I don't quite notice anything different.

Have they changed yet?

--------------------
http://www.homerecordingstudio.ca
http://www.digitalsoundmagic.com

and what about those of us interested , and experienced , in a wide range of different subject matter?? well, OUR forum experience has just become a whole load simpler.... I might now actually answer more questions, since i don't have to go hunting for them.....

Quote zenguitar:

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I know it's small consolation, but the changes to the structure are as new to us on the mod team as they are to everyone else and we need to learn our way around too.

---

OK, so:

1. Mods are having problems.
+
2. Participants are having problems

=Everyone is having problems.

Obviously, the as yet unnamed problem has had a fix worse than the problem!

What was *the problem* that was crying out to be fixed?

Quote zenguitar:

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And a big thanks to Max! for getting here so early and starting that process.

---

For simply throwing everything in a "it's all in here, somewhere" place?

*This* was an organizational achievement?

Quote zenguitar:

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olderol, I've already picked up your concerns about lost sticky posts and raised it with the management. I've asked if it would be possible to run a scan to find them and bring them back to the top of the page where they belong.

---

Is there anything that was *not* overlooked?

Quote zenguitar:

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am someone who read every post in a number of the forums that have disappeared, so I am still struggling to find my feet as well.

---

Again, if you and everyone are "struggling to find [your] feet," this was no fix to a still unnamed problem.

Quote zenguitar:

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Similar discussions were taking place in a number of the old forums with some members involved in all of them, and others just seeing a small part. It was common for members to link to threads in other parts of the forum.

---

Wow! That means the organizational system was working and members saw the structure and included *links* in posts for reference.

I would view that participant behavior as the ultimate validation of a useful and understood organizational system!

Quote zenguitar:

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es, there will be a learning curve for all of us, but on balance I am sure we can find a way to make the new structure work better for us all.

---

*Why* should there be a learning curve at all? (Rhetorical question)

Answer: Because this forum has no organization.

*What* was the problem that prompted this ridiculous fix of removing all organization from these previously existing subject areas?

Whatever the problem was, removing all organization is not a fix!

Quote zenguitar:

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aybe we just need to think about how we use the subject line when starting new threads.

---

PLEASE NOTE: We are NOT having problems with subject lines!

We are having trouble with FINDING THE SUBJECTS!!!

Quote zenguitar:

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nd keep letting us know what you think.

---

OK.

Why weren't we asked what we think **before** this absurd "disorganization" was executed?

Now again, please, if only for curiosity:

What was the problem that needed fixing?

I'm still having trouble reverse engineering this huge problem that was fixed.

What might the problem have been that was solved by removing organization from the forum?

Just to show it's not universally disliked....
I quite like the new system.

--------------------
Cubase, guitars.

changes work for me, color schemes good... of course i've always been one to need constant change...

i do agree with the Exalted one regarding the bottom of the page though, it could use a today's active topics link...

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Quote zenguitar:

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The starting point for the re-organisation was that there were too many forums and there was a sense that new visitors to the site were uncertain where to post.

---

Talk about using a sledge hammer to crack a nut........

So because some people posted in the wrong fora, everyone now has to wade through a handful of general fora - has this really been thought through?

Bob

---

As you quoted me, the key word is AND. In other words, 'there were too many forums' AND 'there was a sense that new visitors to the site were uncertain where to post'

So, quite clearly we are not talking about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The changes have been thoroughly thought through, and the starting point for that was the view of the publishers that Recording & Production should be a broad forum encompassing all the techniques and disciplines from tracking, through mixing, to mastering. To have all the main topics of interest for SOS readers and forum visitors together in one place rather than having to search through several different forums.

Max's suggestion to use key words or phrases in the subject line is not a tacit admission that the re-organisation hasn't worked. I have raised the same subject in the mods forum for discussion, and I suggested it there. And the reason for that is that we have picked up from the posts that some members would miss the small communities and relationships that they had built in the merged forums. Using key phrases or words might help you find the threads you are interested in without having to read everything.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote Jeraldo:

---

Now again, please, if only for curiosity:

What was the problem that needed fixing?

I'm still having trouble reverse engineering this huge problem that was fixed.

What might the problem have been that was solved by removing organization from the forum?

---

I was writing my previous post while you were writing yours Jeraldo.

As you can see, it is not about solving a problem so nothing to reverse engineer. It is the decision of the publishers over the direction they wish to take the forums.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote zenguitar:

---

Quote Bob Bickerton:

---

Quote zenguitar:

---

The starting point for the re-organisation was that there were too many forums and there was a sense that new visitors to the site were uncertain where to post.

---

Talk about using a sledge hammer to crack a nut........

So because some people posted in the wrong fora, everyone now has to wade through a handful of general fora - has this really been thought through?

Bob

---

As you quoted me, the key word is AND. In other words, 'there were too many forums' AND 'there was a sense that new visitors to the site were uncertain where to post'

So, quite clearly we are not talking about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The changes have been thoroughly thought through, and the starting point for that was the view of the publishers that Recording & Production should be a broad forum encompassing all the techniques and disciplines from tracking, through mixing, to mastering. To have all the main topics of interest for SOS readers and forum visitors together in one place rather than having to search through several different forums.

Max's suggestion to use key words or phrases in the subject line is not a tacit admission that the re-organisation hasn't worked. I have raised the same subject in the mods forum for discussion, and I suggested it there. And the reason for that is that we have picked up from the posts that some members would miss the small communities and relationships that they had built in the merged forums. Using key phrases or words might help you find the threads you are interested in without having to read everything.

Andy

---

Some of us might be interested to know:

What was the huge and pressing problem that has now been fixed by this forum revision achievement?

And what exactly is it that has been achieved?

Quote zenguitar:

---

Quote Jeraldo:

---

Now again, please, if only for curiosity:

What was the problem that needed fixing?

I'm still having trouble reverse engineering this huge problem that was fixed.

What might the problem have been that was solved by removing organization from the forum?

---

I was writing my previous post while you were writing yours Jeraldo.

As you can see, it is not about solving a problem so nothing to reverse engineer. It is the decision of the publishers over the direction they wish to take the forums.

Andy

---

Ah! So it is either the "New broom" or the "Have to be seen to be doing something syndrome" by the suits.

The "real" staff have all my sympathy.

Dave.

Text still doesn't scale well in Safari. Beyond a certain font size, typed text disappears behind the grey border, to the left or right of the Reply Box. Advertising still overlaps with text at the top of the page. Meh.

The fact that the number of forum topics has been reduced seems to indicate that SOS' web presence is contracting, rather than expanding. I would have hoped for an increased number of topics that are better organized and easier to access. Getting rid of user reviews and microphone techniques is just bizarre.

What exactly do you mean by that, Dave?

The decision to change the forums has been one heavily discussed in great detail both at SOS Towers and simultaneously amongst the moderation team. Once we reached a consensus and made sure to modify plans to accommodate individual opinions, we then implemented the changes.

Each of the staff at SOS is 'real' in the sense that we were all involved in this process. Similarly, our moderating team who do a pretty fine job of taking care of things whilst we're busy trying to make a monthly mag(!) are no less 'real' in terms of their massive input and energy.

Just sayin'.

--------------------
SOS Web Editor, Support & Social Media
Friend SOS on Facebook | Follow SOS on Twitter

"What exactly do you mean by that, Dave?"

Well, you know those pillocks in suits that wander around Waitrose, Sainbury etc with a clipboard and walk past the tills pretending not to see the 6deep ques and squalling ankle biters?

SoS would be a uniquie organization IMHO if they did not have a few of those on the "top floor"...Think some one let the word "publishers" slip?

Dave (again, aka COB!)

Blimey, vintage gear's gone, mics & techniques likewise. Quite a disappointment on my first visit to the new forum.

I used to like this forum precisely because I could browse/post/read in a specific subject area without wading through masses of unrelated stuff. Maybe there were some things that put the uninitiated off, but it seems a little strange to have made everything harder to find.

I liked browsing in the above (RIP) sections to see what was being posted: I am unlikely to wade through pages of questions about Behringer compressors and the like to discover a discussion about the Ursa Major Space Station (whilst actually looking for info on a vintage valve amp).

I've been a subscriber for years and have always found the forum a brilliant resource and place for engaging (and usually informed) debate; I guess I'll be here a lot less often now...

If it ain't broke...

Quote ef37a:

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"What exactly do you mean by that, Dave?"

Well, you know those pillocks in suits that wander around Waitrose, Sainbury etc with a clipboard and walk past the tills pretending not to see the 6deep ques and squalling ankle biters?

SoS would be a uniquie organization IMHO if they did not have a few of those on the "top floor"...Think some one let the word "publishers" slip?

Dave (again, aka COB!)

---

I understand your point, but as I said in my post this is not what has happened here. I think when Andy said that the decision was the publishers', I think he means SOS as a whole, as that's what we do - publish our own magazine (and Smart Guides).

It wasn't the case that one or two guys in a suit in an executive position who didn't have a clue just randomly decided to change everything We're a very small organisation and actually I can't think of anyone who fits this description.

As I said, what actually happened was long discussions went on at SOS with a whole variety of staff, as well as with the moderating team. Every single person's input was considered, to the extent that we spent a long time waiting for various individuals' feedback before progressing to making decisions on things. It really has been a collaborative effort and not a 'from the top' kind of thing, although clearly it was someone from the top who initially decided we'd have a reshuffle in the first place

The whole process has been going on quite some time - my personal involvement has been to the tune of probably at least a month, and there may well have been other discussions prior to that that I was not included in.

I hope this helps to clarify things

--------------------
SOS Web Editor, Support & Social Media
Friend SOS on Facebook | Follow SOS on Twitter

Quote Jennifer Jones:

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As I said, what actually happened was long discussions went on at SOS with a whole variety of staff, as well as with the moderating team. Every single person's input was considered, to the extent that we spent a long time waiting for various individuals' feedback before progressing to making decisions on things. It really has been a collaborative effort and not a 'from the top' kind of thing, although clearly it was someone from the top who initially decided we'd have a reshuffle in the first place

---

Designed by committee?!

Erm...well ok Jennifer points taken, still does not answer those who ask for a reason (I am still of a mind that "they" did not need one other than w' waving).

Why are guitars amps "cosy communities" and not mics and pres? Maybe one of the non existant suits plays guitar?

How about this as a SUGGESTION not a threat..
All those in favour of the changes carry on.
All those against don't post from midnight tonight till midnight Sunday.

Dave.

Quote Jennifer Jones:

---

As I said, what actually happened was long discussions went on at SOS with a whole variety of staff, as well as with the moderating team. Every single person's input was considered, to the extent that we spent a long time waiting for various individuals' feedback before progressing to making decisions on things.

---

After which, I REALLY hope someone who knew what he was about considered all opinions, ignored most of them, and made some decisions! Otherwise you'd have got a classic "designed by committee" lash-up!

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote Jennifer Jones:

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As I said, what actually happened was long discussions went on at SOS with a whole variety of staff, as well as with the moderating team. Every single person's input was considered, to the extent that we spent a long time waiting for various individuals' feedback before progressing to making decisions on things.

---

After which, I REALLY hope someone who knew what he was about considered all opinions, ignored most of them, and made some decisions! Otherwise you'd have got a classic "designed by committee" lash-up!

---

Sound on Sound forum AKA The Camel!
(sorry, CNR!)
Dave.

The thing that really saddens me is that the different sections seemed to have different characters too. They were FUN to dip into.

There were only a few I actively contributed to - not only for interest reasons but also available time - but I had a quick look in the others occasionally to see what the 'neighbors' were up to.

That's all gone now. No atmosphere, and a major trawl to find the stuff I'm interested in. Not much fun there

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote Folderol:

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The thing that really saddens me is that the different sections seemed to have different characters too. They were FUN to dip into.

There were only a few I actively contributed to - not only for interest reasons but also available time - but I had a quick look in the others occasionally to see what the 'neighbors' were up to.

That's all gone now. No atmosphere, and a major trawl to find the stuff I'm interested in. Not much fun there

---

Quite agree.
Now for all the bubby-buddy noises from "da management" I cannot believe that some strong minded individual did not have the balls to say "this is all Blllx! The readers will have our tripes out!"

Be intersting to see what staff get "shuffled" in the coming months.

Dave (you might have gathered that I have worked for some rite bastards! But not in the last 3years IHTA!)

Dave.

Quote Folderol:

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The thing that really saddens me is that the different sections seemed to have different characters too. They were FUN to dip into.

---

Agreed! They were all *fun,* and it was fun to visit different places (forums), too.

Quote Folderol:

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There were only a few I actively contributed to - not only for interest reasons but also available time - but I had a quick look in the others occasionally to see what the 'neighbors' were up to.

---

Same here, loved to find the ones the *neighbors* in the forums closest to my interests-and loved to visit the "other countries," too.

Quote Folderol:

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That's all gone now. No atmosphere, and a major trawl to find the stuff I'm interested in. Not much fun there

---

*Atmosphere* Couldn't have said it any better. And atmosphere is probably the single greatest distinction of SOS forums vs every other similar forums the world over.

Atmosphere, fun, and neighbors have no place in this brutish reorganizational achievement.

In my work, I would be fired for walking in and creating a disorganized mess.

Quote Jeraldo:

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*Atmosphere* Couldn't have said it any better. And atmosphere is probably the single greatest distinction of SOS forums vs every other similar forums the world over.

Atmosphere, fun, and neighbors have no place in this brutish reorganizational achievement.

In my work, I would be fired for walking in and creating a disorganized mess.

---

It's not the atmosphere that gives it the distinction, it's the regular posters and it is the posters who create that atmosphere...

i browse all forums the same way, todays posts, and i can tell the differences simply by that disorganized method...

that being said i don't find it disorganized, yall just don't take to change well that's all, no biggie, just give it some time...

Post deleted by Jeraldo

Quote Jeraldo:

---

I was writing my previous post while you were writing yours Jeraldo.

As you can see, it is not about solving a problem so nothing to reverse engineer. It is the decision of the publishers over the direction they wish to take the forums.

Andy

---

Andy-If it's a fait accompli, then it's awfully hard to understand why comments are being solicited, or even why the little "pre-announcements" were made.


However:


FIrst, thank you for not taking my post(s) personally!

Secondly, thanks for responding to my post!

And thirdly-probably not your department- what were the publishers thinking?!

In a completely unrelated matter-but now it seems very much related:

I was just about to renew my electronic zine subscription for 2 years and add the printed magazine to that as well. But now I'm wondering what glorious plans are being made for the magazine. That's on hold for now.

Right! I am off to me pit.
I shall see you all again on Monday.

Dave.

I can no longer see the mastering forum, has it upped and orfed ?

Edit: Ok I can see it is now combined with this big forum, well no big troubles, I like this forum and enjoy being a member and look forward to continued audio related postings.

SafeandSound Mastering

--------------------
Mastering online mastering

Quote zenguitar:

---

Max's suggestion to use key words or phrases in the subject line is not a tacit admission that the re-organisation hasn't worked. I have raised the same subject in the mods forum for discussion, and I suggested it there. And the reason for that is that we have picked up from the posts that some members would miss the small communities and relationships that they had built in the merged forums. Using key phrases or words might help you find the threads you are interested in without having to read everything.

Andy

---

Sorry, this is completely unconvincing.

What I'm hearing is that because newcomers have had difficulty finding topics or understanding the forum structure, or that people are posting in the wrong areas, you think it will be simpler to lump everything into one place?

That's seriously not a solution! Come on, it's like saying I can't find anything in my filing cabinet, because a few people have misfiled a few things and some people can't read the folder headings - so I'll just throw the whole lot in a pile on the floor instead.

What I like about these fora is the fact that there are specialist areas you can subscribe to and have intelligent (sometimes) discussion with people, if you do away with those, and people walk away because the whole thing is dumbed down, then the quality of discussion will deteriorate, which will lead to more folk leaving, which would lead to the inevitable.................

And if there's issues with newbies or misfiles, then create better decriptors for each forum and have them at the head of the forum.

Even better, why not have a standard 'First Post' page for all fora, the first part of which is an option to select which forum you want to post in, along with a pop up description of that forum.

I'm still waiting for a rational reason why these changes have been made, I'm not a believer in conspiracy theories, but..............

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz

I'm sorry Bob, but whether you find it convincing or not, you have happily quoted a paragraph from my post when the remainder of my post you haven't quoted answers your question.

What you insist on hearing is that the restructuring is to solve the 'problem' that people are posting in the 'wrong areas'. But what we are saying is that SOS has decided after much thought and discussion that the direction of the forums should be to bring those related topics together under the broad banner of Recording & Production.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote Jeraldo:

---

Andy-If it's a fait accompli, then it's awfully hard to understand why comments are being solicited, or even why the little "pre-announcements" were made.

---

That's a fair comment Jeraldo. The honest answer is that whatever the broad changes are, we still want to make the forum as a whole work. The pre-announcements were to let people know that the forums would be unavailable during the re-organisation period, so if you couldn't get in you could be sure it was us, not your browser settings, user name, or password. Common decency. Soliciting comments is about picking up details that might have been missed, or were not possible to predict (such as handling the sticky threads from the merged forums). As a Mod Team we can learn from people's experiences and use that to help others through the changes.

Yes, this is version 3 of the SOS forums and this is the biggest change since we switched from Version 2 to Version 3. But if I can speak personally, what I would say is something I learned many years ago. When things change people often leap to decide whether it is better or worse, but in my experience things are rarely better or worse, just different. And to put that in context, I clicked on your user name in the same way that anyone can and looked at your last 200 posts Jeraldo. Well over 90% of your posts have been merged into Recording & Production, the main effect of the forum reorganisation is to bring all of your interests together so you can find them largely in one forum.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Maybe those of us who are subscribers and are unhappy with the changes should unsubscribe for a while in protest?

Quote zenguitar:

---

I'm sorry Bob, but whether you find it convincing or not, you have happily quoted a paragraph from my post when the remainder of my post you haven't quoted answers your question.

What you insist on hearing is that the restructuring is to solve the 'problem' that people are posting in the 'wrong areas'. But what we are saying is that SOS has decided after much thought and discussion that the direction of the forums should be to bring those related topics together under the broad banner of Recording & Production.

Andy

---

Apologies for not including all your paragraphs in my quote, but I was concentrating on the aspect of our discussion where on the one hand mods are saying a combined forum is good news for everyone whilst on the other they are saying we should tag posts in order to find topics within a larger forum - an absolute contradiction.

Of course change happens, no problems there, but I would expect change for the better. I'm well able to read the reasons given for the changes that have occurred, but if this is to be the best place for people interested in in-depth technical sound discussions in the world, and it has been, then I'd have thought a range of fora dealing with many different aspects of live sound, recording, etc would be preferable.

For me it's really mics and mic technique that I'll miss. Sure I visit the MRT forum too, but there's not the same sense of community there and I predict even less so now.

Being somewhat isolated geographically, it's the sense of community I treasure.........

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz

Perhaps we could have a poll in which we can all vote for or against the changes. It would be interesting to know whether those of us who are not happy with the changes represent a majority viewpoint or are just a noisy bunch of malcontents.

A poll please - I'd really like to know!

CC

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

At the risk of getting the "sucking-up" taunts that usually follow my comments on such matters, can we not keep a sense of proportion here?

It's a music technology forum! That's all!

FWIW there are aspects that I'm finding 'difficult', but, hey, I'll get used to it... It's still the best of this type of forum by a considerable margin.

... and a mention for Jennifer who's probably done most of the work in implementing the changes... the forums came back quicker than I was expecting with no tech glitches that I've found. Good work there J!

How does one delete membership? In My Account I can't see any way of doing this.

Quote Mike Stranks:

---

At the risk of getting the "sucking-up" taunts that usually follow my comments on such matters, can we not keep a sense of proportion here?

It's a music technology forum! That's all!

FWIW there are aspects that I'm finding 'difficult', but, hey, I'll get used to it... It's still the best of this type of forum by a considerable margin.

... and a mention for Jennifer who's probably done most of the work in implementing the changes... the forums came back quicker than I was expecting with no tech glitches that I've found. Good work there J!

---

Agreed.

The old forum wasn't perfect, the current one isn't, and the next one won't be either- but it's still my favourite.

I don't care what the reasons for changing the forums were (I don't pay to be here, so none of my business really) , it has happened and the world still spins!

People are already using them, and looking at the posts there are contributions from both new members and old ones.

--------------------
Cubase, guitars.

Quote Mike Stranks:

---

At the risk of getting the "sucking-up" taunts that usually follow my comments on such matters, can we not keep a sense of proportion here?

It's a music technology forum! That's all!

---

Yes but it was a good one and now I'm not so sure. I guess I'm particularly unlucky in that all but one of the forums I would visit have been merged or binned. So here I am with my morning coffee browsing SOS and ... well ... it's just not very interesting.

I mean take the mic section. I have no interest in mics so I'd never visit but I was really happy there was a bunch of people over on that side of the room grooving on their love for mics.

I think the "publishers" have made a massive gaffe and they should just admit it. I guess we'll see who is right in the next round of "stats" but I for one have no interest in posting into a massive forum (P&T) where posts disappear off the bottom of the page within a few hours. I think plenty of other people feel the same too.

But yeah it's only a music tech forum ... only a magazine ... only a reputation ... only some advertising revenue ... only a few peoples jobs Etc

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Good god! I post here as much as the next man so can be accused of not having a life...but really....this is a source of info and sharing experiences NOT the United Nations.Give this time folks! Dave

--------------------
My head hurts!

I guess the passion comes from the fact that this IS peoples life.

Music means so much for so many people. My name is Barry, I am a music addict.

--------------------
Mastering online mastering

We obviously fear change but this is going to take a lot of getting used to. So what if we only visited one niche forum and we might be missing out on a lot of content in other forums....surely that is our choice. Newspapers dont stick recipies and sports news on page two, just in case their readers miss out by not reading all the paper. As a regular viewer of the musis biz forum I'm now confronted by someone considering changing their broadband package, great news.

This is not good.

Rant over

It's just like with everything else, isn't it. Some companies like to tell you that, by cutting back services, the remaining ones are going to work out so much better for you. Think banks, trains and busses, or postal services.

I imagine a reduced number of forums is easier to supervise for the mods. If so, we're looking at an exercise in rationalization.