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Kwackman



Joined: 07/11/02
Posts: 1338
Loc: Belfast
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #887613 - 15/01/11 11:53 AM
Quote idris y draig:

"we find customers with a technical background have a harder time hearing the improvement.... "




You've got to admire the skills in coming up with a reply like that.
Whoever he/she was should get a job in a government spin department.


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Tomás Mulcahy
active member


Joined: 25/04/01
Posts: 2913
Loc: Cork, Ireland.
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: David O' Connell]
      #887638 - 15/01/11 02:19 PM
Quote David O' Connell:

It would be nice though if someone did a really well controlled test



We could do that! I've done such tests with external wordclocks and Vovox mic cable. Can you guess the results?

There are a lot of variables here. Firstly, to ensure that you really can hear a difference, you have to be able to switch between the two things in less than about 10 seconds because our auditory memory is short. That's a fact. Check out "This is your Brain on Music" for that and other startling stuff.

Secondly, it has to be a blind test. Otherwise, if you know you're hearing the one you paid cash for, then you will very likely prefer it. Conversely, if you're a sceptic, you will want that one to sound worse!

With power supply stuff, it could well be that there is an earthing issue. A simple ground loop can mean that you will definitely hear a difference caused by cable and connector impedance. More impedance will raise the noise caused by the loop. So putting in fancy cables will lower that noise. Of course, there are cheaper ways to achieve the same result!

Less likely is that the rectifier circuitry is poor or faulty.

So most of the time your ears can be dead right, but there are other variables at play.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: ken long]
      #887650 - 15/01/11 02:50 PM
Quote:

Quote:

[How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?




I'd give them more than I give this present government, for example...




Out of interest, is there ANY era since you became politically aware in which you wouldn't have used that line? :-)


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 20805
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Tomás Mulcahy]
      #887651 - 15/01/11 02:55 PM
I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.

I've sat in on countless expertly presented comparisons at trade shows and in private demos and been utterly convinced that cable x sounded significantly 'better' than the 'standard' cables. Yet when I compared the cable X at home with my own gear I've not experienced the same benefits at all... and in some cases the cable X was definitely worse in some clear, repeatable and measureable way!

It seems to me that most if not all of these kinds of demos are flawed because of the way we can be fooled and biased so ridiculously simply.

And where there are perceived and repeatable benefits my experience is that it is always in cases where the equipment is substandard in some way because of poor or cost-limited designs.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2309
Loc: . ...
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #887656 - 15/01/11 03:08 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

I agree completely with the Bladder




This is a dangerous development and one that must be countered at all costs. I can only put it down to Hugh's recent bout of ill health, which must have lead to some sort of mental aberration or feebleness, similar to that experienced, when one drops a baby on its head.

In view of this, I can only hope that you will be better soon and able to disagree with me on all points!
______________________________________________________

As for the AB comparison or test, this has been done several times by all sorts of people and the results are always the same - either noise levels increase very, very slightly (you really need a good oscilloscope or, better still, an Audio Precision test rig to do this) or nothing happens, depending on the type of equipment being powered. Most of the time, there is no difference.


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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
Posts: 3294
Loc: Rochester, UK
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #887666 - 15/01/11 04:13 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote ken long:

As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?




How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?



... about 300mm to go round the neck and another 600 to reach the nearest joist

Sorry, guys. I tried to keep out of this really I did, even switched the computer off for a while.

I know there's no cure for gullibility but it really, really annoys me when I see, or hear of people being taken to the cleaners like this.

P.S.
On a related note, elswhere on here I posted a link to a guy who did some real A/B testing on domestic speaker cables as well as instrument measurements and calculations. His conclusion? Use 4mm Mains cable.

Edited by Folderol (15/01/11 04:18 PM)


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #887670 - 15/01/11 04:32 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.

I've sat in on countless expertly presented comparisons at trade shows and in private demos and been utterly convinced that cable x sounded significantly 'better' than the 'standard' cables. Yet when I compared the cable X at home with my own gear I've not experienced the same benefits at all... and in some cases the cable X was definitely worse in some clear, repeatable and measureable way!

It seems to me that most if not all of these kinds of demos are flawed because of the way we can be fooled and biased so ridiculously simply.

And where there are perceived and repeatable benefits my experience is that it is always in cases where the equipment is substandard in some way because of poor or cost-limited designs.

hugh




Would it lose SOS a LOT of advertising if it ran a feature debunking the whole Magic Cables thing? I was impressed with the recent comparison of Master Clocks which, after testing various expensive bits of gear, was brave enough to end with "but you almost certainly don't need one!"


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InactiveX



Joined: 22/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: England
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Kwackman]
      #887675 - 15/01/11 04:44 PM
Quote Kwackman:

Quote idris y draig:

"we find customers with a technical background have a harder time hearing the improvement.... "




You've got to admire the skills in coming up with a reply like that.
Whoever he/she was should get a job in a government spin department.



"these more technically minded listeners are typically the "left side of the brain" people; less aesthetically minded and therefore unable to discern the benefits the FraudCord® kettle-lead offers, and more likely to blindly trust science."


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ROLO46



Joined: 29/11/07
Posts: 1204
Loc: Cotswolds
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Dave B]
      #887686 - 15/01/11 05:59 PM
I met dear old Russ this year at the Bristol hifi show
He was demming SooLoos a very expensive hard drive juke box(£7k ish)
I asked him how it was different from ITunes which is free and runs on any computer
He hadn't heard of Tunes running on a computer just on IPods and seemed quite mystified at my suggestion and impudence.
I think he lives in a land once carved from nature by Ivor Teifenbrun , a flat earth, middle kingdom for dwarves and unicorns.

--------------------
I am the Walrus.


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necromunger



Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 954
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #887728 - 15/01/11 10:00 PM
Quote:

I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.





print it then, that's the point there ain't any difference and that shop should be shut down asap.


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Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: necromunger]
      #887755 - 16/01/11 01:42 AM
whilst i entirely agree in principle....., on that same basis, virtually every hifi shop on earth should be similarly terminated.....


which might be a little harsh.


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Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #887756 - 16/01/11 01:43 AM
actually, scratch that..... it would seem you have a point, and that the logical result is probably a very good idea.....


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Kwackman



Joined: 07/11/02
Posts: 1338
Loc: Belfast
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: necromunger]
      #887777 - 16/01/11 10:38 AM
Quote necromunger:

Quote:

I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.





print it then, that's the point there ain't any difference and that shop should be shut down asap.




It would make no difference. Even if it could be reliably proved cable "A" doesn"t sound any different from cable "B", do you really think the hi-fi market would change? Do you think the kind of person who spends a 4 figure sum on his interconnects is going to worry about some test in a magazine he's probably never heard off?
Marketing BS rules the world, science ain't going to change that.

To be honest, the worst thing Russ Andrews is doing is taking money of rich people, or if you wanted to be cruel, rich people with little sense.

--------------------
Cubase, guitars.


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Kwackman]
      #887782 - 16/01/11 12:05 PM
Quote Kwackman:

It would make no difference. Even if it could be reliably proved cable "A" doesn"t sound any different from cable "B", do you really think the hi-fi market would change? Do you think the kind of person who spends a 4 figure sum on his interconnects is going to worry about some test in a magazine he's probably never heard off?
Marketing BS rules the world, science ain't going to change that.

To be honest, the worst thing Russ Andrews is doing is taking money of rich people, or if you wanted to be cruel, rich people with little sense.




I'm more sorry for the punter in Currys who, after buying a £30 DVD player gets conned into adding a £50 SCART cable. I recently accompanied a friend shopping for a new TV. While negotiating the deal, we suggested to the salesman he might throw in a SCART cable. He refused until we made it clear we weren't interested in the one half-way down THIS page, but would be perfectly happy with one from HERE . We got it.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 20805
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #887810 - 16/01/11 03:26 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Would it lose SOS a LOT of advertising if it ran a feature debunking the whole Magic Cables thing?




We don't get a significant amount of advertising for this kind of product, and I think we all debunk the magic cables thing as we go along generally -- especially at trade show Q&A sessions and in the forums.

The problem with trying to debunk in the magazine is that no matter how carefully it is done, there will follow a tirade of companies being critical about the process, or saying, yes, but our product is different and you now have to review it...

Quote:

I was impressed with the recent comparison of Master Clocks which, after testing various expensive bits of gear, was brave enough to end with "but you almost certainly don't need one!"




Yes... and I refer you back to my previous statement

Audio, speaker and power cables (and their connectors) need to be adequate for the intended purpose: no more and no less. Buying from the catalogues of reputable professional wholesale suppliers usually ensures sensible cost-effective purchases.

Inadequate cables will obviously degrade the system performance to some extent and may result in audible differences. In some conditions those differences may even be perceived as 'better'... But if you are using adequate cables and hear a difference it will be because something in the system is inadquate. It may be a feeble power supply, or one with inadequate ffiltering; it may be an unstable output driver or line receiver, or one susceptible to external interference; or it may be poor grounding inside or around the system.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #887826 - 16/01/11 04:19 PM
Seems SOS might be in a position to actually make a difference then!

Make that statement in the mag, maybe in an editorial. Let the complaints from Monster et al. come in. Do the tests. Maybe we're all wrong, premium "interconnects" DO sound better. Those oxygen molecules DO impede the music. SOS carries no audiophile baggage, we'll get a straight answer.

If we're lucky the issue might even catch the public imagination (like the Autotune stunt last year). National exposure for SOS, lots of new readers!


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InactiveX



Joined: 22/07/05
Posts: 322
Loc: England
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #887843 - 16/01/11 06:08 PM
While it's always good to debunk this 21st century arcana (and have a good laugh in the process), I think I'd rather SOS spent time and resources reviewing things other than something its readers (seem to, unanimously) dismiss as nonsense.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 20805
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: InactiveX]
      #887975 - 17/01/11 12:20 PM
Absolutely. It's always more benficial to review things that our readers are likely to buy and appreciate, rather than products which are complete no-hopers.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Chevytraveller
member


Joined: 13/05/00
Posts: 713
Loc: London
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #887978 - 17/01/11 12:23 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Absolutely. It's always more benficial to review things that our readers are likely to buy and appreciate, rather than products which are complete no-hopers.

hugh




There is always the danger that people may think such an article is a mis-timed April fool



--------------------
MBP 15", Motu 896, X-Station, LogicX, Reason7, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emulator II, E-Synth, Obie-4V, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3089
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #887979 - 17/01/11 12:43 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Seems SOS might be in a position to actually make a difference then!

Make that statement in the mag, maybe in an editorial. Let the complaints from Monster et al. come in. Do the tests. Maybe we're all wrong, premium "interconnects" DO sound better. Those oxygen molecules DO impede the music. SOS carries no audiophile baggage, we'll get a straight answer.

If we're lucky the issue might even catch the public imagination (like the Autotune stunt last year). National exposure for SOS, lots of new readers!




These expensive cables carry a placebo effect and snob value. In a way its no different from designer clothes - do they make you a better person? Yes if you believe it, and you'll be more confident and positive as a result. No if you are cynical and bitter and believe you've been ripped off.

So yes the science is quite laughable, but its no different from cosmetic ads which feature false eyelashes and camera trickery. Its there purely to make the buyer feel good about their purchase.

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary. They've even run articles about cheap home speakers and concluded they aren't quite so unsuitable for mixing as the popular monitor manufacturers claim. They don't need to insult their audience's intelligence by using long, scientific tests to disprove the claims of some audiophile nutters. A casual dismissal will suffice.


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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5582
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: johnny h]
      #887993 - 17/01/11 01:18 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Seems SOS might be in a position to actually make a difference then!

Make that statement in the mag, maybe in an editorial. Let the complaints from Monster et al. come in. Do the tests. Maybe we're all wrong, premium "interconnects" DO sound better. Those oxygen molecules DO impede the music. SOS carries no audiophile baggage, we'll get a straight answer.

If we're lucky the issue might even catch the public imagination (like the Autotune stunt last year). National exposure for SOS, lots of new readers!




These expensive cables carry a placebo effect and snob value. In a way its no different from designer clothes - do they make you a better person? Yes if you believe it, and you'll be more confident and positive as a result. No if you are cynical and bitter and believe you've been ripped off.

So yes the science is quite laughable, but its no different from cosmetic ads which feature false eyelashes and camera trickery. Its there purely to make the buyer feel good about their purchase.

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary. They've even run articles about cheap home speakers and concluded they aren't quite so unsuitable for mixing as the popular monitor manufacturers claim. They don't need to insult their audience's intelligence by using long, scientific tests to disprove the claims of some audiophile nutters. A casual dismissal will suffice.




Yes but, allegedly:

Really
Useless
Suspect
Science

Always
Needs
Direct
Responses
Every
Week

or

Almost
Never
Delivers
Results
Expected
Whatever

Or

Always
Nicks
Dire
Revenue from
Every
Wallet

or...

Reg


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: johnny h]
      #888009 - 17/01/11 01:46 PM
Quote johnny h:

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.




Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.


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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5582
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #888013 - 17/01/11 01:50 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote johnny h:

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.




Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.




I seem to remember one of the last two Studio SoS articles showing some cheap cables being modified cheaply to provide a cheap but improved wiring solution for an inexpensive desk.

Reg


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #888041 - 17/01/11 04:09 PM
Quote RegressiveRock:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote johnny h:

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.




Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.




I seem to remember one of the last two Studio SoS articles showing some cheap cables being modified cheaply to provide a cheap but improved wiring solution for an inexpensive desk.

Reg




Great! Just remind us which one, and confirm the point that more expensive cables would have been no improvement was clearly made - then my crusade is over!


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steve355



Joined: 02/03/07
Posts: 907
Loc: Stevenage, Herts
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #888046 - 17/01/11 04:25 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Absolutely. It's always more benficial to review things that our readers are likely to buy and appreciate, rather than products which are complete no-hopers.

hugh




OT and slightly facetious - but can we assume then that products that SOS does NOT review must be no hopers?


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Huge Longjohns
long-serving member


Joined: 10/04/03
Posts: 1729
Loc: Where the black rocks stand gu...
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Dave B]
      #888051 - 17/01/11 04:56 PM
What fascinates me about stuff like this is whether the vendor (Mr A in this case) actually believes in the benefits himself (albeit in a self-deluded manner) or is simply a hard-nosed scammer happy to part the fool from his money?

I've met a couple of people who sell alternative therapy treatments, for example, and they were very genuine people who absolutely believed that the rubbish they spouted was true. The healing power of crystals, was one, for example. And although they only charged £20 for a session, rather than a grand for a mains lead, the principle is broadly the same.

--------------------
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 20805
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #888057 - 17/01/11 05:28 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.




I can't tell you definitively the last time it was said, but it is said frequently. A very quick search of the archives produces these examples:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan02/articles/faq0102.asp

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov01/articles/qa1101.asp#Anchor-42983

I'm sure it's come up in Q&As much more recently too... but were you to phrase a suitable question here that might well find it's way into the next issue and your need to 'push' for further reinforcement would be satiated!

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 20805
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: steve355]
      #888059 - 17/01/11 05:31 PM
Quote steve355:

OT and slightly facetious - but can we assume then that products that SOS does NOT review must be no hopers?




I think that's a bit of a jump too far -- the magazine has a limited amount of space so not every product can be reviewed, and I'm sure there are excellent products out there we haven't reviewed. But personally, I would only consider buying products that are reviewed where possible!

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #888074 - 17/01/11 07:06 PM
several companies over the years have learned to their cost, that if they send iffy stuff for review.... it WILL get an unbiased review stating it's crap..... politely, but firmly.... and that these reviews DO get printed..... as a result, no one sends them anything that they know has very much in the way of crappiness.... suspect performance, or dodgy science.....


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #888076 - 17/01/11 07:10 PM
Quote Huge Longjohns:

What fascinates me about stuff like this is whether the vendor (Mr A in this case) actually believes in the benefits himself (albeit in a self-deluded manner) or is simply a hard-nosed scammer happy to part the fool from his money?

I've met a couple of people who sell alternative therapy treatments, for example, and they were very genuine people who absolutely believed that the rubbish they spouted was true. The healing power of crystals, was one, for example. And although they only charged £20 for a session, rather than a grand for a mains lead, the principle is broadly the same.




There's a lot of it around. I've recently run up against "Reiki" - basically Laying On Of Hands plus a pyramid scheme for buying levels of training. You wouldn't want to ban all unproved alternative medicine, placebos are, after all, relatively cheap. But I think there's some scamming going on here. Another friend's life has become dominated by SGI Buddhism. Harmless enough at first sight - but she seems to be writing a lot of cheques. I'm slightly surprised the current mania for cotton-wool Health & Safety hasn't extended to protecting innocents from such as these.


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Dave Rowles



Joined: 28/02/08
Posts: 1409
Loc: Isle of Man
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #888097 - 17/01/11 09:30 PM
Quote:

There's a lot of it around. I've recently run up against "Reiki" - basically Laying On Of Hands plus a pyramid scheme for buying levels of training. You wouldn't want to ban all unproved alternative medicine, placebos are, after all, relatively cheap. But I think there's some scamming going on here. Another friend's life has become dominated by SGI Buddhism. Harmless enough at first sight - but she seems to be writing a lot of cheques. I'm slightly surprised the current mania for cotton-wool Health & Safety hasn't extended to protecting innocents from such as these.



This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.

Alternative therapies do work. I had a rather major illness that traditional medicine (At the time) didn't even want to admit exists, and alternative therapies did help me get through it.

My mother was given 1 year to live when diagnosed with cancer, and only 10 years, and a LOT of alternative therapy, later did she finally succumb.

Now back to regular programming.

On the case of cables, a well made cable will last longer and so spending a bit on them, especially when touring. So if you are unable to make them yourself it is a good idea. There is a point where you're spending more than you get the benefit of a well made cable, but that doesn't mean the slightly more expensive ones are not worth the little bit extra.

In the case of the £30 cable for a £50 DVD player, that's clearly a stupid suggestion. However, free cheap scart cables do fall apart and break, where as slightly better made ones tend not to.

--------------------
www.manninmusic.com
Sound Engineer, Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Edited by Exavior Music (17/01/11 09:38 PM)


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Dave Rowles]
      #888105 - 17/01/11 10:10 PM
Quote Exavior Music:

This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.




When something works, you don't need a personal opinion. No-one has an opinion about asprin stopping a headache. Placebos require an opinion. Religious faith can, indeed, be a very strong opinion. But when you set science to measuring intangibles, you can get just about any result you WANT to get! There's THIS. But then there's THIS . And THIS . And that's only from a few moments on Google.
Quote:




the case of the £30 cable for a £50 DVD player




It was even sillier than that! Other way around.


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Steve Hill
member


Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Dave Rowles]
      #888188 - 18/01/11 08:14 AM
Quote Exavior Music:

This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.




Yes it is (off topic) although there are parallels. Funnily enough the Russ Andrews ruling got an honourable mention in a discussion on homeopathy at the Richard Dawkins site the other day. Some so-called alternative therapies work, e.g. Chinese medicine, osteopathy. Most are complete rubbish. There's an old saying: what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

A recent study by Melbourne University found that in two thirds of cases alternative remedies harmed kids (in several cases killing them) because the so-called "placebo effect" operated on the parents to the extent that they chose not to use mainstream medicine.

This is peer-reviewed, published science, not "opinion".

As for prayer, I'd rather not digress even further off topic but suggest you check out some of the peer-reviewed literature. A double blind trial found it could even be harmful. I'll concede this study shows prayer can help some people to deal with harmful emotions, but if you believe in a god, that's self-fulfilling. It's a sociological survey based on questionnaires in a country where 80% of the population are religious, not a double blind trial. Ask a bunch of atheists whether they find prayer beneficial. Meditation or anger management courses are generally beneficial too.

Like many others, Russ Andrews is (possibly unknowingly) playing with people's convictions that they want something to be right: otherwise they have to admit their foolishness in paying out a lot of money in the first place. Their probably compromised self-esteem won't permit that.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5582
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #888215 - 18/01/11 10:42 AM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote RegressiveRock:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote johnny h:

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.




Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.




I seem to remember one of the last two Studio SoS articles showing some cheap cables being modified cheaply to provide a cheap but improved wiring solution for an inexpensive desk.

Reg




Great! Just remind us which one, and confirm the point that more expensive cables would have been no improvement was clearly made - then my crusade is over!




Do I need to dust it with icing sugar and put a cherry on top as well?

Reg


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5345
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #888217 - 18/01/11 10:51 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Some so-called alternative therapies work, e.g. Chinese medicine, osteopathy.




I used (he's retired now) a therapist who labelled himself "osteopath". He got excellent results. Our sessions generally started with massage. Then ultrasound, maybe then the electric pads. If the problem was back or neck pain he might do the classic osteopaths yank, leading to the "click". But not always. He was very good at all this, we got excellent results. And 90% of what he did was standard physiotherapy. (He dismissed "cranial osteopathy as quackery.)

Another anecdote. On a Pantomime season in the West Country I ran across a lady who offered "Sports Massage" at the local Sports Centre. She didn't care HOW I'd strained a shoulder, and set to work. Unlike my osteopath friend, this one didn't have the touch. And what she really WANTED to do was cure everything my manipulating my feet.

I know a very nice lady who is absolutely convinced of one form of "alternative" because her child, who the doctors had given up on, lived a further 6 months after having this treatment. How can you argue? I also know a lady who was anti-doctor and refused medical aid for her son. It was meningitis, he died.

Lots of anecdotes. If you offered a suffering CAT homeopathy instead of proper veterinary care the RSPCA would try to prosecute.


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3089
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #888218 - 18/01/11 10:52 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote Exavior Music:

This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.




Yes it is (off topic) although there are parallels. Funnily enough the Russ Andrews ruling got an honourable mention in a discussion on homeopathy at the Richard Dawkins site the other day. Some so-called alternative therapies work, e.g. Chinese medicine, osteopathy. Most are complete rubbish. There's an old saying: what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

A recent study by Melbourne University found that in two thirds of cases alternative remedies harmed kids (in several cases killing them) because the so-called "placebo effect" operated on the parents to the extent that they chose not to use mainstream medicine.

This is peer-reviewed, published science, not "opinion".




A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

Can you imagine the advertising and PR blitz that would have followed a new drug which cuts the risk of cancer by 20%?

Unfortunately for them, the drug in question is aspirin, which you can buy for 1p a go at tescos. http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/12December/Pages/aspirin-and-cancer-risk.aspx< /a>]
Quote:


Like many others, Russ Andrews is (possibly unknowingly) playing with people's convictions that they want something to be right: otherwise they have to admit their foolishness in paying out a lot of money in the first place. Their probably compromised self-esteem won't permit that.



Well yes this is true. Personally if someone has spent an enormous amount of money on boutique hifi gear, gold connections and whatever, I'm just going to be happy that he's happy about it. Its not my duty to 'prove' to him that's he is a gullible fool who is deluding himself into believing in the emperor's new clothes.

Indeed there are many studies which have shown that hearing is extremely subjective and can be influenced by many factors, visual and psychological. If the whole experience is beneficial to the listener I think its better to just nod politely and let them enjoy it.


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Tomás Mulcahy
active member


Joined: 25/04/01
Posts: 2913
Loc: Cork, Ireland.
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: johnny h]
      #888220 - 18/01/11 10:57 AM
Quote johnny h:


A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.




If only it was that simple.

I recommend reading Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science".

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


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Tui
active member


Joined: 02/09/02
Posts: 3274
Loc: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Dave B]
      #888233 - 18/01/11 12:12 PM
This is all very OT, and my apologies to the mods.

However...

To get an idea whether or not all spiritual healing, laying on of hands and prayer are quackery, I'd suggest to read up on the life and work of Harry Edwards. Some of his former patients are probably still alive, too.


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zenguitarModerator
active member


Joined: 05/12/02
Posts: 8490
Loc: Devon
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Tomás Mulcahy]
      #888237 - 18/01/11 12:29 PM
Quote Tomás Mulcahy:

Quote johnny h:


A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.




If only it was that simple.

I recommend reading Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science".




And he has an excellent Bad Science web site too. Always makes for interesting reading.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.


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elfabyanos



Joined: 04/04/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Brighton, UK
Re: Russ Andrews get slapped wrists ... new [Re: Dave B]
      #888268 - 18/01/11 01:37 PM
At the end of the day Russ Andrews made a claim that could not be independently substantiated. This does not have any direct relation to anything else, except for what we perceive may be other products similarly over-egging the benefits.

The example of microphone cables is not a fair comparison because it does not specify a particular cable to investigate. However, to expand that point to relevance any product whatsoever will have an variability of effectiveness depending on its quality - quality meaning whether it is good for the purpose or not (which is irrelevant of whether the item was designed intentionally to be good at that purpose).

Yet, whilst it can be expected that products will vary in quality, that says nothing about the price range within which the product goes from rubbish to good. I would hazard a guess that for microphone cables that range is from 10p/metre bad, to £1/metre good.

Yet to bring this back to the ruling, at least there would be an electronically measurable difference between the absolutely poor (10p/metre) and the near-as-dammit-good-as-your-gonna-get-from-shoving-electrons-through-a-conductor (£1/metre). Russ Andrew's claims were not measurable. End.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/the.seed


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