Quote johnny h:

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A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

Can you imagine the advertising and PR blitz that would have followed a new drug which cuts the risk of cancer by 20%?

Unfortunately for them, the drug in question is aspirin, which you can buy for 1p a go at tescos. http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/12December/Pages/aspirin-and-cancer-risk.aspx< /a>

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Its unfair to criticize science when the entire point of the peer-reviewed process is to mitigate for this. Science is the first field to have created such a system, created because it is well understood scientists are people first and can screw up just like anyone else.

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http://www.myspace.com/the.seed

Errrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm....

Zapperators

Really!?!?!?!?!

Reg

Quote johnny h:

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Can you imagine the advertising and PR blitz that would have followed a new drug which cuts the risk of cancer by 20%?

Unfortunately for them, the drug in question is aspirin, ...

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I certainly remember it being headline news when the research turned that up. Ah, yes, the 'R' word ...

Chris

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote Steve Hill:

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As for prayer, I'd rather not digress even further off topic but suggest you check out some of the peer-reviewed literature. A double blind trial found it could even be harmful. I'll concede this study shows prayer can help some people to deal with harmful emotions, but if you believe in a god, that's self-fulfilling. It's a sociological survey based on questionnaires in a country where 80% of the population are religious, not a double blind trial. Ask a bunch of atheists whether they find prayer beneficial. Meditation or anger management courses are generally beneficial too.

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Here's a page of some peer-reviewed research on prayer

Documents both positive and negative results.

You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should. That proves it for me.

In the case of cables however, I'm all for not spending ridiculous amounts on them

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Quote Exavior Music:

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You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should. That proves it for me.

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The paradox being - I don't know whether to congratulate, or commiserate at her reward being delayed by 10 years!

Quote Exavior Music:

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You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should.

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You mean the science of statistics, right? And the average. Stats also tells us that there will always be stuff outside the normal distribution. It is surprisingly accurate! The problem is that all too human doctors sometimes forget what an average actually means. Medical science is far from godlike so does not require capitalisation (I know you meant it sarcastically).

Hans Rosling's BBC4 shows are very illuminating on the topic of stats.

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote Exavior Music:

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You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should. That proves it for me.

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With all due respect for your beliefs, have you considered that prognoses such as this one sometimes turn out to be inaccurate? Just asking, as I would not have accepted that as "proof" of anything, certainly not something as specific as the power of prayer. But I do understand (as a non-religious person) that belief in prayer is a big part of faith, regardless of empirical evidence or proof.

Quote elfabyanos:

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Its unfair to criticize science when the entire point of the peer-reviewed process is to mitigate for this. Science is the first field to have created such a system, created because it is well understood scientists are people first and can screw up just like anyone else.

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It is never unfair to criticise science! Peer review is considered by the scientific community to be the most effective way of qualifying the research of others. It does not discount criticism from "non-scientists"!

Quote InactiveX:

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It is never unfair to criticise science! Peer review is considered by the scientific community to be the most effective way of qualifying the research of others. It does not discount criticism from "non-scientists"!

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Well, it CAN be quite short with "I'm going to discount all the evidence because I believe something else"!

... now what was it this thread was about...?

To get back to somewhere near the topic. New Scientist (a superb mag and the only other one I subscribe to) shares our disdain for overpriced cables and drew my attention to this beauty. Ignore the fact that it's unbelievably overpriced, just read some of the reviews! As an example, here's the one at the top of the list of over 400:-

Quote:

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This connection isn't sound. If my calculations are correct, it should be sometime around 2007 for whomever is reading this. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES. Something... happens with them. Something came through, something from somewhere else. We were overrun in days, not many of us are left. WE LIVE UNDERGROUND! ONLY YOU CAN STOP IT NOW. SAVE US. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES.

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CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote elfabyanos:

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At the end of the day Russ Andrews made a claim that could not be independently substantiated. This does not have any direct relation to anything else, except for what we perceive may be other products similarly over-egging the benefits.

The example of microphone cables is not a fair comparison because it does not specify a particular cable to investigate. However, to expand that point to relevance any product whatsoever will have an variability of effectiveness depending on its quality - quality meaning whether it is good for the purpose or not (which is irrelevant of whether the item was designed intentionally to be good at that purpose).

Yet, whilst it can be expected that products will vary in quality, that says nothing about the price range within which the product goes from rubbish to good. I would hazard a guess that for microphone cables that range is from 10p/metre bad, to £1/metre good.

Yet to bring this back to the ruling, at least there would be an electronically measurable difference between the absolutely poor (10p/metre) and the near-as-dammit-good-as-your-gonna-get-from-shoving-electrons-through-a-conductor (£1/metre). Russ Andrew's claims were not measurable. End.

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What ARE you rabbiting on about?

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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To get back to somewhere near the topic. New Scientist (a superb mag and the only other one I subscribe to) shares our disdain for overpriced cables and drew my attention to this beauty. Ignore the fact that it's unbelievably overpriced, just read some of the reviews! As an example, here's the one at the top of the list of over 400:-

Quote:

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This connection isn't sound. If my calculations are correct, it should be sometime around 2007 for whomever is reading this. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES. Something... happens with them. Something came through, something from somewhere else. We were overrun in days, not many of us are left. WE LIVE UNDERGROUND! ONLY YOU CAN STOP IT NOW. SAVE US. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES.

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CC

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genius!

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote:

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It is never unfair to criticise science! Peer review is considered by the scientific community to be the most effective way of qualifying the research of others. It does not discount criticism from "non-scientists"!

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Erm, yes it can be unfair to criticise science.

By all means criticise science if you've found contrary evidence to what the current scientific thinking says. That's the definition of proper science. But don't criticise science for reaching conclusions (based on evidence and reasoning) that are different to what your Holy Book Of Choice says. Or your drugs policy statement either.

Or at least, you can if you want. But when the scientists stand up and say "bugger off until you've learnt how to talk with the grown-ups", it's definitely unfair to throw a paddy and say "they're all against me! it's a conspiracy!"

Quote Steve Hill:

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Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

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He's right. But do you find that his relentless, chirpy populism gets annoying? Just as Dawkins goes ON and ON about religion when all he really has to say is "Yes, I agree it's hard to prove a negative. But there isn't a scrap of evidence."

Quote Steve Hill:

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Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

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Ah fantastic! He writes well as always.

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote Steve Hill:

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Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

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He's right. But do you find that his relentless, chirpy populism gets annoying? Just as Dawkins goes ON and ON about religion when all he really has to say is "Yes, I agree it's hard to prove a negative. But there isn't a scrap of evidence."

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Yes Dawkins is every bit as fanatical in his views on atheism as the religions he rants about. He's made a very good living out of it.

...on the other hand Newtonian Physics looked pretty damned good until 1905 when Einstein proposed the Special Theory of Relativity. Sir Isaac still works very well for most day-to-day tasks but it isn't the whole of the story. Perhaps the folks who can reliably discern differences in different colour cables just work closer to the speed-of-light than we mortals.

a.


Oh, as a general guideline I tend to find that in most "non-proven" cases, "I believe" can be best substituted with "I like the idea that" for greater clarity: this works for UFOs,religion and Hi Fi amongst others.



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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote Andi:

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Oh, as a general guideline I tend to find that in most "non-proven" cases, "I believe" can be best substituted with "I like the idea that" for greater clarity: this works for UFOs,religion and Hi Fi amongst others.

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Quoted for truth!

Also any company selling something by using the word "Quantum" in the advertising is trying to gammon you (or their investors, or both), some of the hifi kookery are guilty of this.....

In fact, anyone who has not got a reasonably serious Physics/Math background who uses the word quantum is almost certainly blowing smoke, period.

Russ is bad, but by no means the worst, and there is actually a scary amount of "dubious" marketing associated with the prosumer (and to an extent) the professional studio audio kit game. Phrases like "warms up" (If you mean "has serious non linearities" just say so already), "Has a sparkly top end" (generally means "more top end then a long tailed cat in a rocking chair factory"), and such are just as common in professional circles as they are in HiFi.
If I had to pick out two areas that suffer from it massively in this game it would probably be Mic Preamps and Guitar cables.... We can all cite examples.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

And anything called "pro" isn't :-)

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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And anything called "pro" isn't :-)

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Thought that was a given (with a very few exceptions)!

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

How can these companies get away with it? Here's a speaker cable that's just so shockingly priced I had to wip my eyes and pinch myself to see if I was dreaming :

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1&region= UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=3378&customer_id=PAA2092019611252XMYHLOFHJYUMEWJD

Don't knock it man. It's on discount....



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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

"Wizard's First Rule: people are stupid." Richard and Kahlan frowned even more. "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

My personal idea of this whole Russ Andrews thing is that the company bulsh*t and sell these nice looking cables in the hope that people believe their lies and spend their hard earned money on this crap, while Russ Andrews sit there in their office trying not to laugh at all the dumb idiots being fooled by them. That's what i'm pretty sure is going on. I wonder if they've ever sold any of those £14,201.10 speaker cables. It makes me laugh how the put .10 at the end, I mean 10p, but like Tesco say, "every littler helps". lol

I guess legally they're not doing anything wrong but morally they're thieves, cruel and selfish human beings taking advantage of people who don't know any better.

Quote gary shaw12:

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How can these companies get away with it? Here's a speaker cable that's just so shockingly priced I had to wip my eyes and pinch myself to see if I was dreaming :

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1&region= UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=3378&customer_id=PAA2092019611252XMYHLOFHJYUMEWJD

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Quote Taken from the Russ Andrews website:

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This item is out of stock but should be despatched in 2-3 weeks of ordering.

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Translation: even we do not want to tie up our working capital by holding a piece of wire that costs the same as a very usable family car in stock.

Reg

It's rediculous isn't it, because £14,000 (what Russ Andrews is charging for 1 speaker cable) could actually buy you a very nice used Audi S4 saloon sports car.

£14'000 for a speaker cable! The core must be made of 24k solid gold lol

Better off going to a Richer Sounds store for your cable.

I buy all mine from Van Damme, i've had an account with them since I had my recording studio, they're great cable, very decent shielding too, and that's about as much as I wanna pay.

My speaker cables are clipped from a drum of DIY store ‘cooker flex’!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote gary shaw12:

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I buy all mine from Van Damme,

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I buy much of mine from the electrical wholesaler in town. Two core heavy duty (1.5mm^2 16 Amp) cable. £0.75/metre

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Frankly this is just ridiculous. You don't need expensive components to make cables sound better.



As audio enthusiasts you should all know that sound travels better through the colour purple. Purple cables have adequate insulation but also allow sound to travel easier with less resistance due to the colour's wavelength.

As a side note, I've already worked out the best shade of purple and will sell you the perfect cables for just £500 per foot. (Just ignore the LYNXNET PJ1 written on the side)



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11011110110010101111 - 110000001111111111101110 - 101110101101
Hexadecimal binary coding anyone?

I use low voltage lighting cable - really illuminates the fine sound detail

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote Freuman:

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As audio enthusiasts you should all know that sound travels better through the colour purple. Purple cables have adequate insulation but also allow sound to travel easier with less resistance due to the colour's wavelength.

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This is why Prince is so good.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote gary shaw12:

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It's rediculous isn't it, because £14,000 (what Russ Andrews is charging for 1 speaker cable) could actually buy you a very nice used Audi S4 saloon sports car.

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That's just so funny. Anyone stupid enough to pay £14,000 for a cable, frankly deserves to be charged £14,000 for a cable!

Surely nobody has ever actually bought this cable though. I bet the sales figures for all these ridiculous things are very, very low.

That's true Johny but you only need one [ ****** ] to bite and he's done the year's turnover.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote johnny h:

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Quote gary shaw12:

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It's rediculous isn't it, because £14,000 (what Russ Andrews is charging for 1 speaker cable) could actually buy you a very nice used Audi S4 saloon sports car.

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That's just so funny. Anyone stupid enough to pay £14,000 for a cable, frankly deserves to be charged £14,000 for a cable!

Surely nobody has ever actually bought this cable though. I bet the sales figures for all these ridiculous things are very, very low.

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But I do see magic speaker cables, magic equipment stands, the occasional magic power cable in domestic use. Not the real high-price stuff, but a hundred pounds here, a few hundred there. And I've seen LOTS of people who've fallen for the "interconnect" scam - often to connect basic consumer gear with rubbish speakers positioned carelessly.

Quote:

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Yes Dawkins is every bit as fanatical in his views on atheism as the religions he rants about

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Except that, er, no he isn't. Fanatical religions attempt to force their views on others by murder, rape, mutilation, banning contraception, forbidding science and learning, pushing creationism and other nonsense into our schools, and all the rest of their abhorrent medieval practices too numerous to mention. Dawkins writes books. Sometimes about the above. Let's get things in perspective here chaps!

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Agree. Neither does he rant. He reasons.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

... I don't think Hitler's had a mention yet...