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AntoniaKat



Joined: 24/08/11
Posts: 1
Which?
      #936423 - 24/08/11 08:22 PM
Hi I am moving from Ireland to London to study Music business. I have looked a couple of schools but yet to see more.

Can anyone tell me which is the better of the two.. Point Blank (1yr cert) or SAE (1yr diploma)

Obviously a diploma is better but on SAE's web site it says nothing about tutors where as Point Blank has impressive tutors.

Anyone with any knowledge or suggestions?

--------------------
Antonia


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Gone To Lunch
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936429 - 24/08/11 09:01 PM
If you want to study business, as in the sense of commerce, copyright law and marketing etc, then City University run some pretty good courses, or at least did years ago when I did them.


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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936436 - 24/08/11 10:01 PM
What is it about the music business you wanna learn about on a course? I mean, don't these places employ lecturers that are there cos they can't actually get a job in the music business apart from lecturing about the 'music business'? Or am I being a tad naive??

Errrr, put it this way, I know a guy that runs a (ahem...) 'course' and he knows bugger all about the music business.

Perhaps this raises the question: Is it necessary to know about the music business in order to teach it? I mean, Fanny Craddock never won a Michelin star did he?


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Crying Chic



Joined: 07/08/07
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936438 - 24/08/11 10:02 PM
LSE are quite good too www.lse.ac.uk


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936449 - 24/08/11 11:12 PM
Quote AntoniaKat:

Hi I am moving from Ireland to London to study Music business. I have looked a couple of schools but yet to see more.

Can anyone tell me which is the better of the two.. Point Blank (1yr cert) or SAE (1yr diploma)

Obviously a diploma is better but on SAE's web site it says nothing about tutors where as Point Blank has impressive tutors.





"Diploma" is a word. "Certificate" is another word. Neither mean much when attached to "Music Business". Don't bother. Really, don't bother.


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narcoman
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936461 - 25/08/11 12:14 AM
Quote AntoniaKat:

Hi I am moving from Ireland to London to study Music business. I have looked a couple of schools but yet to see more.

Can anyone tell me which is the better of the two.. Point Blank (1yr cert) or SAE (1yr diploma)

Obviously a diploma is better but on SAE's web site it says nothing about tutors where as Point Blank has impressive tutors.

Anyone with any knowledge or suggestions?




Neither have impressive tutors. Steer well clear of all. Do something more useful and teach yourself. The sooner legislation buries these companies/courses - the better.


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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936470 - 25/08/11 05:03 AM
Another slightly curious thing about learning the 'music business' from those who have no real experience of the 'music business is that it is knowledge that is of no real use if one wishes to persue a career in the real world of music business. It is akin to Rick Waller coaching the English national triathlon team.

Surely a better approach would be to do a business degree at a 'proper' university. Far more useful. A music business diploma is as much use as a chocloate teapot - well, almost.

Had a look at point blank course:

http://www.pointblanklondon.com/music-business-course/music-business-2.php

The module 'Royalties: What can I earn?' made me giggle somewhat. Well, I mean, ooooooh, ball park figure you can earn millions can't you?

Then again, if I could run the 100 metres 5 seconds faster I'd break the world record.

What also makes me giggle is how these courses now like to stick in 'Entrepreneurial skills'. I venture that this is to cover themselves when people leave and realise the qualification is useless.

And it's only 3.5k. Honestly, you could save the money and just PM Narco with a list of questions or just search this forum cos it's all here.


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blue manga



Joined: 16/09/06
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936495 - 25/08/11 08:14 AM
Look I don't know why ur all being so negative - the website clearly says "Dance music guru DJ Pete Tong visits the Point Blank studios from time to time." - I mean, he ! him ! he, visits it, from time to time !!


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DJW
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936524 - 25/08/11 09:42 AM
I enrolled on a music course a few years ago (1997). It was OK to start with, but it was one of those free ones. It was a two year course crammed into six months! But I did actually learn quite a lot of stuff. Useful maybe. Half the students dropped off of course half way through but I stuck with it. I've learned more from my musical partner than I did on that course! But the whole experience was OK.

--------------------
Duncan J. White


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Point_Blank



Joined: 25/08/11
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936527 - 25/08/11 09:59 AM
Hey Guys,

AntoniaKat - It's cool that your considering Point Blank. Have you been in to take a tour of the college yet?

Although Sue Dunnim's friend knows nothing about the industry, I can assure you that rather than being a place to come and teach after your music career is dead, all of Point Blank's tutors are still heavily involved music projects outside of the college.

I recently took the Business course to check out the college for myself, first hand. It was new tutor; Doug Sturrock's first class, and I was genuinely impressed. The amount of different roles he has worked in throughout the industry is unbelievable, so his knowledge of every aspect of the industry is really well balanced. Most notably, he has managed a number of very successful bands, including; Franz Ferdinand and Klaxons. He has also tour managed The Strokes and The Foo Fighters.

As I said earlier, Doug is still really involved in the industry, and has his own Studio and music venue. He told me yesterday that he has just picked up a couple of exciting new bands and is now managing them as well as continuing to teach at the college.

There seems to be a lot of negative attitudes towards the course from people who haven't studied at the college before, I'd like to hear some feedback from some former students. There are a great number of people who have gone on to successful careers after taking our courses. One example being Ben Scarr, who is now working as an A&R man for Island Records.

It's good to have some debate though, and we genuinely appreciate any feedback we can get from forums.

Cheers,
James - Point Blank


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
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Re: Which? new [Re: DJW]
      #936532 - 25/08/11 10:18 AM
Quote DJW:

I enrolled on a music course a few years ago (1997). It was OK to start with, but it was one of those free ones. It was a two year course crammed into six months! But I did actually learn quite a lot of stuff. Useful maybe. Half the students dropped off of course half way through but I stuck with it. I've learned more from my musical partner than I did on that course! But the whole experience was OK.




Sure, grab what you can for free! Is the course still available? Where?


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
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Re: Which? new [Re: Point_Blank]
      #936538 - 25/08/11 10:34 AM
Quote Point_Blank:

I can assure you that rather than being a place to come and teach after your music career is dead, all of Point Blank's tutors are still heavily involved music projects outside of the college.




That's a fair point. There's not a lot of work around, and many people are probably very grateful for a part-time teaching gig. The Music Business course seems to take just two sessions per week, either on the same day or spread over two evenings.

I'd be looking for a straightforward Business Studies course though, which would hopefully include visits from experts in various specialist areas, including music. Is this sort of thing offered anywhere, or is it ALL about getting foreign students their MBA as quickly as possible?

Then try for an internship in the sort of company that interests you. Or anywhere. Once the romantic notions are knocked out of your head, you may as well learn the trade in a business where there IS some business. You can still keep your eyes open for opportinities - square pegs DO tend to find square holes eventually. And you'll be in a much better position to get that job, when it turns up, if you come from a proven work record, not from a life spent on benefits and hanging around recording studios.


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narcoman
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Re: Which? new [Re: Point_Blank]
      #936560 - 25/08/11 11:39 AM
Quote Point_Blank:

Hey Guys,

AntoniaKat - It's cool that your considering Point Blank. Have you been in to take a tour of the college yet?

Although Sue Dunnim's friend knows nothing about the industry, I can assure you that rather than being a place to come and teach after your music career is dead, all of Point Blank's tutors are still heavily involved music projects outside of the college.




Being involved in music projects is not the same as being active in the industry.


Quote Point_Blank:


I recently took the Business course to check out the college for myself, first hand. It was new tutor; Doug Sturrock's ...... Most notably, he has managed a number of very successful bands, including; Franz Ferdinand and Klaxons. He has also tour managed The Strokes and The Foo Fighters.




That's not the contention. I could come and teach a seminar at the darn college and they'd have my stupidly enormous CV. It'd be pointless. It's like after dinner speaking.... it won't get you my gigs or any like them. It is not an endorsement of a completely private company selling itself as an educational establishment in a biz that doesn't need one.

Quote Point_Blank:


As I said earlier, Doug is still really involved in the industry, and has his own Studio and music venue. He told me yesterday that he has just picked up a couple of exciting new bands and is now managing them as well as continuing to teach at the college.




..and so the point is re-inforced. He's doing all these groovey things (and I've no doubt they ARE groovey) and yet STILL he is teaching an PB? Is that not hugely indicative of the industry - if you have a career you STILL can't make ends meet?

Quote Point_Blank:


There seems to be a lot of negative attitudes towards the course from people who haven't studied at the college before, I'd like to hear some feedback from some former students. There are a great number of people who have gone on to successful careers after taking our courses. One example being Ben Scarr, who is now working as an A&R man for Island Records.




.....and here's where posts like yours become dangerous. Any such opportunities are made BY the person and not in anyway connected to being on a course run by companies such as PB.

One of my employees went to a music tech course - I laughed at his CV, but he was persistent. HE GOT IN despite the disadvantage he had by being in possession of such a piece of useless paper. HIS hard work. He's now one of the licensing managers at my company. I can only imagine it's the same scenario with the A&R at Island (although I don't know Ben I do know many of them - one of my strategic partners was the president of Island for 11 years).

Music tech courses, apart from the one or two high level academic and science based ones such as LIPA or Tonmeister, are leeches on the dreams of young people. They offer nothing to my industry. Many of us are lobbying to get places on those courses severely capped.

Quote Point_Blank:


It's good to have some debate though, and we genuinely appreciate any feedback we can get from forums.

Cheers,
James - Point Blank




This is one of the few places where people can get some balancing advice. We do not need to "balance" an equation that is grossly imbalanced in the first place. Your advertising and monetary intake is already difficult to shake out when it comes to the education of the young; shiny lights entice young minds.....

If PB is looking for industry endorsement (rather than co-incidental success stories from well motivated individuals) then you'd do very well to get people like me, Red Bladder and a few others on side. The current business practises of most music tech "colleges" are a complete affront to the music business proper. PB, SAE et al have not ONCE approached me asking "what do we want in a graduate"...... If you want to have value to the industry (and you SHOULD) start talking to us... the UK employers in this biz. The people that ARE the biz.


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Wease



Joined: 17/07/03
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936592 - 25/08/11 01:11 PM
don't know about anyone else - but wouldn't it be nice if some of these tech courses actually taught some music ?

you know - that boring theory stuff regarding quavers and crochets et al


also - how much of a teaching qualification does one require to "teach" on these courses.....?

(just a little point from someone with a BA Hons in Music and QTS status....me - I'd go for either a proper music degree (with some tech modules thrown in if you want) or a business degree (although I don't even think these are that great)and I'd really like my lecturers to be at doctorate level.....call me old fashioned, but at £8-9 grand a year in fees, I'd want some value for money!)

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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes


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Re: Which? new [Re: Point_Blank]
      #936674 - 25/08/11 06:26 PM
Quote Point_Blank:

There are a great number of people who have gone on to successful careers after taking our courses. One example being Ben Scarr, who is now working as an A&R man for Island Records.





Can you name say, 5 more? How many of the graduates (paying 3.5k for a one day a week course) never got a job in music? I mean proper universities and even the polyversities have stats and stuff right?

I'd love to know what the 'Royalties: What can I earn?' module consists of.


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Re: Which? new [Re: narcoman]
      #936676 - 25/08/11 06:35 PM
Quote narcoman:

They offer nothing to my industry. Many of us are lobbying to get places on those courses severely capped.






And we thank you for it. We need to mount a strategic alliance and try and stop the proliferation of these ridiculous courses.

In the case of Point Blank, I object to the seemingly extortionate 3.5k for a one year course (Music Business cert) consisting of one day a week's tutoring (11am-6pm) - if indeed that time period is wall to wall tutoring - which I doubt because we know how tired 20-somethings get. I guess there's probably some 'project development time' or something thrown in too...

http://www.pointblanklondon.com/music-business-course.php



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Soundseed
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Re: Which? new [Re: * User requested deletion *]
      #936696 - 25/08/11 09:48 PM
I have to agree with much of the sentiment expressed here, but I also have to admit a grudging admiration for these businesses, which so effectively extract money from gullible wannabees who can't be bothered to do even a modicum of research. I mean, how difficult is it to ask: how many of your students entered full time paid employment in music related businesses on graduation last year? ... or "what is the average income for graduates of your establishment?" ... or any number of similar questions which if answered truthfully would lead the prospective student to conclude "no thanks".

And why for that matter single out colleges? There is a vast global industry based on exploiting people's aspirations to make money from music, whether it be multinational corporations, boutique outboard specialists, sample libraries, your friendly neighbourhood music tech mag/forum, or even many of us at an individual level. If I for one had to give back all the money I'd earned from clients who had the slimmest of statistical chances of earning it back, I'd be a good deal poorer. That said, I spent it all on gear, and releasing albums that don't sell, so I'm a mug too.

And let's ask: if these courses/institutions are so bad, why is the esteemed SOS taking their advertising money? Right here as I type this, I can see adverts for Point Blank and Berklee College of Music on the page. And there are tons of them in the magazine too. FFS - my local branch of SAE takes out full size street side billboards. Last time I looked at a NAMM Global Report, there was $17,000,000,000 worth of instrument and equipment sales in a single year (2008 I think). And thats just the stuff that musicians buy from music stores ... its a massive industry, and a pretty substantial part of it is without doubt based on selling stuff to people who will get absolutely nothing tangible from their investment.

So if we're going to be critical of the general practice of exploiting aspiration, where do we stop?

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narcoman
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936698 - 25/08/11 10:07 PM
Interesting points.

I guess with instruments there is something else to be gained - you're own musical learning. Self taught or otherwise. The goal is artistic and you can't put a price on that. If such a course solely sold itself on improving your artistic matters then I'd take less issue with it.

As for advertising in SOS. I've no problem with the it as long as it isn't within the pages of the Forum itself.

the only real issue is this is a job light industry. It gets WROSE by flooding it with a series of "graduates" looking to get a foot in the door. The undercutting in this biz (which is a real problem as we either have to compete with them or justify why we don't) is partly fuelled by the high expectations but lower skill level of the oodle-grads from music tech. To many wannabes!!


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Soundseed
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Re: Which? new [Re: narcoman]
      #936706 - 25/08/11 11:04 PM
Quote narcoman:

Interesting points.

I guess with instruments there is something else to be gained - you're own musical learning. Self taught or otherwise. The goal is artistic and you can't put a price on that. If such a course solely sold itself on improving your artistic matters then I'd take less issue with it.

As for advertising in SOS. I've no problem with the it as long as it isn't within the pages of the Forum itself.

the only real issue is this is a job light industry. It gets WROSE by flooding it with a series of "graduates" looking to get a foot in the door. The undercutting in this biz (which is a real problem as we either have to compete with them or justify why we don't) is partly fuelled by the high expectations but lower skill level of the oodle-grads from music tech. To many wannabes!!




I'm sure we've had this debate before :-)

The way I see it, is that market for music bought and paid for by consumers is now smaller than the market for products which facilitate its creation/promotion and distribution. At the heart of this "new" business is the fuelling of aspiration - the suggestion that anybody can do it. If we look at the "pinnacle" of the music selling industry, the artistic role models aren't - and never really have been - particularly obvious for their strident musical talents. The thing is nowadays technology erodes the difference between top and bottom, and makes it more subjective than ever before .... its like a mirage: you can do it, but you just need this .. and then this ... and then this ... and then ..... and its across the board - aspiring engineers, producers, composers, performers, songwriters, programmers, managers, labels, promoters ...

Courses are just one part of this cycle of need, and since the outcome is almost always intangible, it doesn't really matter whether we're talking about a course, this months SOS, a new plug in, sample library, ribbon mic or whatever - they're all just ways of extracting money from musical types, and in one way another all part of the wedge.

I wouldn't for a moment argue with your description of the unpleasant and downright destructive side effects of far too many courses/graduates, but my impression is that its part of an inexorable shift away from making money from music to making money from musicians.

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http://piethaag.bandcamp.com/


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narcoman
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936709 - 25/08/11 11:19 PM
good post.


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Mike Stranks
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Re: Which? new [Re: narcoman]
      #936732 - 26/08/11 07:31 AM
Quote narcoman:

good post.



Quite so!


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bugiolacchi



Joined: 01/10/09
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Re: Which? new [Re: Soundseed]
      #936780 - 26/08/11 10:02 AM
It's funny, isn't it, all these 'professional' courses trying to teach 'music business' or 'music technology'. I for one designed a full one-year course for a college trying to entice 'young ethnic men' into education, and later on managed another one for years targeting the 'neet' audience.
What a bloody waste of time. I needed the money and 'enjoyed' explaining how a compressor works and so on... but did I boost even the sightliest changes of employment of any of my pupils? No. (my conscience does not rest easy on this.. but I needed the money to get me through my PhD...)

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with 'sucking' money out of people's hobbies.. Train spotters know they will never drive a real train or let alone, own one. And this is the same for people buying magazines on high performance cars, boats, or planes. It is a hobby-curiosity to keep our minds distracted from the realities of life... being in unloving relationships, the constant hand of the ripper on our shoulders, professional (real) disappointments, financial dire straits, etc..

I think it's just a matter of honesty from the 'educational' providers: they should clearly market their wares as 'aspirational courses': "do you like messing around with instruments, getting stuck in Cubase, not understanding really how your latest professional (cracked) mastering plug-in works, etc... come and join us, your hobby experience will gain immensely, and all for just a few thousands pounds a year!".

The problem with colleges and even schools offering these kind of courses instead of 'studios' or free-lance professionals (what is wrong if I charge you £50/hr to show you Cubase?) is that they sell you these courses alongside 'real' ones, e.g. engineering, business, plumbing... same fees, same institutes, etc. IF they offered these 'diplomas' alongside 'proficiency in Flight Simulators Certificate', 'Sport Cars Understanding and Appreciation Diploma', 'Ship Model Building Proficiency Course' it would be soooo more honest.

I would love to join the presumed lobby group against these malpractices and propose to subscribe and contribute financially to an open letter (advert) in SOS highlighting the pitfalls of these courses. I put my wallet where my mouse is.


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bugiolacchi



Joined: 01/10/09
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Re: Which? new [Re: bugiolacchi]
      #936793 - 26/08/11 10:36 AM
Sorry, a quick one, I love the "College of Music" advertised here offering a course in 'Reason'.. online! No further comment!

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Which? new [Re: Soundseed]
      #936796 - 26/08/11 11:04 AM
Quote Soundseed:

And let's ask: if these courses/institutions are so bad, why is the esteemed SOS taking their advertising money?




Er... partly because the magazine relies upon advertising revenue to remeain in business and produce the magazine nad website that you all enjoy so much. Added to that, we aren't allowed, by law, to pick and choose who we allow to advertise in the magazine, other than for reasons of space/cost, even if we wanted to....

While it is obvious that different courses deliver training to different standards to meet different expectations, budgets and aims, I'm quite sure that all have at least some merit. Were that not the case they'd go out of business very quickly.

As with everything in life, it is encumbent upon the potential student to ascertain the suitability of a specific course to meet their needs and expectations, and a course that one person rates highly might not be appropriate to another, and some might find great value and worth from a course that others slate. It is a complicated area that requires careful research before committing.

As for the wider point about employment in the industry; yes, it is extremely difficult and while a good qualification from a 'good' college might make it easier to get a few more interviews, it certainly won't guarantee a job. The most highly motivated, dedicated and skilled will undoubtedly make it sooner or later, regardless of which course they went on.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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ken long



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Re: Which? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #936802 - 26/08/11 11:31 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Added to that, we aren't allowed, by law, to pick and choose who we allow to advertise in the magazine, other than for reasons of space/cost, even if we wanted to....





Just don't tell Russ Andrews...

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I'm All Ears.


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Soundseed
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Re: Which? new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #936834 - 26/08/11 02:32 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:



While it is obvious that different courses deliver training to different standards to meet different expectations, budgets and aims, I'm quite sure that all have at least some merit. Were that not the case they'd go out of business very quickly.

Hugh




You raise an interesting point there .. why do these businesses succeed?

Essentially, they are able to rely on the student being able to leverage fees through acquiring debt - and curiously, if you look at a report like the DCMS Banking On A Hit, the music education sector is almost entirely atypical in the industry as whole, in that institutional lenders are actually engaged and willing to hand over funds. I'd argue that the reason for this is that these courses are generally validated by credible educational institutions - who of course take a per student slice of the funding.

It is common practice to bat this back to the students, saying they should have done their research. Yet, there is a near complete absence of objective, peer reviewed statistically oriented academic research which might yield reliable understanding of what the prospective student is entering into. And where might we expect this research to come from? Why of course the very bodies providing the courses and the validation of qualifications.

So if you were a young and inexperienced aspiring musician/engineer/producer how would this all stack up? Funding from official sources, validation by credible institutions, training provided by established providers, advertised in your favourite music tech mags - where everything is about success - and no credible research to contradict the mantra all are chanting in unison: YOU CAN DO IT.

There are so many vested interests at play here... However, I do understand that its business, and nobody is doing anything wrong per se... I'd be first to admit that its all hearsay. Without proper research we can't really know what is going on.

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Point_Blank



Joined: 25/08/11
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Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936835 - 26/08/11 02:37 PM
I think something that should be highlighted, is the fact that this is not the only course that we offer. We have a multitude of courses that offer practical, technical and theoretical training for students. The course was bred out of a demand from satisfied students who enjoyed studying here and wanted to learn more about the business they are looking to work in. I also don’t think there would be such harsh criticism of a music business focused module at a University rather than colleges like ours. Though you will find most Universities do run these modules.

The guys teaching the course are experienced industry professionals who know the effort it takes to make something out of your career path in music. One of the things that we stress before people part with their money and throughout all of our courses, is how hard it is to break into the music industry. We make no promises that the courses are a guarantee of finding a job after, but we do our best to help students along their way through our ties with labels and other organisations, and by advertising music industry jobs on our websites. The onus is on the student’s own drive and ability at the end of the day, as with any training self-taught or otherwise.

Above all things, advice on networking and ways to best get involved in the aspect of the business you are passionate about is promoted by our tutors. If you think taking a music business course is the lead into an easy, glamorous, showbiz life, then such fantasies will be shattered quickly here.

Sue Dunnim – I would refer you to these pages for more students who have gone on to achieve success.

- www.pointblankonline.net/online-student-success
- www.pointblanklondon.com/college-student-success

Edited by Point_Blank (26/08/11 02:41 PM)


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T_L



Joined: 21/09/04
Posts: 386
Re: Which? new [Re: Point_Blank]
      #936843 - 26/08/11 03:01 PM
Quote Point_Blank:

The onus is on the student’s own drive and ability at the end of the day, as with any training self-taught or otherwise.





The problem is this makes it even harder to measure the reason for success and can shroud lazy tuition quite easily; I did a course not a million miles away from what you're offering and it provided me with a few skills that were fun to acquire but little else. I'm now (thankfully) doing well in a very closely-related field of work but the learnings on said course did nothing to help my prospects.

Getting back to your point, as it happens my first foot-up came through a friend I made at the university. Hearing this would make my dear old lecturers look up from their copies of Music Week and say 'ah-ha! so you did it yourself, that's exactly what we taught you to do', but in actual fact I would've met that person in the Students Union/Halls of Residence regardless of the course I took.

I think (separating my personal experiences from this analogy here, lest I sound like an absolute tool) that if you're predisposed to looking out for yourself, working hard, identifying opportunities and are armed with average to good social skills, you can make a lot of friends in many walks of life and the more friends you make the more likely you are to be able to get a little further ahead in life thanks to one of them.

**footnote** - I had a great time at university


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Soundseed
new member


Joined: 22/04/03
Posts: 412
Loc: Glasgow
Re: Which? new [Re: Point_Blank]
      #936847 - 26/08/11 03:12 PM
Quote Point_Blank:


Sue Dunnim – I would refer you to these pages for more students who have gone on to achieve success.

- www.pointblankonline.net/online-student-success
- www.pointblanklondon.com/college-student-success




This isn't information: its marketing and promotion - it is a play on the aspirational nature of what you are selling. I'm sure somewhere you have figures which would tell us how many students were in directly related full time, part time or self employment within say 12 months of course completion. Or what kind of income levels they achieved; or any other number of reliable objective statistics which would allow prospective students to make informed decisions.

Why not give us stats instead of role models?

------------------------
http://piethaag.bandcamp.com/


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2517
Loc: . ...
Re: Which? new [Re: narcoman]
      #936859 - 26/08/11 04:22 PM
Quote narcoman:

If PB is looking for industry endorsement (rather than co-incidental success stories from well motivated individuals) then you'd do very well to get people like me, Red Bladder and a few others on side. The current business practises of most music tech "colleges" are a complete affront to the music business proper. PB, SAE et al have not ONCE approached me asking "what do we want in a graduate"...... If you want to have value to the industry (and you SHOULD) start talking to us... the UK employers in this biz. The people that ARE the biz.




Now, there's the bars on my cage being banged on again.

One of the reasons that the World beats a pathway to the door of the British music-for-film industry and wants our musos and our engineers, is the high quality of the people working here, as well as the fact that we speak English.

It is still true that the CHEAPEST way to record an orchestral score, is to get a scratch orchestra into the Abbey and get it recorded by a graduate of the Surrey Tonmeister course. The reason is, they will get it right, first time. We have a magical combination of first class musicians from just a couple of schools and first class engineers that are just as at home with the score, as they are with ProTools and Logic.

If we didn't have the Tonmeister graduates, we would be importing the 'originals' from Germany. As things are, in other fields, we do just that -

Old Doc. Sennheiser Snr. (the one who died recently) once told me that the World uses German microphones because of the excellence of German engineers. Because German companies employ Germans and insist on employees having a full-blow ACCREDITED qualification in what they are doing, if you buy a DVD, go to a concert, watch a live concert on DVD or TV, more and more of that sound is passing through the hands of German companies. I know, because I work with them, or I have worked with them in the past.

Live sound engineers, lighting engineers, vision mixers, DVD authoring, all these are proper three-year apprenticeships in Germany. That is what we need in the UK and not yet another bogus 'diploma' gained by breathing.

We still have some of the best camera people in the World, thanks to one institution that (as far as I am aware) has not dropped its standards.

If I go out into our yard and lift a rock, I shall find yet another graduate of some 'Music Technology' (or similar) course. Two more CVs arrived today BTW. The only problem is, these people cannot read music, or read a circuit diagram. Some of them cannot even use a soldering iron!

Next month, we shall be doing a partial re-cap of the monitoring section of the main desk and we shall be doing a total recap of a used desk I bought for mobile use. This Winter, we shall be editing Bach and Schubert. None of the Herberts living under rocks, that keep sending me their CVs, brimming with misguided optimism, are going to be worth squat for work like that!

Being groovy and windswept, behind the big desk, comes AFTER you have spent a few years, churning through work like that - never just after college!


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5834
Re: Which? new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #936863 - 26/08/11 04:51 PM
Quote The Red Bladder:


Next month, we shall be doing a partial re-cap of the monitoring section of the main desk and we shall be doing a total recap of a used desk I bought for mobile use. This Winter, we shall be editing Bach and Schubert. None of the Herberts living under rocks, that keep sending me their CVs, brimming with misguided optimism, are going to be worth squat for work like that!





I wouldn't let a Tonmeister loose on the re-capping job! Specialist technicians still come in handy sometimes.


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* User requested
...




Joined: 31/08/05
Posts: 1693
Re: Which? new [Re: Soundseed]
      #936867 - 26/08/11 05:08 PM
Quote Soundseed:

I'm sure somewhere you have figures which would tell us how many students were in directly related full time, part time or self employment within say 12 months of course completion.

Why not give us stats instead of role models?






This would indeed be fascinating.


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narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: Which? new [Re: Point_Blank]
      #936872 - 26/08/11 05:20 PM
Quote Point_Blank:

I also don’t think there would be such harsh criticism of a music business focused module at a University rather than colleges like ours. Though you will find most Universities do run these modules.





So..

1. We don't need PB because universities already do this?

2. I berate universities that shell out such useless courses anyway - they should know better.

3. If PB offered courses of a standard outlined by Red above AND limited places to an amount relatable to the requirements of the business we, as industry professionals, could take PB seriously. Instead what PB does is churn out mostly useless "grads" for a hugely oversubscribed industry and undermine the earning potential of the few that ARE useful. It's a very money rinsing way of doing things. Until those changes happen PB, SAE and others like them will remain the laughing stock of professionals - unfortunately a laughing stock that has had a damaging effect on the biz.


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5834
Re: Which? new [Re: * User requested deletion *]
      #936901 - 26/08/11 08:01 PM
Quote Sue Dunnim:

Quote Soundseed:

I'm sure somewhere you have figures which would tell us how many students were in directly related full time, part time or self employment within say 12 months of course completion.

Why not give us stats instead of role models?






This would indeed be fascinating.




I'm afraid ANY institution might find it embarassing to do that at present.


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10826
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Which? new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #936912 - 26/08/11 09:45 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Sue Dunnim:

Quote Soundseed:

I'm sure somewhere you have figures which would tell us how many students were in directly related full time, part time or self employment within say 12 months of course completion.

Why not give us stats instead of role models?






This would indeed be fascinating.




I'm afraid ANY institution might find it embarassing to do that at present.




I'm fairly sure that reputable institutions actually do try to carry out this research. They actually employ people to keep track of alumni. There are also measures like citation indexes that attempt to show how good the staff of the institution actually are.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5834
Re: Which? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #936918 - 26/08/11 10:40 PM
Quote James Perrett:

I'm fairly sure that reputable institutions actually do try to carry out this research. They actually employ people to keep track of alumni.




Indeed. So they can send them begging letters.


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Stan



Joined: 17/01/05
Posts: 1311
Loc: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Re: Which? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #936920 - 26/08/11 10:46 PM
Quote James Perrett:

I'm fairly sure that reputable institutions actually do try to carry out this research. They actually employ people to keep track of alumni. There are also measures like citation indexes that attempt to show how good the staff of the institution actually are.

James.




No doubt! We all love our heros. Including excellent universities. everybody boasts!
Which brings me to the question for the tutors of 'music production' - where are your heros?
repeat: Never give a sucker an even break.
The new world is us.

--------------------
.. is this thing on?


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uphillbothways



Joined: 19/11/09
Posts: 190
Re: Which? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #936923 - 26/08/11 11:18 PM
Quote James Perrett:



I'm fairly sure that reputable institutions actually do try to carry out this research. They actually employ people to keep track of alumni.
James.




If they have the data, they certainly don't publish it. I can only draw one conclusion from that - they don't want prospective students to know the truth about their employment prospects as a graduate.

Try it yourself - phone up anyone offering any course in music tech and ask them what percentage of their graduates end up with a paid job in the industry. You'll get a lot of equivocating, a lot of anecdotes about someone who made it big, a lot of non-committal answers along the lines of "It all depends on how much you put in as a student", but no real answers.

The market for music tech education consists of LIPA, Surrey and a horde of bandits and charlatans.


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Crying Chic



Joined: 07/08/07
Posts: 133
Re: Which? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #936924 - 26/08/11 11:23 PM
Quote James Perrett:



I'm fairly sure that reputable institutions actually do try to carry out this research. They actually employ people to keep track of alumni. There are also measures like citation indexes that attempt to show how good the staff of the institution actually are.

James.




My local Polyversity actually pays for local media companies to 'employ' their graduates in a freelance capacity for about 24 days a year and then marks them as 'employed in media' for their stats. The local media companies get a free worker and the Poly gets it's stats... Everyone's happy apart from me. I'm getting all my easy jobs pinched by the glut of graduates who the small media companies do not need to pay!


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Which? new [Re: AntoniaKat]
      #936939 - 27/08/11 03:57 AM
I like your truth and honesty Narcoman.


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