honestly say anyone in HipHop (not me) House (all styles) Trance (all styles) Hardcore, Techno, Drum and Bass and on, would always make room for another SH-101.

If it were not for these few cheap and simple analogue machines almost all of the dance music genre would not be the same today. The 303 single handedly created Acid, the JP8000 (OK not an analogue) single handedly created Dutch Trance with its supersaw alone.

Dont get my wrong, if you offered me your prophets 5 and 08 Id snap your hand off as these are two synths that get much kudos from myself, especially the 5. But they were never immediately popular with dance musicians.

I know your saying the pricers if Roland were to re release would be huge, well Id settle for replicas that were virtual analogue (given no option of analogues) if they sold for a few hundred quid each. As long as Roland didnt bastardize them. I just want the same thing, IE a replica perhaps with an optional MIDI interface.

Enjoying this debate/thread

Quote narcoman:

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Got a couple of Moog modern pieces here - Love em. Love the DSI stuff (got Mopho, got Prophet 8 - also got an older Prophet 5 ... getting Poly Evolver)...

Got 60's, 106s, Jupiters and JP8000. For me - they're all good but not super.... I guess I'm not a Roland guy !!!

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Dave ... yes you Dave .... I am the voice in your head .... relax .... stay calm .... pick up the cricket bat ...... get in the car ..... go to Narcoman's place .... close your eyes and let me take over ...... we can have lots of lovely kit ..... hmmmm - Prophets! ...... hmmmm Jupiters ...... you want this really don't you .... we can be happy ....... synth heaven ...... we may need to wipe down some spilled fluids .... don't concentrate too hard on the redness .... did I mention Poly Evolver .... happy place ..... thinking happy thoughts ....

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote Stoney:

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Totally agree. Similar with classic samplers...

Why can't the likes of Akai and Emu reproduce their MPC60s/SP1200s? They could make them smaller and more portable, with more memory and features, but keeping the classic crunchy sounds everyone loves. I'm sure they'd sell - I know I'd buy them!

---

Th "classic crunchy sounds" are a product of old crunchy circuitry. Duplicating that either means modelling which won't please purists, or duplicating the original in which case you won't get the benefits of size reduction etc.

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RockinRollin' VampireMan

I could never get really excited about the Prophet 5 either, but I do absolutely love my Pro-One. There was something about the P5 that just left me cold - I honestly don't know why.

Same goes for the venerable CS80 to be honest, but that may be down to the 'never going to be able play a Wakeman line on this' heavy weighted keys.

But the first time I played a Jupiter I just knew I had to have one. I never got the the JP8 I craved, but the MKS-80s are a good compromise. The JP-8000/8080 are vastly undervalued in the current market - I'd grab another in an instant. No, not real analogue, but once you're playing with one you forget that in an instant.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I totally agree re the JP Elf.

I bought one new in 1998 (I think) and it cost me around a grand and a half. Back then it was superb. Had to sell it unfortunatlty a year after I got it.

Got another one last week second hand in great condition. Comparing it to the Juno 106 I had 6 months ago Id honestly say it sounds just as fat and wooley when it needs too. I honestly think the JP is 'the' best VA synth ever made even to this day. You can keep your virus. Also I had an Alesis Andromeda and again loved my trusty JP 8080 (at the time) more.

One of the most underrated synths of all time is the JP-80X0 imho

Quote kolakube:

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Id settle for replicas that were virtual analogue (given no option of analogues) if they sold for a few hundred quid each.

---

In many respects, Roland have been beaten at their own game by other companies.. I don't think there have been many (any?) 101 clones. But there has certainly been several 303 type clones. Some are very good, and fit in with what you described. Except they don't have the Roland badge on them.
One of the better digital clones is the Miami Acidlab Bassline 2 (www.acidlab.de ). Its pretty authentic right down to the sequencer and would set you back around £450. My (analogue) x0xb0x is a component accurate 303 clone and cost me about £400. But I had to build that myself (Its bloody great though! )
Theres a few other 303 clone type products too (I have 2 or 3 more!) But as you can see, Roland have largely given up trying to compete with the very monster they themselves created. Because smaller companies have already muscled in on the action to provide their own solutions. However, they are all produced in limited numbers. Except for the software clones of course.

Paul

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Paul

I am most interested in the xoxbox. You can get them ready made for around £350 on Ebay every now and then.

Why oh why doesnt someone make a xoxbox style 808??? or 909?? or 101 etc etc and on.

I used to own a Novation Drum Station. To all intents and purposes, a great 808 and 909 in a 1u rack. Also had DIN Sync IIRC. No sequencer though but you can pick them up for peanuts now.

That Miami Bassline sounds very authentic as does their 808 box.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote ken long:

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I used to own a Novation Drum Station. To all intents and purposes, a great 808 and 909 in a 1u rack. Also had DIN Sync IIRC. No sequencer though but you can pick them up for peanuts now.

That Miami Bassline sounds very authentic as does their 808 box.

ken

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I used to have a Drum Station too, the 909 was pretty good but didn't think much of the 808 kit on there...always thought the Jomox boxes sounded fater but the Drum Station is still a great unit I think

Quote kolakube:

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I am most interested in the xoxbox. You can get them ready made for around £350 on Ebay every now and then.

Why oh why doesnt someone make a xoxbox style 808??? or 909?? or 101 etc etc and on.

---

x0xb0x's are brilliant. Probably the best 303 clone of the lot. Plus they have midi, cv, usb, as well as din sync. They are also a bit easier/faster to program than the real deal. So in many respects, the x0xb0x is better! There is a multitude of well documented modifications you can do to them also.
However, they do need to be built with care if you want it to be 100% authentic sounding. eBay ones will be a bit of a gamble in that department.

As for a modern 808.. Did you have a look at the acidlab site I linked to? www.acidlab.de They make one.
Failing that, all the Jomox drum machines are essentially a slightly modernised take on the 808/909 theme. They are certainly worth checking out

Im not aware of any hardware 101 clones though.

Paul

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Paul

I dunno, without the sequencer its nothing more than a pile of samples to me. Drumstation could have been so much more.

hey, that miami looks superb!!!

Is the Miami Acidlab Bassline 2 ready assembled or do you have to make it like the xoxbox?

How is one different from the other otherwise.

Quote kolakube:

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I dunno, without the sequencer its nothing more than a pile of samples to me. Drumstation could have been so much more.

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No! It was analogue! So no samples! (Except of course for the infamous 909 hats and cymbals).



ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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always thought the Jomox boxes sounded fater but the Drum Station is still a great unit I think

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Yes, was that the X-Base or something? Can't remember - never tried 'em.

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I'm All Ears.

I see.

The acidlab site is one of these ones that looks super trendy but has little function. Cant find a shot of the back of these units to see if there midi or CV.

Im very interested in the Miami and the Bassline 2 but I cant find out much about them. Unless im missing something.

I hope these are not kits. I need ready assembled.

Quote kolakube:

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Is the Miami Acidlab Bassline 2 ready assembled or do you have to make it like the xoxbox?

How is one different from the other otherwise.

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Thats ready built You can do a google search for audio/video demo's. Its not half bad at all from what I have heard.
And how is it different from what? A x0xb0x? Well they may look vaguely similar, and sound pretty similar. But the Acidlab Bassline 2 is actually digital inside (Their drum machines are analogue though).

Quote ken long:

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Yes, was that the X-Base or something? Can't remember - never tried 'em.

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Jomox's first product (I think) was the Xbase 09 drum machine. I have one and it's pretty good But they made a few drum boxes since then that are well worth checking out too.

Paul

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Paul

P. 18 and 19 in the manual goes into sync detail (for the 808 box). It says Deutsch but you can read it in English. I'll save you the trouble though - they do have MIDI implementation as well as Sync and CV.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

hurray!!! thanks guys

Hey im honestly interested in buying these when I get some cash together.

Does the baseline sound much different to the xoxbox or have you only hear the xoxbox

Was thinking on another note saying no one had ever done a 101 replica, would the original keyboard novation basstation count using one osc?

Paul im just looking at the bassline 2. If I had the knowledge how to build myself id go for the xoxbox. I like the way the Bassline 2 comes ready made but is it any good being digital.
Mind I swear by my digital JP-8000 for analogue type sounds. If done right digital can be convincing but it can also be kaka.

800 Euro's for a 808 clone ha no thanks, you could get a real 808 for around that or used to be...they always seem to sell cheaper than 909's
Have you had a look at the MFB 522, it's analogue and sorta like a 808 but cheaper.
Also the Novation Drum Station isn't analogue but analogue modeling with PCM samples for the rides and hats.
Kola mate I need to get you to a doctor cos your chronic obsession with the 303 is getting worse lol
Rebirth does the job with me and it's free now, my mate has a 303 he got in the 90's for 100 quid if I ever need the real thing...for me I couldn't spend all that money for such a limited machine that software can copy so well..I love it don't get me wrong but on how many tracks will I use one?? If I wasn't strapped for cash i'd buy one

Here you go mate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjyXQI-fCAs

He's also got a SH-101 and a Alpha Juno after he heard my Alpha

What sadens me the most is the lack of good/inspirational products coming from these manufacturers now...

Look at Yamaha...I love them, I really do!
I mean they gave us such things as the DX-7 bringing FM to a wider audiance, gave us the brilliant analogue CS synths...they developed a really good sounding physical modeling engine that does a fantastic job at sounding like a analogue synth..the list is endless, they pored money into useless products that no one got (FS-1R?)
But where are they now?! Making boring workstations with the same lame technology of the 90's...look at the Tenorion! it's awful..you would think something with such a innovative interface would have a synth engine to match ops no it's basically general midi XG2 what ever.
Yamaha rock, they have so many gems that go for little money just cos they are not "trendy"

Roland..ahh they are the same now with exceptions to the SH-201 and V-Synth, but I don't think the 201 is all that.
I on the other hand think the SH-32 is all that, it's named wrong though...here is what it should of been called.."I'm not a Juno/SH,Jupiter 32" and it would of been a success cos it sounds great! lol

Why can't yamaha execute the FS-1R again but with a better interface? That's an amazing synth!

All bad? Nope look at Waldorf with the Blofeld, amazing technology and sound at a great price!
It's not trying to be anything it's not and it sure makes you know it...I wish the manufacturers like Roland and Yamaha would get off their back sides and come up with something fresher..

Is there still room for a good ol' clone..ahh heall yea you kiddin me lol
Bring back the SH-2 but with a different model number and re-design it for the 21st century but make sure it's got "that sound"

I honestly think the V-Synth will become a future roland classic much like the JD-800 did

TB 303 clone/emulator somehow has to be analog, no? Did not know that the acidlab2 was digital. Always had a bit an eye on it (the first is analog, buth has a less user-friendly sequencer).

I would recommend a XoX they came down in prices quite a bit. Cool sequencer. If you find one with modifications gives it more potential. AND you can use it as a midi-CV gate for your SH101 oder any other non-midi synth.

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http://soundcloud.com/schmuckfenster

Edited by flo (11/12/09 09:38 PM)

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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I honestly think the V-Synth will become a future roland classic much like the JD-800 did

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I was looking for the vocal designer card for the early Vsynth keyboard. Seems to be available 'used only'. They pay prices like USD 500+ for it that is just nuts!!!

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http://soundcloud.com/schmuckfenster

Martin all analogue gear was cheaper in the 90's. Doesn't mean im not going to buy anything now dafty. I have an old mag where one is in the classifieds for £35!!

Rebirth doesnt do it for me nor does any other software mate. Im not bothered re the analogue / digital debate its more I like a dedicated hardware one knob for each function. There are VST synths that are far superior to my JP-8000 these days yet I can write far better tunes with the hardware interface of my dedicated hardware synth?

I havent seen a very good condition 808 for £800. If you can find one id love that. Id defiantly rather have the real thing. The mdf 808 thingy look cheap to me. The Miami looks like the only real alternative to the real deal. Im defiantly interested. Hopefully they will make a 909.

i have to be honest. i dont know why people are getting so "analogue" upped. my fantom G6 can sound 95 percent the same as any old analogue synth and then a hell of allot more due to the massive amount of extra sound complexity available. and before you ask i have either owned or used all the old analogue beasts. the general public couldn't tell the difference to save their lives. a total waste of time and a total red herring.

Edited by ROLANDF100 (11/12/09 10:48 PM)

Quote kolakube:

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Paul im just looking at the bassline 2. If I had the knowledge how to build myself id go for the xoxbox. I like the way the Bassline 2 comes ready made but is it any good being digital.
Mind I swear by my digital JP-8000 for analogue type sounds. If done right digital can be convincing but it can also be kaka.

---

Check this out.. Its a pretty decent comparison site. Although I believe the Acidlab Bassline synth on there is an earlier model (No sequencer?)
www.acidvoice.com
You'll find quite a few vids of it on Youtube etc too.
I've not tried one of the Acidlab synths, but from the demo's i've heard, it is very good. Perhaps a little sharper/edgier sounding than a 303 or x0xb0x is all. But still plenty good.

While im here.. There is a handful of people that will sell you a ready made x0xb0x. Including one in the UK: www.thebeast.co.uk (In fact I believe this chap posts on here occasionally)
There is some other builders too, but you'll have to rummage about on the x0xb0x forums to find them: http://forums.adafruit.com/viewforum.php?f=35

Cheers, Paul

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Paul

Quote ROLANDF100:

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i have to be honest. i dont know why people are getting so "analogue" upped. my fantom G6 can sound 95 percent the same as any old analogue synth and then a hell of allot more due to the massive amount of extra sound complexity available. and before you ask i have either owned or used all the old analogue beasts. the general public couldn't tell the difference to save their lives. a total waste of time and a total red herring.

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Welcome to the vintage forum!


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http://soundcloud.com/schmuckfenster

Quote ROLANDF100:

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i have to be honest. i dont know why people are getting so "analogue" upped. my fantom G6 can sound 95 percent the same as any old analogue synth and then a hell of allot more due to the massive amount of extra sound complexity available. and before you ask i have either owned or used all the old analogue beasts. the general public couldn't tell the difference to save their lives. a total waste of time and a total red herring.

---

But we would.

I am assuming your G6 has variable rated op-amps, osc drift, tuning drifts, circuits that due 'their own thang' once warm or cold, harmonic distortion and of course self osc filters and.......?

The G6 has a better mod matrix for sure but cannot be compared to true analogue as most of today's workstation romplers can't, along with VA, virtual subtrators and so on.

We are vintage tarts and proud of it.

Oh, btw, welcome to our forums.



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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote ROLANDF100:

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i have to be honest. i dont know why people are getting so "analogue" upped. my fantom G6 can sound 95 percent the same as any old analogue synth and then a hell of allot more due to the massive amount of extra sound complexity available. and before you ask i have either owned or used all the old analogue beasts. the general public couldn't tell the difference to save their lives. a total waste of time and a total red herring.

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Maybe for the general public it the same, but with your logic, why use hardware at all, just get a computer and some VSTis.

There is not one virtual analog emulator today that truly captures the sound of a good old analog synth, once recorded it may sound very similar, but when using the synth it feels and responds differently, somehow more alive. Too bad that the Prophet08/Mopho/Tetra did not manage to capture this well enough.

Stating that, the prices people are paying for a TB303 (that can only make one sound) or the Minimoog is somewhat crazy though. Even paying 4-5000 pounds for a Jupiter8 borders on insanity. They are not that good, as a complement to other tools, yes, but they are not really the centre piece of a modern studio. Although, stating that, when I find a MKS80 for a good price I am ready to buy it.

Why 8 and 12 bit samplers with analog filters haven't increased more in price is a mystery though, Emax, DSS1 and Prophet 2000 can still be found for cheap prices. Another area where software has not yet made good alternatives.

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TritonExtrMOSS/EX800, NordRack2, ATC1, D550/XV5080/MKS70/MKS7/MKS50/MKS80/S550/JP8080/Ju60/JD990, Blofeld, Mopho, TG77/An1X, ESQM, Emax, Esynth, AkaiS5k/MPC1k, Indigo2, Rogue, Machinedrum, ProOne

yee my g6 can sound like one vso is 5 percent different at 2.15 every afternoon at an ambient temperature of 21.5. i just use a different mains cable wear a hockey mask and recite poetry to it. would i like something like a jp8? sure i would. i used to have one so its a bit of nostalgia and its very pretty to look at. but after a dozen or so pads and filter sweeps it would be under the bed with me hoping it will be a cash cow in 5 years time when somebody else will pay big money for its imaginary mystical powers.

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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look at the Tenorion! it's awful..you would think something with such a innovative interface would have a synth engine to match ops no it's basically general midi XG2 what ever.

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I like the Tenori-on.. Yes, the bundled sounds are a bit weak. But then it was conceived by a Japanese artist. So yes, it does have a Japanese plinky plonk techno vibe at times. Also, the Tenori-on has 6 different writing modes, and the sounds have to work with as many of them as possible. Hence why many of them sound the way they do. Plus you can load in your own samples, and it has midi out, so you can drive your external synths with it.
I also like that it is entirely self contained.. Has its own little speakers, and can take batteries. So you can use the thing anywhere! It makes a refreshing change being able to fiddle about with something that doesn't have to be tethered to a computer, and/or mixer 24/7. Plus the thing is an absolute trip to watch! Its cool that Yamaha were brave enough to make the thing in the first place. Roland would never have done it..
Still, it certainly has it's limitations, and it's silly expensive. But cool none the less. There isn't anything else quite like it Having said that, it is essentially a much glorified step sequencer. A little like the old analogue step sequencers.

Paul

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Paul

I also have a couple of Novation Drumstations. I've had several real 808s and 909s and I'd take the convenience of the Drumstation every time - the sound is close enough to my ears. It has a painfully low volume audio output though - it's only real vice.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Here's a out there view. How about worrying about composition and writing good music rather than ohh i've really got to get that sp1200 drum sound. sod it use something else, route it through some weird box, eq it. use your hands, eyes feet, nose & spacial awareness rather than blame the lack of or desire for some obsolete piece of kit.
granted im lucky and own a few vintage pieces and yeah they do have that 'sound' but no one whose ever paid me for music has ever ever commented on the fact that i used this or that. in fact my last very well paid job i recorded on a dictaphone. (god bless you ad music).
i find it hysterical that so many people assume the gear is the answer.
feel free to slate me etc, i just think the proliferation of virtual this vs the real thing and what not means a lot of people probably have great sounding tracks that go no where, do nothing and will never be heard.
no i sit back and await the tirade of abuse.

xx

This is the Vintage Gear forum - and that's what we discuss here. What you say is perfectly valid, but you have vintage gear yourself, so you know why it has an attraction for those in the know.

You're assuming that none of those here make music that is heard - not true in my case, at least.

There's nothing wrong with a little vintage gear self-indulgence. C'mon and tell us what gems you're harbouring - you're amongst friends here!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote ROLANDF100:

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yee my g6 can sound like one vso is 5 percent different at 2.15 every afternoon at an ambient temperature of 21.5. i just use a different mains cable wear a hockey mask and recite poetry to it. would i like something like a jp8? sure i would. i used to have one so its a bit of nostalgia and its very pretty to look at. but after a dozen or so pads and filter sweeps it would be under the bed with me hoping it will be a cash cow in 5 years time when somebody else will pay big money for its imaginary mystical powers.

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Did you tap into the midi-clorians or did you stray on to the dark side?

You see, all these things matter when you are a vintage gear hed.



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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Well, I didn't want my first post in six years to be in anyway confrontational but...

Quote Paul:

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Why would anyone pay so much for something so simple, when for a fraction of the cost a decent bit of software will run circles around it?

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...why do you think there's this massive underswell return to all things analogue if it wasn't for the gut feeling that digitized sound just doesn't cut it if one is composing for the heart and emotions rather than the head and 'convenience'?

Sound aside, might the fact that software always seems to act as a barrier to creativity (crashes, glitches, baffling manuals, obscure ergonomics, bugs etc ad nauseum) have something to do with the 'new wave' return to sanity, er sorry, analogue?

Bottom line: SOUND - which sounds better to your ears? Endless digital munging through a plethora of plugins or minimal-signal-path analogue?

I know what my heart and gut tell me...

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www.recordplayer.com/

...and why does there seem to be a desire to promote one or the other, when a healthy mix of both can be utilised to make the best of each? To do otherwise is to blinker yourself and close your mind to creative possibilities.

And Zukan - I love moose, and that is probably the best pic you've ever posted here (and they always make me smile)! I chuckled a lot! Ta!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote danny_g:

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Well, I didn't want my first post in six years to be in anyway confrontational but...

Quote Paul:

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Why would anyone pay so much for something so simple, when for a fraction of the cost a decent bit of software will run circles around it?

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...why do you think there's this massive underswell return to all things analogue if it wasn't for the gut feeling that digitized sound just doesn't cut it if one is composing for the heart and emotions rather than the head and 'convenience'?

Sound aside, might the fact that software always seems to act as a barrier to creativity (crashes, glitches, baffling manuals, obscure ergonomics, bugs etc ad nauseum) have something to do with the 'new wave' return to sanity, er sorry, analogue?

Bottom line: SOUND - which sounds better to your ears? Endless digital munging through a plethora of plugins or minimal-signal-path analogue?

I know what my heart and gut tell me...

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Because it's all relative. We're not comparing Moog Modulars to Yamaha DX7's anymore. Modern VA synths and some of the better software gets you 99% of the way to the 'analogue' sound, but at a fraction of the cost to both consumer and manufacturer. That keeps the majority of people plenty happy. And the bigger companies like Roland are all about providing for the majority.

If you want to go the extra mile and splash out the readies to get you that extra 1% of your analogue goodness, then go ahead. As I have already shown, there are plenty of smaller companies that will provide what you want.
There's a lot more companies out there than just the ones you see in glossy multipage adverts in SoS. You just have to look for them.

My point is, you are unlikely to get this stuff from the big players like Roland any more. They are interested in profit margins, and selling gear by the container load. Not dinky limited niche products that cost a fortune to develop that they will only ever sell a couple of thousand of at best.

Digital v Analogue. Neither wins, as each has it's pro's and cons. Personally, I like & use both.
As Elf said, there is certainly no reason why we can't have the best of both worlds

Paul

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Paul

Quote The Elf:

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...and why does there seem to be a desire to promote one or the other, when a healthy mix of both can be utilised to make the best of each? To do otherwise is to blinker yourself and close your mind to creative possibilities.

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I fully agree with you.

Hardware, software, analog and digital living together like one large happy familly




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TritonExtrMOSS/EX800, NordRack2, ATC1, D550/XV5080/MKS70/MKS7/MKS50/MKS80/S550/JP8080/Ju60/JD990, Blofeld, Mopho, TG77/An1X, ESQM, Emax, Esynth, AkaiS5k/MPC1k, Indigo2, Rogue, Machinedrum, ProOne

well you lot believe midi chlorians reside in all analogue stuff and robert moog is the chosen one who will soon banish all this digital crap from the universe. irll stick with me digital cpus until rob comes round and we have it out with the light sabers

Thanks for your considered response, Paul. Indeed, everything is relative but some things are also absolute (natural soundwaves, universal plasma come to mind) ;-)

Re: the digital vs analogue cost factor - is it such a barrier these days? Okay, I agree completely that chasing the last 1% of auditory nirvana becomes exclusively a rich person's game (see my sig!) yet compare for instance the AN1x's initial retail price to say Dave Smith's prophet 08. Both sound great but which gives you the better buzz, for lack of a more apt expression?

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www.recordplayer.com/

Quote:

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and why does there seem to be a desire to promote one or the other, when a healthy mix of both can be utilised to make the best of each? To do otherwise is to blinker yourself and close your mind to creative possibilities.

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I glady close my mind to using a computer for a sound source :]

Quote kolakube:

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Quote:

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and why does there seem to be a desire to promote one or the other, when a healthy mix of both can be utilised to make the best of each? To do otherwise is to blinker yourself and close your mind to creative possibilities.

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I glady close my mind to using a computer for a sound source :]

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I don't..like everything in live I believe in a balance but at the end of the day I don't care what the next person does if they are making GOOD music but I do like to discuss it lol
I know guys who can make amazing music using just a computer and for it to sound great yet as every one is different that's not always for them bla bla bla but any way Digital or Analogue I personally don't care just as long as it fulfills my needs..I won't buy a JP-8 because it's "analogue" but because it has something that "I" like about it whether it be it's sound, interface or both

Good points mate. I personally dont rate the analogue v digital argument and never have, As much as I do like the fatter analogue sounds there are superb things you can do with digital ones also.

For me, back in my day, back in the early 90's we all bought cheap old analogues because they were full of sliders. At that time all synths were digital and carbon copies of each other and damn right dull.

So it has always been about control for me as opposed sound.

Also, I wholeheartedly admit VST instruments can be everything any digital synth can be and more, but then again its that crap interface of trying to play keyboard with a mouse and keys. I mean, imagine telling a guitarist he can play a virtual guitar and hand him a mouse and see how many fingers he holds up in return.

To me, computers are for communication, synths are for music and never the two shall meet.

In reply to the OP, the answer is profit.

Analogue is not scalable. The R&D is far cheaper, but once you have developed a specific circuit, that's pretty much it. After a certain production volume has been reached, the marginal cost of each unit is much the same, no matter how many you produce.

The R&D for ORIGINAL digital designs is extremely expensive, but once it has been done, that's it. That bit of intellectual property can be put inside all sorts of different products and even combined with other developments to create new product generations. Whether you are buying a digital synth or a digital mixer, what you are really buying is a glorified PC with dedicated ins and out and dedicated controls.

For example, the Korg MS2000 and the Trident continue today after about ten years, to live on under new names and are combined to give you the complete range of every keyboard that they make.

The original R&D was almost cripplingly expensive, but it has proven to be extremely profitable in the long run. If you look at their stuff, every keyboard is a sort of MS2000 or a Triton, or bits from one or both or (Oasys is throw in everything, the Microkorg is a boiled-down version of the MS2000, the Radias is a boiled-up version).

The marginal cost of production of these units is not only very low, but it also falling.

All the other digital synth manufacturers are doing exactly the same. That is why a Roland or Yamaha synth from today sounds precisely like one from ten years ago.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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In reply to the OP, the answer is profit.

Analogue is not scalable. The R&D is far cheaper, but once you have developed a specific circuit, that's pretty much it. After a certain production volume has been reached, the marginal cost of each unit is much the same, no matter how many you produce.

The R&D for ORIGINAL digital designs is extremely expensive, but once it has been done, that's it. That bit of intellectual property can be put inside all sorts of different products and even combined with other developments to create new product generations. Whether you are buying a digital synth or a digital mixer, what you are really buying is a glorified PC with dedicated ins and out and dedicated controls.

For example, the Korg MS2000 and the Trident continue today after about ten years, to live on under new names and are combined to give you the complete range of every keyboard that they make.

The original R&D was almost cripplingly expensive, but it has proven to be extremely profitable in the long run. If you look at their stuff, every keyboard is a sort of MS2000 or a Triton, or bits from one or both or (Oasys is throw in everything, the Microkorg is a boiled-down version of the MS2000, the Radias is a boiled-up version).

The marginal cost of production of these units is not only very low, but it also falling.

All the other digital synth manufacturers are doing exactly the same. That is why a Roland or Yamaha synth from today sounds precisely like one from ten years ago.

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Totally agree with you Red especially the last part.
Although I could add thousands of products to the list one that sticks to my mind right now as I'm using it as I type is the Blofeld..it's basically the SAME as the Micro Q in a blender with a XT and bits of the Q..the OS was pretty much ported from the Micro Q too as some of the features are there from the uQ that have no function on the Blofeld lol

So Red Bladder, you seem to be saying with digital stuff, we are essentially buying the ROM programming? Which I guess is copyrighted and more easily protected from theft than is a physical circuit. I've never thought about it like that before! Like many here, I've often wondered why the big guys don't do real analogue anymore.

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Adam Inglis
A Disco Ate My BABY!