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You can't just say things here and have a laugh, people jump all over you

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If you kick off saying that what they're doing isn't proper music and is only a pastiche of "proper" music, then were you expecting anything different...?

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You think someone sitting in front of a piano roll, waving their arms around and smiling is a pianist?

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Someone sitting in front of a piano roll isn't a pianist. But they have control of the speed of playback, so they can still create dynamics on a single player-piano. And now suppose that they're driving a dozen player-pianos at a time, switching between each of them and rewinding/forwarding at appropriate times so that only chosen phrases of each of the original tunes are played back, but a continuous musical stream continues with a constant rhythm. Sure they're not a pianist, but they're creating music which wouldn't exist without them, and that makes them a musician. The machine isn't the musician, but the person controlling the machine *is*.

If you're not allowed any technological assistance in creating sounds, you're pretty limited. Yes, Bobby McFerrin managed to create an entire album just from vocals and body percussion, and it wasn't at all bad, but I don't think we'd want *every* piece of music to sound like that. So where's your cut-off point in which technologies cause "music" to be created? A piano is a fairly complicated piece of machinery. A church organ is even more complicated. And most electronic keyboards or digital pianos have more complex electronics than old drum machines did.

If your cut-off is that it requires immediate human involvement in the sound creation, where does a vibraslap or a "rain tube" come in? A human sets them going, and they produces noise until whatever internal thing (the spring on the vibraslap, or the beads in the rain tube) have run out of steam. But a human chooses when to kick them off. If those are too mechanical for you, how about a cymbal with a which rings on long after the initial strike?

No, i'm afraid that in the case of the rainstick; the angle at which you hold your stick, and the speed at which you incline it will alter the rate at which the beans rush down the tube.

Quote The Southern Baptist:

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I'd rather listen to this! At least there's some expression going on here and not just the ching of a cash register for the dumbed down masses!

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That imply's that all Electronica is written to make money and the previous comments state that you don't think that the music can have the same emotional involvment with the end user as a piece that played by a live performer.

Emotion is the connection the piece has with the end listener surely? Moby's "Play" album (money made from it aside) had a number of I'd say emotionaly haunting tracks which were pretty much built up inside the box. Of course each persons definition of an emotionally touching track will be compleatly different but to state someone else's opinion isn't valid is a pretty strong statement.

Quote JamesSimpson:

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I remember a time when we were allowed different opinions and so long as we didn't millitantly try to explain ours (or force them on others). Then many people didn't mind you having those opinions.

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Completley agree. The's times where I'll take an opposing viewpoint in a debate, simply to have a debate but I don't mean anything by it when doing so. I just like chatting about things like this as every viewpoints valid. Some of the reactions to T.S.B's comments have been a bit strong I.M.O and he's taken each one very gracefully and it's been quite an interesting thread this even if it has been on a serious tangent.

I so suppose as the old saying goes:

"I don't agree with what you say but i will defend your right to say it"

Back on the off topic I can't stand 99% of dubstep. But the's been a few piece's that have made me go "wow" and the's even been one or two that have had some emotional impact on me. It's a type of music where the majority of it I doubt you could ever perform as live pieces but I don't feel it makes it's any less valid as music.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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...to state someone else's opinion isn't valid is a pretty strong statement.

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You'll never hear me say that.

You still haven't answered the spaceship question, Baptist. I'm interested in your opinion on this one!

Quote The Southern Baptist:

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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...to state someone else's opinion isn't valid is a pretty strong statement.

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You'll never hear me say that.

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Reading back I may have interpreted past posts and phrased that poorly. My apologies sir.


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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote JamesSimpson:

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Quote onesecondglance:

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let the above exchange stand testament to the fact that sarcasm and dry wit do not translate well over the internet.

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Perhaps I'm not funny in real life either though, that would be the rub I suppose.

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our posts crossed over - i was meaning The Southern Baptist and jonnyh's debate.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote JamesSimpson:

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Sometimes i get the feeling on forums that there always has to be a right answer

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Yup, that's quite a disease and common across the net.

Quote johnny h:

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You still haven't answered the spaceship question, Baptist. I'm interested in your opinion on this one!

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I'd like to visit a space ship, i'd like to see a holodeck type device. But i would rather make love to a real woman than one which is programmed to look feel smell and respond like a real woman - because a machine can't feel or give love, and without love we are lost.

Now where did that plot go... Anyone seen it? I could've sworn it was right here a while ago. Perhaps it's over th... Nope. Anyone?

Quote Richard Graham:

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I am interested in hearing how close a machine can be programmed to sound, too... but it will never make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

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It really depends on the artist's ability to use the electronic medium as if it was a real instrument. The music of Tim Clark (Hearts of Space) conveys an amazing amount of emotion, IMO. He uses controllers and FX so efficiently, that it has an effect on me, similar to that of fine acoustic performances.

I find it quite interesting and somewhat telling, that today we generally seem to have less keyboard controllers available than 20 years ago. The old DX 7 had an input for a breath controller, for example. Today, my top-of-the-line Roland keyboard doesn't even have aftertouch. Sad.

We're talking about the musical equivalent of the Turing Test: if in proper blind conditions you can have a dialogue with a computer and not realise it is not a real person, then it is "intelligent".

Programmed, looped etc "music" is interesting on some levels. But it's not intelligent. It has no emotional content.

That's not my opinion as opposed to anyone else's. It's fact. We have not yet invented emotional machines.

To experience music is to experience emotion. The content and depth of such performances will necessarily be lacking.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Programmed, looped etc "music" is interesting on some levels. But it's not intelligent. It has no emotional content.

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Tell that to the room full of sweaty kids at the local club


Seriously though recording and editing music in a sequencer is a form of programming. So when you talk about programming are you talking about the use of a sequencer, or someone coming up with an algorithm that actually writes music from scratch?

If you're just saying loop based or sequenced music has no emotional content I couldn't disagree with you more. Good trance music for example is designed to be extremely emotional, it does this through hypnotic repitition and subtle variation. It's precisely these elements that make it emotional by taking you on a journey. If you're not into it and the only emotion you feel is distaste, that's fine, but that's not how many of us feel (even if there is a lot of formula based me-too rubbish out there). It's about how the music affects us as listeners, not how it was produced.

Of course if you're talking about machine generated algorithmic music then ok, I agree as it stands today. However music is very closely related to maths, so it's only a matter of time IMO.

Quote Steve Hill:

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We're talking about the musical equivalent of the Turing Test: if in proper blind conditions you can have a dialogue with a computer and not realise it is not a real person, then it is "intelligent".

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I used to employ this argument until my Gran fell out with an answerphone

The sound of a train can be hypnotic, which can induce certain emotions in it's passengers, but that doesn't necessarily infer that trains can compose emotive tracks (no pun intended). Particular sounds can generate emotions (crying babies, car alarms etc.) but that doesn't qualify them as being musical. I suspect the real emotion in music is experienced by the player, and sometimes this is conveyed to the listener. Personally I find heavy metal music immensely tiresome to listen to, yet extemely liberating to play, so the same song evokes different emotions depending upon which side of the amp I'm on.

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Not that it matters, but personally i enjoy quite a bit of sequenced music and i've done some myself here and there.

To be, music is any form of sound that creates an emotional or intellectual resonance with me (for want of a better way of putting it) - I don't care how it was arrived at, whether it is 'fake' or 'real', if it makes that connection then to me it is real.

I have found many 'real' bands leave me cold and many 'electronic' bands have made a strong connection - for example Hot Chip's "Just Like We Breakdown" moves me strongly, pretty much all of Coldplay that I have heard leaves me cold, hence the Hot Chip trakc is very real to me.

Am I knocking Coldplay? Not really, because it obviously connects with some people, just not me.

Of course, jamming with live musicians is just so much fun!

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* Soundcloud *
* Bandcamp *

Quote Dynamic Mike:

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The sound of a train can be hypnotic, which can induce certain emotions in it's passengers, but that doesn't necessarily infer that trains can compose emotive tracks (no pun intended). Particular sounds can generate emotions (crying babies, car alarms etc.) but that doesn't qualify them as being musical.

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What's with citing extreme examples? These are noises not music, although I guess some would say there's a fine line sometimes.

Also on this general off-topic topic, why can't we agree just to disagree. Everyone has different tastes and different values.

If you look up 'music' in the dictionary, it does include references to natural sounds; the music of the wind, the music of the waves, bird song.

An often-cited definition of music, coined by Edgard Varèse, is that it is "organized sound" (Goldman 1961, 133). The fifteenth edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica describes that "while there are no sounds that can be described as inherently unmusical, musicians in each culture have tended to restrict the range of sounds they will admit."

"Organisation" also seems necessary because it implies purposeful and thus human organisation. This human organizing element seems crucial to the common understanding of music. Sounds produced by non-human agents, such as waterfalls or birds, are often described as "musical", but rarely as "music"

Quote The Southern Baptist:

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If you look up 'music' in the dictionary, it does include references to natural sounds; the music of the wind, the music of the waves, bird song.

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If you look up 'le petomane' in the encylopedia it also includes references to the music of the wind

Music is in the ear of the beholder. How's that for a compromise?

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Quote Dynamic Mike:

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Quote The Southern Baptist:

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If you look up 'music' in the dictionary, it does include references to natural sounds; the music of the wind, the music of the waves, bird song.

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If you look up 'le petomane' in the encylopedia it also includes references to the music of the wind

Music is in the ear of the beholder. How's that for a compromise?

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Compromise is a dirty word.

http://xkcd.com/386/

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Twas with respect and disbelief,
That I surveyed my new Motif ...

Quote Amusikaido:

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http://xkcd.com/386/

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Brilliant! Obviously aimed at all those people who dare to challenge my opinion with their knowledge.

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Music makes the people come together

Madonna.


She's obviously never been here

Hi Pangloss

I have to admit that I haven't played a lot of those instruments, I was more saying that If I did.

But I would probably go for the Guarneri Del Gesu too as I understand some Strads can be prolematic. I certainly would love to own Del Jesu!

But of course the advantages of using these fine fiddles can be exagerated - there are plenty much less valuable instruments that can sound just as good. Yes, absolutely right, it is the player that counts! (And not just the bars rests ...)

what we should all take heart from is the fact that so many of us are so passionate about the subject in general.

and that if actually bother to have opinions, and feelings on the subject , then they care... and that in itself is a good thing.

Edited by idris y draig (28/01/10 09:55 AM)

Amen to that.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

A bit like religious fanaticism.

Quote The Southern Baptist:

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A bit like religious fanaticism.

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No, not like that.

oh, I don't know

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PA stuff on FB

http://xkcd.com/411/

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Quote Dynamic Mike:

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http://xkcd.com/411/

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Ha!!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

I Think high end gear chain is a cumulative thing and does make a real audible difference -- or should I say can

I am not so sure that many of us (me included) are good enough to get the best out of all the gear variables and settings.

In late 80's I was running a Fostex E16 based stidio with nice rooms, a decent Soundtracs desk and some pretty good mics. Our head engineer (I was the Studio Manager and second engineer)had 10 or 15 pro released albums to his name. So we knew what we were doing in a semi pro sort of way and a semi pro environment. Then John Leckie came in with a band he was looking to produce and ran/engineered some sessions. He got a quality of sound from that gear that was 20% above what we had achieved or thought we could achieve.

Top gear does make a difference but makes the most difference when used by those who have the skill, craftmanship and ability to get the most out of it

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Matt
www.krcollective.org

Quote Steve Hill:

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We're talking about the musical equivalent of the Turing Test: if in proper blind conditions you can have a dialogue with a computer and not realise it is not a real person, then it is "intelligent".

Programmed, looped etc "music" is interesting on some levels. But it's not intelligent. It has no emotional content.

That's not my opinion as opposed to anyone else's. It's fact. We have not yet invented emotional machines.

To experience music is to experience emotion. The content and depth of such performances will necessarily be lacking.

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I couldn't agree more; although I love good electronic music (and have done since long before midi), there is nothing more exciting in sequenced music than a good take with no quantization - even if it is over a quantized support arrangement.

Individual notes or controllers can be tweaked post performance, but at least you are polishing something worth polishing.

In some ways a well recorded (not over produced) sound has a similar effect imo. Perhaps good recording gear, like good instruments and setup practice don't get in the way of inspirational performance and therein lies much of the value (as already said).

I dream of Fairchild and Chandler rebuilds with the best of them but make do with plugins as a necessity

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Interesting, but the emotional content is not in the music, it's in our minds. we humans are the emotional machines you speak of and the music, even if it is very simple entails teh possibility of emotional and initellectual experiences. Even a very simple piece of music, electronic or otherwise, if well recorded and mixed can be an artwork.

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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Interesting, but the emotional content is not in the music, it's in our minds. we humans are the emotional machines you speak of and the music, even if it is very simple entails teh possibility of emotional and initellectual experiences. Even a very simple piece of music, electronic or otherwise, if well recorded and mixed can be an artwork.

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In the same way the meaning of text on a page or screen is in our minds...

We CAN respond emotionally to things not made by other humans trying to evoke emotional responses in us - a sunset or the sound of thunder for example. Perhaps some electronic music or music concrete taps into these sensibilities.

Jean Michel Jarre apparently tweaks all his sequenced parts to impart subtle unpredictability for the listener - according to researchers in the ilk of Levitin, our brains seem to tune in to the effort the musician is making and this adds to the excitement. Jarre is trying to simulate this using his matrisequencer, or protools or whatever it is he uses these days.....

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Quote GTD:

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- according to researchers in the ilk of Levitin, our brains seem to tune in to the effort the musician is making and this adds to the excitement.

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Bang on. One reason to leave the quantize off, and play the damn part all the way through sometimes. And don't stop until you get it right, all the way through, in one pass.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote Steve Hill:

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Programmed, looped etc "music" is interesting on some levels. But it's not intelligent. It has no emotional content.
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I'm sorry but that comment is virging on insanity for me!

WHat if the programmed "loop" is a piano piece, classical in style, played really well and realistic sounding.

Why would it not be emotional because it's been written on a computer?

What if you were to replace that piano sound with a synthesized noise but keep the timing and the expression similar or the same. Would it lose it's emotion? I think not!

Trance music, for me, can be really emotional. But that's because i like it, i like the melodies. And beleive me some of them are very emotional sounding. BUt perhaps only to people that like the style. If the style didnt do it, you woudlnt be interested enough to bother being emotional. You'd just write it off straight away.

A looped percussion beat, sure, isnt going to be emotional. But a melody is a melody. Programmed or not, if someone hits some emotional chord progressions, it will have some emotion, be t dark and haunting, uplifting, or joyful or whatever!

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www.myspace.com/michaeldow www.myspace.com/portasoundband

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk_Cl4-agjU&feature=related


Quick example of a piece of uplifting trance. You may or may not find it emotional. But it does it for me and many others!

Or of course there's the ferry corsten mix of adagio for strings by samuel barber (william orbits re-release) Awesome, and programmed.

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www.myspace.com/michaeldow www.myspace.com/portasoundband

Quote Michael Dow:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk_Cl4-agjU&feature=related


Quick example of a piece of uplifting trance. You may or may not find it emotional. But it does it for me and many others!

Or of course there's the ferry corsten mix of adagio for strings by samuel barber (william orbits re-release) Awesome, and programmed.

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Michael, please don't take offence, but this music is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

It is to my ears very, very musical, but (imho) robbed of so much potential in having conveniently repeated arp and drum loops.

If the producer were to have allowed each part, including trivial repeating parts, to have evolved or developed in subtle ways, the whole listening experience could have been much more engaging.

If the subtle changes in drums or arpeggios or whatever, are engineered into the music in a way which is sympathetic to how the music is changing and evolving, then there IS feeling, even though it is sequenced electronic trance music.

Put simply, (again imho), the less lazy the sequencing, the more involving the music will be.

Isn't the use of slow filters and modulated delay or pumped compression on repeating parts an attempt to give them more' life'?

I would love to ask a sizable number of 'trance' afficionados to compare an arpeggio or drum loop which repeats unchanging with one which changes subtly over time. Would the answer depend on whether the loops were heard in isolation or in context in the music? I don't know, but I'd bet (if their attention is drawn to it) a significant number of people would prefer something changing subtly to something static.

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