... over their £1250 kettle lead by the ASA.

http://asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories -Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx

Turns out that a grand-plus bit of electric string, plug and socket _doesn't_ make your hifi sound much better after all. Who'da thunk..?



--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Dammit Dave, why couldn't you have posted one hour earlier?

I'd just payed out £2495 for a pair of those U-shaped metal thingies that go in the back of your hi-fi.

If only I'd known sooner about this charlatan.

Good stuff. More of the same please ASA!

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Someone else reads El Reg then? Yeah, this couldn't happen to a more deserving person.

Just read through all that ASA report and it seems very fair, particularly with regard to the lack of any common mode improvement, and the fact that the quoted measurements were done with 50 ohm source and load impedances, which in no way represents what you’d find in a typical mains supply and PSU.

It’s not quite that it doesn’t make your hi-fi sound better after all, but that no proof has yet been provided


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I think that if you buy expensive cables, there's a certain amount of perception improvement that your brain makes up.

However, I don't imagine for a second that it costs that much to make the cable, and while they may have spent a bit on development, they probably would make it back quicker selling more of them for less money...and probably wouldn't get slapped by the ASA as well.

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

There are also plenty of hand-plaited DIY designs out there that offer similar distributed capacitance to cancel out any differential more RD interference.

Not quite as slick-looking as a machine-plaited one, but probably nearly as effective.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

I wonder how many hi-fi journals who make a living reviewing this crap will print the story?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote:

---

It’s not quite that it doesn’t make your hi-fi sound better after all, but that no proof has yet been provided

---

I.E. the same reason that patent offices now ask for a working prototype when someone tries to patent a perpetual-motion machine...

The sad thing is it probably won't effect sales!

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

he doesn't sell anything - just to one or two suckers. So i wouldn't worry too much.

That's great but I want the dude who sells them room resonators under investigation even more hahah

I think it's only fair to point out that Russ Andrews was pulled up for one item. I have bought the occasional product from his company and yes they actually did make my Hi Fi sound better. And before anyone tells me, no it didn't just make it sound different. It was definitly better. Many of his products are well made to a high standard. The law of diminishing returns does kick in of course at some point and some people are crazy to pay the money for some of his very high end stuff. But I think it's important to be fair. It's not always snake oil.

... buuuuuuuut most of the time it is.

reading the ASA report brought a big smile to my face. made a rubbish day at the office a lot happier.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote David O' Connell:

---

I think it's only fair to point out that Russ Andrews was pulled up for one item. I have bought the occasional product from his company and yes they actually did make my Hi Fi sound better. And before anyone tells me, no it didn't just make it sound different. It was definitly better. Many of his products are well made to a high standard. The law of diminishing returns does kick in of course at some point and some people are crazy to pay the money for some of his very high end stuff. But I think it's important to be fair. It's not always snake oil.

---

So it was you that bought those green CD pens..


Paul

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Paul

Quote ~Paul:

---

[

So it was you that bought those green CD pens..


Paul

---

They were green actually. But thats beside the point. Hands up all those who have actually tried a mains lead or mains block or some other useful item and compared them to the bog standard ones. I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src=blog

Quote David O' Connell:

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I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src=blog

---

I probably shouldn't say this but I'm afraid that Andy Jackson has always seemed a little gullible as far as these tweaks are concerned. If I see that he's endorsed something then I know that it probably isn't worth buying.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote David O' Connell:

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They were green actually.

---

Umm, yes, thats what I said

Quote David O' Connell:

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Hands up all those who have actually tried a mains lead or mains block or some other useful item and compared them to the bog standard ones. I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.

---

In which case, by replacing your mains cable/s, you are not even doing half the job.. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, right? So chop chop and rip your entire house apart, replace all the wiring and junctions behind the wall and under the floors and fit a new gold plated fuse box while you are at it. Because if an IEC cable makes a difference, then so does all that other kit too. In fact, the 200 odd miles of high voltage supply cables going from your house/studio to various substations and the power station also make a difference. Perhaps Russ Andrews will go the whole hog and offer a quality upgrade solution for that too?

Back here on earth though.. I've been to some well respected musicians studios and big commercial studios here & there, and not one of them used any of that stuff. Not that I peered behind every rack mind. But im sure Id have noticed the comedy cables around the place if they were there..
As much as I like and respect Pink Floyd/Gilmour. And as much as im sure AJ is a great engineer, that article still reeks of absolute (sponsored) BS.

Paul

--------------------
Paul

I think most quality studios pay attention to their mains supply in some way. If you use bell wire for your mains it will affect things. I hold no brief for Russ Andrews especially but I think it's important to be fair. It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone. There are I'm sure plenty of cheap crap cables out there. Does that make the manufactures of the good ones suspect. Is monster cable crap because it claims basically what Russ Andrews claims that attention to detail in manufacture and components makes a difference. Russ Andrews is in the business of making money and I agree many of his products are over hyped to fool the gullible. But I still think that his original basic products are very good.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I wonder how many hi-fi journals who make a living reviewing this crap will print the story?

---

I'm so losing respect for journalists, not only those that write about audio and hi-fi, but in general. Politics, economics, film, art, music, even science... 80-90% of the stuff published today is utter rubbish. Many journalists seem to do little more than copy/paste some nonsense they don't understand, but read someplace else.

A fellow musician, a double bass player, recently went back to the States to make some money. He writes articles on medical drugs for large pharmaceutical companies. He explained to me that he hasn't got a clue what he's writing about - he simply takes a few existing papers and articles and re-writes them. He said that it doesn't matter that he's no expert, but he got the job because he knows how to write. He said he gets paid handsomely.

Yes, I'm a fellow El Reg reader ...

This caused much merriment at work especially with those of us that have recently bought hdmi leads... supposedly and independent study has now shown that there is no difference between the expensive (many hundreds of pounds - really) and the 99p versions....

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote David O' Connell:

---

I think most quality studios pay attention to their mains supply in some way. If you use bell wire for your mains it will affect things. I hold no brief for Russ Andrews especially but I think it's important to be fair. It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone. There are I'm sure plenty of cheap crap cables out there. Does that make the manufactures of the good ones suspect. Is monster cable crap because it claims basically what Russ Andrews claims that attention to detail in manufacture and components makes a difference. Russ Andrews is in the business of making money and I agree many of his products are over hyped to fool the gullible. But I still think that his original basic products are very good.

---

Attention to detail is one thin g- but attention detail doesn't cost that much. And yes - there is NO difference between a £10 IEC cable and ANY other more expensive type.

Cheap cable crap out because of bad connects or very low quality materials. You don't need to spend a lot to get excellent top drawer quality in connectors or cables. My speakers cables are quite pricey - but not the stupid monies that that darn website offers!! hoho

Quote David O' Connell:

---

I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src=blog

---

I've had an album mastered at Andy Jackson's place. I've also had one done at Abbey Road.

Both do a good job.

There's no evidence whatsoever (in my mind) that a shedload of solid silver Kimber cables and Russ Andrews kettle leads contributed one iota to the finished product or made it in any way "better" than the Abbey Road offering.

I did gently raise the snake oil conversation with Andy who swears that in an A-B comparison at Dave Gilmour's studio he was personally convinced that there was an audible difference. But I'm not sure there's ever been an album made, by anybody, where any such difference is not going to be completely buried by all the other compromises.

In short, Abbey Road is "good enough" for 99.9999% of mortals. If I had £5 million to spend, I'd still spend it on upgrading everything else first, before I considered buying a single Russ Andrews product.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote David O' Connell:

---

I think most quality studios pay attention to their mains supply in some way. If you use bell wire for your mains it will affect things. I hold no brief for Russ Andrews especially but I think it's important to be fair. It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone. There are I'm sure plenty of cheap crap cables out there. Does that make the manufactures of the good ones suspect. Is monster cable crap because it claims basically what Russ Andrews claims that attention to detail in manufacture and components makes a difference. Russ Andrews is in the business of making money and I agree many of his products are over hyped to fool the gullible. But I still think that his original basic products are very good.

---

1. Nobody uses bell wire as a mains lead.

2. Monster is every bit as guilty of selling snake oil.

3. Anybody who sells speaker cable with directional arrows on it is a charlatan.

4. I have tested various types of mains conditioners, inc. the RA 'Sniffer' for a general article for another magazine and they made things marginally worse for some types of budget equipment, as they interfere with the earthing. Non of these boxes improve good equipment with adequate PSUs with a good and solid earth connection.

5. The Gilmour article reflects a common phenomenon - people have raggle-taggle installations with poor earthing. Along comes a snake oiler and offers them cable with magic Spong-Connectors. In installing this crap, they sort out the earthing and hey-presto! Noise levels improve, as if by magic!

6. We are far from agreed that "good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone" - as long as the cable is up to the task of allowing what goes in at one end to come out of the other, it is OK. Cable is totally passive and buying magic cable is, to quote Shakespeare, 'fool's errand.'

7. There used to be a great deal of sub-standard cable knocking about and being sold as suitable for professional audio, this was up to the 80s and is just no longer the case. Companies like Klotz, Bespeco and a whole host of others, sell good quality cable in 100m rolls at low prices and these perform every bit as well as the esoteric nonsense cables.

8. All these cables will deal with frequencies up to RF and nearly all hi-fis cap their ins and outs and internal connections at 20kHz anyway. Also, nearly all microphones do the same - a fact that the hi-fi buffs who twitch over 96kHz systems conveniently forget!

Quote:

---

they sort out the earthing and hey-presto! Noise levels improve, as if by magic!

---

That was my problem with the linked article too. It's not an A-B comparison. And the engineering decisions made are pretty dodgy too. Like those magic mains filters - anyone halfway competent at things electrical would say b*ll*cks to that and install a double-conversion sine-wave UPS in a cupboard somewhere instead.

Quote Dave B:

---

Yes, I'm a fellow El Reg reader ...

This caused much merriment at work especially with those of us that have recently bought hdmi leads... supposedly and independent study has now shown that there is no difference between the expensive (many hundreds of pounds - really) and the 99p versions....

---

Yep, bought 4 really good shielded DHMI cables from Amazon at £2.30 each. Work perfectly.

I went to the Sony Centre to check out the new B3E 40 " jobbie and the manager there did a Russ on me (BTW, this is now designated as a new word) and tried to convince me that the £24.99 HDMI cables he had did a better job. I asked him to eplain the physics to me; he couldn't. I asked him to show me using a cheaper comparable; he couldn't.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

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I went to the Sony Centre to check out the new B3E 40 " jobbie and the manager there did a Russ on me (BTW, this is now designated as a new word)...

---

It's an excellent word. As with so many slang nouns, you could make it a verb as well, eg. "I only went into PC World for a cheap power supply, but the spod in there was russing with me something bad".

Yeah, I like that one.

Ok, so it's confirmed then.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

I agree completely with the Bladder on these points:

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

1. Nobody uses bell wire as a mains lead.

2. Monster is every bit as guilty of selling snake oil.

3. Anybody who sells speaker cable with directional arrows on it is a charlatan.

4. I have tested various types of mains conditioners, inc. the RA 'Sniffer' for a general article for another magazine and they made things marginally worse for some types of budget equipment, as they interfere with the earthing. Non of these boxes improve good equipment with adequate PSUs with a good and solid earth connection.

5. The Gilmour article reflects a common phenomenon - people have raggle-taggle installations with poor earthing. Along comes a snake oiler and offers them cable with magic Spong-Connectors. In installing this crap, they sort out the earthing and hey-presto! Noise levels improve, as if by magic!

6. We are far from agreed that "good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone" - as long as the cable is up to the task of allowing what goes in at one end to come out of the other, it is OK. Cable is totally passive and buying magic cable is, to quote Shakespeare, 'fool's errand.'

7. There used to be a great deal of sub-standard cable knocking about and being sold as suitable for professional audio, this was up to the 80s and is just no longer the case. Companies like Klotz, Bespeco and a whole host of others, sell good quality cable in 100m rolls at low prices and these perform every bit as well as the esoteric nonsense cables.

8. All these cables will deal with frequencies up to RF and nearly all hi-fis cap their ins and outs and internal connections at 20kHz anyway. Also, nearly all microphones do the same - a fact that the hi-fi buffs who twitch over 96kHz systems conveniently forget!

---

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote David O' Connell:

---

It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone.

---

Not really. We agree that a faulty cable is a bad thing. That certain circumstances justify heavy-duty connectors and extra shielding, in others it would just be expensive over-kill.

Well put bladder.

If someone thinks these cables have merit, then you need to learn some basic electronics. Progress through the stages of building an AC to DC power supply- bridge rectifier, reservoir capacitor, voltage regulator etc. and you will quickly see that this talk of electricity affecting the sound is nonsense.

You could also set up a test by recording the output of your CD player with and without the fancy mains cable, then doing a blind AB on the two recordings.

But we already know the outcome

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

maybe it's just one of those cases like A Few Good Men, where Tom Cruise needs his Bat to think properly, maybe that's what those cables do for Andy and others... if they truly think they hear a difference then i guess whatever works... i know for me and cables, the noticeable difference in price seems to come down largely to build quality, if there is a difference i sure can't hear it, but then my set-up probably has a few weak links so it probably wouldn't matter, and even then i figure with such a digital set-up any little grunge alone the way can't be a bad thing...

to relate it to golf, and i bring that up cause to me music and golf are so different yet so amazingly similar, impossible to master and a deep journey into self exploration and life... anyhoo i have to have 3 tees in my right pocket and mark my ball with a certain coin, i hate to see laces flopping around and my shirt has to be tucked in with all my clubs with their own specific section within the bag and the identical pre-shot routine and style etc. etc. now none of this has any real and tangible effect on anything, but i always play worse when something is out of place and vice-versa... be it superstition or some spiritual energy thing or simply mental midgetness, but never the less it has a real effect on the outcome... for those that adamantly believe they hear a difference you will probably have am easier time stealing cake from a fat kid and maybe they churn out better work with those cables in an almost self justification sort of way for believing it, as subconsciously i am sure their subconscious knows it's largely hogwash...

as i was saying, people just can't help themselves, and i am guilty just as much as the next person, usually with health food store mumbo jumbo and i know it every-time. it could be that when you are so desperately looking for an answer or solution or cure or to make something better you will begin to give anything a shot AND actually start believing it and that is when these sorts of things happen..

on another note the Zodiacs apparently changed or something... amazingly my new one is equally as accurate as my old one but since i like my old one better i'll just stick with that...

it's largely a mind thing me thinks...

as you were

Looks like it me against the universe on this one. But all I can finally add is that I did hear a difference. Guess I better get my ears checked. It would be nice though if someone did a really well controlled test just to put sad deluded people like me back in the box. Might do my own someday as I have as you have all probably guessed by now been been duped,scammed fooled etc. into parting with money for Russ Andrews cables(sigh)

I think my issue is that all that stuff takes the law of diminishing returns to the extreme...so extreme in fact that anyone who thinks the extra £10000 for 0.0000001% increase in quality deserves everything they get.If in fact there is any improvement.Dave

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My head hurts!

i think sos should get some of these magic wires and put it to the test once and for all and publish the results.

i listened to some, then wrote to them querying their claims.


then called them


apparently, and i quote, "we find customers with a technical background have a harder time hearing the improvement.... "



nuff said.

Its just aural homeopathy.

There are too many unregulated businesses out there.

Its up for people to make informed choices. Russ Andrews gear is expensive so you'd need to really think about the improvements. Either that or you are filthy rich and you don't care as long as it is expensive.

As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?

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I'm All Ears.

Quote ken long:

---

As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?

---

How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?

Quote Exalted Wombat:

---

Quote ken long:

---

As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?

---

How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?

---

I'd give them more than I give this present government, for example...

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

Quote idris y draig:

---

"we find customers with a technical background have a harder time hearing the improvement.... "

---

You've got to admire the skills in coming up with a reply like that.
Whoever he/she was should get a job in a government spin department.

Quote David O' Connell:

---

It would be nice though if someone did a really well controlled test

---

We could do that! I've done such tests with external wordclocks and Vovox mic cable. Can you guess the results?

There are a lot of variables here. Firstly, to ensure that you really can hear a difference, you have to be able to switch between the two things in less than about 10 seconds because our auditory memory is short. That's a fact. Check out "This is your Brain on Music" for that and other startling stuff.

Secondly, it has to be a blind test. Otherwise, if you know you're hearing the one you paid cash for, then you will very likely prefer it. Conversely, if you're a sceptic, you will want that one to sound worse!

With power supply stuff, it could well be that there is an earthing issue. A simple ground loop can mean that you will definitely hear a difference caused by cable and connector impedance. More impedance will raise the noise caused by the loop. So putting in fancy cables will lower that noise. Of course, there are cheaper ways to achieve the same result!

Less likely is that the rectifier circuitry is poor or faulty.

So most of the time your ears can be dead right, but there are other variables at play.

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

[How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?

---

I'd give them more than I give this present government, for example...

---

Out of interest, is there ANY era since you became politically aware in which you wouldn't have used that line? :-)

I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.

I've sat in on countless expertly presented comparisons at trade shows and in private demos and been utterly convinced that cable x sounded significantly 'better' than the 'standard' cables. Yet when I compared the cable X at home with my own gear I've not experienced the same benefits at all... and in some cases the cable X was definitely worse in some clear, repeatable and measureable way!

It seems to me that most if not all of these kinds of demos are flawed because of the way we can be fooled and biased so ridiculously simply.

And where there are perceived and repeatable benefits my experience is that it is always in cases where the equipment is substandard in some way because of poor or cost-limited designs.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

I agree completely with the Bladder

---

This is a dangerous development and one that must be countered at all costs. I can only put it down to Hugh's recent bout of ill health, which must have lead to some sort of mental aberration or feebleness, similar to that experienced, when one drops a baby on its head.

In view of this, I can only hope that you will be better soon and able to disagree with me on all points!
______________________________________________________

As for the AB comparison or test, this has been done several times by all sorts of people and the results are always the same - either noise levels increase very, very slightly (you really need a good oscilloscope or, better still, an Audio Precision test rig to do this) or nothing happens, depending on the type of equipment being powered. Most of the time, there is no difference.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

---

Quote ken long:

---

As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?

---

How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?

---

... about 300mm to go round the neck and another 600 to reach the nearest joist

Sorry, guys. I tried to keep out of this really I did, even switched the computer off for a while.

I know there's no cure for gullibility but it really, really annoys me when I see, or hear of people being taken to the cleaners like this.

P.S.
On a related note, elswhere on here I posted a link to a guy who did some real A/B testing on domestic speaker cables as well as instrument measurements and calculations. His conclusion? Use 4mm Mains cable.

Edited by Folderol (15/01/11 04:18 PM)

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.

I've sat in on countless expertly presented comparisons at trade shows and in private demos and been utterly convinced that cable x sounded significantly 'better' than the 'standard' cables. Yet when I compared the cable X at home with my own gear I've not experienced the same benefits at all... and in some cases the cable X was definitely worse in some clear, repeatable and measureable way!

It seems to me that most if not all of these kinds of demos are flawed because of the way we can be fooled and biased so ridiculously simply.

And where there are perceived and repeatable benefits my experience is that it is always in cases where the equipment is substandard in some way because of poor or cost-limited designs.

hugh

---

Would it lose SOS a LOT of advertising if it ran a feature debunking the whole Magic Cables thing? I was impressed with the recent comparison of Master Clocks which, after testing various expensive bits of gear, was brave enough to end with "but you almost certainly don't need one!"

Quote Kwackman:

---

Quote idris y draig:

---

"we find customers with a technical background have a harder time hearing the improvement.... "

---

You've got to admire the skills in coming up with a reply like that.
Whoever he/she was should get a job in a government spin department.

---

"these more technically minded listeners are typically the "left side of the brain" people; less aesthetically minded and therefore unable to discern the benefits the FraudCord® kettle-lead offers, and more likely to blindly trust science."

I met dear old Russ this year at the Bristol hifi show
He was demming SooLoos a very expensive hard drive juke box(£7k ish)
I asked him how it was different from ITunes which is free and runs on any computer
He hadn't heard of Tunes running on a computer just on IPods and seemed quite mystified at my suggestion and impudence.
I think he lives in a land once carved from nature by Ivor Teifenbrun , a flat earth, middle kingdom for dwarves and unicorns.

--------------------
I am the Walrus.

Quote:

---

I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.

---

print it then, that's the point there ain't any difference and that shop should be shut down asap.

whilst i entirely agree in principle....., on that same basis, virtually every hifi shop on earth should be similarly terminated.....


which might be a little harsh.

actually, scratch that..... it would seem you have a point, and that the logical result is probably a very good idea.....

Quote necromunger:

---

Quote:

---

I've looked at doing specialist cable reviews and comparisons on several occasions before but never found anything reliably provable.

---

print it then, that's the point there ain't any difference and that shop should be shut down asap.

---

It would make no difference. Even if it could be reliably proved cable "A" doesn"t sound any different from cable "B", do you really think the hi-fi market would change? Do you think the kind of person who spends a 4 figure sum on his interconnects is going to worry about some test in a magazine he's probably never heard off?
Marketing BS rules the world, science ain't going to change that.

To be honest, the worst thing Russ Andrews is doing is taking money of rich people, or if you wanted to be cruel, rich people with little sense.

--------------------
Cubase, guitars.

Quote Kwackman:

---

It would make no difference. Even if it could be reliably proved cable "A" doesn"t sound any different from cable "B", do you really think the hi-fi market would change? Do you think the kind of person who spends a 4 figure sum on his interconnects is going to worry about some test in a magazine he's probably never heard off?
Marketing BS rules the world, science ain't going to change that.

To be honest, the worst thing Russ Andrews is doing is taking money of rich people, or if you wanted to be cruel, rich people with little sense.

---

I'm more sorry for the punter in Currys who, after buying a £30 DVD player gets conned into adding a £50 SCART cable. I recently accompanied a friend shopping for a new TV. While negotiating the deal, we suggested to the salesman he might throw in a SCART cable. He refused until we made it clear we weren't interested in the one half-way down THIS page, but would be perfectly happy with one from HERE . We got it.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Would it lose SOS a LOT of advertising if it ran a feature debunking the whole Magic Cables thing?

---

We don't get a significant amount of advertising for this kind of product, and I think we all debunk the magic cables thing as we go along generally -- especially at trade show Q&A sessions and in the forums.

The problem with trying to debunk in the magazine is that no matter how carefully it is done, there will follow a tirade of companies being critical about the process, or saying, yes, but our product is different and you now have to review it...

Quote:

---

I was impressed with the recent comparison of Master Clocks which, after testing various expensive bits of gear, was brave enough to end with "but you almost certainly don't need one!"

---

Yes... and I refer you back to my previous statement

Audio, speaker and power cables (and their connectors) need to be adequate for the intended purpose: no more and no less. Buying from the catalogues of reputable professional wholesale suppliers usually ensures sensible cost-effective purchases.

Inadequate cables will obviously degrade the system performance to some extent and may result in audible differences. In some conditions those differences may even be perceived as 'better'... But if you are using adequate cables and hear a difference it will be because something in the system is inadquate. It may be a feeble power supply, or one with inadequate ffiltering; it may be an unstable output driver or line receiver, or one susceptible to external interference; or it may be poor grounding inside or around the system.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Seems SOS might be in a position to actually make a difference then!

Make that statement in the mag, maybe in an editorial. Let the complaints from Monster et al. come in. Do the tests. Maybe we're all wrong, premium "interconnects" DO sound better. Those oxygen molecules DO impede the music. SOS carries no audiophile baggage, we'll get a straight answer.

If we're lucky the issue might even catch the public imagination (like the Autotune stunt last year). National exposure for SOS, lots of new readers!

While it's always good to debunk this 21st century arcana (and have a good laugh in the process), I think I'd rather SOS spent time and resources reviewing things other than something its readers (seem to, unanimously) dismiss as nonsense.

Absolutely. It's always more benficial to review things that our readers are likely to buy and appreciate, rather than products which are complete no-hopers.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Absolutely. It's always more benficial to review things that our readers are likely to buy and appreciate, rather than products which are complete no-hopers.

hugh

---

There is always the danger that people may think such an article is a mis-timed April fool



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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Seems SOS might be in a position to actually make a difference then!

Make that statement in the mag, maybe in an editorial. Let the complaints from Monster et al. come in. Do the tests. Maybe we're all wrong, premium "interconnects" DO sound better. Those oxygen molecules DO impede the music. SOS carries no audiophile baggage, we'll get a straight answer.

If we're lucky the issue might even catch the public imagination (like the Autotune stunt last year). National exposure for SOS, lots of new readers!

---

These expensive cables carry a placebo effect and snob value. In a way its no different from designer clothes - do they make you a better person? Yes if you believe it, and you'll be more confident and positive as a result. No if you are cynical and bitter and believe you've been ripped off.

So yes the science is quite laughable, but its no different from cosmetic ads which feature false eyelashes and camera trickery. Its there purely to make the buyer feel good about their purchase.

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary. They've even run articles about cheap home speakers and concluded they aren't quite so unsuitable for mixing as the popular monitor manufacturers claim. They don't need to insult their audience's intelligence by using long, scientific tests to disprove the claims of some audiophile nutters. A casual dismissal will suffice.

Quote johnny h:

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Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Seems SOS might be in a position to actually make a difference then!

Make that statement in the mag, maybe in an editorial. Let the complaints from Monster et al. come in. Do the tests. Maybe we're all wrong, premium "interconnects" DO sound better. Those oxygen molecules DO impede the music. SOS carries no audiophile baggage, we'll get a straight answer.

If we're lucky the issue might even catch the public imagination (like the Autotune stunt last year). National exposure for SOS, lots of new readers!

---

These expensive cables carry a placebo effect and snob value. In a way its no different from designer clothes - do they make you a better person? Yes if you believe it, and you'll be more confident and positive as a result. No if you are cynical and bitter and believe you've been ripped off.

So yes the science is quite laughable, but its no different from cosmetic ads which feature false eyelashes and camera trickery. Its there purely to make the buyer feel good about their purchase.

SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary. They've even run articles about cheap home speakers and concluded they aren't quite so unsuitable for mixing as the popular monitor manufacturers claim. They don't need to insult their audience's intelligence by using long, scientific tests to disprove the claims of some audiophile nutters. A casual dismissal will suffice.

---

Yes but, allegedly:

Really
Useless
Suspect
Science

Always
Needs
Direct
Responses
Every
Week

or

Almost
Never
Delivers
Results
Expected
Whatever

Or

Always
Nicks
Dire
Revenue from
Every
Wallet

or...

Reg

Quote johnny h:

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SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.

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Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote johnny h:

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SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.

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Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.

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I seem to remember one of the last two Studio SoS articles showing some cheap cables being modified cheaply to provide a cheap but improved wiring solution for an inexpensive desk.

Reg

Quote RegressiveRock:

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Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote johnny h:

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SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.

---

Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.

---

I seem to remember one of the last two Studio SoS articles showing some cheap cables being modified cheaply to provide a cheap but improved wiring solution for an inexpensive desk.

Reg

---

Great! Just remind us which one, and confirm the point that more expensive cables would have been no improvement was clearly made - then my crusade is over!

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Absolutely. It's always more benficial to review things that our readers are likely to buy and appreciate, rather than products which are complete no-hopers.

hugh

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OT and slightly facetious - but can we assume then that products that SOS does NOT review must be no hopers?

What fascinates me about stuff like this is whether the vendor (Mr A in this case) actually believes in the benefits himself (albeit in a self-deluded manner) or is simply a hard-nosed scammer happy to part the fool from his money?

I've met a couple of people who sell alternative therapy treatments, for example, and they were very genuine people who absolutely believed that the rubbish they spouted was true. The healing power of crystals, was one, for example. And although they only charged £20 for a session, rather than a grand for a mains lead, the principle is broadly the same.

--------------------
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.

---

I can't tell you definitively the last time it was said, but it is said frequently. A very quick search of the archives produces these examples:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan02/articles/faq0102.asp

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov01/articles/qa1101.asp#Anchor-42983

I'm sure it's come up in Q&As much more recently too... but were you to phrase a suitable question here that might well find it's way into the next issue and your need to 'push' for further reinforcement would be satiated!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote steve355:

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OT and slightly facetious - but can we assume then that products that SOS does NOT review must be no hopers?

---

I think that's a bit of a jump too far -- the magazine has a limited amount of space so not every product can be reviewed, and I'm sure there are excellent products out there we haven't reviewed. But personally, I would only consider buying products that are reviewed where possible!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

several companies over the years have learned to their cost, that if they send iffy stuff for review.... it WILL get an unbiased review stating it's crap..... politely, but firmly.... and that these reviews DO get printed..... as a result, no one sends them anything that they know has very much in the way of crappiness.... suspect performance, or dodgy science.....

Quote Huge Longjohns:

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What fascinates me about stuff like this is whether the vendor (Mr A in this case) actually believes in the benefits himself (albeit in a self-deluded manner) or is simply a hard-nosed scammer happy to part the fool from his money?

I've met a couple of people who sell alternative therapy treatments, for example, and they were very genuine people who absolutely believed that the rubbish they spouted was true. The healing power of crystals, was one, for example. And although they only charged £20 for a session, rather than a grand for a mains lead, the principle is broadly the same.

---

There's a lot of it around. I've recently run up against "Reiki" - basically Laying On Of Hands plus a pyramid scheme for buying levels of training. You wouldn't want to ban all unproved alternative medicine, placebos are, after all, relatively cheap. But I think there's some scamming going on here. Another friend's life has become dominated by SGI Buddhism. Harmless enough at first sight - but she seems to be writing a lot of cheques. I'm slightly surprised the current mania for cotton-wool Health & Safety hasn't extended to protecting innocents from such as these.

Quote:

---

There's a lot of it around. I've recently run up against "Reiki" - basically Laying On Of Hands plus a pyramid scheme for buying levels of training. You wouldn't want to ban all unproved alternative medicine, placebos are, after all, relatively cheap. But I think there's some scamming going on here. Another friend's life has become dominated by SGI Buddhism. Harmless enough at first sight - but she seems to be writing a lot of cheques. I'm slightly surprised the current mania for cotton-wool Health & Safety hasn't extended to protecting innocents from such as these.

---

This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.

Alternative therapies do work. I had a rather major illness that traditional medicine (At the time) didn't even want to admit exists, and alternative therapies did help me get through it.

My mother was given 1 year to live when diagnosed with cancer, and only 10 years, and a LOT of alternative therapy, later did she finally succumb.

Now back to regular programming.

On the case of cables, a well made cable will last longer and so spending a bit on them, especially when touring. So if you are unable to make them yourself it is a good idea. There is a point where you're spending more than you get the benefit of a well made cable, but that doesn't mean the slightly more expensive ones are not worth the little bit extra.

In the case of the £30 cable for a £50 DVD player, that's clearly a stupid suggestion. However, free cheap scart cables do fall apart and break, where as slightly better made ones tend not to.

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Edited by Exavior Music (17/01/11 09:38 PM)

Quote Exavior Music:

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This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.

---

When something works, you don't need a personal opinion. No-one has an opinion about asprin stopping a headache. Placebos require an opinion. Religious faith can, indeed, be a very strong opinion. But when you set science to measuring intangibles, you can get just about any result you WANT to get! There's THIS. But then there's THIS . And THIS . And that's only from a few moments on Google.

Quote:

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the case of the £30 cable for a £50 DVD player

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It was even sillier than that! Other way around.

Quote Exavior Music:

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This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.

---

Yes it is (off topic) although there are parallels. Funnily enough the Russ Andrews ruling got an honourable mention in a discussion on homeopathy at the Richard Dawkins site the other day. Some so-called alternative therapies work, e.g. Chinese medicine, osteopathy. Most are complete rubbish. There's an old saying: what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

A recent study by Melbourne University found that in two thirds of cases alternative remedies harmed kids (in several cases killing them) because the so-called "placebo effect" operated on the parents to the extent that they chose not to use mainstream medicine.

This is peer-reviewed, published science, not "opinion".

As for prayer, I'd rather not digress even further off topic but suggest you check out some of the peer-reviewed literature. A double blind trial found it could even be harmful. I'll concede this study shows prayer can help some people to deal with harmful emotions, but if you believe in a god, that's self-fulfilling. It's a sociological survey based on questionnaires in a country where 80% of the population are religious, not a double blind trial. Ask a bunch of atheists whether they find prayer beneficial. Meditation or anger management courses are generally beneficial too.

Like many others, Russ Andrews is (possibly unknowingly) playing with people's convictions that they want something to be right: otherwise they have to admit their foolishness in paying out a lot of money in the first place. Their probably compromised self-esteem won't permit that.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote RegressiveRock:

---

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote johnny h:

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SOS never hides the fact that expensive cables are unnecessary.

---

Quote me the last time this point was made in print, and I'll stop pushing for it to be reinforced, at least in an editorial if not a full feature.

---

I seem to remember one of the last two Studio SoS articles showing some cheap cables being modified cheaply to provide a cheap but improved wiring solution for an inexpensive desk.

Reg

---

Great! Just remind us which one, and confirm the point that more expensive cables would have been no improvement was clearly made - then my crusade is over!

---

Do I need to dust it with icing sugar and put a cherry on top as well?

Reg

Quote Steve Hill:

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Some so-called alternative therapies work, e.g. Chinese medicine, osteopathy.

---

I used (he's retired now) a therapist who labelled himself "osteopath". He got excellent results. Our sessions generally started with massage. Then ultrasound, maybe then the electric pads. If the problem was back or neck pain he might do the classic osteopaths yank, leading to the "click". But not always. He was very good at all this, we got excellent results. And 90% of what he did was standard physiotherapy. (He dismissed "cranial osteopathy as quackery.)

Another anecdote. On a Pantomime season in the West Country I ran across a lady who offered "Sports Massage" at the local Sports Centre. She didn't care HOW I'd strained a shoulder, and set to work. Unlike my osteopath friend, this one didn't have the touch. And what she really WANTED to do was cure everything my manipulating my feet.

I know a very nice lady who is absolutely convinced of one form of "alternative" because her child, who the doctors had given up on, lived a further 6 months after having this treatment. How can you argue? I also know a lady who was anti-doctor and refused medical aid for her son. It was meningitis, he died.

Lots of anecdotes. If you offered a suffering CAT homeopathy instead of proper veterinary care the RSPCA would try to prosecute.

Quote Steve Hill:

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Quote Exavior Music:

---

This is getting very OT, but I have to say that it's a personal opinion that certain alternative therapies don't work. You can find scientific studies that show that prayer, for example, helps to aid the recovery and healing of surgery patients, and also studies that say it doesn't. At the moment the scientific studies come down overwhelmingly in favour of prayer working.

---

Yes it is (off topic) although there are parallels. Funnily enough the Russ Andrews ruling got an honourable mention in a discussion on homeopathy at the Richard Dawkins site the other day. Some so-called alternative therapies work, e.g. Chinese medicine, osteopathy. Most are complete rubbish. There's an old saying: what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

A recent study by Melbourne University found that in two thirds of cases alternative remedies harmed kids (in several cases killing them) because the so-called "placebo effect" operated on the parents to the extent that they chose not to use mainstream medicine.

This is peer-reviewed, published science, not "opinion".

---

A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

Can you imagine the advertising and PR blitz that would have followed a new drug which cuts the risk of cancer by 20%?

Unfortunately for them, the drug in question is aspirin, which you can buy for 1p a go at tescos. http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/12December/Pages/aspirin-and-cancer-risk.aspx< /a>]

Quote:

---

Like many others, Russ Andrews is (possibly unknowingly) playing with people's convictions that they want something to be right: otherwise they have to admit their foolishness in paying out a lot of money in the first place. Their probably compromised self-esteem won't permit that.

---

Well yes this is true. Personally if someone has spent an enormous amount of money on boutique hifi gear, gold connections and whatever, I'm just going to be happy that he's happy about it. Its not my duty to 'prove' to him that's he is a gullible fool who is deluding himself into believing in the emperor's new clothes.

Indeed there are many studies which have shown that hearing is extremely subjective and can be influenced by many factors, visual and psychological. If the whole experience is beneficial to the listener I think its better to just nod politely and let them enjoy it.

Quote johnny h:

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A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

---

If only it was that simple.

I recommend reading Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science".

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

This is all very OT, and my apologies to the mods.

However...

To get an idea whether or not all spiritual healing, laying on of hands and prayer are quackery, I'd suggest to read up on the life and work of Harry Edwards. Some of his former patients are probably still alive, too.

Quote Tomás Mulcahy:

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Quote johnny h:

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A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

---

If only it was that simple.

I recommend reading Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science".

---

And he has an excellent Bad Science web site too. Always makes for interesting reading.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

At the end of the day Russ Andrews made a claim that could not be independently substantiated. This does not have any direct relation to anything else, except for what we perceive may be other products similarly over-egging the benefits.

The example of microphone cables is not a fair comparison because it does not specify a particular cable to investigate. However, to expand that point to relevance any product whatsoever will have an variability of effectiveness depending on its quality - quality meaning whether it is good for the purpose or not (which is irrelevant of whether the item was designed intentionally to be good at that purpose).

Yet, whilst it can be expected that products will vary in quality, that says nothing about the price range within which the product goes from rubbish to good. I would hazard a guess that for microphone cables that range is from 10p/metre bad, to £1/metre good.

Yet to bring this back to the ruling, at least there would be an electronically measurable difference between the absolutely poor (10p/metre) and the near-as-dammit-good-as-your-gonna-get-from-shoving-electrons-through-a-conductor (£1/metre). Russ Andrew's claims were not measurable. End.

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http://www.myspace.com/the.seed

Quote johnny h:

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A lot of published 'science' is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

Can you imagine the advertising and PR blitz that would have followed a new drug which cuts the risk of cancer by 20%?

Unfortunately for them, the drug in question is aspirin, which you can buy for 1p a go at tescos. http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/12December/Pages/aspirin-and-cancer-risk.aspx< /a>

---

Its unfair to criticize science when the entire point of the peer-reviewed process is to mitigate for this. Science is the first field to have created such a system, created because it is well understood scientists are people first and can screw up just like anyone else.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/the.seed

Errrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm....

Zapperators

Really!?!?!?!?!

Reg

Quote johnny h:

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Can you imagine the advertising and PR blitz that would have followed a new drug which cuts the risk of cancer by 20%?

Unfortunately for them, the drug in question is aspirin, ...

---

I certainly remember it being headline news when the research turned that up. Ah, yes, the 'R' word ...

Chris

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote Steve Hill:

---

As for prayer, I'd rather not digress even further off topic but suggest you check out some of the peer-reviewed literature. A double blind trial found it could even be harmful. I'll concede this study shows prayer can help some people to deal with harmful emotions, but if you believe in a god, that's self-fulfilling. It's a sociological survey based on questionnaires in a country where 80% of the population are religious, not a double blind trial. Ask a bunch of atheists whether they find prayer beneficial. Meditation or anger management courses are generally beneficial too.

---

Here's a page of some peer-reviewed research on prayer

Documents both positive and negative results.

You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should. That proves it for me.

In the case of cables however, I'm all for not spending ridiculous amounts on them

--------------------
www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Quote Exavior Music:

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You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should. That proves it for me.

---

The paradox being - I don't know whether to congratulate, or commiserate at her reward being delayed by 10 years!

Quote Exavior Music:

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You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should.

---

You mean the science of statistics, right? And the average. Stats also tells us that there will always be stuff outside the normal distribution. It is surprisingly accurate! The problem is that all too human doctors sometimes forget what an average actually means. Medical science is far from godlike so does not require capitalisation (I know you meant it sarcastically).

Hans Rosling's BBC4 shows are very illuminating on the topic of stats.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote Exavior Music:

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You believe what you want to believe, and you can point to studies in this and that. At the end of the day, my mum lived 10 years more than Medical Science said she should. That proves it for me.

---

With all due respect for your beliefs, have you considered that prognoses such as this one sometimes turn out to be inaccurate? Just asking, as I would not have accepted that as "proof" of anything, certainly not something as specific as the power of prayer. But I do understand (as a non-religious person) that belief in prayer is a big part of faith, regardless of empirical evidence or proof.

Quote elfabyanos:

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Its unfair to criticize science when the entire point of the peer-reviewed process is to mitigate for this. Science is the first field to have created such a system, created because it is well understood scientists are people first and can screw up just like anyone else.

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It is never unfair to criticise science! Peer review is considered by the scientific community to be the most effective way of qualifying the research of others. It does not discount criticism from "non-scientists"!

Quote InactiveX:

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It is never unfair to criticise science! Peer review is considered by the scientific community to be the most effective way of qualifying the research of others. It does not discount criticism from "non-scientists"!

---

Well, it CAN be quite short with "I'm going to discount all the evidence because I believe something else"!

... now what was it this thread was about...?

To get back to somewhere near the topic. New Scientist (a superb mag and the only other one I subscribe to) shares our disdain for overpriced cables and drew my attention to this beauty. Ignore the fact that it's unbelievably overpriced, just read some of the reviews! As an example, here's the one at the top of the list of over 400:-

Quote:

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This connection isn't sound. If my calculations are correct, it should be sometime around 2007 for whomever is reading this. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES. Something... happens with them. Something came through, something from somewhere else. We were overrun in days, not many of us are left. WE LIVE UNDERGROUND! ONLY YOU CAN STOP IT NOW. SAVE US. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES.

---

CC

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote elfabyanos:

---

At the end of the day Russ Andrews made a claim that could not be independently substantiated. This does not have any direct relation to anything else, except for what we perceive may be other products similarly over-egging the benefits.

The example of microphone cables is not a fair comparison because it does not specify a particular cable to investigate. However, to expand that point to relevance any product whatsoever will have an variability of effectiveness depending on its quality - quality meaning whether it is good for the purpose or not (which is irrelevant of whether the item was designed intentionally to be good at that purpose).

Yet, whilst it can be expected that products will vary in quality, that says nothing about the price range within which the product goes from rubbish to good. I would hazard a guess that for microphone cables that range is from 10p/metre bad, to £1/metre good.

Yet to bring this back to the ruling, at least there would be an electronically measurable difference between the absolutely poor (10p/metre) and the near-as-dammit-good-as-your-gonna-get-from-shoving-electrons-through-a-conductor (£1/metre). Russ Andrew's claims were not measurable. End.

---

What ARE you rabbiting on about?

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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To get back to somewhere near the topic. New Scientist (a superb mag and the only other one I subscribe to) shares our disdain for overpriced cables and drew my attention to this beauty. Ignore the fact that it's unbelievably overpriced, just read some of the reviews! As an example, here's the one at the top of the list of over 400:-

Quote:

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This connection isn't sound. If my calculations are correct, it should be sometime around 2007 for whomever is reading this. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES. Something... happens with them. Something came through, something from somewhere else. We were overrun in days, not many of us are left. WE LIVE UNDERGROUND! ONLY YOU CAN STOP IT NOW. SAVE US. DO NOT USE THESE CABLES.

---

CC

---

genius!

--------------------
hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote:

---

It is never unfair to criticise science! Peer review is considered by the scientific community to be the most effective way of qualifying the research of others. It does not discount criticism from "non-scientists"!

---

Erm, yes it can be unfair to criticise science.

By all means criticise science if you've found contrary evidence to what the current scientific thinking says. That's the definition of proper science. But don't criticise science for reaching conclusions (based on evidence and reasoning) that are different to what your Holy Book Of Choice says. Or your drugs policy statement either.

Or at least, you can if you want. But when the scientists stand up and say "bugger off until you've learnt how to talk with the grown-ups", it's definitely unfair to throw a paddy and say "they're all against me! it's a conspiracy!"

Quote Steve Hill:

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Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

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He's right. But do you find that his relentless, chirpy populism gets annoying? Just as Dawkins goes ON and ON about religion when all he really has to say is "Yes, I agree it's hard to prove a negative. But there isn't a scrap of evidence."

Quote Steve Hill:

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Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

---

Ah fantastic! He writes well as always.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote Steve Hill:

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Needless to say, the estimable Ben Goldacre had Russ Andrews in his sights a few years ago.

---

He's right. But do you find that his relentless, chirpy populism gets annoying? Just as Dawkins goes ON and ON about religion when all he really has to say is "Yes, I agree it's hard to prove a negative. But there isn't a scrap of evidence."

---

Yes Dawkins is every bit as fanatical in his views on atheism as the religions he rants about. He's made a very good living out of it.

...on the other hand Newtonian Physics looked pretty damned good until 1905 when Einstein proposed the Special Theory of Relativity. Sir Isaac still works very well for most day-to-day tasks but it isn't the whole of the story. Perhaps the folks who can reliably discern differences in different colour cables just work closer to the speed-of-light than we mortals.

a.


Oh, as a general guideline I tend to find that in most "non-proven" cases, "I believe" can be best substituted with "I like the idea that" for greater clarity: this works for UFOs,religion and Hi Fi amongst others.



--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote Andi:

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Oh, as a general guideline I tend to find that in most "non-proven" cases, "I believe" can be best substituted with "I like the idea that" for greater clarity: this works for UFOs,religion and Hi Fi amongst others.

---

Quoted for truth!

Also any company selling something by using the word "Quantum" in the advertising is trying to gammon you (or their investors, or both), some of the hifi kookery are guilty of this.....

In fact, anyone who has not got a reasonably serious Physics/Math background who uses the word quantum is almost certainly blowing smoke, period.

Russ is bad, but by no means the worst, and there is actually a scary amount of "dubious" marketing associated with the prosumer (and to an extent) the professional studio audio kit game. Phrases like "warms up" (If you mean "has serious non linearities" just say so already), "Has a sparkly top end" (generally means "more top end then a long tailed cat in a rocking chair factory"), and such are just as common in professional circles as they are in HiFi.
If I had to pick out two areas that suffer from it massively in this game it would probably be Mic Preamps and Guitar cables.... We can all cite examples.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

And anything called "pro" isn't :-)

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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And anything called "pro" isn't :-)

---

Thought that was a given (with a very few exceptions)!

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

How can these companies get away with it? Here's a speaker cable that's just so shockingly priced I had to wip my eyes and pinch myself to see if I was dreaming :

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1&region= UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=3378&customer_id=PAA2092019611252XMYHLOFHJYUMEWJD

Don't knock it man. It's on discount....



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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

"Wizard's First Rule: people are stupid." Richard and Kahlan frowned even more. "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

My personal idea of this whole Russ Andrews thing is that the company bulsh*t and sell these nice looking cables in the hope that people believe their lies and spend their hard earned money on this crap, while Russ Andrews sit there in their office trying not to laugh at all the dumb idiots being fooled by them. That's what i'm pretty sure is going on. I wonder if they've ever sold any of those £14,201.10 speaker cables. It makes me laugh how the put .10 at the end, I mean 10p, but like Tesco say, "every littler helps". lol

I guess legally they're not doing anything wrong but morally they're thieves, cruel and selfish human beings taking advantage of people who don't know any better.

Quote gary shaw12:

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How can these companies get away with it? Here's a speaker cable that's just so shockingly priced I had to wip my eyes and pinch myself to see if I was dreaming :

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1&region= UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=3378&customer_id=PAA2092019611252XMYHLOFHJYUMEWJD

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Quote Taken from the Russ Andrews website:

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This item is out of stock but should be despatched in 2-3 weeks of ordering.

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Translation: even we do not want to tie up our working capital by holding a piece of wire that costs the same as a very usable family car in stock.

Reg

It's rediculous isn't it, because £14,000 (what Russ Andrews is charging for 1 speaker cable) could actually buy you a very nice used Audi S4 saloon sports car.

£14'000 for a speaker cable! The core must be made of 24k solid gold lol

Better off going to a Richer Sounds store for your cable.

I buy all mine from Van Damme, i've had an account with them since I had my recording studio, they're great cable, very decent shielding too, and that's about as much as I wanna pay.

My speaker cables are clipped from a drum of DIY store ‘cooker flex’!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote gary shaw12:

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I buy all mine from Van Damme,

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I buy much of mine from the electrical wholesaler in town. Two core heavy duty (1.5mm^2 16 Amp) cable. £0.75/metre

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Frankly this is just ridiculous. You don't need expensive components to make cables sound better.



As audio enthusiasts you should all know that sound travels better through the colour purple. Purple cables have adequate insulation but also allow sound to travel easier with less resistance due to the colour's wavelength.

As a side note, I've already worked out the best shade of purple and will sell you the perfect cables for just £500 per foot. (Just ignore the LYNXNET PJ1 written on the side)



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11011110110010101111 - 110000001111111111101110 - 101110101101
Hexadecimal binary coding anyone?