Quote Beat Poet:

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I can't believe I was still using a tape deck to record rehearsals as recently as 2008, the guys were like, "how do you get it on the computer?"

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Heh! The dynamic range of even non Dolbied dupes is an overkill in my rattletrap (but very reliable!) Proton.

Dave.

Well, I've got a Nakamichi Cassette Deck One that I had fixed about a year ago (a stray belt), in case I ever decided to use it again. I have, for about an hour or so. (I also have A Nak 480--broken belt, faulty left Peak meter--it sits on a shelf, waiting for my Lottery win and some interest to actually fix it.) I have quite a few tapes from back in the day, which I had fun putting together, but really--I'll never do that again. It's a whole lot easier to use a computer and a DAW if you're so inclined, and I've done it, and now have mix CDs--it's just as easy, of course, to make mixes and put them on an mp3 player.
Cassettes are a poor medium--there's no getting around this. Even using my Nak One (adjustable azimuth!), the second you put the tape into a Walkman or some such thing, the middling quality goes right out the window. Walkmans are nice-looking junk, period. I remember buying the slim-line Walkman, which wasn't much bigger than the cassette itself. I bought it because it looked cool. I remember thinking, "I'll bet this thing won't last too long." It didn't. Maybe nine months, and I took care of it.
I gotta ask--Why? Why bother? What's with the nostalgia for a crap medium that was the working definition for "planned obsolescence"? I don't have any problem at all with not putting a bunch of music I don't like on an mp3 player. Can't you just listen to what you want to listen to? No one forces you to put stuff on an mp3 player, and in the off chance they do, you can delete the stuff you don't want. No?
I realize a lot of younger people think it's cool or whatever to release stuff on cassette. I will do this, too, and I've got a first-rate deck to do it with. I know that cassette technology is exciting to some people, but really now . . . .

Nobody's going to argue with your points Tim, but this isn't about logic, it's about 'soul'!

The original post in the thread said:

Hey guys,

I miss playing tapes. I loved the experience of the whole thing much better that an ipod with 65 trillion tunes on it that I couldn't possibly listen too in 5 lifetimes.

Please, don't go on about how I don't want a cassette deck, I do.

I have the facility to record 24 bit masters of anything I want as do we all these days. But there was a time when it was nice to just stick a tape on and let it play away.

So im not loosing anything here. All my vinyl etc is already recorded very well. Thats not what I want a cassette deck for. I want a cassette deck to make collections of favorite tunes without having to go near a computer and also to be different.

At the end of the day music is about what stirs us - it's usually content, but it can sometimes be far more factors than that. When I think of some of the stuff I enjoy from the '50s and '60s the technical quality is appalling by today's standards - duff edits, distortion, unmatched level changes, clunky drop-ins etc etc etc.

The bottom-line is the total experience for the listener. That can be just as much about the medium as the message. I have some cassettes of stuff I recorded in the '70s... technically it's appalling, but it still brings a smile and makes me feel good because of the associations it all conjures up.

Thanks Mike,
It was not my intention to drag up all the arguments again!
Just to point up what looks like a very good tape deck from a leading manufacturer at a decent price to them as wants one.

But even so, Dolbied HX pro has GOT to be better than 128k MP3?

Dave.

I agree Dave.

I recently inherited (literally!) a JVC KD-D4 which is in very good nick and working perfectly. Testing it using some classical cassettes I still have about the place the sound is perfectly acceptable for casual listening. It's proving useful too as I try to help people who contact me with cherished recordings of loved-ones who now have no means of playing those recordings.

No reflection directly on Tim, but I think sometimes we all get too caught up in S/N ratios, self-noise etc etc and lose sight of what this is meant to be all about.... people enjoying their music in a way that suits them. I guess it's inevitable in a forum of this nature... the thing I note about Exalted Wombat's posts (other posters are available!) is that he constantly reminds us that it's ultimately about the music and not the technology. It can be irritating, but bottom-line - he's right!

But do I strive for excellence? Yes. Would I go back to the "good old days"? No.

Well everyone has their betes noir.

My two were clicks and spits, unavoidable from vinyl and wow. A good turntable should be ok for the latter but only the very best cassette machine could support a sustained piano note without me wincing. Smooth hiss I could live with to a degree. (I choose my car listening VERY carefully!)

I also have a good 100 or so TDK SA/ADs with various proms on them and other R3/R4 stuff from yonks ago...ONE day I shall get it all on hard drive!

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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I also have a good 100 or so TDK SA/ADs with various proms on them and other R3/R4 stuff from yonks ago...ONE day I shall get it all on hard drive!

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I just completed this process after several months of concerted effort. Not one cassette now lives with me - they're all on hard drive. It was lovely hearing them hit the bottom of the wheelie bin!

It means I'll actually listen to them now, rather than have them sitting attracting dust on a shelf!

Bloomin' good riddance!!!!!!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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Quote ef37a:

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I also have a good 100 or so TDK SA/ADs with various proms on them and other R3/R4 stuff from yonks ago...ONE day I shall get it all on hard drive!

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I just completed this process after several months of concerted effort. Not one cassette now lives with me - they're all on hard drive. It was lovely hearing them hit the bottom of the wheelie bin!

It means I'll actually listen to them now, rather than have them sitting attracting dust on a shelf!

Bloomin' good riddance!!!!!!

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OOOoooo! Mine will go back in the loft. Hard drives fail, good tapes in good machines rarely do and IF they do you only lose the one!

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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OOOoooo! Mine will go back in the loft. Hard drives fail, good tapes in good machines rarely do and IF they do you only lose the one!

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I have backups of backups of backups! I never lost anything yet and I'm not about to start!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

sorry guys I didn't know this thread was still going.

Well, ive had my deck now for a few months and have never looked at an MP3 since and never missed them at all. I also treat myself to a pro Sony Walkman. Its superb.

I have certainly made the correct choice here. I am very happy I have cassettes back in my life.

I bought a bundle of 400 metal tapes from the US. 200 got through customs but im waiting to hear back how much more I owe on the second lot that got stopped. Anyhow, either way im well stocked. 400 tapes will do me for life.

Hi K,
I looked at metal tapes when I dusted off my Sony Dolby S and quickly stopped looking! The price!
Then I had memories of reports of instabilities in the coatings and justified myself with those and bought TDK-SA.

I would be interested to know if there is much subjective difference between a metal tape and a properly biased (most were not) SA?

Dave.

FWIW I never found metal cassettes all that good with either my Nakamichi or Aiwa decks - both of which allowed for proper settings for tape formulations.

Not only did metal tapes sound brittle, but they also seemed to stretch and fail more frequently. I much preferred SA (or SA-X if I could find them) - they were more reliable, produced a subjectively better sound and were forgiving of Dolby B (I hated the artifacts of Dolby C).

I seem to recall someone telling me that metal tapes caused increased head-wear, but maybe that was just an urban myth.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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FWIW I never found metal cassettes all that good with either my Nakamichi or Aiwa decks - both of which allowed for proper settings for tape formulations.

Not only did metal tapes sound brittle, but they also seemed to stretch and fail more frequently. I much preferred SA (or SA-X if I could find them) - they were more reliable, produced a subjectively better sound and were forgiving of Dolby B (I hated the artifacts of Dolby C).

I seem to recall someone telling me that metal tapes caused increased head-wear, but maybe that was just an urban myth.

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I'm half with you there re metal tapes but personally I've had very good results with Dolby C
I can hardly tell the difference between source and what's coming off the tape when using C

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Yes!

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Bob, surely that's "no worries cuz".

Cheers
Graham

Quote ef37a:

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I would be interested to know if there is much subjective difference between a metal tape and a properly biased (most were not) SA?

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I seem to remember that SA had funny bias requirements which made it sound subjectively brighter on cassette decks biased for normal chrome tapes. The main advantage of metal tape is that you can record higher levels of high frequencies without distortion. A friend of mine had switchable RIAA eq on his amp. It was a good test of a tape machine to record from vinyl with RIAA switched off and then play back the tape with RIAA switched on - metal tapes certainly worked better for this although none was as good as reel to reel.

For longevity I would rather go with Maxell - certainly their reel to reels seem to last better than TDK's.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Thanks James,
I did mention biasing. The SA and AD tapes needed probably the highest bias of any cassettes of the day. In fact AD was almost as good a type 1 tape as many other brands type 2s.

Any tape test must assume proper biasing and EQ. Be like comparing fuels of different octane ratings without re setting the engine timing (with screwdriver and spanner,NOT a bloody computer!).

Hmm? I wonder if you can still buy sets of magneto spanners?

Dave.

I love nostalgia... it's like foundation makeup (for ladeez) -- covers over all indication of blemishes!

I too have fond memories of TDK's SA and SA-X tapes. I used to use AD's for run of the mill vinyl transfers, and SA or -- like Elf -- SA-X if I could find it for important stuff. Still got a box full of recorded cassettes here.

I never got on with metal tapes, or Dolby C, and while Dolby S impressed I was already going digital with a Sony PCM701 and betamax recorder by then. When set up well Dolby C works quite well, but it is very critical of rec/rep alignment, with any errors causing obvious mistracking artefacts.

I was recently asked to reconstruct a music compilation from the late 1970s/early 1980s, using a combination of mostly original CDs and vinyls, because it was increasingly difficult for the owner to find places to play the well-loved cassette, and their own transfer sounded rubbish!

However, while working on the project I was reminded of many things which I had previously managed to erase from my memory:

1. Cassettes stretch with use (or speed control was worse than I remember!).
2. Cassettes lose high end dramatically with use.
3. Cassettes have noticeable wow and flutter.

These things are all horrible and have thankfully all been blown away with the digital wind. Why would anyone want to go back there?

4. Remastered CDs -- especially compilations -- are usually terrible.
5. CDs and vinyls from the same period often sound noticeably different to each other.
6. Different pickups (and Turntable setups) sound quite different from each other.

Thre is no such thing as the 'original' version -- that only existed in the recording studio. Once a track is mastered for release each format sounds different, adn ech replay devices adds its own sound colour overlay. All that matters is what sound character you or the client likes, or doesn't like!

7. When someone gets used to the sound of a completely worn-out tape, recreating a pristine version on CD isn't always quite what they expect or want!



hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hugh, I certainly have to agree about the speed instability/inaccuracy/wow and flutter of cassettes. As cassettes were moving to their natural exit from audio, I was looking to replace my old Neal deck that had expired. It took several goes to find one that played at the right speed and I ended up with a Sony one that was pretty close with a test tape. I think it's also more gentle than some others as I have a couple of tapes that make it stop playing, despite frequent rewindings. Which brings me on neatly to the big problem I always had with cassettes: having to wind/rewind them on a mains deck pretty often if I'd been playing them in the car. Once autoreverse appeared in car stereos, I played some cassettes to death because of this. These were the days when people would break into you car to steal tapes!

Quote tacitus:

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It took several goes to find one that played at the right speed and I ended up with a Sony one that was pretty close with a test tape.

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Just about every cassette recorder ever made has adjustable speed if you know where to look.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Mine is quartz locked direct drive Look at me with my fancy technology in 2012 lol

I'd like to see how stable the speed is imported in a DAW actually, might do that one day when I'm bored

James - I have no idea where to look and I don't want to learn now!

Yeah, I know some of those old recordings sound not so good, but they are of their time and sound good (even great) for it.
I do believe that even Dolby B on a good machine will sound as good as a 128mp3 . . . another reason to push for better standards for compressed files. As storage capacity goes up, hopefully folks will start accepting larger file sizes and . . . well, this belongs on another thread.
It's weird, but after talking to many people, some folks almost feel compelled to store huge amounts of songs on their Mp3 players. Others, like me, have relatively few songs.

I bought a Tasacm 112 off eBay 2 years ago to catalogue my amazingly dynamic ranged (you see what I did creating a verb out of...oh never mind) cassettes and haven't used it since. No, I lie. I used it once to weigh down a geeza at the Rye that owed me money.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote TimJN:

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I do believe that even Dolby B on a good machine will sound as good as a 128mp3 . . . another reason to push for better standards for compressed files.

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Bur "as good" (or maybe "as bad") in different ways! After a generation of digital speed stability we're maybe now more sensitive to the wow of vinyl playback, the flutter of cassette.
I actually copied material from some cassettes yesterday. Some of them had survived remarkably well.

Maybe in another few years we'll marvel at how we tolerated the distortions of a low-rate MP3.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Maybe in another few years we'll marvel at how we tolerated the distortions of a low-rate MP3.

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Possible future thread titles iniclude:

"I want a Fraunhofer codec! Yeah, you heard me!"

or

"Bouncing my final mix: Lame or Ogg Vorbis for that early 2000 sound?"

"128kbps give a certain je-ne-sais-quoi to the sound - like those turn of the century recordings!"

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I'm All Ears.

FWIW, the Bush House clear-out has a whole lot of regular cassette decks going at auction, which I doubt are going to go for much dosh since hardly anyone uses cassettes these days. As well as Revoxes and other more serious tape bits and bobs.

Still waiting for my other 200 metal tapes!! Bloody customs.

Got a ton of my vinyl on my cassettes now. Love it. I just identify so much better with a tangeble object such as a cassette, a 12" etc rather than bit of light and sound.

Its not about sound quality for me. Of course 600 million bit 5 trillion zillion K Wavs are going to sound better. But who cares about such stats when theres great music to be listerned too. Im a huge fan of music, not an fan of stats. Cassettes sound good enough for me and as said ive bought 400 to last me as long as I need.

Id like to make it clear, im not buying albums on cassetes here. Al though that wouldnt bother me, its just I like to have a master copy. And that will be a CD or a chunk of vinyl. So im just making my own compilations and mix tapes. Theres such a great experience in doing that. Of course thats why you all use computers for everything though right? To remove the expereince of everything. I mean it just gets in the way and takes time up. Why bother saying hello to someone and getting of your arse when you can poke someone on face book etc. Same with tapes, why bother when you can just put 60 billion on one device the size of a peanut.
Well, for me its the experience of touching the tape, opening it, putting it in the cassette deck. Being able to relate to a selection of tracks on one tangible object. Ive sadi all this before.

Also, turning a computer on to listern to music does little to please me. Id no doubt end up farting around on it and once again music becomes a background thing.

Tonight I have just sat and listerned to 3 hours worth of music in a room computer free. Ah bliss! Music in the foreground all the way. Not temptations to check facebook or other virtual freind crap. Just music all the way.

I honestly wish id never got rid of cassettes first time around. I mean I never got rid of my vinyl or CDs.

As always I understand 99.9% dont agree with me. But what can I say I am 100% happy with cassettes back in my life.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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However, while working on the project I was reminded of many things which I had previously managed to erase from my memory:

1. Cassettes stretch with use (or speed control was worse than I remember!).
2. Cassettes lose high end dramatically with use.
3. Cassettes have noticeable wow and flutter.

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You forgot print-through. Most of the albums I bought from 1983 to 1993 are on cassette, and that "pre-echo" where you get a hint of the next track in the gap is part of the experience!

A lot of my cherished albums from that time are no more due to record companies using cheap materials and the tape eventually snapping. A lot of vinyl from that period is flimsy and prone to damage as well - shame.

Quote Kolakube:

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Its not about sound quality for me.

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Is this the same Koalakube who was kitting up with audiophile DACs and top-flight monitor speakers a year ago? :-)

Glad to see you're up and out and doing things though.