I don't want to trespass on other peoples posting territory but this article amazed me.

PRS Where does the money go

For me it's hard to see how that kind of wage can be justifed?

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I've never liked a solo violin, you need at least five for a proper fire.

4 x the salary of the UK Prime Minister !!

Quote RhinoTime:

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I don't want to trespass on other peoples posting territory but this article amazed me.

PRS Where does the money go

For me it's hard to see how that kind of wage can be justifed?

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You think that's high? For that level of job? I suppose in light of the PRS mandate it's perhaps high , but it's not high in terms of a CEO salary + other inputs. Not at all.

The thing is - you cannot draw in the CEO level talent without offering reasonably attractive packages - and I don't really think this is a particularly attractive package for the level of responsibility involved.

Quote Phil O:

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4 x the salary of the UK Prime Minister !!

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It is 4 x the posted salary. But it isn't 4 times what the PM earns.

Funny how we keep talking about CEO level talent when our businesses are going down the pan, outsourcing, off-shoring or a combination of the three. I don't see much exercise of talent there, and haven't for many years.

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Gear List: reverse only.

I'm with Dave on this.

I'm not convinced by this "it's the market rate" argument. Even at £100K PA, I don't think there'd be a shortage of very capable candidates.

Edited by Phil O (02/06/12 03:57 PM)

of course there would be; I wouldn't take a £100k as leader of the PRS!!! The responsibility alone would give me a fekking heart attack!! You wanna get the right people you have to offer an attractive package. Sometimes it doesn't quite work - but being at the CEO level is a skilled and connective job. Yup - sometimes the fit isn't right. I work with people at that level all the time these days and I'm fully aware of the challenges involved.

I agree that it seems like a lot of money when one bears in mind all the issues in lower management and there are also serial CEOs... but at the end of the day (ho ho) if you want someone cabal of steering a company to the goals that it's shareholders or directors board requests then you absolutely need people with the right historical connectivity, the right character fit for the company and the right set of steel balls to damn well take the challenge full on. It's not an easy role and the wages offered represent the market value of such things. You don't like that - then start pulling the country back towards socialism. Suits me fine!!

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Funny how we keep talking about CEO level talent when our businesses are going down the pan, outsourcing, off-shoring or a combination of the three. I don't see much exercise of talent there, and haven't for many years.

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......If it is in the interests of the board and it's stock holders or (in the case of the PRS) it's directors then that is precisely what you do. A CEO's role isn't to safeguard the UK economy. Thats the Governments role - they should be providing an environment such that those steering a company keep the assets and talent employment in the UK.

So , addressing each point:

Going down the pan: We're in a western economy where we don't rule the world anymore. We have cheaper offers of doing the same job elsewhere - competition FORCES high priced nations like the UK to undergo economic instability. There is a lot to solve to stop businesses going down he pan, but blaming CEOs or directorial boards is not it (or at least not it alone). But remember this - it's also CEOs that steer companies that are growing - like Shitbook, Google, Apple or any of the media companies doing well at the moment. OR the craphole universities that are earning loads of money!!

Outsourcing Im bloody glad some companies DO outsource - I would have a company if not for that particular bit of market led do dah. Now if we had a nice socialist economy i would have those contracts applied to me rather than having to undercut to get em....

Off shoring again, as brutal as that is; what business is that of a CEO or directorial board? If it makes company economic sense to do it then you do it. It's not about being fair - which I suspect is at the root of your concern here. I share that concern - it isn't fair. But what is?


I understand how unfair it does seem when one man earns several hundred £K a year and another barely scrapes by on £18k. Such is the nature of a free economy. But is it any more unfair than footballers earning far higher figures or elite songwriters doing the same? What about successful actors? Or lottery winners? That isn't fair either is it (I agree!!). Or UK universities charging money for useless courses? Or being paid to be a model? that's GOTTA be unfair....

Running a business according to the mandate of those that finance it for the reward they offer isn't something anywhere high up the "unfair" league tables. Banking bonus'? Thats a different story.....


No, what this really boils down to is "'ere! that blokes job is a piece of piss; I could do that .... gis a job"

Quote narcoman:

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You think that's high? For that level of job? I suppose in light of the PRS mandate it's perhaps high , but it's not high in terms of a CEO salary + other inputs. Not at all.

The thing is - you cannot draw in the CEO level talent without offering reasonably attractive packages - and I don't really think this is a particularly attractive package for the level of responsibility involved.

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Oh please.

Do remind us all exactly what this "talent" involves, and give us some examples of the sorts of superhuman intellectual powers these people display, the jaw-dropping feats of differential calculus they perform in the blink of an eyelid. The profoundly elegant choices they make from the wine-list. The sublime discretion with which they vomit in a handbag.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote narcoman:

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I understand how unfair it does seem when one man earns several hundred £K a year and another barely scrapes by on £18k. Such is the nature of a free economy.

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What a load of utter drivel.
It's the nature of greedy bastards doing what they can get away with, riding on the back of cumulative nepotism, selfishness, lies and general banal evil. There's just a seperation by degree between your "free economy" and a regime such as that of Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe... and given enough time and free reign, I don't doubt the directors of PRS would be taking us all the way to Harare, "but with records..."

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote narcoman:

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No, what this really boils down to is "'ere! that blokes job is a piece of piss; I could do that .... gis a job"

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If Yosser Hughes can be King of Rohan, I can wear a f*cking suit and have lunch with Ferghal Sharkey. Christ.

How about you stop the sycophantic handwaving and give us some concrete examples of the daily life of a CEO. What might he be doing between 1pm and 3.30pm on a typical day? Ironing out a few hyperbolic trig functions, perhaps? Perfecting a new deep-packet scan de-encryption algorithm?

NEXT WEEK: Narcoman watches Terry Gilliam's Brazil, and decides double-breasted suits are best.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Yosser could have run EMI. He'd be Sir Yosser now.

Edited by Airfix (02/06/12 09:19 PM)

That was the only reeeeeeason, we all had to, say goodbye!!!!! :-D

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

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we all had to, say goodbye!!!!! :-D

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A story with a such sad end? That's just cant be right.

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Quote narcoman:

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No, what this really boils down to is "'ere! that blokes job is a piece of piss; I could do that .... gis a job"

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If Yosser Hughes can be King of Rohan, I can wear a f*cking suit and have lunch with Ferghal Sharkey. Christ.

How about you stop the sycophantic handwaving and give us some concrete examples of the daily life of a CEO. What might he be doing between 1pm and 3.30pm on a typical day? Ironing out a few hyperbolic trig functions, perhaps? Perfecting a new deep-packet scan de-encryption algorithm?

NEXT WEEK: Narcoman watches Terry Gilliam's Brazil, and decides double-breasted suits are best.

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Then I guess you have no understanding of how businesses work ....... Your ignorance ain't my problem. I've given an explanation of the workings. I've explained why such people are offered large wages. I've NOT said various people are or are not efficient at what they do. I've also not endorsed such behaviour.... But your simplistic approach to argument and debate means that if somebody explains something it therefore must be what they think and subscribe to.


Coincidently enough, the CEO I was in a meeting wi from 11am to 1pm ( close enough) was discussing and outlining strategies and solving the soft issues of a merger creating 50 new jobs in a certain new build in the Parsons Green rough area. he was representing the largely dumb views of the directorial board and trying to find middle ground. Others around the table quizzed him on his investment strategy over the next 12 to 18 months to accommodate the instruction from the venture capital firm they operate under to ensure a roughy return upon the given capital. Apparently after our gruelling two hours he went straight up to Glasgow for a similar meeting, deciding the fates of several hundred employees, collating local strategies for expense and trying to understand how best to spend the 40 plus million quid of investment capital for that area whilst all the time balancing some attempt at a moral compass with his job..... Making money for his investors. It's high pressure, aneurism inducing business and I wouldn't want that role for anything less than that kind of money.

Oh, I guess I'm also a [ ****** ] cus I earn six figures. Was I less of a [ ****** ] when I was struggling on benefits 20 years ago?

I think I understand perfectly well how they "work" - which is why I am so full of derision for such ludicrously inflated executive pay.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

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I think I understand perfectly well how they "work" - which is why I am so full of derision for such ludicrously inflated executive pay.

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You may think you do. But you don't actually know. Of course, some of what you may say might carry some weight if you didn't blanket everything with a narrow view of " one bad egg, all bad eggs".

I've hea similar disparaging stories from time to time about A&R in older labels..... Always from people who have a big opinion but no actual experience.

Yes a scandalous story of such half wits within some companies is irritating. But a CEO is working for the board and I can damn well tell you, the three CEOs I regularly work for and with are both morally on track and damn well earn their pay.

Amd full of derision for big pay? okay.... Then what do you think of MY pay?

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Oh, I guess I'm also a [ ****** ] cus I earn six figures. Was I less of a [ ****** ] when I was struggling on benefits 20 years ago?

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Is that a trick question?

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

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What a load of utter drivel.
It's the nature of greedy bastards doing what they can get away with, riding on the back of cumulative nepotism, selfishness, lies and general banal evil. There's just a seperation by degree between your "free economy" and a regime such as that of Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe... and given enough time and free reign, I don't doubt the directors of PRS would be taking us all the way to Harare, "but with records..."

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1 it's not my free economy.
2. What a ludicrous statement.

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Quote narcoman:

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Oh, I guess I'm also a [ ****** ] cus I earn six figures. Was I less of a [ ****** ] when I was struggling on benefits 20 years ago?

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Is that a trick question?

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Possibly. But seriously..... Do you have a problem with people earning more than you? is that the route of your anger? I don't work like that. I despise greed, I despise morally corrupt individuals. But I cannot form a straight link between every individual and his pay packet correlated with the weight of his moral baggage. Yes, there are complete cunts in the high earning sector. But there are plenty of cunts at the poor end too.


20 years ago I'd nick your car. 20 years ago I'd fly off the handle for no good reason. 20 years ago if you did well at anything I'd slag you down. Nowadays I provide several jobs, invest in people and direct a committed team on projects that help and train others. The me that earns pretty well contributes to society. the one 20 years ago leeched and smed his way into society hating stupors.

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Amd full of derision for big pay? okay.... Then what do you think of MY pay?

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I dunno what you do, to be fair, nor what you earn, so it would be somewhat daft to venture an opion on it.

If it's any consolation, my earnings this year will have me well over the 40% income tax threshold, basically for me spending about 10 hours a week tidying a multi-national corporation's IT dept's sock drawer for them, whilst being bored and typing on the Internet most of the the rest of the time. Which strikes me as ludicrously overpaid compared to what my other half earns for working about 58 hours a week as a nurse.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote narcoman:

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Quote feline1:

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What a load of utter drivel.
It's the nature of greedy bastards doing what they can get away with, riding on the back of cumulative nepotism, selfishness, lies and general banal evil. There's just a seperation by degree between your "free economy" and a regime such as that of Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe... and given enough time and free reign, I don't doubt the directors of PRS would be taking us all the way to Harare, "but with records..."

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1 it's not my free economy.
2. What a ludicrous statement.

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If by "ludicrous" you mean "basically and essentially correct", then I agree

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

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Possibly. But seriously..... Do you have a problem with people earning more than you? is that the route of your anger?

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Not really. What I have nothing but contempt for is a cartel of nepotistic sociopathic fuckwits paying themselves grotesquely inflated remuneration for more or less tossing a coin a couple of times a day in between lunchbreaks.
If you think it's so great, why don't you go and live in Russia? (That's a serious question, by the way)


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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote narcoman:

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Coincidently enough, the CEO I was in a meeting wi from 11am to 1pm ( close enough) was discussing and outlining strategies and solving the soft issues of a merger creating 50 new jobs in a certain new build in the Parsons Green rough area. he was representing the largely dumb views of the directorial board and trying to find middle ground. Others around the table quizzed him on his investment strategy over the next 12 to 18 months to accommodate the instruction from the venture capital firm they operate under to ensure a roughy return upon the given capital. Apparently after our gruelling two hours he went straight up to Glasgow for a similar meeting, deciding the fates of several hundred employees, collating local strategies for expense and trying to understand how best to spend the 40 plus million quid of investment capital for that area whilst all the time balancing some attempt at a moral compass with his job..... Making money for his investors. It's high pressure, aneurism inducing business and I wouldn't want that role for anything less than that kind of money.

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My god! Talking shite for 2 hours and then putting his feet up in first class in one of Richard Branson's Pendalinos. Stayed in a B&B in Glasgow, did he? Or was he sleeping on a mater's sofa?
And what pressure, deciding the fate of all those employees! (cos my god, if he got it wrong, he'd really have to answer to them, wouldn't he? After they voted him into office and put so much trust in him. It's not like if any one of them was rude to him, they could be sacked. Oh wait...)
And yeah, christ, imagine if he blew £40 million! He might have to get the boot with a golden parachute and go and be a CEO somewhere else instead. Awful. They might not have such nice biscuits at his next place.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

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If it's any consolation, my earnings this year will have me well over the 40% income tax threshold, basically for me spending about 10 hours a week tidying a multi-national corporation's IT dept's sock drawer for them, whilst being bored and typing on the Internet most of the the rest of the time. Which strikes me as ludicrously overpaid compared to what my other half earns for working about 58 hours a week as a nurse.

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Indeed. But your paid inline with the worth such entities have put upon you for what you do. It's neither your fault nor downfall that you get paid.

My other half is an anaesthetist for the NHS at GOS. She works brutal hours for what I consider to be low pay. she quite rightly moans at me for earning more citing that " I save lives.... What do you do".

And she's right. So what do I do. well not what a CEO does for a start. when I was younger I used to despise my manager. I thought he was lazy and useless. I didn't realise until many years later what his job really was, now that I'm in a similar role. The oint being, bad and good stuff happens in business all the time.... But we get to know only about the bad stuff. Getting paid and having a business to work at is, whetheh we agree with the pay scale or not, is what those douchebags in the higher echelons do. We can't all be generals.

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My god! Talking shite for 2 hours and then putting his feet up in first class in one of Richard Branson's Pendalinos. Stayed in a B&B in Glasgow, did he? Or was he sleeping on a mater's sofa?
And what pressure, deciding the fate of all those employees! (cos my god, if he got it wrong, he'd really have to answer to them, wouldn't he? After they voted him into office and put so much trust in him. It's not like if any one of them was rude to him, they could be sacked. Oh wait...)
And yeah, christ, imagine if he blew £40 million! He might have to get the boot with a golden parachute and go and be a CEO somewhere else instead. Awful. They might not have such nice biscuits at his next place.

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Right. So businesses just run themselves do they? investment just places itself? it's all well and good having an point on a payment strategy or investment. But it is just nuts beyond belief to belittle the structures needed to operate in the capital world we inhabit. Get those decisions wrong and it fucks a business, and jobs, and people and economics.

As for talking "shite"; those shite talking sessions may well cause problems for some peoplee, but they also create jobs and provide those with jobs with a framework for business. You can't tar all with the same brush.

Me? socialist as they come. But nobody will follow down that road so here we are.

It is fairly normal in any primate troup for there to be "leaders" and for them to get perks.

However when the perks that the elite get is so preposterously out of proportion, it poisons the whole society. It's unhealthy.
Hence we get headlines such as http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16114915
("Excutive Pay has rised 4000% in the past 30 years") and also this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023949/London-riots-2011-Hackney- Croydon-violence-shows-sign-abating.html (you know, riots 'n' sh1t)

I grew up in 70s/80s Northern Ireland, where we had rather more than just riots due to 30 odd years of analagous public-sector fat-cat debauchery. It wasn't nice.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

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Right. So businesses just run themselves do they? investment just places itself? it's all well and good having an point on a payment strategy or investment. But it is just nuts beyond belief to belittle the structures needed to operate in the capital world we inhabit. Get those decisions wrong and it fucks a business, and jobs, and people and economics.

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Er, you obviously hadn't noticed, but they DO regularly get them wrong. And it has [ ****** ] the entire economy. The people responsible haven't had aneurisms, just bonuses.

The fact that this executive class have increasingly been allowed to wallow around in a pampered platinum-plated fantasy world has not led to them "getting the best people for the job", it's instead lead to a load of reckless coke-snorting loons who are utterly divorced from reality just wanking around in Nero-style power orgies whilst Rome (or should I say Athens) burns.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Absolutely right. But that's a small amount of people. most executive pay isn't in those leagues at all. I agree, earning a few million a year is absurd. But six figures is not a few million.

And secondly..... Ironic that your two sources are from such a bunch of dicks... Daily mail and Sky !!!

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And secondly..... Ironic that your two sources are from such a bunch of dicks... Daily mail and Sky !!!

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I actually deliberately picked those out of the pageful of Google hits I got, to demonstrate that my ideas are not the exclusive domain of neo-leninist constitutional peasant!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

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Quote narcoman:

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Right. So businesses just run themselves do they? investment just places itself? it's all well and good having an point on a payment strategy or investment. But it is just nuts beyond belief to belittle the structures needed to operate in the capital world we inhabit. Get those decisions wrong and it fucks a business, and jobs, and people and economics.

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Er, you obviously hadn't noticed, but they DO regularly get them wrong. And it has [ ****** ] the entire economy. The people responsible haven't had aneurisms, just bonuses.

The fact that this executive class have increasingly been allowed to wallow around in a pampered platinum-plated fantasy world has not led to them "getting the best people for the job", it's instead lead to a load of reckless coke-snorting loons who are utterly divorced from reality just wanking around in Nero-style power orgies whilst Rome (or should I say Athens) burns.

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Yes but we only get to HEAR about the [ ****** ] ups. nobody ever reports on a good decisions do they? every job that exists is from a correct ( from that point of view) corporate decision.

Put it this way, yes there are dicks flouncing around who were Ill fits for the job. but there are more people who are adequate or better at there job at ALL levels. I've worked with guys on factory floors who were the biggest tossers I've ever met. I've worked with directors of companies who were also big tossers. you cant pick your social or economic class for tossers.

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Absolutely right. But that's a small amount of people. most executive pay isn't in those leagues at all. I agree, earning a few million a year is absurd. But six figures is not a few million.

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This thread started in response to a top brass of PRS getting half a million. PRS "for music" is just brilliant, isn't it? Thank god they were able to attract people of that calibre so run it, otherwise christ knows what it would be like
(as Derek & Clive wisely noted in "Back of the Cab", 'Christ - if that's the peerage... what's the House of Commons like?!?")

Here's another suggestion though: instead of paying Alesha in Streatham £6.50 an hour to take 9 months to fail to process my MCPS back claim,
why not pay the directors a wee bit less and the admin staff a bit more? Hmmm?

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Now that I agree with and shows poor decision making within the PRS. The PRS is a pretty bad organisation with nobody working the ropes correctly at all. However, a company with 900 employees turning over £80million a year would pay its CEO rather more than half a mill including pension. Is an unattractive job for most, you can't win, and the mobile opportunities pretty much stop there. The PRS can't attract the right catalysing top brass, they tend to get the money ringers.....

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every job that exists is from a correct ( from that point of view) corporate decision.

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Er yeah. From a wrong point of view.
In actual fact, without wanting to get all marxist on your 'ass", the jobs more usually exist because of the labour and skill of the workers and their intellectual achievements.
Occasionally you might get a start-up where the CEO dreamt up the entire endeavour and could be considered his brainchild... but usually they just swan in for a couple of years, riding on the back of some guy who wrote all the code and has worked their for 27, etc etc.

Quote:

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but there are more people who are adequate or better at there job at ALL levels. I've worked with guys on factory floors who were the biggest tossers I've ever met. I've worked with directors of companies who were also big tossers. you cant pick your social or economic class for tossers.

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Of course. But if someone's only getting £6.20 an hour and their job is just to stand in a factory all day lifting plastic bits off a conveyor belt and putting them in a box, they can toss all they like, I really won't begrudge them for it.

Don't agree with the first part at all. jobs exist because somebody is prepared to put risk into place to develop an idea into a reality. The workers skill or intellect is merely one of many assets require to make a company flourish.

As for the second part... I worked from the age of 16 to 19 on a factory floor for basic wage assembling large scale batteries. I drank too much, a [ ****** ] about a lot, but I worked and worked properly. the lazy fuckers pissing about caused the rest of us problems. I saw lazy Dave as a far bigger areoli than my tit head boss or the owner of the company.

I'm begining to wish I hadn't mentioned it.

Personally I have no problem with people who create wealth taking a proportionate chunk of it for themselves.

PRS is not exactly a conventional business though. They exist to collect other peoples dues and distribute it to them, and they do it quite badly. So extracting that much of other peoples money seems to me like taking the mickey.

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I've never liked a solo violin, you need at least five for a proper fire.

In this instance I agree. Their mandate isn't to make profit ( and they make very little). So it seems that they shouldn't really be structured like they are. The catch is, how do you attract the right seniors without operating somewhat like a traditional corporate.


It's been a good discussion.

I do not know how you came to be possessed by the ghost of Norman Tebbit tonight - I mean he's not even dead yet!

What on earth does it mean to say that jobs only exist if rich people are preparted to "invest" in them? You're touting some bizarre concept of money whereby its a real physical quantity and a man with a wheelbarrow full of gold bullion makes everything happen.

Money is contract between people in a society. We agree to engage in whatever activity on the premise we'll be remunerated and be able to spend it on something else. Implicit in this concept is that both parties have to agree to it. Workers have to agree to be employed. They do not "need" some bank computer to put numbers in their account in order for their brains or muscles to work. And the labour and intellect have to come first - you can't pay people to be smart, or to be strong - if they're stupid and weak, they'll still be even if you give them some gold. I mean come on, this is just basic economics! Text book stuff.
Your spin on it makes about as much sense as a guitar string that's only fixed at one end. Or a mains plug with only the live wire connected.

In the case of PRS, the important thing is that people write good songs first! Will I write better songs if the CEO of PRS is paid half a million quid a year? WILL I???

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Yes you will.


Of course, and those are basic economic concepts. But basic concepts are not enought to explain how a modern economy or job status operates. I didn't say anything about rich people, I said jobs ( as in paid to work) come from the instigation end, the investment cycle. They do not come from the people getting together ( the socialist ideal I fancy left this world before it was ever given a formal definition ).

Ideas alone do nothing. I know a lot of people with great ideas.... But withouth fiscal investiture they just do not happen. They are neither developed nor entered into market. And one can and does buy intellect and ideas. That's the whole point.

Well I do not have concrete figures in front of me, but I suspect you are wrong:
I would wager that the majority of economic activity and "wealth creation" in Britain comes from exploiting existing capital and expertise and assets that have been built up over CENTURIES. It was not suddenly stimulated by philanthropic millionaires swanning in and pepping us all up with their "investment".
HINT: economic activity has not increased 4000% over the past 30 years. Which we might expect it to have done, if "outstanding executive directors" were somehow the dominating driving factor.